JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Watson Phillips on April 07, 2025, 09:02:47 PM
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With an elevated 6th floor shot coming from the left of Kennedy, penetrating at an angle sufficient to blow out the right side of His skull how did a large portions of his head fly almost directly left , up and over his head, come to land on the far left drivers side of the trunk where Jackie grabbed it ?
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Jackie is looking directly at him from the left as the shot blows out the right side of his head , yet her immediate reaction is to look straight back behind her. right
You can tell before She ever gets on the trunk that she is sure every bit of material flew directly behind them to the left, over his head to the left ,opposite the direction of his wound on the right side of his head.
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Jackie testified that she doesn't even remember crawling back onto the trunk. You are apparently assuming a lot of things based on how this event appears to you.
Frankly, I think Jackie just reacted (instinctively) out of fear and shock. This instinctive reaction is controlled by the amygdala area of the brain. The amygdala is buried deep inside the brain and will cause us to automatically react to life threatening events very very quickly, before any thoughts about the situation can even form in thought processing areas of the brain. I experienced something similar when a snake struck at my leg and I just automatically reacted by jumping backwards before I even knew what was happening. My memory of this is always in super-slow-motion, and the sound of the snake thumping on the ground after it missed my leg seemed to be very loud (much louder than I would have expected). Thankfully, in Jackie's case, Clint Hill made it onto the back of the limo and pushed her back into her seat.
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With an elevated 6th floor shot coming from the left of Kennedy, penetrating at an angle sufficient to blow out the right side of His skull how did a large portions of his head fly almost directly left , up and over his head, come to land on the far left drivers side of the trunk where Jackie grabbed it ?
Looking at Frame 313, it is clear that the debris was not propelled directly away from the shooter in a narrow jet. Instead, debris was scattered in the a wide 3-D arc. Some propelled upward, some downward, some to the left and some to the right. Some of it even went pretty much straight up. Look at frame 313.
A small portion of the brain, like an inch across would be small enough that if it went upward could be effected by the relative wind to the limousine, 18 to 23 mph, to blow back onto the trunk.
You are using "Arm Chair" mental experiments. Not "Real Word" analysis where we observe the results of a real bullet strike on an object, like a taped melon or a human head. Forgot about "Narrow Jet directly opposite the shooter's position." Think instead of "Wide 3-D arc for debris scattering."
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Jackie testified that she doesn't even remember crawling back onto the trunk. You are apparently assuming a lot of things based on how this event appears to you.
Frankly, I think Jackie just reacted (instinctively) out of fear and shock. This instinctive reaction is controlled by the amygdala area of the brain. The amygdala is buried deep inside the brain and will cause us to a
Thanks Charles , so what do you think about the parts of his head ending up on the left edge of the trunk with the right side of his head being blown out from a bullet coming downward from a 6th floor height to his left as he was seated right side of car ?
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Looking at Frame 313, it is clear that the debris was not propelled directly away from the shooter in a narrow jet. Instead, debris was scattered in the a wide 3-D arc. Some propelled upward, some downward, some to the left and some to the right. Some of it even went pretty much straight up. Look at frame 313.
/quote]
Thanks Joe,
I can see it be propelled from the right side of his head in every 3D direction except having enough elevation to travel to the extreme left back over his head to land almost on the edge of the trunk's left side.
Especially given the fact that this large piece attained enough height to land in that far left spot of a moving vehicle which undoubtedly had picked speed by that moment of impact given the driver had been trained to hit the gas after the gunfire had begun.
Jackie never looks in any other direction of a 3D field other than directly behind her.
She immediately instinctively looks in the direction she saw his body parts go , backwards.
Was any other piece of his head ever recovered from the street or car other than one Jackie grabbed ?
If so where was in located in relation to the President ?
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SA Clint Hill from his spread eagle position atop the JFK Limo said he saw a HOLE in the BACK of JFK's Head. The Parkland Dr's reported a BLOWOUT EXIT WOUND in the BACK of JFK's Head. The FBI Photo of the JFK Limo Back Seat area shows a Basketball Size Blood/Brain Matter Stain on the very Top of the Limo Back Rest. ALL of this corroborates an Exit Wound in the BACK of JFK's Head.
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Where is the location / locations of discovery of these three large pieces of skull that in the little information provided appear to have arrived late to the party in Bethesda , from Dallas.
The large pieces of skull delivered by Secret Service agents.
It seems to me that in a murder investigation the location of where each of these skull pieces were found would be carefully documented ?
Anyone know where each of these skull pieces were found ?
