JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Lance Payette on August 05, 2025, 05:51:53 PM
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These are the kind of weird little details that drive me nuts ...
Bill Brown posted at the Ed Forum today a nice analysis of the possibility that Oswald was planning to catch a bus to Laredo (and then on to Mexico) after the JFKA: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/31665-david-belin-papers-dallas-city-greyhound-bus-routes-dallas-to-mexico/.
I quote: "Oswald had $13.87 on him when he was arrested. One could get from Dallas to Laredo for $12.80." He thus had enough for the ticket, a Coke and a bag of Fritos, but not much more.
He gave McWatters 23 cents for bus fare and Whaley $1 for the taxi ride, so that brings him up to $15.10 when he left the TSBD, assuming he didn't get additional funds during his pit stop at the rooming house.
But wait, he left at least $170 for Marina when he left the Paine house that morning. (Many sources say $187. Some say he left it in a wallet on the dresser, others - including Marina - that it was in a wallet used for savings purposes in a dresser drawer. The WR says $170 in a wallet in the dresser drawer, so we'll go with that.)
He didn't leave her $100 and take a more plausible $85.10 for himself or even $150 for her and a more reasonable $35.10 for himself.
What does this tell us, if anything?
If the wallet was used for savings purposes and in a drawer, did Oswald simply forget about it? It's just a red herring? He did tell Marina to buy shoes for Junie and whatever else was needed, so it would seem he didn't simply forget about it.
If the JFKA was basically a suicide mission and he expected to be killed or arrested, why did he need $15.10 at all? (Marina suggested he had $15 when he left, so this meshes nicely with what he actually had. Perhaps he had another nickel or dime and did buy a Coke in the TSBD.)
If he thought he'd be taken care of by accomplices, why did he need $15.10? Was he going to be taken care of after he reached Laredo and knew $15.10 would just cover the cost of the getting to the rooming house and on to Laredo? Would he really cut things that close, leaving himself only a $1.07 margin of error by the time he left the rooming house?
Was the JFKA just such a slapdash, unplanned project that he just happened to have $15.10 when he left the Paine house that morning, he gave no thought to anything but shooting JFK, and that's just all there is to it? He had no plan at all when he encountered Tippit?
I lean toward the latter - he was astounded to walk out of the TSBD, just happened to have $15.10 on him, and had no plan at all as he walked along Tenth Street. If there were anything resembling a plan in advance of the JFKA, I have to believe he'd have taken more than $15.10 when he left the Paine house. After he left the rooming house, I suppose it's possible he may have wondered "How far from here can I get on $13.87?" if you want to call that a plan.
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These are the kind of weird little details that drive me nuts ...
Bill Brown posted at the Ed Forum today a nice analysis of the possibility that Oswald was planning to catch a bus to Laredo (and then on to Mexico) after the JFKA: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/31665-david-belin-papers-dallas-city-greyhound-bus-routes-dallas-to-mexico/.
I quote: "Oswald had $13.87 on him when he was arrested. One could get from Dallas to Laredo for $12.80." He thus had enough for the ticket, a Coke and a bag of Fritos, but not much more.
He gave McWatters 23 cents for bus fare and Whaley $1 for the taxi ride, so that brings him up to $15.10 when he left the TSBD, assuming he didn't get additional funds during his pit stop at the rooming house.
But wait, he left at least $170 for Marina when he left the Paine house that morning. (Many sources say $187. Some say he left it in a wallet on the dresser, others - including Marina - that it was in a wallet used for savings purposes in a dresser drawer. The WR says $170 in a wallet in the dresser drawer, so we'll go with that.)
He didn't leave her $100 and take a more plausible $85.10 for himself or even $150 for her and a more reasonable $35.10 for himself.
What does this tell us, if anything?
If the wallet was used for savings purposes and in a drawer, did Oswald simply forget about it? It's just a red herring? He did tell Marina to buy shoes for Junie and whatever else was needed, so it would seem he didn't simply forget about it.
If the JFKA was basically a suicide mission and he expected to be killed or arrested, why did he need $15.10 at all? (Marina suggested he had $15 when he left, so this meshes nicely with what he actually had. Perhaps he had another nickel or dime and did buy a Coke in the TSBD.)
If he thought he'd be taken care of by accomplices, why did he need $15.10? Was he going to be taken care of after he reached Laredo and knew $15.10 would just cover the cost of the getting to the rooming house and on to Laredo? Would he really cut things that close, leaving himself only a $1.07 margin of error by the time he left the rooming house?
