JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on July 09, 2025, 01:44:17 AM
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Dan Rather's laughable account of what he think he saw in the Zapruder film:
"The films we saw were taken by an amateur photographer who had a particularly good vantage point, just past the building from which the fatal shot was fired. The films show President Kennedy's open black limousine making a left turn off Houston Street onto Elm Street on the fringe of downtown Dallas, the left turn made just below the window at which the assassin was waiting. About 35 yards past the very base of the building, just below the window, President Kennedy could be seen to put his right hand up to the side of his head to either brush back his hair or perhaps rub his eyebrow. President Kennedy was sitting on the same side of the car as the building from which the shot came. Mrs. Kennedy was by his side. In the jump seat in front of him, Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally -- Governor Connally on the same side of the car as the President -- and in the front seat, two Secret Service men. Just as the President put that right hand up to the side of his head, he … you could see him lurch forward, the first shot had hit him. Mrs. Kennedy was looking in another direction and apparently didn't see or sense that first shot or didn't hear it. But Governor Connally, in the seat in front, appeared to have heard it, or at least sensed that something was wrong. The governor's coat was open. He reached back in this fashion, exposing his white shirt front to the assassin’s window, he reached back as if to offer aid or ask the President something. At that moment, a shot clearly hit the Governor in the front, and he fell back in the seat. Mrs. Connally immediately threw herself over him in a protective position. In the next instant, with this time Mrs. Kennedy apparently looking on, a second shot -- the third total shot -- hit the President’s head. He … his head could be seen to move violently forward . . . and Mrs. Kennedy stood up immediately. The President leaned over her way; it appeared that he might have brushed her legs. Mrs. Kennedy then literally went on the top of the trunk of the Lincoln car and put practically her whole body on the trunk -- it appeared she might have been on her all fours, there -- reaching out for the Secret Service man, the lone Secret Service man who was riding on the bumper of the car, the back bumper on Mrs. Kennedy's side. The Secret Service man leaned forward and put his hands on Mrs. Kennedy's shoulder to push her back into the car – she was in some danger, it appeared, of rolling off or falling off. And we described this before -- there was some question about what we meant by Mrs. Kennedy’s being on the trunk of the car. Only she knows, but it appeared that she was trying desperately to get the Secret Service man's attention or perhaps to help pull him into the car. The car never stopped; it never paused. In the front seat, a secret serviceman was on the telephone. The car picked up speed and disappeared beneath an underpass."
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I find it interesting that Rather says, "the FILMS we saw.....". Mmmmmmm
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I find it interesting that Rather says, "the FILMS we saw....."
Didn't you know, Storing?
The evil, evil CIA had Sitzman film the assassination, too!!!
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I find it interesting that Rather says, "the FILMS we saw....."
Nice catch, Storing!
Rather's unbroken chain of mistakes started with the second word he spoke!
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Nice catch, Storing!
Rather's unbroken chain of mistakes started with the second word he spoke!
Rather may be telling the truth of viewing more than 1 film. Who knows? Maybe Rather watched multiple versions of the Zapruder Film?
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Rather may be telling the truth of viewing more than 1 film. Who knows? Maybe Rather watched multiple versions of the Zapruder Film?
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!
A Question for Storing: How far do you think the limo was from the base of the TSBD when JFK was hit by the first bullet that hit him?
"About 35 yards," as Rather says?
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Well, think of that distance this way. On a MLB diamond, the straight line distance from home plate to 2nd base is roughly 40 yards. Now place yourself on the corner of Houston/Elm on the same side of Elm St as the TSBD. Look straight down Elm St. If you are talking about the JFK BACK Shot, I would say 35-40 yards would be accurate.
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Place yourself on the corner of Houston/Elm on the same side of Elm St as the TSBD. Look straight down Elm Street. If you are talking about the JFK back shot, I would say 35-40 yards would be accurate.
He said from the base of the building, not from the tip of the "island" in front of the building.
Regardless, why do so many people say the second shot (the shot that wounded both JFK and JBC around Z-222) travelled about 240 feet (80 yards) from the Sniper's Nest window to JFK's back?
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He said from the base of the building, not from the tip of the "island" in front of the building.
Regardless, why do so many people say the second shot (the shot that wounded both JFK and JBC around Z-222) travelled about 240 feet (80 yards) from the Sniper's Nest window to JFK's back?
The difference is the elevation of the sixth floor window. Plus the sniper’s window is on the east end of the TSBD building. Rather’s description is strictly the distance at ground level and probably from the west end of the TSBD building.
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The difference is the elevation of the sixth floor window. Plus the sniper’s window is on the east end of the TSBD building. Rather’s description is strictly the distance at ground level and probably from the west end of the TSBD building.
Dan Rather was not in Dealey Plaza and his description was from Zapruders position.
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It was a joke how he described it. I'm not going to make a big deal about his use of the word "films." Did he see others, like the Nix film? Who knows? But it's not some sinister slip of the tongue with "films" like some of the crazies out there may make it out to be (e.g. "OMG! There's another film out there that we're still waiting to see showing Dick and Allen behind the wall giving Ruby directions to fire the shots! OMG!")
But I've always believed that, even at this point, with Oswald dead, the official message is starting at this point. Just like Ken O'Donnell saw some stuff, mere feet away from the shots, but was told by the FBI that he was wrong, that that isn't what he saw. And he quietly just didn't talk about it any more.
