JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Martin Fox on April 30, 2025, 05:03:11 AM
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The JFK case is deeply problematic. Every attempt to tie Oswald to the assassination spawns conspiracy theories simply because you’re wading into a fog of misinformation. There were nearly a dozen investigators, yet no one was properly overseeing things. It’s hardly surprising that the evidence was trampled, smeared, torn apart, and destroyed in the chaotic rush.
I don’t take things at face value. In my experience, under stress, the human brain tends to fill in gaps in memory — very few people have a photographic recall, let alone the ability to accurately recreate events on paper.
I lean toward the official version because I’m willing to accept it as mostly truthful. That doesn’t excuse the strange behavior of the intelligence agencies or the chaos within them ahead of an expected leadership change. But the official narrative has one glaring flaw — the biggest of all. Once you answer it, the case falls into place: How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository? Years have passed, and no one has been able to provide a clear answer.
You don’t need to ask about a third party. You don’t need to link Ruby and Oswald — jurisprudence (let alone history) doesn’t deal in maybes, and even if they knew each other, that’s a separate issue. In law, things proceed step by step.
So, you have the Texas School Book Depository. You have the sixth floor, where three spent rifle cartridges were found near an open window. Later, the rifle itself was discovered there. You have a list of employees, one of whom is missing — his coworkers say he was there, but he’s gone.
You need to find him — to determine why he vanished: fear, illness, flight. Maybe you’ll get fingerprints that match. Maybe you’ll find gunshot residue that aligns. But the key evidence is how the shooter left the crime scene.
And we have conflicting witness statements, even doubts about the number of shots fired — 2, 3, 5, possibly including a blank, 8…
Let’s say there were three shots. We have three shell casings. And we know the shooter had to be skilled. So we’re looking for marksmen — hard to narrow down in America, where every other man can shoot. In Italy, France, or Russia, maybe one in five served in wars. A reenactment with three shots would require intense focus.
Suppose there were only two shots — then why a third casing? I doubt there’s any method to determine, based on the casings alone, when each shot was fired — if that’s even possible.
Even if you match the prints and prove the rifle was Oswald’s, that doesn’t directly prove he pulled the trigger. Even if you have a written confession backed by a "lie detector," it’s still not definitive.
The strongest evidence — the critical link — is how the shooter left the scene. Who walked away from where those three shell casings were found?
All these years later — and it’s been a long time — no one has clearly explained how the "owner of those three shell casings" got off the sixth floor or which route he took. Oswald’s testimony won’t help — he denied everything. I’m not even sure anyone asked him why he left work early that day. No experiment has answered it, either.
It’s bizarre, given the enormity of the event, that no one has recreated the shots from the sixth floor to record echoes and compare audio data. It wouldn’t be expensive. Yet everyone argues about ballistics and acoustics based on interpretations of old recordings — while the number of living witnesses dwindles each year.
And were all buildings overlooking Dealey Plaza thoroughly checked?
But I suspect that until someone answers the question of the "owner of the three shell casings," the JFK case will keep spawning new theories. :-[
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------- TO BE CONTINUED, (as promised) ---------------- For starters, how about taking a look at the 3 Tramps Photo that shows The Tramps being escorted down the Elm St Ext and passed the TSBD. See those Huge Gates? See how those Huge Gates are AJAR/OPEN? That side of the TSBD has access to those Huge Gates that are Ajar/Open. The 3 Tramps Photo was taken roughly 1:45-2:00 Hrs AFTER the Kill Shot. Those Huge Gates are also visible on the Martin Film. You can see those same Huge Gates on the segment of the Martin Film showing Amos Euins on the back of DPD Harkness's 3 Wheel Motorcycle as they speed down the Elm St Ext. Those Huge Gates are also AJAR/OPEN at this point in time. This Amos Euins Scene is taking place roughly 5 Minutes following the Kill Shot. This means those Huge Gates, (which are accessible from the TSBD), were Ajar/Open from at least 5 MINUTES after the Kill Shot until roughly 2 Hrs After the Kill Shot. Oswald and/or anyone else could have exited the TSBD via these Huge Gates and easily mixed into the shocked crowd outside of the TSBD. (1) WHY are these Huge Gates OPEN immediately after the Kill Shot? (2) Why are these Huge Gates REMAINING OPEN for roughly 2 Hrs? -------------- TO BE CONTINUED -----------------------------
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You bring up interesting details, but they don’t disprove the official story. The open gates are odd, but they’re not proof of a conspiracy. The key question — how did the shooter leave the sixth floor? — still remains, and the official version doesn’t give a clear answer (it has gaps).
We could look into:
Witness testimony (like Victoria Adams, who saw Oswald on the stairs).
Police reports on movements around the TSBD.
Photo/video analysis (e.g., were the gates really open in all footage?).
But so far, there’s no solid evidence that Oswald (or anyone else) used those gates to escape.
The answer starts with how the shooter got out: Did he take the elevator (which one?), the stairs?
If we know Oswald yelled at coworkers to hold the elevator doors on the first floor, could the elevator have somehow ended up on the fifth floor after the shooter used it?
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The JFK case is deeply problematic. Every attempt to tie Oswald to the assassination spawns conspiracy theories simply because you’re wading into a fog of misinformation. There were nearly a dozen investigators, yet no one was properly overseeing things. It’s hardly surprising that the evidence was trampled, smeared, torn apart, and destroyed in the chaotic rush.
I don’t take things at face value. In my experience, under stress, the human brain tends to fill in gaps in memory — very few people have a photographic recall, let alone the ability to accurately recreate events on paper.
I lean toward the official version because I’m willing to accept it as mostly truthful. That doesn’t excuse the strange behavior of the intelligence agencies or the chaos within them ahead of an expected leadership change. But the official narrative has one glaring flaw — the biggest of all. Once you answer it, the case falls into place: How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository? Years have passed, and no one has been able to provide a clear answer.
You don’t need to ask about a third party. You don’t need to link Ruby and Oswald — jurisprudence (let alone history) doesn’t deal in maybes, and even if they knew each other, that’s a separate issue. In law, things proceed step by step.
So, you have the Texas School Book Depository. You have the sixth floor, where three spent rifle cartridges were found near an open window. Later, the rifle itself was discovered there. You have a list of employees, one of whom is missing — his coworkers say he was there, but he’s gone.
You need to find him — to determine why he vanished: fear, illness, flight. Maybe you’ll get fingerprints that match. Maybe you’ll find gunshot residue that aligns. But the key evidence is how the shooter left the crime scene.
And we have conflicting witness statements, even doubts about the number of shots fired — 2, 3, 5, possibly including a blank, 8…
Let’s say there were three shots. We have three shell casings. And we know the shooter had to be skilled. So we’re looking for marksmen — hard to narrow down in America, where every other man can shoot. In Italy, France, or Russia, maybe one in five served in wars. A reenactment with three shots would require intense focus.
Suppose there were only two shots — then why a third casing? I doubt there’s any method to determine, based on the casings alone, when each shot was fired — if that’s even possible.
Even if you match the prints and prove the rifle was Oswald’s, that doesn’t directly prove he pulled the trigger. Even if you have a written confession backed by a "lie detector," it’s still not definitive.
The strongest evidence — the critical link — is how the shooter left the scene. Who walked away from where those three shell casings were found?
All these years later — and it’s been a long time — no one has clearly explained how the "owner of those three shell casings" got off the sixth floor or which route he took. Oswald’s testimony won’t help — he denied everything. I’m not even sure anyone asked him why he left work early that day. No experiment has answered it, either.
It’s bizarre, given the enormity of the event, that no one has recreated the shots from the sixth floor to record echoes and compare audio data. It wouldn’t be expensive. Yet everyone argues about ballistics and acoustics based on interpretations of old recordings — while the number of living witnesses dwindles each year.
And were all buildings overlooking Dealey Plaza thoroughly checked?
But I suspect that until someone answers the question of the "owner of the three shell casings," the JFK case will keep spawning new theories. :-[
Suppose there were only two shots — then why a third casing? I doubt there’s any method to determine, based on the casings alone, when each shot was fired — if that’s even possible.
It is possible to determine which shell was fired first. The Warren Commission hypothesized in the conclusions about one shell was ejected before the firing sequence. Additionally, it was suggested that the news media accounts influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots.
The FBI report on the analysis of the shells along with Josiah Thompsons observation, noted on pages 140 –146 and in his footnotes on page 178, in his book Six Seconds in Dallas, provide the evidence that CE 543 was not fired in the rifle and CE 545 was fired first followed by CE 544 second. The visual inspection of the depth of the indentation on the side of the shells, referred to as the “chamber mark” in the FBI shell analysis report sent to Rankin, indicate the firing order. CE 543 is the only shell casing of the 30+ shells examined by Thompson that did not have the “chamber mark” on the side of the shell casing.
CE 141, the unfired cartridge ejected from the chamber of the carcano, also has a “chamber mark” indentation from just the heat expansion of the chamber of the rifle due to firing the other two rounds.
All of this information is available in the Smithsonian and easily accessible and provable to a firearms expert. The FBI has already determined the indentation on the side of the shell casings came from the chamber of the rifle. Another 30+ shells observed by Thompson prove it.
It’s bizarre, given the enormity of the event, that no one has recreated the shots from the sixth floor to record echoes and compare audio data. It wouldn’t be expensive. Yet everyone argues about ballistics and acoustics based on interpretations of old recordings — while the number of living witnesses dwindles each year.
Two shots are no great feat of marksmanship. Especially given the distances of 55 yards and 88 yards.
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Go to patspeer.com and he breaks this down very well. I can't remember the details but he found there was a black guy who I think so Oswald and the stairs and some such thing.
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Go to patspeer.com and he breaks this down very well. I can't remember the details but he found there was a black guy who I think so Oswald and the stairs and some such thing.
English, please.
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We have Proven UNLOCKED Gates for a continuous period of 2 Hrs following the Kill Shot, and these same Gates connect directly to the TSBD, yet you choose to simply walk away from this revelation? Which one of you guys is Sgt. Frank Drebin, "The Naked Gun"? You simply are Not serious JFK Assassination researchers.
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The JFK case is deeply problematic. Every attempt to tie Oswald to the assassination spawns conspiracy theories simply because you’re wading into a fog of misinformation. There were nearly a dozen investigators, yet no one was properly overseeing things. It’s hardly surprising that the evidence was trampled, smeared, torn apart, and destroyed in the chaotic rush.
I don’t take things at face value. In my experience, under stress, the human brain tends to fill in gaps in memory — very few people have a photographic recall, let alone the ability to accurately recreate events on paper.
I lean toward the official version because I’m willing to accept it as mostly truthful. That doesn’t excuse the strange behavior of the intelligence agencies or the chaos within them ahead of an expected leadership change. But the official narrative has one glaring flaw — the biggest of all. Once you answer it, the case falls into place: How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository? Years have passed, and no one has been able to provide a clear answer.
You don’t need to ask about a third party. You don’t need to link Ruby and Oswald — jurisprudence (let alone history) doesn’t deal in maybes, and even if they knew each other, that’s a separate issue. In law, things proceed step by step.
So, you have the Texas School Book Depository. You have the sixth floor, where three spent rifle cartridges were found near an open window. Later, the rifle itself was discovered there. You have a list of employees, one of whom is missing — his coworkers say he was there, but he’s gone.
You need to find him — to determine why he vanished: fear, illness, flight. Maybe you’ll get fingerprints that match. Maybe you’ll find gunshot residue that aligns. But the key evidence is how the shooter left the crime scene.
And we have conflicting witness statements, even doubts about the number of shots fired — 2, 3, 5, possibly including a blank, 8…
Let’s say there were three shots. We have three shell casings. And we know the shooter had to be skilled. So we’re looking for marksmen — hard to narrow down in America, where every other man can shoot. In Italy, France, or Russia, maybe one in five served in wars. A reenactment with three shots would require intense focus.
Suppose there were only two shots — then why a third casing? I doubt there’s any method to determine, based on the casings alone, when each shot was fired — if that’s even possible.