Was the JFKA just such a slapdash, unplanned project that he just happened to have $15.10 when he left the Paine house that morning, he gave no thought to anything but shooting JFK, and that's just all there is to it? He had no plan at all when he encountered Tippit?
I lean toward the latter - he was astounded to walk out of the TSBD, just happened to have $15.10 on him, and had no plan at all as he walked along Tenth Street. If there were anything resembling a plan in advance of the JFKA, I have to believe he'd have taken more than $15.10 when he left the Paine house. After he left the rooming house, I suppose it's possible he may have wondered "How far from here can I get on $13.87?" if you want to call that a plan.
His very first actions were to get away from the TSBD and retrieve his revolver. He had apparently previously tried to get Marina to help him hijack a plane to Cuba. Need I say anything more?
P.S. I think the amount of money he had on him at the time of arrest was probably just coincidence and not due to any planning at all.
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I really think some of these seemingly piddly details offer the biggest clues.
On the morning of 11-22, Oswald heads off on what promises to be rather a busy day with potentially lots of unexpected twists and turns. He starts off with a mere $15 in his wallet, leaving $170 behind. He leaves the scene of the crime with no more plan than walking out the door, hopping a bus, exiting the bus and hailing a taxi. He has to go to his rooming house to get his revolver, which he easily could have brought to the TSBD when he went to work on 11-21. His next move is to stroll down 10th Street a couple of miles from the TSBD.
This all seems to me virtually impossible to square with an assassination conspiracy. Not even minimal preplanning or any post-assassination plan. Nothing suggesting accomplices. It pretty much screams "last-minute decision with no real expectation of exiting the TSBD." I believe any post-assassination "plan," to use the term loosely, was probably formulated in Whaley's cab or still being hashed out in his mind as he walked along 10th Street.
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I really think some of these seemingly piddly details offer the biggest clues.
On the morning of 11-22, Oswald heads off on what promises to be rather a busy day with potentially lots of unexpected twists and turns. He starts off with a mere $15 in his wallet, leaving $170 behind. He leaves the scene of the crime with no more plan than walking out the door, hopping a bus, exiting the bus and hailing a taxi. He has to go to his rooming house to get his revolver, which he easily could have brought to the TSBD when he went to work on 11-21. His next move is to stroll down 10th Street a couple of miles from the TSBD.
This all seems to me virtually impossible to square with an assassination conspiracy. Not even minimal preplanning or any post-assassination plan. Nothing suggesting accomplices. It pretty much screams "last-minute decision with no real expectation of exiting the TSBD." I believe any post-assassination "plan," to use the term loosely, was probably formulated in Whaley's cab or still being hashed out in his mind as he walked along 10th Street.
It appears to me that LHO believed his revolver was more important to him than his money. He was a meticulous planner if he had enough time. So, it seems to me that he probably did consider what he might do if he managed to escape the TSBD. LHO probably realized that he would soon be the most wanted man in the world. And that his chances of making it very far were minimal. Of course that wouldn’t prevent him from trying. Marina said that LHO laughed at the reports in the news of the police activities and suspicions after the Walker attempt because the police apparently assumed the Walker shooter escaped via automobile. And LHO simply left on foot and took the bus.
One thought I have had regarding the bus is that if traffic hadn’t held the bus up and LHO had remained on the bus, he would have ridden right past the TSBD. It’s reportedly not uncommon for criminals to go by the scenes of their crimes shortly afterwards. And so I wonder if LHO rode a bus right by the Walker residence shortly afterwards. Just a thought.
While we are speculating, I have posted this before and Bill Brown commented that these are fair points. If Dale Myers is correct about LHO being seen walking west on Tenth Street, the cab parked on the corner would have been prominent in his view. I think it is possible LHO was hurrying towards it and possibly waving an arm to hail the cab. If Tippit appeared at that same point in time, Tippit might have thought LHO was waving for Tippit to stop. Just another thought.
I think Mexico and Cuba probably were LHO’s goal. But I think LHO probably knew his chances of getting there were slim and none. Hence his revolver was more important to him than his money. And I wouldn’t be surprised if LHO wanted to go out with a big bang. Hence he drew his revolver in the Texas Theater on the cops.
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I really think some of these seemingly piddly details offer the biggest clues.
