JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 04:22:08 AM
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Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
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Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
(https://i.ibb.co/Df5FbsQt/CE399-end-view.webp)
The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.
Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwC9z4B8/Expended-bullets.jpg)
JohnM
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Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance. See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).
-- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
-- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.
-- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.
-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.
-- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
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In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance.
What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?
Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?
If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?
No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?
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This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets were fired into cotton wadding at near muzzle velocity of the rifle.
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance. See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists at near muzzle velocity of the rifle. Dr. Joseph Dolce was not the Army's leading wound ballistics expert. Nor did he conduct the WC's SBT test.
"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472
-- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
The bullet was not tumbling through JFK's neck. It began tumbling upon exiting.
(https://i.imgur.com/K3hBFZg.png)
-- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.
Mr. FRAZIER - In each instance for these holes, the one through the button line and the one through the buttonhole line, the hole amounts to a ragged slit approximately one-half inch in height. It is oriented vertically, and the fibers of the cloth are protruding outward, that is, have been pushed from the inside out. I could not actually determine from the characteristics of the hole whether or not it was caused by a bullet. However, I can say that it was caused by a projectile of some type which exited from the shirt at that point and that is again assuming that when I first examined the shirt it was--it had not been altered from the condition it was in at the time the hole was made.
No metallic residue would be expected to be found around the exit hole.
-- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.
-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.
You are falsely assuming that the bullet would have had to pass though the middle of the tie knot.
Mr. FRAZIER - When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button.
Mr. SPECTER - As you now indicate on your own tie, you are indicating on the portion of the tie to your right?
Mr. FRAZIER - If it was on my tie it would be on the left side of the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Your left side.
Mr. FRAZIER - The left side of my tie. There is a nick on the left side of the tie if you consider it as left and right according to the person wearing the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Does the nick in the tie provide any indication of the direction of the missile?
Mr. FRAZIER - The nick is elongated horizontally, indicating a possible horizontal direction but it does not indicate that the projectile which caused it was exiting or entering at that point. The fibers were not disturbed in a characteristic manner which would permit any conclusion in that connection.
Mr. SPECTER - Is the nick consistent with an exiting path?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, yes.
-- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/pdf/fackler.pdf
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpeg)
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The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.
CE 399 didn't hit any bones in Connally because it was never in JFK. It never exited the shirt slits and could not have nicked the tie knot. Two Parkland medical staff confirmed that the nurses made the shirt slits, which is why no metallic traces were found around slits and why they had no fabric missing. This is not to mention that we have known for years now that the back wound had no exit point.
I'm just trying to fathom how you rationalize in your own mind your refusal to deal with the evidence that on the night of the autopsy the autopsy doctors positively, absolutely established that the back wound had no exit point. Even when trying to bend the facts to suit the lone-gunman theory, Humes was initially unwilling to say the throat wound was an exit wound for the back wound--instead, in a draft of the autopsy report, he said it was an exit hole for a fragment from the head shot.
And, FYI, the magic bullet would have had to smash Connally's fifth rib bone--specifically, to completely destroy 5 inches of that bone before ever reaching the radius bone in the wrist.
What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?
Lattimer's SBT test and the AAT SBT test prove this is a non-issue. And, again, even bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more damage than CE 399.
Also, I take it you still haven't bothered to watch the documentary Reasonable Doubt?
Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?
I think you need to do some homework before you discuss the SBT on a public forum again. I suggest you start with John Hunt's superb article:
Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?
You didn't say this. You referred to after the bullet exits. But, other SBT believers have argued that the magic bullet caused the damage on the tip of T1, which would have caused the bullet to start tumbling or at least yawing substantially.
Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?
Again, see Hunt's article, for starters.
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Griffith,
You're so full of KGB-approved beans, I can smell you from here.