Even if you match the prints and prove the rifle was Oswald’s, that doesn’t directly prove he pulled the trigger. Even if you have a written confession backed by a "lie detector," it’s still not definitive.
The strongest evidence — the critical link — is how the shooter left the scene. Who walked away from where those three shell casings were found?
All these years later — and it’s been a long time — no one has clearly explained how the "owner of those three shell casings" got off the sixth floor or which route he took. Oswald’s testimony won’t help — he denied everything. I’m not even sure anyone asked him why he left work early that day. No experiment has answered it, either.
It’s bizarre, given the enormity of the event, that no one has recreated the shots from the sixth floor to record echoes and compare audio data. It wouldn’t be expensive. Yet everyone argues about ballistics and acoustics based on interpretations of old recordings — while the number of living witnesses dwindles each year.
And were all buildings overlooking Dealey Plaza thoroughly checked?
But I suspect that until someone answers the question of the "owner of the three shell casings," the JFK case will keep spawning new theories. :-[
How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor?
He descended the stairs.
The owner of the three shells was Lee Harvey Oswald.
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How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor?
He descended the stairs.
The owner of the three shells was Lee Harvey Oswald.
How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor?
He descended the stairs.
"Richard Smith" said that the evidence that shows that Oswald went down the stairs after the shooting is.... THAT IT HAPPENED!
Do you agree with him?
The owner of the three shells was Lee Harvey Oswald.
What evidence do you have to support this claim? Can you show that Oswald ever bought any bullets?
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How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor?
He descended the stairs.
"Richard Smith" said that the evidence that shows that Oswald went down the stairs after the shooting is.... THAT IT HAPPENED!
Do you agree with him?
The owner of the three shells was Lee Harvey Oswald.
What evidence do you have to support this claim? Can you show that Oswald ever bought any bullets?
The evidence that Oswald went down the stairs is that using one of the elevators would not have got him down to the second floor before Baker and Truly got there.
The shells had been fired in Oswald's Carcano. That's how I know that they were his. I assume that he had bought them. I suppose that it is possible that someone gave them to him but it doesn't seem likely.
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The evidence that Oswald went down the stairs is that using one of the elevators would not have got him down to the second floor before Baker and Truly got there.
The shells had been fired in Oswald's Carcano. That's how I know that they were his. I assume that he had bought them. I suppose that it is possible that someone gave them to him but it doesn't seem likely.
The evidence that Oswald went down the stairs is that using one of the elevators would not have got him down to the second floor before Baker and Truly got there.
Very creative! Silly, but creative nevertheless. What exactly makes you claim that Oswald actually went down the stairs after the shots were fired? Can you even place him on the 6th floor at 12:30?
The shells had been fired in Oswald's Carcano. That's how I know that they were his. I assume that he had bought them. I suppose that it is possible that someone gave them to him but it doesn't seem likely.
Well, it seems you not only assume he bought the bullets, but also that the rifle found at the TSBD was actually fired that day and that it was owned by Oswald.
Wouldn't you prefer to actually have some solid evidence instead of making assumptions?
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This is weak. Nobody knows if/how Oswald got down to the 2nd Floor. Nobody knows how Oswald exited the TSBD. None of you posting on this thread even know the TSBD Building. You seem to believe that it's either the Stairs or Freight Elevator to descend. Nope! Learn the building, think outside the conventional blather. I have Revealed the Unlocked Huge Gates. This is Extremely Important, but not the end-all-be-all. Again, you gotta KNOW the TSBD Building. *** Hint - How about the Dumbwaiter? ***
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Well, Martin (Fox, not Sock Guy), welcome to the club. As you can see, you are in a wonderland of folks who seem to have difficulty grasping the point you are making or staying on topic for more than two posts.
As I understood it, your premise ("for the sake of argument," as we lawyers say) is that Oswald was not the shooter. If this were true, we are faced with the difficulty (among many others) of how the actual shooter exited the TSBD.
For the sake of argument - even though I think Oswald was the actual shooter - my guess would be that actual shooter would have been nicely dressed, passable as a visitor to one of the publishing companies, a detective or even a police officer, and would've simply blended in for a bit until he could've safely exited the TSBD. I wouldn't picture some "fleeing felon" scenario that would have drawn attention to him.
I don't think this really works, for all the reasons set forth in my own thread "Try thinking about the TSBD" (below), but this would be my best guess if there actually was a shooter other than Oswald inside the TSBD.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4230.0.html
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What about Exiting the TSBD via the UNLOCKED HUGE GATES that Directly Faced the Elm St Ext? Everybody is looking at the TSBD front door and directly above it at the Sniper's Nest. NOBODY is looking at the other end of the TSBD, down the Elm St Ext. The TSBD is constructed very strangely, as were the other buildings CONNECTED TO IT. On 11/22/63, the TSBD did Not look anything like it currently does. Probably done intentionally.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/qvSMz8TG/Fire-escape-on-Houston-Street.png) (https://postimg.cc/3kjHq0Wy)
Did the shooter sneak down the outside fire escape while everybody's eyes were on the fleeing motorcade?
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Well, it seems you not only assume he bought the bullets, but also that the rifle found at the TSBD was actually fired that day
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-3.html#expert
and that it was owned by Oswald.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#ownership
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https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-3.html#expert
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#ownership
EXPERT EXAMINATION OF RIFLE, CARTRIDGE CASES, AND BULLET FRAGMENTS
On the sixth floor of the Depository Building, the Dallas police found three spent cartridges and a rifle. A nearly whole bullet was discovered on the stretcher used to carry Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital. As described in the preceding section, five bullet fragments were found in the President's limousine. The cartridge cases, the nearly whole bullet and the bullet fragments were all subjected to firearms identification analysis by qualified experts. It was the unanimous opinion of the experts that the nearly whole bullet, the two largest. bullet fragments. and the three cartridge cases were definitely fired in the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository Building to the exclusion of all other weapons.
Nobody disputes that the bullet and fragments were fired by the MC rifle. There are, however, multiple problems with the story above.
First of all, it's an assumption that "a nearly whole bullet" (CE 399) was indeed found on Connally's stretcher. Arlon Specter introduced CE 399 into evidence during the testimony of Dr. Humes and he did so subject to later proof that this bullet was indeed found on Connally's stretcher. That "later proof" was never presented.
There is also no evidence that the bullet fragments allegedly found in the limousine were in fact recovered from the car. Before Frazier could get to the Secret Service garage to examine the limo, the crime scene (which is what it was) was disturbed and contaminated by two men who had no business to "examine" the car. No photos of the items in situ were made and Frazier was given the fragments and told they came from the limo.
And as far as the cartridge cases go, which ones are they talking about exactly. The ones Fritz picked up or the ones he threw down in the sniper's nest.
But be all that what its is, where is the proof that the rifle found at the TSBD was actually fired on 11/22/63 at 12:30?
OWNERSHIP AND POSSESSION OF ASSASSINATION WEAPON
Purchase of Rifle by Oswald
Shortly after the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building,1 agents of the FBI learned from retail outlets in Dallas that Crescent Firearms, Inc., of New York City, was a distributor of surplus Italian 6.5-millimeter military rifles.2 During the evening of November 22, 1963, a review of the records of Crescent Firearms revealed that the firm had shipped an Italian carbine, serial number C2766, to Klein's Sporting Goods Co., of Chicago, Ill.3 After searching their records from 10 p.m. to 4 a.m. the officers of Klein's discovered that a rifle bearing serial number C2766 had been shipped to one A. Hidell,
I'm not going to respond to this, because it basically comes down to one thing; an FBI expert testified with certainty (which experts normally never do *) that Oswald wrote the order form which is really the only potential direct link to Oswald. An internal document of Klein's with a handwritten number on it linked the MC rifle found at the TSBD to the Hidell order. But even if Oswald wrote the order form and it caused the internal document to be generated, there is no evidence whatsoever that proves that Oswald was the owner of the TSBD rifle and had still possession of it on 11/21/63. In fact, even if you consider the BY photo to be legit and the rifle Oswald is holding is actually the same one that was found at the TSBD, that still does not provide any evidence of ownership or the rifle being in Oswald's possession 8 months later. It's all assumption.
* Handwriting experts need originals of the questioned documents in order to, for example, determine the pressure applied when writing and to examine the flow of the ink. They also need certified original documents to compare the questioned handwriting with.
From the WC report;
Document examiners for the Treasury Department and the FBI testified unequivocally that the bold printing on the face of the mail-order coupon was in the handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald and that the writing on the envelope was also his. 5 Oswald's writing on these and other documents was identified by comparing the writing and printing on the documents in question with that appearing on documents known to have been written by Oswald, such as his letters, passport application, and endorsements of checks
What in the world does "documents known to have been written by Oswald" mean?
In a civil dispute many years ago, a signature on a contract and a cheque were denied by the other party. The judge ordered the opposite party to provide 10 specimen signatures to be written in front of the court so that there could be no question of the authenticity of the samples. In the JFK case the FBI expert was given documents that allegedly were written and signed by Oswald, but he had no way of telling if that was true or not. He could only assume they were "documents known to have been written by Oswald".
Are assumptions evidence, Tim?
Let's, for argument's sake, say that, with Oswald already dead, the need to wrap the case around him (possibly for fear of the consequences of a possible conspiracy) caused the comparison documents to be manipulated as well. Katzenbach's memo spelled it out clearly; "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial." The memo is clearly advocating a political course irrespective of the truth of the assassination. Add to this that all the evidence was to be buried at the National Archives for 75 years, so, what would be the risk if they (as in: the people who covered it up) used manipulated documents, who would be the wiser?
Try for once to go beyond the superficial, Tim!
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LN nuts quote the WCR like religious nuts quote the bible.
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What about that 8"-10" Blood Pool that Mal Couch gave WC Testimony about? If Couch could be relied on to testify about seeing a pipe in the 6th Floor sniper's window, his testimony regarding this Blood Pool should also be respected. And that Blood Pool is close enough to the TSBD to throw a rock from it and hit the building. There was definitely More than 1 person involved in the shooting of JFK. Oswald was never supposed to make it out of that 2nd Floor Lunchroom.
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LN nuts quote the WCR like religious nuts quote the bible.
Whereas you prefer the apocrypha.
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For the conspiracists it's always "the Warren Commission, the Warren Commission, the Warren Commission." For them it's always 1964, there's been nothing else. When we cite the HSCA or the Rockefeller Commission or the Church Committee or the news media investigations we get the same hand waving and excuses. Coverups and coverups and coverups.
Okay, so we'll just cite the HSCA. Will that be acceptable? Of course not.
Over these six plus decades we've had multiple generations of Americans in the government and out investigate this event. Directly and indirectly. Now all of the documents have been released. Everything is out there. And the Oswald cult like defenders respond with their faith based rejection of everything. Logic, facts, reason are all dismissed as speculation and conjecture.
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Do you know that the HSCA found, "...probable conspiracy" and 4 SHOTS being fired? Do you really wanna, ".... just cite the HSCA"? Are you now a Conspiracy convert?
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Do you know that the HSCA found, "...probable conspiracy" and 4 SHOTS being fired? Do you really wanna, ".... just cite the HSCA"? Are you now a Conspiracy convert?
Oh, thank you. That was sooooo predictable I was going to post it myself in reply to Steve, perhaps in a more ironic vein than you intended.
Remove the last-minute Dictabelt "evidence" from the equation, and the HSCA was pretty much the Warren Commission II with the exception of dubiously moving the head wound entry. You know that, so why do CTers keep repeating this canard as though it were significant?
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Do conspiracy believers really want to endorse the findings of the HSCA? Lone assassin believers largely will because the acoustic evidence they used for the "probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy" was wrong. Otherwise, it was pretty good; not perfect but good.