.s.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
Three skull bone fragments were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). "
After midnight, three skull fragments discovered by the Secret Service were brought to the pathologists.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
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SA Clint Hill from his spread eagle position atop the JFK Limo said he saw a HOLE in the BACK of JFK's Head.
As usual, you take your own interpretation of a witnesses words and put your own self serving spin on them. Let's see with our own two eyes where Clint Hill was referring.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g253p5fw/Clintshowem.gif)
These authenticated autopsy photos don't lie, and by using technology undreamed of 60+ years ago we see how these smoothly rotating images are recombined and definitely prove that neither image was manipulated and are exact representations of what was observed on the Twenty Second of November Nineteen Sixty Three.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZy7skNV/BOH-JFK.gif)
Therefore there was no large back of head wound, only a bullet wound and SCIENCE proves it.
And further proof is in the Zapruder film where only Kennedy's head is violently thrust forward at the time of impact.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pd9xyFhr/tink.gif)
So Royell, stop spreading disinformation because Forensic SCIENCE wins every time! Thumb1:
JohnM
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With an elevated 6th floor shot coming from the left of Kennedy, penetrating at an angle sufficient to blow out the right side of His skull how did a large portions of his head fly almost directly left , up and over his head, come to land on the far left drivers side of the trunk where Jackie grabbed it ?
Crosswind?
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Crosswind?
There was a strong breeze blowing up Elm street.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJp9cTRf/Muchmore2.gif)
And the back trunk of the Limo doesn't show any sizable chunks of matter in the Zapruder film and if you look at Jackie's hands, she doesn't appear to be grabbing at anything.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LsSS6Y3/jackieontrunk.gif)
JohnM
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Like I said, the JFK Assassination has passed the Old Timey JFK Assassination "Researcher's" by. SA Hill did a couple interviews around the time Thompson came out with his 2nd Book. And much like Humes during his Q/A by ARRB, Hill's story was more detailed than the Old Saw Material you continue to rely on.
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Like I said, the JFK Assassination has passed the Old Timey JFK Assassination "Researcher's" by. SA Hill did a couple interviews around the time Thompson came out with his 2nd Book. And much like Humes during his Q/A by ARRB, Hill's story was more detailed than the Old Saw Material you continue to rely on.
Like I said, the JFK Assassination has passed the Old Timey JFK Assassination "Researcher's" by.
If you are referring to me, you're way out of line because I wasn't even born when the assassination happened! Hahaha!
And my computerized morphing graphical techniques are a relatively new innovation which an "Old Timey Researcher" like yourself, would have paid a Kings Ransom to access.
BTW with all your constant old TV show/movie references you have aged yourself to be around 70 and thus explains why your technical knowledge is so pathetic!, which isn't a problem but your generation is the epitome of "Old Timey JFK Assassination "Researcher's"". And still, you and your Old Time Crew haven't solved diddly squat. Why is that, Royell?
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/confused-senior-citizen-using-computer-confused-senior-citizen-using-computer-staring-screen-feeling-tired-151680997.jpg)
SA Hill did a couple interviews around the time Thompson came out with his 2nd Book.
Josiah Thompson? He's the very definition of "Old Timey Researcher", and now you put your faith in him? Hypocrite!
And much like Humes during his Q/A by ARRB, Hill's story was more detailed than the Old Saw Material you continue to rely on.
Written story's are prone to biased interpretation, whereas visual representations tell a rock solid FACT which are not open to debate!
(https://i.postimg.cc/g253p5fw/Clintshowem.gif)
JohnM
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Where is the location / locations of discovery of these three large pieces of skull that in the little information provided appear to have arrived late to the autopsy party in Bethesda , from Dallas.
The large pieces of skull delivered by Secret Service agents, " After Midnight "
It seems to me that in a murder investigation the location of where each of these skull pieces were found would be carefully documented ?
Anyone know where each of these skull pieces were found ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
.s.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
Three skull bone fragments were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). "
After midnight, three skull fragments discovered by the Secret Service were brought to the pathologists.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
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Crosswind?
Where is the location / locations of discovery of these three large pieces of skull that in the little information provided appear to have arrived late to the autopsy party in Bethesda , from Dallas.
The large pieces of skull delivered by Secret Service agents, " After Midnight "
It seems to me that in a murder investigation the location of where each of these skull pieces were found would be carefully documented ?
Anyone know where each of these skull pieces were found ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
.s.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
Three skull bone fragments were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). "
After midnight, three skull fragments discovered by the Secret Service were brought to the pathologists.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
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Looking at Frame 313, it is clear that the debris was not propelled directly away from the shooter in a narrow jet. Instead, debris was scattered in the a wide 3-D arc. Some propelled upward, some downward, some to the left and some to the right. Some of it even went pretty much straight up. Look at frame 313.