Good old Dan was young and ambitious, just like a lot of other TV "performers." I call them that because that's what they all are - performers. The newspaper people are the real reporters, though they, too, blew the assassination when they were fed the official line. Only the foreign press knew the truth and said as much.
Anyway, old Dan had just started in NY in '62 on a trial period, so he knew he had a good thing going and wasn't going to rock the boat. Just say what others are saying in the room - "...his head falls forward" etc. etc.
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He said from the base of the building, not from the tip of the "island" in front of the building.
Regardless, why do so many people say the second shot (the shot that wounded both JFK and JBC around Z-222) travelled about 240 feet (80 yards) from the Sniper's Nest window to JFK's back?
Again, put this alleged "80 yards" into a general perspective that you can relate to. Do you think it is almost a football field from the corner of Elm & Houston/The Island down to the Stemmons Sign? Not even close. Gary Mack always made it a point to stress how TINY Dealey Plaza was. He was right. Like I said, if there was nothing in the way, YOU could throw a baseball from the TSBD to the Zapruder Perch. And you wouldn't drop a nut doing it. Always put these alleged distances into a perspective/venue you can relate to. A Football Field or Baseball Diamond is a good venue for me to envision. When it comes to height, an NBA Rim is 10 feet above the floor.
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I find it interesting that Rather says, "the FILMS we saw.....". Mmmmmmm
What's especially interesting is that Rather was not the only one who saw the original film and who said it showed Kennedy being knocked forward, as I discuss in my article "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film."
Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recalled in his book Hoover's FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "pitching suddenly forward" in the film. Obviously, no such motion appears in the extant film.
Special Agent George Hickey, riding in the follow-up car, said the final shot made Kennedy "fall forward and to his left."
William Newman, who was standing on the Elm Street sidewalk right in front of the grassy knoll and who had one of the best views of the shooting, tried to tell New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison that JFK was knocked forward as if struck by a baseball bat, but Garrison would not believe him because the event was not in the film.
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Rather was asked about his, let's be charitable, inaccurate description of what the film showed and said this (this is from Alexandra Zapruder's book on the film):
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12588175020/Key2h0ga63vfa4r/rather defense.JPG)
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What's especially interesting is that Rather was not the only one who saw the original film and who said it showed Kennedy being knocked forward, as I discuss in my article "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film."
Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recalled in his book Hoover's FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "pitching suddenly forward" in the film. Obviously, no such motion appears in the extant film.
Special Agent George Hickey, riding in the follow-up car, said the final shot made Kennedy "fall forward and to his left."
William Newman, who was standing on the Elm Street sidewalk right in front of the grassy knoll and who had one of the best views of the shooting, tried to tell New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison that JFK was knocked forward as if struck by a baseball bat, but Garrison would not believe him because the event was not in the film.
Yeah, they swear by images and then disregard eyewitness testimony that conflicts with those same images. Personally, I am always astounded at the Missing Images that nobody asks about. Where are there any image(s) of SA Lem Johns jumping out of the LBJ SS Car and then running down Elm St. toward the JFK Limo? Where are there any image(s) of DPD Motorcycle Officer Hargis running across Elm St and then running up to "that wall", "little brick wall"? Those images are missing and nobody questions why we have this Gaping Black Hole. Interestingly, Officer Hargis's "little brick wall" is also where Gordon Arnold claimed he got kicked around by the "No Hat Cop". Images of Gordon Arnold are also nowhere to be found.
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Rather was asked about his, let's be charitable, inaccurate description of what the film showed and said this (this is from Alexandra Zapruder's book on the film):
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12588175020/Key2h0ga63vfa4r/rather defense.JPG)
So, I was right -- the poor guy got to see the clip only one time.
No wonder he made so many mistakes -- like saying in so many words, "JBC was clearly shot when he was turned around, reaching towards the President."
At least his syntax, grammar and vocabulary were pretty good.