If we add this investigation to the Warren Commission Report, the Rockefeller Commission, the Church Committee, the news media investigations, the investigations by reporters like Hersh and Weiner, and the research by historians the only sensible conclusion supports the theory that it was one man - Oswald - with a rifle. The other claims are simply people using the assassination to express their grievances with the CIA or "deep state" or whatever monsters they have swirling in their heads.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12381242997/Keyhc0v616vkax5/hsca conclusion.JPG)
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Govt body finds, "probable Conspiracy" and 4 Shots Fired, and you do not find that as being "significant"? You guys continue going the smorgasbord route. Cherry picking. It's ALL you can do. And then there's the Blow-out wound in the BACK of JFK's head that was documented by the Parkland Hospital Dr's. You run away from that Evidence and then turn around and embrace the Bethesda Autopsy of a Stolen Body. This is the MO you have been forced to adopt.
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Govt body finds, "probable Conspiracy" and 4 Shots Fired, and you do not find that as being "significant"? You guys continue going the smorgasbord route. Cherry picking. It's ALL you can do. And then there's the Blow-out wound in the BACK of JFK's head that was documented by the Parkland Hospital Dr's. You run away from that Evidence and then turn around and embrace the Bethesda Autopsy of a Stolen Body. This is the MO you have been forced to adopt.
What is the cherry-picking? The HSCA was 98% the Warren Commission II. The HSCA at the last minute found a conspiracy solely on the basis of a dubious scientific analysis of a dubious Dictabelt recording. If the analysis on which the HSCA relied were not suspect, and if the source and interpretation of the Dictabelt recording were not still being debated today, the HSCA's finding would perhaps be of significance. In reality, not so much. Tink Thompson's most recent book was widely viewed as a disappointment by the CT community precisely because he placed so much emphasis on the Dictabelt. What CTers try to do is to suggest the HSCA reached fundamentally different conclusions from the WC. No, the HSCA report is like the WC report all over again, with the exception of an appendix tacked on at the end that is almost surely incorrect.
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I would challenge that "last minute" characterization. It took some time to do the testing inside Dealey Plaza and then go through that data. That "last minute" stuff is more LN Baloney.
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I would challenge that "last minute" characterization. It took some time to do the testing inside Dealey Plaza and then go through that data. That "last minute" stuff is more LN Baloney.
We could debate the "last minute" characterization, but the fact is that the HSCA had already prepared its draft final report finding that Oswald was the lone assassin. Perhaps "very late in its investigation" would make you happier.
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Went through this same thing with the ARRB. The funding/$$ runs out. Nothing screwy about that. You guys are all about the SCIENCE until it doesn't suit your fancy. Then you do your best to Trash it. Same playbook was thrown at the Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE that was used to find the SBT, "IS IMPOSSIBLE". Double Standards are your specialty. As SCIENCE advances, you're having to do this trashing of SCIENCE more and more. The jigs up!
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For the conspiracists it's always "the Warren Commission, the Warren Commission, the Warren Commission." For them it's always 1964, there's been nothing else. When we cite the HSCA or the Rockefeller Commission or the Church Committee or the news media investigations we get the same hand waving and excuses. Coverups and coverups and coverups.
Okay, so we'll just cite the HSCA. Will that be acceptable? Of course not.
Over these six plus decades we've had multiple generations of Americans in the government and out investigate this event. Directly and indirectly. Now all of the documents have been released. Everything is out there. And the Oswald cult like defenders respond with their faith based rejection of everything. Logic, facts, reason are all dismissed as speculation and conjecture.
How about you stop quoting scripture and pretending that it is "evidence" or that it is "logic, facts, and reason"?
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Oh, thank you. That was sooooo predictable I was going to post it myself in reply to Steve, perhaps in a more ironic vein than you intended.
Remove the last-minute Dictabelt "evidence" from the equation, and the HSCA was pretty much the Warren Commission II with the exception of dubiously moving the head wound entry. You know that, so why do CTers keep repeating this canard as though it were significant?
Remove the non-evidence and speculative, handwaving storytelling from both the WCR conclusions and the HSCA conclusions and you wind up with a giant nothing burger. So why do LN evangelists cite ANY of the conclusions as though they are significant?
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Remove the non-evidence and speculative, handwaving storytelling from both the WCR conclusions and the HSCA conclusions and you wind up with a giant nothing burger. So why do LN evangelists cite ANY of the conclusions as though they are significant?
Iacoletti,
How many evil, evil people do you figure were wittingly involved in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
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(https://i.vgy.me/RkicBb.gif)
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(https://i.vgy.me/RkicBb.gif)
Cognitive dissonance is a real itch, isn't it, John?
Rhymes with xxxxx.
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(https://i.vgy.me/RkicBb.gif)
Hilarious, the pot calling the kettle black!!
JohnM
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"Martin" from "Europe" still can't follow simple logic. If the evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AS IT DOES and THEN on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later AS IT DOES and the ONLY WAY for Oswald to have gotten from those two points is DOWN THE STAIRS that proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that Oswald went DOWN THE STAIRS. The best evidence that a thing could happen is that we can prove it DID happen. Martin is struggling with reality. The odds of an event occurring - no matter how long - becomes moot if it can be shown that it did in fact occur. Even if we accepted Martin's laughable false premise that it is unlikely that Oswald could have gotten down the stairs unnoticed because Martin somehow knows everyone's movements down to fractions of seconds based on their generalized description of events after it makes no difference to the conclusion. It's like telling someone holding the winning lottery ticket in their hands that the odds against them winning are so great that they couldn't have done it. And sticking to that even as they cash it in.
Martin wants to frame any discussion in the bizarre contrarian manner in which others have to account for every conceivable objection that he can dream up in his mind and eliminate to his subjective satisfaction any alternative as though a time machine existed. LOL. Any fact that Martin doesn't want to accept is subject to this same impossible standard of proof which is unreasonable to begin with while every alternative is entertained no matter how absurd with no proof whatsoever. Repeat endlessly. Dragging every thread down the same pointless rabbit hole.
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"Martin" from "Europe" still can't follow simple logic. If the evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AS IT DOES and THEN on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later AS IT DOES and the ONLY WAY for Oswald to have gotten from those two points is DOWN THE STAIRS that proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that Oswald went DOWN THE STAIRS. The best evidence that a thing could happen is that we can prove it DID happen. Martin is struggling with reality. The odds of an event occurring - no matter how long - becomes moot if it can be shown that it did in fact occur. Even if we accepted Martin's laughable false premise that it is unlikely that Oswald could have gotten down the stairs unnoticed because Martin somehow knows everyone's movements down to fractions of seconds based on their generalized description of events after it makes no difference to the conclusion. It's like telling someone holding the winning lottery ticket in their hands that the odds against them winning are so great that they couldn't have done it. And sticking to that even as they cash it in.
Martin wants to frame any discussion in the bizarre contrarian manner in which others have to account for every conceivable objection that he can dream up in his mind and eliminate to his subjective satisfaction any alternative as though a time machine existed. LOL. Any fact that Martin doesn't want to accept is subject to this same impossible standard of proof which is unreasonable to begin with while every alternative is entertained no matter how absurd with no proof whatsoever. Repeat endlessly. Dragging every thread down the same pointless rabbit hole.
If the evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AS IT DOES
Show me the actual evidence (not your assumptions) that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 and I will agree with you and shut up! Go on then...
and THEN on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later AS IT DOES
Sure, it does... Baker and Truly saw him there, within 90 seconds after the shots
and the ONLY WAY for Oswald to have gotten from those two points is DOWN THE STAIRS that proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that Oswald went DOWN THE STAIRS.
Only if and when you can prove that he was on the 6th floor to begin with? Can you?
The best evidence that a thing could happen is that we can prove it DID happen.
Well, prove it did happen!
The odds of an event occurring - no matter how long - becomes moot if it can be shown that it did in fact occur.
Agreed! No show it did in fact occur!
Even if we accepted Martin's laughable false premise that it is unlikely that Oswald could have gotten down the stairs unnoticed because Martin somehow knows everyone's movements down to fractions of seconds based on their generalized description of events after it makes no difference to the conclusion
That's not my premise! It's your strawman! A time trail has proven that he could have gotten down the stairs in the known time frame. It just hasn't proven that he could have gotten down the stairs unnoticed.
Martin wants to frame any discussion in the bizarre contrarian manner in which others have to account for every conceivable objection that he can dream up in his mind and eliminate to his subjective satisfaction any alternative as though a time machine existed. LOL.
Nope, that's just plain silly. Show me the evidence that conclusively places Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 and I have nothing left to object to. So, it's up to you... show me the evidence!
Any fact that Martin doesn't want to accept is subject to this same impossible standard of proof which is unreasonable to begin
Is it unreasonable to just ask for conclusive evidence?
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"Martin" from "Europe" still can't follow simple logic. If the evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AS IT DOES and THEN on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later AS IT DOES and the ONLY WAY for Oswald to have gotten from those two points is DOWN THE STAIRS that proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that Oswald went DOWN THE STAIRS. The best evidence that a thing could happen is that we can prove it DID happen. Martin is struggling with reality. The odds of an event occurring - no matter how long - becomes moot if it can be shown that it did in fact occur. Even if we accepted Martin's laughable false premise that it is unlikely that Oswald could have gotten down the stairs unnoticed because Martin somehow knows everyone's movements down to fractions of seconds based on their generalized description of events after it makes no difference to the conclusion. It's like telling someone holding the winning lottery ticket in their hands that the odds against them winning are so great that they couldn't have done it. And sticking to that even as they cash it in.
Martin wants to frame any discussion in the bizarre contrarian manner in which others have to account for every conceivable objection that he can dream up in his mind and eliminate to his subjective satisfaction any alternative as though a time machine existed. LOL. Any fact that Martin doesn't want to accept is subject to this same impossible standard of proof which is unreasonable to begin with while every alternative is entertained no matter how absurd with no proof whatsoever. Repeat endlessly. Dragging every thread down the same pointless rabbit hole.
It's pretty funny that 60+ years later that the CT's still haven't come up with a viable alternative to the rock solid evidence of the official version.
Oswald was a loon who ffs defected to Russia at the height of the cold war and when he wasn't accepted by Russia, Oswald slit his wrists, who the heck, besides someone who's verifiably insane, does that?
Oswald also attempted to assassinate General Walker, further proving he was a murderous nutcase!
But getting back to this problem;
Oswald's rifle with his prints was discovered on the same floor as eyewitnesses saw a man with a rifle.
What happened to the slender man seen on the 6th floor with a rifle, how did HE escape? -crickets-
Oswald's relatively fresh prints were discovered in the sniper's nest and most importantly Oswald's prints which were oriented down Elm street were left on the perfectly sized rifle rest box which was moved half way across the 6th floor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpPDBxZd/oswalds-prints-snipers-nest-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G26syGk0/oswalds-prints-snipers-nest-zpstmsa2vdj.jpg)
Adams story is full of holes, she said she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor, impossible if she left "immediately".
Styles later recalled that she was pretty sure that they went to the lift first and looking at the plan of the 4th floor, that makes perfect sense, because why go all the way to the rear of the building when the far closer elevator will take you down to the front of the building. And besides walking down multiple floors of stairs while wearing 3 inch heels wouldn't IMO be the first choice.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NL4XHvb/tsbd-4th-floor-plan.jpg)
Oswald's alibi where he says he had lunch with Junior never happened.
Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbt18N8B/Jarman-had-lunch-without-Oswald.jpg)
Oswald being on the move walking in a direction away from the stairs 90 seconds after the assassination while there is commotion and bedlam happening just outside, and just to get a coke is simply illogical! But Oswald coming down from the 6th floor and quickly hiding in the lunchroom after hearing Truly shout up the elevator shaft is perfectly logical.
After hours of interrogation, Oswald slipped up.
Mr. HOLMES. ... Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about,
How can you go downstairs when the commotion began when you are already on the first floor? When you don't start from the truth, liars always become unstuck.
Mr. FRITZ. ..... I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.
JohnM
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It's pretty funny that 60+ years later that the CT's still haven't come up with a viable alternative to the rock solid evidence of the official version.
