JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on June 26, 2025, 10:41:12 PM

Title: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 26, 2025, 10:41:12 PM
IMO
The CTer alternative to Oswald taking the shots always seems to involve professional hitman/snipers or even teams of them at various points in and around Dealey Plaza. Apparently the plan being to have people firing from all different angles while trying to make it look like there is only one guy firing three shots from a specific location.
Imagine the planning meeting for that!
Surely someone would've pointed out the impossibility of this plan or the stupidity of it.
These guys are professionals after all, highly trained and organised...

Q: ...and how many people should we expect in Dealey Plaza?

A: I'm not sure, it could be hundreds, it could even be thousands. People could be swarming all over the Grassy Knoll and behind the picket fence. We have no way of knowing but we're going to assume the crowds have disappeared by this point.

Q: What's a grassy Noel?

The target is JFK's head.
A professional hit would involve a single shot to the head.
Of the three clearly audible shots reported by over 160 witnesses, only one hits the target. If there are more shots than three, these also miss the target making the whole escapade even more sloppy.
I've never been, but anyone I've ever heard talk about Dealey Plaza are amazed at how small it is, how small the distances are.
For a professional, a head shot in these circumstances is easy.
For an amateur it involves missing the limo and all it's occupants completely, hitting JFK but not in the right place and, eventually a head shot (but not necessarily in that order).
The speed of the three shots implies panic, not a cool head.
And the most important fact is this - JFK is shot through the throat and there is, at the very least, a 5 second gap between this non-fatal shot happening and the fatal head shot. In this 5 second gap anything could happen: the limo speeds off or starts evasive swerving manoeuvres, one of the Secret Service agents actually does his job and makes it to JFK and covers him or JFK slumps all the way over to his left, puts his head in Jackie's lap and is impossible to hit, or any other number of scenarios where the head shot cannot be made.
The point is this - there is a truly massive slice of luck involved in the assassination of JFK.
Professionals would not find themselves in a situation that involved this amount of luck.
The assassination is perpetrated by a non-professional.
IMO

Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 26, 2025, 11:16:08 PM
[...]

The anomaly-replete* assassination of JFK was committed by a psychologically disturbed former Marine sniper and U-2 radar operator by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

*Oswald's missing everything with his first, steeply-downward-angled shot, JFK's reacting more quickly than JBC to being hit by CE-399 because his spinal column was nicked, JFK's being obscurred by the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Zapruder film, Zapruder's pausing his filming for about 17 seconds before resuming at Z-133, Oswald's being able to avoid being seen or heard on his way down to the second-floor lunchroom, Viki Adam's not remembering how long she and Sandra Styles hung out at the window on the 4th floor and then spoke with their supervisor before heading down the stairs, Buell Wesley Frazier's inability (or unwillingness) to correctly remember the length of the paper bag that contained Oswald's disassembled Carcano, JBC's being influenced by his wife to believe that he and JFK were hit by different shots, etc., etc., etc.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 01:00:07 AM

  Well, let's see. I have Proven that those 2 Huge Gates were "Wide Open" per Officer Luke Mooney's WC Testimony, the Towner Film, and the Couch Film (reverse negative). Those Huge Gates were "Wide Open" before, during, and after the Kill Shot. This clearly proves MORE than 1 person was involved in the JFK Assassination. Somebody, (Oswald) had to open those gates, and then someone had to monitor the gates so they were Not closed before being used to exit the TSBD. Those wide open huge gates prove a Conspiracy all by themselves.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 01:10:10 AM
Well, let's see. I have Proven that those 2 Huge Gates were "Wide Open" per Officer Luke Mooney's WC Testimony, the Towner Film, and the Couch Film (reverse negative). Those Huge Gates were "Wide Open" before, during, and after the Kill Shot. This clearly proves MORE than 1 person was involved in the JFK Assassination. Somebody, (Oswald) had to open those gates, and then someone had to monitor the gates so they were Not closed before being used to exit the TSBD. Those wide-open huge gates prove a Conspiracy all by themselves.

Storing,

Why do YOU write Like THIS?

Regardless, even if those HUGE gates were "Wide Open" before, during and after "the kill shot" (which, at Z-313, followed the CE-399 shot at around Z-222-224 and Oswald's missing-everything shot at hypothetical "Z-124"), the "fact" that they were "wide open" at that time doesn't necessarily mean it had anything to do with the assassination.

LOL!
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 01:50:23 AM

  You do Not know anything about the Huge Gates. Only what I have discovered. Those gates had an intercom/buzzer to raise someone to permit entrance. It was secure. This is why I frequently blame the Old Guard JFK Assassination Research Community for this murder being unsolved after 61+ years. These people were/are more concerned with selling books than solving the case. You're Welcome!
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 02:03:26 AM
You do Not know anything about the Huge Gates. Only what I have discovered. Those gates had an intercom/buzzer to raise someone to permit entrance. It was secure. This is why I frequently blame the Old Guard JFK Assassination Research Community for this murder being unsolved after 61+ years. These people were/are more concerned with selling books than solving the case. You're Welcome!

Storing,

Why oh WHY do YOU write Like THIS?

Regardless, you wrote, "Those gates had an intercom/buzzer to raise someone to permit entrance."

What do you mean by "raise someone"?

To contact someone / communicate with someone, or to lift them off the ground?

Question: What was that entrance used for on a daily basis? Only for letting evil, evil, evil CIA assassins into or out of the building?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 02:11:12 AM

 Like I said, YOU do not know anything about the Huge Gates. I have spent some serious time researching this overlooked Entrance/Exit from the TSBD. Instead of thanking me, you choose to rag me. A few months ago, I proved that is Not DPD Motorcycle Officer Haygood on the Darnell Film back inside the Rail Road Yard. Now, I have discovered the Huge Gates being an Exit Ave. from the TSBD. Currently, I am currently researching yet another JFK Assassination ground breaking discovery.   ................STAY TUNED  ........................
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 02:18:04 AM
A few months ago, I proved that is Not DPD Motorcycle Officer Haygood on the Darnell Film back inside the Rail Road Yard.

Storing,

How did you prove it wasn't Haygood?

If it wasn't Haygood, who was it?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 02:24:40 AM

  You insult me and then ask for help? If a child of mine acted like this, he/she would be sent to their room. I do Not want to insult you, but realize that you are operating from a position of ignorance. We all start from Square 1 with respect to the JFK Assassination. With your attitude, you're going to remain there.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 02:43:08 AM
[...]

Insult you?

All I did was ask you 1) if the HUGE gates were opened on a daily basis, or only to let evil, evil, evil CIA assassins get into or out of the building, and 2) how you know it wasn't Officer Haygood in the parking lot in Darnell.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Jarrett Smith on June 27, 2025, 06:18:46 AM
IMO
The CTer alternative to Oswald taking the shots always seems to involve professional hitman/snipers or even teams of them at various points in and around Dealey Plaza. Apparently the plan being to have people firing from all different angles while trying to make it look like there is only one guy firing three shots from a specific location.
Imagine the planning meeting for that!
Surely someone would've pointed out the impossibility of this plan or the stupidity of it.
These guys are professionals after all, highly trained and organised...