A small portion of the brain, like an inch across would be small enough that if it went upward could be effected by the relative wind to the limousine, 18 to 23 mph, to blow back onto the trunk.
You are using "Arm Chair" mental experiments. Not "Real Word" analysis where we observe the results of a real bullet strike on an object, like a taped melon or a human head. Forgot about "Narrow Jet directly opposite the shooter's position." Think instead of "Wide 3-D arc for debris scattering."
Where is the location / locations of discovery of these three large pieces of skull that in the little information provided appear to have arrived late to the autopsy party in Bethesda , from Dallas.
The large pieces of skull delivered by Secret Service agents, " After Midnight "
It seems to me that in a murder investigation the location of where each of these skull pieces were found would be carefully documented ?
Anyone know where each of these skull pieces were found ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
.s.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
Three skull bone fragments were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). "
After midnight, three skull fragments discovered by the Secret Service were brought to the pathologists.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
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Where is the location / locations of discovery of these three large pieces of skull that in the little information provided appear to have arrived late to the autopsy party in Bethesda , from Dallas.
The large pieces of skull delivered by Secret Service agents, " After Midnight "
It seems to me that in a murder investigation the location of where each of these skull pieces were found would be carefully documented ?
Anyone know where each of these skull pieces were found ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
.s.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
Three skull bone fragments were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). "
After midnight, three skull fragments discovered by the Secret Service were brought to the pathologists.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
The definition of the Zapruder Filmed has improved much. Better than "The Lost Bullet" (2011) Z Film and that was Cutting Edge back then. Take a look at a high definition Z Film. Specifically the film segment where Jackie crawls out of the back seat and onto the trunk lid. Focus on the area where the trunk lid/metal air vent section, and the back seat meet. You can see the Blood/Brain Matter coloring as it contrasts with the Dark Blue Limo. This "color contrast" matches up with the Basketball Size Blood/Brain Matter stain on the Top of the Back Seat. ALL are Connected Proof of a Blowout EXIT Wound in the BACK of JFK's Head.
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After midnight, three skull fragments discovered by the Secret Service were brought to the pathologists.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments"
".s.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
Three skull bone fragments were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). "
Where is the location / locations of discovery of these three large pieces of skull that in the little information provided appear to have arrived late to the autopsy party in Bethesda , from Dallas.
The large pieces of skull "discovered" & delivered by Secret Service agents, " After Midnight " to Bethesda.
It seems to me that in a murder investigation the location of where each of these skull pieces were found would be carefully documented ?
And how convenient that all three large pieces of skull were discovered by the Secret Service , and nobody else ?
Anyone know where each of these skull pieces were found ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
Bueller ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces , literally "discovered" by the Secret Service, at the midnight hour, coincidentally fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
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With an elevated 6th floor shot coming from the left of Kennedy, penetrating at an angle sufficient to blow out the right side of His skull how did a large portions of his head fly almost directly left , up and over his head, come to land on the far left drivers side of the trunk where Jackie grabbed it ?
You need to examine the stabilized Zapruder film showing Mrs. Kennedy partially on the trunk lid that John Mytton very kindly provided within this thread. Her actions do not support the theory that she "grabbed" anything, and neither do Clint Hill's memories. Read what he told the Warren Commission during testimony compared to what he was saying in recent years. He stated to the WC that he "thought" [he] saw something come off the back of the car" but that he couldn't be sure. He also stated "I know that the next day, "we" found a portion of skull in the street", or words to that effect. Actually, no SS agents found anything that was turned into the SS, other than Sam Kinney, the driver of the Queen Mary who stated that he found a piece of skull beneath Nellie Connally's seat (which can also be seen in flight off the president's head in the Zapruder film) which he placed in his pocket and later turned in. All fragments that were found in Dallas have been accounted for with the exception of the Weitzman fragment. All were found near the manhole/gutter on the south side of Elm Street, except the one found by Kinney inside the limousine.
In the Zapruder film, as soon as Mrs. Kennedy's upper body is out of the seat and she is starting to crawl, the moment her right white cotton gloved hand makes contact with the highly polished finish of the trunk lid (like the rest of the car), her right hand slides forward, out from under her, causing her to slam down onto her left forearm. She keeps her right hand flat against the surface of the car as she brings that hand back toward her, and lifts herself back up as she startes to turn around to face the limousine.
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After midnight, three skull fragments discovered by the Secret Service were brought to the pathologists.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments"
".s.[31] They noted the largest fragment had what appeared to be an exit wound, confirmed when X-rays found metal fragments
Three skull bone fragments were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). "
Where is the location / locations of discovery of these three large pieces of skull that in the little information provided appear to have arrived late to the autopsy party in Bethesda , from Dallas.
