JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 04:22:08 AM
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Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling / yawing when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
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Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
(https://i.ibb.co/Df5FbsQt/CE399-end-view.webp)
The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.
Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwC9z4B8/Expended-bullets.jpg)
JohnM
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Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance. See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).
-- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
-- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.
-- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.
-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.
-- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
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In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance.
What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?
Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?
If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?
No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?
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This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets were fired into cotton wadding at near muzzle velocity of the rifle.
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance. See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists at near muzzle velocity of the rifle. Dr. Joseph Dolce was not the Army's leading wound ballistics expert. Nor did he conduct the WC's SBT test.
"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472
-- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
The bullet was not tumbling through JFK's neck. It began tumbling upon exiting.
(https://i.imgur.com/K3hBFZg.png)
-- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.
Mr. FRAZIER - In each instance for these holes, the one through the button line and the one through the buttonhole line, the hole amounts to a ragged slit approximately one-half inch in height. It is oriented vertically, and the fibers of the cloth are protruding outward, that is, have been pushed from the inside out. I could not actually determine from the characteristics of the hole whether or not it was caused by a bullet. However, I can say that it was caused by a projectile of some type which exited from the shirt at that point and that is again assuming that when I first examined the shirt it was--it had not been altered from the condition it was in at the time the hole was made.
No metallic residue would be expected to be found around the exit hole.
-- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.
-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.
You are falsely assuming that the bullet would have had to pass though the middle of the tie knot.
Mr. FRAZIER - When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button.
Mr. SPECTER - As you now indicate on your own tie, you are indicating on the portion of the tie to your right?
Mr. FRAZIER - If it was on my tie it would be on the left side of the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Your left side.
Mr. FRAZIER - The left side of my tie. There is a nick on the left side of the tie if you consider it as left and right according to the person wearing the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Does the nick in the tie provide any indication of the direction of the missile?
Mr. FRAZIER - The nick is elongated horizontally, indicating a possible horizontal direction but it does not indicate that the projectile which caused it was exiting or entering at that point. The fibers were not disturbed in a characteristic manner which would permit any conclusion in that connection.
Mr. SPECTER - Is the nick consistent with an exiting path?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, yes.
-- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/pdf/fackler.pdf
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpeg)
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The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.
CE 399 didn't hit any bones in Connally because it was never in JFK. It never exited the shirt slits and could not have nicked the tie knot. Two Parkland medical staff confirmed that the nurses made the shirt slits, which is why no metallic traces were found around slits and why they had no fabric missing. This is not to mention that we have known for years now that the back wound had no exit point.
I'm just trying to fathom how you rationalize in your own mind your refusal to deal with the evidence that on the night of the autopsy the autopsy doctors positively, absolutely established that the back wound had no exit point. Even when trying to bend the facts to suit the lone-gunman theory, Humes was initially unwilling to say the throat wound was an exit wound for the back wound--instead, in a draft of the autopsy report, he said it was an exit hole for a fragment from the head shot.
And, FYI, the magic bullet would have had to smash Connally's fifth rib bone--specifically, to completely destroy 5 inches of that bone before ever reaching the radius bone in the wrist.
What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?
Lattimer's SBT test and the AAT SBT test prove this is a non-issue. And, again, even bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more damage than CE 399.
Also, I take it you still haven't bothered to watch the documentary Reasonable Doubt?
Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?
I think you need to do some homework before you discuss the SBT on a public forum again. I suggest you start with John Hunt's superb article:
Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?
You didn't say this. You referred to after the bullet exits. But, other SBT believers have argued that the magic bullet caused the damage on the tip of T1, which would have caused the bullet to start tumbling or at least yawing substantially.
Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?
Again, see Hunt's article, for starters.
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Griffith,
You're so full of KGB-approved beans, I can smell you from here.
The following is an excerpt from a post by Bill Roe at Quora eight months ago:
Even conspiracy advocate Dr. Cyril Wecht testified before the HSCA that he agreed a bullet entered Kennedy’s back and exited his throat. This would reasonably have caused it to begin tumbling or yawing (skewed) as it exited JFK and next entered Connally's back, causing an oblong round rather than a round that would be expected from a stable bullet entering straighter. Connally's oblong back entry wound is only consistent with a tumbling or yawing skewed bullet. Some have suggested the bullet was shot from a different angle that could also cause a similarly shaped entry wound but that would obviously have resulted in a very different path through Connally. The tumbling bullet would be expected to shed significant velocity as it passed through Connally's body, striking a rib before exiting an inch below his right nipple. Push on your own rib. The ribs are comparatively flexible so would not necessarily cause damage to the much harder full metal jacketed Carcano bullet. Dr. Shaw who operated on Connally's chest even explained the soft rib in his testimony and how the bullet struck the rib at a shallow angle and no metal was found in Connally's chest to indicate damage to the bullet from hitting the rib. The slowing bullet then exited Connally and entered and passed through Connally's wrist breaking the wrist bone before exiting and entering Connally's thigh where it stopped after penetrating only about a half inch. The main deformation to the bullet is at its base which is consistent with the bullet having rotated/tumbled as it passed through Connally which would slow the bullet.
As stated previously, bone will break at velocities as low as 163 fps which is consistent with a bullet shedding significant velocity as it passed through Kennedy and Connally. Obviously, there was little energy left after exiting the wrist since it caused only a shallow wound and fell out “somewhere" since it was not recovered in the OR.
Doctor Shaw who was operating on Connally said at a news conference while Connally was still in the OR that he believed all of Connally's wounds were from a single missile. The bullet passing through Kennedy only encountered soft tissue so would lose minimal speed. The Carcano bullet’s metal jacket would require significant force to become deformed. The damage to the back end of the bullet suggest it likely struck the wrist while at an angle rather than straight on further allowing it to rotate rather than deform. Still the bullet is noticeably deformed at its base and so must have struck bone. Note that no other bullet was recovered from Connally's shallow thigh wound so must have fallen out “somewhere”.
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All of the forensic pathologists for the HSCA including well-known Warren Commision critic Dr Cyril Wecht agreed that Kennedy was struck in the back by a bullet that exited his throat. Dr. Wecht continues to argue against the single bullet but offered no reasonable explanation for what became of the bullet after passing through Kennedy. It seems only logical that it would have had to strike Connally. Wecht misrepresents the relative positions of Kennedy and Connally in his presentations and also claims Connally was struck around frame 238 rather than 223 as we see in the Zapruder clip. Prior to the public availability of the Zapruder film, most people were only able to see still frames which can be more difficult to understand than the slow-motion clips we now are now able to better micro-analyze. I imagine many people remain unaware that a bullet can break bone at lower velocities and that a full metal jacket bullet will easily pass through tissue and deform minimally at those same lower velocities.
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Dr. Shaw, who operated on Governor Connally's chest wounds, testified that about four inches of a layer from the end of Connally's rib bone had been "stripped away" and would have caused very little defection to the bullet. He said that although the bullet struck near the forward end of the rib, it caused a fracture at the opposite end near where it attaches to the spine at the other end of the rib from where the bullet struck. He stated the bullet followed the rib's "line of inclination" meaning it was a glancing parallel hit or shallow angle along the side of the bone in the direction of the rib bone that he said "stripped away" about 10 cm (four inches) of rib, rather than a steep angle direct hit. Such a glancing blow on what Dr. Shaw described as "spongy" (flexible] area would not necessarily be expected to cause minimal if any deformation to a full metal jacked bullet.
Relevant quotes:
Dr. SHAW - The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.
He further explained how that portion of the rib that was stripped away is soft and “spongy" (flexible) suggesting it would not likely cause much deformation to a full metal jacketed (fmj) bullet which is designed with a hard metal layer that resists deformation.
Dr. SHAW - The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.
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There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
(https://i.ibb.co/Df5FbsQt/CE399-end-view.webp)
The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.
Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwC9z4B8/Expended-bullets.jpg)
JohnM
"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."
This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?
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"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."
This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?
So, what you are insinuating is John and everyone else does not know, but you do know what the bullet should look like to match the injuries. Especially given the wrist injury.
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Dr. John Lattimer's SBT test was actually fairly realistic, but, as was his habit, he misrepresented the results by falsely claiming that his test produced a bullet with the same minimal damage as CE 399.
For his SBT test, Lattimer used animal tissue to simulate Kennedy's neck, a rib cage to simulate Connally's torso, and radius bones wrapped in simulated forearms to simulate Connally's forearm. Lattimer said four bullets out of 20 struck all three objects. A picture of one of the test bullets shows it was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399. When Stewart Galanor asked Lattimer, in a filmed interview, if he could examine the bullets that struck all three simulation objects, Lattimer said he had thrown them away (Galanor, Cover-Up, New York: Kestrel Books, 1998, p. 42).
Or, let's take the 1967 CBS test when CBS hired Dr. Olivier to conduct a simulation of the SBT. The test was a complete sham because it simply ignored most of the damage that CE 399 supposedly did.
In a televised interview, Olivier admitted that his CBS test did not include striking a rib: "Of course, we have no rib here [in the test], but it still simulates passing through the flesh."
Olivier further admitted that even without simulating the damage to Connally's rib, some the bullets failed to exit the wrist: "In some cases, it passed through the wrist; in other cases it lodged in the wrist."
Crucially, not a single bullet in the CBS test managed to lodge in the simulated thigh.
A 12-inch gelatin block was used to simulate Connally's chest. By failing to put a simulated rib bone within this block, Olivier ensured that the test bullets would not become badly deformed while passing through the simulated chest. But this led to another complication: It meant the bullets would strike the simulated wrist at a greater velocity than the bullet presumed to have struck Connally's wrist--yet, even so, not one of the bullets lodged in the simulated thigh.
I should add that the CBS test also did not include passing through a human neck. Yes, that's right: The test made no effort to simulate the neck. Its bullets went straight into a simulated chest without first having to rip through a neck.
In 1968, a CBS producer named Stephen White wrote a book titled Should We Now Believe the Warren Report?, which brazenly misrepresented the CBS SBT test results, falsely claiming they proved the SBT was feasible. White also showed he knew little about wound ballistics.
White claimed "the Governor's chest wound was clearly caused by a bullet traveling at high velocity" (p. 71). But, the alleged murder file was a low-velocity weapon, as FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier admitted to the WC (3 H 414).
Incredibly, White claimed that CE 399 did not hit "a hard structure" during its alleged journey, bafflingly ignoring the fact that CE 399 supposedly destroyed 5 inches of rib bone and then smashed Connally's radius bone! Said White,
"A full-jacketed bullet, wholly sheathed in copper, which does not make direct impact
with hard structure can go a long way and do a good deal of damage without showing
much effect. . . . The bullet, with its tough protective shield, was never subjected to an
abrupt change of momentum. . . . There were at no time forces exerted upon it
sufficient to deform it to any great extent; merely continuous small forces which
robbed it bit by bit of its energy" (p 92).
White falsely claimed that "CBS News went to some great pains to recreate a part of the path taken by the bullet, using carefully measured blocks of gelatin to simulate the resistance offered by tissue, and other artifacts to represent clothing and bone structure." Was White just not aware that the test did not simulate the neck and the rib bone?
White then claimed that the CBS test proved the SBT was plausible. He wrote that under the circumstances people could not expect "precise results" from the CBS test, and that the "approximate answer" was "entirely consistent, within its margin of error, with the single-bullet theory." Right, so even though the test failed to simulate a human neck and a rib bone, and even though some of the bullets failed to exit the wrist, and even though not one of the bullets lodged in the thigh, the test was "entirely consistent" with the SBT!
In 2003, the Discovery Channel created a similar simulation, with similar results. Once again, a bullet, without being asked to strike any simulated ribs at the exit point of a simulated chest, bounced off a simulated thigh, yet the program declared that it duplicated the SBT.
Pat Speer explains why the failure of these tests is not surprising, noting that world-famous forensic pathologist Dr. Milton Helpern dismissed the SBT as abjectly impossible:
The failure of these tests, moreover, should come as no surprise. In 1967, in the book
Where Death Delights, Dr. Milton Helpern, a man who had supervised 10,000 autopsies
on gunshot victims, explained why these tests were doomed to failure. He said:
“The single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven
layers of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers
of tough, human skin, this bullet passed through other layers of soft tissue, and then
these shattered bones! I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what
Mr. Specter and the Commission have demanded of it."
And it's not as if Helpern was just blowing smoke. In 1987, in a much-discussed letter
to the International Defense Review, Dr. Martin Fackler gave substance to
Dr. Helpern's observations by reporting his conclusion that human skin had the approximate
resistance of four inches of muscle tissue. Yes, that's right. Seven layers of skin have the
resistance of 28 inches of muscle tissue. This suggests, then, that Olivier's tests for CBS
quite possibly under-represented the amount of resistance encountered by the so-called
magic bullet. (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter11thesingle-bullettheory)
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Given: 1) the varying velocities of CE-399 during its wounding of JFK and JBC, 2) the fact that that a bullet like CE-399 has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft, and 3) the fact that it had already passed through both JFK and JBC when it struck the radial bone in JBC's wrist, it's a fool's errand to try to duplicate the deformation that CE-399 sustained.
We can be confident, however, that CE-399 was already tumbling when it wounded JBC because it left an oblong entrance wound in his back.
And we can be confident that CE-399 was still tumbling when it penetrated JBC's wrist because it carried fibers from the margin of JBC's right suit sleeve into the wound, i.e., the round-nosed bullet must have penetrated the wrist backwards and carried said fibers into the wound with its squared-off base.
The damage to Connally's wrist would have been much greater (perhaps even requiring amputation) if it had been hit straight-on by a bullet travelling some 2000 feet-per-second, and the deformation to said bullet would have been significantly different (e.g., the nose would have been smashed).
And oh, yeah, CE-399 does have Oswald's Carcano's marks on it.
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CE 399 does not really “add credibility” to the SBT. CE 399 is “arguably not inconsistent with” the SBT. It would add more credibility to the SBT if it were far more extensively and plausibly damaged and its provenance were certain (e.g., it had been found lodged in Connally’s thigh at Parkland or on his seat in the limo). When we combine the startling condition of CE 399 with its uncertain provenance and the inherent implausibility of the SBT – well, sure, it’s way more of a problem for the LN narrative than a more damaged bullet lodged in JBC's thigh would have been.
I used to fire all sorts of guns at bottles and cans in a riverbed where the bullets lodged in a sand bank behind them. Sometimes we'd dig out the bullets just to see what they looked like. It was often very surprising how badly deformed they were. On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.
The biggest selling point of CE 399, it seems to me, is the connection to Oswald’s rifle. Assuming that CE 399 was indeed fired from Oswald’s rifle, then if the SBT isn’t correct we are quickly in the realm of an elaborate and implausible (to me) conspiracy. If CE 399 were a fake, what sort of Three Stooges conspirators would have produced a fake that looked so implausibly pristine and raised so many questions? How many shots would you have to fire to produce a bullet with that particular damage - 100 or more? And how would you know, before the JFKA or within a few hours thereafter, that you "needed" such a fake? And, unless you were in fact the Three Stooges, why would you ever have allowed a conspiracy scenario where the need for such a fake was even possible?
The SBT has survived 62 years of scrutiny, with enough medical, ballistics and forensics experts concurring with it, that it’s simply silly to say the SBT is "impossible." Yes, other experts have said this and tried to prove it, but to me the SBT, warts and all, stands as "implausible but possible" and probably the most likely explanation. To me, there are and always will be too many unknowns ever to say the SBT is definitely correct or definitely impossible. In the context of all else we know, it's a reasonable explanation.
What I don’t understand is why the debate continues on forums such as this, as though someone were going to say something new or startling at this point. I looked closely at the Knott Laboratory's study, and it seems to me to make assumptions about things that can’t possibly be known with the precision Knott claims. It was commissioned, moreover, by John Orr, who has been on an obsessive anti-SBT crusade for more than 30 years. I wonder how many people know that Orr’s theory, at least in 2013, had Oswald firing both the shot that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat and a separate shot that hit Connally in the back, as well as a third shot that missed; the head shot was (Orr says) a professional on top of what I take to be the Dal-Tex building. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/how-i-investigated-president-john-f-kennedys-assassination. It’s difficult to believe that the paying client being a longtime anti-SBT crusader like Orr had no effect on Knott’s work.
In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott. I found this comment at the Ed Forum by Tom Gram, who is certainly a sane and thorough researcher and who seems to share my concerns about the "precision" perhaps being more illusory than real.
The issue I think is that the limo and human models are just photogrammetry using the Zapruder film; so basically Dale Myers, and a few things don’t look particularly accurate. They have JFK way over on the edge of the car with his arm hanging over, shots at Z210 and Z225 which seems like an odd choice of frames for 2023, etc. etc.
One thing I’m surprised no one has commented on is it looks like they have the back wound positioned below the shoulder line and coming right out of the official exit on JFK’s neck. In that sense their model seems to support the SBT more than refute it.