Q: ...and how many people should we expect in Dealey Plaza?

A: I'm not sure, it could be hundreds, it could even be thousands. People could be swarming all over the Grassy Knoll and behind the picket fence. We have no way of knowing but we're going to assume the crowds have disappeared by this point.

Q: What's a grassy Noel?

The target is JFK's head.
A professional hit would involve a single shot to the head.
Of the three clearly audible shots reported by over 160 witnesses, only one hits the target. If there are more shots than three, these also miss the target making the whole escapade even more sloppy.
I've never been, but anyone I've ever heard talk about Dealey Plaza are amazed at how small it is, how small the distances are.
For a professional, a head shot in these circumstances is easy.
For an amateur it involves missing the limo and all it's occupants completely, hitting JFK but not in the right place and, eventually a head shot (but not necessarily in that order).
The speed of the three shots implies panic, not a cool head.
And the most important fact is this - JFK is shot through the throat and there is, at the very least, a 5 second gap between this non-fatal shot happening and the fatal head shot. In this 5 second gap anything could happen: the limo speeds off or starts evasive swerving manoeuvres, one of the Secret Service agents actually does his job and makes it to JFK and covers him or JFK slumps all the way over to his left, puts his head in Jackie's lap and is impossible to hit, or any other number of scenarios where the head shot cannot be made.
The point is this - there is a truly massive slice of luck involved in the assassination of JFK.
Professionals would not find themselves in a situation that involved this amount of luck.
The assassination is perpetrated by a non-professional.
IMO

Maybe not professional, but they got the job done with four shots, and yes luck was on their side.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 06:37:29 AM
Maybe not professional, but they got the job done with four shots, and yes luck was on their side.

Dear Jarett,

How many bad guys and bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the getting-away, and the all-important, (and very, very clearly ONGOING!!!) cover up?

Just a few, or oodles and gobs?

-- Tom
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Jarrett Smith on June 27, 2025, 06:49:40 AM
Dear Jarett,

How many bad guys and bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the getting-away, and the all-important, (and very, very clearly ONGOING!!!) cover up?

Just a few, or oodles and gobs?

-- Tom

The only cover up was the SS and FBI for not doing their job. The mafia had him killed and then silenced Oswald.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 06:56:38 AM
The only cover up was the SS and FBI for not doing their job. The mafia had him killed and then silenced Oswald.

Why do you have a psychological need to believe the assassination was a conspiracy?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Richard Smith on June 27, 2025, 01:58:21 PM
IMO
The CTer alternative to Oswald taking the shots always seems to involve professional hitman/snipers or even teams of them at various points in and around Dealey Plaza. Apparently the plan being to have people firing from all different angles while trying to make it look like there is only one guy firing three shots from a specific location.
Imagine the planning meeting for that!
Surely someone would've pointed out the impossibility of this plan or the stupidity of it.
These guys are professionals after all, highly trained and organised...

Q: ...and how many people should we expect in Dealey Plaza?

A: I'm not sure, it could be hundreds, it could even be thousands. People could be swarming all over the Grassy Knoll and behind the picket fence. We have no way of knowing but we're going to assume the crowds have disappeared by this point.

Q: What's a grassy Noel?

The target is JFK's head.
A professional hit would involve a single shot to the head.
Of the three clearly audible shots reported by over 160 witnesses, only one hits the target. If there are more shots than three, these also miss the target making the whole escapade even more sloppy.
I've never been, but anyone I've ever heard talk about Dealey Plaza are amazed at how small it is, how small the distances are.
For a professional, a head shot in these circumstances is easy.
For an amateur it involves missing the limo and all it's occupants completely, hitting JFK but not in the right place and, eventually a head shot (but not necessarily in that order).
The speed of the three shots implies panic, not a cool head.
And the most important fact is this - JFK is shot through the throat and there is, at the very least, a 5 second gap between this non-fatal shot happening and the fatal head shot. In this 5 second gap anything could happen: the limo speeds off or starts evasive swerving manoeuvres, one of the Secret Service agents actually does his job and makes it to JFK and covers him or JFK slumps all the way over to his left, puts his head in Jackie's lap and is impossible to hit, or any other number of scenarios where the head shot cannot be made.
The point is this - there is a truly massive slice of luck involved in the assassination of JFK.
Professionals would not find themselves in a situation that involved this amount of luck.
The assassination is perpetrated by a non-professional.
IMO

One interesting thing about the Grassy Knoll is that it is usually depicted from the Elm St. perspective where it appears to offer a secluded shooting location.  In fact, on the backside of the fence/treeline it is wide open to half of Dallas.  It is the very last place that anyone would put themselves with a rifle. 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Charles Collins on June 27, 2025, 03:40:29 PM
While I tend to agree with the main point of the first post, I think that often times we can create conditions where “luck” becomes more likely to happen. The limited time that the assassin apparently had to plan his ambush made things more difficult. Especially for him to “cover his tracks.” However, consider the items he managed to get accomplished in order to be able to get three shots off before anyone could stop him.

1.  He managed to retrieve the rifle and sneak it into the TSBD without any apparent suspicions being voiced before the assassination. This is even though he didn’t drive and had to hitch a ride from BWF.

2.  He planned his ambush to be from behind and above the target. This gave him not only the element of surprise, but also maximized the time he would have to fire multiple shots.

3.  He managed to find and select a position that was visually well shielded from both outside and inside the TSBD. While sitting on the box seat, he was also able to stay out of sight of the SS agents as they approached the TSBD on Houston Street by simply sitting up straight. The boxes in the window would have made it more difficult for any of the SS agents to see him even if they had looked back at that window during the shooting. And keeping his position essentially initially undetected by LEOs he was able to then have a reasonable chance to escape after the assassination.

4.  This position was also well selected for having a “kill zone” where the target was moving almost directly away from him. This substantially increased his chances of hitting the target.

5. His ability to act calm and blend in with other people after the assassination helped his escape efforts (for a while). This was lost after the Tippit murder and all the frantic police activity in the area and subsequently led to his capture.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 04:07:10 PM
One interesting thing about the Grassy Knoll is that it is usually depicted from the Elm St. perspective where it appears to offer a secluded shooting location.  In fact, on the backside of the fence/treeline it is wide open to half of Dallas.  It is the very last place that anyone would put themselves with a rifle.

   Per Skinny Holland, that parking lot on the other side of the Picket Fence was jam packed with cars. Holland claimed that he and his railroad workers crew that ran from their position atop the Triple Underpass to that parking lot, had to climb over cars to move across the parking lot. A shooter hugging that picket fence would be tough to spot within that ocean of autos. This obstructed view also casts doubt on the Ed Hoffman account of seeing a shooter inside that same parking lot. And Hoffman was standing roughly 2 football fields away.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 04:11:08 PM
While I tend to agree with the main point of the first post, I think that often times we can create conditions where “luck” becomes more likely to happen. The limited time that the assassin apparently had to plan his ambush made things more difficult. Especially for him to “cover his tracks.” However, consider the items he managed to get accomplished in order to be able to get three shots off before anyone could stop him.

