JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Lance Payette on August 06, 2025, 07:47:09 PM
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Just thinking out loud here ...
The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.
But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?
What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?
As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)
The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?
Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.
Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.
Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.
The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.
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Just thinking out loud here ...
The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.
But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?
What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?
As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)
The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?
Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.
Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.
Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.
The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.
This speculative scenario might give some food for thought:
For me, some of Arnold Rowland’s account rings true. He reported his sighting of a man with a rifle on the west end of the sixth floor of the TSBD to his wife at the time he saw him. He also reported this to the authorities shortly thereafter in his 11/22/63 affidavit. Some of his WC testimony rings true to me. My 3D computer model indicates he could have seen pretty much what he described of the man through that window. So, it appears to me that as of 15-minutes before the shooting LHO was likely standing with his rifle where Rowland indicated.
So, why would LHO expose himself at that time (when BRW was still on the sixth floor)? Well, this was at the same time that the ambulance came into Dealey Plaza with siren on to pick up the epilepsy victim. I think that LHO had been trapped on the west end of the sixth floor when BRW came back up to eat his lunch. There is evidence to suggest that LHO hid his rifle near the west end of the sixth floor (he left his clipboard near there, and eventually hid the rifle there after the shooting). It the above is what happened, then it makes sense to me that LHO, as he was hiding on the west end of the sixth floor and being quiet, heard the commotions of the ambulance and might have thought that this was the sounds of the motorcade approaching. LHO could have quietly stayed out of BRW’s sight (behind stacked boxes) and stood up to see what was going on outside. Rowland could have seen him standing back a little way from the window. If it had been the motorcade approaching, I believe LHO could have (and probably would have) fired from one of the windows on the west end of the sixth floor. I doubt that BRW or anyone else could have stopped him until it was too late.
However, BRW did leave the sixth floor before the motorcade got there. And LHO was able to move into position in the sniper’s nest as planned. LHO still had one live bullet he could have used if anyone had been on or came up to the sixth floor before LHO hid the rifle and left.
So, your opinion and mine differ with respect to whether or not LHO would have shot his way out of the sixth floor of the TSBD. But I pretty much agree with the rest of your ideas.
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Just thinking out loud here ...
The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.
But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?
What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?
As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)
The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?
Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.
Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.
Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.
The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.
I don't think it was unusual for the workers Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, and James "Junior" Jarman to eat lunch on the 6th floor. I think it's possible that any one of these three might have been targeted as the assassin if the scenario blaming Oswald didn't "hold." In fact, one of these three might have been "first choice."
I also think the more we know about our government agencies... then, and today... the less credibility they all have... and the less assurance we have that they will do the "right" thing...
Power corrupts... absolute power corrupts absolutely...
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Just thinking out loud here ...
The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.
But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?
What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?
As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)
The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?
Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.
Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.
Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.
The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.
As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.”
The freight elevators were on the sixth floor. Remember that Oswald asked the others to send the elevator back up. Once the elevator arrives back up to the sixth floor, Oswald raises the security gate, which deems the elevator inoperable. This is also why Baker and Truly couldn't get an elevator when they tried.
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The freight elevators were on the sixth floor. Remember that Oswald asked the others to send the elevator back up. Once the elevator arrives back up to the sixth floor, Oswald raises the security gate, which deems the elevator inoperable. This is also why Baker and Truly couldn't get an elevator when they tried.
I believe the elevators were reportedly on the fifth floor. However, there is no reason to not believe that LHO could have walked the steps down to the fifth floor and raised the gate as you suggest. Then walked back up the steps to the sixth floor.
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Also for what it's worth, the passenger elevator went only up to the fourth floor. An assassin on the sixth floor wouldn't be concerned with any unwanted visitors from the passenger elevator.
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I believe the elevators were reportedly on the fifth floor. However, there is no reason to not believe that LHO could have walked the steps down to the fifth floor and raised the gate as you suggest. Then walked back up the steps to the sixth floor.