On the morning of 11-22, Oswald heads off on what promises to be rather a busy day with potentially lots of unexpected twists and turns. He starts off with a mere $15 in his wallet, leaving $170 behind. He leaves the scene of the crime with no more plan than walking out the door, hopping a bus, exiting the bus and hailing a taxi. He has to go to his rooming house to get his revolver, which he easily could have brought to the TSBD when he went to work on 11-21. His next move is to stroll down 10th Street a couple of miles from the TSBD.
This all seems to me virtually impossible to square with an assassination conspiracy. Not even minimal preplanning or any post-assassination plan. Nothing suggesting accomplices. It pretty much screams "last-minute decision with no real expectation of exiting the TSBD." I believe any post-assassination "plan," to use the term loosely, was probably formulated in Whaley's cab or still being hashed out in his mind as he walked along 10th Street.
FPL,
How much is his $15 in today's dollars?
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FPL,
How much is his $15 in today's dollars?
$157 plus some change
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$157 plus some change
I know inflation is pretty bad and it's gonna get a lot worse with The Traitorous Orange Bird's (rhymes with Xxxx's) tariffs going into effect, but that's still more than enough these days for someone like the little self-described Marxist and former sharpshooting Marine to buy, ahead-of-time in the second-floor lunchroom, a bottle of his second-choice soft drink (Coke-Cola, instead of Dr. Pepper which he could have bought from the Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor) to use as a prop with Truly, Officer Baker, and Mrs. Reid after he'd killed JFK and just barely squeaked into said lunchroom before Truly, followed by Baker, arrived on said floor.
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I really think some of these seemingly piddly details offer the biggest clues.
On the morning of 11-22, Oswald heads off on what promises to be rather a busy day with potentially lots of unexpected twists and turns. He starts off with a mere $15 in his wallet, leaving $170 behind. He leaves the scene of the crime with no more plan than walking out the door, hopping a bus, exiting the bus and hailing a taxi. He has to go to his rooming house to get his revolver, which he easily could have brought to the TSBD when he went to work on 11-21. His next move is to stroll down 10th Street a couple of miles from the TSBD.
This all seems to me virtually impossible to square with an assassination conspiracy. Not even minimal preplanning or any post-assassination plan. Nothing suggesting accomplices. It pretty much screams "last-minute decision with no real expectation of exiting the TSBD." I believe any post-assassination "plan," to use the term loosely, was probably formulated in Whaley's cab or still being hashed out in his mind as he walked along 10th Street.
I think he went for the revolver because something happened that scared him. Maybe his getaway never showed, but he did grab the pistol and shot Tippit.
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These are the kind of weird little details that drive me nuts ...
Bill Brown posted at the Ed Forum today a nice analysis of the possibility that Oswald was planning to catch a bus to Laredo (and then on to Mexico) after the JFKA: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/31665-david-belin-papers-dallas-city-greyhound-bus-routes-dallas-to-mexico/.
I quote: "Oswald had $13.87 on him when he was arrested. One could get from Dallas to Laredo for $12.80." He thus had enough for the ticket, a Coke and a bag of Fritos, but not much more.
He gave McWatters 23 cents for bus fare and Whaley $1 for the taxi ride, so that brings him up to $15.10 when he left the TSBD, assuming he didn't get additional funds during his pit stop at the rooming house.
But wait, he left at least $170 for Marina when he left the Paine house that morning. (Many sources say $187. Some say he left it in a wallet on the dresser, others - including Marina - that it was in a wallet used for savings purposes in a dresser drawer. The WR says $170 in a wallet in the dresser drawer, so we'll go with that.)
He didn't leave her $100 and take a more plausible $85.10 for himself or even $150 for her and a more reasonable $35.10 for himself.
What does this tell us, if anything?
If the wallet was used for savings purposes and in a drawer, did Oswald simply forget about it? It's just a red herring? He did tell Marina to buy shoes for Junie and whatever else was needed, so it would seem he didn't simply forget about it.
If the JFKA was basically a suicide mission and he expected to be killed or arrested, why did he need $15.10 at all? (Marina suggested he had $15 when he left, so this meshes nicely with what he actually had. Perhaps he had another nickel or dime and did buy a Coke in the TSBD.)
If he thought he'd be taken care of by accomplices, why did he need $15.10? Was he going to be taken care of after he reached Laredo and knew $15.10 would just cover the cost of the getting to the rooming house and on to Laredo? Would he really cut things that close, leaving himself only a $1.07 margin of error by the time he left the rooming house?