1.  He managed to retrieve the rifle and sneak it into the TSBD without any apparent suspicions being voiced before the assassination. This is even though he didn’t drive and had to hitch a ride from BWF.

2.  He planned his ambush to be from behind and above the target. This gave him not only the element of surprise, but also maximized the time he would have to fire multiple shots.

3.  He managed to find and select a position that was visually well shielded from both outside and inside the TSBD. While sitting on the box seat, he was also able to stay out of sight of the SS agents as they approached the TSBD on Houston Street by simply sitting up straight. The boxes in the window would have made it more difficult for any of the SS agents to see him even if they had looked back at that window during the shooting. And keeping his position essentially initially undetected by LEOs he was able to then have a reasonable chance to escape after the assassination.

4.  This position was also well selected for having a “kill zone” where the target was moving almost directly away from him. This substantially increased his chances of hitting the target.

5. His ability to act calm and blend in with other people after the assassination helped his escape efforts (for a while). This was lost after the Tippit murder and all the frantic police activity in the area and subsequently led to his capture.

   There was at least 1 previously planned attempt to kill JFK via the use of a tall building. That attempt was kibosh'd. Point being, the "plan" inside Dealey Plaza did not necessarily start from scratch.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Richard Smith on June 27, 2025, 04:30:28 PM
   Per Skinny Holland, that parking lot on the other side of the Picket Fence was jam packed with cars. Holland claimed that he and his railroad workers crew that ran from their position atop the Triple Underpass to that parking lot, had to climb over cars to move across the parking lot. A shooter hugging that picket fence would be tough to spot within that ocean of autos. This obstructed view also casts doubt on the Ed Hoffman account of seeing a shooter inside that same parking lot. And Hoffman was standing roughly 2 football fields away.

There is no way that someone is going to stand out in the wide open with a rifle in that location.  And it doesn't make any sense to frame Oswald as the shooter from behind JFK but to place another shooter to his right and front on the Grassy Knoll.  If someone else were going to do this and Oswald was the patsy, then they fire the shot from the location that they were going to frame Oswald and use his rifle.  Another shooter at a different location using a different rifle is laughable as a plan. 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 04:53:22 PM
There is no way that someone is going to stand out in the wide open with a rifle in that location.  And it doesn't make any sense to frame Oswald as the shooter from behind JFK but to place another shooter to his right and front on the Grassy Knoll.  If someone else were going to do this and Oswald was the patsy, then they fire the shot from the location that they were going to frame Oswald and use his rifle.  Another shooter at a different location using a different rifle is laughable as a plan.

   You say, "..stand out in the wide open". As described by Holland, that is not how the parking lot at the top of the grassy knoll looked at roughly 12:30pm 11/22/63. The Ed Hoffman visual presentation of that "wide open/empty" parking lot on, "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", is not accurate per Holland. Mark Lane filmed a Holland walk-through which detailed his journey from atop the Triple Underpass to/through the parking lot. During this walk-through, Holland describes the 11/22/63 jam packed parking lot. This Lane/Holland walk-through is posted on You Tube. 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Jarrett Smith on June 27, 2025, 08:47:09 PM
Why do you have a psychological need to believe the assassination was a conspiracy?

Because Oswald only fired three times, and there was a fourth shot from the front. Many of the witnesses heard the first at Z-224 and bang-bang at the time of the head shot. For this scenario to work no shot was fired at Z-160, but we have visual proof there was.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 09:41:28 PM
Because Oswald only fired three times, and there was a fourth shot from the front. Many of the witnesses heard the first at Z-224 and bang-bang at the time of the head shot. For this scenario to work no shot was fired at Z-160, but we have visual proof there was.

Where did this "fourth shot" come from?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 27, 2025, 10:00:21 PM
     61+ yrs later NOBODY has placed Oswald in that sniper's window or even on the TSBD 6th Floor at 12:30 PM. And now that I have proven the Huge Gates attached to the TSBD were "wide open", (Officer Luke Mooney WC Testimony), a possible shooter + spotter could have easily entered and exited the TSBD. Those "wide open" Huge Gates would mandate having a man on them to prevent their possibly being closed for whatever reason while the shooter + spotter were inside the TSBD. So we got a possible 2 men inside the sniper's nest + 1 man on the Huge Gates, + an Inside Man responsible for setting up the sniper's nest and opening the Huge Gates. Minimum 4 guys total. The JFK Assassination was Not "sloppy and amateurish". It was very well planned.   
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 27, 2025, 10:03:13 PM
61+ yrs later NOBODY has placed Oswald in that sniper's window or even on the TSBD 6th Floor at 12:30 PM. And now that I have proven the Huge Gates attached to the TSBD were "wide open", (Officer Luke Mooney WC Testimony), a possible shooter + spotter could have easily entered and exited the TSBD. Those "wide open" Huge Gates would mandate having a man on them to prevent their possibly being closed for whatever reason while the shooter + spotter were inside the TSBD. So we got a possible 2 men inside the sniper's nest + 1 man on the Huge Gates, + an Inside Man responsible for setting up the sniper's nest and opening the Huge Gates. Minimum 4 guys total. The JFK Assassination was Not "sloppy and amateurish". It was very well planned.   

Storing,

You haven't proved Jack you-know-what except for how zombified-by-KGB* disinformation you are.

*Today's SVR and FSB
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 28, 2025, 10:30:36 AM
The anomaly-replete* assassination of JFK was committed by a psychologically disturbed former Marine sniper and U-2 radar operator by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

This is a strong theory and has a lot going for it

Quote
*Oswald's missing everything with his first, steeply-downward-angled shot, JFK's reacting more quickly than JBC to being hit by CE-399 because his spinal column was nicked, JFK's being obscurred by the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Zapruder film, Zapruder's pausing his filming for about 17 seconds before resuming at Z-133, Oswald's being able to avoid being seen or heard on his way down to the second-floor lunchroom, Viki Adam's not remembering how long she and Sandra Styles hung out at the window on the 4th floor and then spoke with their supervisor before heading down the stairs, Buell Wesley Frazier's inability (or unwillingness) to correctly remember the length of the paper bag that contained Oswald's disassembled Carcano, JBC's being influenced by his wife to believe that he and JFK were hit by different shots, etc., etc., etc.

"*Oswald's missing everything with his first, steeply-downward-angled shot,"

Nonsense.
"steeply-downward-angled shot"  :D

"JFK's reacting more quickly than JBC to being hit"

Nonsense.

"hit by CE-399"

Nonsense.

" Viki Adam's not remembering how long she and Sandra Styles hung out at the window on the 4th floor"

Nonsense.

"and then spoke with their supervisor before heading down the stairs,"

Citation please.

"JBC's being influenced by his wife to believe that he and JFK were hit by different shots,"

Nonsense.

