JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on September 02, 2025, 05:56:26 PM
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Ruth Paine passed away Sunday evening.
Her son Chris sent me an email early this morning.
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Ruth Paine passed away Sunday evening.
Her son Chris sent me an email early this morning.
I read it first from Freda and then came here and posted it. I soon deleted it. After seeing your post on TBT, I knew that you'd soon be posting it here. Ruth took a lot of abuse over the years from many in the CT camp. She seem to hold up quite well against it though. May she sleep well.
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Me with Ruth in 2023 at Tenth & Patton...
(https://i.imgur.com/oGs9kwMm.jpg)
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I read it first from Freda and then came here and posted it. I soon deleted it. After seeing your post on TBT, I knew that you'd soon be posting it here. Ruth took a lot of abuse over the years from many in the CT camp. She seem to hold up quite well against it though. May she sleep well.
Maligned unjustly.
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Ruth Paine passed away Sunday evening.
Her son Chris sent me an email early this morning.
I remember from probably about the same era as the JFK assassination a couple of older ladies complimenting my grandmother by telling a few of us grandkids that my grandmother would go straight to heaven when she passed away. My grandmother wasn’t ill or anything. And she lived a long time after this happened. The two ladies were just saying, in their own way, how much they admired and respected my grandmother. Anyway, even though I have never met her in person, this is what Ruth Payne’s passing reminded me of. I feel like I knew her from just reading about her and her actions and apparent intents.
RIP Ruth Payne
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I'm very sorry to hear that news. She seemed like a very intelligent and kind person. If there was anyone in history for whom the saying "no good deed goes unpunished" it was Ruth Paine. Opening her home to strangers like Oswald and his family only to get caught up in this event. I once mailed her a copy of "Mrs. Paine's Garage" and she graciously signed it and returned it to me. She certainly led a long and interesting life.
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I'm very sorry to hear that news. She seemed like a very intelligent and kind person. If there was anyone in history for whom the saying "no good deed goes unpunished" it was Ruth Paine. Opening her home to strangers like Oswald and his family only to get caught up in this event. I once mailed her a copy of "Mrs. Paine's Garage" and she graciously signed it and returned it to me. She certainly led a long and interesting life.
Ever since I became a Lone Gunman Advocate around 2016, I've wondered if she or her husband knew Oswald's mentor, George DeMohrenschild, whom a CIA Counterintelligence analyst by the name of Clare Edward Petty determined, by reading some WW II VENONA decrypts in the early 1970s, was very probably a long-term KGB "illegal."
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The demonizing of Ruth Paine was to me always one of the most despicable things about the CT community. She seemed so completely decent, open and honest that the effort to cast her as a dark and sinister character just seemed (and seems) flat-out insane to me. All of it says far more about the lunacy within some segments of the CT community than it ever said about Ruth. As Richard says, she epitomized the truism that no good deed goes unpunished. I hope that perhaps she could find humor in it and perhaps even enjoyed her curious fame.
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https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/ruth-paine-r-i-p-1932-2025 (https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/ruth-paine-r-i-p-1932-2025)
Ruth Paine, R.I.P. (1932 - 2025)
It was very sad to learn that Ruth Paine died on Sunday. She was a admirable woman whose only crime was being nice. She will long be remembered for her grace, her honesty, and her friendliness.
Unfortunately, she has been badly maligned by conspiracy theorists.
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Thanks for the mention in your article Fred. Remarkable woman who tried to help others and was unfairly maligned as others have said.
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Ruth Paine was instrumental in setting up Oswald as the patsy. As a 21-year veteran of military intelligence, my curiosity about Paine was sparked when I learned that she studied Russian at the Middlebury Language School. Intelligence agencies frequently sent people to Middlebury to learn foreign languages in the school's language-immersion program, and Middlebury was very expensive. In the 1990s, I was slated to attend Middlebury but then my battalion's training budget got cut and my slot had to be cancelled. As many here probably already know, Ruth Paine had a wide range of intelligence connections, as did her husband.
On the day of the assassination, barely 30 minutes after the shooting, Michael Paine called his home to talk to Ruth. Among other things, he said he thought Oswald was the shooter but didn't think Oswald was the one who was responsible for JFK's death, and then he added, "We both know who is responsible" (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 83, p. 75). Mind you, Oswald had not even been arrested yet.
Some recommended articles on Ruth Paine's role in the JFK case:
https://www.jfkpaine.com/the-story/
https://aarclibrary.org/the-jfk-case-the-twelve-who-built-the-oswald-legend-part-11-the-paines-carry-the-weight/
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/the-assassination-and-mrs-paine-part-1
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/the-assassination-and-mrs-paine-part-2
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/our-lady-of-the-warren-commission-part-1-2
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/our-lady-of-the-warren-commission-part-2-2
http://22november1963.org.uk/george-de-mohrenschildt-i-am-a-patsy
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-part-5#_nref1
Some recommended videos on her involvement in maneuvering Oswald to be the fall guy:
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The demonizing of Ruth Paine was to me always one of the most despicable things about the CT community. She seemed so completely decent, open and honest that the effort to cast her as a dark and sinister character just seemed (and seems) flat-out insane to me. All of it says far more about the lunacy within some segments of the CT community than it ever said about Ruth. As Richard says, she epitomized the truism that no good deed goes unpunished. I hope that perhaps she could find humor in it and perhaps even enjoyed her curious fame.
Couldn't agree more, Lance. It's one of the worst examples of idiotic conspiratorial thinking in this case.
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Ruth Paine was instrumental in setting up Oswald as the patsy.