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In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott.
Have you read the actual Knott study? The full study, not a synopsis of it. If so, where can it be read?
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Have you read the actual Knott study? The full study, not a synopsis of it. If so, where can it be read?
No, I have been puzzled by this myself. I have Googled extensively and have (I think) read everything Knott has put out, but I have not seen the actual study. Pat Speer wrote that he understood there had been a falling out between Orr and Knott. Is it possible Orr owns the rights? It seems very odd that Knott does all this self-promotion but never actually says (as far as I can tell), "You can read the full study HERE."
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Long thread at the Ed Forum that isn't too kind to the Knott/Orr project: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29880-%E2%80%9Cnew-evidence%E2%80%9D-why-the-sbt-is-impossible-so-says-the-video/page/2/
Larry Schnapf said this, which suggests there is no "study," just the dubious animation:
Knott Labs was hired by John Orr to develop photogrammetry for a 3D animation of DP. Orr provided the details and instructions to Knott to do a bare-bones 3D animation that focused on two frames of the Z-film. Stoll-the CEO of KL- knew very little about the assassination and to this day continues to make serious mistakes when discussing the assassination, the project and the implications of the project.
After the initial 3D animation was completed in 2018, John Orr and I formed a limited partnership to fund further work on this project. We subequently parted ways with KL when the person who worked on the project left KL. We have continued to revise the animation and are close to finishing it.
Stoll/KL is promoting an old version of the animation and I would not put much credence in anything Stoll or KL says. -FWIW
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CE 399 does not really “add credibility” to the SBT. CE 399 is “arguably not inconsistent with” the SBT. It would add more credibility to the SBT if it were far more extensively and plausibly damaged and its provenance were certain (e.g., it had been found lodged in Connally’s thigh at Parkland or on his seat in the limo). When we combine the startling condition of CE 399 with its uncertain provenance and the inherent implausibility of the SBT – well, sure, it’s way more of a problem for the LN narrative than a more damaged bullet lodged in JBC's thigh would have been.
I used to fire all sorts of guns at bottles and cans in a riverbed where the bullets lodged in a sand bank behind them. Sometimes we'd dig out the bullets just to see what they looked like. It was often very surprising how badly deformed they were. On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.
The biggest selling point of CE 399, it seems to me, is the connection to Oswald’s rifle. Assuming that CE 399 was indeed fired from Oswald’s rifle, then if the SBT isn’t correct we are quickly in the realm of an elaborate and implausible (to me) conspiracy. If CE 399 were a fake, what sort of Three Stooges conspirators would have produced a fake that looked so implausibly pristine and raised so many questions? How many shots would you have to fire to produce a bullet with that particular damage - 100 or more? And how would you know, before the JFKA or within a few hours thereafter, that you "needed" such a fake? And, unless you were in fact the Three Stooges, why would you ever have allowed a conspiracy scenario where the need for such a fake was even possible?
The SBT has survived 62 years of scrutiny, with enough medical, ballistics and forensics experts concurring with it, that it’s simply silly to say the SBT is "impossible." Yes, other experts have said this and tried to prove it, but to me the SBT, warts and all, stands as "implausible but possible" and probably the most likely explanation. To me, there are and always will be too many unknowns ever to say the SBT is definitely correct or definitely impossible. In the context of all else we know, it's a reasonable explanation.
What I don’t understand is why the debate continues on forums such as this, as though someone were going to say something new or startling at this point. I looked closely at the Knott Laboratory's study, and it seems to me to make assumptions about things that can’t possibly be known with the precision Knott claims. It was commissioned, moreover, by John Orr, who has been on an obsessive anti-SBT crusade for more than 30 years. I wonder how many people know that Orr’s theory, at least in 2013, had Oswald firing both the shot that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat and a separate shot that hit Connally in the back, as well as a third shot that missed; the head shot was (Orr says) a professional on top of what I take to be the Dal-Tex building. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/how-i-investigated-president-john-f-kennedys-assassination. It’s difficult to believe that the paying client being a longtime anti-SBT crusader like Orr had no effect on Knott’s work.
In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott. I found this comment at the Ed Forum by Tom Gram, who is certainly a sane and thorough researcher and who seems to share my concerns about the "precision" perhaps being more illusory than real.
The issue I think is that the limo and human models are just photogrammetry using the Zapruder film; so basically Dale Myers, and a few things don’t look particularly accurate. They have JFK way over on the edge of the car with his arm hanging over, shots at Z210 and Z225 which seems like an odd choice of frames for 2023, etc. etc.
One thing I’m surprised no one has commented on is it looks like they have the back wound positioned below the shoulder line and coming right out of the official exit on JFK’s neck. In that sense their model seems to support the SBT more than refute it.
On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.
If I remember correctly, and we are talking about the same documentary, it was practically 3-feet penetration.
Another thing that might astonish folks is the fact that a very similar rifle that shoots ammo with very similar characteristics and ballistics was one of three favorite rifles of W.D.M. Bell, who killed about 300 African elephants with it. This is one of his books. It can be had (as a kindle version) on Amazon for chump change.
(https://i.vgy.me/EzEb4x.jpg)
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No, I have been puzzled by this myself. I have Googled extensively and have (I think) read everything Knott has put out, but I have not seen the actual study. Pat Speer wrote that he understood there had been a falling out between Orr and Knott. Is it possible Orr owns the rights? It seems very odd that Knott does all this self-promotion but never actually says (as far as I can tell), "You can read the full study HERE."
I doubt that a fully detailed study by them exists. Certainly not one like that of the ITEK film analysis of 1976. In their synopsis, Knott says that Connally would have had to be seated 10" inboard of Kennedy at Z225 for the SBT to work.They tell us that they ruled that out through their photogrammetry process but they don't tell us just how far inboard that they determined that Connally was. We're also not told by them what copy of Zapruder film that they used or what other photos that they used. In their video animation, they have Connally turned just barely to the right, when in reality his torso was rotated between 30 and 37 degrees at Z223. 30 degrees of right rotation moved the point of entry on Connally's back about 3 inches to the left. So, when you use the range given by ITEK(6.4"+/-2.2") plus the right rotation of Connally, the lateral angle of the SBT can be made to work.
Michael Griffith and Royell Storing both claim that the Knott Lab study is the most thorough, sophisticated, and scientific SBT trajectory analysis ever done. Griffith adds that "No previous analysis even comes close to matching the depth and sophistication of the Knott Lab analysis". Yet, when asked to provide particulars of the study they clam up. Neither of them will say if they read a full detailed study by Knott Lab on the SBT.
(https://i.imgur.com/eTjfbnX.png)
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Long thread at the Ed Forum that isn't too kind to the Knott/Orr project: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29880-%E2%80%9Cnew-evidence%E2%80%9D-why-the-sbt-is-impossible-so-says-the-video/page/2/
Larry Schnapf said this, which suggests there is no "study," just the dubious animation:
Knott Labs was hired by John Orr to develop photogrammetry for a 3D animation of DP. Orr provided the details and instructions to Knott to do a bare-bones 3D animation that focused on two frames of the Z-film. Stoll-the CEO of KL- knew very little about the assassination and to this day continues to make serious mistakes when discussing the assassination, the project and the implications of the project.
After the initial 3D animation was completed in 2018, John Orr and I formed a limited partnership to fund further work on this project. We subequently parted ways with KL when the person who worked on the project left KL. We have continued to revise the animation and are close to finishing it.
Stoll/KL is promoting an old version of the animation and I would not put much credence in anything Stoll or KL says. -FWIW
There are some real crazies over there. Varnell might not even be the looniest. I don't understand why Pat Speer feels the need to cater to them. He calls the SBT a hoax. His take on the theory is flawed. In reading his chapter on the SBT, I had a brief moment of doubt on my own stand on it. After measuring the lengths of my own ears, that doubt went away. I now think of Pat as Pat "Small Ears" Speer. ;D
I do like and respect Larry Schnapf.
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What is confusing to me is the notion that an MC 6.5 mm ball nosed bullet , spinning end over end at a reduced velocity of 900 ft/sec can go thru a wrist bone and hand also. I do not there has been any experiment which replicated this end over end spinning AS the bullet strikes a human cadaver wrist bone and exiting palm of hand which proves the minimal flaking at the nose end of an MC bullet similar to CE 399.
It may be that there is some misinterpretation with the description of the bullet “ tumbling” when in fact , it may be that it was more like “wobbling”. IE: instead of the bullet spinning end over end in the vertical plane, the bullet instead had its horizontal axis spin just slightly off center thus the bullet when it hit the wrist bone was still traveling nose first , but with a wobbling” spin.
I think a good example of the wobbling effect is the 5.56 mm type bullet designed for the AR-15/ M-16 rifles. It’s purposely designed to wobble slightly about its trajectory line axis so as increase probability of causing more internal damage to a human body on impact, as opposed to the typical conical shaped hunting bullets designed to penetrate completely thru a human or animal body.
And as I recall, the MC 6.5 mm ball nosed bullet was designed to penetrate thru a human body (including skull). At least one experiment has demonstrated that the 6.5 mm bullet can go thru two replica human torsos and continue on afterwards at a velocity of approx 900 ft/sec.
In conclusion, the very slight minimal flake damage on the nose end of the CE 399 6.5mm MC bullet, is the real issue that CTs have criticized as improbable if the bullet impacts the wrist bone and hand of a human , given the end over end “tumbling” description by conventional WC advocates. Therefore, it maybe that an experiment with a “wobbling” MC 6.5 mm bullet fired at 900 ft/sec velocity directly into a human cadaver wrist , such that the nose end of the bullet impacts the wrist bone, will produce a bullet more similar to CE 399 with resultant minimal flaking at the nose end.
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It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?
So, what you are insinuating is John and everyone else does not know, but you do know what the bullet should look like to match the injuries. Especially given the wrist injury.
I'm just asking a simple question - what evidence supports the claim that the condition of CE399 "matches the injuries"?
What is the evidence?
Is there any?
Is it just an empty, unsupported claim?
The reason I ask this question is because,according to the Warren Commission, this is what a bullet looks like that's been fired into a wrist bone:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wb81kQP/jbcwristbulletce856.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I'm sure you'll agree, it looks nothing like CE399.
And this is what a wrist bone looks like that has had a bullet fired through it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqkH16mv/jbcwristhole.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I'm sure you'll agree that this looks nothing like JBC's wrist injury.
It makes sense that a bullet passing through the bone would leave a hole where it passed through. What mental gymnastics can be employed to explain this most obvious discrepancy?
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0nMbcYF/jbcwrist-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The lack of hole through JBC's wrist bone indicates that a bullet has not passed through it.
We can determine where the bullet struck the bone as it creates a jagged kind of "X" shape with the fractured pieces of bone. But there's no hole for a bullet to pass through.
Also note the small cluster of metallic fragments.
In the LN version of events, these pieces of metal where deposited from the base of the bullet as it passed through JBC's wrist, the argument being that the bullet was tumbling ( ::)) and entered the wrist injury base-first (even though it was tumbling it also entered his thigh injury base-first.)
If that were the case then this cluster of metallic pieces would be found where the bullet struck the bone (the "X").
As we can see, this is not the case with JBC's wrist injury. This metallic cluster is nowhere near where the bullet struck the bone (relatively speaking).
I am simply asking, what is the evidence supporting the claim that the deformation of CE399 "matches the injuries"?
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I'm just asking a simple question - what evidence supports the claim that the condition of CE399 "matches the injuries"?
What is the evidence?
Is there any?
Is it just an empty, unsupported claim?
The reason I ask this question is because,according to the Warren Commission, this is what a bullet looks like that's been fired into a wrist bone:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wb81kQP/jbcwristbulletce856.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I'm sure you'll agree, it looks nothing like CE399.
This is what a bullet looks like that's been fired into a wrist bone:
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpeg)
I'm sure you'll agree, it looks somewhat like CE-399.
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This is what a bullet looks like that's been fired into a wrist bone:
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpeg)
I'm sure you'll agree, it looks somewhat like CE-399.
Hi Tim, I saw your earlier post with these pics and the link to the work of Martin Fackler but it didn't have those pics there.
Are the two things connected?
DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONS
Our purpose was to prove the fallacy in the claim of the "conspiracy theorists" that the human radius near its end could not be perforated by a FMJ bullet without causing that bullet to be deformed. Our results show clearly the fallacy in this claim."
So, the stated purpose of the experiment was to disprove the claims of certain CTers.
Hmmmm...
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Hi Tim, I saw your earlier post with these pics and the link to the work of Martin Fackler but it didn't have those pics there.
Are the two things connected?
DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONS
Our purpose was to prove the fallacy in the claim of the "conspiracy theorists" that the human radius near its end could not be perforated by a FMJ bullet without causing that bullet to be deformed. Our results show clearly the fallacy in this claim."
So, the stated purpose of the experiment was to disprove the claims of certain CTers.
Hmmmm...
That is one of the two bullets that they recovered. Fackler already knew that the human radius near its end could be perforated by a FMJ bullet without causing that bullet to be deformed. The test was just to demonstrate that it could.
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That is one of the two bullets that they recovered. Fackler already knew that the human radius near its end could be perforated by a FMJ bullet without causing that bullet to be deformed. The test was just to demonstrate that it could.
The pictures you've posted of the truly pristine bullet does not appear anywhere in the journal which you provided a link for - https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/1995-Vol2No2.pdf
I was just wondering where the pics are from and how they relate to the experiment Fackler carried out as "a useful confirmation of the work done by Dr John Lattimer".
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The pictures you've posted of the truly pristine bullet does not appear anywhere in the journal which you provided a link for - https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/1995-Vol2No2.pdf
I was just wondering where the pics are from and how they relate to the experiment Fackler carried out as "a useful confirmation of the work done by Dr John Lattimer".
I got the composite photo from McAdams' site some years ago. I had thought that Gus Russo had published it in his "Live by the Sword" but that doesn't seem to be the case.
From Fackler's testimony during the 1992 mock trial:
"The bullet actually made a slightly greater hole than the one in Governor Connally's wrist. That's because the experiment bullet was actually going a little faster than the 900 feet [per second] that CE399 was travelling. The test bullet was non-deformed. It was not flattened in the least and had nowhere near the damage of CE399."
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Dr. Fackler's 1992 Report....
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11_V0fGaOGHupUb_CK0FCpCs1buM-o7e-/view
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Related Discussions....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1157.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#CE399
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Dr. Fackler's 1992 Report....
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11_V0fGaOGHupUb_CK0FCpCs1buM-o7e-/view
This is downright comical and is so typical of the phony tests that people like Fackler will conduct to try to salvage the SBT.
First of all, not one of Fackler's test bullets passed through a simulated human neck and then destroyed 5 inches of rib bone while tearing through a simulated human chest before striking the cadaver radius bones. Not one. Let me repeat that so the phony nature of Fackler's test can sink in: Fackler made no effort to simulate a human neck, a human chest, and a rib bone. Not one of his bullets hit anything before they hit the cadaver radius bones. Fackler simply shot cadaver radius bones with bullets whose velocity had been lowered down to 1100-1300 FPS!
Are you kidding me? How can anyone cite this test with a straight face? Did you or any other SBT believer even bother to actually read Fackler's article on his SBT test? How, David, did you miss the fact that none of his test bullets hit anything before hitting the cadaver wrists?
Of course, Fackler rigged the test because he knew full well that if his test bullets first had to transit a human neck and then tear through a human chest and demolish 5 inches of rib bone in the process, the bullets would emerge markedly deformed, just as they did in the AAT test and in Lattimer's test.
I repeat again:
-- In Dr. Dolce's SBT test for the WC, even 6.5 mm FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformity than CE 399.
-- In the 1967 CBS test, not one of the 6.5 mm FMJ bullets that merely passed through the 12-inch gelatin block before hitting cadaver wrists never had enough velocity to penetrate the simulated thigh, and some of them never even managed to exit the wrists.
-- In the 1992 AAT SBT test, a 6.5 mm FMJ bullet was fired into two gelatin blocks. The second gelatin block contained animal bones to simulate the shattering of a rib bone and the smashing of a wrist bone. The bullet transited the first gelatin block and penetrated deep into the second block and struck the animal bones. It emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.
-- In Lattimer's SBT test, one of the test bullets was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399, and this wasn't even one of the bullets that struck all three simulation objects! Lattimer threw away all the bullets that hit all three simulation objects. Gee, I wonder why.
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This is downright comical and is so typical of the phony tests that people like Fackler will conduct to try to salvage the SBT.
First of all, not one of Fackler's test bullets passed through a simulated human neck and then destroyed 5 inches of rib bone while tearing through a simulated human chest before striking the cadaver radius bones. Not one. Let me repeat that so the phony nature of Fackler's test can sink in: Fackler made no effort to simulate a human neck, a human chest, and a rib bone. Not one of his bullets hit anything before they hit the cadaver radius bones. Fackler simply shot cadaver radius bones with bullets whose velocity had been lowered down to 1100-1300 FPS!