The large pieces of skull "discovered" & delivered by Secret Service agents, " After Midnight " to Bethesda.
It seems to me that in a murder investigation the location of where each of these skull pieces were found would be carefully documented ?
And how convenient that all three large pieces of skull were discovered by the Secret Service , and nobody else ?
Anyone know where each of these skull pieces were found ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
Bueller ?
Someone must know where each of these 3 large skull pieces , literally "discovered" by the Secret Service, at the midnight hour, coincidentally fitting the gaping hole in his head so perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle were found ?
Anyone ?
Sam Kinney, Seymour Weitzman, David Burros and Billy Harper all found skull fragments. Except for the Kinney fragment, the others were found several yards AHEAD of where the car was positioned at the time of the fatal shot.
You can read Seymour Weitzman's WC testimony, where he describes its location in the street down by the gutter on the south side of Elm Street.
David Burros 2 inch skull fragment was found in the grass about 15 inches south of the curb, and 40 inches north east of the manhole cover in the infield grass. This fragment was sent to Washington D.C. (see attached letter from Dr. George Burkley, JFK's personal physician).
The Billy "Harper fragment" was found further down from the Burros fragment lying in the grass, which was a 3 inch skull fragment . He turned it over to his uncle, a Dr. in Dallas, who then turned it in to the SS.
(https://i.imgur.com/EX7OVpA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/b9IVdjR.jpg)
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So we have SS Agents such as Hill detailing what they saw up close and personal and it does NOT match what we see on the Zapruder Film? Why do You think that is? This is why the Original NIX FILM has been missing for decades. The ORIGINAL NIX FILM would "check" the Zapruder Film from the other side of Elm St. But, they did miss those 3 frames showing the Lee Bowers, "WHITE Shirt Man" moving Up-The-Steps. I just discovered another piece to this "White Shirt Man" Puzzle. ......... Stay Tuned ................
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Sam Kinney, Seymour Weitzman, David Burros and Billy Harper all found skull fragments. Except for the Kinney fragment, the others were found several yards AHEAD of where the car was positioned at the time of the fatal shot.
You can read Seymour Weitzman's WC testimony, where he describes its location in the street down by the gutter on the south side of Elm Street.
David Burros 2 inch skull fragment was found in the grass about 15 inches south of the curb, and 40 inches north east of the manhole cover in the infield grass. This fragment was sent to Washington D.C. (see attached letter from Dr. George Burkley, JFK's personal physician).
The Billy "Harper fragment" was found further down from the Burros fragment lying in the grass, which was a 3 inch skull fragment . He turned it over to his uncle, a Dr. in Dallas, who then turned it in to the SS.
(https://i.imgur.com/EX7OVpA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/b9IVdjR.jpg)
So all skull fragments were found on the drivers side of the vehicle ?
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So all skull fragments were found on the drivers side of the vehicle ?
In his WC testimony, Clint Hill said there was a portion of the skull lying in the seat of the car, next to JFK but didn't specify where, exactly. But you must remember,
The top of JFK's head-not the right side or the rear-of his head-was shot off. The wound extended from the top over to the right side and into the top rear,
but not the right side of his head was blown off. What we see in the Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films, flying into the air is the top
of his head. Those fragments all landed near the manhole cover/gutter a few yards ahead of whjere the car was at the time the fatal
shot was fired.
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In his WC testimony, Clint Hill said there was a portion of the skull lying in the seat of the car, next to JFK but didn't specify where, exactly. But you must remember,
The top of JFK's head-not the right side or the rear-of his head-was shot off. The wound extended from the top over to the right side and into the top rear,
but not the right side of his head was blown off. What we see in the Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films, flying into the air is the top
of his head. Those fragments all landed near the manhole cover/gutter a few yards ahead of whjere the car was at the time the fatal
shot was fired.
The official Warren Commision finding shows much more the right side of his head than the top .
"Warren Commission Exhibit 386 shows a head entrance wound which is distinct from the large right-side wound. Dr. Boswell told the HSCA in 1977 and the ARRB in 1996 that the entrance hole was actually inferred from beveling present on a late-arriving bone fragment which fit into a wound which was initially much larger than shown here, and which extended down to the entrance"
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The official Warren Commision finding shows much more the right side of his head than the top .