Complete, utter nonsense. She was a kind-hearted housewife who took the Oswalds in during a dire time of need. Gotta say.. I applaud your discrediting of Fletcher Prouty but you sure do believe in every other outlandish conspiracy in this case (every piece of medical evidence altered, the Babushka lady shooting JFK), don't ya?
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I was very much saddened by the news that Ruth Paine had passed away on August 31st, 2025, just three days before her 93rd birthday. Among all the people who have ever been associated in some way with the events of November 1963, I liked and admired Ruth the most. In her many interviews and public appearances since '63 (several of which can be found at the link below), Ruth always seemed very genuine and honest and forthright. I will miss her.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EJ-Pp2GRv1E/T2vtMvSMq-I/AAAAAAAAGtM/YO3YBkmWWeQ/s710/Ruth-Paine-Videos-Logo.png) (http://dvp-video-audio-archive.blogspot.com/2012/03/ruth-paine.html)
Also See:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEizgj3GI0J2b82_1a1eXWI0q3NPbwgMTINEZ4Dm1_o83fDiU5pN7qblhJlFDR-Lh7W-6UuPCIDyrKkQDstTtFP2xn-0KyfBhFNN4vAQPG_DfEUoLrzwEN0wg7eRZ1YbnERj5bLV00C8_PbLoXOGk3qSC_Hk7zxQqW6GT45wl1wAXt11V1TjZ5bCY2_F/s710/Defending-Ruth-Paine-Logo.jpg) (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/04/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-87.html)
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Ruth Paine was instrumental in setting up Oswald as the patsy. As a 21-year veteran of military intelligence, my curiosity about Paine was sparked when I learned that she studied Russian at the Middlebury Language School. Intelligence agencies frequently sent people to Middlebury to learn foreign languages in the school's language-immersion program, and Middlebury was very expensive. In the 1990s, I was slated to attend Middlebury but then my battalion's training budget got cut and my slot had to be cancelled. As many here probably already know, Ruth Paine had a wide range of intelligence connections, as did her husband.
On the day of the assassination, barely 30 minutes after the shooting, Michael Paine called his home to talk to Ruth. Among other things, he said he thought Oswald was the shooter but didn't think Oswald was the one who was responsible for JFK's death, and then he added, "We both know who is responsible" (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 83, p. 75). Mind you, Oswald had not even been arrested yet.
Some recommended articles on Ruth Paine's role in the JFK case:
https://www.jfkpaine.com/the-story/
https://aarclibrary.org/the-jfk-case-the-twelve-who-built-the-oswald-legend-part-11-the-paines-carry-the-weight/
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/the-assassination-and-mrs-paine-part-1
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/the-assassination-and-mrs-paine-part-2
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/our-lady-of-the-warren-commission-part-1-2
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/our-lady-of-the-warren-commission-part-2-2
http://22november1963.org.uk/george-de-mohrenschildt-i-am-a-patsy
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-part-5#_nref1
Some recommended videos on her involvement in maneuvering Oswald to be the fall guy:
Comrade Griffith,
One wonders if she or her husband knew Oswald's mentor, George DeMohrenschildt, whom a CIA Counterintelligence analyst by the name of Clare Edward Petty determined, by reading some WW II VENONA decrypts in the early 1970s, was very probably a long-term KGB "illegal."
-- Tom
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Kind of an interesting counterpoint was provided at the Ed Forum this morning. A thread about Ruth's death appeared directly above a now-5-page thread about the passing of Sandy Larsen. The majority of the comments about Ruth are in the vein of Michael's over-the-top lunacy. With Sandy, however, even Jimbo agrees we have lost a sagacious JFKA statesman of the first magnitude. Because I like to think I have a bit more class than Michael, I will merely point out that Sandy, may he RIP, was a Harvey & Lee enthusiast who insisted he had proved - proved I tell you - that the body exhumed in 1981 was not Oswald.
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Kind of an interesting counterpoint was provided at the Ed Forum this morning. A thread about Ruth's death appeared directly above a now-5-page thread about the passing of Sandy Larsen. The majority of the comments about Ruth are in the vein of Michael's over-the-top lunacy. With Sandy, however, even Jimbo agrees we have lost a sagacious JFKA statesman of the first magnitude. Because I like to think I have a bit more class than Michael, I will merely point out that Sandy, may he RIP, was a Harvey & Lee enthusiast who insisted he had proved - proved I tell you - that the body exhumed in 1981 was not Oswald.
And that the evil, evil CIA sent a never-identified short, blond-haired, skinny, 30-something, very-thin-faced agent to Mexico City to impersonate KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov (whom I identified about ten years ago as "The Blond Oswald In Mexico City") so that the CIA (or at least I) could later claim that Leonov was the short, blond-haired, skinny, 30-something, very-thin-faced "Oswald" who had visited the Cuban Consulate on 27 September 1963 (and maybe even on Saturday the 28th!) in a vain attempt to get a transit visa to Cuba, and thereby incriminate Fidel Castro and/or world-class humanitarian Nikita Khrushchev for the assassination.
In other words, Larsen believed that the CIA was so evil, evil, evil that it impersonated impersonators!
Such is the caliber of the so-called "JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum."
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Kind of an interesting counterpoint was provided at the Ed Forum this morning. A thread about Ruth's death appeared directly above a now-5-page thread about the passing of Sandy Larsen. The majority of the comments about Ruth are in the vein of Michael's over-the-top lunacy. With Sandy, however, even Jimbo agrees we have lost a sagacious JFKA statesman of the first magnitude. Because I like to think I have a bit more class than Michael, I will merely point out that Sandy, may he RIP, was a Harvey & Lee enthusiast who insisted he had proved - proved I tell you - that the body exhumed in 1981 was not Oswald.