That (fifth floor) was my recollection as well. In any event, I'm talking about the entire period preceding the assassination. It is a fact that the sixth floor was empty and perhaps even that the elevators were not readily available after everyone had departed, but I don't see how anyone including Oswald could reasonably have anticipated this in advance. How could Oswald know that some or all of the departing members of the flooring crew wouldn't say "We'll be right back up with our lunches because we want to watch from here"? How could he know that Jarman, Norman and Williams wouldn't decide the view from the sixth floor might be better than the fifth?
I don't want to get as locked-in to my theory as many CTers are to theirs, but the most believable scenario to me is that (1) Oswald had done nothing resembling assassination planning and was not fully committed to the JFKA until the morning of 11-22; (2) by the morning of the JFKA, Oswald was at the end of his rope psychologically, had no expectation of escaping the TSBD, and thus had no plan of escape; (3) he was surprised and happy to find himself alone on the sixth floor, astonished to survive the lunchroom encounter, and equally astonished to find himself outside the TSBD; and (4) everything after that was Oswald thinking on the run and flying by the seat of his pants. Lawyers are always looking for what they call a "theory of the case" that the judge or jury will accept as believable, and that's what I try to do: What makes the most sense as to what was really going on with Oswald?
Lastly, the uncertainty that the sixth floor would be empty seems to me a far bigger risk for supposed conspirators than the risk of getting in and out of the TSBD, which is why I do think this risk is the kiss of death for any theory that has someone other than Oswald being the sixth-floor shooter. A rational conspiracy theory has to accept Oswald as one of the shooters, even if it posits him as a patsy shooter who thought he was involved in a pro-Castro conspiracy when it was exactly the opposite. Oswald as an innocent patsy is simply nonsense, just people playing Oswald defense counsel for some reason I can't fathom. I do agree that Rowland probably saw Oswald down at the west end.
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Yes, the fifth floor, not the sixth. Truly recalled looking up the freight elevator shaft and noting that both freight elevators were stopped on the fifth floor.
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There appears that there was a discussion about some workers meeting up on the 6th floor.
Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Williams account of his 6th floor visit to me is a bit suspicious, he had no trouble going straight to the window directly below but for some reason he didn't go to the equivalent windows on the 6th floor but instead situated himself in the middle of the floor and stayed put? When this came up in Williams WC testimony, Dulles may have had a similar doubt because at this point in time, Dulles suddenly brings up if Williams had any trouble with the "law"? I reckon Williams may have seen Oswald but being black wanted nothing to do with seeing the President's assassin just minutes before the shooting? This could also explain some of the early discrepancies with Norman, Jarman and William's initial recollections?
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRYvpzf5/dillard-powell-boxesa.gif)
JohnM
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That (fifth floor) was my recollection as well. In any event, I'm talking about the entire period preceding the assassination. It is a fact that the sixth floor was empty and perhaps even that the elevators were not readily available after everyone had departed, but I don't see how anyone including Oswald could reasonably have anticipated this in advance. How could Oswald know that some or all of the departing members of the flooring crew wouldn't say "We'll be right back up with our lunches because we want to watch from here"? How could he know that Jarman, Norman and Williams wouldn't decide the view from the sixth floor might be better than the fifth?
I don't want to get as locked-in to my theory as many CTers are to theirs, but the most believable scenario to me is that (1) Oswald had done nothing resembling assassination planning and was not fully committed to the JFKA until the morning of 11-22; (2) by the morning of the JFKA, Oswald was at the end of his rope psychologically, had no expectation of escaping the TSBD, and thus had no plan of escape; (3) he was surprised and happy to find himself alone on the sixth floor, astonished to survive the lunchroom encounter, and equally astonished to find himself outside the TSBD; and (4) everything after that was Oswald thinking on the run and flying by the seat of his pants. Lawyers are always looking for what they call a "theory of the case" that the judge or jury will accept as believable, and that's what I try to do: What makes the most sense as to what was really going on with Oswald?
Lastly, the uncertainty that the sixth floor would be empty seems to me a far bigger risk for supposed conspirators than the risk of getting in and out of the TSBD, which is why I do think this risk is the kiss of death for any theory that has someone other than Oswald being the sixth-floor shooter. A rational conspiracy theory has to accept Oswald as one of the shooters, even if it posits him as a patsy shooter who thought he was involved in a pro-Castro conspiracy when it was exactly the opposite. Oswald as an innocent patsy is simply nonsense, just people playing Oswald defense counsel for some reason I can't fathom. I do agree that Rowland probably saw Oswald down at the west end.
