JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on April 01, 2025, 10:22:05 AM
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All credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination points away from Oswald.
For this reason, I don't accept that Oswald took the shots.
This automatically makes me a Conspiracy Theorist.
This required that I make up a conspiracy theory that could account for my conviction that Oswald didn't take the shots.
The evidence that it wasn't Oswald who took the shots is the primary factor in my approach.
I do not accept that there were multiple shooters around Dealey Plaza who were then going to make it look like one shooter, that wouldn't have made it past the planning stage.
I don't accept it was an intelligence agency, they could have killed JFK in private without any loose ends.
The assassination of JFK has always seemed to me like a Hail Mary attempt that almost went wrong. The first shot was non-fatal and he could have got down in the limo making the second shot impossible. An assassination attempt in public from long distance seems to me like someone who couldn't get close to the President. It seems really lo-fi.
I don't accept that the CIA/FBI/KGB/Mafia/Cubans were involved in the shooting.
There was enough evidence pointing to one person firing three shots from the Sniper's Nest to convince me.
It is a feature of the Lone Nutter theory that there is no motive so I started there - who had the best motive for wanting JFK dead?
Although there are quite a few candidates for this, there is one who is head and shoulders above the rest - LBJ.
That LBJ was a borderline psychopath who loathed the Kennedy's and lusted after the power of Presidency might seem enough but there was a more urgent motive. LBJ was off the ticket in '64 and being investigated for crimes that would have potentially put him behind bars for a very long time. He was about to lose everything and there was literally only one solution - to become President. The reason he accepted the role of Vice President was largely based on the possibility of JFK being assassinated. If JFK was NOT assassinated before LBJ was off the ticket he was done for.
So, what possible connection could there be between LBJ and Lee Harvey Oswald?
The obvious connection is David Harold Byrd, founder of the Civil Air Patrol of which Oswald had been a cadet, friend of Georges De Morenschildt who befriended Oswald and helped him to find work, and Byrd was owner of the TSBD building where Oswald worked and from where the shots were taken.
Byrd was also an incredibly close friend of LBJ.
What would Byrd's motive be to get involved in the assassination of JFK? - his ultra far-right tendencies and tens of millions of dollars.
The first defense contract awarded during LBJ's presidency went to Byrd's company, LTV. Johnson also kept in place the oil depletion allowance.
So, here is the imagined scenario - in an oak-paneled room over brandy and cigars, LBJ and Byrd agree that JFK has to go. Byrd agrees to make it happen in return for untold wealth. All LBJ has to do is get JFK to visit Dallas before the next election. As in 1960, the motorcade route will take JFK directly past the TSBD building. All that needs to happen is to have a man take a relatively easy shot from the building as JFK passes by.
It could not be simpler.
The number one concern for both LBJ and Byrd is that there is no chance this can be traced back to them because if it goes wrong they could lose everything (LBJ has nothing to lose as he is going to lose everything anyway).
The only way to guarantee this is compartmentalization. LBJ and Byrd must be separated from the shooter in such a way that their involvement is unknown.
The simplest solution I could come up with that fulfills this criteria is as follows:
LBJ and Byrd decide that JFk has to go.
Byrd gets Jack Cason on board. Cason, President of the TSBD, is another ultra far right winger. He came on the FBI's radar at one point when his wife was reported to have said at a party that JFK should be shot, so the position of the Cason household seems pretty clear. I can also work with Cason's actions during the time JFK passes by as they can be interpreted in a suspicious way (remember, I'm making all this up).
What does Cason get out of all this?
I'm not sure at the moment. He is more than just a foot soldier so it would have to be more than an ideological principle.
Cason also acts as a buffer between LBJ, Byrd and Bill Shelley.
Shelley is a foot soldier and acts out of an ideological principle (God, Country, Democracy etc.). His job is to organize the shooter and the patsy. He has no idea of the involvement of LBJ and Byrd, they have now been successfully separated from the assassination planning and execution and are fully covered by 'plausible deniability'.
Obviously the patsy is Oswald.
As for the shooter, there are two possible candidates.
Mac Wallace - LBJ's henchman, worked for Byrd's LTV. Oswald's job is to meet and greet at the back door, make sure the coast is clear and that everything is ready. The only issue with this is how Wallace gets out after the shooting as the quick arrival of Baker on the scene causes a lot of problems.
