JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Watson Phillips on April 07, 2025, 10:03:06 PM
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October 1956 - Oswald enlists in the Marine Corp and specializes in aircraft surveillance and use of radar. Is designated aviation electronics operator.
September 1957 - Oswald is transferred to Atsugi Naval Air Facility in Japan. The U2 spy plane is operating out of Atsugi at this time.
October 1959 - Oswald defects to the USSR.
October 31, 1959 - Oswald goes to US embassy in Moscow to renounce his US citizenship and tells embassy staff he is going to tell the Soviets what he knows about his time as a radar operator in the Marines.
May 1, 1960 - Francis Gary Powers takes off on a U2 mission from Pakistan to flyover the USSR and is shot down by surface to air missiles.
June 1, 1962 - Oswald returns to the US and is given a $435 loan by the embassy.
Did Oswald provide valuable information about the U2 program to the USSR that allowed them to track and shoot down Powers U2 flight? It seems possible yet no one ever discusses this possibility. You would think someone in USGOV would have been suspicious of a marine defector to the USSR on this timeline after the Powers shootdown. Yet - Oswald is allowed to return to the US and given a loan to do so. How did this not set off some type of alarm bells? We know the CIA / FBI were aware of him - but was he ever interrogated on his return about sharing U2 program secrets? If not - why not? If so, where is that record?
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October 1956 - Oswald enlists in the Marine Corp and specializes in aircraft surveillance and use of radar. Is designated aviation electronics operator.
September 1957 - Oswald is transferred to Atsugi Naval Air Facility in Japan. The U2 spy plane is operating out of Atsugi at this time.
October 1959 - Oswald defects to the USSR.
October 31, 1959 - Oswald goes to US embassy in Moscow to renounce his US citizenship and tells embassy staff he is going to tell the Soviets what he knows about his time as a radar operator in the Marines.
May 1, 1960 - Francis Gary Powers takes off on a U2 mission from Pakistan to flyover the USSR and is shot down by surface to air missiles.
June 1, 1962 - Oswald returns to the US and is given a $435 loan by the embassy.
Did Oswald provide valuable information about the U2 program to the USSR that allowed them to track and shoot down Powers U2 flight? It seems possible yet no one ever discusses this possibility. You would think someone in USGOV would have been suspicious of a marine defector to the USSR on this timeline after the Powers shootdown. Yet - Oswald is allowed to return to the US and given a loan to do so. How did this not set off some type of alarm bells? We know the CIA / FBI were aware of him - but was he ever interrogated on his return about sharing U2 program secrets? If not - why not? If so, where is that record?
A Soviet military intelligence officer and double agent, Pyotr Popov, told the CIA in 1958 that the Soviets had acquired operational details of the U2. According to the accounts when the CIA was told about it they were stunned. If you do a search for: "Pyotr Popov and U-2" you'll get the details.
Short version: Oswald didn't have any information that the Soviets already knew.
And if you read the Epstein book "Legend", you'll learn that Oswald didn't know much about the U2 that the other Marines in his unit didn't know. They - Oswald and his fellow radar operators - watched the U2 take off on their screens and then land. Soviet radar operators could see much of this too (except for the landing/taking off).
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I am going from memory only, so I could be mistaken. But I seem to remember that when the U.S. military learned of LHO's "defection" they changed all the friend/foe identification codes that aircraft used when approaching U.S. controlled air spaces. Those codes were supposedly considered the most sensitive information that LHO might be able to share with the Soviets. By changing those codes, they believed that they eliminated the main threat that LHO's defection posed. I would think it would be prudent to change those codes routinely every so often anyway, regardless of any potential leaks. So, I suspect this wasn't a big deal to them.
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I am going from memory only, so I could be mistaken. But I seem to remember that when the U.S. military learned of LHO's "defection" they changed all the friend/foe identification codes that aircraft used when approaching U.S. controlled air spaces. Those codes were supposedly considered the most sensitive information that LHO might be able to share with the Soviets. By changing those codes, they believed that they eliminated the main threat that LHO's defection posed. I would think it would be prudent to change those codes routinely every so often anyway, regardless of any potential leaks. So, I suspect this wasn't a big deal to them.
Yes, the "assistant operations officer" of Oswald's unit at the time, John Donovan, said they had to change all of the IFF codes. But they would do that periodically anyway.
WC testimony:
Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to get him a flight---that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas, his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual, either.
I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.
He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar.
If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been able to recall them a month later, either.
Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a fairly widespread action?
Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it. These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond.
And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to be.
Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course?
Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.
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The HSCA asked the Justice Department why they didn't prosecute Oswald for providing classified information to the Soviets. They said they concluded that they had no evidence to present to the Court that he violated the law. Oswald later denied giving any information to the Soviets and the Justice Department had nothing to indicate otherwise other than his earlier threat to do so.
Here's what they told the HSCA:
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12306953500/Keyxb8843pld1tx/oswald prosecution.JPG)
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12306953491/Keysh0a2tcxb7pg/oswald prosecution two.JPG)
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Thanks for both of the above replies Steve. That’s some good information.