"Warren Commission Exhibit 386 shows a head entrance wound which is distinct from the large right-side wound. Dr. Boswell told the HSCA in 1977 and the ARRB in 1996 that the entrance hole was actually inferred from beveling present on a late-arriving bone fragment which fit into a wound which was initially much larger than shown here, and which extended down to the entrance"
But that WC exhibit wasn't drawn by the artist after viewing the autopsy materials. No one at that time except for Earl Warren saw the autopsy pictures. Below is a gif made of the two separate top of the head autopsy pictutes showing the massive amount of skull missing from the top of the head. Also, Mrs. Kennedy told Life Magazine writer Theodore White within 7 days of the assassination during his interview with her-in graphic detail-that she "Kept trying to keep the top of his head down. "Maybe I could keep his brains in". She repeated this to him twice. And she obviously pushed the piece of loose skull back into place that was hanging over the right side of his head, which hung over his entire temple area, and can clearly be seen in the Zapruder film, and the back of the head autopsy photos. Many people mistake this for the head wound, but it's the large flap of skull hanging over the temple area.
(http://)http://i.imgur.com/uQWA6QO.gifv (https://imgur.com/uQWA6QO)
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But that WC exhibit wasn't drawn by the artist after viewing the autopsy materials. No one at that time except for Earl Warren saw the autopsy pictures.
(http://)http://i.imgur.com/uQWA6QO.gifv (https://imgur.com/uQWA6QO)
So why did Sir Warren sign off on it's false representation in His official report ?
I sense we are now about to officially wade into the trusted weeds of non-sensical, confused, Magic Bullet type of confounded logic that crops up every time a normal question is asked about this dumpster fire of an investigation ?
Please prove me wrong ?
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So why did Sir Warren sign off on it's false representation in His official report ?
I sense we are now about to officially wade into the trusted weeds of non-sensical, confused, Magic Bullet type of confounded logic that crops up every time a normal question is asked about this dumpster fire of an investigation ?
Please prove me wrong ?
Earl Warren was a shyster. Plain and simple. He wouldn't allow any members of the commission to see the autopsy pictures. This has bothered me since the day I read it eons ago.
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This is what is Now Obvious when comparing what is depicted on the Zapruder Film with the REALITY of what Parkland Dr's, SS Agents, and Joe 6 Pack Eyewitnesses saw and Testified as to seeing. As technology permits ALL JFK Assassination Images to be seen in far greater detail, the more the Zapruder Film is exposed as being Bogus in specific crucial sequences of that "film".
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Earl Warren was a shyster. Plain and simple. He wouldn't allow any members of the commission to see the autopsy pictures. This has bothered me since the day I read it eons ago.
And the WC did NOT watch the Zapruder Film from start to finish. Never Happened.
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This is what is Now Obvious when comparing what is depicted on the Zapruder Film with the REALITY of what Parkland Dr's, SS Agents, and Joe 6 Pack Eyewitnesses saw and Testified as to seeing. As technology permits ALL JFK Assassination Images to be seen in far greater detail, the more the Zapruder Film is exposed as being Bogus in specific crucial sequences of that "film".
With all due respect, Royell, your interpretation of the Zapruder film is in error. There is nothing wrong with the Zapruder film, or any of the films taken the day of the assassination. There is, however, something wrong with your interpretation with the evidence. Once Mrs Kennedy began trying to put her husband's head back together as best she could (proven by her own words with what she told Theodore White) between Dealey Plaza and Parkland hospital, the doctors and nurses did not see the head in the same shape or form that Zapruder's camera captured it, simply because of Mrs. Kennedy's inadvertent handling of the crucial evidence. She closed part of the head wound when she put the long and wide flap of skull still attached by scalp-back into plat simply by flipping it up and back where it belonged. This altered the appearance of the head wound when the doctors saw it-not what the Zapruder film depicts because Mrs. Kennedy inadvertently destroyed the original appearance.
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Hey Steve. Jackie crawling across the Limo trunk lid is indicative of her mental state at that point in time. And upon arrival at Parkland, she was incapable of lighting her own cigarettes and they even brought Mayor Cabell's wife inside to sit beside her. Based on All of this, Jackie's memory concerning her attempted reassembly of the head of JFK is subject to question. Based on the Z Film, that Gaping Wound in the (R) Temple area would have been obvious to a blind man. And remember that both Newman and Sitzman said they saw JFK "HIT" in the (R) Temple Area. "Hit" = Entrance Not Exit. I can understand an Entrance Wound in the hair possibly being missed. Multiple Dr's missing that MESS we see on the Z Film? No way.
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Earl Warren was a shyster. Plain and simple. He wouldn't allow any members of the commission to see the autopsy pictures. This has bothered me since the day I read it eons ago.
I knew you were going to say that .