Re Mr. Larsen: When it was pointed out that Ruth Paine learned about a possible job opening at the TSBD from Linnie Mae Randle who, in turn, had heard about it from her brother Buell Frazier (who had gotten a job there several months before), Mr. Larsen simply amended his theory to include Randle and Frazier in his CIA accomplices who had set up Oswald. In fact, he said the entire TSBD was a CIA front business.
Classic textbook conspiracy thinking: If your explanation doesn't make sense, isn't correct, simply add another layer of conspiracies to straighten it out. The ancient Greek tragedists used to use a "deus ex machina" - a god (or gods) entering a story - to untangle any plot problems; conspiracists have "the CIA."
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If Frazier doesn't get the job (through an employment agency) at the TSBD then Randle doesn't know about it. She can't tell Ruth Paine about any possible opening since she learned about it through Frazier (her brother).
If Randle forgets about the job then Ruth Paine doesn't know about it. Or if Frazier is fired, quits, finds a new job, et cetera.
If Roy Truly takes the call from Ruth Paine and says there are no job openings then Oswald doesn't get the job. If Oswald isn't interested, he doesn't get the job. If he has a poor interview he doesn't get the job. If he quits, gets fired (he had a history of this), then he has no job there.
All of these factors/possibilities (and more) are uncontrollable, are beyond the capabilities of humans to control. We all recognize it.
But in conspiracy world such matters are waved away. "The CIA", the "Deep State", the "them" and "they" are capable of anything. We continue to think we can reason with people who think like this. We can't.
Tracy Parnell goes over this in greater detail here: https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Assassination%20and%20Mrs.%20Paine
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If Frazier doesn't get the job (through an employment agency) at the TSBD then Randle doesn't know about it. She can't tell Ruth Paine about any possible opening since she learned about it through Frazier (her brother).
If Randle forgets about the job then Ruth Paine doesn't know about it. Or if Frazier is fired, quits, finds a new job, et cetera.
If Roy Truly takes the call from Ruth Paine and says there are no job openings then Oswald doesn't get the job. If Oswald isn't interested, he doesn't get the job. If he has a poor interview he doesn't get the job. If he quits, gets fired (he had a history of this), then he has no job there.
All of these factors/possibilities (and more) are uncontrollable, are beyond the capabilities of humans to control. We all recognize it.
But in conspiracy world such matters are waved away. "The CIA", the "Deep State", the "them" and "they" are capable of anything. We continue to think we can reason with people who think like this. We can't.
Tracy Parnell goes over this in greater detail here: https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Assassination%20and%20Mrs.%20Paine
Excellent post, Steven. The level of ignorance on that Education Forum thread is really astounding, including the new moderator insisting that Ruth "framed Oswald for murder." As for Sandy Larsen's nonsense theories and reign of terror as a moderator, the less said, the better.
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Have any of the CTers added Ruth Paine to their list of "mysterious deaths"? It took a long while, but the death squad apparently got to her before she could talk. She was next on the list after Clint Hill.
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Have any of the CTers added Ruth Paine to their list of "mysterious deaths"? It took a long while, but the death squad apparently got to her before she could talk. She was next on the list after Clint Hill.
She goes to Central America in the 1980s to protest US policies in the region. She's very critical of the CIA and support for the Contras; she works with her church group to aid the campesinos in Nicaragua; she withholds some of her "war" taxes in protest to those policies.
This (and much more) shows she is not someone who would conspire with essentially fascists in a coup of JFK.
What's the conspiracy response? That is, those conspiracists who think she helped frame Oswald? Well, she was still undercover, she was pretending to hold anti-CIA views and besides she went there to spy for "Langley." She was still an active CIA asset. So in conspiracy world the evidence that she was a liberal/leftist and not someone who would join up with neo-fascists/militarists is evidence that she actually wasn't a liberal/leftist and would join up with them. Up is down and down is up.
To put it differently: We have a film of the assassination, an autopsy was performed, there are photos and x-rays, the Connallys said they were hit with blood and brain matter from the shot (how could a back of the head blowout cause that?) and STILL they insist the wound was in the rear of JFK's head not the top/side. We are supposed to ignore this physical evidence? Yes, because evidence that it was on the top/side of the head - and not another shooter - is evidence that it was in the back and that there was another shooter.
It's hopeless trying to reason with this mindset.
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My impression of Ms. Paine is a very poor one- It is strange but not surprising to see how benignly she is treated in the general media- I would like to know if she was ever asked how She and Marina got the rifle back from New Orleans in her car but neither of them never noticed it? And Yes, she can pretend that she didnt say to the Police at her door step on the afternoon of 11.22.63 that she was expecting them but all of the responding officers know she said it .... Amazing that every critical piece of evidence of a lone nut assassin touched Ruths hands-
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I was hoping there would be one brave lone nutter who would take a crack...
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That is a very willful distortion of the truth- Gosh
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My impression of Ms. Paine is a very poor one- It is strange but not surprising to see how benignly she is treated in the general media- I would like to know if she was ever asked how She and Marina got the rifle back from New Orleans in her car but neither of them never noticed it? And Yes, she can pretend that she didnt say to the Police at her door step on the afternoon of 11.22.63 that she was expecting them but all of the responding officers know she said it .... Amazing that every critical piece of evidence of a lone nut assassin touched Ruths hands-
Which Sock Puppet are you? Isn't it just a bit odd that several characters are suddenly appearing with a level of hostility seemingly out of proportion for a newbie? You may want to rethink your avatar, or people will confuse you with Dan O'Meara - never a good thing. And don't choose a laughing cat, Binnie, or I'll claw your eyes out.