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A Soviet military intelligence officer and double agent, Pyotr Popov, told the CIA in 1958 that the Soviets had acquired operational details of the US. According to the accounts when the CIA was told about it they were stunned. If you do a search for: "Pyotr Popov and U-2" you'll get the details.
Short version: Oswald didn't have any information that the Soviets already knew.
And if you read the Epstein book "Legend", you'll learn that Oswald didn't know much about the U2 that the other Marines in his unit didn't know. They - Oswald and his fellow radar operators - watched the U2 take off on their screens and then land. Soviet radar operators could see much of this too (except for the landing/taking off).
Thanks Steve,
So does that mean the Soviets know nothing, or everything about Oswald's background when he showed up on their doorstep ?
Would he have been given a through interrogation by the soviets on his history before he was allowed to stay ?
Given Oswald's known desire to be someone of importance I find it hard to believe that Oswald wanting to show his importance & communist loyalty would not have hinted that he knew some things of value that they did not, and hinting at that they would not have satisfied themselves that he either did or did not .
Don't you think ?
Why were they so eager to get rid of Oswald after he had been there so long ?
Did they consider his military background to be a ploy he was sent to them with ?
Did this fellow Popov say anything about these other issues ?
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Yuri Nosenko said the Soviets didn't know he had any connection with the U-2 flights and apparently Oswald didn't admit to. However, I've also read that they did ask him about the U-2 and supposedly he gave them information they already knew. So who knows?
Mr. KLEIN. Who [Oswald] had been a radar operator and had worked on a base from which U-2 airplanes took off and landed, that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB to speak to him, to find out if he knew any of this information?
Mr. NOSENKO. Mr. Klein, I understand your position, but we didn't know that he had any connection with U-2 flights. That is one thing. And if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written by Mr. Epstein in the book, it is a little bit from the air taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how important for KGB to know about such base that base. We knew it in the fifties when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950, 1951, 1952. We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi base, and we knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, we didn't know a word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2 flights.
Mr. KLEIN. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of information about that when he wanted to defect, is that correct ?
Mr. NOSENKO. No.
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I am going from memory only, so I could be mistaken. But I seem to remember that when the U.S. military learned of LHO's "defection" they changed all the friend/foe identification codes that aircraft used when approaching U.S. controlled air spaces. Those codes were supposedly considered the most sensitive information that LHO might be able to share with the Soviets. By changing those codes, they believed that they eliminated the main threat that LHO's defection posed. I would think it would be prudent to change those codes routinely every so often anyway, regardless of any potential leaks. So, I suspect this wasn't a big deal to them.
Thanks Charles,
It does seem odd the only two U2 planes ever shot down by Russia were only shot down after Oswald had defected.
From you have read about him does Oswald strike you as the type eager to be a person of importance and value in his new home?
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Yuri Nosenko said the Soviets didn't know he had any connection with the U-2 flights and apparently Oswald didn't admit to. However, I've also read that they did ask him about the U-2 and supposedly he gave them information they already knew. So who knows?
Mr. KLEIN. Who [Oswald] had been a radar operator and had worked on a base from which U-2 airplanes took off and landed, that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB to speak to him, to find out if he knew any of this information?
Mr. NOSENKO. Mr. Klein, I understand your position, but we didn't know that he had any connection with U-2 flights. That is one thing. And if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written by Mr. Epstein in the book, it is a little bit from the air taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how important for KGB to know about such base that base. We knew it in the fifties when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950, 1951, 1952. We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi base, and we knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, we didn't know a word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2 flights.
Mr. KLEIN. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of information about that when he wanted to defect, is that correct ?
Mr. NOSENKO. No.
Dear Steve M.,
Putative KGB officer Yuri Nosenko, whom true defector Major Pyotr Deriabin determined in 1965 didn't know such basic KGB-officer things as how to send a cable, how many floors of the U.S. Embassy were dedicated to the CIA (3), and where the cafeteria was at KGB headquarters, was a false-defector-in-place in Geneva in June 1962, sent there by Gribanov's Department 14 in the Second Chief Directorate (today's FSB) to discredit what a recent true defector, Major Anatoliy Golitsyn, was telling James Angleton about possible penetrations of the CIA (can you say Richard Kovich, Bruce Leonard Solie, and Leonard V. McCoy?), and a rogue physical defector to the U.S. in February 1964 whose bona fides in the U.S. the KGB had no choice but to support (through Aleksei Kulak, Igor Kochnov, Boris Orekhov, and Vitaly Yurchenko, et al.) because he was telling the CIA and the FBI what it desperately wanted them to hear -- that the KGB had absolutely nothing to do with "abnormal" former Marine sharpshooter and U-2 radar operator Oswald during the two-and-one-half years he lived in the USSR.
BTW, the HSCA ended deeming Nosenko a liar.
I'm surprised that you, intelligent and well-read young man that you are, would lend Nosenko any credence at all. (Ditto Nechiporenko, if you do.)
Have you read Bagley's 2007 Yale University Press book, Spy Wars: Moles, Mysteries, and Deadly Games, and his 2014 follow-up article, "Ghosts of the Spy Wars"? Both are free to read -- just google "spy wars" and "archive" simultaneously and "ghosts of the spy wars" and "archive" simultaneously.