The following is an excerpt from a post by Bill Roe at Quora eight months ago:
Even conspiracy advocate Dr. Cyril Wecht testified before the HSCA that he agreed a bullet entered Kennedy’s back and exited his throat. This would reasonably have caused it to begin tumbling or yawing (skewed) as it exited JFK and next entered Connally's back, causing an oblong round rather than a round that would be expected from a stable bullet entering straighter. Connally's oblong back entry wound is only consistent with a tumbling or yawing skewed bullet. Some have suggested the bullet was shot from a different angle that could also cause a similarly shaped entry wound but that would obviously have resulted in a very different path through Connally. The tumbling bullet would be expected to shed significant velocity as it passed through Connally's body, striking a rib before exiting an inch below his right nipple. Push on your own rib. The ribs are comparatively flexible so would not necessarily cause damage to the much harder full metal jacketed Carcano bullet. Dr. Shaw who operated on Connally's chest even explained the soft rib in his testimony and how the bullet struck the rib at a shallow angle and no metal was found in Connally's chest to indicate damage to the bullet from hitting the rib. The slowing bullet then exited Connally and entered and passed through Connally's wrist breaking the wrist bone before exiting and entering Connally's thigh where it stopped after penetrating only about a half inch. The main deformation to the bullet is at its base which is consistent with the bullet having rotated/tumbled as it passed through Connally which would slow the bullet.
As stated previously, bone will break at velocities as low as 163 fps which is consistent with a bullet shedding significant velocity as it passed through Kennedy and Connally. Obviously, there was little energy left after exiting the wrist since it caused only a shallow wound and fell out “somewhere" since it was not recovered in the OR.
Doctor Shaw who was operating on Connally said at a news conference while Connally was still in the OR that he believed all of Connally's wounds were from a single missile. The bullet passing through Kennedy only encountered soft tissue so would lose minimal speed. The Carcano bullet’s metal jacket would require significant force to become deformed. The damage to the back end of the bullet suggest it likely struck the wrist while at an angle rather than straight on further allowing it to rotate rather than deform. Still the bullet is noticeably deformed at its base and so must have struck bone. Note that no other bullet was recovered from Connally's shallow thigh wound so must have fallen out “somewhere”.
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All of the forensic pathologists for the HSCA including well-known Warren Commision critic Dr Cyril Wecht agreed that Kennedy was struck in the back by a bullet that exited his throat. Dr. Wecht continues to argue against the single bullet but offered no reasonable explanation for what became of the bullet after passing through Kennedy. It seems only logical that it would have had to strike Connally. Wecht misrepresents the relative positions of Kennedy and Connally in his presentations and also claims Connally was struck around frame 238 rather than 223 as we see in the Zapruder clip. Prior to the public availability of the Zapruder film, most people were only able to see still frames which can be more difficult to understand than the slow-motion clips we now are now able to better micro-analyze. I imagine many people remain unaware that a bullet can break bone at lower velocities and that a full metal jacket bullet will easily pass through tissue and deform minimally at those same lower velocities.
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Dr. Shaw, who operated on Governor Connally's chest wounds, testified that about four inches of a layer from the end of Connally's rib bone had been "stripped away" and would have caused very little defection to the bullet. He said that although the bullet struck near the forward end of the rib, it caused a fracture at the opposite end near where it attaches to the spine at the other end of the rib from where the bullet struck. He stated the bullet followed the rib's "line of inclination" meaning it was a glancing parallel hit or shallow angle along the side of the bone in the direction of the rib bone that he said "stripped away" about 10 cm (four inches) of rib, rather than a steep angle direct hit. Such a glancing blow on what Dr. Shaw described as "spongy" (flexible] area would not necessarily be expected to cause minimal if any deformation to a full metal jacked bullet.
Relevant quotes:
Dr. SHAW - The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.
He further explained how that portion of the rib that was stripped away is soft and “spongy" (flexible) suggesting it would not likely cause much deformation to a full metal jacketed (fmj) bullet which is designed with a hard metal layer that resists deformation.
Dr. SHAW - The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.
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There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
(https://i.ibb.co/Df5FbsQt/CE399-end-view.webp)
The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.
Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwC9z4B8/Expended-bullets.jpg)
JohnM
"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."
This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?
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"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."
This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?
So, what you are insinuating is John and everyone else does not know, but you do know what the bullet should look like to match the injuries. Especially given the wrist injury.
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Dr. John Lattimer's SBT test was actually fairly realistic, but, as was his habit, he misrepresented the results by falsely claiming that his test produced a bullet with the same minimal damage as CE 399.