Are you kidding me? How can anyone cite this test with a straight face? Did you or any other SBT believer even bother to actually read Fackler's article on his SBT test? How, David, did you miss the fact that none of his test bullets hit anything before hitting the cadaver wrists?
Of course, Fackler rigged the test because he knew full well that if his test bullets first had to transit a human neck and then tear through a human chest and demolish 5 inches of rib bone in the process, the bullets would emerge markedly deformed, just as they did in the AAT test and in Lattimer's test.
I repeat again:
-- In Dr. Dolce's SBT test for the WC, even 6.5 mm FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformity than CE 399.
-- In the 1967 CBS test, not one of the 6.5 mm FMJ bullets that merely passed through the 12-inch gelatin block before hitting cadaver wrists never had enough velocity to penetrate the simulated thigh, and some of them never even managed to exit the wrists.
-- In the 1992 AAT SBT test, a 6.5 mm FMJ bullet was fired into two gelatin blocks. The second gelatin block contained animal bones to simulate the shattering of a rib bone and the smashing of a wrist bone. The bullet transited the first gelatin block and penetrated deep into the second block and struck the animal bones. It emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.
-- In Lattimer's SBT test, one of the test bullets was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399, and this wasn't even one of the bullets that struck all three simulation objects! Lattimer threw away all the bullets that hit all three simulation objects. Gee, I wonder why.
I should add that Fackler's phony SBT test also failed to include a simulated human thigh and made no effort to see if any of his test bullets could penetrate a human thigh after shattering a cadaver radius bone.
Yet, SBT believers still cite Fackler's bogus test as "evidence" that the SBT is credible. Some even go further into fiction and claim that Fackler's test "proves" the SBT is true.
This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with a loss of only 3-4 grains from its substance, and (2) to conduct a realistic SBT test. The other FPP members never did present a single case that resembled the SBT, and they refused to conduct an SBT test.
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I should add that Fackler's phony SBT test also failed to include a simulated human thigh and made no effort to see if any of his test bullets could penetrate a human thigh after shattering a cadaver radius bone.
Yet, SBT believers still cite Fackler's bogus test as "evidence" that the SBT is credible. Some even go further into fiction and claim that Fackler's test "proves" the SBT is true.
This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with a loss of only 3-4 grains from its substance, and (2) to conduct a realistic SBT test. The other FPP members never did present a single case that resembled the SBT, and they refused to conduct an SBT test.
This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399
Can it be assumed that Wecht's challenge would be specific to bullets designed similar to the carcano bullet with all the same flight characteristics before and after striking various mediums.
Didn’t the carcano hit on several sides instead of all impacts occurring just directly point on. Is that not the reason that the bullet looks the way it does?
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This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399
Can it be assumed that Wecht's challenge would be specific to bullets designed similar to the carcano bullet with all the same flight characteristics before and after striking various mediums.
Yes. As I said, "to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399" and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and losing only 3-4 grains of its substance.
Didn’t the carcano hit on several sides instead of all impacts occurring just directly point on. Is that not the reason that the bullet looks the way it does?
The bullet that hit Connally's back destroyed 5 inches of rib bone before it exited his chest and before it allegedly smashed his right radius bone, exited the radius bone, and penetrated his left thigh. No bullet in any SBT test has done such damage and emerged looking anything like CE 399.
Even in the 1967 CBS SBT test, FMJ bullets that merely penetrated a 12-inch gelatin block before hitting a cadaver radius bone were unable to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. One of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).
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Yes. As I said, "to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399" and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and losing only 3-4 grains of its substance.
The bullet that hit Connally's back destroyed 5 inches of rib bone before it exited his chest and before it allegedly smashed his right radius bone, exited the radius bone, and penetrated his left thigh. No bullet in any SBT test has done such damage and emerged looking anything like CE 399.
Even in the 1967 CBS SBT test, FMJ bullets that merely penetrated a 12-inch gelatin block before hitting a cadaver radius bone were unable to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. One of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).
Sounds incredible but it really did happen. There has to be reasons it did take place.
Is there another case or is this the only one? If you know of another one cite it.
Shooting a bullet full on into a wrist instead of yawing and tumbling produced what result?? Didn’t the bullet peel off the flesh along the rib bone while sliding sideways and then exited the chest sideways before it crashed into the wrist?
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Sounds incredible but it really did happen. There has to be reasons it did take place.
Is there another case or is this the only one? If you know of another one cite it.
Shooting a bullet full on into a wrist instead of yawing and tumbling produced what result?? Didn’t the bullet peel off the flesh along the rib bone while sliding sideways and then exited the chest sideways before it crashed into the wrist?
Think about what you're saying: If a bullet sliding sideways scraped a rib bone hard enough to destroy 5 inches of the bone, the bullet's lands and grooves would certainly suffer at least some deformation. Yet, CE 399's lands and grooves remained intact.
Beyond that, ask yourself, How would a bullet entering the back at a perpendicular angle manage to suddenly slide sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone? And how would such a bullet then exit the chest after traveling sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone for 5 inches? A modern guided missile would find it impossible to perform such a feat of sudden turns in such a comparatively short space.
CBS and Fackler knew that including cadaver rib bones in their SBT tests would produce deformed bullets, which is why they ensured that their tests did not include such bones. At least the CBS SBT test included a simulated human thigh, but not a single one of their bullets penetrated the thigh, and some of them didn't even leave the cadaver wrists, even though they didn't have to shatter 5 inches of rib bone before striking the wrists.
Again, in the WC's wound ballistics SBT test, even FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
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Think about what you're saying: If a bullet sliding sideways scraped a rib bone hard enough to destroy 5 inches of the bone, the bullet's lands and grooves would certainly suffer at least some deformation. Yet, CE 399's lands and grooves remained intact.
Beyond that, ask yourself, How would a bullet entering the back at a perpendicular angle manage to suddenly slide sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone? And how would such a bullet then exit the chest after traveling sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone for 5 inches? A modern guided missile would find it impossible to perform such a feat of sudden turns in such a comparatively short space.
CBS and Fackler knew that including cadaver rib bones in their SBT tests would produce deformed bullets, which is why they ensured that their tests did not include such bones. At least the CBS SBT test included a simulated human thigh, but not a single one of their bullets penetrated the thigh, and some of them didn't even leave the cadaver wrists, even though they didn't have to shatter 5 inches of rib bone before striking the wrists.
Again, in the WC's wound ballistics SBT test, even FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
So, you are thinking if LHO had been in a slightly different location, then the different bullet’s trajectory through JFK’s neck would have placed the bullet striking JBC in a different location and resulting in striking a much thicker rib bone than the thin fifth rib and changing the resulting damage to the bullet?
The bullet exiting JBC’s chest relatively intact is not your issue? Your thinking a jacketed metal bullet should have the identifying marks wiped clean while sliding along soft bone? The bullet then proceeded to the wrist at a much-reduced speed. It still had enough momentum to pass through the wrist again at an angle or even backwards and then barely embedded itself in his thigh. You have a problem with this why? How should the bullet have looked?
Your only issue with this is how the bullet looked, even though it is obviously deformed?
The biggest problem with this whole train of thought is when conducting tests how do you fire a bullet out of a barrel of a rifle at a reduced velocity and also sideways or various angles to boot to be able to duplicate the deformation of the bullet along with the various injuries sustained?
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So, you are thinking if LHO had been in a slightly different location, then the different bullet’s trajectory through JFK’s neck would have placed the bullet striking JBC in a different location and resulting in striking a much thicker rib bone than the thin fifth rib and changing the resulting damage to the bullet?
No bullet exited JFK's throat. We know that because there was no hole through JFK's tie. No bullet exiting the shirt slits could have missed tearing through the middle of the bottom part of the tie knot, and no bullet could have magically weaved around the body of the knot to nick the top of the knot near the knot's left edge. That is Alice in Wonderland material.
We also know that no bullet exited the slits. Three Parkland doctors confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar/tie, so the slits could not have been the exit point in the shirt for a bullet exiting the throat wound. Also, no fabric was missing from the slits, and no metallic traces were found them. One of the Parkland nurses confirmed that the nurses made the slits, which explains why the jagged edges of a sharp scalpel can be seen in the slits under high magnification, as confirmed by Weisberg and then by Mantik.
The 2023 Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, proves the SBT is impossible.
Are you familiar with any of the considerable evidence, including new evidence developed by Barry Ernest, that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting but was downstairs eating lunch and watching the motorcade, just as he told the police?
The bullet exiting JBC’s chest relatively intact is not your issue? Your thinking a jacketed metal bullet should have the identifying marks wiped clean while sliding along soft bone? The bullet then proceeded to the wrist at a much-reduced speed. It still had enough momentum to pass through the wrist again at an angle or even backwards and then barely embedded itself in his thigh. You have a problem with this why? How should the bullet have looked?
Did you simply forget the facts I've pointed out in my previous four replies when you wrote this? Every single SBT wound ballistics test has failed to duplicate the SBT, either because they failed to simulate key parts of the bullet's alleged journey or because the bullets emerged much more deformed than CE 399. Furthermore, no one has yet produced a single documented forensic case where a bullet did the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged in the same condition.
Your only issue with this is how the bullet looked, even though it is obviously deformed?
Seriously? Please re-read my previous four replies. CE 399 is only slightly deformed at its base. Its nose is pristine. Its lands and grooves are intact. It is missing only 3-4 grains of its substance. Deep down, somewhere in your mind, you must know that no bullet could emerge in this condition after penetrating seven layers of skin, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering a radius bone.
The biggest problem with this whole train of thought is when conducting tests how do you fire a bullet out of a barrel of a rifle at a reduced velocity and also sideways or various angles to boot to be able to duplicate the deformation of the bullet along with the various injuries sustained?
Again, did you simply forget the facts I've presented in my previous replies when you wrote your response? You simply refuse to consider cold hard facts that destroy your SBT fantasy.
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So if CE 399 is not the bullet that hit both JFK and JC per what appears to be happening in the Z film (fromZ224 to Z230) then the bullet must have been another bullet fired from some other rifle than an MC rifle.
Other than those 3 shells found in the SN which are supposedly fired from the MC rifle that was found on the 6th floor TSBD, there’s really no evidence that any MC bullet actually hit JFK or JC is there?
Has it been established beyond reasonable doubt that the trail of very small fragments in the JFK lateral skull X-ray are MC bullet fragments?
And since for some reason no photos were taken of several larger size fragments said to be found in the JFK limo on the floorboard as they were laying before they were picked up, introduces some doubt if those fragments were ever actually there. Chain of custody problem here.
Since there’s the premise that a professional sniper would not likely choose to shoot from a high window at a moving target when he could have chosen a much easier place to take a shot at a stationary JFK giving a speech, then the CT is left with question why did the conspirator shooter(s) choose the more difficult TSBD high 6th floor moving target scenario?
The answer would seem to be that it was because Oswald was chosen as a patsy for whatever reason. Thus the pro had to do the shooting from a floor of TSBD which was available, which turned out to be the 6th floor due to absence of TSBD employees ( except for the unexpected Bonnie Ray Williams at around 12:15)
The pro snipers primary mission though was to make sure JFK was terminated, so he chose his own favorite precision rifle, while preplanting the MC rifle, since this moving target scenario was difficult enough even for a precision rifle expert, let alone if he were to use an unfamiliar POS rifle with poor quality scope.
The pro sniper fired 2 shots that hit and fired a 3rd shot just after Z313 while keeping his rifle barrel stuck out the window several seconds . He did that to maximize the rifle being seen in the SE 6th floor window of TSBD, where the sniper would leave 3 shells that previously had been fired from the MC rifle that he had preplanted in the boxes near the rear staircase.
All this, because for whatever reason, whether due to contract or due to personal vendetta, the professional conspirator gunmans secondary objective was to set to up Oswald as the suspect assassin.
That’s all folks :)
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No bullet exited JFK's throat. We know that because there was no hole through JFK's tie. No bullet exiting the shirt slits could have missed tearing through the middle of the bottom part of the tie knot, and no bullet could have magically weaved around the body of the knot to nick the top of the knot near the knot's left edge. That is Alice in Wonderland material.
We also know that no bullet exited the slits. Three Parkland doctors confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar/tie, so the slits could not have been the exit point in the shirt for a bullet exiting the throat wound. Also, no fabric was missing from the slits, and no metallic traces were found them. One of the Parkland nurses confirmed that the nurses made the slits, which explains why the jagged edges of a sharp scalpel can be seen in the slits under high magnification, as confirmed by Weisberg and then by Mantik.
The 2023 Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, proves the SBT is impossible.
Are you familiar with any of the considerable evidence, including new evidence developed by Barry Ernest, that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting but was downstairs eating lunch and watching the motorcade, just as he told the police?
Did you simply forget the facts I've pointed out in my previous four replies when you wrote this? Every single SBT wound ballistics test has failed to duplicate the SBT, either because they failed to simulate key parts of the bullet's alleged journey or because the bullets emerged much more deformed than CE 399. Furthermore, no one has yet produced a single documented forensic case where a bullet did the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged in the same condition.
Seriously? Please re-read my previous four replies. CE 399 is only slightly deformed at its base. Its nose is pristine. Its lands and grooves are intact. It is missing only 3-4 grains of its substance. Deep down, somewhere in your mind, you must know that no bullet could emerge in this condition after penetrating seven layers of skin, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering a radius bone.
Again, did you simply forget the facts I've presented in my previous replies when you wrote your response? You simply refuse to consider cold hard facts that destroy your SBT fantasy.
Two entrance wounds and no exit wounds. Seems like quite a problem given the xray results produced not a single bullet was present. Those ice bullets are everywhere in your stories. Do you have a patent on them?
Knotts Lab of course. They would know.
Is Barry Ernest the latest dufus clown expert wannebe?
Except for all the deformities the bullet is pristine? What HSCA forensics expert stated that was like being a little pregnant. Right, it was Dr Baden
Dr. BADEN. Yes, sir. Absolutely, but with qualification . We on the medical panel have certain problems, as have other doctors in the past, in evaluating the injuries produced by the so-called "pristine 308 bullet", which is a media term that is inaccurate: it is like being a little bit pregnant-it is either pristine or it is not pristine. This is a damaged bullet and this is not a pristine bullet. This is a bullet that is deformed; it would be very difficult to take a hammer and flatten it to the degree that this is flattened. This is a partially deformed bullet with a heavy jacket. The problem is that although in New York City we see more than 1,000 gunshot wound deaths a year, in a civilian population it is most unusual to encounter military ammunition; and in military practice where people are killed by rifle bullets, autopsies, and follow-up correlations are not performed as in the civilian death situation. Very few people, if any, have had autopsy experience with the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 millimeter ammunition in a civilian population.
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The 2023 Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, proves the SBT is impossible.
Where can one read the Knott study? Not a synopsis of the study or a video synopsis of it, but the actual full study itself. What generation copy, or copies, of the Zapruder film did they use? Did they use the Betzner and Willis photos? If so, what generation copies were they? How far inboard of JFK did they determine Connally to be? Did they factor in the right rotation of Connally when concluding that the SBT could not work?
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Two entrance wounds and no exit wounds. Seems like quite a problem given the xray results produced not a single bullet was present. Those ice bullets are everywhere in your stories. Do you have a patent on them?
Knotts Lab of course. They would know.
Is Barry Ernest the latest dufus clown expert wannebe?
Except for all the deformities the bullet is pristine? What HSCA forensics expert stated that was like being a little pregnant. Right, it was Dr Baden
Dr. BADEN. Yes, sir. Absolutely, but with qualification . We on the medical panel have certain problems, as have other doctors in the past, in evaluating the injuries produced by the so-called "pristine 308 bullet", which is a media term that is inaccurate: it is like being a little bit pregnant-it is either pristine or it is not pristine. This is a damaged bullet and this is not a pristine bullet. This is a bullet that is deformed; it would be very difficult to take a hammer and flatten it to the degree that this is flattened. This is a partially deformed bullet with a heavy jacket. The problem is that although in New York City we see more than 1,000 gunshot wound deaths a year, in a civilian population it is most unusual to encounter military ammunition; and in military practice where people are killed by rifle bullets, autopsies, and follow-up correlations are not performed as in the civilian death situation. Very few people, if any, have had autopsy experience with the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 millimeter ammunition in a civilian population.
So we have a Carcano Bullet breaking bones and inflicting multiple wounds that emerges close to Pristine, vs another Carcano Bullet that explodes a head on contact and disintegrates? Not consistent by a long shot.
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So we have a Carcano Bullet breaking bones and inflicting multiple wounds that emerges close to Pristine, vs another Carcano Bullet that explodes a head on contact and disintegrates? Not consistent by a long shot.
You've been repeatedly schooled on this!