You clearly know nothing about the assassination.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 28, 2025, 10:36:26 AM
  Well, let's see. I have Proven that those 2 Huge Gates were "Wide Open" per Officer Luke Mooney's WC Testimony, the Towner Film, and the Couch Film (reverse negative). Those Huge Gates were "Wide Open" before, during, and after the Kill Shot. This clearly proves MORE than 1 person was involved in the JFK Assassination. Somebody, (Oswald) had to open those gates, and then someone had to monitor the gates so they were Not closed before being used to exit the TSBD. Those wide open huge gates prove a Conspiracy all by themselves.

Hate to burst your bubble, Royell, but I dealt with the "Huge Gates" years ago and in much more detail than you have.
It's in this thread - https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3078.msg119172.html#msg119172
It starts at Reply#559, read on from there.

All it proves is that the building was not locked down properly. That's all.
It does NOT prove that more than one person was involved in the assassination.
These gates were not closed for at least ten minutes. More importantly, the door to the west of the TSBD building wasn't secured at any point during the day. People could come and go as they pleased through this entrance.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 28, 2025, 10:41:25 AM
Maybe not professional, but they got the job done with four shots, and yes luck was on their side.

So, you agree the assassination was not professional. That's the point I was making.
It was not carried out by someone hired/contracted for their specific skill as a marksman.
It would appear to be carried out by someone familiar with rifles but not particularly skilled.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 28, 2025, 11:01:14 AM
One interesting thing about the Grassy Knoll is that it is usually depicted from the Elm St. perspective where it appears to offer a secluded shooting location.  In fact, on the backside of the fence/treeline it is wide open to half of Dallas.  It is the very last place that anyone would put themselves with a rifle.

Agreed.
Because there was hardly anyone in this area during the actual shooting a lot of 'researchers' fail to grasp that no-one knew prior to the shooting that this would be the case.
They never consider the actual planning stage of their pet theory.
The area around the GK could have been swarming with hundreds of people. The car park was completely wide open, as we can see below.
Nobody, in their right mind, would plan to take a shot from behind the picket fence as they would have absolutely no idea as to how many people would be in this area on the day. It's a ludicrous notion.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwJsqgKC/TSBDarialbehind.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 28, 2025, 11:22:01 AM
While I tend to agree with the main point of the first post, I think that often times we can create conditions where “luck” becomes more likely to happen. The limited time that the assassin apparently had to plan his ambush made things more difficult. Especially for him to “cover his tracks.” However, consider the items he managed to get accomplished in order to be able to get three shots off before anyone could stop him.

1.  He managed to retrieve the rifle and sneak it into the TSBD without any apparent suspicions being voiced before the assassination. This is even though he didn’t drive and had to hitch a ride from BWF.

2.  He planned his ambush to be from behind and above the target. This gave him not only the element of surprise, but also maximized the time he would have to fire multiple shots.

3.  He managed to find and select a position that was visually well shielded from both outside and inside the TSBD. While sitting on the box seat, he was also able to stay out of sight of the SS agents as they approached the TSBD on Houston Street by simply sitting up straight. The boxes in the window would have made it more difficult for any of the SS agents to see him even if they had looked back at that window during the shooting. And keeping his position essentially initially undetected by LEOs he was able to then have a reasonable chance to escape after the assassination.

4.  This position was also well selected for having a “kill zone” where the target was moving almost directly away from him. This substantially increased his chances of hitting the target.

5. His ability to act calm and blend in with other people after the assassination helped his escape efforts (for a while). This was lost after the Tippit murder and all the frantic police activity in the area and subsequently led to his capture.

I think you're missing the point I was making about the very large element of luck involved in the actual shooting.
In a professional hit, luck is not a factor.
The head shot is an easy shot for a professional. The distances involved are small and there is only minimal lateral movement of the target. To miss the limo completely is not an option for a professional. Even the shot that passes through JFK's throat is a 'miss' as the target is the head.
There is then, at the very minimum, a period of 5 seconds between the non-fatal throat shot and the fatal head shot. This is where the large slice of luck comes in because anything could've happened in this interval that could have rendered the head shot impossible to take.
Luckily, for the shooter, JFK stayed upright and no-one came to his assistance.

I'm surprised that the sloppy and amateurish nature of the assassination isn't used more often by those who believe Oswald was the shooter.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 28, 2025, 06:54:34 PM
Hate to burst your bubble, Royell, but I dealt with the "Huge Gates" years ago and in much more detail than you have.
It's in this thread - https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3078.msg119172.html#msg119172
It starts at Reply#559, read on from there.

All it proves is that the building was not locked down properly. That's all.
It does NOT prove that more than one person was involved in the assassination.
These gates were not closed for at least ten minutes. More importantly, the door to the west of the TSBD building wasn't secured at any point during the day. People could come and go as they pleased through this entrance.