For his SBT test, Lattimer used animal tissue to simulate Kennedy's neck, a rib cage to simulate Connally's torso, and radius bones wrapped in simulated forearms to simulate Connally's forearm. Lattimer said four bullets out of 20 struck all three objects. A picture of one of the test bullets shows it was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399. When Stewart Galanor asked Lattimer, in a filmed interview, if he could examine the bullets that struck all three simulation objects, Lattimer said he had thrown them away (Galanor, Cover-Up, New York: Kestrel Books, 1998, p. 42).
Or, let's take the 1967 CBS test when CBS hired Dr. Olivier to conduct a simulation of the SBT. The test was a complete sham because it simply ignored most of the damage that CE 399 supposedly did.
In a televised interview, Olivier admitted that his CBS test did not include striking a rib: "Of course, we have no rib here [in the test], but it still simulates passing through the flesh."
Olivier further admitted that even without simulating the damage to Connally's rib, some the bullets failed to exit the wrist: "In some cases, it passed through the wrist; in other cases it lodged in the wrist."
Crucially, not a single bullet in the CBS test managed to lodge in the simulated thigh.
A 12-inch gelatin block was used to simulate Connally's chest. By failing to put a simulated rib bone within this block, Olivier ensured that the test bullets would not become badly deformed while passing through the simulated chest. But this led to another complication: It meant the bullets would strike the simulated wrist at a greater velocity than the bullet presumed to have struck Connally's wrist--yet, even so, not one of the bullets lodged in the simulated thigh.
I should add that the CBS test also did not include passing through a human neck. Yes, that's right: The test made no effort to simulate the neck. Its bullets went straight into a simulated chest without first having to rip through a neck.
In 1968, a CBS producer named Stephen White wrote a book titled Should We Now Believe the Warren Report?, which brazenly misrepresented the CBS SBT test results, falsely claiming they proved the SBT was feasible. White also showed he knew little about wound ballistics.
White claimed "the Governor's chest wound was clearly caused by a bullet traveling at high velocity" (p. 71). But, the alleged murder file was a low-velocity weapon, as FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier admitted to the WC (3 H 414).
Incredibly, White claimed that CE 399 did not hit "a hard structure" during its alleged journey, bafflingly ignoring the fact that CE 399 supposedly destroyed 5 inches of rib bone and then smashed Connally's radius bone! Said White,
"A full-jacketed bullet, wholly sheathed in copper, which does not make direct impact
with hard structure can go a long way and do a good deal of damage without showing
much effect. . . . The bullet, with its tough protective shield, was never subjected to an
abrupt change of momentum. . . . There were at no time forces exerted upon it
sufficient to deform it to any great extent; merely continuous small forces which
robbed it bit by bit of its energy" (p 92).
White falsely claimed that "CBS News went to some great pains to recreate a part of the path taken by the bullet, using carefully measured blocks of gelatin to simulate the resistance offered by tissue, and other artifacts to represent clothing and bone structure." Was White just not aware that the test did not simulate the neck and the rib bone?
White then claimed that the CBS test proved the SBT was plausible. He wrote that under the circumstances people could not expect "precise results" from the CBS test, and that the "approximate answer" was "entirely consistent, within its margin of error, with the single-bullet theory." Right, so even though the test failed to simulate a human neck and a rib bone, and even though some of the bullets failed to exit the wrist, and even though not one of the bullets lodged in the thigh, the test was "entirely consistent" with the SBT!
In 2003, the Discovery Channel created a similar simulation, with similar results. Once again, a bullet, without being asked to strike any simulated ribs at the exit point of a simulated chest, bounced off a simulated thigh, yet the program declared that it duplicated the SBT.
Pat Speer explains why the failure of these tests is not surprising, noting that world-famous forensic pathologist Dr. Milton Helpern dismissed the SBT as abjectly impossible:
The failure of these tests, moreover, should come as no surprise. In 1967, in the book
Where Death Delights, Dr. Milton Helpern, a man who had supervised 10,000 autopsies
on gunshot victims, explained why these tests were doomed to failure. He said:
“The single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven
layers of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers
of tough, human skin, this bullet passed through other layers of soft tissue, and then
these shattered bones! I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what
Mr. Specter and the Commission have demanded of it."