Oswald was a loon who ffs defected to Russia at the height of the cold war and when he wasn't accepted by Russia, Oswald slit his wrists, who the heck, besides someone who's verifiably insane, does that?
Oswald also attempted to assassinate General Walker, further proving he was a murderous nutcase!
But getting back to this problem;
Oswald's rifle with his prints was discovered on the same floor as eyewitnesses saw a man with a rifle.
What happened to the slender man seen on the 6th floor with a rifle, how did HE escape? -crickets-
Oswald's relatively fresh prints were discovered in the sniper's nest and most importantly Oswald's prints which were oriented down Elm street were left on the perfectly sized rifle rest box which was moved half way across the 6th floor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpPDBxZd/oswalds-prints-snipers-nest-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G26syGk0/oswalds-prints-snipers-nest-zpstmsa2vdj.jpg)
Adams story is full of holes, she said she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor, impossible if she left "immediately".
Styles later recalled that she was pretty sure that they went to the lift first and looking at the plan of the 4th floor, that makes perfect sense, because why go all the way to the rear of the building when the far closer elevator will take you down to the front of the building. And besides walking down multiple floors of stairs while wearing 3 inch heels wouldn't IMO be the first choice.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NL4XHvb/tsbd-4th-floor-plan.jpg)
Oswald's alibi where he says he had lunch with Junior never happened.
Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbt18N8B/Jarman-had-lunch-without-Oswald.jpg)
Oswald being on the move walking in a direction away from the stairs 90 seconds after the assassination while there is commotion and bedlam happening just outside, and just to get a coke is simply illogical! But Oswald coming down from the 6th floor and quickly hiding in the lunchroom after hearing Truly shout up the elevator shaft is perfectly logical.
After hours of interrogation, Oswald slipped up.
Mr. HOLMES. ... Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about,
How can you go downstairs when the commotion began when you are already on the first floor? When you don't start from the truth, liars always become unstuck.
Mr. FRITZ. ..... I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.
JohnM
Classic LN stuff. Cherry picking evidence and ignoring the rest. Comments designed to make you assume Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 and, of course, not a shred of hard conclusive evidence that he actually was.
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NONE of that mountain of stuff above puts Oswald firing shots out of the 6th Floor Sniper's Nest. NONE of it. I believe he was involved, but firing shots out of the window and then leaving his traceable rifle behind? Nope! And, I believe the Adams stated timeline is not correct based on the Lovelady and Shelly WC Q/A. I also believe the Officer Baker & Roy Truly timeline has been "fudged" pretty good too. Everybody keeps timing how long it would take a shooter to go from the 6th Floor to the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. I think it took Baker/Truly longer to even begin using the stairwell to get Up to the 2nd Floor. This gave a shooter much more time to go from the 6th Floor and all the way Down the stairwell to the basement level and then EXIT either via the Huge Gates, (YES they were OPEN), and onto the Elm St Ext, or simply walk straight through to the loading dock that led straight into the railroad yard. If you know the layout of the TSBD and the ATTACHED buildings, You know how easily this can be done. And there was easily enough time to do this. Clean as a whistle.
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There are certain facts that most can agree on:
1) Shots were fired at 12:30 from the 6th floor. That means that someone was on that floor at that moment.
2) Oswald's rifle was left on that floor and was used to fire the shots (some of the more fringe CTers might take issue with this but it appears conclusive even to many CTers). You don't even have to accept that, however, in this context.
3) The 6th floor shooter escaped that floor unnoticed regardless of any pedantic fraction of a second attempted reconstruction of witness movements in the building.
4) The only apparent way for anyone on the 6th floor to get off that floor after the shots were fired is - wait for it - DOWN THE STAIRS. The elevators were not in a position to be used.
5) No one was noticed going down the stairs.
6) Oswald was seen on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later.
All of this tells us that whoever fired the shots at 12:30 - whether Oswald or someone else - managed to escape unnoticed by going down the stairs. We know this is possible without engaging in a pedantic down to the second analysis of witness statements because the facts demonstrate it must have happened. The only quibble is whether the evidence puts Oswald on the 6th floor as the shooter. Not whether anyone could get down those stairs unnoticed. Someone did.
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There are certain facts that most can agree on:
1) Shots were fired at 12:30 from the 6th floor. That means that someone was on that floor at that moment.
2) Oswald's rifle was left on that floor and was used to fire the shots (some of the more fringe CTers might take issue with this but it appears conclusive even to many CTers). You don't even have to accept that, however, in this context.
3) The 6th floor shooter escaped that floor unnoticed regardless of any pedantic fraction of a second attempted reconstruction of witness movements in the building.
4) The only apparent way for anyone on the 6th floor to get off that floor after the shots were fired is - wait for it - DOWN THE STAIRS. The elevators were not in a position to be used.
5) No one was noticed going down the stairs.
6) Oswald was seen on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later.
All of this tells us that whoever fired the shots at 12:30 - whether Oswald or someone else - managed to escape unnoticed by going down the stairs. We know this is possible without engaging in a pedantic down to the second analysis of witness statements because the facts demonstrate it must have happened. The only quibble is whether the evidence puts Oswald on the 6th floor as the shooter. Not whether anyone could get down those stairs unnoticed. Someone did.
1) Shots were fired at 12:30 from the 6th floor. That means that someone was on that floor at that moment.
Really? Are you sure that everybody agrees with that? Or even just "most"?
2) Oswald's rifle was left on that floor and was used to fire the shots (some of the more fringe CTers might take issue with this but it appears conclusive even to many CTers). You don't even have to accept that, however, in this context.
There was a rifle left on the 6th floor, that much is true. And it may well be that it was used to fire shots. There is, however, nothing conclusive about your claim that the rifle belonged to Oswald or that it was fired on 11/22/63.
3) The 6th floor shooter escaped that floor unnoticed regardless of any pedantic fraction of a second attempted reconstruction of witness movements in the building.
Well, it is certainly true that a 6th floor shooter (if he was there) did escape from that floor, but how that was done has never been explained or examined. The claim that the shooter went down the stairs directly after the shots is, if you think about, something rather stupid. Why would such a shooter risk running into people coming up on those narrow stairs? Sometimes the best strategy is to hide in plain sight. The 6th floor is big enough to hide for a while behind some boxes and reappear, pretending to be law enforcement officer searching like the others, when a bunch of people have arrived on the 6th floor. It's easy to slip away in chaos. Just a theory, mind you, but then the same goes for the shooter running down the stairs just after the shots. Obviously, you are free to dismiss this possibility, but if you do, please tell us why you dismiss it?
4) The only apparent way for anyone on the 6th floor to get off that floor after the shots were fired is - wait for it - DOWN THE STAIRS. The elevators were not in a position to be used.
True... the question that you need to answer is when did that person (shooter if you like) actually go down the stairs?
5) No one was noticed going down the stairs.
Exactly my point. People had other things to do to notice just one more guy going up or down the stairs.
6) Oswald was seen on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later.
True, if Truly and Baker are to be believed, but he could have been there for some time. Carolyn Arnold said she saw him there minutes prior to the assassination. But I'm sure you feel she lied, right?
All of this tells us that whoever fired the shots at 12:30 - whether Oswald or someone else - managed to escape unnoticed by going down the stairs. We know this is possible without engaging in a pedantic down to the second analysis of witness statements because the facts demonstrate it must have happened. The only quibble is whether the evidence puts Oswald on the 6th floor as the shooter. Not whether anyone could get down those stairs unnoticed. Someone did.
So, you just want us to assume that "someone" was in fact Oswald? Just as I thought, no actual evidence, just assumptions!
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(3) You can hear people on the stairwell. That stairwell was old and creaky. A possible shooter coming down that stairwell could exit the stairwell at the moment he heard someone else on it below him. That stairwell is the quickest way DOWN to the basement and then either walking out the Huge Gates into the Elm St Ext or simply walking straight on through to the loading dock and then out into the railroad yard. Considering that ALL the buildings that previously stretched down the Elm St Ext have been torn down, most people are Not aware that ALL of those buildings and the TSBD were Connected. You could easily walk from one building to the other.
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"Martin" from "Europe" still can't follow simple logic. If the evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AS IT DOES
Except it doesn't. Flawed premises lead to invalid conclusions.
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It's pretty funny that 60+ years later that the CT's still haven't come up with a viable alternative to the rock solid evidence of the official version.
"Rock solid". LOL.
Oswald was a loon who ffs defected to Russia at the height of the cold war and when he wasn't accepted by Russia, Oswald slit his wrists, who the heck, besides someone who's verifiably insane, does that?
Cool insult, bro. What kind of verifiably insane person masquerades as a 229-year-old "eccentric" member of the British parliament?
Oswald also attempted to assassinate General Walker, further proving he was a murderous nutcase!
LOL.
Oswald's rifle with his prints was discovered on the same floor as eyewitnesses saw a man with a rifle.
What happened to the slender man seen on the 6th floor with a rifle, how did HE escape? -crickets-
Oswald's relatively fresh prints were discovered in the sniper's nest and most importantly Oswald's prints which were oriented down Elm street were left on the perfectly sized rifle rest box which was moved half way across the 6th floor.
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
"fresh prints". LOL.
"oriented down Elm street". LOL.
"perfectly sized rifle rest". LOL.
"moved half way across the 6th floor". LOL.
Only Oswald is required to be on the second floor within 75-90 seconds of the shots without being seen or heard by any of the 12-14 witnesses along the way. That doesn't apply to any other slender man, bald-spotted man, man with a brown sport coat, etc.
Oswald being on the move walking in a direction away from the stairs 90 seconds after the assassination while there is commotion and bedlam happening just outside, and just to get a coke is simply illogical! But Oswald coming down from the 6th floor and quickly hiding in the lunchroom after hearing Truly shout up the elevator shaft is perfectly logical.
"logic". LOL.
After hours of interrogation, Oswald slipped up.
Mr. HOLMES. ... Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about,
Holmes. LOL.
"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke."
Oswald's alibi where he says he had lunch with Junior never happened.
Bookhout attended the same interrogation session and said Oswald said he ate lunch alone and saw Norman and Jarman. And as it turned out, Norman and Jarman were walking together right past the domino room just minutes before the assassination.
But in the usual "Mytton" fashion, you offer up selective rhetoric.
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A shooter is not going to linger on the 6th floor after assassinating the president and "hide in plain sight" knowing the entire law enforcement establishment is descending on the building in moments. That is laughable. His only chance is to escape quickly before the building is locked down and the ONLY way to do so is down the stairs. Multiple witnesses place a shooter on the 6th floor either by seeing the rifle pointing out the window or the folks in the floor below hearing it fired directly above their heads. There is zero doubt that someone was on the 6th floor with a rifle at 12:30 and went down the stairs unnoticed in the moments after the assassination. The facts demonstrate not only that it was possible to get down the stairs unnoticed but that is actually what must have happened.
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The TSBD was NEVER Secure. Those HUGE GATES were Not Secure. You can see they are Open/Ajar on the "MARTIN FILM" as Amos Euins sped down the Elm Ext on the back of DPD Officer Harkness 3 Wheel Motorcycle. Those Huge Gates are still OPEN/Ajar when the "3 TRAMPS PHOTO" was snapped as the Tramps were escorted by DPD down the Elm Ext. The Martin footage showing Euins is roughly 5 minutes following the Kill Shot. The 3 TRAMPS PHOTO was snapped somewhere between 1:45-2:00 hrs After the Kill Shot. The TSBD was Continually Not Secure from the Kill Shot up to roughly 2 hrs later.
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A shooter is not going to linger on the 6th floor after assassinating the president and "hide in plain sight" knowing the entire law enforcement establishment is descending on the building in moments. That is laughable. His only chance is to escape quickly before the building is locked down and the ONLY way to do so is down the stairs. Multiple witnesses place a shooter on the 6th floor either by seeing the rifle pointing out the window or the folks in the floor below hearing it fired directly above their heads. There is zero doubt that someone was on the 6th floor with a rifle at 12:30 and went down the stairs unnoticed in the moments after the assassination. The facts demonstrate not only that it was possible to get down the stairs unnoticed but that is actually what must have happened.