        The link provided above jumps into the middle of the story of the Huge Gates. On top of that, those images show The Gates to be only "ajar". They are not "Wide Open". This is what happens when you jump into the middle of a mystery. You routinely still have a mystery on your hands. The images above were captured After the Kill Shot. What do we know about the status of The Gates before the Kill Shot was fired? Look at the Towner Film as the JFK Limo is turning from Houston St onto Elm St. Where The Gates are supposed to be, we see nothing but a Square Black Hole. Why is that? It is because The Gates and the bright placards on them are Not There. The 2 Huge Gates are "Wide Open" at this point in time prior to the Kill Shot. And for the record, both Gates open INWARD.  If you look at a reverse negative of the Couch Film, those Huge Gates are still "Wide Open" (inward), about 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. We see on the Martin Film showing Euins on the back of Officer Harkness 3 wheel motorcycle, that The Gates are only "ajar" at this point in time. The 2 gates then are roughly 2 feet apart from each other. This would be at about 6 or 7 minutes after the Kill Shot. Officer Harkness gave WC Testimony verifying his making a 12:36 police radio transmission regarding his having a witness, (Euins), with respect to seeing shot(s) fired from the TSBD. (Mandatory to read/know sworn testimony if you seriously want to solve this case). So, how did the Huge Gates go from being "Wide Open" on the Towner Film to simply being "ajar" on the Martin Film at 12:36-12:37?  Officer Luke Mooney gave WC Testimony that he and 2 other officers found those Huge Gates were "Wide Open" as they walked down the Elm St Extension. The 3 officers were inside the train yard when they received orders to secure the TSBD, and they headed down the Elm Ext to do such when they found The Gates "Wide Open". They walked through The Gates and then the 3 of them "Closed" the gates, but they did Not lock them shut. This then puts the Gates in their "ajar" status. (Martin Film). Mooney and the 2 officers then entered the TSBD from the other side of these Huge Gates. Their entry into the TSBD 1st floor found them extremely close to the Stairwell and the Freight Elevators. The 2 officers went up the stairwell while Mooney used the freight elevator. This was the shooter(s) avenue of escape from the TSBD. Straight down the stairwell and then just feet away from walking through the "Wide Open" Huge Gates and mingling into the shocked crowd on the Elm Ext and around the TSBD.                 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 28, 2025, 09:26:27 PM
        The link provided above jumps into the middle of the story of the Huge Gates. On top of that, those images show The Gates to be only "ajar". They are not "Wide Open". This is what happens when you jump into the middle of a mystery. You routinely still have a mystery on your hands. The images above were captured After the Kill Shot. What do we know about the status of The Gates before the Kill Shot was fired? Look at the Towner Film as the JFK Limo is turning from Houston St onto Elm St. Where The Gates are supposed to be, we see nothing but a Square Black Hole. Why is that? It is because The Gates and the bright placards on them are Not There. The 2 Huge Gates are "Wide Open" at this point in time prior to the Kill Shot. And for the record, both Gates open INWARD.  If you look at a reverse negative of the Couch Film, those Huge Gates are still "Wide Open" (inward), about 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. We see on the Martin Film showing Euins on the back of Officer Harkness 3 wheel motorcycle, that The Gates are only "ajar" at this point in time. The 2 gates then are roughly 2 feet apart from each other. This would be at about 6 or 7 minutes after the Kill Shot. Officer Harkness gave WC Testimony verifying his making a 12:36 police radio transmission regarding his having a witness, (Euins), with respect to seeing shot(s) fired from the TSBD. (Mandatory to read/know sworn testimony if you seriously want to solve this case). So, how did the Huge Gates go from being "Wide Open" on the Towner Film to simply being "ajar" on the Martin Film at 12:36-12:37?  Officer Luke Mooney gave WC Testimony that he and 2 other officers found those Huge Gates were "Wide Open" as they walked down the Elm St Extension. The 3 officers were inside the train yard when they received orders to secure the TSBD, and they headed down the Elm Ext to do such when they found The Gates "Wide Open". They walked through The Gates and then the 3 of them "Closed" the gates, but they did Not lock them shut. This then puts the Gates in their "ajar" status. (Martin Film). Mooney and the 2 officers then entered the TSBD from the other side of these Huge Gates. Their entry into the TSBD 1st floor found them extremely close to the Stairwell and the Freight Elevators. The 2 officers went up the stairwell while Mooney used the freight elevator. This was the shooter(s) avenue of escape from the TSBD. Straight down the stairwell and then just feet away from walking through the "Wide Open" Huge Gates and mingling into the shocked crowd on the Elm Ext and around the TSBD.               

This has got nothing to do with the topic of this thread so I'd like you to take it somewhere else, Royell.
I posted - "It starts at Reply#559, read on from there." - but you didn't read on, did you Royell?
Start your own thread about your Huge Gates mystery.
If you have anything to contribute to the topic of this thread feel free to do so.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 29, 2025, 03:14:21 AM
This has got nothing to do with the topic of this thread so I'd like you to take it somewhere else, Royell.
I posted - "It starts at Reply#559, read on from there." - but you didn't read on, did you Royell?
Start your own thread about your Huge Gates mystery.
If you have anything to contribute to the topic of this thread feel free to do so.

    The moral of this story is that Knowing sworn testimony is vitally important to solving the JFK murder. It's easy to just examine the assassination images. This is what most people do.  It is laborious to read through the sworn testimonies and then retain them to memory for future reference when applicable. There are diamonds frequently buried deep within testimony. Diamonds were sprinkled within the Mooney testimony which broke the Huge Gates TSBD Entrance/Exit route wide open. The same was true with the diamonds I discovered in the Officer Haygood/Tague testimonies. Those and the photo of Haygood standing atop the Triple Underpass proved that we are Not seeing Officer Haygood on the Darnell Film. And now I am digging into #3.   ......................STAY TUNED  .......................... 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Jarrett Smith on June 29, 2025, 06:06:48 AM
So, you agree the assassination was not professional. That's the point I was making.
It was not carried out by someone hired/contracted for their specific skill as a marksman.
It would appear to be carried out by someone familiar with rifles but not particularly skilled.

Professional enough they had a man in a secret service disguise. Classic Mafia.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on June 29, 2025, 07:04:05 AM
Professional enough they had a man in a secret service disguise. Classic Mafia.

Why do you have a psychological need to believe the JFKA was a conspiracy?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 29, 2025, 08:38:37 AM
Professional enough they had a man in a secret service disguise. Classic Mafia.

So, you start off by saying - "Maybe not professional" - and now it's - "Professional enough"
I assume you believe there was a shot from the GK and you're just going to ignore the points being made about how ludicrous an idea that is in terms of planning the assassination.
The GK could have been swarming with people, there could have been hundreds of people in that area. The planners had no way of knowing what they would be dealing with. There could have been hundreds lining Elm Street. And behind the picket fence was a car park - people parking cars, returning to cars etc.
The car park area was wide open. Look at the pic below, there is no way to control this area:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwJsqgKC/TSBDarialbehind.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Try to put yourself in the position of someone planning the assassination.
How sensible does a shot from behind the picket fence look now?

One of the main reasons why people believe there was a shot from behind the picket fence is because so many people run up to that area immediately following the shooting.
Motorcycle cop, Clyde Haygood, heard this transmission on his radio from police Chief Curry:

"Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there".

That's exactly what Haygood does. He gets off his bike and races up to the triple underpass - not up behind the picket fence.
A group of people see a cop running up there and decided to follow and this causes a cascade effect of people running up to that general
area just because they've seen other people running up to that area.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 29, 2025, 09:49:23 PM
 
   At no time during Officer Haygood's WC Testimony does he say he heard Chief Curry's command, "get a man on top of that Triple Underpass.......". Haygood did testify that he saw people on the ground pointing back up to the railroad yard, along with a couple of people being headed back up that way. This prompted Haygood to park his motorcycle at the curb and then run up the grassy knoll toward the railroad yard. This is one of the many reasons that being familiar with Sworn Testimony is important. It prevents Urban Legends from being created and/or passed along.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Charles Collins on June 29, 2025, 10:47:53 PM
I think you're missing the point I was making about the very large element of luck involved in the actual shooting.
In a professional hit, luck is not a factor.
The head shot is an easy shot for a professional. The distances involved are small and there is only minimal lateral movement of the target. To miss the limo completely is not an option for a professional. Even the shot that passes through JFK's throat is a 'miss' as the target is the head.
There is then, at the very minimum, a period of 5 seconds between the non-fatal throat shot and the fatal head shot. This is where the large slice of luck comes in because anything could've happened in this interval that could have rendered the head shot impossible to take.
Luckily, for the shooter, JFK stayed upright and no-one came to his assistance.

I'm surprised that the sloppy and amateurish nature of the assassination isn't used more often by those who believe Oswald was the shooter.