Thank you, Steve
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Members of the Warren Commission staff watched the Zapruder film for hours and hours and analyzed it frame by frame. This included viewing the reportedly much clearer original.
From Phil Shenon's "Cruel and Shocking Act."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12315851182/Keye1ulvf77pxyr/zapruder and warren commission.jpg)
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Members of the Warren Commission staff watched the Zapruder film for hours and hours and analyzed it frame by frame. Including the reportedly much clearer original.
From Phil Shenon's "Cruel and Shocking Act."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12315851182/Keye1ulvf77pxyr/zapruder and warren commission.jpg)
You notice it talks about "staff" with respect to viewing the Z Film. Not the actual WC voting members. All I have ever seen is verification of the actual members viewing those 35 mm slides. I think those 35 mm slides are the same slides that Josiah Thompson was eyeballing when he was on the Life payroll. Life had Zapruder himself on their payroll and Thompson too. Life did everything they could to help sew this assassination up tight.
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A large snip from “History Will Prove Us Right” by Howard Willens, page 273-278:
The Autopsy Photographs and X-rays
Securing testimony from Mrs. Kennedy had been difficult, but getting our hands on the autopsy photographs and X-rays proved even more so. Although the public might accept our delicate handling of Mrs. Kennedy, we doubted they would be as sympathetic to our failure to get the hard evidence that the autopsy materials represented. The Kennedy family had deep, long-term, emotional interests at stake but, for us, it was much more difficult to take a pass on this issue. We all believed we could not back down.
Most of the staff was convinced that the commission’s failure to consider these materials carefully in its report would be used to attack our competence and integrity. Specter had taken the testimony of the three autopsy doctors three months earlier, at a time when neither he nor the doctors had access to the autopsy X-rays and photographs. He and others were satisfied that the testimony of the doctors did accurately reflect the trajectory of the bullets and the nature of the wounds suffered by both Kennedy and Connally. However, the corpsman’s sketch introduced during this testimony was inaccurate as to the location of the wounds and to that extent inconsistent with that testimony.
Specter and other lawyers pressed Rankin hard on this issue, emphasizing the need for these materials in order to make more definitive judgments regarding key issues in the investigation. Specter believed that Secret Service inspector Thomas Kelley, who had reportedly talked to the attorney general about this matter, might not have fully appreciated why these materials were necessary and that the commission should present its own reasons to Robert Kennedy. At the commission meeting of April 30, Rankin obtained Warren’s approval to try and obtain access to the X-rays and photos.26
Specter thought that the autopsy records were “indispensable” in determining with certainty the origin of the shots and identifying any major variations between the autopsy images and the artist’s drawings used by the doctors in their testimony. He was convinced that James Humes, one of the autopsy doctors, could use the photographs and X-rays to pinpoint the exact location of the entrance wound on the president’s upper back, the exact location of the entrance wound on the back of the president’s head, and the exact area of his skull that was hit by the second bullet. In addition, Specter proposed that the specifics of Kennedy’s wounds be examined closely in the photographs and X-rays to determine whether they were characteristic of entrance wounds under the criteria used by the autopsy doctors and by the Dallas doctors who examined the president after he was shot. Specter proposed that Humes, after examining these materials, indicate whether he needed to make any changes in his earlier testimony. Unknown to Specter, the question of the commission’s access to these materials was still unresolved when I met with Katzenbach on June 17.27
I understood at this time that the attorney general had agreed to let Warren and Rankin see the autopsy materials. I urged Katzenbach to get Kennedy’s approval for Specter rather than Rankin to examine them. I told him that it was very important to have the most knowledgeable lawyer on the staff assume this responsibility and that Specter was known to the attorney general as the prosecutor who had successfully won the Roy Cohn Teamster case in Philadelphia.28
Katzenbach raised the question a few days later with Kennedy, who decided that Warren could view these materials on behalf of the commission, but that no one else could be present and the X-rays and photographs would remain in the possession of the custodian who brought them. Kennedy was understandably wary of any opportunity to copy them.
Warren promptly arranged to have the materials brought to his chambers at the Supreme Court. He looked at them reluctantly and only briefly. He reported back to Rankin, and presumably the other commission members, that the photographs were so gruesome that he did not believe that they should be included among the commission’s records. Due to Warren’s extreme distaste for these materials and his previous public commitment to publishing everything relied on by the commission, Rankin concluded that there was no possibility of Specter being permitted to view these materials to confirm the accuracy of Humes’s earlier testimony.