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Here's his 5:21-long version:
We have just returned from seeing a complete motion picture of the moments immediately preceding, and the moments of, President Kennedy's assassination. The motion picture shows the limousine, carrying in the front seat two Secret Service men, in the middle or jump-seat, Governor and Mrs. John Connally of Texas, and in the rear seat President and Mrs. Kennedy, a single Secret Service man standing on the back bumper. The top of the black Lincoln convertible down. The car made a turn, a left turn, off of Houston Street onto Elm Street on the fringe of Dallas's downtown area, that turn made directly below the 6th floor window from which the assassin's bullets came. After the left turn was completed, the automobile, with only one car in front of it -- a Secret Service car immediately in front -- the President's car proceeded about 35 yards from the base of the building in which the assassin was. President Kennedy and Governor Connally were seated on the same side of the open car, the side facing the building; Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally on the side opposite the assassin. President Kennedy is clearly shown to put his right hand up to the side of his face, as if to either brush back his hair or perhaps rub his eyebrow. Mrs. Kennedy at that instant is looking away, that is not looking at the president. At almost that instant, when the President has his hand up to the side of his face, he lurches forward -- something in this manner. The first shot had hit him. Mrs. Kennedy appeared not to notice. Governor Connally, in the seat right in front of the President -- and by the way, the Governor had his suit coat open –- his suit was not buttoned -- perhaps either heard the shot or somehow he knew that something was wrong because the picture shows just after that first shot hit the President, the Governor turned in something this manner with his right arm outstretched back towards the President as if to say “what's wrong” or “what happened,” or to say something, and exposed the entire white front shirt of the Governor to the full view of the assassin’s window, and as the Governor was in this position and President Kennedy, behind him, was slumped slightly over, a shot clearly hit the front of Governor Connally and the Governor fell back, over towards his wife. Mrs. Connally immediately put herself over her husband in a protective position, and as she did so, in the back seat this time with Mrs. Kennedy's eyes apparently [unintelligible], the second shot -- the third shot in all -- the second shot hit the President's head. His head went forward in a violent motion, pushing it down like this. Mrs. Kennedy was on her feet immediately. The President fell over in this direction. It appeared that his head probably brushed or hit against Mrs. Kennedy's legs. The First Lady almost immediately tried to crawl on, and did crawl onto, the trunk of the car, face-down, her whole body almost was on that trunk in something (sic) that all fours position. She appeared to desperately be trying to get the attention of the Secret Service man on the back bumper, or perhaps she was stretching out toward him to grab him, try to get him in, or perhaps even to get herself out of the car. The car was moving all the time; the car never stopped. The Secret Service man on the back bumper leaned way over and put his hands on Mrs. Kennedy's shoulders. She appeared to be in some danger of falling or rolling off that trunk lid. He pushed her into the back seat of the car. In the front seat a Secret Service man with a phone in his hand. The car speeded it up and sped away. It never stopped; it never paused. That's what the film of the assassination showed. The film was taken by an amateur photographer who had placed himself in an advantageous position. Eight-millimeter color film. This is Dan Rather in Dallas.
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Who claimed that Dan Rather viewed the Z Film more than 1 time before doing his nationwide broadcasts? Nobody did. STOP making stuff up!
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Who claimed that Dan Rather viewed the Z Film more than 1 time before doing his nationwide broadcasts? Nobody did. STOP making stuff up!
Storing,
Why are you so paranoiac?
I didn't say that you or anyone else had claimed that Rather had watched the clip more than once when he made his error-filled broadcasts.
Stop making stuff up!
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So, I was right -- the poor guy got to see the clip only one time.
No wonder he made so many mistakes -- like saying in so many words, "JBC was clearly shot when he was turned around, reaching towards the President."
At least his syntax, grammar and vocabulary were pretty good.
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Here's his 5:21-long version:
We have just returned from seeing a complete motion picture of the moments immediately preceding, and the moments of, President Kennedy's assassination. The motion picture shows the limousine, carrying in the front seat two Secret Service men, in the middle or jump-seat, Governor and Mrs. John Connally of Texas, and in the rear seat President and Mrs. Kennedy, a single Secret Service man standing on the back bumper. The top of the black Lincoln convertible down. The car made a turn, a left turn, off of Houston Street onto Elm Street on the fringe of Dallas's downtown area, that turn made directly below the 6th floor window from which the assassin's bullets came. After the left turn was completed, the automobile, with only one car in front of it -- a Secret Service car immediately in front -- the President's car proceeded about 35 yards from the base of the building in which the assassin was. President Kennedy and Governor Connally were seated on the same side of the open car, the side facing the building; Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally on the side opposite the assassin. President Kennedy is clearly shown to put his right hand up to the side of his face, as if to either brush back his hair or perhaps rub his eyebrow. Mrs. Kennedy at that instant is looking away, that is not looking at the president. At almost that instant, when the President has his hand up to the side of his face, he lurches forward -- something in this manner. The first shot had hit him. Mrs. Kennedy appeared not to notice. Governor Connally, in the seat right in front of the President -- and by the way, the Governor had his suit coat open –- his suit was not buttoned -- perhaps either heard the shot or somehow he knew that something was wrong because the picture shows just after that first shot hit the President, the Governor turned in something this manner with his right arm outstretched back towards the President as if to say “what's wrong” or “what happened,” or to say something, and exposed the entire white front shirt of the Governor to the full view of the assassin’s window, and as the Governor was in this position and President Kennedy, behind him, was slumped slightly over, a shot clearly hit the front of Governor Connally and the Governor fell back, over towards his wife. Mrs. Connally immediately put herself over her husband in a protective position, and as she did so, in the back seat this time with Mrs. Kennedy's eyes apparently [unintelligible], the second shot -- the third shot in all -- the second shot hit the President's head. His head went forward in a violent motion, pushing it down like this. Mrs. Kennedy was on her feet immediately. The President fell over in this direction. It appeared that his head probably brushed or hit against Mrs. Kennedy's legs. The First Lady almost immediately tried to crawl on, and did crawl onto, the trunk of the car, face-down, her whole body almost was on that trunk in something (sic) that all fours position. She appeared to desperately be trying to get the attention of the Secret Service man on the back bumper, or perhaps she was stretching out toward him to grab him, try to get him in, or perhaps even to get herself out of the car. The car was moving all the time; the car never stopped. The Secret Service man on the back bumper leaned way over and put his hands on Mrs. Kennedy's shoulders. She appeared to be in some danger of falling or rolling off that trunk lid. He pushed her into the back seat of the car. In the front seat a Secret Service man with a phone in his hand. The car speeded it up and sped away. It never stopped; it never paused. That's what the film of the assassination showed. The film was taken by an amateur photographer who had placed himself in an advantageous position. Eight-millimeter color film. This is Dan Rather in Dallas.