I said that I agreed with the main point of your original post. I simply pointed out that the assassin did a lot of things right in order to be able to take advantage of the “luck”. Frankly, I do not think that any professional assassin would have chosen Dealey Plaza for an assassination attempt in the first place. Add that one to your list if you wish (you are welcome).
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 30, 2025, 02:58:47 AM
Maybe it’s not quite as sloppy as it may appear.
 If the conspirator shooter IS using the MC rifle that Oswald had been “given”?  (For a period of time and taken photo of) then this shooter did a pretty amazing job of scoring a hit on JFK on his FIRST shot which is at Z223-224.
Then in another 4.8 secs after that he got the 313 head kill shot ( an 8”diameter target moving away at 8mph at about 90 yds.) And he did that with irons sights most likely because the scope was misaligned. Imo, that’s NOT an amateur shooter.
Then just to make sure that at least a couple of witness would see the rifle at the 6th floor SE window sticking out the window, the shooter fired a 3rd  shot about 2 secs AFTER 313, which was not really aimed , and hit the curb near Tague.

This conspirator shooter probably got into the TSBD with the MC rifle on the late night Thursday, and hid himself on the 7th floor attic space, He came down to the 6th floor at 12:15pm to the SW 6th floor window where he was seen by Arnold Rowland. He saw BR Williams so retreated and hid himself until NRW had left the floor. The shooter then moved to SE window to get a better shot angle.

Why the conspirator shooter did not just leave the rifle in plain view at the SE window? Maybe he thought that would be too obvious and cause suspicion of a set up of Oswald, otherwise I’m not sure.

How this shooter escaped from 6th floor and past Baker and Truly as they were watching Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, would be to use the west elevator ( instead of Dougherty).

If Dougherty could have used the west elevator and not be seen by Dorothy Garner, Baker, Truly, or Eddie Piper, then so could the shooter.

What was Oswald carrying in the paper bag that was under his armpit and in the cup of his hand? If they had found curtain rods or a roll of blinds in a paper bag several months later, say in the storage room by the front stairs, would anyone have reported that? Given all the other fake documents , destroyed notes, and rearranging SN etc , it’s doubtful.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 30, 2025, 03:45:03 PM

    I believe that Assassin(s) Entry and Exit from the TSBD was done via the Huge Gates that were attached to the side of the TSBD along the Elm St. Extension. Officer Luke Mooney gave WC Testimony regarding his walking through these "Wide Open" gates, about 5-6  minutes after the Kill Shot. Mooney then entered the TSBD 1st floor in very close proximity to the stairwell and freight elevators. These gates were "wide open" on the Towner Film prior to the Kill Shot, and are still  "Wide Open" after the Kill Shot, (Couch Film). (The gates opened Inward). After walking through the Huge Gates, Officer Mooney testified as to closing them. His closing of these gates would be at about 6-7 minutes after the Kill Shot. (The gates can be seen to be closed on the Martin Film as Amos Euins is filmed on the back of the Officer Harkin's 3 wheel motorcycle racing down the Elm St Ext). The assassin(s) could have easily walked through the "wide open" Huge Gates shortly before shots were fired. They then entered the TSBD 1st Floor and immediately walked up the close by stairwell to the 6th floor. They exited the TSBD in reverse manner and simply mixed into the stunned eyewitnesses outside of the TSBD. 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 30, 2025, 04:04:41 PM
 
   At no time during Officer Haygood's WC Testimony does he say he heard Chief Curry's command, "get a man on top of that Triple Underpass.......". Haygood did testify that he saw people on the ground pointing back up to the railroad yard, along with a couple of people being headed back up that way. This prompted Haygood to park his motorcycle at the curb and then run up the grassy knoll toward the railroad yard. This is one of the many reasons that being familiar with Sworn Testimony is important. It prevents Urban Legends from being created and/or passed along.

You are quite correct, Royell.
That was an assumption on my part and should have been stated as such.
Seconds after the shooting, Curry gives the command - "Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there".
Haygood has a radio on his bike so can hear the transmission and does exactly what Curry commanded but, as you correctly point out, Haygood never specifically states that this is what happened.

Just to get back to the point of the topic...
...the argument for 'teams' of professionals or multiple professional marksmen often revolves around a shot from the GK.
There are a few reasons often cited to support this argument, one of which is that a large number of people seem to head up to the picket fence area in the immediate aftermath of the shooting which suggests a shot came from there.
In fact, this is not the case.
Apart from one man who races up the steps on seeing the head shot (I believe his wife and infant child are on a bench at the top of the steps) there is a gap of approximately 30 seconds before anyone thinks to run up the GK.
This excellent Cabluck/Cancellare composite from Robin Unger's gallery shows the exact moment (I've added the blue letters for enhancement). These four kids appear to be running after Haygood and end up following him to the top of the triple underpass.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xwWY2hF/cabluckcancellarecomposite.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The hordes of people approaching from the corner of Main and Houston, across the open grassy area of Dealey Plaza, see people running  around the GK area and head for that. It is nothing to do with hearing shots from that area and witnesses like Marilyn Sitzman, stood feet away from this area, completely refute any notion of an audible shot from this area.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 30, 2025, 04:14:27 PM
    I believe that Assassin(s) Entry and Exit from the TSBD was done via the Huge Gates that were attached to the side of the TSBD along the Elm St. Extension. Officer Luke Mooney gave WC Testimony regarding his walking through these "Wide Open" gates, about 5-6  minutes after the Kill Shot. Mooney then entered the TSBD 1st floor in very close proximity to the stairwell and freight elevators. These gates were "wide open" on the Towner Film prior to the Kill Shot, and are still  "Wide Open" after the Kill Shot, (Couch Film). (The gates opened Inward). After walking through the Huge Gates, Officer Mooney testified as to closing them. His closing of these gates would be at about 6-7 minutes after the Kill Shot. (The gates can be seen to be closed on the Martin Film as Amos Euins is filmed on the back of the Officer Harkin's 3 wheel motorcycle racing down the Elm St Ext). The assassin(s) could have easily walked through the "wide open" Huge Gates shortly before shots were fired. They then entered the TSBD 1st Floor and immediately walked up the close by stairwell to the 6th floor. They exited the TSBD in reverse manner and simply mixed into the stunned eyewitnesses outside of the TSBD.

I find it really rude and aggressive that you are constantly trying to derail this thread even though you've been asked not to.
As you are clearly too lazy to do it, I will start a thread to deal with your Huge Gates theory.
If you have nothing to add to the actual topic of this thread kindly refrain from posting.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on June 30, 2025, 04:18:12 PM
IMO
The CTer alternative to Oswald taking the shots always seems to involve professional hitman/snipers or even teams of them at various points in and around Dealey Plaza. Apparently the plan being to have people firing from all different angles while trying to make it look like there is only one guy firing three shots from a specific location.
Imagine the planning meeting for that!
Surely someone would've pointed out the impossibility of this plan or the stupidity of it.
These guys are professionals after all, highly trained and organised...

Q: ...and how many people should we expect in Dealey Plaza?

A: I'm not sure, it could be hundreds, it could even be thousands. People could be swarming all over the Grassy Knoll and behind the picket fence. We have no way of knowing but we're going to assume the crowds have disappeared by this point.

Q: What's a grassy Noel?