Regarding the theory that Nosenko was a rogue defector in 1964, I suggest that you read W. Alan Messer's fine paper, "In Pursuit of the Squared Circle: The Nosenko Theories Revisited," which you can read for free under my Substack banner, "How the KGB Zombified the CIA and the KGB."
Enjoy!
-- Tom
PS John M. Newman, author of the 1995/2008 book, "Oswald and the CIA," postulates in his 2022 book, Uncovering Popov's Mole -- which he dedicated to Bagley, btw -- that mole Solie in the mole-hunting Office of Security, upon hearing from (probable mole, imho) Kisevalter in April 1958 that Popov had told him in West Berlin that he'd recently overheard a drunken GRU colonel brag that the Kremlin had all of the top-secret specifications of the U-2 spy plane, sent (or duped his confidant, protégé, and mole-hunting subordinate, Angleton, into sending) Oswald to Moscow in late 1959 as an ostensible "dangle" in a (unbeknownst to Angleton and Oswald) planned-to-fail hunt for "Popov's U-2 Mole" (Solie) in the wrong part of the CIA -- the Soviet Russia Division -- which mole hunt lasted nine years, tore the SRD apart, and drove Angleton nutty cakes.
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Thanks Charles,
It does seem odd the only two U2 planes ever shot down by Russia were only shot down after Oswald had defected.
From you have read about him does Oswald strike you as the type eager to be a person of importance and value in his new home?
My understanding of the explanation for Russia’s ability to shoot down U2 spy planes is that the development of their anti-aircraft missiles finally reached a point where their missiles could ascend to a high enough altitude. Before that, the U2 spy planes were simply out of their reach. I believe that due to the fact that this happened while LHO was in Russia is just another one of those “strange” coincidences that happened. I ask: what could LHO have possibly told them about the U2 that would have enabled their missiles to reach higher altitudes. I don’t believe LHO’s presence in Russia had anything at all to do with that development.
To try to answer your question, it appears to me that LHO was still extremely angry about his court martial and incarceration in the USMC. I believe that he therefore considered the U.S. to be his “enemy.” Some of the language in his letters to his brother Robert is evidence of this. I believe that LHO eventually realized, after spending some time in Russia, that it was not the utopia that he had envisioned before he went there. When he returned to the U.S. it appears to me that his hopes for a “utopian existence” turned towards Cuba.
JFK’s inaugural speech contained the following quote:
”And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Sadly, LHO appears to me to have believed the opposite of what JFK was saying. And even sadder, it appears to me that LHO was eager to use violence to try to change a system that he felt was “rigged against him.” I believe that LHO’s disillusionment was due in large part to a lack of proper upbringing.
Parents have a huge responsibility to teach their children how to prosper not only physically but mentally, spiritually, and financially. I believe that the JFK assassination is an extreme example of what can happen when parents fail in their responsibilities.
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My understanding of the explanation for Russia’s ability to shoot down U2 spy planes is that the development of their anti-aircraft missiles finally reached a point where their missiles could ascend to a high enough altitude. Before that, the U2 spy planes were simply out of their reach. I believe that due to the fact that this happened while LHO was in Russia is just another one of those “strange” coincidences that happened. I ask: what could LHO have possibly told them about the U2 that would have enabled their missiles to reach higher altitudes. I don’t believe LHO’s presence in Russia had anything at all to do with that development.
To try to answer your question, it appears to me that LHO was still extremely angry about his court martial and incarceration in the USMC. I believe that he therefore considered the U.S. to be his “enemy.” Some of the language in his letters to his brother Robert is evidence of this. I believe that LHO eventually realized, after spending some time in Russia, that it was not the utopia that he had envisioned before he went there. When he returned to the U.S. it appears to me that his hopes for a “utopian existence” turned towards Cuba.
JFK’s inaugural speech contained the following quote:
”And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Sadly, LHO appears to me to have believed the opposite of what JFK was saying. And even sadder, it appears to me that LHO was eager to use violence to try to change a system that he felt was “rigged against him.” I believe that LHO’s disillusionment was due in large part to a lack of proper upbringing.
Parents have a huge responsibility to teach their children how to prosper not only physically but mentally, spiritually, and financially. I believe that the JFK assassination is an extreme example of what can happen when parents fail in their responsibilities.
I believe that he therefore considered the U.S. to be his “enemy.” Some of the language in his letters to his brother Robert is evidence of this.
A lot of people don't realize exactly how insane Oswald really was. In the following excerpt from a letter to Robert his brother, Oswald says and I'm paraphrasing here, Oswald would defend his new country by killing any American and then repeats and highlights -Any American-, clearly insinuating he would even kill his own brother!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXktQCBx/WH-Vol16-0423anov26robertletterdefendab.jpg)
JohnM
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A lot of people don't realize exactly how insane Oswald really was. In the following excerpt from a letter to Robert his brother, Oswald says and I'm paraphrasing here, Oswald would defend his new country by killing any American and then repeats and highlights -Any American-, clearly insinuating he would even kill his own brother!
He was a Marxist.