Was the JFKA just such a slapdash, unplanned project that he just happened to have $15.10 when he left the Paine house that morning, he gave no thought to anything but shooting JFK, and that's just all there is to it? He had no plan at all when he encountered Tippit?
I lean toward the latter - he was astounded to walk out of the TSBD, just happened to have $15.10 on him, and had no plan at all as he walked along Tenth Street. If there were anything resembling a plan in advance of the JFKA, I have to believe he'd have taken more than $15.10 when he left the Paine house. After he left the rooming house, I suppose it's possible he may have wondered "How far from here can I get on $13.87?" if you want to call that a plan.
He gave McWatters 23 cents for bus fare and Whaley $1 for the taxi ride, so that brings him up to $15.10 when he left the TSBD, assuming he didn't get additional funds during his pit stop at the rooming house.
For what it's worth, Cortlandt Cunningham testified that the rifle could be assembled using a dime.
While I'm sure there were plenty of screwdrivers lying around the Depository building, perhaps Oswald, when he left the Paine house that morning, had $15 in cash plus a dime for the rifle assembly? Just a thought.
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For what it's worth, Cortlandt Cunningham testified that the rifle could be assembled using a dime.
While I'm sure there were plenty of screwdrivers lying around the Depository building, perhaps Oswald, when he left the Paine house that morning, had $15 in cash plus a dime for the rifle assembly? Just a thought.
Excellent! That dime was nagging at me.
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Excellent! That dime was nagging at me.
According to the evidence he had three dimes on him. Yes, breaking news. Morley makes people pay for material like this; I offer it for free.
I always found that ID bracelet odd. It had his name "Lee" on it; but he used a AJ Hiddell alias? Great spycraft work there, Lee. In any case, Marina is quoted in "Marina and Lee" as saying he disliked the idea of men wearing jewelry but he wore it to hide the scar on the wrist left over from his attempted suicide (another example of, let's say, questionable spycraft work). He had worn a watch over it but when the watch broke he used the bracelet to hide it.
This is the type of minutiae that non-conspiracy hobbyists read and conclude "These people are nuts!". They are often right. More than often.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12675495433/Keyqsg36488yu3q/oswald money.JPG)
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According to the evidence he had three dimes on him. Yes, breaking news. Morley makes people pay for material like this; I offer it for free.
I always found that ID bracelet odd. It had his name "Lee" on it; but he used a AJ Hiddell alias? Great spycraft work there, Lee. In any case, Marina is quoted in "Marina and Lee" as saying he disliked the idea of men wearing jewelry but he wore it to hide the scar on the wrist left over from his attempted suicide (another example of, let's say, questionable spycraft work). He had worn a watch over it but when the watch broke he used the bracelet to hide it.
This is the type of minutiae that non-conspiracy hobbyists read and conclude "These people are nuts!". They are often right. More than often.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12675495433/Keyqsg36488yu3q/oswald money.JPG)
According to the evidence he had three dimes on him.
Three dimes on him AFTER his arrest, yes. But we were talking about what he left the house with that morning, i.e. $15 in cash plus a dime.
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According to the evidence he had three dimes on him. Yes, breaking news. Morley makes people pay for material like this; I offer it for free.
Of course he had three dimes when arrested. What was nagging at me was him leaving the Paine house with $15 and what shall henceforth be known as the Carcano Dime. He leaves the TSBD, gives McWatters $1 for the 23-cent bus fare, receives 77 cents in change (half-dollar, two dimes, one nickel and two pennies), gives Whaley $1 and thus ends up with $13 plus the half-dollar, three dimes, one nickel and two pennies.
He would not have needed the Carcano Dime if he'd been carrying curtain rods. Voila, case closed.
But wait, did he also buy a coke in the TSBD? Well, maybe he had two dimes. Or maybe he didn't actually buy a coke - the encounter with Mrs. Reid is troubling to me in several respects, as it is to Bart Kamp as well: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/mrs-robert-reid/.[/quote]
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Of course he had three dimes when arrested. What was nagging at me was him leaving the Paine house with $15 and what shall henceforth be known as the Carcano Dime. He leaves the TSBD, gives McWatters $1 for the 23-cent bus fare, receives 77 cents in change (half-dollar, two dimes, one nickel and two pennies), gives Whaley $1 and thus ends up with $13 plus the half-dollar, three dimes, one nickel and two pennies.
He would not have needed the Carcano Dime if he'd been carrying curtain rods. Voila, case closed.