And it's not as if Helpern was just blowing smoke. In 1987, in a much-discussed letter
to the International Defense Review, Dr. Martin Fackler gave substance to
Dr. Helpern's observations by reporting his conclusion that human skin had the approximate
resistance of four inches of muscle tissue. Yes, that's right. Seven layers of skin have the
resistance of 28 inches of muscle tissue. This suggests, then, that Olivier's tests for CBS
quite possibly under-represented the amount of resistance encountered by the so-called
magic bullet. (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter11thesingle-bullettheory)
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Given: 1) the varying velocities of CE-399 during its wounding of JFK and JBC, 2) the fact that that a bullet like CE-399 has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft, and 3) the fact that it had already passed through both JFK and JBC when it struck the radial bone in JBC's wrist, it's a fool's errand to try to duplicate the deformation that CE-399 sustained.
We can be confident, however, that CE-399 was already tumbling when it wounded JBC because it left an oblong entrance wound in his back.
And we can be confident that CE-399 was still tumbling when it penetrated JBC's wrist because it carried fibers from the margin of JBC's right suit sleeve into the wound, i.e., the round-nosed bullet must have penetrated the wrist backwards and carried said fibers into the wound with its squared-off base.
The damage to Connally's wrist would have been much greater (perhaps even requiring amputation) if it had been hit straight-on by a bullet travelling some 2000 feet-per-second, and the deformation to said bullet would have been significantly different (e.g., the nose would have been smashed).
And oh, yeah, CE-399 does have Oswald's Carcano's marks on it.
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CE 399 does not really “add credibility” to the SBT. CE 399 is “arguably not inconsistent with” the SBT. It would add more credibility to the SBT if it were far more extensively and plausibly damaged and its provenance were certain (e.g., it had been found lodged in Connally’s thigh at Parkland or on his seat in the limo). When we combine the startling condition of CE 399 with its uncertain provenance and the inherent implausibility of the SBT – well, sure, it’s way more of a problem for the LN narrative than a more damaged bullet lodged in JBC's thigh would have been.
I used to fire all sorts of guns at bottles and cans in a riverbed where the bullets lodged in a sand bank behind them. Sometimes we'd dig out the bullets just to see what they looked like. It was often very surprising how badly deformed they were. On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.
The biggest selling point of CE 399, it seems to me, is the connection to Oswald’s rifle. Assuming that CE 399 was indeed fired from Oswald’s rifle, then if the SBT isn’t correct we are quickly in the realm of an elaborate and implausible (to me) conspiracy. If CE 399 were a fake, what sort of Three Stooges conspirators would have produced a fake that looked so implausibly pristine and raised so many questions? How many shots would you have to fire to produce a bullet with that particular damage - 100 or more? And how would you know, before the JFKA or within a few hours thereafter, that you "needed" such a fake? And, unless you were in fact the Three Stooges, why would you ever have allowed a conspiracy scenario where the need for such a fake was even possible?
The SBT has survived 62 years of scrutiny, with enough medical, ballistics and forensics experts concurring with it, that it’s simply silly to say the SBT is "impossible." Yes, other experts have said this and tried to prove it, but to me the SBT, warts and all, stands as "implausible but possible" and probably the most likely explanation. To me, there are and always will be too many unknowns ever to say the SBT is definitely correct or definitely impossible. In the context of all else we know, it's a reasonable explanation.
What I don’t understand is why the debate continues on forums such as this, as though someone were going to say something new or startling at this point. I looked closely at the Knott Laboratory's study, and it seems to me to make assumptions about things that can’t possibly be known with the precision Knott claims. It was commissioned, moreover, by John Orr, who has been on an obsessive anti-SBT crusade for more than 30 years. I wonder how many people know that Orr’s theory, at least in 2013, had Oswald firing both the shot that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat and a separate shot that hit Connally in the back, as well as a third shot that missed; the head shot was (Orr says) a professional on top of what I take to be the Dal-Tex building. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/how-i-investigated-president-john-f-kennedys-assassination. It’s difficult to believe that the paying client being a longtime anti-SBT crusader like Orr had no effect on Knott’s work.
In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott. I found this comment at the Ed Forum by Tom Gram, who is certainly a sane and thorough researcher and who seems to share my concerns about the "precision" perhaps being more illusory than real.