BUMP regarding possible Rather repeated Z Film viewing.
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BUMP regarding possible Rather repeated Z Film viewing.
Given the high number of gross inaccuracies in his reporting, one would think that he only viewed it once.
Either that, or that oodles and gobs of evil, evil CIA or FBI film alterationists radically changed it to protect the evil, evil "Deep State."
Is that what you believe, Storing?
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In his memoirs (and supported by other accounts of people who were there, e.g., Richard Stolley), Rather explains that he - and the other media representatives who were there - were allowed to see the film *one time* privately before bidding on it. After he saw the film he immediately left before bidding and gave his news report on what he thought he saw. The lawyer mentioned below was Zapruder's lawyer Sam Passman.
Remember that after the assassination Zapruder had the in camera original film developed and then three copies of that made. So there were four films. He gave two *copies* to the government (Forrest Sorrels, the Dallas Secret Service agent) which were then flown to Washington. Zapruder kept the original and one copy. He showed that original to the media on Satur day. This is what Rather and the others saw. At no time was that original in the hands of the government. So there was *no opportunity* for it to be altered before Time/Life purchased it.
Here is Rather:
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12591059904/Keyu3pfgq0hphn6/rather account.jpg)
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Yeah, they swear by images and then disregard eyewitness testimony that conflicts with those same images. Personally, I am always astounded at the Missing Images that nobody asks about. Where are there any image(s) of SA Lem Johns jumping out of the LBJ SS Car and then running down Elm St. toward the JFK Limo? Where are there any image(s) of DPD Motorcycle Officer Hargis running across Elm St and then running up to "that wall", "little brick wall"? Those images are missing and nobody questions why we have this Gaping Black Hole. Interestingly, Officer Hargis's "little brick wall" is also where Gordon Arnold claimed he got kicked around by the "No Hat Cop". Images of Gordon Arnold are also nowhere to be found.
And here's another real kicker of a fact: AP journalist James Altgens, who took the famous Altgens photos, said that the head shot he witnessed knocked JFK forward, that he never saw the violent backward motion seen in the Zapruder film, and that he believed the backward motion was an "optical illusion," as I also discuss in "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film." I quote from my segment on Altgens' telling statements on the subject:
Newsman James Altgens, who was standing near Elm Street to photograph the
motorcade, told CBS in 1967 that when JFK was shot in the head, he was knocked
forward and was dislodged from the seat cushion. Said Altgens,
"And as they got close to me, and I was prepared to make the picture, I had my
camera almost at eye level; that’s when the president was shot in the head. And I
do know the president was still in an upright position, tilted, favoring Mrs.
Kennedy. And at the time that he was struck by this blow to the head, it was so
obvious that it came from behind. It had to come from behind because it caused
him to bolt forward, dislodging him from his impression in the seat cushion. . . .
(David Mantik, JFK’s Head Wounds: A Final Synthesis – And a New Analysis of the
Harper Fragment, Amazon Kindle, 2015, p. 125)
Altgens told JFK scholar and medical researcher Milicent Cranor that he did not see
JFK knocked backward, and that he believed that JFK’s violent backward motion in the
Zapruder film was an “optical illusion” (Mantik, JFK’s Head Wounds, p. 125).
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And here's another real kicker of a fact: AP journalist James Altgens, who took the famous Altgens photos, said that the head shot he witnessed knocked JFK forward, that he never saw the violent backward motion seen in the Zapruder film, and that he believed the backward motion was an "optical illusion," as I also discuss in "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film." I quote from my segment on Altgens' telling statements on the subject:
Newsman James Altgens, who was standing near Elm Street to photograph the
motorcade, told CBS in 1967 that when JFK was shot in the head, he was knocked
forward and was dislodged from the seat cushion. Said Altgens,
"And as they got close to me, and I was prepared to make the picture, I had my
camera almost at eye level; that’s when the president was shot in the head. And I
do know the president was still in an upright position, tilted, favoring Mrs.
Kennedy. And at the time that he was struck by this blow to the head, it was so
obvious that it came from behind. It had to come from behind because it caused
him to bolt forward, dislodging him from his impression in the seat cushion. . . .
(David Mantik, JFK’s Head Wounds: A Final Synthesis – And a New Analysis of the
Harper Fragment, Amazon Kindle, 2015, p. 125)
Altgens told JFK scholar and medical researcher Milicent Cranor that he did not see
JFK knocked backward, and that he believed that JFK’s violent backward motion in the
Zapruder film was an “optical illusion” (Mantik, JFK’s Head Wounds, p. 125).
Griffith,
Do you agree with Storing that the Zapruder film was heavily altered by the evil, evil bad guys?
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Griffith,
Do you agree with Storing that the Zapruder film was heavily altered by the evil, evil bad guys?
I take it you haven't bothered to read my article "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film," which I've mentioned several times now.