Michael Paine stumbled over the rifle and handled the bundle while thinking it was camping equipment, so why is it suspicious that Ruth and Marina didn't recognize what it was? Marina obviously knew it contained a rifle before she took the officers out to the garage. OK, Ruth did or didn't tell the officers she was expecting them: how is that suspicious; if she were a conspirator, wouldn't she logically have acted astonished to see them? I really don't understand what you are finding suspicious here.
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My impression of Ms. Paine is a very poor one- It is strange but not surprising to see how benignly she is treated in the general media- I would like to know if she was ever asked how She and Marina got the rifle back from New Orleans in her car but neither of them never noticed it? And Yes, she can pretend that she didnt say to the Police at her door step on the afternoon of 11.22.63 that she was expecting them but all of the responding officers know she said it .... Amazing that every critical piece of evidence of a lone nut assassin touched Ruths hands-
Okay, Mr. "Bill Binnie" (you conspiracy folks never stop): According to Ruth Paine and Marina it was Oswald himself who loaded the car for the trip to Ft. Worth. Ruth Paine had nothing to do with the rifle. She didn't, as you claim "touch it" (figuratively or literally).
Once back home, Michael Paine said he unloaded a blanket (rifle) he thought possibly held camping equipment into the garage. Ruth Paine had nothing to do with it.
Marina said she saw the blanket in the garage and moved it and noticed the rifle stock.
Shorter: None of the evidence of/for the rifle "touched Ruths hands." In fact, she testified that she knew nothing about it at all. If she was framing Oswald then why wouldn't she say she saw it? You have her "touching" the rifle but repeatedly saying she knew nothing about one.
Does that make sense? She's framing Oswald with ownership of the rifle but then never says anything about seeing that rifle? The one she's framing him with? If she's planting the rifle she's going to say she saw him with it. Otherwise it's worthless.
Question for you: Do you think this person below is a normal, well-adjusted man?
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8a9c72edb34e93f09cf97cba369a9430?rik=2eHE6XoultyViA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fmedia.gettyimages.com%2fphotos%2flee-harvey-oswald-holds-a-mannlichercarcano-rifle-and-newspapers-in-a-picture-id576877684%3fk%3d6%26m%3d576877684%26s%3d612x612%26w%3d0%26h%3dVXdRWcrdqXb2R5S4YgMfLftmPXlFBNEClBzB0Z6XCoo%3d&ehk=YyNGTfG4xDgACToWGKmW5cvXSPZb8xTmBWrZ5uPoMQQ%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
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Which Sock Puppet are you? Isn't just a bit odd that several characters are suddenly appearing with a level of hostility seemingly out of proportion for a newbie? You may want to rethink your avatar, or people will confuse you with Dan O'Meara - never a good thing. And don't choose a laughing cat, Binnie, or I'll claw your eyes out.
Michael Paine stumbled over the rifle and handled the bundle while thinking it was camping equipment, so why is it suspicious that Ruth and Marina didn't recognize what it was? Marina obviously knew it contained a rifle before she took the officers out to the garage. OK, Ruth did or didn't tell the officers she was expecting them: how is that suspicious; if she were a conspirator, wouldn't she logically have acted astonished to see them? I really don't understand what you are finding suspicious here.
Oswald loaded the car. Michael unloaded it. Marina said she saw the rifle (stock) in the garage. Ruth had nothing to do with the rifle.
If she's framing Oswald she would say she saw the rifle. She would say she saw him carrying a large package to work that November day. She would have said he expressed hatred towards JFK. That he was increasingly erratic and unstable. There's a not small list of things she could have said that would have implicated him. He's dead. He can't deny it.
But not only did she not say them she essentially said the opposite. No rifle, no anger, no hatred of JFK, no instability. So she framed Oswald with the rifle but then said she never saw or knew anything about a rifle. As Garrison explained to his fellow conspiracists, you must think up is down and down is up.
As to these sock puppet names: The conspiracy crowd has some good, decent people. And some very, very weird ones too.
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Max Good, the maker of "The Assassination and Mrs. Paine," posted a lukewarm statement about the passing of Ruth that concluded with:
I had a lot of respect for Ruth’s strength of character and her willingness to speak to people with different perspectives on the assassination. As I’ve said elsewhere, I sometimes suspected that she secretly wanted the truth to come out, but she was under such a burden that she couldn’t say anything too revealing.
As fate would have it, I read this morning a blog about conspiracy thinking at the website of the American Philosophical Association. The above quote from Max Good illustrates one of the points the author made. Conspiracy theories by their very nature are completely unfalsifiable because the goalposts just keep moving. Evidence contradicts the theory - voila, it was faked or planted. Testimony is contrary to the theory - voila, the conspirators got to the witness; it just shows how clever they were. The Klein's money order was found at the federal records center where processed money orders were stored (thank you, Lance) - voila, it was obviously planted there (thank you, Sandy Larsen). The goal posts just keep moving until you have so many conspirators, so much faked, planted and altered evidence, and so many convoluted twists and turns that the conspirators would have to have been Satan and his demons.
Ruth never wavered throughout 92 years of living. Nevertheless, now that she's gone we tell ourselves that she "secretly wanted to tell the truth" but was "under such a burden" that she "couldn't say anything too revealing." Voila, now she still fits right into our conspiracy theory, no problem.
What "truth"? What "burden"? At 80, 85, 90, 92? How about: She did tell the truth and was under no burden at all? Isn't that more plausible?