The issue I think is that the limo and human models are just photogrammetry using the Zapruder film; so basically Dale Myers, and a few things don’t look particularly accurate. They have JFK way over on the edge of the car with his arm hanging over, shots at Z210 and Z225 which seems like an odd choice of frames for 2023, etc. etc.
One thing I’m surprised no one has commented on is it looks like they have the back wound positioned below the shoulder line and coming right out of the official exit on JFK’s neck. In that sense their model seems to support the SBT more than refute it.
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In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott.
Have you read the actual Knott study? The full study, not a synopsis of it. If so, where can it be read?
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Have you read the actual Knott study? The full study, not a synopsis of it. If so, where can it be read?
No, I have been puzzled by this myself. I have Googled extensively and have (I think) read everything Knott has put out, but I have not seen the actual study. Pat Speer wrote that he understood there had been a falling out between Orr and Knott. Is it possible Orr owns the rights? It seems very odd that Knott does all this self-promotion but never actually says (as far as I can tell), "You can read the full study HERE."
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Long thread at the Ed Forum that isn't too kind to the Knott/Orr project: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29880-%E2%80%9Cnew-evidence%E2%80%9D-why-the-sbt-is-impossible-so-says-the-video/page/2/
Larry Schnapf said this, which suggests there is no "study," just the dubious animation:
Knott Labs was hired by John Orr to develop photogrammetry for a 3D animation of DP. Orr provided the details and instructions to Knott to do a bare-bones 3D animation that focused on two frames of the Z-film. Stoll-the CEO of KL- knew very little about the assassination and to this day continues to make serious mistakes when discussing the assassination, the project and the implications of the project.
After the initial 3D animation was completed in 2018, John Orr and I formed a limited partnership to fund further work on this project. We subequently parted ways with KL when the person who worked on the project left KL. We have continued to revise the animation and are close to finishing it.
Stoll/KL is promoting an old version of the animation and I would not put much credence in anything Stoll or KL says. -FWIW
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CE 399 does not really “add credibility” to the SBT. CE 399 is “arguably not inconsistent with” the SBT. It would add more credibility to the SBT if it were far more extensively and plausibly damaged and its provenance were certain (e.g., it had been found lodged in Connally’s thigh at Parkland or on his seat in the limo). When we combine the startling condition of CE 399 with its uncertain provenance and the inherent implausibility of the SBT – well, sure, it’s way more of a problem for the LN narrative than a more damaged bullet lodged in JBC's thigh would have been.
I used to fire all sorts of guns at bottles and cans in a riverbed where the bullets lodged in a sand bank behind them. Sometimes we'd dig out the bullets just to see what they looked like. It was often very surprising how badly deformed they were. On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.
The biggest selling point of CE 399, it seems to me, is the connection to Oswald’s rifle. Assuming that CE 399 was indeed fired from Oswald’s rifle, then if the SBT isn’t correct we are quickly in the realm of an elaborate and implausible (to me) conspiracy. If CE 399 were a fake, what sort of Three Stooges conspirators would have produced a fake that looked so implausibly pristine and raised so many questions? How many shots would you have to fire to produce a bullet with that particular damage - 100 or more? And how would you know, before the JFKA or within a few hours thereafter, that you "needed" such a fake? And, unless you were in fact the Three Stooges, why would you ever have allowed a conspiracy scenario where the need for such a fake was even possible?
The SBT has survived 62 years of scrutiny, with enough medical, ballistics and forensics experts concurring with it, that it’s simply silly to say the SBT is "impossible." Yes, other experts have said this and tried to prove it, but to me the SBT, warts and all, stands as "implausible but possible" and probably the most likely explanation. To me, there are and always will be too many unknowns ever to say the SBT is definitely correct or definitely impossible. In the context of all else we know, it's a reasonable explanation.
What I don’t understand is why the debate continues on forums such as this, as though someone were going to say something new or startling at this point. I looked closely at the Knott Laboratory's study, and it seems to me to make assumptions about things that can’t possibly be known with the precision Knott claims. It was commissioned, moreover, by John Orr, who has been on an obsessive anti-SBT crusade for more than 30 years. I wonder how many people know that Orr’s theory, at least in 2013, had Oswald firing both the shot that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat and a separate shot that hit Connally in the back, as well as a third shot that missed; the head shot was (Orr says) a professional on top of what I take to be the Dal-Tex building. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/how-i-investigated-president-john-f-kennedys-assassination. It’s difficult to believe that the paying client being a longtime anti-SBT crusader like Orr had no effect on Knott’s work.