Predictably, we get yet another mind-reading "common sense" argument from "Richard" rather than evidence.
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Bookhout attended the same interrogation session and said Oswald said he ate lunch alone and saw Norman and Jarman. And as it turned out, Norman and Jarman were walking together right past the domino room just minutes before the assassination.
Oops;
Bookout missed at least an hour and Oswald was telling one provable lie after another.
Mr. BOOKHOUT - I believe he was taken directly into Captain Fritz' office and the interview started at that time with Captain Fritz, and two homicide officers.
Mr. STERN - Were you present?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - I was not in the office at that time. I called our office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was starting and shortly thereafter Mr. Shanklin, our SAC called back and said the Bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that Hosty, James P. Hosty, I believe was ,to sit in on the interview, and I was to also be present with Hosty. So, at that time, we asked Captain Fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately 3:15 p.m.
Norman and Jarman were walking together right past the domino room just minutes before the assassination.
WOW, talking about "selective rhetoric", no where does this Bookout report say that Oswald saw Junior and the short fellow "just minutes before the assassination" but it does say that they walked through the room and we know for a fact that they didn't walk through the Domino room! Another Oswald fabrication. Oswald had no alibi because Oswald was on the 6th floor with Oswald's rifle assassinating the President!
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvmN3G09/FBI-report-Oswald-interrogation-lunch.jpg)
Oswald tells U.S. Secret Service Kelley that he ate lunch with two coloured boys. "Selective rhetoric" indeed! LOL This is why you can never trust a devout Conspiracy Theorist because they never tell the WHOLE story and just pick and choose whatever evidence fits their worldview.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhhZ2nMs/SS-report-Oswald-interrogation-lunch-Kelley-a.jpg)
That's why it's so easy to be a CT because their fall back of everyone lied except who the CT's say, said the truth, fits every Conspiracy scenario. Whereas LNers are just so damn well honest and take the evidence as it comes and analyse it with pinpoint critical thinking skills.
JohnM
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Oops;
Bookout missed at least an hour and Oswald was telling one provable lie after another.
Mr. BOOKHOUT - I believe he was taken directly into Captain Fritz' office and the interview started at that time with Captain Fritz, and two homicide officers.
Mr. STERN - Were you present?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - I was not in the office at that time. I called our office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was starting and shortly thereafter Mr. Shanklin, our SAC called back and said the Bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that Hosty, James P. Hosty, I believe was ,to sit in on the interview, and I was to also be present with Hosty. So, at that time, we asked Captain Fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately 3:15 p.m.
WOW, talking about "selective rhetoric", no where does this Bookout report say that Oswald saw Junior and the short fellow "just minutes before the assassination" but it does say that they walked through the room and we know for a fact that they didn't walk through the Domino room! Another Oswald fabrication. Oswald had no alibi because Oswald was on the 6th floor with Oswald's rifle assassinating the President!
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvmN3G09/FBI-report-Oswald-interrogation-lunch.jpg)
Oswald tells U.S. Secret Service Kelley that he ate lunch with two coloured boys. "Selective rhetoric" indeed! LOL This is why you can never trust a devout Conspiracy Theorist because they never tell the WHOLE story and just pick and choose whatever evidence fits their worldview.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhhZ2nMs/SS-report-Oswald-interrogation-lunch-Kelley-a.jpg)
That's why it's so easy to be a CT because their fall back of everyone lied except who the CT's say, said the truth, fits every Conspiracy scenario. Whereas LNers are just so damn well honest and take the evidence as it comes and analyse it with pinpoint critical thinking skills.
JohnM
Why do you keep claiming that Oswald lied about anything, when all you have are non verbatim reports, written days later from memory and vague notes?
Even the reports conflict on key points with each other. He either said he "had eaten lunch in the lunch room" and "saw to Negro employees walking through the room" or he said he "ate his lunch with the colored boys".
Both can't be true, so which one is it?
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Why do you keep claiming that Oswald lied about anything, when all you have are non verbatim reports, written days later from memory and vague notes?
Even the reports conflict on key points with each other. He either said he "had eaten lunch in the lunch room" and "saw to Negro employees walking through the room" or he said he "ate his lunch with the colored boys".
Both can't be true, so which one is it?
Both can't be true, so which one is it?
You are always thinking in extremes, and of course there is two ways of looking at everything, it doesn't matter how thin my pancakes are, there is always two sides.
Now, even though Oswald clearly lied, he says ate alone but in the same room he was with Junior and Norman therefore Oswald ate lunch with the two negro men, it doesn't even mean that they were sitting together, for instance I was at a film premier and in the same theatre was the movie star who appeared in the movie, so is it wrong of me to say I saw the movie with the movie star? Of course not!
Another problem for Oswald's alibi is that he assumed that even though Junior and Norman were friends, on this particular day they didn't eat together in the Domino room! Ouch!
BTW how would the interrogators know at this stage to make up a story that Junior and Norman were even friends who hung out together, as seen by the two negro men arriving together at the fifth floor windows directly below Oswald with Oswald's rifle? See how intelligent deductive reasoning beats CT's who make dumbass assumptions!
JohnM
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I believe there is an issue with the "Lunch Room" and the "Domino Room". I think when someone says "Lunch Room", that is Not the same room as the "Domino Room". Have you ever looked at the photos of the Domino Room? That "room" with that couch and a table jammed inside in it, is not much larger than a Phone Booth. And Nobody "walks through" the Domino Room. It's "1 way in and 1 way out". There was Not even a sink or Pop/Vending machines inside the "Domino Room". What alleged "Lunch Room" does Not have a sink in it? This is why Oswald had to buy his Pop/Coke from inside the 2nd Floor Lunch Room.
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You are always thinking in extremes, and of course there is two ways of looking at everything, it doesn't matter how thin my pancakes are, there is always two sides.
Now, even though Oswald clearly lied, he says ate alone but in the same room he was with Junior and Norman therefore Oswald ate lunch with the two negro men, it doesn't even mean that they were sitting together, for instance I was at a film premier and in the same theatre was the movie star who appeared in the movie, so is it wrong of me to say I saw the movie with the movie star? Of course not!
Another problem for Oswald's alibi is that he assumed that even though Junior and Norman were friends, on this particular day they didn't eat together in the Domino room! Ouch!
BTW how would the interrogators know at this stage to make up a story that Junior and Norman were even friends who hung out together, as seen by the two negro men arriving together at the fifth floor windows directly below Oswald with Oswald's rifle? See how intelligent deductive reasoning beats CT's who make dumbass assumptions!
JohnM
You are always thinking in extremes, and of course there is two ways of looking at everything, it doesn't matter how thin my pancakes are, there is always two sides.
So, why are you always looking at just one side?
And no, there are no two ways of looking at everything, whatever that means. Oswald either said something or he didn't.
Now, even though Oswald clearly lied, he says ate alone but in the same room he was with Junior and Norman therefore Oswald ate lunch with the two negro men, it doesn't even mean that they were sitting together,
Not only are you all over the place, as per usual, but you are also missing the point completely. If two reports by Oswald's interrogators say something different it means that neither report is reliable.
Another problem for Oswald's alibi is that he assumed that even though Junior and Norman were friends, on this particular day they didn't eat together in the Domino room! Ouch!
Where does it say that Oswald assumed that?
BTW how would the interrogators know at this stage to make up a story that Junior and Norman were even friends who hung out together,
Why would the interrogators have to know anything about Junior and Norman? We know for a fact that they entered the TSBD at the backdoor and made their way to the elevators just minutes before the shots were fired.
as seen by the two negro men arriving together at the fifth floor windows directly below Oswald with Oswald's rifle?
How in the world could somebody on the 6th floor in the sniper's nest see two negro men arriving at the 5th floor window?
See how intelligent deductive reasoning beats CT's who make dumbass assumptions!
This is what you call "intelligent deductive reasoning"? Wow, that just made my day. Could you be even more hilarious?
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I believe there is an issue with the "Lunch Room" and the "Domino Room". I think when someone says "Lunch Room", that is Not the same room as the "Domino Room". Have you ever looked at the photos of the Domino Room? That "room" with that couch and a table jammed inside in it, is not much larger than a Phone Booth. And Nobody "walks through" the Domino Room. It's "1 way in and 1 way out". There was Not even a sink or Pop/Vending machines inside the "Domino Room". What alleged "Lunch Room" does Not have a sink in it? This is why Oswald had to buy his Pop/Coke from inside the 2nd Floor Lunch Room.
Storing,
Why did Oswald "go up" to the second floor (right when JFK and Jackie were passing by the TSBD!!!) to buy a COKE when the machine with his favorite soft drink, DR. PEPPER, was on the first floor?
Hmm?
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Where on the 1st FLOOR is there a machine with Dr Pepper?
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You are always thinking in extremes, and of course there is two ways of looking at everything, it doesn't matter how thin my pancakes are, there is always two sides.
So, why are you always looking at just one side?
And no, there are no two ways of looking at everything, whatever that means. Oswald either said something or he didn't.
Now, even though Oswald clearly lied, he says ate alone but in the same room he was with Junior and Norman therefore Oswald ate lunch with the two negro men, it doesn't even mean that they were sitting together,
Not only are you all over the place, as per usual, but you are also missing the point completely. If two reports by Oswald's interrogators say something different it means that neither report is reliable.
As I clearly pointed out both reports are true, therefore totally reliable.
Why would they have to or even need to fabricate some narrative where at the time they wouldn't have a clue about the social dynamics within the Depository?
Oswald's false alibi said he ate alone and that there were two men with him and that's why Kelley and Bookout's reports NEVER contradicted each other! You keep looking for flaws that don't exist and then you make up some BS self serving narrative. BTW, Oswald's assumption that the two men had lunch together in the Domino Room was proven false, that what happens when you make assumptions you make an ass of yourself! LOL!
Don't take it personally but you simply lack deductive reasoning skills, but thanks for your participation.
JohnM
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Where on the 1st FLOOR is there a machine with Dr Pepper?
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him eating lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx0Ym9P9/Dr-Pepper-machine-first-floor-depository.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwrCBYc6/Dr-Pepper-machine-vintage.jpg)
JohnM
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John - Thanks for posting that photo. I had Not seen it previously. You do realize this is within a stone's throw of the Huge Gates? Down to the basement and Out the Huge Gates?
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John - Thanks for posting that photo. I had Not seen it previously. You do realize this is within a stone's throw of the Huge Gates? Down to the basement and Out the Huge Gates?
Yes, Oswald could have escaped through the open HUGE gates, because if he went out the main front door he could have been seen and no employee recalls seeing Oswald, going out the back would have crossed Oswald's mind but he did just see a Policeman who came up the stairs which were next to the rear doors.
BTW how does the basement connect to the HUGE gates?
Here is the HUGE gates that appeared to be open from just before the assassination till well after. The three tramps photo could show the gates closed with a long chain that prevented them opening anymore but this seems unlikely?
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7sGv4G6/Towner-film-gates.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4bQH9Kj/Couch-film-Gates.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yY13BkNT/3-tramps-jfk.jpg)
JohnM
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John - Thanks for posting that photo [of the Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor]. I had not seen it previously. You do realize this is within a stone's throw of the Huge Gates? Down to the basement and Out the Huge Gates?
Storing,
1) Point being?
2) Didn't Oswald say he was eating his lunch in the first-floor Domino Room when the motorcade was passing by and that he had gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a Coke when Baker and Truly encountered him there?
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As I clearly pointed out both reports are true, therefore totally reliable.
Why would they have to or even need to fabricate some narrative where at the time they wouldn't have a clue about the social dynamics within the Depository?
Oswald's false alibi said he ate alone and that there were two men with him and that's why Kelley and Bookout's reports NEVER contradicted each other! You keep looking for flaws that don't exist and then you make up some BS self serving narrative. BTW, Oswald's assumption that the two men had lunch together in the Domino Room was proven false, that what happens when you make assumptions you make an ass of yourself! LOL!