No doubt he was shooting and killed Tippit. Had there been somebody else on the sixth floor it could have been prevented. The Miami Motorcade was cancelled several days before Dallas due to the leaked plot from Milteer.
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There appears that there was a discussion about some workers meeting up on the 6th floor.
Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Williams account of his 6th floor visit to me is a bit suspicious, he had no trouble going straight to the window directly below but for some reason he didn't go to the equivalent windows on the 6th floor but instead situated himself in the middle of the floor and stayed put? When this came up in Williams WC testimony, Dulles may have had a similar doubt because at this point in time, Dulles suddenly brings up if Williams had any trouble with the "law"? I reckon Williams may have seen Oswald but being black wanted nothing to do with seeing the President's assassin just minutes before the shooting? This could also explain some of the early discrepancies with Norman, Jarman and William's initial recollections?
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRYvpzf5/dillard-powell-boxesa.gif)
JohnM
Thanks, John, good points. I just once again skimmed the WC testimony of Williams, Norman, Jarman and Givens, and just those four underscore how iffy it was that the sixth floor would be empty during the time of the JFKA. I can well believe that any Black guy who was on the fifth or sixth floor from 11:30 to 12:15 would want to distance himself from having any reason to be suspicious of Oswald. Givens said that after first going down for lunch he went immediately back up to get his jacket and cigarettes and saw Oswald with his clipboard walking toward the elevator from the southeast corner; Williams said he went back up and spent long enough to eat his lunch but saw no one, neither Givens nor Oswald; and Rowland seemed very sure that he saw the guy with the rifle standing at the southwest window at 12:15. If Rowland was truthful, it seems unlikely that Williams wouldn't have seen Oswald, although I suppose it's possible Oswald waited until he was sure Williams was gone and then emerged with the rifle to be seen by Rowland, feeling pretty sure by 12:15 or 12:20 that he was alone. (Yes, folks, I know all about the changes in Givens' story, which are highly suspicious even to me. My only point here is that Oswald could have had no confidence about being alone on the sixth floor, but at least he could have more easily talked his way out of being observed than could a complete stranger with a rifle.)
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Mr. DULLES... How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS... Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
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Assassinating the president from a building is fraught with all types of risk. Oswald was a smart fellow. He was familiar with the building and the movements of those who worked on the 6th floor at lunch time. Based on the Walker shooting, Oswald likely made an assessment in the days leading up to the assassination of the locations that gave him the best combination of seclusion and shooting location. The boxes around the 6th floor window were ideal for that purpose. My guess is that he had an alternative location in mind if that was not available. Perhaps on the 7th floor. The ledge under the 7th floor windows, however, present some obstruction. So the 6th floor was the better option if available to him. Oswald hides the gun on that floor that morning. He walks around the floor with his clipboard before the assassination giving him the appearance of a work-related excuse to be there and allowing him to scout out the situation. When he decides to retrieve the rifle, he places the clipboard down. Meaning that the area in which the clipboard is found is likely the same area where he hid the rifle that morning. The fact that he fired the shots from the 6th floor doesn't mean that he had to do so and could not have had an alternative in mind had there been some group of folks on that floor. In other words, Oswald doesn't have to ensure that no one was there. He just has to find a place in the building where no one was present.
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Just thinking out loud again …
What struck me about Williams’ efforts to show he couldn’t have seen Oswald in the sniper’s nest is that he should have been able to see Rowland’s guy by the southwest window if there was any overlap in time. Because I’m stuck inside the house, I spent some time trying to put together a realistic scenario and had a heck of a time. The actual timing of what occurred is critical.
It's hard to determine exactly when the flooring crew actually went down. It appears some of them understandably may have been reluctant to admit they knocked off work earlier than usual. My best estimate would be 11:40-11:45, which is what some said.