D'oh
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A lot of people don't realize exactly how insane Oswald really was. In the following excerpt from a letter to Robert his brother, Oswald says and I'm paraphrasing here, Oswald would defend his new country by killing any American and then repeats and highlights -Any American-, clearly insinuating he would even kill his own brother!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXktQCBx/WH-Vol16-0423anov26robertletterdefendab.jpg)
JohnM
The last sentence visible in that image of the letter to Robert Oswald probably best answers the question that Watson Phillips asked. LHO himself wrote that he wanted to lead a “normal happy and peaceful life” in the USSR.
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My understanding of the explanation for Russia’s ability to shoot down U2 spy planes is that the development of their anti-aircraft missiles finally reached a point where their missiles could ascend to a high enough altitude. Before that, the U2 spy planes were simply out of their reach. I believe that due to the fact that this happened while LHO was in Russia is just another one of those “strange” coincidences that happened. I ask: what could LHO have possibly told them about the U2 that would have enabled their missiles to reach higher altitudes. I don’t believe LHO’s presence in Russia had anything at all to do with that development.
To try to answer your question, it appears to me that LHO was still extremely angry about his court martial and incarceration in the USMC. I believe that he therefore considered the U.S. to be his “enemy.” Some of the language in his letters to his brother Robert is evidence of this. I believe that LHO eventually realized, after spending some time in Russia, that it was not the utopia that he had envisioned before he went there. When he returned to the U.S. it appears to me that his hopes for a “utopian existence” turned towards Cuba.
JFK’s inaugural speech contained the following quote:
”And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Sadly, LHO appears to me to have believed the opposite of what JFK was saying. And even sadder, it appears to me that LHO was eager to use violence to try to change a system that he felt was “rigged against him.” I believe that LHO’s disillusionment was due in large part to a lack of proper upbringing.
Parents have a huge responsibility to teach their children how to prosper not only physically but mentally, spiritually, and financially. I believe that the JFK assassination is an extreme example of what can happen when parents fail in their responsibilities.
n b
Thanks Charles,
Given his anger, His reported lifelong need to be a notable person of importance, in starting a brand new life in USSR do you find it more plausible that LHO either hoped to use his military security clearance as a card to play in impressing & gaining prominence with his new communist comrades , or he just decided to never mention a word of it.
I find it hard given what we know about his personality that he had no hopes of parlaying his military intelligence experience into a position of some importance in the communist party ?
Being advised from his new leaders that " we already know all that , now got to work in the factory " would have been a very bitter pill for him to swallow given his fantasy of having his own office at the Kremlin.
Don't you think it possible that having pinned his grandiose hopes of becoming a brand new person of political importance in the communist Party thru his military experience, but then being rejected and told to go work in a factory this could be a source of his disillusionment with USSR and be the source of his returning to home.
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Thanks for both of the above replies Steve. That’s some good information.
The Epstein book "Legend" is, I think, greatly overlooked. Yes, he fell for Angelton's theory that Oswald was a KGB asset or agent but the book has a great deal of information about Oswald's time in the Marines especially at Atsugi. Epstein interviewed about 35 Marines who were in Oswald's unit (MACS-1), some at the same time he was there, and their description of the security is stunning. Essentially none. Many people on the base were aware of the flights; they didn't know where it went but some suspected they were flown over the USSR.
And as you mentioned before, several Marines said that when Oswald came out of the brig he was completely different. Very angry and distant. From their account the brig was a very tough experience for people to go through. Brutal.
As to the Soviets: I still don't know what they questioned him about. Nosenko said they didn't know about his U-2 knowledge (What? They didn't ask him about his Marine experience?) while others said they did but he didn't know anything that they already knew. I do think that after the attempted suicide they considered him too erratic and nutty to use for anything. Although on the other hand - there's always two or three of these in this, isn't there? - they did let him leave pretty easily. It took awhile to go through the Soviet and US bureaucracies but they essentially let him go with little opposition.
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n b
Thanks Charles,
Given his anger, His reported lifelong need to be a notable person of importance, in starting a brand new life in USSR do you find it more plausible that LHO either hoped to use his military security clearance as a card to play in impressing & gaining prominence with his new communist comrades , or he just decided to never mention a word of it.
I find it hard given what we know about his personality that he had no hopes of parlaying his military intelligence experience into a position of some importance in the communist party ?
Being advised from his new leaders that " we already know all that , now got to work in the factory " would have been a very bitter pill for him to swallow given his fantasy of having his own office at the Kremlin.
Don't you think it possible that having pinned his grandiose hopes of becoming a brand new person of political importance in the communist Party thru his military experience, but then being rejected and told to go work in a factory this could be a source of his disillusionment with USSR and be the source of his returning to home.
Most of us cannot fathom what must have been going through the mind of someone cowardly enough to take a high powered rifle and shoot (ambush) an unarmed man from behind. There are a lot of contradictions in what we do have evidence of. He writes in the same letter of “killing Americans in uniform,” and also of living a normal happy and peaceful life in the USSR. Frankly I do not believe that he had any experience or information that would be of much interest the Soviet intelligence community. And I suspect that LHO also knew that. So, I disagree with your idea.