1) CE 399 was not pristine but was flattened on one side, totally consistent with being slowed by inches of only flesh and then tumbling and striking Connally's ribs side on.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/11/Photo_ce399_base.jpg)
and then further slowed to only fracture Connally's wrist bone instead of pulverizing it, and CE399 left lead fragments indicating that the bullet struck from an angle.
(https://i.ibb.co/hFsJ0JPR/Milesandthewrist1.jpg)
2) When a test Carcano bullet was fired into a skull, two fragments were produced and were similar to the two fragments recovered in the Limo, and both fragments were exclusively matched forensically to Oswald's rifle.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
(https://i.ibb.co/gbF1y2s0/CE-857-2-fragments-similar-to-CE-567-CE-569.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/cXV44Z2b/ce-399-567-569.jpg)
JohnM
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Two entrance wounds and no exit wounds. Seems like quite a problem given the xray results produced not a single bullet was present.
One, bullets frequently do not produce exit wounds but lodge somewhere in the body or break up in the body without exiting. Two, the Parkland doctors had valid medical reasons for believing that the throat missile ranged downward into the chest. Three, we have several credible reports that an intact or nearly intact bullet was discovered during the autopsy but was never entered into evidence. Four, the autopsy x-rays are not only incomplete but are clearly not pristine. The ARRB established that many autopsy photos and x-rays are missing.
Those ice bullets are everywhere in your stories. Do you have a patent on them?
Huh??? You must be thinking of someone else. I've never said a word about ice bullets.
Knotts Lab of course. They would know.
Right, and we both know that if the Knott Lab SBT analysis had confirmed the SBT, you guys would be hailing it as powerful evidence, that you would be pointing out that it is the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, and that you would be noting that Knott Lab has an excellent reputation and has worked on high-profile cases. But, uh-oh, as soon as you learned that the Knott Lab analysis refuted the SBT, you went into denial mode.
Is Barry Ernest the latest dufus clown expert wannebe?
Let me guess: You haven't read his book and are unaware of the new evidence he developed, right?
Except for all the deformities the bullet is pristine? What HSCA forensics expert stated that was like being a little pregnant. Right, it was Dr Baden
Dr. BADEN. Yes, sir. Absolutely, but with qualification . We on the medical panel have certain problems, as have other doctors in the past, in evaluating the injuries produced by the so-called "pristine 308 bullet", which is a media term that is inaccurate: it is like being a little bit pregnant-it is either pristine or it is not pristine. This is a damaged bullet and this is not a pristine bullet. This is a bullet that is deformed; it would be very difficult to take a hammer and flatten it to the degree that this is flattened. This is a partially deformed bullet with a heavy jacket. The problem is that although in New York City we see more than 1,000 gunshot wound deaths a year, in a civilian population it is most unusual to encounter military ammunition; and in military practice where people are killed by rifle bullets, autopsies, and follow-up correlations are not performed as in the civilian death situation. Very few people, if any, have had autopsy experience with the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 millimeter ammunition in a civilian population.
LOL! "Except for all the deformities"?! This is just surreal. Have you looked at photos of CE 399 lately? They're readily available. Let me repeat what anyone with two functioning eyes can see: CE 399 is only slightly deformed at his base. Its nose is undamaged (except for a tiny defect where the FBI removed a sample for testing). Its lands and grooves are intact. It is missing no more than 4 grains of its substance.
And allow me to repeat that in the WC's SBT test, FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same deformity or more deformity than CE 399. See CE 572. Also in the WC's SBT test, an FMJ bullet that was fired through a goat carcass and broke one rib emerged with more deformity than CE 399, even though the goat rib was smaller than Connally's fifth rib. That bullet is shown in CE 853.
Finally, I again note the cold hard fact that no SBT wound ballistics test has duplicated the SBT, either because the test failed to simulate key parts of CE 399's alleged journey or because the bullets emerged with more deformity than CE 399.
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One, bullets frequently do not produce exit wounds but lodge somewhere in the body or break up in the body without exiting. Two, the Parkland doctors had valid medical reasons for believing that the throat missile ranged downward into the chest. Three, we have several credible reports that an intact or nearly intact bullet was discovered during the autopsy but was never entered into evidence. Four, the autopsy x-rays are not only incomplete but are clearly not pristine. The ARRB established that many autopsy photos and x-rays are missing.
Huh??? You must be thinking of someone else. I've never said a word about ice bullets.
Right, and we both know that if the Knott Lab SBT analysis had confirmed the SBT, you guys would be hailing it as powerful evidence, that you would be pointing out that it is the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, and that you would be noting that Knott Lab has an excellent reputation and has worked on high-profile cases. But, uh-oh, as soon as you learned that the Knott Lab analysis refuted the SBT, you went into denial mode.
Let me guess: You haven't read his book and are unaware of the new evidence he developed, right?
LOL! "Except for all the deformities"?! This is just surreal. Have you looked at photos of CE 399 lately? They're readily available. Let me repeat what anyone with two functioning eyes can see: CE 399 is only slightly deformed at his base. Its nose is undamaged (except for a tiny defect where the FBI removed a sample for testing). Its lands and grooves are intact. It is missing no more than 4 grains of its substance.
And allow me to repeat that in the WC's SBT test, FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same deformity or more deformity than CE 399. See CE 572. Also in the WC's SBT test, an FMJ bullet that was fired through a goat carcass and broke one rib emerged with more deformity than CE 399, even though the goat rib was smaller than Connally's fifth rib. That bullet is shown in CE 853.
Finally, I again note the cold hard fact that no SBT wound ballistics test has duplicated the SBT, either because the test failed to simulate key parts of CE 399's alleged journey or because the bullets emerged with more deformity than CE 399.
One, bullets frequently do not produce exit wounds but lodge somewhere in the body or break up in the body without exiting. Two, the Parkland doctors had valid medical reasons for believing that the throat missile ranged downward into the chest. Three, we have several credible reports that an intact or nearly intact bullet was discovered during the autopsy but was never entered into evidence. Four, the autopsy x-rays are not only incomplete but are clearly not pristine. The ARRB established that many autopsy photos and x-rays are missing
Jacketed bullets do.
Well that was interesting. Slightly disturbing from an informational standpoint that someone actually thinks like that, but interesting how far someone will go to deny reality. Where you are at what is the color of the sky?
Huh??? You must be thinking of someone else. I've never said a word about ice bullets.
Are you sure? Then where did the bullets go on all of your various theories? Let us not forget the front and back headshot had equally bizarre scenarios to them.
Right, and we both know that if the Knott Lab SBT analysis had confirmed the SBT, you guys would be hailing it as powerful evidence, that you would be pointing out that it is the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, and that you would be noting that Knott Lab has an excellent reputation and has worked on high-profile cases. But, uh-oh, as soon as you learned that the Knott Lab analysis refuted the SBT, you went into denial mode.
Knotts Lab did prove it you watch the video. It lined up perfectly at one point, but Knotts Lab did not do anything positive because their goal was to deceive not inform.
Let me guess: You haven't read his book and are unaware of the new evidence he developed, right?
Wasn’t Ernest Barney Fife to Walt Cakebread’s Sheriff Taylor here for awhile? Right up until it got so stupid even he could not do it anymore.
LOL! "Except for all the deformities"?! This is just surreal. Have you looked at photos of CE 399 lately? They're readily available. Let me repeat what anyone with two functioning eyes can see: CE 399 is only slightly deformed at his base. Its nose is undamaged (except for a tiny defect where the FBI removed a sample for testing). Its lands and grooves are intact. It is missing no more than 4 grains of its substance.
And allow me to repeat that in the WC's SBT test, FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same deformity or more deformity than CE 399. See CE 572. Also in the WC's SBT test, an FMJ bullet that was fired through a goat carcass and broke one rib emerged with more deformity than CE 399, even though the goat rib was smaller than Connally's fifth rib. That bullet is shown in CE 853.
Yes deformities. Did the cotton wadding stop the bullet or slow and catch the bullet? That had to be interesting given the bullet went through 3 inches or more of pine.
Goats now. Did they figure out how to fire the bullet into the goat so the bullet flipped sideways? If not, you have nothing to talk about do you?
Everyone understands the concept of jacketed bullets. Insinuating they just disappear is ridiculous.
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Just to inject yet another reality check into this thread, CE 399's virtually pristine condition is one of the most powerful refutations of the SBT. CE 399 is barely deformed. It is slightly deformed at its base. Amazingly, its lands and grooves are intact. Its nose is intact, except for a tiny notch that was made when the FBI removed a tiny piece of the nose for testing purposes. In the WC's SBT wound ballistics test, bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or greater deformation as CE 399.
I have already covered the devastating results of other wound ballistics tests earlier in this thread. Suffice it to say that every single SBT test has either failed to simulate key parts of CE 399's alleged journey or has refuted the SBT.
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CE 399 is barely deformed.
You're full of beans.
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\Suffice it to say that every single SBT test has either failed to simulate key parts of CE 399's alleged journey or has refuted the SBT.
Would you have preferred the Warren Commission fire live ammunition into living human targets? Because that's the only possible way to "simulate key parts" of the bullet's path. I concur with other posters who keep asking you, apparently without a response, where all of your purported extra bullets went? Were they magically removed from Kennedy's body and/or Dealey Plaza and forever hidden away from any documentation? I find that to be absurd.
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Would you have preferred the Warren Commission fire live ammunition into living human targets? Because that's the only possible way to "simulate key parts" of the bullet's path.
That is erroneous. I take it you haven't read my previous replies in this thread.
I concur with other posters who keep asking you, apparently without a response, where all of your purported extra bullets went? Were they magically removed from Kennedy's body and/or Dealey Plaza and forever hidden away from any documentation? I find that to be absurd.
You find it to be absurd that criminals would remove evidence??? Do you have any idea how many cases police/federal officials have been caught discarding or destroying evidence, not to mention planting and altering evidence?
We know where some of the extra bullets went. One of them created the Aldredge curb scar, a long visible scar on the curb on the north side of Elm Street. Another one struck the pavement near the rear of the limo early in the shooting and kicked up debris and was seen by five witnesses. Another one struck the curb near James Tague and sent a fragment streaking toward him with enough velocity to cut his face. Another extra bullet was seen to dig a hole in the grass near a manhole cover about 350 feet down Elm Street, and local newspapers reported on that bullet strike.
For example, when the Fort Worth Star-Telegram published a photo of the hole in the grass, it included the following caption:
One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy
lies in the grass across Elm Street. . . .
The next day the Dallas Times Herald, in referring to the hole in the grass, reported:
Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from
the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered
at 100 yards.
Newsman Richard Dudman said the following about this miss and the recovered bullet in the 12/21/63 issue of the New Republic:
On the day the President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet].
A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the
President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another
bullet in the grass.
Another extra bullet was recovered from the limousine in DC on the night of the autopsy, as we now know from one of the doctors who attended the autopsy, Dr. James Young. For years, Dr. Young assumed the bullet was one of three shots allegedly fired by Oswald. When he later realized that the Warren Commission said nothing about it, he contacted Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford to inform them of the bullet's discovery and to find out why it was not discussed in the Warren Report.
Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRwhDQ9HMydf5pICsHwgtkoNKw0YSO8T/view
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Just to inject yet another reality check into this thread, CE 399's virtually pristine condition is one of the most powerful refutations of the SBT. CE 399 is barely deformed. It is slightly deformed at its base. Amazingly, its lands and grooves are intact. Its nose is intact, except for a tiny notch that was made when the FBI removed a tiny piece of the nose for testing purposes. In the WC's SBT wound ballistics test, bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or greater deformation as CE 399. I have already covered the devastating results of other wound ballistics tests earlier in this thread. Suffice it to say that every single SBT test has either failed to simulate key parts of CE 399's alleged journey or has refuted the SBT.
Griffith,
How can you call a full metal jacket bullet that's longitudinally twisted, compressed at the base, flattened on one side over its rear 1/3 to 1/2, has lost up to 4 grains of its core, and is extruding said core from its you-know-what, "nearly pristine"?
Did your beloved tests involve 1) determining the precise trajectory and velocity of a round-nosed 160-grain Carcano bullet (which kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft) fired at that distance and from that elevation, and 2) determining as well the precise angle-of-incidence of a bullet with that trajectory when it hit JFK on that downward-sloping street and at that precise distance, and 3) firing a bullet with that same trajectory and angle of incidence and point of incidence through a block of ballistics gel or a live male's neck, 4) with another (largish) male or mannikin sitting in precisely the same position distance-wise, height-wise, and side-to-side-wise as JBC was sitting in relation to JFK, and 5) in precisely the same "pose" arms-and-hands-wise, as JBC was in when he was struck by the bullet (e.g., turned 30 to 35 degrees to his right; with his arms and hands "just so," etc., etc.)?
Even if you were to answer "yes" to all of the above questions, your beloved tests would still be invalid for the simple reason that there are so many other complicated physics and physiological factors to take into consideration for modeling a scenario in which a round-nosed 160-grain Carcano bullet that's travelling at approximately 2000 feet-per-second when it hits someone in the upper-back / lower-neck, passes through his neck without hitting bone, penetrates another person's back near his right armpit (while he's sitting to the left of and lower than the first person and is turned 30-to-35 degrees to his right), smashes this second person's fifth rib, exits his chest, enters his wrist backwards, side-swipes his radial bone with its rear 1/2 or so while twirling, exits his wrist, and shallowly penetrates his left thigh.
In other words, given the plethora of above variables and the initial high velocities (and eventual low velocities) involved, your beloved tests' inability to produce a bullet even remotely like CE-399 should have been expected . . . and if it had occurred, would have been a doggone miracle.
D'oh!
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I find it revealing that lone-gunman theorists simply cannot face the fact that even in SBT tests where the FMJ bullets did most of the same damage attributed to CE 399, the bullets emerged more deformed than CE 399, in addition to the fact that no one has yet found a forensic case where a bullet performed the same feat alleged for CE 399 and emerged with minimal deformity.
The OP of this thread cited the ridiculous, bogus SBT simulation done by Failure Analysis, where FMJ bullets were merely fired into cadaver wrists at reduced velocities. The bullets did not have to pass through ballistics gelatin before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to smash at least a few inches of rib bone before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to penetrate at least 1 inch into a gelatin block after exiting the wrists.
At least in the 1967 CBS SBT test, the bullets passed through 12 inches of gelatin before hitting cadaver wrists, but none of the bullets managed to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. Based on these facts, one of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).
Lattimer's SBT test actually did a decent job of duplicating CE 399's alleged journey, but Lattimer threw away the three bullets that struck two bones, and one of the other bullets was markedly deformed.
In the WC's SBT test, an FMJ bullet that was fired through a goat carcass and broke one rib emerged with more deformity than CE 399, even though the goat rib was smaller than Connally's fifth rib and even though it did not smash a cadaver wrist after breaking the rib. That bullet is shown in CE 853.
Other bullets from the WC's SBT test were merely fired into cotton wadding, and every one of them emerged with the same or greater deformation as CE 399.
In the 1992 All-American Communications (AATV) SBT test, two gelatin blocks and two sets of bones were used. The bullet that hit two bones emerged far more deformed than CE 399, and it never penetrated the second gelatin block.
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I find it revealing that lone-gunman theorists simply cannot face the fact that even in SBT tests where the FMJ bullets did most of the same damage attributed to CE 399, the bullets emerged more deformed than CE 399, in addition to the fact that no one has yet found a forensic case where a bullet performed the same feat alleged for CE 399 and emerged with minimal deformity.
The OP of this thread cited the ridiculous, bogus SBT simulation done by Failure Analysis, where FMJ bullets were merely fired into cadaver wrists at reduced velocities. The bullets did not have to pass through ballistics gelatin before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to smash at least a few inches of rib bone before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to penetrate at least 1 inch into a gelatin block after exiting the wrists.
At least in the 1967 CBS SBT test, the bullets passed through 12 inches of gelatin before hitting cadaver wrists, but none of the bullets managed to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. Based on these facts, one of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).
Lattimer's SBT test actually did a decent job of duplicating CE 399's alleged journey, but Lattimer threw away the three bullets that struck two bones, and one of the other bullets was markedly deformed.
In the WC's SBT test, an FMJ bullet that was fired through a goat carcass and broke one rib emerged with more deformity than CE 399, even though the goat rib was smaller than Connally's fifth rib and even though it did not smash a cadaver wrist after breaking the rib. That bullet is shown in CE 853.
Other bullets from the WC's SBT test were merely fired into cotton wadding, and every one of them emerged with the same or greater deformation as CE 399.
In the 1992 All-American Communications (AATV) SBT test, two gelatin blocks and two sets of bones were used. The bullet that hit two bones emerged far more deformed than CE 399, and it never penetrated the second gelatin block.