In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott. I found this comment at the Ed Forum by Tom Gram, who is certainly a sane and thorough researcher and who seems to share my concerns about the "precision" perhaps being more illusory than real.
The issue I think is that the limo and human models are just photogrammetry using the Zapruder film; so basically Dale Myers, and a few things don’t look particularly accurate. They have JFK way over on the edge of the car with his arm hanging over, shots at Z210 and Z225 which seems like an odd choice of frames for 2023, etc. etc.
One thing I’m surprised no one has commented on is it looks like they have the back wound positioned below the shoulder line and coming right out of the official exit on JFK’s neck. In that sense their model seems to support the SBT more than refute it.
On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.
If I remember correctly, and we are talking about the same documentary, it was practically 3-feet penetration.
Another thing that might astonish folks is the fact that a very similar rifle that shoots ammo with very similar characteristics and ballistics was one of three favorite rifles of W.D.M. Bell, who killed about 300 African elephants with it. This is one of his books. It can be had (as a kindle version) on Amazon for chump change.
(https://i.vgy.me/EzEb4x.jpg)
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No, I have been puzzled by this myself. I have Googled extensively and have (I think) read everything Knott has put out, but I have not seen the actual study. Pat Speer wrote that he understood there had been a falling out between Orr and Knott. Is it possible Orr owns the rights? It seems very odd that Knott does all this self-promotion but never actually says (as far as I can tell), "You can read the full study HERE."
I doubt that a fully detailed study by them exists. Certainly not one like that of the ITEK film analysis of 1976. In their synopsis, Knott says that Connally would have had to be seated 10" inboard of Kennedy at Z225 for the SBT to work.They tell us that they ruled that out through their photogrammetry process but they don't tell us just how far inboard that they determined that Connally was. We're also not told by them what copy of Zapruder film that they used or what other photos that they used. In their video animation, they have Connally turned just barely to the right, when in reality his torso was rotated between 30 and 37 degrees at Z223. 30 degrees of right rotation moved the point of entry on Connally's back about 3 inches to the left. So, when you use the range given by ITEK(6.4"+/-2.2") plus the right rotation of Connally, the lateral angle of the SBT can be made to work.
Michael Griffith and Royell Storing both claim that the Knott Lab study is the most thorough, sophisticated, and scientific SBT trajectory analysis ever done. Griffith adds that "No previous analysis even comes close to matching the depth and sophistication of the Knott Lab analysis". Yet, when asked to provide particulars of the study they clam up. Neither of them will say if they read a full detailed study by Knott Lab on the SBT.
(https://i.imgur.com/eTjfbnX.png)
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Long thread at the Ed Forum that isn't too kind to the Knott/Orr project: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29880-%E2%80%9Cnew-evidence%E2%80%9D-why-the-sbt-is-impossible-so-says-the-video/page/2/
Larry Schnapf said this, which suggests there is no "study," just the dubious animation:
Knott Labs was hired by John Orr to develop photogrammetry for a 3D animation of DP. Orr provided the details and instructions to Knott to do a bare-bones 3D animation that focused on two frames of the Z-film. Stoll-the CEO of KL- knew very little about the assassination and to this day continues to make serious mistakes when discussing the assassination, the project and the implications of the project.
After the initial 3D animation was completed in 2018, John Orr and I formed a limited partnership to fund further work on this project. We subequently parted ways with KL when the person who worked on the project left KL. We have continued to revise the animation and are close to finishing it.
Stoll/KL is promoting an old version of the animation and I would not put much credence in anything Stoll or KL says. -FWIW
There are some real crazies over there. Varnell might not even be the looniest. I don't understand why Pat Speer feels the need to cater to them. He calls the SBT a hoax. His take on the theory is flawed. In reading his chapter on the SBT, I had a brief moment of doubt on my own stand on it. After measuring the lengths of my own ears, that doubt went away. I now think of Pat as Pat "Small Ears" Speer. ;D
I do like and respect Larry Schnapf.