With the exception of Rankin, the commission’s lawyers considered this decision by Warren to be a serious mistake. I agreed. Without the autopsy photos, we had to deal only with a medical corpsman’s sketch made several months later based on a doctor’s memory of his examination of the patient. The sketch opened the door to all kinds of speculation about the wounds, and therefore the shots that caused the wounds, that could have been avoided easily if we had the X-rays and photos. We were right in the conclusions we drew from the corpsman’s sketches and the testimony of the doctors, but we could have supported our conclusions better if we had the documentary evidence as well as the medical testimony.
As it happened, our fears were realized and critics eagerly embraced the corpsman’s inaccurate sketch to question the commission’s conclusions about the nature of the wounds and the single-bullet analysis. David Belin later characterized it as “a disastrous decision” which “gave rise to wild speculation and rumor.” Belin attributed the decision to the Kennedy family, and especially Robert Kennedy, claiming that they “did not want these pictures and X-rays to become a matter of public display.” Belin believed passionately that the family’s “desire for privacy was outweighed by the need for public knowledge on what actually happened in Dallas on Nov. 22.” He worried that such deference to the Kennedy family was indicative of “a dangerous trend toward preferred treatment for high governmental officials.”29
Specter shared Belin’s assessment. He also attributed the decision to the Kennedy family and their worries that “those ghastly images might reach the public.” Specter believed this concern could have been met by including “an analysis of the autopsy materials in the commission report without including the images as a commission exhibit. That approach should have satisfied the Kennedy family.” Specter did not learn that Warren had examined the autopsy materials until long after the commission report was filed. He recalled that he and Belin had dinner together “after the commission nixed the photos and X-rays” and discussed resigning from the commission staff. But neither of them seriously considered doing that.30
It is clear that the Kennedy family’s objections to releasing the images found a sympathetic ear in Warren. As Redlich later recalled:
My impression, and I cannot be more precise than that, my impression was that the Kennedy family was concerned about the publicity, about a public display of the President’s skull in those pictures. The Chief Justice was very sensitive to that. He felt that that family had undergone just tremendous trauma, and he was very sensitive to that, perhaps by retrospect overly sensitive. But he was very sensitive to it. Now, I don’t believe that it would be fair to the Kennedys, at least on the basis of anything I know of, to conclude that it was because of their directly saying to the Chief Justice that we want it this way, that it was done this way. I have no information of that kind.31
I do not have any information of that kind either. Based on my conversations with Robert Kennedy, I believe that he might have been persuaded to let the autopsy materials be used for the forensic purposes described by Specter so long as they did not become part of the commission’s records. Because Warren responded so negatively to any commission use of the materials—with no apparent challenge from other members—Rankin and the staff never had the opportunity to develop such a proposal and present it to Robert Kennedy, with the strong endorsement that I believe Katzenbach and Miller would have provided.
Rankin, however, later defended Warren’s position on this question:
We thought we had good evidence from the doctors who were involved at the hospital in Dallas and also at the autopsy, and we did not want the President’s memory to be presented in that manner, and we had already promised the American people that the investigation, that everything that we obtained, except for such matters as involved national security, would be made available to them, so we would have had to publish it, if we used it ourselves.32
I did not find this explanation acceptable—and still don’t. It invited further questioning by the critics as to what else the commission may have excluded from its records to avoid embarrassing individuals or agencies. Once the commission had decided to suppress anything from its published records, including documents withheld in the name of national security, the withholding of the X-rays and photographs could have been explained in a way that I believe would have been accepted by the vast majority of the American public. Whatever criticism the commission might have received for such withholding would have been trivial compared with the criticism it did receive (and deserve) for not letting these materials be used by the testifying doctors to make certain that their testimony was accurate.
Willens was in a great position to witness and be an integral part of a tremendous amount of the Warren Commission’s work. His book is highly recommended reading if you really want to know how these things happened.
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The WC was obviously trying to do a dipsy-doodle around Humes. Humes did Not buy into the SBT. This is the advantage of a Q/A. It's a 1 Way Street.
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Hey Steve. Jackie crawling across the Limo trunk lid is indicative of her mental state at that point in time. And upon arrival at Parkland, she was incapable of lighting her own cigarettes and they even brought Mayor Cabell's wife inside to sit beside her. Based on All of this, Jackie's memory concerning her attempted reassembly of the head of JFK is subject to question. Based on the Z Film, that Gaping Wound in the (R) Temple area would have been obvious to a blind man. And remember that both Newman and Sitzman said they saw JFK "HIT" in the (R) Temple Area. "Hit" = Entrance Not Exit. I can understand an Entrance Wound in the hair possibly being missed. Multiple Dr's missing that MESS we see on the Z Film? No way.