Some people have a tendency to go way overboard with their political beliefs. Take for example Eric Rudolph who apparently felt it was necessary for him to plant bombs and kill innocent people (including the totally unrelated Olympics venue in Atlanta). Supposedly, all because he was apparently upset about the abortion clinics. I put LHO in a similar category. We are talking about fanatical people and actions that cannot be easily explained by reason. There are quite a few choices that we could try to attribute to LHO’s motive. And all of them could potentially be partially correct. It might have been a combination of those possible motives plus the fact that the opportunity to take a few shots at JFK was too tempting for him to resist. But trying to make the assassination a logical choice is something that I think is probably impossible for most of us to grasp.
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The Epstein book "Legend" is, I think, greatly overlooked. Yes, he fell for Angelton's theory that Oswald was a KGB asset or agent but the book has a great deal of information about Oswald's time in the Marines especially at Atsugi. Epstein interviewed about 35 Marines who were in Oswald's unit (MACS-1), some at the same time he was there, and their description of the security is stunning. Essentially none. Many people on the base were aware of the flights; they didn't know where it went but some suspected they were flown over the USSR.
And as you mentioned before, several Marines said that when Oswald came out of the brig he was completely different. Very angry and distant. From their account the brig was a very tough experience for people to go through. Brutal.
As to the Soviets: I still don't know what they questioned him about. Nosenko said they didn't know about his U-2 knowledge (What? They didn't ask him about his Marine experience?) while others said they did but he didn't know anything that they already knew. I do think that after the attempted suicide they considered him to erratic and nutty to really use.
Thanks Steve, I will put that book on my list. Yes, the brig was reportedly brutal. Plus I think that LHO’s ego just wasn’t able to cope with the situation.
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Most of us cannot fathom what must have been going through the mind of someone cowardly enough to take a high powered rifle and shoot (ambush) an unarmed man from behind. There are a lot of contradictions in what we do have evidence of. He writes in the same letter of “killing Americans in uniform,” and also of living a normal happy and peaceful life in the USSR. Frankly I do not believe that khe had any experience or information that would be of much interest the Soviet intelligence community. And I suspect that LHO also knew that. So, I disagree with your idea.
So you think Oswald felt that his military security clearance background would hopefully merit him a menial labor factory job in his new, decidedly militaristic, country ?
That being the case He should have been quite happy then with that sort of normal happy menial labor factory job he dreamed of & was graciously awarded with then ?
Yes?
Or do you think HE had greater expectations for what professional position the communists would consider he merited based on his background ?
Remember , we are talking here about what Oswald dreamed of & for himself , not the low regard with which the communists actually esteemed him .
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So you think Oswald felt that his military security clearance background would hopefully merit him a menial labor factory job in his new, decidedly militaristic, country ?
That being the case He should have been quite happy then with that sort of normal happy menial labor factory job he dreamed of & was graciously awarded with then ?
Yes?
Or do you think HE had greater expectations for what professional position the communists would consider he merited based on his background ?
Remember , we are talking here about what Oswald dreamed of & for himself , not the low regard with which the communists actually esteemed him .
In my opinion, LHO mostly just wanted to “moon” the U.S. I don’t think that he had thought a whole lot about what he thought he might be doing in the USSR. I doubt that LHO would have been happy for very long regardless of where he was or what he was doing.
I am not trying to make a comparison. But do you think that Adolph Hitler would have been happy if he had been able to conquer the entire world?
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A Soviet military intelligence officer and double agent, Pyotr Popov, told the CIA in 1958 that the Soviets had acquired operational details of the U2. According to the accounts when the CIA was told about it they were stunned. If you do a search for: "Pyotr Popov and U-2" you'll get the details.
Short version: Oswald didn't have any information that the Soviets already knew.
And if you read the Epstein book "Legend", you'll learn that Oswald didn't know much about the U2 that the other Marines in his unit didn't know. They - Oswald and his fellow radar operators - watched the U2 take off on their screens and then land. Soviet radar operators could see much of this too (except for the landing/taking off).
Thanks Steve,
But Why would any of that prevent a disturbed individual like Oswald from believing he knew more than all the rest, and therefore had more to offer than all the rest.
Not talking about reality here, we are talking about what the grandiose imaginations of an obviously mentally disturbed individual were
In fact did not Oswald have history of considering himself to be more knowledgeable than those around him?
I came across this report that Oswald even brought up the fact of o his military security knowledge at the Embassy before he was even granted admission .
Do you consider this to be an erroneous report about what he was saying to gain soviet citizenship ?
The Incredible, Amazing, Disturbing, Mysterious Story of Lee Harvey Oswald
Phillip BartlingPhillip Bartling
Phillip Bartling
Owner/Editor @The Philthy Times--If you want to know, read the book. "Lessons From a Nuclear War" It's cheap! Shareable e-book is just $4.95 on Amazon!
Published Apr 2, 2022
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At first, Oswald was denied Soviet Citizenship and ordered to leave Russia, but he attempted suicide by cutting his wrist, and he was held in a psychiatric hospital for a time, after which he appeared at the US Embassy in front of both American and Russian officials, and during that meeting Oswald revealed that he was a former Marine who’d possessed a top secret security clearance and that he was willing to give the Russians “radar secrets.”