The target is JFK's head.
A professional hit would involve a single shot to the head.
Of the three clearly audible shots reported by over 160 witnesses, only one hits the target. If there are more shots than three, these also miss the target making the whole escapade even more sloppy.
I've never been, but anyone I've ever heard talk about Dealey Plaza are amazed at how small it is, how small the distances are.
For a professional, a head shot in these circumstances is easy.
For an amateur it involves missing the limo and all it's occupants completely, hitting JFK but not in the right place and, eventually a head shot (but not necessarily in that order).
The speed of the three shots implies panic, not a cool head.
And the most important fact is this - JFK is shot through the throat and there is, at the very least, a 5 second gap between this non-fatal shot happening and the fatal head shot. In this 5 second gap anything could happen: the limo speeds off or starts evasive swerving manoeuvres, one of the Secret Service agents actually does his job and makes it to JFK and covers him or JFK slumps all the way over to his left, puts his head in Jackie's lap and is impossible to hit, or any other number of scenarios where the head shot cannot be made.
The point is this - there is a truly massive slice of luck involved in the assassination of JFK.
Professionals would not find themselves in a situation that involved this amount of luck.
The assassination is perpetrated by a non-professional.
IMO

There is a much simpler, more logical conspiracy scenario, one that has plenty of precedents in other plots and in numerous military operations. It is simply this: The plan was to kill JFK with one, two, or three shots being fired, ideally just one or two shots, so that the shooting could be attributed to a single gunman. However, the shooting did not go according to plan, just as many carefully planned and rehearsed military operations have not gone according to plan.

The goal of the shooting, to kill JFK, was achieved, but several of the shots missed, and one of the missed shots hit Connally. Almost immediately, the news media, being spoon-fed by official sources, assumed only three shots were fired and that there was only one gunman. The throat entry wound was initially explained by the claim that JFK had turned around to look behind the limo, but then came the autopsy report several days later. The WC was forced to ignore all the accounts of extra missed shots and of shots from the grassy knoll, to dismiss Gov. Connally's compelling testimony, and to concoct the ridiculous single-bullet theory. The military personnel at the autopsy were placed under gag orders and threatened with court martial if they failed to obey. The Parkland doctors' troubling accounts were dismissed as the sincere errors of men who were working too hurriedly to accurately identify and diagnose the wounds, and some of the Parkland doctors were pressured or felt obliged to change their accounts to conform with the autopsy report (but others did not).

For the first two years or so, this cover-up story worked and was widely accepted. However, by 1967, with the publication of Mark Lane's book Rush to Judgment in August 1966 and Sylvia Meagher's book Accessories After the Fact in 1967, this began to change. Polls began to show a sizable majority of Americans rejecting the lone-gunman explanation.













Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 30, 2025, 04:43:41 PM

  There is Nothing "sloppy and amateurish" about having those Huge Gates "wide open" BEFORE the JFK Limo rolled down Houston and then Elm St. This easy/clandestine access and exit to the TSBD was planned. And it directly addresses the topic of this thread. 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 30, 2025, 05:00:07 PM
  There is Nothing "sloppy and amateurish" about having those Huge Gates "wide open" BEFORE the JFK Limo rolled down Houston and then Elm St. This easy/clandestine access and exit to the TSBD was planned. And it directly addresses the topic of this thread.

Why did they have to be "wide open".
What's professional about having two gigantic gates "wide open".
How does that address the topic of this thread.
Why can't the gates be simply in the closed position but unlocked?
Why are your professional conspirators advertising to the world where their point of entry and exit is?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 30, 2025, 05:09:00 PM
There is a much simpler, more logical conspiracy scenario, one that has plenty of precedents in other plots and in numerous military operations. It is simply this: The plan was to kill JFK with one, two, or three shots being fired, ideally just one or two shots, so that the shooting could be attributed to a single gunman. However, the shooting did not go according to plan, just as many carefully planned and rehearsed military operations have not gone according to plan.

The goal of the shooting, to kill JFK, was achieved, but several of the shots missed, and one of the missed shots hit Connally. Almost immediately, the news media, being spoon-fed by official sources, assumed only three shots were fired and that there was only one gunman. The throat entry wound was initially explained by the claim that JFK had turned around to look behind the limo, but then came the autopsy report several days later. The WC was forced to ignore all the accounts of extra missed shots and of shots from the grassy knoll, to dismiss Gov. Connally's compelling testimony, and to concoct the ridiculous single-bullet theory. The military personnel at the autopsy were placed under gag orders and threatened with court martial if they failed to obey. The Parkland doctors' troubling accounts were dismissed as the sincere errors of men who were working too hurriedly to accurately identify and diagnose the wounds, and some of the Parkland doctors were pressured or felt obliged to change their accounts to conform with the autopsy report (but others did not).

For the first two years or so, this cover-up story worked and was widely accepted. However, by 1967, with the publication of Mark Lane's book Rush to Judgment in August 1966 and Sylvia Meagher's book Accessories After the Fact in 1967, this began to change. Polls began to show a sizable majority of Americans rejecting the lone-gunman explanation.

Just so I understand correctly:

You are postulating that there was at least two, if not more, military-trained professional marksmen taking the shots?
Is that correct?

You agree the distances are small and the head shot is an incredibly easy shot to make for an expert marksman?
You agree only one shot actually found it's mark (JFK's head)?
How many shots do you propose actually missed their mark (JFK's head)?

LATER EDIT: And what is your opinion about the arguments put forward in this thread for choosing the position behind the picket fence to take a shot?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on June 30, 2025, 06:06:23 PM
Why did they have to be "wide open".
What's professional about having two gigantic gates "wide open".
How does that address the topic of this thread.
Why can't the gates be simply in the closed position but unlocked?
Why are your professional conspirators advertising to the world where their point of entry and exit is?

   The Huge Gates open Inward. They were Not hanging outward for everyone to see. Everyone's eyes were trained down Houston St and Elm St in order to see the JFK Motorcade. People were Not looking down the Elm St Ext in anticipation of the JFK Motorcade arrival. Personally, I believe having those gates being open was Oswald's responsibility. That, and preparing the sniper's nest. Then he went to the 2nd floor lunchroom as instructed. They probably had a man on those gates to prevent a good samaritan from locking them shut.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on June 30, 2025, 11:59:26 PM
   The Huge Gates open Inward. They were Not hanging outward for everyone to see. Everyone's eyes were trained down Houston St and Elm St in order to see the JFK Motorcade. People were Not looking down the Elm St Ext in anticipation of the JFK Motorcade arrival. Personally, I believe having those gates being open was Oswald's responsibility. That, and preparing the sniper's nest. Then he went to the 2nd floor lunchroom as instructed. They probably had a man on those gates to prevent a good samaritan from locking them shut.

 :D :D :D
You make it all sound so professional.
Was the guy watching the gates a specially trained gate-watcher?
For the third time, please stop trying to derail this thread and take your Huge Gates nonsense to the thread I created for you because you're too lazy to do it for yourself.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Royell Storing on July 01, 2025, 12:49:01 AM
:D :D :D
You make it all sound so professional.
Was the guy watching the gates a specially trained gate-watcher?
For the third time, please stop trying to derail this thread and take your Huge Gates nonsense to the thread I created for you because you're too lazy to do it for yourself.