Griffith,
What's the probability that your beloved testers were able to perfectly reenact CE-399's trajectory, angles of incidence, and velocity, etc., not to mention what it did after it exited JFK's throat and started tumbling (which we know from the Haags experiments viewable in "Cold Case JFK" and the oblong entry wound in JBC's back) so as to be able to recreate perfectly the way it was tumbling and twirling when it side-swiped JBC's radial bone?
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Griffith,
What's the probability that your beloved testers were able to perfectly reenact CE-399's trajectory, angles of incidence, and velocity, etc., not to mention what it did after it exited JFK's throat and started tumbling (which we know from the Haags experiments viewable in "Cold Case JFK" and the oblong entry wound in JBC's back) so as to be able to recreate perfectly the way it was tumbling and twirling when it side-swiped JBC's radial bone?
This is sheer comedy. Let me repeat the fact that in the WC's SBT test, bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged as deformed or more deformed than CE 399. Plus, are you aware that Connally's back wound showed no indication that it was made by a tumbling bullet, that the mortician said the back wound was about 6 inches below the throat wound, that the rear clothing holes put the back wound well below the throat wound, and that the most sophisticated SBT trajectory analysis ever done proves the SBT is impossible?
This is not to mention the fact that we know that no bullet exited the throat wound because there was no hole in the tie and because the front shirt slits had no fabric missing from them and had no metallic traces around, in addition to the fact that Dr. Carrico and one of the Parkland nurses confirmed that the nurses made the shirt slits.
Are you ever going to face the fact that there was no hole in the tie? Even if we assume a bullet exited the shirt slits, there is no way that bullet could have magically weaved around the body of the tie to nick the left side of the tie knot. Again, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick near the left edge of the tie knot. This fact alone destroys the SBT.
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This is sheer comedy. Let me repeat the fact that in the WC's SBT test, bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged as deformed or more deformed than CE 399. Plus, are you aware that Connally's back wound showed no indication that it was made by a tumbling bullet, that the mortician said the back wound was about 6 inches below the throat wound, that the rear clothing holes put the back wound well below the throat wound, and that the most sophisticated SBT trajectory analysis ever done proves the SBT is impossible?
This is not to mention the fact that we know that no bullet exited the throat wound because there was no hole in the tie and because the front shirt slits had no fabric missing from them and had no metallic traces around, in addition to the fact that Dr. Carrico and one of the Parkland nurses confirmed that the nurses made the shirt slits.
Are you ever going to face the fact that there was no hole in the tie? Even if we assume a bullet exited the shirt slits, there is no way that bullet could have magically weaved around the body of the tie to nick the left side of the tie knot. Again, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick near the left edge of the tie knot. This fact alone destroys the SBT.
The bullet was yawing not tumbling. Cotton wad used to stop the bullet vs running out of energy. No exit wound on JFK. If you don't know anything about the subject maybe don't post on the thread.
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Griffith,
What's the probability that your beloved testers were able to perfectly reenact CE-399's trajectory, angles of incidence, and velocity, etc., not to mention what it did after it exited JFK's throat and started tumbling (which we know from the Haags experiments viewable in "Cold Case JFK" and the oblong entry wound in JBC's back) so as to be able to recreate perfectly the way it was tumbling and twirling when it side-swiped JBC's radial bone?
The above visual aid actually discredits the SBT. As pictured, that bullet's decline would Not permit it to clear the backrest of Gov Connally's jump seat. Also, we see here another adjustment to history. This visual aid NOW has Connally leaning forward. Much like Max Holland NOW claiming that the elapsed time for the 3 shots was roughly 11 seconds, this adjustment to the SBT is another attempt to make a flawed "theory" work. And as usual, this cartoon has the bullet entering JFK's neck. That bullet entered JFK's BACK.
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The above visual aid actually discredits the SBT. As pictured, that bullet's decline would Not permit it to clear the backrest of Gov Connally's jump seat. Also, we see here another adjustment to history. This visual aid NOW has Connally leaning forward. Much like Max Holland NOW claiming that the elapsed time for the 3 shots was roughly 11 seconds, this adjustment to the SBT is another attempt to make a flawed "theory" work. And as usual, this cartoon has the bullet entering JFK's neck. That bullet entered JFK's BACK.
The bullet's decline in that visual aid is 17.5 degrees. It would, and did, permit the bullet to clear the backrest of Gov Connally's jump seat. The bullet dropped about 8 inches between the entry point on JFK and the back of the backrest of Connally's jumpseat.
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Please watch the entire video. (1) The Bullet Enters the NECK (not the BACK), (2) The Bullet LEVELS off after exiting the throat, and (3) Gov Connally is leaning forward. Connally's back is not even close to the backrest. And people want to argue with Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE finding the SBT "Is Impossible"? This is what is required to do that. A Total Sham Presentation.
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The above visual aid actually discredits the SBT. As pictured, that bullet's decline would Not permit it to clear the backrest of Gov Connally's jump seat. Also, we see here another adjustment to history. This visual aid NOW has Connally leaning forward. Much like Max Holland NOW claiming that the elapsed time for the 3 shots was roughly 11 seconds, this adjustment to the SBT is another attempt to make a flawed "theory" work. And as usual, this cartoon has the bullet entering JFK's neck. That bullet entered JFK's BACK.
The "visual aid" clearly shows the bullet clearing the seat, if you actually bother to watch it.
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Yeah, of course it clears the seat. They LEVEL Off the flight path of the bullet after it exits the throat. This cartoon from the very start is a joke as it impacts the NECK instead of the BACK. Plus, they have re-positioned Gov Connally in the Jump Seat. The revisionist history never rests.
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Yeah, of course it clears the seat. They LEVEL Off the flight path of the bullet after it exits the throat. This cartoon from the very start is a joke as it impacts the NECK instead of the BACK. Plus, they have re-positioned Gov Connally in the Jump Seat. The revisionist history never rests.
Nope. You can see that the line is straight coming in and going out. All you have to do is look. A wise man once said, you can observe a lot by just watching
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Exactly. "Straight" = levels off
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Exactly. "Straight" = levels off
Storing,
Is English your second language?
Something that levels off cannot be said to have flown straight over its entire course.
Regardless, one thing the video probably did get wrong is its not showing the bullet penetrating JBC's wrist rear-end-first, as is indicated by the fact that clothing fibers were found inside the wound.
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Watch the entire video. The bullet does Not continue the same downward angle after exiting the throat. This is the only way this cartoon could get the bullet to clear the backrest of Connally's jump seat. This shot has been attempted in real life. The bullet slams into the dash board of the auto and caroms out onto the road. Yes, a carcano bullet that somehow Exploded JFK's head only caroms off of a dash board. Embarrassingly this was recorded on film.
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The bullet was yawing not tumbling.
You don't know that. That's sheer speculation. You don't have a shred of evidence that the Connally back-wound bullet was yawing or tumbling. Connally's back wound was only 1.5 cm wide, the same width as JFK's rear head wound, yet no one has ever claimed that the JFK rear-head-shot bullet was yawing or tumbling. JFK's head wound was 1.5 x 0.6 cm, while Connally's back wound was 1.5 x 0.8 cm. Yet, again, not a soul has ever suggested that the JFK rear-head-shot bullet was yawing or tumbling.
And, just FYI, quite a few of your fellow WC apologists have long claimed that the bullet that hit Connally's back was tumbling--in fact, a number of them have claimed that the bullet hit him sideways. They've made this claim in relation to the bogus assertion that Connally's back wound was 3 cm wide (that was the size of the wound after Dr. Shaw enlarged it in order to clean and debride it--see 6 H 88; before he did that it, it was 1.5 cm wide). As a matter of fact, Tom Graves said the bullet was tumbling in a recent reply to me:
What's the probability that your beloved testers were able to perfectly reenact CE-399's trajectory, angles of incidence, and velocity, etc., not to mention what it did after it exited JFK's throat and started tumbling (which we know from the Haags experiments viewable in "Cold Case JFK" and the oblong entry wound in JBC's back) so as to be able to recreate perfectly the way it was tumbling and twirling when it side-swiped JBC's radial bone?
Anyway, the damage inside Connally’s chest also disproves a sideways hit. According to Dr. Shaw, who operated on Connally's chest wound, the bullet created a "small tunneling wound" (7 HSCA 149) and he noted "the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it" (4 H 116). The wound's dimensions and the damage inside Connally's chest indicate the bullet hit Connally at a slight angle and was not tumbling or markedly yawing.
https://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/BigLieSmallWound.htm
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Cotton wad used to stop the bullet vs running out of energy.
Uh, no, wrong. The WC SBT test included firing bullets into a tube of cotton wadding. You don't know what you're talking about, as usual.
No exit wound on JFK.
I've already answered this argument, but you just keep repeating it. Again, bullets often do not leave the body. This happens rather frequently. The Parkland doctors saw clear indications that the throat bullet ranged downward into JFK's chest.
If you don't know anything about the subject maybe don't post on the thread.
LOL! You're the one who has repeatedly proved you don't even have a handle on the basics of the case.
But, now that Tom Graves knows that no SBT test has validated the SBT, he dismisses all the tests because he doesn't think they included the speculation that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back!
Are you guys ever going to bring yourselves to face the fact that we know that no bullet could have exited the shirt slits because there was no hole in the tie? The FBI knew that releasing all the tie photos would destroy the SBT, which is why they so doggedly resisted releasing them for years.
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Tom Graves started this thread by citing the bogus Failure Analysis SBT test because he thought it somehow validated the SBT. But, now that he knows that no SBT test has validated the SBT, he dismisses all the tests because he doesn't think they included the speculation that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back!
The Failure Analysis SBT Test was a fool's errand because it's impossible to recreate the damage that CE-399 sustained when it wounded both JFK and JBC the way that it did -- unless, of course, one were to fire a trillion or so Carcano bullets exactly the same weight as Oswald's at a trillion or so males the size of JFK and JBC while they are sitting exactly as they were in the limousine at exactly the same distance from the Snipers Nest, on exactly the same downward slope, and with the trillion or so males sitting in for JFK being hit in exactly the same place in their upper back / lower neck as JFK was and by a bullet that started tumbling / yawing exactly the same way CE-399 did when it exited JFK's throat.
D'oh!
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The Failure Analysis SBT Test was a fool's errand because it's impossible to recreate the damage that CE-399 sustained when it wounded both JFK and JBC the way that it did -- unless, of course, one were to fire a trillion or so shots at a trillion or so males the size of JFK and JBC while they are sitting exactly as they were in the limousine at exactly the same distance from the Snipers Nest, on exactly the same downward slope, with the male standing in for JFK being hit in exactly the same place in his upper back lower neck by a bullet traveling at exactly the same velocity, etc., etc., etc., and that started tumbling / yawing exactly the same way as he 399 did when it exited JFK's throat. D'oh!
This is beyond silly and desperate. FYI, a test bullet does not have to duplicate the exact position and angle of a bullet in a forensic case to incur approximately the same amount of damage and loss of substance as the damage and loss alleged for the real-case bullet. Otherwise, experts would never bother conducting wound ballistics tests, not to mention the fact that you don't have most of the information about CE 399's alleged journey in the first place.
If the real-case bullet struck at 10-degree downward angle and sideways, and if the test bullet struck at 20-degree downward angle and nearly perpendicularly, as long as the test target object had close to the same density as the real-case target object, the test bullet would incur close to the same degree of damage and loss of substance as the real-case bullet, and the only difference would be where the damage occurred. The test bullet might have its nose flattened while the real-case bullet would have its nose somewhat deformed and an area beneath the nose also deformed, and the loss of substance would be similar.
I notice you once again avoided the fact that no bullet could have exited the shirt slits because no hole was made in the tie. This explains why the bullet that hit Connally's back created a wound that was the same width as JFK's rear head entry wound.
You also keep avoiding the fact that even bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with as deformed or more deformed than CE 399, proving that CE 399 could not possibly have torn through seven layers of skin, several inches of tissue, smashed 5 inches of rib bone, shattered the radius bone, and then penetrated the thigh.
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Please watch the entire video. (1) The Bullet Enters the NECK (not the BACK), (2) The Bullet LEVELS off after exiting the throat, and (3) Gov Connally is leaning forward. Connally's back is not even close to the backrest. And people want to argue with Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE finding the SBT "Is Impossible"? This is what is required to do that. A Total Sham Presentation.
The video does have its flaws. The bullet entering the neck is not one of them. It did enter the neck. The video has Kennedy positioned rigidly and fully upright. It does not account for his hunchback physique, which gave him the appearance of being hunched forward. The video also has Connally leaning forward, which you have pointed out. It's not a total sham presentation though. If you want to see a total sham presentation, just watch the one created by Knott Lab.
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The "Best Evidence" is the JFK Autopsy BACK Photo. That photo clearly shows a bullet hole in JFK's BACK. This is why Rep Ford had to alter the written description of the wound. They thought the JFK Autopsy Photos would Not be publicly available for decades vs Gerry Ford's anatomically inaccurate written description being inserted into the soon to be released Warren Report at the last minute.
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A test bullet does not have to duplicate the exact position and angle of a bullet in a forensic case to incur approximately the same amount of damage and loss of substance as the damage and loss alleged for the real-case bullet. Otherwise, experts would never bother conducting wound ballistics tests, not to mention the fact that you don't have most of the information about CE 399's alleged journey in the first place.
Dear Michael "Useful Idiot or Worse" Griffith,
It's not the "amount of damage and loss of substance" that's the critical issue, here, but the unusual location of said damage (or lack of same) that's exhibited by CE-399. In other words, the flattening of the rear 1/3 to 1/2 on one side, the longitudinal twist, the compression at its base, the loss of 3 to 4 grains of lead core, and the absence of damage to its nose.
If the boys at Edgewood Arsenal (or wherever) were to fire a trillion or so Carcano bullets through a trillion or so blocks of ballistics gel, they might get lucky and have one of them not only smash the rib of a pig or some such thing about three feet away, but then smash the radial bone of a corpse another couple of feet away and end up with a bullet damaged approximately the way I mentioned above (and, of course, with no damage to its nose).
It appears that the boys at Edgewood Arsenal (or wherever) were unable or unwilling to do that, though, and settled for the genius idea of firing bullets directly at cadavers' wrists, instead. Or did they fire them through an intervening bale of cotton first?
Bottom line: The fact that they were unable to even approximate the damage to CE-399 is circumstantial evidence that CE-399 wasn't fired directly into JBC's wrist.
-- Tom
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The "Best Evidence" is the JFK Autopsy BACK Photo. That photo clearly shows a bullet hole in JFK's BACK. This is why Rep Ford had to alter the written description of the wound. They thought the JFK Autopsy Photos would Not be publicly available for decades vs Gerry Ford's anatomically inaccurate written description being inserted into the soon to be released Warren Report at the last minute.
It is nice to see that you have conceded that there was no large gaping wound on the back of Kennedy's head. Good on you.
Using the posterior autopsy view as a reference, place a mark on the lateral view at the level that you believe the non-fatal entry wound on Kennedy was.
(https://i.imgur.com/EkFvpdf.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bsOJdXy.jpeg)
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Stop playing games with the knee bone connected to the ankle bone stuff. The Autopsy Photo clearly shows a bullet hole in JFK's BACK.
We know they pulled JFK's hair up over the Back of the Head wound. That's old hat.
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The Autopsy Photo clearly shows a bullet hole in JFK's BACK.
Dear Comrade Storing,
You're confused by that photo because JFK was somewhat hunchbacked and rigor mortis had already set in.
-- Tom
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The Autopsy Photo of the Bullet Hole in JFK's BACK, matches the hole in his shirt and the hole in his coat. Case Closed!
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The autopsy photo of the bullet hole in JFK's back matches the hole in his shirt and the hole in his coat.
Dear Comrade Storing,
How many inches below JFK's shirt collar line and/or the tip of his mastoid process do you think the bullet wound in the autopsy photo is?
The FBI said about 5.75 inches for the former, and the autopsy report said about 5.5 inches for the latter. Are either of these measurements accurate in your humble opinion?
Grok says the above measurements indicate that the bullet wound was in the upper back, near the back-neck juncture.
Do you agree that the autopsy photo shows that the wound is near the back-neck juncture, or do you think it's farther down the back than that?
Do you agree that the bullet caused a fracture of the right transverse process of the T1 vertebra?
-- Tom
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You don't know that. That's sheer speculation. You don't have a shred of evidence that the Connally back-wound bullet was yawing or tumbling. Connally's back wound was only 1.5 cm wide, the same width as JFK's rear head wound, yet no one has ever claimed that the JFK rear-head-shot bullet was yawing or tumbling. JFK's head wound was 1.5 x 0.6 cm, while Connally's back wound was 1.5 x 0.8 cm. Yet, again, not a soul has ever suggested that the JFK rear-head-shot bullet was yawing or tumbling.