No one really saw Oswald on the sixth floor before the crew knocked off. Williams said he might have seen him messing with boxes during the morning, but not near the sniper’s nest. This would have been consistent with Oswald’s order-filling work, and Williams was very unsure. The unreliable Dougherty said he encountered him at the boxes about 11 AM, routinely filling orders.
When the flooring crew went down, the consensus was that Oswald was near the east elevator on the fifth floor. He called out something about leaving the gate open when they got to the first floor.
Shelley was absolutely consistent in having seen Oswald working and standing near the telephone on the first floor around 11:50 (rather odd if Shelley was part of some conspiracy to frame him!). Piper spoke to him on the first floor at about noon, when Oswald said he was going up to lunch.
Everything suggests to me that Oswald was keeping up the appearance of business as usual until at least noon. This obviously would have been smart – make sure you’re seen working and not on the sixth floor. He could have assembled and stashed the rifle before the flooring crew started work, or just a short time before the assassination – it was not a big project.
Givens didn’t mention his sixth-floor encounter with Oswald until the WC. As a Black guy with a criminal record who'd left the TSBD, the last thing Givens needed was to have been alone with Oswald on the sixth floor. I see nothing suspicious about omitting the encounter until the WC.
Givens strongly suggests the crew left fairly early. He went downstairs, went to the bathroom, encountered Oswald when he went back up, and was still out of the TSBD at noon. One possibility is that he encountered Oswald before Oswald was seen by Shelley and Piper on the first floor. He reported Oswald walking toward the elevator from the area of the sniper’s nest with his clipboard in his hand. Oswald declined a ride down but said he’d be down shortly. This would be my guess – Oswald had gone from the fifth floor to the sixth via the stairs and encountered Givens before he (Oswald) went down.
Then we have Williams, another Black guy who understandably would have wanted to distance himself from seeing Oswald or anything suspicious on the sixth floor while he was eating his lunch. He said he could not see any part of the sniper’s nest area other than the top of the window as he ate his lunch – but he seemingly should have seen Rowland’s guy if the latter were over by the southwest window.
If Williams’ estimate of the time is pretty close, he could have arrived at the sixth floor just shortly after Oswald – say 3-5 minutes after noon - and could have left a few minutes before Rowland saw Oswald at the southwest window. Oswald would have been quiet in the sniper’s nest during this time and emerged after hearing Williams leaving.
I’m still a bit troubled by Rowland’s story. It seems very risky for Oswald to be standing at the southwest window with his rifle in that manner, and I’m not sure what he would be doing other than testing it as an alternative to the sniper’s nest. By that time – 12:15 or perhaps 12:20, he would have been pretty confident of being alone on the sixth floor and presumably could have heard anyone coming up.
I’m not, of course, factoring in any of the conspiracy-oriented discrepancies (such as having Piper on the sixth floor actually witnessing the shooting!). I’m trying to picture what actually occurred, with people perhaps being off on their time estimates by a critical few minutes here and there but not blatantly lying. Shelley seems to me a very good “time anchor” for Oswald being on the first floor just shortly before noon, which is not at all implausible.
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Just thinking out loud again …
What struck me about Williams’ efforts to show he couldn’t have seen Oswald in the sniper’s nest is that he should have been able to see Rowland’s guy by the southwest window if there was any overlap in time. Because I’m stuck inside the house, I spent some time trying to put together a realistic scenario and had a heck of a time. The actual timing of what occurred is critical.
It's hard to determine exactly when the flooring crew actually went down. It appears some of them understandably may have been reluctant to admit they knocked off work earlier than usual. My best estimate would be 11:40-11:45, which is what some said.
No one really saw Oswald on the sixth floor before the crew knocked off. Williams said he might have seen him messing with boxes during the morning, but not near the sniper’s nest. This would have been consistent with Oswald’s order-filling work, and Williams was very unsure. The unreliable Dougherty said he encountered him at the boxes about 11 AM, routinely filling orders.
When the flooring crew went down, the consensus was that Oswald was near the east elevator on the fifth floor. He called out something about leaving the gate open when they got to the first floor.
Shelley was absolutely consistent in having seen Oswald working and standing near the telephone on the first floor around 11:50 (rather odd if Shelley was part of some conspiracy to frame him!). Piper spoke to him on the first floor at about noon, when Oswald said he was going up to lunch.