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In my opinion, LHO mostly just wanted to “moon” the U.S. I don’t think that he had thought a whole lot about what he thought he might be doing in the USSR. I doubt that LHO would have been happy for very long regardless of where he was or what he was doing.
How could he not be thinking of what his new day to day life in a new country would consist of ,starting life over ?
Especially considering his beliefs on how the common working class was being screwed in the country he was leaving in his rear view mirror ?
You just got done posting his own words where speaks of living a " HAPPY NORMAL LIFE" !
How could he be thinking of living a "HAPPY NORMAL LIFE" removed from thinking about what he would be doing day to day ?
Quote from: Charles Collins on Today at 01:26:09 PM
The last sentence visible in that image of the letter to Robert Oswald probably best answers the question that Watson Phillips asked. LHO himself wrote that he wanted to lead a “normal happy and peaceful life” in the USSR.
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How could he not be thinking of what his new day to day life in a new country would consist of ,starting life over ?
Especially considering his beliefs on how the common working class was being screwed in the country he was leaving in his rear view mirror ?
You just got done posting his own words where speaks of living a " HAPPY NORMAL LIFE" !
How could he be thinking of living a "HAPPY NORMAL LIFE" removed from thinking about what he would be doing day to day ?
I don’t have any way to know what he was thinking. You asked my opinion. I gave my opinion. There is a difference in “not thinking a whole lot” and not thinking at all. Don’t you agree?
The last sentence visible in that image of the letter to Robert Oswald probably best answers the question that Watson Phillips asked. LHO himself wrote that he wanted to lead a “normal happy and peaceful life” in the USSR.[/b]
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How could he not be thinking of what his new day to day life in a new country would consist of ,starting life over ?
Especially considering his beliefs on how the common working class was being screwed in the country he was leaving in his rear view mirror ?
You just got done posting his own words where speaks of living a " HAPPY NORMAL LIFE" !
How could he be thinking of living a "HAPPY NORMAL LIFE" removed from thinking about what he would be doing day to day ?
Quote from: Charles Collins on Today at 01:26:09 PM
I don’t have any way to know what he was thinking. You asked my opinion. I gave my opinion. There is a difference in “not thinking a whole lot” and not thinking at all. Don’t you agree?
The last sentence visible in that image of the letter to Robert Oswald probably best answers the question that Watson Phillips asked. LHO himself wrote that he wanted to lead a “normal happy and peaceful life” in the USSR.
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This book states that Oswald felt he had cards to play based on his security clearance before he had ever been allowed to stay in Russia .
Had you ever heard this ?
The Incredible, Amazing, Disturbing, Mysterious Story of Lee Harvey Oswald
Phillip BartlingPhillip Bartling
Phillip Bartling
Owner/Editor @The Philthy Times--If you want to know, read the book. "Lessons From a Nuclear War" It's cheap! Shareable e-book is just $4.95 on Amazon!
Published Apr 2, 2022
+ Follow
At first, Oswald was denied Soviet Citizenship and ordered to leave Russia, but he attempted suicide by cutting his wrist, and he was held in a psychiatric hospital for a time, after which he appeared at the US Embassy in front of both American and Russian officials, and during that meeting Oswald revealed that he was a former Marine who’d possessed a top secret security clearance and that he was willing to give the Russians “radar secrets.”
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Here's an account of Oswald's reactions right after the U-2 flight with Gary Powers was shot down. It's one given by his first girlfriend Ella German. She said he was worried that the Soviets
people might hold him accountable or "damage" him in some way for the flight. He also told her that Americans were hunting him down (?!) in the USSR and that if he returned to the US they would "kill" him. This is from the Mailer book "Oswald's Tale."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12309546031/Keytdwctcxhme9n/oswald on u2.JPG)
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Here's an account of Oswald's reactions right after the U-2 flight with Gary Powers was shot down. It's one given by his first girlfriend Ella German. She said he was worried that the Soviet people would hold him accountable for the flight. He also told her that Americans were hunting him down in the USSR (?) and that if he returned to the US they would "kill" him. This is from the Mailer book "Oswald's Tale."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12309546031/Keytdwctcxhme9n/oswald on u2.JPG)
For some strange reason that story about what LHO reportedly told Ella German reminds me of a time I was at a general aviation airport at an observation area watching the planes landing and taking off. I happened to have a hand held scanner radio receiver tuned to the tower frequency so that I could hear the communications. I was on the top level of some stadium type seats and leaning on the rail with the radio receiver in hand. A nearby man and wife approached the area and she asked her husband what I was doing. With a straight face, he told her that I was controlling the airplanes that were coming and going with my remote controller. ;D
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This book states that Oswald felt he had cards to play based on his security clearance before he had ever been allowed to stay in Russia .
Had you ever heard this ?
The Incredible, Amazing, Disturbing, Mysterious Story of Lee Harvey Oswald
Phillip BartlingPhillip Bartling
Phillip Bartling
Owner/Editor @The Philthy Times--If you want to know, read the book. "Lessons From a Nuclear War" It's cheap! Shareable e-book is just $4.95 on Amazon!