Don't take it personally but you simply lack deductive reasoning skills, but thanks for your participation.
JohnM
As I clearly pointed out both reports are true, therefore totally reliable.
Hilarious and utterly dishonest. Oswald either ate with the colored boys or he had eaten alone and saw two Negro employees walking through the room.
Why would they have to or even need to fabricate some narrative where at the time they wouldn't have a clue about the social dynamics within the Depository?
What in the world are you talking about? You're missing the point yet again. Oswald clearly made some kind of comment about the Domino room and the two negros, which was subsequently misrepresented in the reports.
Oswald's false alibi said he ate alone and that there were two men with him and that's why Kelley and Bookout's reports NEVER contradicted each other!
First of all, you are making a bogus claim without actually knowing what Oswald really told the interrogators.
And secondly, if you don't see a contradiction between (1) eating with the two men and (2) seeing the two men walking through the room, then there isn't much I can do except leave you be in your delusional world.
You keep looking for flaws that don't exist and then you make up some BS self serving narrative.
LOL... OK, I'll play. What BS self serving narrative have I made up? Be precise!
BTW, Oswald's assumption that the two men had lunch together in the Domino Room was proven false, that what happens when you make assumptions you make an ass of yourself! LOL!
The only one making assumptions is you. You simply do not know that Oswald assumed Junior and Norman would be in the Domino Room.
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John - With respect to the Huge Gates being connected to the basement, look at the 3 TRAMPS PHOTO. The Tramps feet are the same level as the floor of the Brick Bld behind them, and the Floor of the loading Dock next to that Brick Bld. These 3, the Huge Gates, the Brick Bld, and the Loading Dock are ALL at the same level. Yet, you have to Walk UP Steps in order to enter the TSBD. Yet that is labeled the TSBD 1st Floor. Even the Very BOTTOM of the TSDB Windows which face the Elm Ext and lead right up to the Huge Gates are well above the FOOT Level/Ground Level of The 3 Tramps as we see on that photo. The floor of the TSBD 1st FLOOR is actually much higher/ well Above the floor of the Huge Gates, Brick Bld, and the Loading Dock. The TSBD is not built like it looks from the outside. All floors including the basement are Not entirely level. I see it as kinda like having a step-down living room. That living room would be on the 1st floor, but so would the kitchen which is higher. They are both on the 1st floor but do Not sit at the same Level. People that have lived in Multi LEVEL Houses know what I mean. These type houses can be built both "Multi Level" and Multi Story. Meaning there can be More than 1 level within an entire Story. This is the case with the TSBD. Just look at the floor of the Huge Gates in the 3 Tramp Photo and then compare that to the Floor of the TSBD 1st Floor AFTER CLIMBING UP The Steps. If you look at a schematic of the TSBD 1st Floor, just around the corner from that Dr Pepper Machine is another stairwell DOWN to the basement. Probably a very short stairwell. With Lovelady and Shelly giving WC Testimony of walking through the loading dock and continuing to walk into the TSBD, that stairwell connects to the Basement/Huge Gates. I do Not swear by Oswald using those Huge Gates. Any shooter on the 6th floor could easily plant the rifle, descend the stairwell, and just walk out those Huge Gates. A 6th floor shooter could easily be on and off the stairwell before Truly and Baker enter that same stairwell. Very Quick, Very Easy.
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Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him eating lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx0Ym9P9/Dr-Pepper-machine-first-floor-depository.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwrCBYc6/Dr-Pepper-machine-vintage.jpg)
JohnM
Not to change the subject John, but does anyone know what happened to the vending machines? Here is the original candy vending machine and a similar machine restored.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49618/m1/1/high_res/)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f8/f1/ed/f8f1ed9d0037aa62a17fe0fe984467bd.jpg)
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Not to change the subject John, but does anyone know what happened to the vending machines? Here is the original candy vending machine and a similar machine restored.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49618/m1/1/high_res/)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f8/f1/ed/f8f1ed9d0037aa62a17fe0fe984467bd.jpg)
Hey Jarrett, nice find and especially with the comparison to the restored machine. Thumb1:
This is part of the reason why this subject can be so interesting, it's a slice of time that's well worth investigating.
But unfortunately I don't know where those machines are today, I think the owner of the building grabbed the windows from the 6th floor, so perhaps he has the drink/candy machines or a keen collector?
BTW, thanks to your modern photo, I never realized that the top section of the candy machine was big mirror and that the mirror in the TSBD candy machine was reflecting the shelves and the coke machine. Interesting!
JohnM
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A TSBD 6th floor SE window conspirator shooter could have used the passenger elevator if he was able to get into the elevator shaft from a vent on the 6th floor.
But how long the shooter must wait on top of the passenger elevator cab before he climbs down into it is the question. And the power went out coincidentally too, so it’s uncertain how viable this scenario is.
The MC rifle could be pre planted , but what is the reason to add this complication? Does the conspirator have a personal vendetta towards Oswald?
How the MC rifle could be post planted on the 6th floor by 1:20 pm is even more of a challenging problem, but maybe a quantum computer AI that can figure it out.
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A TSBD 6th floor SE window conspirator shooter could have used the passenger elevator if he was able to get into the elevator shaft from a vent on the 6th floor.
But how long the shooter must wait on top of the passenger elevator cab before he climbs down into it is the question. And the power went out coincidentally too, so it’s uncertain how viable this scenario is.
The MC rifle could be pre planted , but what is the reason to add this complication? Does the conspirator have a personal vendetta towards Oswald?
How the MC rifle could be post planted on the 6th floor by 1:20 pm is even more of a challenging problem, but maybe a quantum computer AI that can figure it out.
I don't think the power went out, the lights were on in the building as seen in the Powell/Dillard photos and the telephone lights went out because no one was calling out but people still could have been calling in, so that is a bit of a mystery? And as far as the elevators not working I reckon someone specifically turned them off.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.
---------------------------------------------
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.
Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?
Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.
JohnM
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A TSBD 6th floor SE window conspirator shooter could have used the passenger elevator if he was able to get into the elevator shaft from a vent on the 6th floor.
But how long the shooter must wait on top of the passenger elevator cab before he climbs down into it is the question. And the power went out coincidentally too, so it’s uncertain how viable this scenario is.
The MC rifle could be pre planted , but what is the reason to add this complication? Does the conspirator have a personal vendetta towards Oswald?
How the MC rifle could be post planted on the 6th floor by 1:20 pm is even more of a challenging problem, but maybe a quantum computer AI that can figure it out.
My route through the Huge Gates is the most plausible avenue of escape. Straight Down the stairwell and out the Huge Gates, which we know are open due to the Martin Film showing them Open when Amos Euins is going down the Elm Ext on the back of the Harkness DPD 3 Wheel motorcycle. (5-6 minutes after the Kill Shot). People want to complicate the shooter(s) escape route, but it really is very simple.
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My route through the Huge Gates is the most plausible avenue of escape. Straight Down the stairwell and out the Huge Gates, which we know are open due to the Martin Film showing them Open when Amos Euins is going down the Elm Ext on the back of the Harkness DPD 3 Wheel motorcycle. (5-6 minutes after the Kill Shot). People want to complicate the shooter(s) escape route, but it really is very simple.
Storing,
Why did Oswald go upstairs to get a Coke right when JFK and Jackie were passing by the TSBD?
If he was so terrible thirsty that he just couldn't wait, why didn't he get a bottle of his favorite soft drink, Dr. Pepper, from the machine on the first floor, instead?
Hmm?
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Storing,
Why did Oswald go upstairs to get a Coke right when JFK and Jackie were passing by the TSBD?
If he was so terrible thirsty that he just couldn't wait, why didn't he get a bottle of his favorite soft drink, Dr. Pepper, from the machine on the first floor, instead?
Hmm?
In my opinion Oswald's job was to set up the sniper's nest. His prints would be found on the boxes inside the sniper's nest, but order filling/handling boxes with books inside them was his job. Easily explaining his prints being on those boxes. After setting up the sniper's nest, he was instructed to establish his alibi by being inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. That's exactly where Baker and Truly found him.
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In my opinion Oswald's job was to set up the sniper's nest. His prints would be found on the boxes inside the sniper's nest, but order filling/handling boxes with books inside them was his job. Easily explaining his prints being on those boxes. After setting up the sniper's nest, he was instructed to establish his alibi by being inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. That's exactly where Baker and Truly found him.
Storing,
How many evil, evil, evil "Deep State" guys and gals do you figure were involved with the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
Was Oswald a knowing martyr for "the cause," or was he duped?
If the latter, under what pretense?
A government sanctioned "test" of the Secret Service or some-such thing?
Was he aware that JFK would be "hit"?
Gasp . . . was he a CIA or FBI agent who had penetrated something really, really evil?
Wouldn't it have easier for him to establish his alibi in the second-floor lunchroom if he'd been sitting there eating his crummy cheese sandwich and apple if-and-when someone barged in on him after the shooting? Heck, he could have even gotten his favorite sodie pop -- Dr. Pepper -- from the first-floor Dr. Pepper machine on his way up!
OMG . . . Did he WANT to be seen by the police through the window in the "vestibule" door?
Seein' as how you're a seventy-something MAGAT, you probably hated Communist/Socialist JFK, right?
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In my opinion Oswald's job was to set up the sniper's nest. His prints would be found on the boxes inside the sniper's nest, but order filling/handling boxes with books inside them was his job. Easily explaining his prints being on those boxes. After setting up the sniper's nest, he was instructed to establish his alibi by being inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. That's exactly where Baker and Truly found him.
In my opinion Oswald's job was to set up the sniper's nest.
First of all I appreciate that you are trying to create a narrative because most CT's are too gutless to explain their beliefs, because most likely they know that any alternative to the official version ultimately never makes sense.
Oswald was nobody's lapdog, he was arrogant and fiercely independent, I can't imagine a scenario where some conspirators could get Oswald to construct a sniper's nest for someone else to take shots from, even if Oswald was told that these sniper's were just taking pot shots, how stupid do we have to believe that Oswald was? But if Oswald built the sniper's nest for himself then that is perfectly logical and fits Oswald's psychological profile.
After setting up the sniper's nest, he was instructed to establish his alibi by being inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom.
This old chestnut, why have Oswald be in a space where people frequent? If Oswald was seen in the lunchroom as the shots were fired, he would have a great alibi but that's obviously not the plan. Wouldn't the plan be planting Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor so Oswald would clearly be linked to the assassination, that's kind of a no brainer.
That's exactly where Baker and Truly found him.
Well not exactly, Oswald wasn't seated within the 2nd floor lunchroom but was on foot entering the second floor lunchroom. And again the official narrative makes more sense, Oswald coming down from the 6th floor quickly ducked into the lunchroom after he heard Truly shout up the elevator shaft.
JohnM
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JOHN - (1) Oswald was a Marine. He knew how to follow orders and that it takes several bricks working in concert to construct a wall. His constructing the sniper's nest would follow this military thought process.
(2) If you're gonna have a "patsy", (rifle stolen/ fired/, planted), you need to know EXACTLY where the Patsy is when everything goes down. Oswald following orders and being inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom achieves this.
(3) Oswald bought a Coke inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. Very natural for him to do this. He did Not have to be chained to a table inside that Lunchroom.
(4) I do Not buy the Oswald leaving the stairwell and then running into the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. Do you know that as you exit the 2nd Floor Stairwell, to your Immediate (R) is a window? Directly Underneath that window is the ROOF that runs directly Above The HUGE GATES? It would be quicker/easier to go out that window onto the Roof of the Huge Gates vs fleeing into the Lunchroom. There is film footage of a suited man Entering this same window from that same roof top. I do Not know who shot this film or how long after the kill shot it was shot.
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Bookout missed at least an hour
Irrelevant, since he was there when they were discussing lunch and the two negro coworkers.
and Oswald was telling one provable lie after another.
LOL. Something isn't a "provable lie" merely because YOU believe something else is true.