LINK: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YOK_7uLe49zgXADGQxkIH1dmaEcpyaWd/view
FYI, former ARRB senior staffer Doug Horne has asked dozens of film industry experts, via Thom Whitehead and Sydney Wilkinson, to examine the Zapruder film, and the vast majority have concluded the film has been edited:
Of approximately 75 film industry professionals who have viewed their high resolution digital scans of the Zapruder film since the year 2008, 72 of them have expressed the opinion that the film has been altered. (https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docNF6F0A5F62C8Dc20c23f9cbefbc02a95ed7616e383faef89c69202d5b0e0448d2de20492d995c)
Over 40 witnesses from all over Dealey Plaza said the limousine stopped or markedly slowed, yet no such action is seen in the Zapruder film. Are you going to argue that these witnesses amazingly experienced a mass hallucination?
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I take it you haven't bothered to read my article "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film," which I've mentioned several times now.
LINK: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YOK_7uLe49zgXADGQxkIH1dmaEcpyaWd/view
FYI, former ARRB senior staffer Doug Horne has asked dozens of film industry experts, via Thom Whitehead and Sydney Wilkinson, to examine the Zapruder film, and the vast majority have concluded the film has been edited:
Over 40 witnesses from all over Dealey Plaza said the limousine stopped or markedly slowed, yet no such action is seen in the Zapruder film. Are you going to argue that these witnesses amazingly experienced a mass hallucination?
“Over 40 witnesses from all over Dealey Plaza said the limousine stopped or markedly slowed, yet no such action is seen in the Zapruder film. Are you going to argue that these witnesses amazingly experienced a mass hallucination?”
What nonsense, completely wrong. It is noticeable not only in the Zapruder film but Nix and Muchmore films. The car noticeably slowing down is the impetus for SA Hill to jump off of the SS car and run to JFK’s limo. Maybe it is time to write a new tripe filled article.
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“Over 40 witnesses from all over Dealey Plaza said the limousine stopped or markedly slowed, yet no such action is seen in the Zapruder film. Are you going to argue that these witnesses amazingly experienced a mass hallucination?”
What nonsense, completely wrong. It is noticeable not only in the Zapruder film but Nix and Muchmore films. The car noticeably slowing down is the impetus for SA Hill to jump off of the SS car and run to JFK’s limo. Maybe it is time to write a new tripe filled article.
You can't be serious. First off, there is no "noticeable" stop or slowdown in the Zapruder film. Even when you watch the film at half speed, there is no discernible slowdown, much less a stop. Second, several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before the head explosion, but Hill did not start to move toward the limousine until after the head explosion. Officer Hargis, for example, said he was hit with blood and brain spray after the limo stopped.
Dr. Luis Alvarez detected a 4-mph slowdown in Z295-304, i.e., in 10 frames/546 milliseconds. Obviously, this event is undiscernible when you view the Zapruder film at normal speed, which is the speed at which witnesses viewed the shooting. In fact, the slowdown happens so quickly that no one noticed it until Alvarez detected it through careful frame-by-frame analysis of the film. This cannot be the stop or marked slowdown described by 40-plus witnesses.
Furthermore, speaking of the Muchmore film, in that film the limousine's brake lights come on for nine frames during the time period corresponding to Z311-319, but this event is not seen in those Zapruder frames, not to mention the fact that several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before JFK's head exploded.
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Even DPD Motorcycle Officer Hargis waffled about whether the JFK Limo came to a Stop or not. I believe he finally settled on a "rolling stop" answer to this question. Anyway you slice it, SA Greer should have immediately Floored the accelerator and zig-zagged the Limo down Elm St. Instead, Greer allegedly does a "rolling stop" and then steers the Limo "straight-assa-string" down Elm St. On top of all of that, SA Greer or anyone else connected to the SS was ever fired.
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You can't be serious. First off, there is no "noticeable" stop or slowdown in the Zapruder film. Even when you watch the film at half speed, there is no discernible slowdown, much less a stop. Second, several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before the head explosion, but Hill did not start to move toward the limousine until after the head explosion. Officer Hargis, for example, said he was hit with blood and brain spray after the limo stopped.
Dr. Luis Alvarez detected a 4-mph slowdown in Z295-304, i.e., in 10 frames/546 milliseconds. Obviously, this event is undiscernible when you view the Zapruder film at normal speed, which is the speed at which witnesses viewed the shooting. In fact, the slowdown happens so quickly that no one noticed it until Alvarez detected it through careful frame-by-frame analysis of the film. This cannot be the stop or marked slowdown described by 40-plus witnesses.
Furthermore, speaking of the Muchmore film, in that film the limousine's brake lights come on for nine frames during the time period corresponding to Z311-319, but this event is not seen in those Zapruder frames, not to mention the fact that several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before JFK's head exploded.
Maybe watch the films again. You do not need to have anyone tell you anything. You do not need to have Louis Alvarez or any of these people tell you what is obvious to the naked eye. You are seeing the assassination the same way it was seen by the eyewitnesses on 11/22/63. It is obvious in the Zapruder, Muchmore, and Nix films that the car slowed during the headshot sequence. All three films show the same reaction.
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"......what is obvious to the naked eye"? Have you ever watched a "Fast & Furious" flick? NOTHING on film is, "obvious to the naked eye".
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You can't be serious. First off, there is no "noticeable" stop or slowdown in the Zapruder film. Even when you watch the film at half speed, there is no discernible slowdown, much less a stop. Second, several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before the head explosion, but Hill did not start to move toward the limousine until after the head explosion. Officer Hargis, for example, said he was hit with blood and brain spray after the limo stopped.