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Hostility ? You lone nutters are amusing - Like watching a poor drunk stumbling down a street - Lets get back to debate 101 like they taught in school and not float silly and ancillary information- Bottom Line is that a Lone Nutter needs to believe that the only way there is a crappy old carcano rifle in the Paine garage on November 21 is because Ruth and Marina drove home with it, took it out of the station wagon in Dallas and placed the bundle on the garage floor without a seconds thought of what it contained so they might know where and how it should be stored- After you are done here, tell me why Ruth told the the team of Officers at her door on the afternoon of 11.22.63 why she was expecting them- I am ready to be further amused Mr. Nutter-
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Hostility ? You lone nutters are amusing - Like watching a poor drunk stumbling down a street - Lets get back to debate 101 like they taught in school and not float silly and ancillary information- Bottom Line is that a Lone Nutter needs to believe that the only way there is a crappy old carcano rifle in the Paine garage on November 21 is because Ruth and Marina drove home with it, took it out of the station wagon in Dallas and placed the bundle on the garage floor without a seconds thought of what it contained so they might know where and how it should be stored- After you are done here, tell me why Ruth told the the team of Officers at her door on the afternoon of 11.22.63 why she was expecting them- I am ready to be further amused Mr. Nutter-
I personally don't need to believe that Oswald's Carcano was in the Paine garage on November 21. However, I have no doubt that it was. Why do you doubt that it was? Come up with a reasonable explanation for when and how Oswald got his rifle into the TSBD. Where did he keep it stored? When did he bring it into the TSBD?
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I assume you know all about the multiple versions ( a,b,c ,d, et al) of this photo and the very curcuitous paths they each travelled? Did you ever wonder why the clothes the man is wearing in these photos were not among Oswalds belongings? Oswald was not a slave to fashion and these duds must have cost the perpetually broke Oswald dearly- Marina said he did not have clothes like the man in the picture- Weird, dont ya think? You lone nutters will have to work overtime on the disinformation for this one-
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I personally don't need to believe that Oswald's Carcano was in the Paine garage on November 21. However, I have no doubt that it was. Why do you doubt that it was? Come up with a reasonable explanation for when and how Oswald got his rifle into the TSBD. Where did he keep it stored? When did he bring it into the TSBD?
I personally don't need to believe that Oswald's Carcano was in the Paine garage on November 21.
Really?
However, I have no doubt that it was.
Really? Based on what evidence?
Why do you doubt that it was?
Huh? Perhaps, because there is not a shred of evidence that it was. Does that make sense to you?
Come up with a reasonable explanation for when and how Oswald got his rifle into the TSBD.
Why? Do you have any reasonable evidence that Oswald ever "got his rifle into the TSBD"?
Where did he keep it stored?
What makes you think that he stored a rifle at any location?
When did he bring it into the TSBD?
What makes you think he brought a rifle into the TSBD?
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I personally don't need to believe that Oswald's Carcano was in the Paine garage on November 21. However, I have no doubt that it was. Why do you doubt that it was? Come up with a reasonable explanation for when and how Oswald got his rifle into the TSBD. Where did he keep it stored? When did he bring it into the TSBD?
?? Where do you think the carcano rifle was? Buried at Love field the entire time? I dont doubt a rifle was there- I DOUBT Ruth Paine had no clue about a rifle is my position- Since I dont think Oswald brought a rifle anywhere on 11.22.63 dont think he shot anyone, since the sixth floor shooter used a mauser rifle, your other postulations are irrelavant to me-
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I personally don't need to believe that Oswald's Carcano was in the Paine garage on November 21.
Really?
Really.
However, I have no doubt that it was.
Really? Based on what evidence?
Based on the testimony of Marina Oswald.
Why do you doubt that it was?
Huh? Perhaps, because there is not a shred of evidence that it was. Does that make sense to you?
See above.
Come up with a reasonable explanation for when and how Oswald got his rifle into the TSBD.
Why? Do you have any reasonable evidence that Oswald ever "got his rifle into the TSBD"?
His rifle was found there.
Where did he keep it stored?
What makes you think that he stored a rifle at any location?
Marina said he did.
When did he bring it into the TSBD?
What makes you think he brought a rifle into the TSBD?
His rifle was found there.
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?? Where do you think the carcano rifle was? Buried at Love field the entire time? I dont doubt a rifle was there- I DOUBT Ruth Paine had no clue about a rifle is my position- Since I dont think Oswald brought a rifle anywhere on 11.22.63 dont think he shot anyone, since the sixth floor shooter used a mauser rifle, your other postulations are irrelavant to me-
Are you really that new with this stuff or are you a moron?
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I assume you know all about the multiple versions ( a,b,c ,d, et al) of this photo and the very curcuitous paths they each travelled? Did you ever wonder why the clothes the man is wearing in these photos were not among Oswalds belongings? Oswald was not a slave to fashion and these duds must have cost the perpetually broke Oswald dearly- Marina said he did not have clothes like the man in the picture- Weird, dont ya think? You lone nutters will have to work overtime on the disinformation for this one-
Photo? You mean the backyard photos. There are three of them that were preserved. I don't care that the clothes he had on were not among his belongings. Why should I? The photos themselves were confirmed as being authentic and unaltered by the HSCA 21 member panel of photographic analysis experts. Marina has always maintained that she took them.
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Photo? You mean the backyard photos. There are three of them that were preserved. I don't care that the clothes he had on were not among his belongings. Why should I? The photos themselves were confirmed as being authentic and unaltered by the HSCA 21 member panel of photographic analysis experts. Marina has always maintained that she took them.
I totally agree- You are in the lone nutter cult of myopic lunacy so why would you care that the very very dubious nature of the backyard photos show a man wearing clothes that Oswald did not possess rendering the pictures a very poorly constructed prop for any researcher with a cult free perspective- Yes there are 70 million people who tell us trump is a great president- This is a long way from making it so-
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Are you really that new with this stuff or are you a moron?