   YOU asked ME several questions. Above, you ask me even another question about the "gate-watcher". I answer your questions and you then get torque'd off. You make no sense. This assassination was a professionally done job. Those Huge Gates being "wide open" was no accident. If you had read the Officer Mooney WC Testimony, you would know that there was a "civilian" on those Huge Gates. Please familiarize yourself with sworn testimony. It will minimize the egg on your face. 
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 01, 2025, 01:02:32 AM
Maybe it’s not quite as sloppy as it may appear.
 If the conspirator shooter IS using the MC rifle that Oswald had been “given”?  (For a period of time and taken photo of) then this shooter did a pretty amazing job of scoring a hit on JFK on his FIRST shot which is at Z223-224.
Then in another 4.8 secs after that he got the 313 head kill shot ( an 8”diameter target moving away at 8mph at about 90 yds.) And he did that with irons sights most likely because the scope was misaligned. Imo, that’s NOT an amateur shooter.
Then just to make sure that at least a couple of witness would see the rifle at the 6th floor SE window sticking out the window, the shooter fired a 3rd  shot about 2 secs AFTER 313, which was not really aimed , and hit the curb near Tague.

This conspirator shooter probably got into the TSBD with the MC rifle on the late night Thursday, and hid himself on the 7th floor attic space, He came down to the 6th floor at 12:15pm to the SW 6th floor window where he was seen by Arnold Rowland. He saw BR Williams so retreated and hid himself until NRW had left the floor. The shooter then moved to SE window to get a better shot angle.

Why the conspirator shooter did not just leave the rifle in plain view at the SE window? Maybe he thought that would be too obvious and cause suspicion of a set up of Oswald, otherwise I’m not sure.

How this shooter escaped from 6th floor and past Baker and Truly as they were watching Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, would be to use the west elevator ( instead of Dougherty).

If Dougherty could have used the west elevator and not be seen by Dorothy Garner, Baker, Truly, or Eddie Piper, then so could the shooter.

What was Oswald carrying in the paper bag that was under his armpit and in the cup of his hand? If they had found curtain rods or a roll of blinds in a paper bag several months later, say in the storage room by the front stairs, would anyone have reported that? Given all the other fake documents , destroyed notes, and rearranging SN etc , it’s doubtful.

If the conspirator shooter IS using the MC rifle that Oswald had been “given”?

I find it very difficult to believe that a professional marksman, contracted to assassinate the most powerful man on the planet would use Oswald's MC to do the job.
I really don't see that happening but that's just my opinion.

then this shooter did a pretty amazing job of scoring a hit on JFK on his FIRST shot which is at Z223-224.

As I've stated, it's my opinion the shooter was aiming for a head shot, ideally the centre of the head.
If that's the case then the first shot (which passed through both JFK and JBC between z222 and z223 IMO) was a miss by a good 8 - 10 inches.
The head shot struck between z312 and z313, some 4.92 (let's call it 5) seconds after the first, non-fatal, shot. It is just a massive stroke of luck that during these 5 seconds nothing happened that could prevent the head shot.
So, IMO, we have a miss then a massive stroke of luck. Not my idea of a professional, military, expert operation.

Then just to make sure that at least a couple of witness would see the rifle at the 6th floor SE window sticking out the window, the shooter fired a 3rd  shot about 2 secs AFTER 313, which was not really aimed , and hit the curb near Tague.

I, too, believe the third shot happened after the fatal head shot but I'm totally baffled as to why you would think the third shot was fired to draw attention to the rifle. I really don't get what you're reasoning might be for that. Why would a professional gunman be deliberately trying to give his position away?
The third shot is completely unnecessary and seems to me like it has an element of panic to it. I get the impression it is a wild, hurried shot that misses everything including the limo.
Again, this does not strike me as being particularly professional.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on July 01, 2025, 01:12:44 AM
[If the sniper used Oswald's Carcano,] then he did a pretty amazing job of scoring a hit on JFK on his FIRST shot which is at Z223-224.

Oswald's FIRST shot wasn't at z223-z224.

His SECOND shot was, though.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 01, 2025, 01:26:06 AM
Oswald's FIRST shot wasn't at z223-z224.

His SECOND shot was, though.

The first of the three clearly audible shots passed through both JFK and JBC between z222 and z223.
The second shot was the head shot, between z312 and z313.

The mountain of evidence supporting this claim can be found at "The First Shot" thread - https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2723.msg98813.html#msg98813
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on July 01, 2025, 01:44:34 AM
The first of the three clearly audible shots passed through both JFK and JBC between z222 and z223.
The second shot was the head shot, between z312 and z313.

Oswald's first (missing everything) shot at hypothetical "Z-124" (i.e., half-a second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133) was sufficiently steeply-downward-angled as to require him to stand and awkwardly lean forward while firing it.

The muzzle of his Carcano was, therefore, inside the building when he fired said missing-everything shot.

The sound of the muzzle blast it created was therefore different from the sounds of his next two shots (at Z-222 - Z-224 and Z-313), which shots were fired from a kneeling position -- and with the muzzle of his Carcano outside the building.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 01, 2025, 01:49:23 AM
Oswald's first (missing everything) shot at hypothetical "Z-124" (i.e., half-a second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133) was sufficiently steeply-downward-angled as to require him to stand and awkwardly lean forward while firing it.

The muzzle of his Carcano was, therefore, inside the building, and the sound of the muzzle blast it created was therefore different from the sounds of his next two shots at Z222-Z-224 and Z-313, which shots were fired from a kneeling position -- and with the muzzle of his Carcano outside the building.

I have a mountain of evidence to back up my claim.
The same mountain of evidence completely obliterates the notion of such an early shot.
I would, however, be interested to hear what evidence you have based your belief in such an early shot on.
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Tom Graves on July 01, 2025, 01:52:52 AM
I would be interested to hear what evidence you have based your belief in such an early (i.e., hypothetical "Z-124") shot on.

Perhaps you missed my earlier posts (on different "threads") on the subject.

Are you hoping for a special one-on-one tutorial?
Title: Re: The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 01, 2025, 08:37:15 AM
Perhaps you missed my earlier posts (on different "threads") on the subject.

Are you hoping for a special one-on-one tutorial?

A one-on-one tutorial?
 :D :D
Thanks for the offer but I'll have to decline.
I've covered this issue in great detail in "The First Shot" thread. If you want to get up to speed check it out.

Other than the mountain of evidence ruling out such an early shot I can see at least one big problem with your theory right away.
Having Oswald standing for the first shot should have had alarm bells ringing.
I doubt it's even possible to stand by a half closed window in that small space and hit a target on the road.
The arrangement of the Sniper's Perch would clearly indicate the shooter was preparing for a shot after the limo emerged from behind the oak tree. Why create the Perch then stand? Wouldn't these boxes be in the way while he was standing? I reckon it would be near impossible to get a standing shot on target in these circumstances.