WOW, talking about "selective rhetoric", no where does this Bookout report say that Oswald saw Junior and the short fellow "just minutes before the assassination"
No, but that is when Norman and Jarman walked through the shipping area. Which is what I said.
but it does say that they walked through the room and we know for a fact that they didn't walk through the Domino room!
Bookhout didn't say "Domino room" either.
Another Oswald fabrication. Oswald had no alibi because Oswald was on the 6th floor with Oswald's rifle assassinating the President!
Cool story, bro.
Oswald tells U.S. Secret Service Kelley that he ate lunch with two coloured boys.
They didn't interrogate Oswald separately. They all are reporting on the same interrogation. You don't know which version (if any) is accurate.
"Selective rhetoric" indeed! LOL This is why you can never trust a devout Conspiracy Theorist because they never tell the WHOLE story and just pick and choose whatever evidence fits their worldview.
Hilarious, coming from the guy who cherry-picked "having lunch with" and didn't tell the whole story.
That's why it's so easy to be a CT because their fall back of everyone lied except who the CT's say, said the truth, fits every Conspiracy scenario.
Yet another "Mytton" strawman. Nobody said "everyone lied". You are the one claiming "provable lies" without any actual proof.
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Now, even though Oswald clearly lied, he says ate alone but in the same room he was with Junior and Norman therefore Oswald ate lunch with the two negro men, it doesn't even mean that they were sitting together, for instance I was at a film premier and in the same theatre was the movie star who appeared in the movie, so is it wrong of me to say I saw the movie with the movie star? Of course not!
Nice try, but nobody said "in the same room".
Another problem for Oswald's alibi is that he assumed that even though Junior and Norman were friends, on this particular day they didn't eat together in the Domino room! Ouch!
Nice try, but nobody said Junior and Norman ate together.
BTW how would the interrogators know at this stage to make up a story that Junior and Norman were even friends who hung out together, as seen by the two negro men arriving together at the fifth floor windows directly below Oswald with Oswald's rifle? See how intelligent deductive reasoning beats CT's who make dumbass assumptions!
Who said they did? Yet another "Mytton" strawman.
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My route through the Huge Gates is the most plausible avenue of escape. Straight Down the stairwell and out the Huge Gates, which we know are open due to the Martin Film showing them Open when Amos Euins is going down the Elm Ext on the back of the Harkness DPD 3 Wheel motorcycle. (5-6 minutes after the Kill Shot). People want to complicate the shooter(s) escape route, but it really is very simple.
These overhead doors on the west side were open as well.
(https://i.vgy.me/f5pvQ9.png)
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IACOLETTI - Thanks for pointing out those TSBD Overhead Doors. Those overhead doors on the TSBD West Side lead directly into that driveway/space that sits Behind the Huge Gates. Where this gets a little cloudy is that the Floor Level of the TSBD 1st Floor is Higher than the floor level of the driveway behind the Huge Gates. You can see this in the 3 Tramps Photo. The feet of the 3 Tramps and the ground behind the Huge Gates is several feet Lower than the Floor of the TSBD 1st Floor. I don't know if there were Steps/Stairs leading from the driveway directly UP INTO the TSBD or what. I also do Not know for certain that those Overhead Doors were Open at roughly 12:30. I do know that Lovelady gave WC Testimony that he opened at least 1 of those Overhead Doors 1st thing every morning. He did this so that Truly and the other TSBD Head Honchos could walk from the back loading dock where they parked, straight on through into the TSBD. But, if those Overhead Door(s) were Open, (which they probably were), you're correct. Oswald or anyone else could have walked down the stairwell, got off at the 1st Floor, walked through an overhead door, onto the driveway, and then walk straight out the OPEN HUGE GATES onto the Elm St Ext.
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No, but that is when Norman and Jarman walked through the shipping area. Which is what I said.
Slow down and think before you type.
Oswald's alibi was that at the time of the assassination, he was in the Lunch room.
The following report says that during the time Oswald claimed that he ate his lunch, two negro employees walked through the room.
And outside of the lunch room on the first floor was as you say was the shipping area, which as your terminology rightfully points out is not a room.
Norman and Junior got in the elevator and went straight from the first floor to the fifth floor, which rules out any encounter on the 2nd floor and the lunchroom there.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvmN3G09/FBI-report-Osw-ald-interrogation-lunch.jpg)
Oswald also told Fritz that he ate lunch with Junior. Bzzzzztt, wrong!
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90CxC902/Jarman-had-lunch-without-Oswald.jpg)
Therefore Oswald kept fabricating ever evolving alibi's which are contradicted by the facts.
JohnM
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Nice try, but nobody said Junior and Norman ate together.
Oswald told Kelley on the day that Kennedy was assassinated, that Junior and a little short negro boy ate lunch with him in the lunchroom and Norman was quite short and the two negro men went out front together and the two negro men went with each other to the 5th floor and directly above Norman was Oswald with Oswald's rifle waiting for the President. While it's true that we don't know that Junior ate with Norman(little short negro boy) in the lunchroom on previous days, it logically follows that Oswald based his lie on this observation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhhZ2nMs/SS-report-Osw-ald-interrogation-lunch-Kelley-a.jpg)
From left to right, Williams, Norman and Jarman.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SDnJYqp/CE-491-Williams-Norman-and-Jarman.jpg)
And at the end of the day the most important evidence is that Jarman didn't eat with Oswald, so in trying to bluff his way to an alibi, Oswald categorically lied.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90CxC902/Jarman-had-lunch-without-Osw-ald.jpg)
JohnM
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Yet another "Mytton" strawman. Nobody said "everyone lied". You are the one claiming "provable lies" without any actual proof.
Stop cherry picking and quote me correctly, what I said was "That's why it's so easy to be a CT because their fall back of everyone lied except who the CT's say, said the truth".
And you're prime example, in the thread linked below, at the Texas Theatre multiple Policemen arrested Oswald and the way you selectively pick and choose your narrative to protect a Killer is frankly insane. For example Oswald reached for his revolver(which BTW was the same revolver that killed Tippit and a reason they were there) and according to McDonald, Oswald was drawing it, but erroneously you argued that carrying a concealed weapon wasn't a crime(it actually was according to Belin) and that basically you implied that the Police should have let Oswald draw his revolver out into the open and kill them all!
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3606.0.html
Mr. BALL - Did you feel the pistol?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the pistol?
Mr. McDONALD - His right hand was on the pistol.
Mr. BALL - And which of your hands?
Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What happened
McDonald felt the movement of the hammer between his thumb and forefinger and other Police Officers besides McDonald heard the snap which they recognised as a revolver, only Hawkins wasn't exactly sure of the source but he did hear the snap.
Mr. BALL - Had you felt any movement of the hammer?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats.
Mr. BALL - When your left hand went into the seats, what happened?
Mr. McDONALD - It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a snap. I didn't know what it was at the time.
Mr. BALL - Was the pistol out of his waist at that time?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it?
Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol snaps.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a click of the seat?
Mr. WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click at a revolver on the shell, and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer?
Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure it was.
I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkT1LJJ6/Mcdonald-nearly-killed-by-Oswald.gif)
JohnM
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I’m still having a problem with Oswald being so stupid. Would Oswald have specifically mentioned eating lunch with 2 coincidentally black TSBD employees whom Oswald did not even had any conversation with?
IMO the reason Oswald to mention specifically 2 black employees is because Oswajd saw them go past the Domino room at 12:25 approx , while Oswald was eating by himself in the Domino room.
As far as any running down the stairs by either Oswald or a conspirator shooter, it’s not quite so simple and easy , because Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were starting down the 4th floor staircase as early as 25 secs post shots.
Therefore, Dorothy Garner who followed behind them “””almost immediately” after they had left the office door, would have Garner standing near the rear staircase by 40 secs post shots, which is only way that Garner could have heard THEM ( Adams/Stiles) still going down the stairs.
If it was just some “noise on the steps” that Garner heard, then I do not think she would have used the specific word “THEM” when describing what she heard.
If the shooter was Oswald, and he was not wearing gloves, then Oswald has to wipe the rifle clean of prints. That requires either an additional 10 secs of time when Oswald stopped at the boxes near the staircase , or Oswald had to run slower at a double time speed of 8ft/sec to be able to simultaneously wipe prints off the ridge while running with it.
The fastest probable time (imo) that Oswald would be starting down the staircase from 6th floor if he was able to simultaneously wipe the rifle and double time the 180ft distance, would be 40 secs post shots. This is because of 2 witnesses, Bob Jackson and Malcolm Couch having seen a rifle slowly being withdrawn from the TSBD 6th floor SE corner window AFTER the last shot was fired. And it took a few secs at least for Jackson to spot the rifle , a few more secs to exclaim “there’s a rifle in that window” as he pointed towards it, and a few secs more for Couch to look up and find which window Jackson was pointing at.
Also, the snipers nest before it was rearranged by Fritz and team, was boxed in with a very narrow opening, according to Tom Aleya.
So that adds a few secs more for the shooter to have to squeeze thru carrying the his rifle.
Therefore, although that’s an interesting new idea by Storing that a person could jump out from the 2nd floor west side window of TSBD window and be on top of the roof of that adjacent building attached to TSBD, the running down the stairs part is still has a problem because of Garner/Adams/Stiles.
Maybe , though, the idea of jumping out the 2nd floor west window can synthesized with the idea of the east elevator operated by accomplice to transport a shooter to the 2nd floor landing by 50 secs post shots?
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MASON - I have proven via Image Evidence that those Huge Gates were Open/Ajar. (Towner Film & Couch Film Reverse Negative). This means at least 1 Man on those Huge Gates during the shots being fired. Probably also a Spotter + The Shooter on the TSBD 6th Floor. And then comes Oswald cooling his heels inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. This means 4 guys minimum. This was a well planned operation, with Oswald being the "inside man". Oswald knew the TSBD connected to the Huge Gates, and he knew about that 2nd Floor window being right next to the stairwell, leading to the roof top. Oswald collecting book orders up and down the 6 floors of the TSBD, means he would have known every nook-n-cranny inside and outside of that building.
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Oswald's alibi was that at the time of the assassination, he was in the Lunch room.
The following report says that during the time Oswald claimed that he ate his lunch, two negro employees walked through the room.
And outside of the lunch room on the first floor was as you say was the shipping area, which as your terminology rightfully points out is not a room.
Of course it's a room.
Norman and Junior got in the elevator and went straight from the first floor to the fifth floor, which rules out any encounter on the 2nd floor and the lunchroom there.
Who said anything about the second floor?
Oswald also told Fritz that he ate lunch with Junior. Bzzzzztt, wrong!
Fritz, Kelly, and Bookhout are all talking about the same interrogation session. You don't know which account (if any) is accurate.
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For example Oswald reached for his revolver(which BTW was the same revolver that killed Tippit and a reason they were there)
LOL
and according to McDonald, Oswald was drawing it, but erroneously you argued that carrying a concealed weapon wasn't a crime
I didn't argue that. Speaking of quoting people incorrectly.
(it actually was according to Belin) and that basically you implied that the Police should have let Oswald draw his revolver out into the open and kill them all!
What you want to pretend I "implied" is irrelevant.
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@STORING: Euins, Couch ,Jackson, and Brennan were 4 of the closest witness to observe a rifle in the hands of someone at the SE 6th floor TSBD window , agreed?
Why do NONE of them see a scope on the rifle?
Arnold Rowland, however, who was a block away and looking diagonally across that block at distance of 250 ft ( 2x farther away) at the SW 6th floor TSBD window DID see a scope on a rifle held by someone at 12:15pm.
Euins said the rifle barrel he saw at the SE window looked like a pipe about 15” long by 1/2 inch in diameter. And he thought he could see about 3ft of the rifle sticking out the window. And yet he saw no scope even though from his perspective the left side scope of the MC rifle would have been easy to see. Euins was far sighted so how he was unable to see the left side mounted scope of the MC rifle is a mystery from a distance of only about 100ft away (distance includes looking up the 72 ft height side of the TSBD to 6th floor level)
Jackson and Couch from their car position still on Houston st and not far from turning on Elm st (judging from the W-film, ) saw no scope either.