Explain the parts of my statements that are moronic- I am prepared to be amused by your all knowing and superlative skills oh oracle of truth-
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I totally agree- You are in the lone nutter cult of myopic lunacy so why would you care that the very very dubious nature of the backyard photos show a man wearing clothes that Oswald did not possess rendering the pictures a very poorly constructed prop for any researcher with a cult free perspective- Yes there are 70 million people who tell us trump is a great president- This is a long way from making it so-
The very fact that Oswald is wearing those clothes in the photos is proof that he possessed them.
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explain the parts of my statements that are moronic- I am prepared to be amused by your all knowing and superlative skills oh oracle of truth-
"the sixth floor shooter used a mauser rifle," -Bill Binnie
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I totally agree- You are in the lone nutter cult of myopic lunacy so why would you care that the very very dubious nature of the backyard photos show a man wearing clothes that Oswald did not possess rendering the pictures a very poorly constructed prop for any researcher with a cult free perspective- Yes there are 70 million people who tell us trump is a great president- This is a long way from making it so-
Whichever Sock Puppet you are, Binnie my lad - and on the same thread on which Puppet Master Martin reappears, no less! - one does not get the feeling that we are in for what I would call "substantive" contributions. Can't we at least be treated to a higher class of Sock Puppet, Martin? And there was another one yesterday - Sven or Swen or something like that. What is the game here? At least have the Sock Puppets do some creative things like argue vehemently with each other. Wouldn't that be more fun for everyone? When newbies appear and seem to be instantly consumed with rage at the "myopic lunacy" of the "lone nutter cult," it's rather obvious that there is a backstory. Perhaps I'll create my own little menagerie of Sock Puppets to show you how it could be done more creatively - but I'll call them Lance 2, Lance 3 and whatnot so it will be obvious this is just a training exercise for amateurs like Martin.
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Whichever Sock Puppet you are, Binnie my lad - and on the same thread on which Puppet Master Martin reappears, no less! - one does not get the feeling that we are in for what I would call "substantive" contributions. Can't we at least be treated to a higher class of Sock Puppet, Martin? And there was another one yesterday - Sven or Swen or something like that. What is the game here? At least have the Sock Puppets do some creative things like argue vehemently with each other. Wouldn't that be more fun for everyone? When newbies appear and seem to be instantly consumed with rage at the "myopic lunacy" of the "lone nutter cult," it's rather obvious that there is a backstory. Perhaps I'll create my own little menagerie of Sock Puppets to show you how it could be done more creatively - but I'll call them Lance 2, Lance 3 and whatnot so it will be obvious this is just a training exercise for amateurs like Martin.
He tried "Pimply Bum" but Duncan caught him.
His argument here is that they didn't find the clothes Oswald was wearing when the photos were taken seven months earlier therefore the photos are faked. He doesn't believe all of the other evidence on the authenticity of the photos - Marina's testimony, the camera, the photographic analysis, the DeMohrenschildt's being a given a photo at the time - but he would apparently believe they were authentic if they simply found those darned clothes. Yes he would.
Gosh, he wouldn't say the clothes were planted or anything. No he wouldn't. Even though the other evidence is waived away.
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Have any of the CTers added Ruth Paine to their list of "mysterious deaths"? It took a long while, but the death squad apparently got to her before she could talk. She was next on the list after Clint Hil
Don't forget Paul 'I found the bullet' Landis. They should put him in witness protection.
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Don't forget Paul 'I found the bullet' Landis. They should put him in witness protection.
Yes!
They can probably find him at "The Cellar" around 5 AM.
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I take it no one's going to try to explain how Michael Paine could have told Ruth Paine that he was "sure" Oswald had killed JFK when he called Ruth from work at 1:00 PM on 11/22, when Oswald had not even been arrested yet. How in the world would Michael Paine have even suspected, much less been certain, that Oswald had shot JFK before Oswald was even arrested, especially since both he and Ruth later claimed they were shocked when they learned that Oswald had been charged with JFK's murder?
The FBI's own report on its investigation of the phone call informs us (1) that the records of the Southwestern States Telephone company show only one call between Michael's work and the Paine home between November 22-26, the 11/22 call, and (2) that Ruth herself admitted the call occurred at 1:00 PM, some 50 minutes before Oswald was even arrested.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111186#relPageId=124&search=investigation_regarding alleged telephone call
During this phone call, Michael told Ruth that he was certain Oswald had killed Kennedy but that Oswald was not responsible for the assassination, adding "we both know who is responsible." Again, this was some 50 minutes before Oswald was even arrested.
Everywhere you look in the life of the Paines, you find intelligence connections.
Take, for example, Naushon Island, a hangout of Allen Dulles's mistress and spy Mary Bancroft. Ruth visited the island and then stopped to see her CIA-connected sister in Virginia shortly before driving back cross-country to pick up Marina in New Orleans. Wow, what a coincidence.
Ruth claimed that she found the Kostin letter when she was moving her desk. However, Chris Newton has proved with photographic evidence that the Ruth's couch and desk were in the same position on 11/9 and 11/10 as they were on 11/23. Ruth lied in order to establish a pretext for picking up the letter.
Michael Paine told Dan Rather in 1993 that he saw one of the infamous backyard rifle photos in April 1963! He claimed that Oswald proudly showed him one of the photos when he picked him up for dinner. Humm, why didn't he say anything about this to the FBI or the WC?
Long after the assassination, in the 1980s, Ruth showed up at Sue Wheaton’s council meetings of the anti-Contra group in Nicaragua, of which Ruth's group Pro-Nica was not a member. Wheaton noticed that Ruth was taking down information about individuals and groups in attendance. Ruth “studied the bulletin board there, copying everything on it. . . . Also she made reference to people she knew in the U. S. Embassy.” Wheaton added that Ruth would show up with two men who would make tape recordings and take pictures. Ruth claimed they were authorized by the Nicaragua Network to take photos, but when this was checked, the claim turned out to be false. IOW, Ruth was still doing surveillance work for the CIA in the 1980s.