Jack Dougherty - the only other TSBD employee who was in the building, has no alibi and whose testimony/statements about his movements are ridiculously suspicious as is his treatment as a witness. He is also a perfect second patsy if the first one doesn't work out.
LBJ and Byrd
Cason
Shelley
Shooter and Patsy
That is the sum total of the simplest conspiracy theory I can imagine.
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All credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination points away from Oswald.
For this reason, I don't accept that Oswald took the shots.
This automatically makes me a Conspiracy Theorist.
This required that I make up a conspiracy theory that could account for my conviction that Oswald didn't take the shots.
The evidence that it wasn't Oswald who took the shots is the primary factor in my approach.
I do not accept that there were multiple shooters around Dealey Plaza who were then going to make it look like one shooter, that wouldn't have made it past the planning stage.
I don't accept it was an intelligence agency, they could have killed JFK in private without any loose ends.
The assassination of JFK has always seemed to me like a Hail Mary attempt that almost went wrong. The first shot was non-fatal and he could have got down in the limo making the second shot impossible. An assassination attempt in public from long distance seems to me like someone who couldn't get close to the President. It seems really lo-fi.
I don't accept that the CIA/FBI/KGB/Mafia/Cubans were involved in the shooting.
There was enough evidence pointing to one person firing three shots from the Sniper's Nest to convince me.
It is a feature of the Lone Nutter theory that there is no motive so I started there - who had the best motive for wanting JFK dead?
Although there are quite a few candidates for this, there is one who is head and shoulders above the rest - LBJ.
That LBJ was a borderline psychopath who loathed the Kennedy's and lusted after the power of Presidency might seem enough but there was a more urgent motive. LBJ was off the ticket in '64 and being investigated for crimes that would have potentially put him behind bars for a very long time. He was about to lose everything and there was literally only one solution - to become President. The reason he accepted the role of Vice President was largely based on the possibility of JFK being assassinated. If JFK was NOT assassinated before LBJ was off the ticket he was done for.
So, what possible connection could there be between LBJ and Lee Harvey Oswald?
The obvious connection is David Harold Byrd, founder of the Civil Air Patrol of which Oswald had been a cadet, friend of Georges De Morenschildt who befriended Oswald and helped him to find work, and Byrd was owner of the TSBD building where Oswald worked and from where the shots were taken.
Byrd was also an incredibly close friend of LBJ.
What would Byrd's motive be to get involved in the assassination of JFK? - his ultra far-right tendencies and tens of millions of dollars.
The first defense contract awarded during LBJ's presidency went to Byrd's company, LTV. Johnson also kept in place the oil depletion allowance.
So, here is the imagined scenario - in an oak-paneled room over brandy and cigars, LBJ and Byrd agree that JFK has to go. Byrd agrees to make it happen in return for untold wealth. All LBJ has to do is get JFK to visit Dallas before the next election. As in 1960, the motorcade route will take JFK directly past the TSBD building. All that needs to happen is to have a man take a relatively easy shot from the building as JFK passes by.
It could not be simpler.
The number one concern for both LBJ and Byrd is that there is no chance this can be traced back to them because if it goes wrong they could lose everything (LBJ has nothing to lose as he is going to lose everything anyway).
The only way to guarantee this is compartmentalization. LBJ and Byrd must be separated from the shooter in such a way that their involvement is unknown.
The simplest solution I could come up with that fulfills this criteria is as follows:
LBJ and Byrd decide that JFk has to go.
Byrd gets Jack Cason on board. Cason, President of the TSBD, is another ultra far right winger. He came on the FBI's radar at one point when his wife was reported to have said at a party that JFK should be shot, so the position of the Cason household seems pretty clear. I can also work with Cason's actions during the time JFK passes by as they can be interpreted in a suspicious way (remember, I'm making all this up).
What does Cason get out of all this?
I'm not sure at the moment. He is more than just a foot soldier so it would have to be more than an ideological principle.
Cason also acts as a buffer between LBJ, Byrd and Bill Shelley.
Shelley is a foot soldier and acts out of an ideological principle (God, Country, Democracy etc.). His job is to organize the shooter and the patsy. He has no idea of the involvement of LBJ and Byrd, they have now been successfully separated from the assassination planning and execution and are fully covered by 'plausible deniability'.
Obviously the patsy is Oswald.
As for the shooter, there are two possible candidates.