And, just FYI, quite a few of your fellow WC apologists have long claimed that the bullet that hit Connally's back was tumbling--in fact, a number of them have claimed that the bullet hit him sideways. They've made this claim in relation to the bogus assertion that Connally's back wound was 3 cm wide (that was the size of the wound after Dr. Shaw enlarged it in order to clean and debride it--see 6 H 88; before he did that it, it was 1.5 cm wide). As a matter of fact, Tom Graves said the bullet was tumbling in a recent reply to me:
Anyway, the damage inside Connally’s chest also disproves a sideways hit. According to Dr. Shaw, who operated on Connally's chest wound, the bullet created a "small tunneling wound" (7 HSCA 149) and he noted "the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it" (4 H 116). The wound's dimensions and the damage inside Connally's chest indicate the bullet hit Connally at a slight angle and was not tumbling or markedly yawing.
https://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/BigLieSmallWound.htm
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Uh, no, wrong. The WC SBT test included firing bullets into a tube of cotton wadding. You don't know what you're talking about, as usual.
I've already answered this argument, but you just keep repeating it. Again, bullets often do not leave the body. This happens rather frequently. The Parkland doctors saw clear indications that the throat bullet ranged downward into JFK's chest.
LOL! You're the one who has repeatedly proved you don't even have a handle on the basics of the case.
But, now that Tom Graves knows that no SBT test has validated the SBT, he dismisses all the tests because he doesn't think they included the speculation that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back!
Are you guys ever going to bring yourselves to face the fact that we know that no bullet could have exited the shirt slits because there was no hole in the tie? The FBI knew that releasing all the tie photos would destroy the SBT, which is why they so doggedly resisted releasing them for years.
The shape of the bullet hole in JBC’s back proves it was yawing. It then slid lengthwise along the rib before ending up backwards after striking the wrist and then entering JBC’s thigh where it ran out of energy.
MG---“Again, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick near the left edge of the tie knot.”
Any clue as to what caused the nick in the tie? Maybe the exiting bullet?
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It is hard to not laugh to think this is what you believe. The bullet was not spinning end for end like a pin wheel. The barrels are designed to spin the bullet on its longitudal axis to keep it stable in flight. You know “rifling.” Given all the nonsense you have posted on the headshot it makes sense that you would think that.
Yawing is the nose of the bullet is slightly tilted up or down.
Since when do bullets traversing different mediums continue on in exactly perfectly straight lines?
Mr. MATHEWS. So we say F-310 and F-114 are consistent with the theory that a bullet could enter one man straight, in a straight trajectory, and on exiting that man be curved slightly?
Mr. STURDIVAN. Well, let's put it this way. With most military bullets, like the M-193, the bullet would curve almost immediately because the yaw begins to grow almost immediately . With the Mannlicher-Carcano bullet, it is much more stable, the yaw begins to grow much more slowly, and it curves much more slowly. So that at a target of 4 or 5 inches of soft tissue, that bullet would not deviate appreciably from its path. In a much longer track, particularly if the bullet were unstable when it struck, it would in fact deviate from its path. It would not go in a straight line.
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Mr. MATHEWS. On your left, sir . Let me ask you a question in F-114, why did that bullet enter straight and then yaw upwardright behind you?
Mr. STURDIVAN. The bullet entered straight because it was unyawed in normal flight, and bullets are engineered to be stable and, therefore, it strikes at low yaw. When it is unstable inside the block, naturally unstable inside the block, it yaws dramatically, in every case. All bullets are unstable in tissue, which is 800 times as dense as air .
====================
How long was the tube of cotton wadding- 300 feet maybe 3000 feet?
What source or trajectory puts the bullet hole in JBC’s back if the bullet does not first traverse JFK? Oh that is right, your Knotts Lab fiasco has it originating in outer space.
In the words of Thomas Canning:
Mr. CANNING. The bullet would have had to have been substantially deflected by passing through the President in order to miss the Governor. It seems almost inevitable that the Governor would be hit with the alinements that we have found.
Mr. SAWYER. So that if we assume, as apparently is the fact, that this jacketed bullet did not hit anything solid in the way of bone in the President but only traversed the soft tissue of the neck, and presuming the approximate location of the limousine at the time and the posture as nearly as can be determined of the President at that time, that in your view then, absent a deflection of that bullet, it could not have missed Governor Connally.
Mr. CANNING. That is my view, yes.
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Mr. DEVINE. Based on-you are classified of course as an expert in your field as an engineer. And on the trajectory studies, would you say that your studies would reveal that it is consistent that there may have been a single shot that went through the Presi4ent's neck and through the body of Governor Connally?
Mr. CANNING. I am confident that that is in fact the case.
Mr. DEVINE. You are positive?
Mr. CANNING. Well, positive is a very strong word.
Mr. DEVINE. I understand. But it is totally consistent with your studies ; is that correct?
Mr. CANNING. Yes, it is
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Dear Comrade Storing,
How many inches below JFK's shirt collar line and/or the tip of his mastoid process do you think the bullet wound in the autopsy photo is?
The FBI said about 5.75 inches for the former, and the autopsy report said about 5.5 inches for the latter. Are either of these measurements accurate in your humble opinion?
Grok says the above measurements indicate that the bullet wound was in the upper back, near the back-neck juncture.
Do you agree that the autopsy photo shows that the wound is near the back-neck juncture, or do you think it's farther down the back than that?
Do you agree that the bullet caused a fracture of the right transverse process of the T1 vertebra?
-- Tom
Lotta verbiage and numbers/measurements being tossed around. STOP confusing yourself and others. Simply examine the JFK Autopsy Photo showing the BACK Wound.
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Lotta verbiage and numbers/measurements being tossed around. STOP confusing yourself and others. Simply examine the JFK Autopsy Photo showing the BACK Wound.
So, you don't KNOW?
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So, you're in the jury box and 1 attorney talks about "measurements", and then Vinny LaGuardia Gambini gets up and saying nothing, walks in front of the jury displaying the JFK Autopsy BACK Photo. Case Closed!
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So, you're in the jury box and 1 attorney talks about "measurements", and then Vinny LaGuardia Gambini gets up and saying nothing, walks in front of the jury displaying the JFK Autopsy BACK Photo. Case Closed!
Storing,
DO you AGREE that THE bullet caused a FRACTURE of the right transverse PROCESS of JFK's T-1 VERTEBRA?
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To get a better idea of just how minimally CE 399 was damaged during its alleged journey, consider the fact that the bullet originally weighed 161 grains and that it weighed 158.6 grains when it was entered into evidence, a loss of only 2.4 grains of its substance. To put it another way, after supposedly tearing through seven layers of human skin, tearing through a human neck, tearing through a human chest, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering the very hard right distal radius bone, this magic bullet lost only 1.5% of its substance.
In addition, CE 399's lands and grooves are intact and its only deformation is a modest deformation at its base, which isn't even apparent unless you view the bullet from its bottom.
Not a single bullet in any of the SBT wound ballistics tests that hit two bones or that traveled through 12 inches of gelatin and hit one bone or that traveled through a goat carcass and broke a rib bone--not one of those bullets emerged with 98.5% of its substance, with its lands and grooves intact, and with only minimal deformation at its base.
Indeed, as mentioned in previous replies, in the WC's SBT test, even FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation than CE 399.
And, needless to say, no one has yet found a single case in forensic records of a bullet emerging in such nearly pristine condition after doing damage comparable to that of CE 399. When Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the eight other members of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel to produce one such case, they could not do so.
This is not surprising, since we know for an absolute fact that no bullet exited the front shirt slits because there was no hole in the tie, which proves that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets.
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Comrade Griffith posted:
To get a better idea of just how minimally CE 399 was damaged during its alleged journey, consider the fact that the bullet originally weighed 161 grains and that it weighed 158.6 grains when it was entered into evidence, a loss of only 2.4 grains of its substance. To put it another way, after supposedly tearing through seven layers of human skin, tearing through a human neck, tearing through a human chest, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering the very hard right distal radius bone, this magic bullet lost only 1.5% of its substance.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
I asked Grok:
"Is it fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company military surplus 6.5 x 52 mm Carcano rounds could have varied by a grain or two? In which year were Oswald's rounds manufactured, anyway?"
Grok: Weight Variation: Yes, it is fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano military surplus rounds could have varied by a grain or two due to manufacturing tolerances typical of ammunition from that era. While no specific documentation confirms weight variation for the exact lot used by Lee Harvey Oswald, minor variances (e.g., 1-2 grains) are common in mass-produced military ammunition due to factors like powder consistency, bullet molding, or quality control standards of the time. The standard bullet weight for these full metal jacket rounds is consistently cited as 160 grains in historical and ballistic records.Year of Manufacture: The exact year of manufacture for the specific WCC 6.5×52mm Carcano rounds used by Oswald is not definitively stated in primary sources like the Warren Commission or FBI reports. However, these rounds were part of a surplus batch produced by WCC in the 1950s, likely between 1954 and 1955, for use in U.S.-supplied Carcano rifles. This is based on information from firearms historians and surplus ammunition analyses, which note that WCC manufactured these rounds under contract for the U.S. government, primarily for export or military aid. The rounds were later sold as surplus through mail-order companies like Klein’s Sporting Goods, from which Oswald purchased his rifle and ammunition in 1963. No precise lot number or manufacturing date beyond this range is provided in available records.
In addition, CE 399's lands and grooves are intact and its only deformation is a modest deformation at its base, which isn't even apparent unless you view the bullet from its bottom. Not a single bullet in any of the SBT wound ballistics tests that hit two bones or that traveled through 12 inches of gelatin and hit one bone or that traveled through a goat carcass and broke a rib bone--not one of those bullets emerged with 98.5% of its substance, with its lands and grooves intact, and with only minimal deformation at its base. Indeed, as mentioned in previous replies, in the WC's SBT test, even FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation than CE 399. And, needless to say, no one has yet found a single case in forensic records of a bullet emerging in such nearly pristine condition after doing damage comparable to that of CE 399. When Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the eight other members of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel to produce one such case, they could not do so.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Did they try firing them through a living man's lower neck/upper back (or through a corpse or a block of ballistics gel in case there were no volunteers) in such a way that the bullet would then travel about three feet and penetrate another living man's (or corpse's) chest from back-to-front, ride along (and smash) his fifth rib in the process, exit below his nipple, and then penetrate his wrist butt-end-first and strike in the living man (or corpse) the only hard bone that CE-399 is known to have hit in either JFK or JBC, the volunteer's (or corpse's) radial bone, while tumbling and/or twirling?
Tangentially (pardon the pun), are you aware of the fact that CE-399 ended up with a longitudinal twist?
How do you suppose that happened?
Do you postulate that it was manufactured by Chubby Checker?
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Comrade Griffith posted:
Dear Comrade Griffith,
I asked Grok:
"Is it fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company military surplus 6.5 x 52 mm Carcano rounds could have varied by a grain or two? In which year were Oswald's rounds manufactured, anyway?"
Grok: Weight Variation: Yes, it is fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano military surplus rounds could have varied by a grain or two due to manufacturing tolerances typical of ammunition from that era. While no specific documentation confirms weight variation for the exact lot used by Lee Harvey Oswald, minor variances (e.g., 1-2 grains) are common in mass-produced military ammunition due to factors like powder consistency, bullet molding, or quality control standards of the time. The standard bullet weight for these full metal jacket rounds is consistently cited as 160 grains in historical and ballistic records.Year of Manufacture: The exact year of manufacture for the specific WCC 6.5×52mm Carcano rounds used by Oswald is not definitively stated in primary sources like the Warren Commission or FBI reports. However, these rounds were part of a surplus batch produced by WCC in the 1950s, likely between 1954 and 1955, for use in U.S.-supplied Carcano rifles. This is based on information from firearms historians and surplus ammunition analyses, which note that WCC manufactured these rounds under contract for the U.S. government, primarily for export or military aid. The rounds were later sold as surplus through mail-order companies like Klein’s Sporting Goods, from which Oswald purchased his rifle and ammunition in 1963. No precise lot number or manufacturing date beyond this range is provided in available records.
Umm, okay. So the bullet either lost no substance or lost a mere 4-5 grains instead of 2.4 grains. No SBT test bullet or any bullet from a verified forensic case lost so little substance after doing so much damage.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Did they try firing them through a living man's lower neck/upper back (or through a corpse or a block of ballistics gel in case there were no volunteers) in such a way that the bullet would then travel about three feet and penetrate another living man's (or corpse's) chest from back-to-front, ride along (and smash) his fifth rib in the process, exit below his nipple, and then penetrate his wrist butt-end-first and strike in the living man (or corpse) the only hard bone that CE-399 is known to have hit in either JFK or JBC, the volunteer's (or corpse's) radial bone, while tumbling and/or twirling?
Tangentially (pardon the pun), are you aware of the fact that CE-399 ended up with a longitudinal twist? How do you suppose that happened?
No! I had no idea! The longitudinal twist is very slight and is at the base, as is the slight deformation. I know your mind seems unwilling to process this fact, but I'll repeat it anyway: bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation as CE 399.
I see you're again arguing that wound ballistics tests are worthless unless the test bullets exactly duplicate the angle and speed of the original missile and exactly duplicate the original target, which is just ridiculous and amateurish.
I see you're still refusing to face the fact that there was no hole in the tie but only a nick on the top of the tie know, which proves that no bullet exited the shirt slits, which in turn destroys the SBT.
I'm guessing you won't read this, but here's an article by John Hunt, one of the most careful and respected researchers in the community, on CE 399 and the SBT:
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
-
Bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation as CE-399.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Round-nosed fmj 6.5mm Carcano bullets that are fired at a velocity of more than 1,300 mph into cotton wadding evidently experience much more intense resistance while trying to pass through a few inches of wad than they do when passing through 36 inches of pine wood completely undamaged, as can be seen by watching the PBS NOVA program, "Cold Case JFK."
Evidently, when CE-399 passed through JFK's neck and JBC's upper torso and struck the radial bone in his wrist, it experienced less resistance overall than did CE-399, until, that is, CE-399 "kissed" said radial bone butt-end-first while yawing and/or tumbling.
I see you're again arguing that wound ballistics tests are worthless unless the test bullets exactly duplicate the angle and speed of the original missile and exactly duplicate the original target, which is just ridiculous and amateurish.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
According to Grok, ballistics tests are useful for the following purposes:
Ballistics tests are conducted for several key reasons:
1. Crime Scene Investigation: To match bullets or cartridge cases found at a crime scene to a specific firearm, aiding in forensic analysis and suspect identification.
2. Firearm Identification: To determine if a specific gun was used in a crime by analyzing ballistic evidence like bullet markings or casings.
3. Weapon Performance Evaluation: To assess the accuracy, reliability, and effectiveness of firearms and ammunition under various conditions.
4. Research and Development: To improve the design of firearms, ammunition, or protective gear like body armor by studying ballistic behavior.
5. Safety Testing: To evaluate potential risks, such as misfires, malfunctions, or excessive penetration, ensuring user safety.
6. Legal and Regulatory Compliance: To verify that firearms and ammunition meet legal standards and regulations for manufacturing or use.
7. Quality Control: For manufacturers to ensure firearms and ammunition meet consistent performance and safety standards before distribution.
My comment:
Note that "trying to determine if a high-velocity yawing/tumbling bullet can cause a certain kind of wound, and, if so, exactly what kind of deformation it would sustain" isn't mentioned.
Maybe because it would be a fool's errand to attempt to determine with exactitude any (much less all) of the multitudinous variables involved?
D'oh!
-
It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did. See Figure 4 in John Hunt's superb article "Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory":
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Hunt points out that the Discovery Channel SBT test proves that even if the bullet that hit Connally's rib hit it traveling sideways, this would still have caused much more deformation than we see in CE 399:
S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n attached a lot of weight to the conclusion that a yawing bullet would
shed enough kinetic energy such that it struck Connally’s rib only slightly above its own
sideways impact deformation velocity. Unfortunately for S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n, even
injecting the Magic Bullet with theoretical steroids can not rehabilitate the SBT, for the
Discovery Channel “Single Bullet” did impact the “Connally” trunk while severely yawed
and was still grossly deformed upon impact with the rib.
Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:
The fact is that the bullet that most closely duplicated the Connally wounding in the
Biophysics goat tests look just like the Discovery Channel–smashed. And that bullet
struck the goat rib a glancing blow.
Figure 7 in Hunt's article shows CE 399 with two views of the goat-test bullet.
Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.
I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."
Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:
https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c
Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:
With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)
-
Just bumping the information below because it is further proof that the SBT is fiction, and because it provides another example of a pro-WC thread that has ended up presenting facts that WC apologists cannot explain.
It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did. See Figure 4 in John Hunt's superb article "Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory":
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Hunt points out that the Discovery Channel SBT test proves that even if the bullet that hit Connally's rib hit it traveling sideways, this would still have caused much more deformation than we see in CE 399:
S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n attached a lot of weight to the conclusion that a yawing bullet would
shed enough kinetic energy such that it struck Connally’s rib only slightly above its own
sideways impact deformation velocity. Unfortunately for S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n, even
injecting the Magic Bullet with theoretical steroids can not rehabilitate the SBT, for the
Discovery Channel “Single Bullet” did impact the “Connally” trunk while severely yawed
and was still grossly deformed upon impact with the rib.
Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:
The fact is that the bullet that most closely duplicated the Connally wounding in the
Biophysics goat tests look just like the Discovery Channel–smashed. And that bullet
struck the goat rib a glancing blow.
Figure 7 in Hunt's article shows CE 399 with two views of the goat-test bullet.
Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.
I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."
Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:
https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c
Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:
With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)
-
It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did.
The bullet in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test struck two ribs, not just one.
Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:
The bullet struck the goat rib at a higher velocity than the bullet strike on Connally's rib.
Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.
I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."
Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:
https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c
Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:
With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)
"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472
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The bullet in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test struck two ribs, not just one.
One, yes, but the Discovery Channel bullet did not smash 5 inches of rib bone, even though it hit two rib bones. You didn't bother to read Hunt's article, did you?
Two, CE 399 supposedly smashed 5 inches of rib bone and supposedly then smashed the radius bone, one of the densest bones in the body. Yet, it emerged visibly less damaged than the Discovery Channel bullet.
The bullet struck the goat rib at a higher velocity than the bullet strike on Connally's rib.
The velocity was not higher enough to make any substantive difference. Did you miss Dr. Wecht's point that CE 399's velocity would have only been reduced by about 10% after it allegedly exited JFK's throat? Plus, in the 1967 CBS SBT test, the FMJ bullets passed through 12 inches of ballistics gelatin before hitting cadaver wrist bones, and not one of them had enough energy to penetrate the simulated thigh--and in fact several of them failed to leave the cadaver wrist.
Why do you keep ignoring these facts? Do you get some sort of emotional comfort from believing in the SBT? Sorry, but sooner or later you're going to have to face that fact that every SBT wound ballistics test ever done has invalidated the SBT. You're also going to have to face that fact that JFK's tie alone--i.e., the fact that there was no hole through it--self-evidently destroys the SBT.
"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472
I can't believe you didn't recognize the specious nature of S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's argument here. Do you really believe that cotton wadding compressed by a bullet is denser than (1) three layers of human skin (the back and front of JFK's neck and Connally's back) and (2) at least 6 inches of muscle tissue (4 inches in JFK's neck and at least 2 inches between Connally's back wound and his fifth rib)? Do you really? Surely deep down you know this is utter nonsense. But S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n has to make this erroneous assumption because he admits that the two bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged more deformed than CE 399.
None other than Dr. Martin Fackler has observed that one layer of human skin has the approximate resistance strength of 4 inches of muscle tissue (https://www.patspeer.com/jahs-chapter-19). This means that three layers of human skin have the resistance strength of 12 inches of muscle tissue, which means that CE 399 would have had to pass through the equivalent of 18 inches of muscle tissue before it even hit the wrist (three layers of skin = 12 inches of muscle tissue, plus at least 6 inches of muscle tissue in JFK's neck and Connally's back). Do you really, deep down, believe that bullet-compressed cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test was denser than 18 inches of muscle tissue? Do you really?
And notice that S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n says nothing about Dr. Wecht's point regarding the goat-carcass bullet in the WC's SBT test. The bullet's velocity was virtually the same as CE 399's velocity would have been after allegedly exiting JFK's neck, because CE 399's velocity would have only been reduced by about 10% after supposedly exiting the neck. Furthermore, the goat-carcass bullet did less damage than CE 399 supposedly did in Connally's chest, yet it still emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.
Clearly, you did not bother to read Hunt's article. He addresses S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's many flawed arguments and shifting assumptions. Here's the link to Hunt's article again:
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the greatest forensic pathologists of the 20th century, who supervised over 10,000 gunshot-wound autopsies, noted that human skin is tough, elastic, and resistant, and that this was one of the reasons he did not buy the SBT:
I cannot accept the premise that this bullet [CE 399] thrashed around in all that bony tissue
and lost only 1.4 to 2.4 grains of its original weight. I cannot believe, either, that this bullet
is going to emerge . . . with its lands and grooves intact.
Mr. Specter and the Commission have asked too much from this bullet. You must remember
that next to bone, the skin offers offers the greatest resistance to a bullet in its course
through the body than any other kind of tissue. The energy of the bullet is sometimes so
spent that it can't quite get out through the final layer of skin, and it comes to rest just
beneath the outside layer of skin. If it does get through the skin, it may not
have enough energy to penetrate even an undershirt or a light cotton blouse. . . .
This single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven layers
of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers of tough
human skin, this bullet [CE 399] passed through other layers of soft tissue; and
then these shattered bones!
I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what Mr. Specter and the Commission
have demanded of it; and I don't think they have really stopped to think out carefully what
they have asked of this bullet for the simple reason that they still do not understand the
resistant nature of human skin to bullets. (Where Death Delights, pp. 62-63)
-
Clearly, you did not bother to read Hunt's article. He addresses S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's many flawed arguments and shifting assumptions. Here's the link to Hunt's article again:
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the greatest forensic pathologists of the 20th century, who supervised over 10,000 gunshot-wound autopsies, noted that human skin is tough, elastic, and resistant, and that this was one of the reasons he did not buy the SBT:
I cannot accept the premise that this bullet [CE 399] thrashed around in all that bony tissue
and lost only 1.4 to 2.4 grains of its original weight. I cannot believe, either, that this bullet
is going to emerge . . . with its lands and grooves intact.
Mr. Specter and the Commission have asked too much from this bullet. You must remember
that next to bone, the skin offers the greatest resistance to a bullet in its course
through the body than any other kind of tissue. The energy of the bullet is sometimes so
spent that it can't quite get out through the final layer of skin, and it comes to rest just
beneath the outside layer of skin. If it does get through the skin, it may not
have enough energy to penetrate even an undershirt or a light cotton blouse. . . .
This single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven layers
of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers of tough
human skin, this bullet [CE 399] passed through other layers of soft tissue; and
then these shattered bones!
I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what Mr. Specter and the Commission
have demanded of it; and I don't think they have really stopped to think out carefully what
they have asked of this bullet for the simple reason that they still do not understand the
resistant nature of human skin to bullets. (Where Death Delights, pp. 62-63)
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Did John Hunt pass away before he could watch Luke and Mike Haag prove in the 2013 PBS NOVA documentary, "Cold Case JFK," that that kind of bullet can penetrate 36 inches of pine wood without being deformed, and that it has a tendency to start yawing / tumbling when it exits something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck?
-- Tom
-
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Did John Hunt pass away before he could watch Luke and Mike Haag prove in the 2013 PBS NOVA documentary, "Cold Case JFK," that that kind of bullet can penetrate 36 inches of pine wood without being deformed, and that it has a tendency to start yawing / tumbling when it exits something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck?
-- Tom
So you're still assuming that a bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits, even though we know the tie had no hole through it? Ignoring hard physical evidence that destroys the SBT will not make that evidence go away. This is called self-delusion and denial.
The Haags??? You're citing the Haags??? The Haags are quacks when it comes to the JFK case. They clearly failed to do their homework. Their stuff was debunked years ago. Dr. Gary Aguilar discusses just a couple of the problems with the junk science behind the Haags' SBT research:
To buck up the controversial SBT, Lucien Haag “proved” that the bullet that struck Governor Connally had passed through JFK first. His evidence? Haag said that the missile didn’t leave a small, puncture-type wound in the Governor’s back, like a typical entrance wound. Instead, it left an oval, 3-cm long, “yawed” entry wound, the full length of Commission Exhibit, #399, the so-called “magic bullet.” The ovality of that back wound was forensic proof, Haag asserted, that the bullet had been destabilized by passing through JFK and was traveling sideways, not point forward, when it hit Connally’s back. As we pointed out, this particular myth has long been debunked. Connally’s back wound was no more oval than JFK’s skull wound, and no one has ever argued JFK’s fatal missile had been destabilized and was yawing when it took the President’s life. (https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/nova-s-cold-case-jfk-junk-science-pbs)
The Haags should have known that Dr. Shaw said Connally's back wound was 1.5 cm wide, the same width as JFK's head wound. The 3-cm size was the size of the wound after Shaw debrided and cleaned it, as Shaw himself explained. This is JFK 101 stuff, and the Haags couldn't even get this simple stuff right. They used the misleading 3-cm size to support their assumption that the bullet that allegedly exited JFK's throat was traveling sideways when it hit Connally, even though Dr. Shaw said the bullet created a narrow wound track through Connally's chest. How does a bullet traveling sideways create a 1.5-cm wide entry wound and a narrow wound track through a torso? And on and on we could go.
More reading on the Haags' junk science:
https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/AguilarWechtAFTA2016.pdf
https://share.google/nZYCiaroTEpjo1c5h
Isn't it curious that in every other SBT wound ballistics test, FMJ bullets that did even just some of the damage attributed to CE 399 emerged more deformed than CE 399? Don't you find that curious?
BTW, can you tell where in their writings the Haags address the fact that JFK's tie had no hole through it, proving that no bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits? Where do they address the fact that the shirt slits had no fabric missing from them and no metallic traces around them, that one of the Parkland nurses confirmed that nurses made the slits, that the slits look nothing like any of the other clothing exit holes in JFK and Connally's clothing, and that Dr. Carrico confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar and tie?
-
[...]
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Please tell us, again, how many bad guys you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the planting of false evidence, the getting-away, the altering of photos, films, and x-rays, and the all-important (and evidently continuing!!!) cover up?
Just "20 to 30"?
Really?
Were they multi-tasking like crazy?
Also, please answer this question:
Does Vladimir Putin pay you, or do you do it for free?
-- Tom
-
Bumping this reply because Tom Graves ignored it and once again responded with his phony strawman questions about how many people were involved in the plot and cover-up.
So you're still assuming that a bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits, even though we know the tie had no hole through it? Ignoring hard physical evidence that destroys the SBT will not make that evidence go away. This is called self-delusion and denial.
The Haags??? You're citing the Haags??? The Haags are quacks when it comes to the JFK case. They clearly failed to do their homework. Their stuff was debunked years ago. Dr. Gary Aguilar discusses just a couple of the problems with the junk science behind the Haags' SBT research:
To buck up the controversial SBT, Lucien Haag “proved” that the bullet that struck Governor Connally had passed through JFK first. His evidence? Haag said that the missile didn’t leave a small, puncture-type wound in the Governor’s back, like a typical entrance wound. Instead, it left an oval, 3-cm long, “yawed” entry wound, the full length of Commission Exhibit, #399, the so-called “magic bullet.” The ovality of that back wound was forensic proof, Haag asserted, that the bullet had been destabilized by passing through JFK and was traveling sideways, not point forward, when it hit Connally’s back. As we pointed out, this particular myth has long been debunked. Connally’s back wound was no more oval than JFK’s skull wound, and no one has ever argued JFK’s fatal missile had been destabilized and was yawing when it took the President’s life. (https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/nova-s-cold-case-jfk-junk-science-pbs)
The Haags should have known that Dr. Shaw said Connally's back wound was 1.5 cm wide, the same width as JFK's head wound. The 3-cm size was the size of the wound after Shaw debrided and cleaned it, as Shaw himself explained. This is JFK 101 stuff, and the Haags couldn't even get this simple stuff right. They used the misleading 3-cm size to support their assumption that the bullet that allegedly exited JFK's throat was traveling sideways when it hit Connally, even though Dr. Shaw said the bullet created a narrow wound track through Connally's chest. How does a bullet traveling sideways create a 1.5-cm wide entry wound and a narrow wound track through a torso? And on and on we could go.
More reading on the Haags' junk science:
https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/AguilarWechtAFTA2016.pdf
https://share.google/nZYCiaroTEpjo1c5h
Isn't it curious that in every other SBT wound ballistics test, FMJ bullets that did even just some of the damage attributed to CE 399 emerged more deformed than CE 399? Don't you find that curious?
BTW, can you tell where in their writings the Haags address the fact that JFK's tie had no hole through it, proving that no bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits? Where do they address the fact that the shirt slits had no fabric missing from them and no metallic traces around them, that one of the Parkland nurses confirmed that nurses made the slits, that the slits look nothing like any of the other clothing exit holes in JFK and Connally's clothing, and that Dr. Carrico confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar and tie?
-
Bumping this reply because Tom Graves ignored it and once again responded with his phony strawman questions about how many people were involved in the plot and cover-up.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Do you deny that the Haags showed that that kind of bullet can penetrate 36 inches of pine wood without being deformed, and that it has a tendency to start yawing / tumbling upon exiting something soft -- like a bloc of ballistics gel or a human neck?
-- Tom
-
BTW, speaking of the Haags, there is good reason to doubt their truthfulness. Regarding Oswald's alleged shooting feat, Luke and Mike Haag claim that they duplicated it many times:
[Luke]"It’s a very clear picture. There was plenty of time to shoot all three shots from when the car turned the corner into Elm. We tried replicating it ourselves and could do so many times."
[Mike]"I've shot this drill these distances with a firearm that my dad acquired that is exactly the same as Oswald's rifle with ammunition of this type. These are not really tough shots."
Wow! That's amazing, considering that the WC's three Master-rated riflemen, using the alleged murder weapon itself, did not even come close to duplicating Oswald's supposed performance. In the 1967 CBS rifle test, not one of the 11 expert riflemen duplicated Oswald's alleged feat (a few of them did score two or three hits but only on their second or third attempts--Oswald would have had only one attempt--and they were all allowed to fire practice rounds before the test and did not have to fire through a half-open window in cramped conditions).
The Haags have also claimed that an FMJ bullet they fired into pine wood penetrated 3 feet into the wood and emerged undeformed. Pure hokum. No FMJ bullet tearing through 3 feet of pine is going to emerge with its lands and grooves intact. Here's a picture of an FMJ bullet that penetrated only a few inches into a piece of store-bought pine wood--notice that the bullet's lands and grooves are twisted and no longer run straight:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10009147442527916&set=pcb.24054241594265168
Again, that FMJ bullet only penetrated a matter of a few inches into pine wood, yet it emerged with its lands and grooves distorted. But, the Haags claim that their FMJ bullet penetrated 36 inches of pine wood and emerged undeformed. Bollocks. Hogwash.
More reading on the Haags' junk science:
https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/AguilarWechtAFTA2016.pdf
https://share.google/nZYCiaroTEpjo1c5h
Finally, regarding Tom Graves' silly question about the number of plotters, I have explained to him several times that when I say "20 or 30," I am talking about the head planners who initiated the plot and who knew all the components of the plot, and that there were dozens of other people involved but that many of them did not realize they were aiding the plot and many knew very little about the overall plot and its scope.
How many people who were involved with the planning and preparations for D-Day knew all the components of the plan and understood how the various units would execute the plan? And mind you, D-Day was no criminal conspiracy but a closely guarded military secret, and the D-Day operation involved the deployment of hundreds of thousands of troops, hundreds of Navy ships, and thousands of military aircraft. At the most, perhaps 100 of those who planned D-Day knew the entire scope and logistics of the operation.
Or, take the Iran-Contra conspiracy. There were maybe two or three dozen high-level plotters who knew the whole scheme and the big picture. Most of those who were involved in the plot either did not know they were aiding a plot or only understood one small aspect of the plot and did not realize how their aspect related to others.
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BTW, speaking of the Haags, there is good reason to doubt their truthfulness. Regarding Oswald's alleged shooting feat, Luke Haag claims that he and his brother duplicated it many times.
Wow! That's amazing, considering that the WC's three Master-rated riflemen, using the alleged murder weapon itself, did not even come close to duplicating Oswald's supposed performance. In the 1967 CBS rifle test, not one of the 11 expert riflemen duplicated Oswald's alleged feat (a few of them did score two or three hits but only on their second or third attempts--Oswald would have had only one attempt--and they were all allowed to fire practice rounds before the test and did not have to fire through a half-open window in cramped conditions).
Dear Comrade Griffith,
How many seconds did those experts have to fire all three shots?
Six?
Seven?
Gasp . . . eight?
Based on a scientific analysis of the timing of the conscious reactions of five people in the limo and two others near it to the sounds of Oswald's first, missing-everything shot half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming, Oswald took 10.2 seconds.
The Haags have also claimed that an FMJ bullet they fired into pine wood penetrated 3 feet into the wood and emerged undeformed.
They didn't claim that, Comrade Griffith.
They showed it.
Perhaps you missed it.
Or . . . gasp . . . do you think the "Cold Case JFK" show was a hoax, and that the Haags are just two of the oodles and gobs of bad guys who are still trying to cover up the actions of the evil, evil CIA or [fill in the blank] on 11/22/63?
Do you think the evidence that Russia installed The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx") as our "president" on 20 January 2017 is a hoax, too?