Published Apr 2, 2022
+ Follow
At first, Oswald was denied Soviet Citizenship and ordered to leave Russia, but he attempted suicide by cutting his wrist, and he was held in a psychiatric hospital for a time, after which he appeared at the US Embassy in front of both American and Russian officials, and during that meeting Oswald revealed that he was a former Marine who’d possessed a top secret security clearance and that he was willing to give the Russians “radar secrets.”
I suggest you read something more reliable. Here’s the truth regarding LHO’s (not top secret) security clearance:
While in the Marines, Lee Harvey Oswald was granted a security clearance to handle classified matter up to and including "confidential".
Security Clearance Level: Oswald's clearance allowed him access to information classified as "confidential".
Reason for Clearance: His training as a radar operator required a security clearance.
Documented Clearance: A May 1957 document stated that he was "granted final clearance to handle classified matter up to and including confidential after careful check of local records had disclosed no derogatory data".
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+type+of+security+clearance+did+oswald+have+while+in+the+marines&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS922US923&oq=what+type+of+security+clearance+did+oswald+have+while+in+the+marines&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTMzMTE0ajBqN6gCE7ACAeIDBBgBIF_xBYlfXo03ad3O&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
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Here's an account of Oswald's reactions right after the U-2 flight with Gary Powers was shot down. It's one given by his first girlfriend Ella German. She said he was worried that the Soviet people would hold him accountable for the flight. He also told her that Americans were hunting him down in the USSR (?) and that if he returned to the US they would "kill" him. This is from the Mailer book "Oswald's Tale."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12309546031/Keytdwctcxhme9n/oswald on u2.JPG)
I really don't know what to make of who were these "Americans" were or how they became interested in him and for what reason ?
What were they doing in Russia ?
The Russians on the other hand , as we have heard throughout this thread knew everything that Oswald had to offer which then added up to him being worthless to them so I don't really understand how they would be blaming him for anything?
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I suggest you read something more reliable. Here’s the truth regarding LHO’s (not top secret) security clearance:
While in the Marines, Lee Harvey Oswald was granted a security clearance to handle classified matter up to and including "confidential".
Security Clearance Level: Oswald's clearance allowed him access to information classified as "confidential".
Reason for Clearance: His training as a radar operator required a security clearance.
Documented Clearance: A May 1957 document stated that he was "granted final clearance to handle classified matter up to and including confidential after careful check of local records had disclosed no derogatory data".
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+type+of+security+clearance+did+oswald+have+while+in+the+marines&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS922US923&oq=what+type+of+security+clearance+did+oswald+have+while+in+the+marines&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTMzMTE0ajBqN6gCE7ACAeIDBBgBIF_xBYlfXo03ad3O&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
So I take it you believe Oswald was a humble type of individual, not the type to exaggerate and overinflate his own intelligence & importance in describing himself ?
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Yuri Nosenko said the Soviets didn't know he had any connection with the U-2 flights and apparently Oswald didn't admit to. However, I've also read that they did ask him about the U-2 and supposedly he gave them information they already knew. So who knows?
Mr. KLEIN. Who [Oswald] had been a radar operator and had worked on a base from which U-2 airplanes took off and landed, that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB to speak to him, to find out if he knew any of this information?
Mr. NOSENKO. Mr. Klein, I understand your position, but we didn't know that he had any connection with U-2 flights. That is one thing. And if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written by Mr. Epstein in the book, it is a little bit from the air taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how important for KGB to know about such base that base. We knew it in the fifties when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950, 1951, 1952. We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi base, and we knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, we didn't know a word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2 flights.
Mr. KLEIN. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of information about that when he wanted to defect, is that correct ?
Mr. NOSENKO. No.
Dear Steve M.,
"So, who knows?"
LOL!
Do you have any the idea what the true reason was for Nosenko's contacting the CIA in Geneva in June 1962 and claiming that he desperately needed $250 worth of Swiss francs in exchange for two (or was it four?) pieces of "intel"?
Hint: You won't find the true answer in Mangold's Cold Warrior, Wise's Molehunt, or Weiner's Legacy of Ashes (if they even write about it, that is).
You'll find it in the 2007 Yale University Press book, Spy Wars: Moles, Mysteries, and Deadly Games, by Nosenko's former primary CIA case officer, Tennent H. Bagley.
FWIW, Bagley was on the fast track to become Director of CIA before Nosenko reappeared in Geneva two months after the assassination of JFK, as directed by General Oleg Gribanov, and decided to use what he'd been told to say to Bagley and (probable KGB mole George Kisevalter) -- that he had been Oswald's case officer in Moscow and that he therefore knew for a fact that the KGB had absolutely nothing to do with the former Marine U-2 radar operator during the two-and-one-half years he lived in the USSR -- as his "ticket" to physically defect to the U.S.
Former CIA officer W. Alan Messer has shown in his 2013 article, "In Pursuit of the Squared Circle: The Nosenko Theories Revisited," that when Nosenko decided to "go rogue" in late January 1964, the KGB had no choice but to support his bona fides in the U.S. through Kremlin-loyal Aleksei Kulak (J. Edgar Hoover's shielded-from-CIA FEDORA), Boris Orekhov (SHAMROCK), Igor Kochnov (KITTYHAWK), and Valery Yurchenko, et al.