Mac Wallace - LBJ's henchman, worked for Byrd's LTV. Oswald's job is to meet and greet at the back door, make sure the coast is clear and that everything is ready. The only issue with this is how Wallace gets out after the shooting as the quick arrival of Baker on the scene causes a lot of problems.
Jack Dougherty - the only other TSBD employee who was in the building, has no alibi and whose testimony/statements about his movements are ridiculously suspicious as is his treatment as a witness. He is also a perfect second patsy if the first one doesn't work out.
LBJ and Byrd
Cason
Shelley
Shooter and Patsy
That is the sum total of the simplest conspiracy theory I can imagine.
Obviously the patsy is Oswald.
But let's examine the pesky facts that always get in the way. Oswald getting into the TSBD was purely by chance, Oswald was applying for jobs in the weeks preceding his Depository employment any of which Oswald would have accepted if successful, for instance he applied for a job with Padgett printing but didn't get the job because a former employer said he was a trouble maker and had "communist tendencies" all of which had zero to do with his eventual employment at the TSBD. And even his TSBD job was only because Frazier was working there and Frazier's sister had lunch with a mutual friend of Ruth Paine, so Oswald's wife had a friend of a friend of a friend's brother who just got a job at the Depository! Whew!
(https://i.ibb.co/W4XP4XFs/Oswaldapplication-zpsf943fcc7.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/7xbVQK2C/Padgett-Printing-Company-Dallas.jpg)
JohnM
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At the risk of repeating myself, I hereby repeat myself. Your "simple" theory is no more simple than "invisible aliens did it." Oh, yes, characters at the level of Cason, Shelley and Wallace participate in an assassination of the POTUS, thereby risking rather unpleasant execution, because they are all foaming-at-the-mouth ideological wackos. There is absolutely no evidence that they received any material benefit commensurate with the risks they supposedly took. Your latest effort doesn't scratch the surface of my pithy inquiry. You can keep referring to moi as "desperate," "upset," et al. - BWAHAHA - but the fact is, your "theory" is absurd.
The only item to which you chose to respond was my statement that poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work, which you ridiculed without a substantive response. Just try answering my Oswald-oriented questions in a way that doesn't make you sound silly. Myself, I'm currently leaning toward invisible aliens.
Tom wasn't asking you to do so, but you never flesh out your conspiracy theory sufficiently to expose how complex, unlikely and silly it is. Sure, LBJ and Byrd hatched the plot, Byrd recruited Cason without telling him of LBJ's involvement, Cason recruited Shelley without telling him of LBJ's or Byrd's involvement, Shelley recruited a TSBD employee without telling him of LBJ's, Byrd's or Cason's involvement, and poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work. Simple, uncomplicated, no problem.
We'll start at the bottom: "An employee" of the TSBD does the shooting. This employee, according to what you have suggested, is recruited by Bill Shelley. Is any known employee of the TSBD a plausible recruit? Who? On what basis? How is this employee convinced by Bill Shelley to shoot the President of the United States? What is offered to this employee for these remarkable services? Is there any evidence that this employee subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? Did this employee die a mysterious death almost immediately after the assassination or was he allowed to walk around as a ticking time bomb for years?
Who had control of Oswald while the gunman employee was doing the shooting? It obviously wasn't Shelley. Was there no control of Oswald at all - what sense would that make? How did Oswald manage to walk out of the building? Why did he walk out of the building, go home and get his pistol and all the rest? Why didn't he cooperate with the authorities once he was in custody?
How did Oswald's rifle get into the building? Did Shelley sneak into Ruth Paine's garage? Was it just pure happenstance that Oswald picked the night before the assassination to go to Ruth's for curtain rods, left the light on in the garage, and left Marina with a large amount of cash and his wedding ring?
Shelley, we are told, was recruited by TSBD President Jack Cason. How and why? What would have made Shelley amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the President of the United States? He spent his entire working life, 40 years, at the TSBD - is there any evidence he subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? He lived until 1996 - no one had any concern he might crack?
If Shelley recruited the assassin and presumably made at least minimal arrangements for the control of Oswald, how do we explain his actions during the motorcade and after the shots were fired? He just stood on the TSBD steps, walked down toward the railroad tracks with Lovelady, etc. - really? He offered nothing incriminating about his chosen patsy, no ironclad alibi for the gunman he had recruited - really? He wasn't even bright enough to clean up those incriminating chicken bones in the sniper's nest (BWAHAHA).