Dr. Luis Alvarez detected a 4-mph slowdown in Z295-304, i.e., in 10 frames/546 milliseconds. Obviously, this event is undiscernible when you view the Zapruder film at normal speed, which is the speed at which witnesses viewed the shooting. In fact, the slowdown happens so quickly that no one noticed it until Alvarez detected it through careful frame-by-frame analysis of the film. This cannot be the stop or marked slowdown described by 40-plus witnesses.
Furthermore, speaking of the Muchmore film, in that film the limousine's brake lights come on for nine frames during the time period corresponding to Z311-319, but this event is not seen in those Zapruder frames, not to mention the fact that several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before JFK's head exploded.
dosens of
Alvarez' deceleration calculations are centered around two different linear regressions. Each is derived from data over dozens of frames, so it is not a particularly accurate representation of what happens right around the deceleration. The ANTDavisonNZ panoramic version of the Zapruder film gives you a much better picture of what happened, and the slowdown shown there is pretty abrupt.
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How can anything be based on a film that flunks the "chain of custody" and was privately locked up for 15 yrs? That is silly.
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How can anything be based on a film that flunks the "chain of custody" and was privately locked up for 15 yrs? That is silly.
Storing,
How many bad guys do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the getting-away, and the all-important (and obviously ongoing!!!) cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
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dosens of
Alvarez' deceleration calculations are centered around two different linear regressions. Each is derived from data over dozens of frames, so it is not a particularly accurate representation of what happens right around the deceleration. The ANTDavisonNZ panoramic version of the Zapruder film gives you a much better picture of what happened, and the slowdown shown there is pretty abrupt.
This version of the Z-Film, created by New Zealander Ant Davison, is the reason I got into the JFK debate. It is a remarkable achievement.
He uses the z-frames to create a backdrop against which we can see the limo move. The limo's deceleration, to almost walking pace just before the head shot, is clear for all to see. The reason it is difficult to detect in the actual Z-film is because the background is mainly green grass so there is no point of reference to visually grasp the deceleration. It is also a relatively tight camera shot, which also makes it difficult to detect with the naked eye.
Davison's version of the Z-film ends this debate. Michael's claim, that the Z-film doesn't show this deceleration, is blown out of the water.
Doubtless he will do what he always does when confronted with irrefutable evidence that blows his arguments away - go quiet for a while before returning with the same baseless claims.
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Davison's version of the Nix film:
An obvious effect of the deceleration is that the flanking motorcycles suddenly catch up with the limo as it rapidly decelerates.
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Alvarez' deceleration calculations are centered around two different linear regressions. Each is derived from data over dozens of frames, so it is not a particularly accurate representation of what happens right around the deceleration. The ANTDavisonNZ panoramic version of the Zapruder film gives you a much better picture of what happened, and the slowdown shown there is pretty abrupt.
The ability/willingness of WC apologists to ignore self-evident reality is amazing.
So now you are saying that Alvarez, an ardent WC defender, somehow missed the slowdown that you claim is visible in the current Zapruder film! He studied the film frame by frame for years before he detected the Z295-304 slowdown, but according to you he somehow "missed" the slowdown that you claim to see. You folks can't even agree on when your alternate slowdown occurs.
Look, nobody but you and some other WC apologists sees any noticeable slowdown in the Zapruder film when viewed at normal speed, which is the speed at which the witnesses would have seen the motorcade. Forty-plus witnesses would not have described your alleged slowdown as a stop or near-stop. Watch the Zapruder film at 0.75 speed and you still won't see a hint, a trace, of a slowdown, much less a stop. We all know it. But you guys can't admit it because you don't want to admit that the Zapruder film has been altered.
And I notice you've said nothing about the conflict between the Muchmore film and the Zapruder film on this point. In the Muchmore film, the limousine's brake lights come on for nine frames during the time period corresponding to Z311-319. However, no such event is seen in those Zapruder frames, not to mention the fact that several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before JFK's head exploded.
Some witnesses specified that the stop/slowdown occurred right after the first shot, while others made it clear that the event occurred before Jackie began to crawl out of the back seat and onto the trunk.
If you put your foot on your brake pedal for half a second, your car is going to very visibly slow down. Officer James Cheney said that several officers told him the limo "stopped completely."
There may have been two stops/marked slowdowns. A number of witnesses said the car came to screeching/dramatic/sudden stop right after the head explosion. Some of them said the limo pulled over to the curb after the head explosion. We don't see any of this in the current Zapruder film either.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16241#relPageId=6
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The ability/willingness of WC apologists to ignore self-evident reality is amazing.
So now you are saying that Alvarez, an ardent WC defender, somehow missed the slowdown that you claim is visible in the current Zapruder film! He studied the film frame by frame for years before he detected the Z295-304 slowdown, but according to you he somehow "missed" the slowdown that you claim to see. You folks can't even agree on when your alternate slowdown occurs.
Look, nobody but you and some other WC apologists sees any noticeable slowdown in the Zapruder film when viewed at normal speed, which is the speed at which the witnesses would have seen the motorcade. Forty-plus witnesses would not have described your alleged slowdown as a stop or near-stop. Watch the Zapruder film at 0.75 speed and you still won't see a hint, a trace, of a slowdown, much less a stop. We all know it. But you guys can't admit it because you don't want to admit that the Zapruder film has been altered.