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I take it no one's going to try to explain how Michael Paine could have told Ruth Paine that he was "sure" Oswald had killed JFK when he called Ruth from work at 1:00 PM on 11/22, when Oswald had not even been arrested yet. How in the world would Michael Paine have even suspected, much less been certain, that Oswald had shot JFK before Oswald was even arrested, especially since both he and Ruth later claimed they were shocked when they learned that Oswald had been charged with JFK's murder?
This factoid - and make no mistake, it is a factoid - is beaten to death and beyond at an Ed Forum thread in which Greg Doudna, Max Good, Bill Simpich and numerous others participate: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27706-the-timing-and-content-of-the-we-both-know-who-was-responsible-phone-call-of-ruth-and-michael-paine/page/5/.
I am not going to rehash it here, but there is no certainty that Michael made any comment like this. The subject call was a collect call from Michael to Ruth, the alleged comment (attributed to a "male voice") was reported by an unidentified someone with the telephone company (probably the operator) to Paul Barger at the Irving PD (who said the source was a telephone lineman). The exact time is unknown, but the testimony of Michael's coworker Krystinik would suggest it was possibly after Oswald's arrest and certainly after the TSBD had been mentioned on the news. (FWIW, Bill Simpich argues on that thread that the comment attributed to Michael was actually invented by an intelligence operative!)
All I will add is that I recently watched the first three hours of news coverage by WFAA-TV in Dallas. It is fascinating to watch this unfold in real time, long before it was even known that JFK had died. I was surprised at how early in the coverage a crude map of Dealey Plaza was drawn on a chalkboard in the studio and then how soon a photo of the TSBD with the reporter pointing to the sixth-floor window was shown. The TSBD is clearly shown at 1:42 below, which was a mere 2 hours and 4 minutes after JFK was shot (because we know exactly when Zapruder went on the air) and the chalkboard is nearly an hour earlier, at 42:45.
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This factoid - and make no mistake, it is a factoid - is beaten to death and beyond at an Ed Forum thread in which Greg Doudna, Max Good, Bill Simpich and numerous others participate: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27706-the-timing-and-content-of-the-we-both-know-who-was-responsible-phone-call-of-ruth-and-michael-paine/page/5/.
I am not going to rehash it here, but there is no certainty that Michael made any comment like this. The subject call was a collect call from Michael to Ruth, the alleged comment (attributed to a "male voice") was reported by an unidentified someone with the telephone company (probably the operator) to Paul Barger at the Irving PD (who said the source was a telephone lineman). The exact time is unknown, but the testimony of Michael's coworker Krystinik would suggest it was possibly after Oswald's arrest and certainly after the TSBD had been mentioned on the news. (FWIW, Bill Simpich argues on that thread that the comment attributed to Michael was actually invented by an intelligence operative!)
All I will add is that I recently watched the first three hours of news coverage by WFAA-TV in Dallas. It is fascinating to watch this unfold in real time, long before it was even known that JFK had died. I was surprised at how early in the coverage a crude map of Dealey Plaza was drawn on a chalkboard in the studio and then how soon a photo of the TSBD with the reporter pointing to the sixth-floor window was shown. The TSBD is clearly shown at 1:42 below, which was a mere 2 hours and 4 minutes after JFK was shot (because we know exactly when Zapruder went on the air) and the chalkboard is nearly an hour earlier, at 42:45.
Umm, again, (1) Ruth Paine herself told the FBI that the call occurred at 1:00 PM. So the fact that news footage showed the TSBD at 1:42 is irrelevant.
(2) The phone company records prove the call was made by Michael Paine to Ruth's residence, because he made the call collect.
I linked the FBI report in my reply. Did you not read it?
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Really.
Based on the testimony of Marina Oswald.
And what in her testimony places the rifle found at the TSBD in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/21/63? Am I missing something here?
See above.
Where in her testimony did Marina say exactly that the rifle she saw in late September, actually belonged to LHO and was the same one that was found at the TSBD?
Again, I could be missing something here, but all I could find was that she said she saw the wooden stock of a rifle wrapped in a blanket, about three weeks after leaving New Orleans (i.e. in late September 1963), and the record shows that she wasn't able to identify the MC rifle shown to her on Friday evening, just hours after the assassination.
So, she can't identify the rifle on 11/22/63, but she knows for sure it's the same one she saw in late September and she somehow knows it belongs to LHO. Huh? How does that work?
His rifle was found there.
His rifle? Really? But I'll play along; let's say it is indeed the MC rifle that Hidell ordered from Klein's and let's even assume that Marina did indeed see that same rifle in Ruth Paine's garage in late September, how does that justify the conclusion that Oswald brought that rifle into the TSBD? Let me guess, you somehow know for certain what was in the paper bag Oswald was carrying, right?
Marina said he did.
Did she? You really are easy to please.
But sorry, that's really non sequitur. First of all, Marina was no expert on rifles and only saw the wooden stock of a rifle wrapped in a blanket once in late September 1963. At least that's what she said. We have no way to verify if that was true or not! She could have assumed that it was LHO's but assumption is not evidence. Also, we know for a fact that Marina was not able to identify the rifle when it was shown to her. So "Marina said he did" seems to be little more that speculative conjecture.
His rifle was found there.
See above. It might seem reasonable to assume that the alleged "owner" of any item would be the one who brought it to a particular location but even the best assumption isn't evidence that he did.