But wait, did he also buy a coke in the TSBD? Well, maybe he had two dimes. Or maybe he didn't actually buy a coke - the encounter with Mrs. Reid is troubling to me in several respects, as it is to Bart Kamp as well: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/mrs-robert-reid/.
LHO was apparently changing his appearance after each time being sighted. T-shirt in the sniper’s nest, brown shirt in the lunchroom, T-shirt in Mrs. Reid’s office area, brown shirt in the bus/cab, changed into a light colored jacket, etc in the rooming house room, ditched the jacket after leaving the Tippit murder scene. LHO was apparently trying to make it more difficult for anyone to track him (much like “The Fugitive” does in that TV show). Having the cab drop him off a bit past the rooming house was another similar tactic for trying to make it more difficult for anyone to track him.
BTW, I am guessing he tried to get rid of some evidence when he spent the actual Carcano dime on the Coke…. ;)
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LHO was apparently changing his appearance after each time being sighted. T-shirt in the sniper’s nest, brown shirt in the lunchroom, T-shirt in Mrs. Reid’s office area, brown shirt in the bus/cab, changed into a light colored jacket, etc in the rooming house room, ditched the jacket after leaving the Tippit murder scene. LHO was apparently trying to make it more difficult for anyone to track him (much like “The Fugitive” does in that TV show). Having the cab drop him off a bit past the rooming house was another similar tactic for trying to make it more difficult for anyone to track him.
BTW, I am guessing he tried to get rid of some evidence when he spent the actual Carcano dime on the Coke…. ;)
He wasn't pretending to be anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald, so "changing his appearance" between the lunchroom encounter and the encounter with Mrs. Reid, and then changing again before entering the bus, seems far-fetched. It's not clear to me what he would have gained by those gyrations. I can definitely understand changes at the rooming house - in fact, much bigger changes than he actually made (fake beard? Dallas Cowboys jacket?) if he'd really been planning ahead. My scenario has him in his white V-neck t-shirt during the shooting, slipping into his brown overshirt as he left the sixth floor, and Mrs. Reid simply not being a reliable witness. I don't know how many times I've spent all morning with my wife and then ended up looking for her in some store while thinking "What the hell was she wearing?"
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He wasn't pretending to be anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald, so "changing his appearance" between the lunchroom encounter and the encounter with Mrs. Reid, and then changing again before entering the bus, seems far-fetched. It's not clear to me what he would have gained by those gyrations. I can definitely understand changes at the rooming house - in fact, much bigger changes than he actually made (fake beard? Dallas Cowboys jacket?) if he'd really been planning ahead. My scenario has him in his white V-neck t-shirt during the shooting, slipping into his brown overshirt as he left the sixth floor, and Mrs. Reid simply not being a reliable witness. I don't know how many times I've spent all morning with my wife and then ended up looking for her in some store while thinking "What the hell was she wearing?"
What I think he was thinking is for example: If someone who didn’t know him (say Brennan, Edwards, or Fischer) reported a man in a light colored shirt shooting at JFK and LHO put on his dark shirt, then LHO wouldn’t match that description. Same thing with the light colored jacket at the Tippit murder scene. Just one of those ideas LHO appeared to have tried to use to make it harder for anyone to track him down.
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He wasn't pretending to be anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald, so "changing his appearance" between the lunchroom encounter and the encounter with Mrs. Reid, and then changing again before entering the bus, seems far-fetched. It's not clear to me what he would have gained by those gyrations. I can definitely understand changes at the rooming house - in fact, much bigger changes than he actually made (fake beard? Dallas Cowboys jacket?) if he'd really been planning ahead. My scenario has him in his white V-neck t-shirt during the shooting, slipping into his brown overshirt as he left the sixth floor, and Mrs. Reid simply not being a reliable witness. I don't know how many times I've spent all morning with my wife and then ended up looking for her in some store while thinking "What the hell was she wearing?"
My scenario has him in his white V-neck t-shirt during the shooting, slipping into his brown overshirt as he left the sixth floor...
Yes and Oswald most likely used the brown overshirt to wipe down the rifle as he made his way across the sixth floor which resulted in microscopic fibers lodging from the shirt into the crevice between the metal butt plate and the wooden stock of the rifle. These fibers were later found to match the shirt fibers.
Then, once the rifle is wiped down and hidden, Oswald puts the brown overshirt on as he descends the stairs.