What about 2 shooters on the 6th floor of TSBD as a theory? The SE window shooter got the Z313 shot and then he could have been able to
Run to the rear staircase in 10 secs ( only 80 ft away). He could have tossed his rifle out the 6th floor west window beside the staircase just before he starts down the stairs.
The rifle in about 3 secs would fall and land on the roof of that adjacent annex building which is at the 2nd floor level of TSBD.
Somebody waiting on that 2nd story high roof hides the rifle somewhere?
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I have seen the "No TrueFlags Here" You Tube presentation regarding the dropping of a rifle out of the 6th Floor window and the rifle being retrieved from the Huge Gates Roof Top. That's a 4 story free fall that the rifle is taking. I do Not believe that is much of a "plan". If I am thinking about retrieving a dropped rifle from the Huge Gates Rooftop, how about just putting a shooter on Top of that Roof Top to begin with? He fires from that 2nd Floor Height, walks along the roof, goes through the window near the staircase, down the staircase, and then walks out the Huge Gates onto the Elm St Ext. Very Quick, Very Clean Escape. Those Huge Gates were Open on the Towner Film as the JFK Limo was making the turn from Houston St onto Elm St. Those Huge Gates were still Open on the Couch Film. This was a well thought out "plan". The dropping of a rifle 4 stories down onto a roof top is minor league compared to having those Huge Gates wide open for a quick exit.
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Exactly how he told the Dallas Police.
He said he took the elevator.
The elevator exits directly behind the lunchroom he was spotted in.
That’s why he was not out of breath.
He may have sent the elevator back up.
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How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository?
He walked down the stairs (with the "prop" bottle of Coke-Cola he'd bought before he killed JFK) while Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles were conferring with their supervisor on the 4th floor. He then ducked into the 2nd floor lunchroom's "vestibule" just as Roy Truly was reaching said floor, and all three of them (Truly, Baker and Oswald) happened to be inside it when Adams and Styles finally arrived on the second floor and spent a total of about two seconds on it as they navigated the arc between the down-coming and down-going stairs. When Truly and Baker were finished "accosting him" in the "vestibule," he walked through Mrs. Reid's office with his "prop" bottle of Coke-Cola, walked down the front stairs to the first floor, and exited the building through a rear door.
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Why this fascination with the stairs.
The elevator could have been parked at the sixth floor.
They all took the elevator to go down?
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Why this fascination with the stairs.
The elevator could have been parked at the sixth floor.
They all took the elevator to go down?
All I did was spell out a plausible scenario.
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------- TO BE CONTINUED, (as promised) ---------------- For starters, how about taking a look at the 3 Tramps Photo that shows The Tramps being escorted down the Elm St Ext and passed the TSBD. See those Huge Gates? See how those Huge Gates are AJAR/OPEN? That side of the TSBD has access to those Huge Gates that are Ajar/Open. The 3 Tramps Photo was taken roughly 1:45-2:00 Hrs AFTER the Kill Shot. Those Huge Gates are also visible on the Martin Film. You can see those same Huge Gates on the segment of the Martin Film showing Amos Euins on the back of DPD Harkness's 3 Wheel Motorcycle as they speed down the Elm St Ext. Those Huge Gates are also AJAR/OPEN at this point in time. This Amos Euins Scene is taking place roughly 5 Minutes following the Kill Shot. This means those Huge Gates, (which are accessible from the TSBD), were Ajar/Open from at least 5 MINUTES after the Kill Shot until roughly 2 Hrs After the Kill Shot. Oswald and/or anyone else could have exited the TSBD via these Huge Gates and easily mixed into the shocked crowd outside of the TSBD. (1) WHY are these Huge Gates OPEN immediately after the Kill Shot? (2) Why are these Huge Gates REMAINING OPEN for roughly 2 Hrs? -------------- TO BE CONTINUED -----------------------------
Storing,
It's "past," not "passed."
Regardless, I absolutely LOVE how you REPEAT the word HUGE so many TIMES.
HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE . . . . . . .
Question: Does the fact that the gates were large somehow make a huge difference?
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Storing,
It's "past," not "passed."
Regardless, I absolutely LOVE how you REPEAT the word HUGE so many TIMES.
HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE . . . . . . .
Question: Does the fact that the gates were large somehow make a huge difference?
Being that the Huge Gates were torn down along with that entire half block of the Elm St Ext, I do Not believe that 90% of those interested in the JFK Assassination realize how Massive they were. My estimation is that each gate is roughly 8' Wide by 12' -14' High. (Higher than a Pro basketball rim). This is why Officer Mooney could only close 1 gate by himself. Just look at a good copy of the 3 Tramps Photo as the Tramps are escorted passed those still unlocked/open gates. For those Massive Gates to be "Wide Open" as Officer Mooney testified, means their being Wide Open was Planned. Nobody accidentally leaves 2 massive structures "Wide Open" by accident.
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Being that the Huge Gates were torn down along with that entire half block of the Elm St Ext, I do Not believe that 90% of those interested in the JFK Assassination realize how Massive they were. My estimation is that each gate is roughly 8' Wide by 12' -14' High. (Higher than a Pro basketball rim). This is why Officer Mooney could only close 1 gate by himself. Just look at a good copy of the 3 Tramps Photo as the Tramps are escorted passed those still unlocked/open gates. For those Massive Gates to be "Wide Open" as Officer Mooney testified, means their being Wide Open was Planned. Nobody accidentally leaves 2 massive structures "Wide Open" by accident.
Do you really think the architect who designed that entrance made the gates so massively HUGE and heavy that they would require two big, strong men to open them and close them every day?
How is it that Officer Mooney, as you say, was able to close one gate, but not the other?
Did he get completely tuckered out closing the first one?
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All I did was spell out a plausible scenario.
Fair enough. It’s a possible scenario.
I’m just puzzled as to why the alternative scenario doesn’t seem to be considered.
Especially since Oswald said he used the elevator.
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Fair enough. It’s a possible scenario.
I’m just puzzled as to why the alternative scenario doesn’t seem to be considered.
Especially since Oswald said he used the elevator.
Okay.
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Do you really think the architect who designed that entrance made the gates so massively HUGE and heavy that they would require two big, strong men to open them and close them every day?
How is it that Officer Mooney, as you say, was able to close one gate, but not the other?
Did he get completely tuckered out closing the first one?
Have you completely read the WC Testimony of Officer Mooney? Doing so will answer your questions. Have you examined a good copy of the 3 Tramps Photo showing them being escorted passed those Huge Gates? Doing so will confirm the size/mass of those gates. Those Huge Gates were not "Wide Open" by accident. And these wide open huge gates were right across from the Bushes that DPD Officer Smith was checking for a possible shooter. Possible bush "shooters" were reported to Officer Smith by a "hysterical" woman. Bill Newman filed a Sheriffs Dept statement the day of the assassination. In that statement he said, "I thought the shot had come from THE GARDEN directly behind me.......". Based on Newman's physical position at the time of the shooting and everything that was behind him, I believe when Bill Newman says "The Garden", he is referencing those "bushes" that run down the Elm St Ext across from the "Wide Open" Huge Gates. Those "Wide Open" Huge Gates were "Wide Open" for a reason.
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Have you completely read the WC Testimony of Officer Mooney? Doing so will answer your questions. Have you examined a good copy of the 3 Tramps Photo showing them being escorted passed those Huge Gates? Doing so will confirm the size/mass of those gates. Those Huge Gates were not "Wide Open" by accident. And these wide open huge gates were right across from the Bushes that DPD Officer Smith was checking for a possible shooter. Possible bush "shooters" were reported to Officer Smith by a "hysterical" woman. Bill Newman filed a Sheriffs Dept statement the day of the assassination. In that statement he said, "I thought the shot had come from THE GARDEN directly behind me.......". Based on Newman's physical position at the time of the shooting and everything that was behind him, I believe when Bill Newman says "The Garden", he is referencing those "bushes" that run down the Elm St Ext across from the "Wide Open" Huge Gates. Those "Wide Open" Huge Gates were "Wide Open" for a reason.
Storing,
Why were the HUGE gates wide open?
So the evil, evil, evil Deep State bad guys could drive an armored personnel carrier into the TSBD and extract the evil, evil CIA assassin(s)?
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The JFK case is deeply problematic. Every attempt to tie Oswald to the assassination spawns conspiracy theories simply because you’re wading into a fog of misinformation. There were nearly a dozen investigators, yet no one was properly overseeing things. It’s hardly surprising that the evidence was trampled, smeared, torn apart, and destroyed in the chaotic rush.
I don’t take things at face value. In my experience, under stress, the human brain tends to fill in gaps in memory — very few people have a photographic recall, let alone the ability to accurately recreate events on paper.
I lean toward the official version because I’m willing to accept it as mostly truthful. That doesn’t excuse the strange behavior of the intelligence agencies or the chaos within them ahead of an expected leadership change. But the official narrative has one glaring flaw — the biggest of all. Once you answer it, the case falls into place: How exactly did the shooter get down from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository? Years have passed, and no one has been able to provide a clear answer.
You don’t need to ask about a third party. You don’t need to link Ruby and Oswald — jurisprudence (let alone history) doesn’t deal in maybes, and even if they knew each other, that’s a separate issue. In law, things proceed step by step.
So, you have the Texas School Book Depository. You have the sixth floor, where three spent rifle cartridges were found near an open window. Later, the rifle itself was discovered there. You have a list of employees, one of whom is missing — his coworkers say he was there, but he’s gone.
You need to find him — to determine why he vanished: fear, illness, flight. Maybe you’ll get fingerprints that match. Maybe you’ll find gunshot residue that aligns. But the key evidence is how the shooter left the crime scene.
And we have conflicting witness statements, even doubts about the number of shots fired — 2, 3, 5, possibly including a blank, 8…
Let’s say there were three shots. We have three shell casings. And we know the shooter had to be skilled. So we’re looking for marksmen — hard to narrow down in America, where every other man can shoot. In Italy, France, or Russia, maybe one in five served in wars. A reenactment with three shots would require intense focus.
Suppose there were only two shots — then why a third casing? I doubt there’s any method to determine, based on the casings alone, when each shot was fired — if that’s even possible.
Even if you match the prints and prove the rifle was Oswald’s, that doesn’t directly prove he pulled the trigger. Even if you have a written confession backed by a "lie detector," it’s still not definitive.
The strongest evidence — the critical link — is how the shooter left the scene. Who walked away from where those three shell casings were found?
All these years later — and it’s been a long time — no one has clearly explained how the "owner of those three shell casings" got off the sixth floor or which route he took. Oswald’s testimony won’t help — he denied everything. I’m not even sure anyone asked him why he left work early that day. No experiment has answered it, either.
It’s bizarre, given the enormity of the event, that no one has recreated the shots from the sixth floor to record echoes and compare audio data. It wouldn’t be expensive. Yet everyone argues about ballistics and acoustics based on interpretations of old recordings — while the number of living witnesses dwindles each year.
And were all buildings overlooking Dealey Plaza thoroughly checked?
But I suspect that until someone answers the question of the "owner of the three shell casings," the JFK case will keep spawning new theories. :-[
Read my old stuff, its perfect re Oswald's moovments.
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Read my old stuff, its perfect re Oswald's moovments.
Marjan,
Where do you get off?
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[quote author=Martin Fox link=topic=4321.msg164805#msg164805 date=1745991967
The answer starts with how the shooter got out: Did he take the elevator (which one?), the stairs?
If we know Oswald yelled at coworkers to hold the elevator doors on the first floor, could the elevator have somehow ended up on the fifth floor after the shooter used it?
[/quote]
Oswald reportedly asked a coworker to send the elevator back up to the sixth floor.
By opening the gate it would be secured there for escape purposes. It would be the RHS elevator which exists onto the landing behind the lunch room. I think he sent it back up again when he got out.
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Marjan,
Where do you get off?
Here.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2947.0.html
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Here.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2947.0.html
Why do you reject the idea that Oswald killed JFK?