Cason was home eating lunch when the assassination happened. What would have made Byrd think Cason would be amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the POTUS? What did the wealthy Byrd promise Cason? Is there any evidence Cason came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted from the unbelievable risks he took? Why would Cason have thought of recruiting Shelley and why would he have trusted him? He lived until 1985 - no one had any concern he might crack?
Cason was recruited by the very wealthy David Harold Byrd. Why would Byrd have entrusted Cason with a plot that would get them both executed if discovered? Why would Byrd have trusted Cason to recruit Shelley and Shelley to recruit some TSBD employee?
Byrd, you say, either hatched the plot and sold it to LBJ or vice versa. How would this have worked? LBJ was going to trust his life to Byrd, Cason, Shelley and some TSBD employee - really? You can talk about "compartmentalization" all you want, but if this went wrong at the Shelley or gunman level everyone was going to fry. What story could the gunman have told that wouldn't implicate Shelley - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Shelley? What story could Shelley have told that wouldn't implicate Cason - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Cason? Likewise Cason with Byrd, and Byrd with LBJ?
Oh, yes, I know - Shelley was "ex-CIA," Cason was active with the American Legion, blah blah blah. It's all "Six Degrees of Separation from Kevin Bacon" sort of nonsense and doesn't begin to explain the five participants' mutual participation in a plot to kill the President of the United States.
And BTW, what was the necessity of all the post-assassination shenanigans you posit? Why did the WC need to be a sham? You appear to me to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth, or perhaps you aren't convinced by your own "simple and uncomplicated" theory?
Your theory, in my humble opinion, is completely irrational. I'm done with you, but Tom might be fascinated by your explanation as to how your theory makes any sense at all.
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But let's examine the pesky facts that always get in the way. Oswald getting into the TSBD was purely by chance, Oswald was applying for jobs in the weeks preceding his Depository employment any of which Oswald would have accepted if successful, for instance he applied for a job with Padgett printing but didn't get the job because a former employer said he was a trouble maker and had "communist tendencies" all of which had zero to do with his eventual employment at the TSBD. And even his TSBD job was only because Frazier was working there and Frazier's sister had lunch with a mutual friend of Ruth Paine, so Oswald's wife had a friend of a friend of a friend's brother who just got a job at the Depository! Whew!
JohnM
Good point. If Oswald got the job by chance, only about a month before the assassination, would this small group of conspirators have enough time to put things together to frame him? Is it possible that they couldn't believe their luck and quickly set things in motion?
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At the risk of repeating myself, I hereby repeat myself. Your "simple" theory is no more simple than "invisible aliens did it." Oh, yes, characters at the level of Cason, Shelley and Wallace participate in an assassination of the POTUS, thereby risking rather unpleasant execution, because they are all foaming-at-the-mouth ideological wackos. There is absolutely no evidence that they received any material benefit commensurate with the risks they supposedly took. Your latest effort doesn't scratch the surface of my pithy inquiry. You can keep referring to moi as "desperate," "upest," et al. - BWAHAHA - but the fact is, your "theory" is absurd.
The only item to which you chose to respond was my statement that poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work, which you ridiculed without a substantive response. Just try answering my Oswald-oriented questions in a way that doesn't make you sound silly. Myself, I'm currently leaning toward invisible aliens.
At the risk of repeating myself, I hereby repeat myself. Your "simple" theory is no more simple than "invisible aliens did it."
It is Lance.
It's way more simple and realistic than that and to make this suggestion is almost unhinged.
Could you please tone down the rhetoric and try to engage like an adult rather than nonsense like this.
Just relax.
You're not under threat or anything like that.
Oh, yes, characters at the level of Cason, Shelley and Wallace participate in an assassination of the POTUS, thereby risking rather unpleasant execution,
But in your own theory Oswald risked the same "unpleasant execution" (with the drama, already ::)) but you fully accept he took the shots (even though the eyewitness evidence appears to refute that).
Because you're so invested, you're not thinking things through.
And the fact of the matter is you clearly won't contemplate any kind of conspiracy because you would argue that any conspirator would face an "unpleasant execution" therefore no one would be part of a conspiracy - circular argument, anyone?
There is absolutely no evidence that they received any material benefit commensurate with the risks they supposedly took.
This is another weird point you keep trotting out as if it means something.
You don't seem to accept that anyone would do something for an ideology alone. That the only reason anyone does anything is for money. This is so naive it's actually cute.