Everything suggests to me that Oswald was keeping up the appearance of business as usual until at least noon. This obviously would have been smart – make sure you’re seen working and not on the sixth floor. He could have assembled and stashed the rifle before the flooring crew started work, or just a short time before the assassination – it was not a big project.
Givens didn’t mention his sixth-floor encounter with Oswald until the WC. As a Black guy with a criminal record who'd left the TSBD, the last thing Givens needed was to have been alone with Oswald on the sixth floor. I see nothing suspicious about omitting the encounter until the WC.
Givens strongly suggests the crew left fairly early. He went downstairs, went to the bathroom, encountered Oswald when he went back up, and was still out of the TSBD at noon. One possibility is that he encountered Oswald before Oswald was seen by Shelley and Piper on the first floor. He reported Oswald walking toward the elevator from the area of the sniper’s nest with his clipboard in his hand. Oswald declined a ride down but said he’d be down shortly. This would be my guess – Oswald had gone from the fifth floor to the sixth via the stairs and encountered Givens before he (Oswald) went down.
Then we have Williams, another Black guy who understandably would have wanted to distance himself from seeing Oswald or anything suspicious on the sixth floor while he was eating his lunch. He said he could not see any part of the sniper’s nest area other than the top of the window as he ate his lunch – but he seemingly should have seen Rowland’s guy if the latter were over by the southwest window.
If Williams’ estimate of the time is pretty close, he could have arrived at the sixth floor just shortly after Oswald – say 3-5 minutes after noon - and could have left a few minutes before Rowland saw Oswald at the southwest window. Oswald would have been quiet in the sniper’s nest during this time and emerged after hearing Williams leaving.
I’m still a bit troubled by Rowland’s story. It seems very risky for Oswald to be standing at the southwest window with his rifle in that manner, and I’m not sure what he would be doing other than testing it as an alternative to the sniper’s nest. By that time – 12:15 or perhaps 12:20, he would have been pretty confident of being alone on the sixth floor and presumably could have heard anyone coming up.
I’m not, of course, factoring in any of the conspiracy-oriented discrepancies (such as having Piper on the sixth floor actually witnessing the shooting!). I’m trying to picture what actually occurred, with people perhaps being off on their time estimates by a critical few minutes here and there but not blatantly lying. Shelley seems to me a very good “time anchor” for Oswald being on the first floor just shortly before noon, which is not at all implausible.
Lance, it is entirely possible for LHO to have been standing where Rowland described and be blocked from BRW’s view as he sat where he said he ate his lunch and where his lunch remains were found and photographed. There was some stacks of boxes between the two positions. Some of them were high enough to block the view of LHO standing. All LHO needed to do was quietly get to that area and stand up without making enough noise for BRW to notice. The reason I think he might have risked exposing himself to view from outside (Rowland) is the commotion of the sirens, etc from the ambulance that happened at that particular time. LHO might have thought that it might have been the motorcade approaching.
I satisfied myself that the stacks of boxes blocked the view from BRW’s location by using my computer 3D model. I posted some images of this and those images at least quieted the arguments from one of the naysayers at that time. I will post some of them again if I can find them.
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Lance, it is entirely possible for LHO to have been standing where Rowland described and be blocked from BRW’s view as he sat where he said he ate his lunch and where his lunch remains were found and photographed. There was some stacks of boxes between the two positions. Some of them were high enough to block the view of LHO standing. All LHO needed to do was quietly get to that area and stand up without making enough noise for BRW to notice. The reason I think he might have risked exposing himself to view from outside (Rowland) is the commotion of the sirens, etc from the ambulance that happened at that particular time. LHO might have thought that it might have been the motorcade approaching.
I satisfied myself that the stacks of boxes blocked the view from BRW’s location by using my computer 3D model. I posted some images of this and those images at least quieted the arguments from one of the naysayers at that time. I will post some of them again if I can find them.