And I notice you've said nothing about the conflict between the Muchmore film and the Zapruder film on this point. In the Muchmore film, the limousine's brake lights come on for nine frames during the time period corresponding to Z311-319. However, no such event is seen in those Zapruder frames, not to mention the fact that several witnesses said the stop/marked slowdown occurred before JFK's head exploded.
Some witnesses specified that the stop/slowdown occurred right after the first shot, while others made it clear that the event occurred before Jackie began to crawl out of the back seat and onto the trunk.
If you put your foot on your brake pedal for half a second, your car is going to very visibly slow down. Officer James Cheney said that several officers told him the limo "stopped completely."
There may have been two stops/marked slowdowns. A number of witnesses said the car came to screeching/dramatic/sudden stop right after the head explosion. Some of them said the limo pulled over to the curb after the head explosion. We don't see any of this in the current Zapruder film either.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16241#relPageId=6
It is absolutely mind boggling to know that you cannot watch a film and tell if the car in the film has slowed down. That it takes some supposed expert to explain it to you for you to realize it.
I bet it is a hoot and a half to actually ride in a car you are driving if the only way you know if the traffic around you is slowing down is if one of the passengers tells you the other cars are slowing down.
The fact you choose this subject to make some bizarre point about maybe the Zapruder film is altered when the Nix and Muchmore Film show the exact same sequence of events is unbelievable. Did they alter all three films?
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Davison synched the Zapruder and Nix films, demonstrating that there couldn't have been alteration of one without altering the other.
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Any time I am looking at Main Player JFK Assassination Film(s), if I am NOT Seeing between the sprocket holes, the film gets an immediate DQ. We do Not even have the Original Nix Film, know where it is, where it might be, anything. And now we got some guy that wants to "sync up" an alleged COPY of the Nix Film with a "Copy" of the Current Zapruder Film that in no way matches the Zapruder Film that Dan Rather watched/described the very weekend of the assassination? Seriously?
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It is absolutely mind boggling to know that you cannot watch a film and tell if the car in the film has slowed down. That it takes some supposed expert to explain it to you for you to realize it.
I bet it is a hoot and a half to actually ride in a car you are driving if the only way you know if the traffic around you is slowing down is if one of the passengers tells you the other cars are slowing down.
The fact you choose this subject to make some bizarre point about maybe the Zapruder film is altered when the Nix and Muchmore Film show the exact same sequence of events is unbelievable. Did they alter all three films?
It again seems that you simply do not really read replies before you reply to them.
What is mind boggling is the claim that a marked slowdown/near stop is observable in the current Zapruder film played at normal speed. You pretend to be stunned by my point that no such event is discernible in the current film, but you ignore the fact that the only slowdown that Dr. Luis Alvarez could find in the film is the Z295-304 slowdown, which he only detected via frame-by-frame analysis and measurement. And surely you know Alvarez was a devout WC defender.
I dare you to conduct a simple test of getting 10 ordinary people who are not JFK researchers, asking them to view the Zapruder film, and asking them if they see the limo slow down before Jackie starts to get on the trunk. I'd bet you my IRAs that not one of them would say they saw any slowdown before that point.
As I document in "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film," the Nix and Muchmore films do not show "the exact same sequence of events" as the Zapruder film. Again, the Muchmore film shows the limo's brake lights on for half a second at a time when the Zapruder shows nothing resembling the obvious slowdown that would occur from pressing the brake pedal for 9 frames. The Muchmore film also shows Brehm's son moving at a different speed than the Zapruder film shows him moving.
And the Nix film shows Agent Hill and Jackie in clearly different locations in relation to each other than does the Zapruder film, and no lame appeal to camera angles and distances can make explain that contradiction. The angles and locations would have had to be far more different to even hope to create such an "optical illusion," when in fact, as I've noted before, we see most of the same parts of the limo in the one film that we see in the other--this would not be the case if the cameras had been at drastically different angles and in markedly different positions in relation to the limo.
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It again seems that you simply do not really read replies before you reply to them.
What is mind boggling is the claim that a marked slowdown/near stop is observable in the current Zapruder film played at normal speed. You pretend to be stunned by my point that no such event is discernible in the current film, but you ignore the fact that the only slowdown that Dr. Luis Alvarez could find in the film is the Z295-304 slowdown, which he only detected via frame-by-frame analysis and measurement. And surely you know Alvarez was a devout WC defender.
I dare you to conduct a simple test of getting 10 ordinary people who are not JFK researchers, asking them to view the Zapruder film, and asking them if they see the limo slow down before Jackie starts to get on the trunk. I'd bet you my IRAs that not one of them would say they saw any slowdown before that point.
As I document in "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film," the Nix and Muchmore films do not show "the exact same sequence of events" as the Zapruder film. Again, the Muchmore film shows the limo's brake lights on for half a second at a time when the Zapruder shows nothing resembling the obvious slowdown that would occur from pressing the brake pedal for 9 frames. The Muchmore film also shows Brehm's son moving at a different speed than the Zapruder film shows him moving.
And the Nix film shows Agent Hill and Jackie in clearly different locations in relation to each other than does the Zapruder film, and no lame appeal to camera angles and distances can make explain that contradiction. The angles and locations would have had to be far more different to even hope to create such an "optical illusion," when in fact, as I've noted before, we see most of the same parts of the limo in the one film that we see in the other--this would not be the case if the cameras had been at drastically different angles and in markedly different positions in relation to the limo.