But keep on blurting it out as I'm sure you will.
No one ever did anything for God, Country, Democracy, Freedom, Civil Rights or anything like that unless there palms were being crossed with silver ::)
You can keep referring to moi as "desperate," "upest," et al. - BWAHAHA - but the fact is, your "theory" is absurd.
If the shoe fits...
I think others can judge from your opening sentence how calm and rational you are.
The only item to which you chose to respond was my statement that poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work, which you ridiculed without a substantive response. Just try answering my Oswald-oriented questions in a way that doesn't make you sound silly.
Present your questions again in a calm, rational, adult manner and I will answer them as openly and fully as I can.
Myself, I'm currently leaning toward invisible aliens.
;D
That explains a lot.
Are they in the room with you while you're typing?
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But let's examine the pesky facts that always get in the way. Oswald getting into the TSBD was purely by chance, Oswald was applying for jobs in the weeks preceding his Depository employment any of which Oswald would have accepted if successful, for instance he applied for a job with Padgett printing but didn't get the job because a former employer said he was a trouble maker and had "communist tendencies" all of which had zero to do with his eventual employment at the TSBD. And even his TSBD job was only because Frazier was working there and Frazier's sister had lunch with a mutual friend of Ruth Paine, so Oswald's wife had a friend of a friend of a friend's brother who just got a job at the Depository! Whew!
(https://i.ibb.co/W4XP4XFs/Oswaldapplication-zpsf943fcc7.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/7xbVQK2C/Padgett-Printing-Company-Dallas.jpg)
JohnM
Then let's say that Oswald working at the TSBD building was a stroke of good fortune for the conspirators.
Maybe it was viewed as too good an opportunity to miss.
Have I broken some kind of rule by accepting the excellent research of an LNer.
Is it some kind of taboo?
Surely people down at TSBD knew Oswald was the Commie Marine who defected then came back with a Russian wife.
Certainly Byrd's friend De Morenschildt knew this, so we can assume Byrd knew it.
If Oswald was anything he was the perfect Patsy - in Texas in the '60's a Marine Commie was guilty even if he didn't do it.
No one was looking any further than Oswald from the get go.
I feel a bit sad though, as I really wanted to incorporate this pic into my theory:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJyJ1Cn9/Shelley-New-Orleans1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Bill Shelley with the 'Hands Off Cuba' crew down in New Orleans with Oswald in the foreground.
Hey, but maybe it's just someone who looks more like Bill Shelley than Oswald looks like Oswald ;)
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Theories like Dan’s “simple” theory are – or should be – highly instructive for all CTers. The serve as a wonderful lesson in how difficult – impossible? – it is to construct a theory with any real-world plausibility.
This was the very point of my “If I had planned the conspiracy" thread. When you are challenged, or challenge yourself, to put meat on the bones of your conspiracy theory, it inevitably starts to look more like a Rube Goldberg contraption than a Presidential assassination.
(https://i0.wp.com/momentmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/rube-goldberg-2.jpg?w=1000&ssl=1)
Bill Shelley, CIA guy? In WW2, he was an ROTC cadet in high school. He began working for the predecessor of the TSBD in 1945, within a few months of high school graduation. He worked in the TSBD all his working life – 40+ years. He lived until 1996. He died in Irving in modest circumstances. There is zero evidence over the course of his life that he had any radical ideological views or received any material benefit from RISKING HIS LIFE as a principal in the ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. But in Conspiracy World – in Dan’s world – these are the sort of characters of which assassination conspirators are made.
But wait, Lance, surely you know Shelley admitted his connection to the CIA? Uh, well …
The source of this Conspiracy Factoid is, of course, the so-called Glaze letters – written by one Elzie Dean Glaze to the HSCA in 1977 and then part of a magazine article in 1989. Glaze claimed to have interviewed “Shelly” extensively in 1974, even being allowed to record those conversations; the notes and tapes, alas, mysteriously disappeared. The cooperative “Shelly” revealed such bombshells as that he “had been an intelligence officer during World War II [when he was a high school ROTC cadet] and thereafter joined the CIA [it wasn’t even formed until late 1948, at which time Shelley was working for the predecessor of the TSBD]." After the assassination, “the Dallas police placed Shelly under arrest and formally charged him with the murder of the President [ya think?]."