OK, good. The commotion from the sirens is a definite possibility. Or perhaps the rifle was actually stashed over on the west side Another possibility, which is what John seemed to be suggesting, is that Williams actually did see Oswald. The Rowland sighting sounds too much like Oswald to reject it completely. I have seen animations purporting to show that Williams would have had an unobstructed view of the location where Rowland saw Oswald, which is why I was having him leaving before Oswald emerged. I'd definitely be interested in your 3D model if you can locate it. A really accurate model or animation of what the sixth floor looked like on 11-22 seems difficult to find.
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FWIW, the Secret Service reconstruction film has some excellent shots of the interior or the sixth floor, including (in Part 2) a shot from the sniper's nest down toward the southwest window. Actually, both of these are quite interesting.
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OK, good. The commotion from the sirens is a definite possibility. Or perhaps the rifle was actually stashed over on the west side Another possibility, which is what John seemed to be suggesting, is that Williams actually did see Oswald. The Rowland sighting sounds too much like Oswald to reject it completely. I have seen animations purporting to show that Williams would have had an unobstructed view of the location where Rowland saw Oswald, which is why I was having him leaving before Oswald emerged. I'd definitely be interested in your 3D model if you can locate it. A really accurate model or animation of what the sixth floor looked like on 11-22 seems difficult to find.
I will start looking and see what I can find. My old computer died and some things were lost. So, I may need to just repeat the exercise.
As far as BRW seeing LHO goes, I think it is quite possible. I also think (along similar lines) that BRW could have actually been in the sniper's nest at one point. Hence Rowland's description of seeing someone in that window is possible. I could understand why BRW would be reluctant to divulge these things (if they are true). After all it would just be BRW and LHO who knew for sure. And LHO was no longer a factor (after 11/24/63).
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Buell Frazier said that Fritz threatened him if he, Frazier, didn't sign a confession. In fact, threatened to beat him.
I always wondered given the terrible racism at that time why they didn't coerce/intimidate the black workers (even others) to implicate Oswald. Like they allegedly did to Frazier. The black workers were, of course, particularly vulnerable to this. So force them to say they saw Oswald with a long package that day, that he expressed hatred towards JFK, they saw him steal some wrapping paper, even that they saw him (or heard someone) go down the stairs after the shooting. Anything. After all, the claim is that Oswald was railroaded, not given consul, evidence planted, he was a patsy. So what about the black workers?
But nothing. Nothing they said really implicated Oswald in any way. In any trial, they would likely be called as defense witnesses.
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Buell Frazier said that Fritz threatened him if he, Frazier, didn't sign a confession. In fact, threatened to beat him.
I always wondered given the terrible racism at that time why they didn't coerce/intimidate the black workers (even others) to implicate Oswald. Like they allegedly did to Frazier. The black workers were, of course, particularly vulnerable to this. So force them to say they saw Oswald with a long package that day, that he expressed hatred towards JFK, they saw him steal some wrapping paper, even that they saw him (or heard someone) go down the stairs after the shooting. Anything. After all, the claim is that Oswald was railroaded, not given consul, evidence planted, he was a patsy. So what about the black workers?
But nothing. Nothing they said really implicated Oswald in any way. In any trial, they would likely be called as defense witnesses.
Similar to what I said about Frazier - supposedly one of the key players in the conspiracy, but he places Oswald on the first floor just before noon every time he's interviewed. In fact, everyone from Truly on down apparently didn't get the Conspiracy Memo. Ditto with Ruth Paine.
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OK, good. The commotion from the sirens is a definite possibility. Or perhaps the rifle was actually stashed over on the west side Another possibility, which is what John seemed to be suggesting, is that Williams actually did see Oswald. The Rowland sighting sounds too much like Oswald to reject it completely. I have seen animations purporting to show that Williams would have had an unobstructed view of the location where Rowland saw Oswald, which is why I was having him leaving before Oswald emerged. I'd definitely be interested in your 3D model if you can locate it. A really accurate model or animation of what the sixth floor looked like on 11-22 seems difficult to find.
I couldn't find the images I generated during the earlier discussion a few years ago. I suspect they were lost with the old computer dying. I haven't tried yet to model the entire sixth floor with all the various stacks of boxes, etc. accurately located. I have only basically attempted to model the sniper's nest area. But I do have the entire basic outline of the TSBD building modeled. The software program is limited and I have to improvise a lot.