As I have said many times in the past, I'll gladly accept that Oswald kept his rifle in Ruth Paine's garage, collected it on 11/21/63 an took it to the TSBD the next day, when I am presented with actual evidence instead of mere assumptions and conjectures based upon the highly questionable statements of Marina Oswald.
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Even accepting the pedantic contrarian interpretation of Marina's testimony about the rifle, it proves the following:
1) LHO owned a rifle in the months leading up to the assassination.
2) He kept that rifle in Paine's garage.
3) It was missing on 11.22.63 when the police showed up and Marina directed them to the location that she expected them to find it.
4) There is no accounting for that rifle as any other than the one found in the TSBD.
What else do we know?
1) That if Oswald owned a rifle, he lied about such ownership when questioned about it by the police.
2) He ordered and was sent a rifle with a specific serial number.
3) A rifle with that same serial number was found in the TSBD. Oswald's place of employment.
4) Oswald's prints were on that rifle.
5) There is zero evidence that any person other than Oswald owned or possessed the rifle found in the TSBD in the months leading up to the assassination.
6) There is zero evidence that Oswald owned any other rifle than the one left in the TSBD.
7) Oswald was pictured with the rifle left at the TSBD.
All of this overwhelmingly links Oswald to a specific rifle and that rifle to the crime.
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Even accepting the pedantic contrarian interpretation of Marina's testimony about the rifle, it proves the following:
1) LHO owned a rifle in the months leading up to the assassination.
2) He kept that rifle in Paine's garage.
3) It was missing on 11.22.63 when the police showed up and Marina directed them to the location that she expected them to find it.
4) There is no accounting for that rifle as any other than the one found in the TSBD.
What else do we know?
1) That if Oswald owned a rifle, he lied about such ownership when questioned about it by the police.
2) He ordered and was sent a rifle with a specific serial number.
3) A rifle with that same serial number was found in the TSBD. Oswald's place of employment.
4) Oswald's prints were on that rifle.
5) There is zero evidence that any person other than Oswald owned or possessed the rifle found in the TSBD in the months leading up to the assassination.
6) There is zero evidence that Oswald owned any other rifle than the one left in the TSBD.
7) Oswald was pictured with the rifle left at the TSBD.
All of this overwhelmingly links Oswald to a specific rifle and that rifle to the crime.
Dear Richard,
Don't you realize the oodles and gobs of "Deep State" (as defined pre-Trump / pre-MAGA) operatives arranged all of those things to make it look as though the self-described Marxist and former Marine sharpshooter by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald did it?
-- Tom
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Dear Richard,
Don't you realize the oodles and gobs of "Deep State" (as defined pre-Trump / pre-MAGA) operatives arranged all of those things to make it look as though the self-described Marxist and former Marine sharpshooter by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald did it?
-- Tom
Comrade Tomsky.
I thought the KGB and Russia were behind all events in human history. Keep up the good work.
Your pal Putin.
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Comrade Tomsky.
I thought the KGB and Russia were behind all events in human history. Keep up the good work.
Your pal Putin.
Dear Comrade Smith,
Your hero, "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin, cherishes The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx") almost as much as you do.
-- Tom
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Even accepting the pedantic contrarian interpretation of Marina's testimony about the rifle, it proves the following:
1) LHO owned a rifle in the months leading up to the assassination.
2) He kept that rifle in Paine's garage.
3) It was missing on 11.22.63 when the police showed up and Marina directed them to the location that she expected them to find it.
4) There is no accounting for that rifle as any other than the one found in the TSBD.
What else do we know?
1) That if Oswald owned a rifle, he lied about such ownership when questioned about it by the police.
2) He ordered and was sent a rifle with a specific serial number.
3) A rifle with that same serial number was found in the TSBD. Oswald's place of employment.
4) Oswald's prints were on that rifle.
5) There is zero evidence that any person other than Oswald owned or possessed the rifle found in the TSBD in the months leading up to the assassination.
6) There is zero evidence that Oswald owned any other rifle than the one left in the TSBD.
7) Oswald was pictured with the rifle left at the TSBD.
All of this overwhelmingly links Oswald to a specific rifle and that rifle to the crime.
1) LHO owned a rifle in the months leading up to the assassination.
How exactly does it prove that?
2) He kept that rifle in Paine's garage.
How does it prove that?
3) It was missing on 11.22.63 when the police showed up and Marina directed them to the location that she expected them to find it.
What was missing on 11.22.63? The rifle that you can't prove was ever there or the rifle that was later found at the TSDB, which you also can not prove?
4) There is no accounting for that rifle as any other than the one found in the TSBD.
Accounting for what rifle? Since when does "it must be the same rifle" become proof of anything?
What else do we know?
1) That if Oswald owned a rifle, he lied about such ownership when questioned about it by the police.
And how exactly do we know "Oswald owned a rifle"?
2) He ordered and was sent a rifle with a specific serial number.
Really? Are you sure about that? Got any actual evidence to back up that claim?
3) A rifle with that same serial number was found in the TSBD. Oswald's place of employment.
What same serial number? Do you have any credible evidence that Oswald ever owned a rifle with the serial number of the one found at the TSBD?
4) Oswald's prints were on that rifle.
Really? How could that be when the FBI couldn't find any prints on the rifle when they examined it only hours after the assassination?
5) There is zero evidence that any person other than Oswald owned or possessed the rifle found in the TSBD in the months leading up to the assassination.
6) There is zero evidence that Oswald owned any other rifle than the one left in the TSBD.
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.
7) Oswald was pictured with the rifle left at the TSBD.
Really? Can you show me the serial number of the rifle in one of the BY photos? Or is it, just like everything else, merely your own pathetic opinion?