You can read the full saga here in the first post by William Weston: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5769-glaze-letters/ The Ed Forum folks greeted it with hoots, and even Bart Kamp acknowledges it must be “taken with a large grain of salt.”
Except, of course, by those for whom it's Conspiracy Gospel. But I digress …
Who, in Dan’s theory, alerted Shelley, Cason or Byrd that they had a rifle-owning, Russian-defecting, Castro-sympathizing, ex-Marine-sharpshooter filling orders in the TSBD? Who alerted them that this perfect patsy had been handed to them on a platter? Does this not immediately take Dan's conspiracy far beyond his “simple” little absurdity? Or was Oswald placed in the TSBD before JFK’s motorcade route was ever a gleam in anyone’s eye? What sense would that make – and again, would it not extend the conspiracy far beyond Dan’s “simple” little absurdity?
If Dan’s little absurdity were true, what possible need would there have been to plant or alter any evidence or engage in any sort of cover-up? Mac Wallace simply did what Oswald is alleged to have done, from the location at which Oswald is alleged to have done it, using either the weapon Oswald is alleged to have used or perhaps a more accurate version of it. (One wonders why LBJ and Byrd would have used a gunman with close connections to LBJ who had previously been convicted of first-degree murder – an odd choice, no? And if this was all as compartmentalized as Dan suggests, who did Wallace think he was assassinating JFK for - Shelley? Cason? Byrd?)
I’m just having a bit of fun playing cross-examining attorney with Dan, doing what cross-examining attorneys do – i.e., expose the holes in a witness’s story. But this exercise really should be instructive for all CTers.
Think about the lowest levels of the people who populate your theory – is it plausible, given the entirety of their lives and circumstances, that they would have risked execution by participating in a Presidential assassination? Do their lives show any evidence of inexplicable material benefit subsequent to the assassination? Is there really any plausible reason to plug them into a conspiracy theory? Or are you, like Dan, just making stuff up?
Then focus on what would actually have had to take place – every last real-world detail – for your theory to have worked. “I don’t know, they somehow targeted Oswald as the patsy.” “I don’t know, they somehow allowed him to walk out of the building.” No, this won’t do. You need to think through every last detail and have at least plausible conjecture for everything from how Oswald got his job at the TSBD to how he became the patsy to how he walked out the door and did everything he subsequently did. That alone is going to take you far beyond Dan's cast of characters.
This is no easy task. The worst of Conspiracy Thinking, such as Dan’s, should be instructive for you as a lesson in how not to go about it. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, mighta is not how a viable conspiracy is constructed.
That's all I have for this witness, your honor. Bailiff, please hand him a tissue to wipe his eyes.
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Surely people down at TSBD knew Oswald was the Commie Marine who defected then came back with a Russian wife.
Certainly Byrd's friend De Morenschildt knew this, so we can assume Byrd knew it.
If Oswald was anything he was the perfect Patsy - in Texas in the '60's a Marine Commie was guilty even if he didn't do it.
No one was looking any further than Oswald from the get go.
If Dan didn't exist, I'd have to invent him.
What you see above is known as Conspiratorial Tap-Dancing. As a CTer's theory is exposed as nonsense, he tap-dances across the stage, offering ad hoc additions to his theory in an effort to save it, all the while hoping you'll be distracted by his feet. Alas, as Conspiratorial Tap Dancers go, Dan is no Fred Astaire.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExczMzdXdkdHV4MjRsMDZ6bHBxeHhjZmVhYWt3cXR1NGs3eWttenpoYiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/xpipBcvgSTptK/giphy.gif)
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All LBJ has to do is get JFK to visit Dallas before the next election. As in 1960, the motorcade route will take JFK directly past the TSBD building. All that needs to happen is to have a man take a relatively easy shot from the building as JFK passes by.
It could not be simpler.
...
The first defense contract awarded during LBJ's presidency went to Byrd's company, LTV. Johnson also kept in place the oil depletion allowance.
These are about the best part of your simplest conspiracy theory. The rest I don't believe add much. However, I do agree there was LBJ and a group within the CIA organization which had much to gain and in common their fear of a loss of power. I draw a parallel between JFK and Trump. They both wanted to end "endless wars" and stop funding USAid organizations which are used to pay off patronage and allow the CIA to meddle in the affairs of other countries and create military industrial complex (MIC) situations which get funded by the taxpayer. Some people are elected, others are not. JFK and Trump are both nationalists - not globalists! Very important when contrasting these 2 politicians with the likes of the Bush's, Clinton, Obama etc. who are looking for complete global integration and leadership.