Here's some images that I think will at least show you the idea that seems to me to show how LHO could have stayed out of BRW's sight while standing approximately where Rowland described.
First, here's an image from Rowland's viewpoint angle that shows a character with a rifle back a bit from the western sixth floor TSBD window. The character is positioned to be looking in the direction of Rowland and the intersection of Main & Houston. I was impressed and satisfied that the same areas of the character that can be seen through the open part of the window is close to what Rowland said he saw.
(https://i.vgy.me/cQla36.png)
Next is a screenshot from the video you provided a link to that shows stacks of boxes near the area that Rowland's rifle man was reportedly seen. I have drawn a red arrow to indicate the stack that I believe is relevant to this exercise. There are some DPD photos that were taken shortly after the assassination that show these boxes (and their positions) clearer. But I haven't yet located the DPD photos (I am not very well organized).
(https://i.vgy.me/UiI209.jpg)
And next is an image that shows how LHO could have positioned himself relative to BRW's position so that he stayed hidden from BRW's viewpoint. In the top right frame (top floorplan view), the "virtual visitor" (aka: camera position) is positioned about where BRW indicated he ate his lunch. The rifle man is in the same position he is in the Rowland viewpoint image above. The stack of boxes effectively hide the rifle man from BRW's viewpoint as can be seen in the lower right frame. This model is rather crude at this point, but I believe that it shows the general idea, and that it could have happened this way.
(https://i.vgy.me/paw5eZ.png)
Here is the same view as the BRW viewpoint above, but with the top three boxes made invisible. The boxes are the same size as the ones surrounding the sniper's nest. You can see the rifle man character is effectively hidden from BRW's viewpoint by the stack of boxes.
(https://i.vgy.me/0mW4x9.png)
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Thanks, Charles.
Here, mostly from an FBI booklet, are numerous photos of the TSBD on a single page: https://www.tpaak.com/texas-school-book-depository.
It's interesting what a box-filled mess the TSBD was. It really was more of a warehouse than an office building.
It also occurs to me that what we call the sniper's nest really wasn't much of a construction project. Oswald may have walked along the entire bank of windows before deciding that was the spot.
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Thanks, Charles.
Here, mostly from an FBI booklet, are numerous photos of the TSBD on a single page: https://www.tpaak.com/texas-school-book-depository.
It's interesting what a box-filled mess the TSBD was. It really was more of a warehouse than an office building.
It also occurs to me that what we call the sniper's nest really wasn't much of a construction project. Oswald may have walked along the entire bank of windows before deciding that was the spot.
Thanks for the link. Yes, I think that there apparently was plenty of stacks of boxes of books for LHO to slither behind and hide from BRW.
My understanding is that most of the stacks of boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest were placed there by the flooring crew. They had been temporarily put there to clear the floor where they were working on the west end of the sixth floor. I think that LHO’s portion was probably mostly just the boxes at the sniper’s window itself. Quick and not too difficult. It is interesting that the two smaller boxes of rolling readers came from the center of the sixth floor. No one (except LHO) had any apparent reason to move those boxes to the sniper’s nest area.
I think that LHO probably had only a day or two to devise a plan. We have had many years to look at everything. And I am still impressed with how well his planning worked. Just take one aspect for example. The location of LHO’s clipboard when it was found is shown in one of the photos on the page you provided a link to. That location is most likely very close to where LHO stashed the rifle when he arrived at the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63. So, I think that if a group of workers had gathered on the sixth floor to watch the motorcade, LHO might have had a contingency plan that might have allowed him to quietly grab the rifle and go up the nearby stairs to the seventh floor (which was reportedly rarely used for much). Those stairs going up are adjacent to the clipboard location and shown on the right side of that photo. I think it might have been feasible for LHO to grab the rifle and go up the stairs to the seventh floor without anyone else on the sixth floor even noticing (especially if they were looking out at Dealey Plaza for the motorcade and talking amongst each other). My guess is that LHO was in the process of retrieving his rifle on the west end of the sixth floor and was more or less confined to that end of the floor due to BRW coming back up to the sixth floor (until BRW left that floor of course).