I agree that Mrs. Kennedy's state of mind upon seeing the top of her husband's head gone, and seeing his brain exposed certainly sent her into shock, but I don't think she was incapable of lighting her cigarette. Her cigarette lighter, as I recall, was lost, someone found it later, and gave it to her. Regarding her trying to keep the top of her husband's head down, and trying to keep his "brains" inside his skull, I believe she fully recalled this because she repeated this twice to Theodore White during her interview. She described a piece of skull detaching itself. One large fragment flew past her in front of her face, struck either Nellie Connally on the back-or struck the top of her seat. bounced off and fell to the floor (all captured in the Zapruder film). The other skull fragment she could have been referring to was the large flap hanging over the side of the head and to the front of the ear, extending across the side of the head, covering his temple. This fragment can clearly be seenin the Zapruder film and the "back of the head" autopsy photos. (see photo attachments). Mrs. Kennedy most defintely would have closed up the wound as much as she could've by closing part of the massive hole on top of his head, putting the loose skull flap hanging over the temple into place by flipping it back where it belonged. There is also a discovery I made a couple of years ago in the Nix film as the limousine is pulling out of Dealey Plaza after the last shot, and Mrs. Kennedy is partially on the trunk with Clint Hill halfway onto the back of the car. The clearest of the few frames showing the top of the head of JFK shows the top of JFK's gone, and his brain exposed is the one attached, along with the Z frame it correspons to. The frame corresponds with Zapruder film frame 386. In my opinion, Mrs. Kennedy did a good job of describing what she did on the way to Parkland.
(https://i.imgur.com/6glB9DV.png) (https://i.imgur.com/69emAm6.png)
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Steve - Thanks for posting that NIX Still Frame. The Original Nix Film, (wherever it is), might slam dunk your "discovery". With respect to your "color/arrows", that color is on the Wrong side of Jackie. JFK leaned/tilted to the Driver's side of the JFK Limo as Jackie crawled between JFK and the back rest and then onto the trunk lid. Are you saying that the body of JFK somehow completely turned from falling/leaning toward the Driver's side of the car to falling/leaning toward the Passenger Side of the car in roughly 4 seconds?
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Steve - Thanks for posting that NIX Still Frame. The Original Nix Film, (wherever it is), might slam dunk your "discovery". With respect to your "color/arrows", that color is on the Wrong side of Jackie. JFK leaned/tilted to the Driver's side of the JFK Limo as Jackie crawled between JFK and the back rest and then onto the trunk lid. Are you saying that the body of JFK somehow completely turned from falling/leaning toward the Driver's side of the car to falling/leaning toward the Passenger Side of the car in roughly 4 seconds?
You're welcome, Royell. The Z frame it corresponds with, z 376. JFK's head is lying on the upper back of her leg, and he is facing the backs of the Connally's, lying on his left side.
(https://i.imgur.com/rAwyLhP.png)
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You're welcome, Royell. The Z frame it corresponds with, z 376. JFK's head is lying on the upper back of her leg, and he is facing the backs of the Connally's, lying on his left side.
(https://i.imgur.com/rAwyLhP.png)
Are you talking about Z 376 or Z 386? You have referenced both frames.
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Are you talking about Z 376 or Z 386? You have referenced both frames.
Royell, my apologies. I meant 378, not 376 or 386 of the z film.
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I knew you were going to say that .
Thank you, Steve
You're welcome, Watson.
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Earl Warren was a shyster. Plain and simple. He wouldn't allow any members of the commission to see the autopsy pictures. This has bothered me since the day I read it eons ago.
I wouldn't call him a "shyster", at least on this question. Terribly wrong but not dishonest, which is I how I understand the meaning of the word "shyster". I think he was sincerely - if misguidedly - concerned about the Kennedy family. I don't think he should have been named head of the commission (he was too close to the Kennedys among other things); but I also don't know who else could have been appointed?
According to the Shenon book "A Cruel and Shocking Act", Specter and Belin and others repeatedly requested to see the photos and x-rays. Shenon said that Warren eventually compromised and told Rankin that if RFK would allow it that Warren would allow a limited number of staffers to view the material. Apparently RFK nixed the idea. Or maybe Rankin never delivered it. Shenon doesn't clarify what happened. If that's true then Warren's act is a bit more defensible. Or a bit less indefensible.
However, according to Shenon (I think Specter said this too), Specter did see at least one photo - the back wound - and fellow staffer Alfred Goldberg said he was shown the x-rays and photos, apparently SS copies. He didn't say who gave them to him. I would suspect that if Goldberg was shown them then perhaps other staffers too?
This is mostly secondary to the question of Warren's indefensible decision. However, if the above account is true then RFK deserves a slap too.