Griffith,
IIRC, you're on record saying you think (sic) 20 - 30 bad guys, altogether, participated in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the getting-away, and the all-important (and ongoing!!!) cover up.
How many of those bad guys do you think (sic) were involved in the altering of the Zapruder film?
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It again seems that you simply do not really read replies before you reply to them.
What is mind boggling is the claim that a marked slowdown/near stop is observable in the current Zapruder film played at normal speed. You pretend to be stunned by my point that no such event is discernible in the current film, but you ignore the fact that the only slowdown that Dr. Luis Alvarez could find in the film is the Z295-304 slowdown, which he only detected via frame-by-frame analysis and measurement. And surely you know Alvarez was a devout WC defender.
I dare you to conduct a simple test of getting 10 ordinary people who are not JFK researchers, asking them to view the Zapruder film, and asking them if they see the limo slow down before Jackie starts to get on the trunk. I'd bet you my IRAs that not one of them would say they saw any slowdown before that point.
As I document in "Evidence of Alteration in the Zapruder Film," the Nix and Muchmore films do not show "the exact same sequence of events" as the Zapruder film. Again, the Muchmore film shows the limo's brake lights on for half a second at a time when the Zapruder shows nothing resembling the obvious slowdown that would occur from pressing the brake pedal for 9 frames. The Muchmore film also shows Brehm's son moving at a different speed than the Zapruder film shows him moving.
And the Nix film shows Agent Hill and Jackie in clearly different locations in relation to each other than does the Zapruder film, and no lame appeal to camera angles and distances can make explain that contradiction. The angles and locations would have had to be far more different to even hope to create such an "optical illusion," when in fact, as I've noted before, we see most of the same parts of the limo in the one film that we see in the other--this would not be the case if the cameras had been at drastically different angles and in markedly different positions in relation to the limo.
MG-- “Over 40 witnesses from all over Dealey Plaza said the limousine stopped or markedly slowed, yet no such action is seen in the Zapruder film. Are you going to argue that these witnesses amazingly experienced a mass hallucination?”
No, their statements confirm what is readily seen in the Zapruder, Nix, and Muchmore films.
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MG-- "I dare you to conduct a simple test of getting 10 ordinary people who are not JFK researchers, asking them to view the Zapruder film, and asking them if they see the limo slow down before Jackie starts to get on the trunk. I'd bet you my IRAs that not one of them would say they saw any slowdown before that point."
They would all see the car slow down. The motorcycle cops did not have a problem figuring it out.
Did they forget to edit and alter the part where the motorcycle cop pulls up even with the hand hold on the back of the Limo while the Limo slows down? It is exactly the same in the Zapruder film, the Nix film, and the Muchmore film. It does not matter if you can’t understand the logic with camera angles, it is a reality anyway.
Only you care what Luis Alvarez was doing. The motorcycles start to gain on the limo at Z309 at the same time that Clint Hill leaves the SS Car.
As the Limo slows down the motorcycle reaches its farthest point alongside of the limo at Z337. At this same point is when Clint Hill first reaches the handhold. After this occurs, the car accelerates.
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Possibly seeing brake lights in one film--Seriously? That is your sole issue?
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It is definitely worth noting exactly where DPD Motorcycle Officer Hargis STOPPED his motorcycle. Why? Because he then allegedly ran across Elm St and BACK toward the light pole. This course of action does Not line up with the actions of an officer Under Fire. And then there is the Issue of there being absolutely NO IMAGES of Officer Hargis being at the "little wall", "brick wall". Not a single image. Or a single image of SA Lem Johns running down Elm St toward the JFK Limo. ALL of these Missing Images have the common thread of allegedly happening in the LIMO STOP area.
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It is definitely worth noting exactly where DPD Motorcycle Officer Hargis STOPPED his motorcycle. Why? Because he then allegedly ran across Elm St and BACK toward the light pole. This course of action does Not line up with the actions of an officer Under Fire. And then there is the Issue of there being absolutely NO IMAGES of Officer Hargis being at the "little wall", "brick wall". Not a single image. Or a single image of SA Lem Johns running down Elm St toward the JFK Limo. ALL of these Missing Images have the common thread of allegedly happening in the LIMO STOP area.
This is definitely not worth noting and absolutely does not mean anything.
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Have you ever watched, "The Naked Gun" (1988)? Does, "Move along, nothing to see here", ring a bell? There's an Image Black Hole extending (E) from the N-S Picket Fence to about 1/2 way across the Knoll. And do Not forget that the Wiegman Film was pushed for decades as being filmed "continuously". That is until it was proven that the period of time that Wiegman ran Down the Knoll was Not filmed by him. Or was it?
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Again, the Muchmore film shows the limo's brake lights on for half a second at a time when the Zapruder shows nothing resembling the obvious slowdown that would occur from pressing the brake pedal for 9 frames.
Griffith, are you going to get anything right? Look at this Zapruder frame very closely, the left rear taillight is glowing but the right hand side is not? The simple reason is that the taillight assembly has a red wraparound lens and from Zapruder's position the ambient light shines through the red lens.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YS72dmnZ/limo-brake-light-not-on-Zapruder.jpg)
Likewise, a similar effect can be seen from Muchmore's position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjhxmdB5/limo-brake-light-not-on-muchmore.jpg)
JohnM