Have you read Spy Wars, yet?
If not, you really should, you know. Because anyone who lends Nosenko any credence on anything is obviously quite . . . well . . . ignorant.
I've already told you how you can read it for free.
Factoid: After Bagley had informed Edward J. Epstein about the Nosenko case for his 1978 book, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald, and after Epstein had interviewed Richard Helms, James Angleton and William Sullivan, et al., Bagley proofread the manuscript and corrected the most egregious errors in it.
-- Tom
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So I take it you believe Oswald was a humble type of individual, not the type to exaggerate and overinflate his own intelligence & importance in describing himself ?
No, not at all.
At the point in time in question, LHO was apparently desperate and reportedly tried whatever he thought might give himself a chance to stay in the USSR. LHO reportedly "attempted suicide," offered" to tell them "what he knew" from his time in the USMC, showed the Soviets that he "intended" to give up his passport and U.S. citizenship, etc.. I have read that he wanted the Soviets to allow him to attend the (free) university in Moscow. However due to the dire circumstances (in that they had indicated to him that they were planning to send him away instead of even letting him stay in the USSR) I believe that he swallowed hard and graciously accepted what they assigned him in Minsk. Then he apparently after a relatively short time realized that he no longer desired to stay in Russia.
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My understanding of the explanation for Russia’s ability to shoot down U2 spy planes is that the development of their anti-aircraft missiles finally reached a point where their missiles could ascend to a high enough altitude. Before that, the U2 spy planes were simply out of their reach. I believe that due to the fact that this happened while LHO was in Russia is just another one of those “strange” coincidences that happened. I ask: what could LHO have possibly told them about the U2 that would have enabled their missiles to reach higher altitudes. I don’t believe LHO’s presence in Russia had anything at all to do with that development.
Charles: We can add this to the "What did Oswald tell the Soviets about the U-2?" question. It's Nechiporneko from "Passport to Assassination". He was one of the three KGB agents at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City that met Oswald. He says that after the assassination he examined Oswald's case file. Here is what he said about the interrogation of Oswald. It supports Nosenko's view that they didn't ask Oswald about the matter.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12315802053/Keyy323m0uwrjft/Oswald U2.JPG)
I was also wondering exactly how many - or even if any - U2 flights took off from Atsugi at the time Oswald was working in the radar "bubble". Oswald was at Atsugi from late September to October 1957 when it seems that most of the U2 flights originated from US bases in Europe or Turkey and not Atsugi. The focus/concern at that time was the Suez Crisis. As you can see below from '56 to '59 the vast number of flights were sent over the Middle East. Those were flights that apparently all took off from the US base in Turkey.
I don't have the exact number that took off from Atsugi but I think it was, at the time Oswald was there (again about a month) small. It's conceivable to me that none of the flights took off when Oswald was assigned to radar operations. But I think the evidence indicates at least one? And as both Nosenko and Nechiporenko said, the KGB did not know about any U-2 flights from Atsugi. So is it possible there weren't any when Oswald was there? Yes, I am really pulling stuff out of my you-know-what here.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12312495382/Keyvmlj3nv4v4d6/u-2 flight history.JPG)
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Charles: We can add this to the "What did Oswald tell the Soviets about the U-2?" question. It's Nechiporneko from "Passport to Assassination". He was one of the three KGB agents at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City that met Oswald. He says that after the assassination he examined Oswald's case file. Here is what he said about the interrogation of Oswald. It supports Nosenko's view that they didn't ask Oswald about the matter.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12315802053/Keyy323m0uwrjft/Oswald U2.JPG)
Also this. At the time Oswald was at Atsugi, late September to October 1957, most of the U2 flights originated from US bases in Europe or Turkey. The focus/concern at that time was the Suez Crisis. As you can see below from '56 to '59 the vast number of flights were sent over the Middle East. And those were flights that took off from the US base in Turkey.
I don't have the exact number that took off from Atsugi but I think it was, at the time Oswald was there (about a month) quite small. It's conceivable to me that none of the flights took off when Oswald was assigned to radar operations. And as both Nosenko and Nechiporenko said, the KGB did not know about any U-2 flights from Atsugi. Yes, just a guess.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12312495382/Keyvmlj3nv4v4d6/u-2 flight history.JPG)
Thanks Steve, that's some good stuff. The Gary Powers U2 flight took off from Pakistan. That's a long long way from Japan.
It's conceivable to me that none of the flights took off when Oswald was assigned to radar operations. And as both Nosenko and Nechiporenko said, the KGB did not know about any U-2 flights from Atsugi. Yes, just a guess.
I would tend to agree with that idea. I would also tend to think that, even if there were a few U2 flights from Atsugi during that time, they would have taken considerable measures to keep as many eyes as possible from actually seeing that plane. If the Soviets were unaware of it being at Atsugi, that in itself is credible evidence that it was being kept as secret as possible. And I think that a blip on a radar screen isn't likely to indicate to LHO or any of the other radar operators very much about the actual aircraft. Do you know whether or not any of LHO's coworkers have said whether or not they were aware of the U2 being at Atsugi during the time period in question?