Finally, regarding Tom Graves' silly question about the number of plotters, I have explained to him several times that when I say "20 or 30," I am talking about the head planners who initiated the plot and who knew all the components of the plot, and that there were dozens of other people involved but that many of them did not realize they were aiding the plot and many knew very little about the overall plot and its scope.
So, a couple hundred, then?
Couple thousand?
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Griffith,
How many seconds did those experts have to fire all three shots? Six? Seven? Gasp . . . eight? Based on a scientific analysis of the timing of the conscious reactions of five people in the limo and two others near it to the sounds of Oswald's first, missing-everything shot half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming, Oswald took 10.2 seconds.
You and others who keep peddling this argument continue to ignore the fact that the gunman would have had to go two for two in 5.6 seconds, no matter how much time he had after firing the first shot. According to your impossible Z224-lapel-flip SBT, the gunman's final two shots came after JFK emerged from beneath the oak tree, which would have given him no more than 5.6 seconds to fire his final two shots.
I repeat that the Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test did not even come close to duplicating Oswald's alleged shooting feat, even though they fired from only 30 feet up, fired at stationary target boards, and took as much time as they wanted for their first shot. The WC's rifle test is the most revealing and crucial because the riflemen used the alleged murder weapon itself.
The WC riflemen's most inaccurate shots were their second and third shots--indeed many of those shots missed the target silhouettes entirely or landed near their edge! Their most accurate shot was their first shot. But you guys assume that your "sharpshooter" lone gunman's most accurate shots were his second and third shots.
They didn't claim that, Comrade Griffith. They showed it. Perhaps you missed it.
They showed nothing. They wrongly assumed CE 399 exited JFK's throat, ignoring the fact that we know that's impossible because there was no hole through JFK's tie. They wrongly assumed Connally's back wound was 3 cm wide so they could assume the bullet was traveling sideways when it hit him, even though Dr. Robert Shaw, the surgeon who operated on the wound, said the wound was 1.5 cm wide, not 3 cm wide. They assumed it hit Connally's fifth rib while traveling sideways, even though Shaw said the wound tract was small in width.
BTW, the Haags put a 8-10-inch gelatin block with a cloth on it in front of the pine wood, so their test bullet did not strike the wood directly but first had to go through the gelatin block. Are you aware of that?
Are you aware that in their analysis of the head shot, the Haags erroneously assume the entry point was in the cowlick, nearly 4 inches higher than where the autopsy doctors placed it? Even your favorite expert Dr. S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n admits the cowlick site is fiction. I'm sure the Haags are oblivious of the fact that Dr. Boswell told both the HSCA and the ARRB that part of the rear head entry wound was contained in a skull fragment that arrived during the autopsy, which proves the wound was not in the cowlick (and also proves that the late-arriving skull fragment was occipital bone).
And how do you explain the fact that in every single SBT test where animal or human bones were used and where the test bullets did at least part of the bone damage attributed to CE 399, the bullets emerged much more deformed than CE 399? How do you explain the fact that bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged as deformed or more deformed than CE 399? Even in the 1967 CBS SBT test, not one of the bullets that passed through 12 inches of gelatin and then hit a cadaver wrist had the energy to penetrate the simulated human thigh, and several of them did not even exit the wrist.
Or . . . gasp . . . do you think the "Cold Case JFK" show was a hoax, and that the Haags are just two of the oodles and gobs of bad guys who are still trying to cover up the actions of the evil, evil CIA or [fill in the blank] on 11/22/63?
The Cold Case JFK show is riddled with errors, many of them inexcusable. Again, the Haags erroneously assume Connally's back wound was 3 cm wide and that therefore the bullet hit him while traveling sideways, but the wound was only 1.5 cm wide, the same width as JFK's head wound. The Haags have the SBT bullet hitting Connally's rib sideways, ignoring the fact that Dr. Shaw noted that the Connally chest bullet created a "small tunneling wound" and that it "stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it." They don't explain the fact that JFK's tie had no hole through it, that there was no fabric missing from the shirt slits, that there was no metallic reside found around the slits, and that Parkland medical personnel have confirmed that the slits were made by the nurses.
The Haags make no effort to explain all the previous SBT tests that contradict their claims. They assume a priori that the bullet was a 6.5 mm Carcano missile, even though NAA has destroyed that assumption. They assume the shot came from the sixth-floor window but do not even address the forensic evidence that the bullet hit JFK's back at an upward angle and that the wound was tunneled upward--the only way to make that work is to assume JFK was leaning over 60 degrees forward when the bullet hit.
The Haags ignore the timing problem in JFK and Connally's reactions. They ignore JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, the second-most visible reaction in the Zapruder film. This dramatic reaction proves JFK was hit by two bullets to the torso before he was hit in the head--the Z186-190 hit and the hit that visibly jolts his upper body forward and causes his arms to fling upward starting in Z226. The Haags ignore the clear indications that JFK was hit before Z190. They ignore Connally's adamant rejection of the idea that he was hit before Z229. They ignore the violent slamming down of Connally's right shoulder in Z238-244--the right shoulder collapse is self-evident proof that Connally was correct in identifying Z234 as the moment of impact, and that impact begins to slam his shoulder downward just 4/18ths of a second later.
And on and on and on we could go.
Do you think the evidence that Russia installed The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx") as our "president" on 20 January 2017 is a hoax, too?
Oh, boy, so you still buy the fairy tale that the Russians rigged the 2016 election to elect Trump???! Umm, even Special Counsel Robert Mueller, appointed to investigate the matter, admitted he found not one shred of evidence that the Russians stole the election for Trump.
So, a couple hundred, then? Couple thousand?
Somehow you've completely misread, or just don't understand, my plain-English explanation. Please re-read it. You keep ignoring the precedent of the Iran-Contra conspiracy, where only a few dozen people were the prime movers behind the plot, and where the dozens of others who were involved either had no idea they were aiding a plot or only vaguely understood that they were involved in something criminal. I cited the example of D-Day, where no more than about 100 people planned the overall operation, knew all the logistics and units that would be involved, and knew how each op order related to the op orders and to the overall objectives.
I guess if you'd stop ignoring these precedents, you wouldn't be able to keep asking the same silly strawman questions about the JFK plot, so perhaps that's why you keep ignoring them.
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You continue to ignore the fact that the gunmen [sic] would have had to go two-for-two in 5.6 seconds, no matter how much time he had after firing the first shot.
With an accurate bolt-action rifle that already has a round in the chamber and more in the magazine, what's so hard about hitting a target twice in 5.6 seconds at 70 yards and 90 yards when the target is travelling slowly and almost directly away from you down a slight downhill slope?
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With an accurate bolt-action rifle that already has a round in the chamber and more in the magazine, what's so hard about hitting a target twice in 5.6 seconds at 70 yards and 90 yards when the target is travelling slowly and almost directly away from you down a slight downhill slope?
Dear Fellow Conspiracy Theorist Graves (since you claim that a massive Russian conspiracy rigged the 2016 election for Trump),
"What's so hard" about it? Well, again, as I told you in my reply, the three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test failed to do it, even though they were firing from only 30 feet up, were firing at stationary targets, and took as long as they wanted for their first shot. In the 1967 CBS rifle test, not one of the 11 expert riflemen scored two hits on his first attempt. Are you able to process that these facts prove that going two for two in 5.6 seconds was a feat that 14 expert riflemen, three of whom were Master-rated, were unable to perform, and that those riflemen were far more skilled and experienced than Oswald?
I notice you ignored all of my points about the Haags' faulty claims. A reminder:
-- They assumed a bullet exited JFK's throat and shirt slits, but we know this is impossible because there was no hole through JFK's tie. So from the get-go, the Haags' entire case is built on a myth.
-- They assumed that the back-wound bullet was a 6.5 FMJ bullet, but NAA testing has contradicted this assumption.
-- They ignored the hard physical evidence of the rear JFK clothing holes, which prove the back wound was several inches below the throat wound.
-- They said Connally's back wound was 3 cm wide, but it was only 1.5 cm wide.
-- They erroneously doubled the size of Connally's back wound so they could claim that the bullet hit his back and rib while traveling sideways, but the wound was only 1.5 cm wide and the surgeon who operated on Connally's torso said the bullet created a "small tunneling wound" and that it "stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it."
-- They assumed the back-wound bullet came from the TSBD's sixth-floor window but did not explain the fact that the bullet struck the back wound at an upward angle and that the interior of the wound was tunneled upward. To make this work, they would have had to lean JFK at least 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck.
-- They did not explain the stark difference between the exit wound in their ballistics gelatin and the small (3-5 mm), clean, punched-in wound in JFK's throat. Nor did they explain why all the exit wounds in the WC's SBT test were twice as large as JFK's throat wound.
-- In their analysis of the rear headshot, they assumed the bullet struck in the cowlick, nearly 4 inches higher than the location given in the autopsy report. Even Dr. Larry S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n, whom you guys love to quote, acknowledges that the cowlick entry site is fiction. So from the get-go the Haags' arguments about the rear headshot are based on an erroneous location for the entry wound.
-- They made no effort to explain why all the previous SBT tests where test bullets did at least part of the bone damage attributed to CE 399 emerged more deformed than CE 399.
-- They made no effort to explain why bullets fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test emerged as deformed or more deformed than CE 399.
Many more problems with the Haags' "research" could be cited.
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The three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test failed to do it, even though they were firing from only 30 feet up, were firing at stationary targets, and took as long as they wanted for their first shot.
Comrade Griffith,
Did they try to squeeze off all three shots in 6.8 seconds or something like that?
-- Tom
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Comrade Griffith, Did they try to squeeze off all three shots in 6.8 seconds or something like that?-- Tom
Is this how you explain in your own mind the fact that the WC's three Master-rated riflemen, using the alleged murder weapon itself, did not even come close to duplicating Oswald's alleged performance? This suggests to me that you are immune to fact and reason when it comes to the JFK case.
Do you understand what the NRA rating of Master means? Even the Army's Ronald Simmons told the WC that the Master rating was far above the Marine Corps rating of Sharpshooter. There's simply no comparison.
The only way you can expand the firing time to 10-11 seconds is to make the silly assumption that your supposedly highly skilled lone gunman was not only foolish enough to fire almost straight down with his first shot but was stupid enough to fire when a traffic-signal pole or a tree branch was smack-dab in the middle of his center of aim, or very close to it. The tale gets even worse and sillier when you try to explain the manhole-cover-grass bullet hole and the Tague curb bullet mark and wounding with a fragment from this mythical shot.
(Trying to attribute the Tague bullet mark and wound to a fragment from the head shot is just about as absurd, given that any fragments would have exited the top or right side of the head, would have been heading away from the Tague curb/Tague, and would have had to clear both the roll bar and the windshield before starting its amazing 260-foot journey.)
If there was a shot in the missing-frame range of Z110-117 (or pseudo Z110-117), how in the world do you explain the Z145-155 shot and the Z186-190 shot? Let's take the Z145-155 shot, since the Z186-190 shot is covered adequately in the HSCA PEP report, in PEP member William Hartmann's HSCA testimony, and by Olson and Turner in the Journal of Forensic Sciences:
-- There is a noticeable blur episode in the Zapruder film at around Z158.
-- Connally starts to turn his head rapidly to the right at Z162.
-- A 10-year-old girl named Rosemary Willis, running along the grass to the left of the limousine, begins to noticeably slow down between Z162 and Z174, and she is standing still by no later than Z187. When she was an adult, Ms. Willis explained that she stopped running because she heard a loud noise behind her.
Are you seriously going to argue that the Z158 blur episode and Connally's and Rosemary Willis's reactions were in response to a shot at pseudo Z110-117? Really?
The problem is that you can't objectively, credibly analyze Oswald's alleged shooting feat and all the shot reactions that refute it because you are chained down by the three-shots-only myth.
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Is this how you explain in your own mind the fact that the WC's three Master-rated riflemen, using the alleged murder weapon itself, did not even come close to duplicating Oswald's alleged performance? This suggests to me that you are immune to fact and reason when it comes to the JFK case.
Do you understand what the NRA rating of Master means? Even the Army's Ronald Simmons told the WC that the Master rating was far above the Marine Corps rating of Sharpshooter. There's simply no comparison.
The only way you can expand the firing time to 10-11 seconds is to make the silly assumption that your supposedly highly skilled lone gunman was not only foolish enough to fire almost straight down with his first shot but was stupid enough to fire when a traffic-signal pole or a tree branch was smack-dab in the middle of his center of aim, or very close to it. The tale gets even worse and sillier when you try to explain the manhole-cover-grass bullet hole and the Tague curb bullet mark and wounding with a fragment from this mythical shot.
(Trying to attribute the Tague bullet mark and wound to a fragment from the head shot is just about as absurd, given that any fragments would have exited the top or right side of the head, would have been heading away from the Tague curb/Tague, and would have had to clear both the roll bar and the windshield before starting its amazing 260-foot journey.)
If there was a shot in the missing-frame range of Z110-117 (or pseudo Z110-117), how in the world do you explain the Z145-155 shot and the Z186-190 shot? Let's take the Z145-155 shot, since the Z186-190 shot is covered adequately in the HSCA PEP report, in PEP member William Hartmann's HSCA testimony, and by Olson and Turner in the Journal of Forensic Sciences:
-- There is a noticeable blur episode in the Zapruder film at around Z158.
-- Connally starts to turn his head rapidly to the right at Z162.
-- A 10-year-old girl named Rosemary Willis, running along the grass to the left of the limousine, begins to noticeably slow down between Z162 and Z174, and she is standing still by no later than Z187. When she was an adult, Ms. Willis explained that she stopped running because she heard a loud noise behind her.
Are you seriously going to argue that the Z158 blur episode and Connally's and Rosemary Willis's reactions were in response to a shot at pseudo Z110-117? Really?
The problem is that you can't objectively, credibly analyze Oswald's alleged shooting feat and all the shot reactions that refute it because you are chained down by the three-shots-only myth.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
I guess you don't want to answer the question.
Pity that.
Carry on.
"Former" KGB officer Vladimir Putin cherishes what you do.
-- Tom
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Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling / yawing when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
It gives credibility to the theory that it struck something hard on its base once. I don't see how that supports the SBT which struck something hard at least twice.
The only way it could be consistent with the SBT is if it struck something hard more than once but in the same place on its base.
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It gives credibility to the theory that it struck something hard on its base once. I don't see how that supports the SBT which struck something hard at least twice.
The only way it could be consistent with the SBT is if it struck something hard more than once but in the same place on its base.
Seein' as how Connally's fifth rib was soft, thin, and pliable, the only hard thing CE-399 struck was the radial bone in Connally's wrist.
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Seein' as how Connally's fifth rib was soft, thin, and pliable, the only hard thing CE-399 struck was the radial bone in Connally's wrist.
The above is like saying the only "hard thing" a bullet struck was a light pole. You guys continue running away from the "pristine" condition of this bullet. And then there's the minute grain loss of CE399. The negligible grain loss issue is exactly why Humes did not support the SBT.
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The above is like saying the only "hard thing" a bullet struck was a light pole. You guys continue running away from the "pristine" condition of this bullet. And then there's the minute grain loss of CE399. The negligible grain loss issue is exactly why Humes did not support the SBT.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Me:
Is it possible that CE-399 extruded and lost 4 grains of lead/antimony core in wounding Kennedy and Connally?
Grok:
A loss of 4 grains (approximately 0.26 grams) [from CE-399] is within the realm of possibility, as the bullet’s core could extrude through the open base or microfractures in the jacket. The Warren Commission’s wound ballistics tests at Edgewood Arsenal, using similar WCC ammunition, showed that these bullets could lose small amounts of lead when striking bone or tissue at velocities around 1,900-2,000 feet per second (muzzle velocity was approximately 2,160 fps, slowing slightly before impact). The recovered bullet’s weight of 158.6 grains was described as “several grains less than the average,” suggesting that a loss of up to 4 grains is plausible if the bullet was on the higher end of the weight range (e.g., 162 grains, as some surplus Carcano bullets were reported).
. . . . . . .
How much of lead/antimony core do you figure was retrieved and how much do you figure was left in JBC's body, altogether?
Couple ounces?
-- Tom
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So you wanna swear by Humes except when he calls out the SBT? Humes had his shortcomings but he obviously could add and subtract. The "stuff" this cast of characters took to the grave would curl the hair. Enter Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE!
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So you wanna swear by Humes except when he calls out the SBT? Humes had his shortcomings but he obviously could add and subtract. The "stuff" this cast of characters took to the grave would curl the hair. Enter Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE!
Dear Comrade Storing,
AFAIK, the only thing Humes didn't screw up was writing down the measurement that Boswell told him to write down regarding the distance from the tip of JFK's mastoid process to the entry wound in his lower neck / upper back.
Or was it the other way around?
-- Tom
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The JFK autopsy BACK photo puts all of this to rest. That's why none of you want to mention it.