After 2 attempts on Trump's life, it is clear that "nutcasing" is being encouraged - especially when you see how lax the secret service was and how all connections have been burned. Leaving the obvious building open to a sniper is way too much coincidence. Much like J6th, the documents involved in those allegations have for some mysterious reason disappeared and were shredded. Unlike most, the CIA has most politician under control. Trump is not in compliance - neither was JFK. It appears that Epstein did not have any junk on Trump which could be used by the CIA to enforce capitulation and strangulation of Trump. It is pretty obvious most politicians fear their handlers - Trump does not. He also is very narcissist in simple terms and hard to trap. They don't have him visiting Epstein Island and using the Lolita Express with implicating videos and photographs of him getting drunk and playing around with under-aged girls. He doesn't even drink. He is not under their control period!
Who was JFK and what was his huge downfall? A number of reasons:
1) He fired Allen Dulles and wanted a different way forward.
2) He botched CIA plans for Cuba. They wanted to take out Castro and were considering even using an errant Cuban missile or rocket to take out an American airplane with Americans on board.
3) JFK openly declared in his speech that the military industrial complex and CIA involvement in meddling with the affairs of other countries was on the chopping block! No longer the status quo!
4) JFK also wanted to prevent the Middle East from getting nuclear weaponry. Much like inspectors in Iraq for WMD's, he wanted to send inspectors into Palestine to watchdog them.
5) He was governing for the people and wanted programs which would end nuclear arms races and have Americans live peaceably among the world. Nationalist vs Globalist agenda.
6) He was a Catholic and not part of Skull and Bones or any other Masonic organization, or Mormon organization. He openly called for the end of secret societies (look at his speech).
The point is, he was hated by all un-elected government organizations as is Trump. There are groups in power like the CIA, FBI and CFR who influence much of the world's affairs. Trump now is taking away their spending money and they do not like that at all.
Why LBJ was involved?
1) He hated JFK with a passion as JFK belittled him and he was on his way out. LBJ was very corrupt and this was the best way for him to take the office of POTUS. He was greedy for power.
2) He also was very pro-Israel and appeared to be sleeping with Mathilda Krim. She certainly didn't want weapons inspectors to see how Israel got the bomb via mafia and textile industry during that time frame.
3) LBJ found common ground with the CIA as they both wanted JFK out of the way. Viet Nam was an ongoing war which was funding the MIC in a big way. Everyone remains happy. Even new weapon testing.
4) LBJ had no qualms in handing out military contracts to the likes of Raytheon (modern name) who could make new weaponry and sell and dispose of obsolete weaponry to proxy type wars. Tax payers can pay for it. All good. More jobs!
5) The people he appointed for the Warren Commission had deep ties via Secret Societies. Even Zapruder was a 33rd degree and near top of his game. Fired Allen Dulles was part of the WC. Great way to achieve commonality by employing them.
6) It was common knowledge that both the CIA, IDF and LBJ had common ties to the mafia. One such figure used was Jack Ruby.
Loose ends were all tied up nice and neat after it was all said and done!
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Loose ends were all tied up nice and neat after it was all said and done!
Oops, the ENTIRE PREMISE of Conspiracy World is that the loose ends were NOT tied up nice and neat. The entire premise of Conspiracy World is that the conspirators were evil geniuses half the time and bungling Keystone Cops the other half.
It must also be noted that when you hypothesize "a group within the CIA organization" you have exponentially expanded Dan's theory in terms of complexity and number of participants.
If I had the resources, I'd love to make a high-quality Netflix series with each of ten or so JFK conspiracy theories fleshed out in, say, three one-hour episodes (well, maybe five for Harvey & Lee). Let folks see what these would actually have looked like. It would have to be a comedy series of course, along the lines of "Monty Python's Life of Brian."
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LBJ
Byrd
Cason
Shelley
Mac Wallace (or Jack Dougherty) and Patsy Oswald
That is the sum total of the simplest conspiracy theory I can imagine.
You left out someone you mentioned in your post -- a probable (according to CIA Counterintelligence analyst Clare Edward Petty) long-term KGB "illegal" by the name of George DeMohrenschildt.
Regardless, I thought you said in another thread that there were only two conspirators?
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You left out someone you mentioned in your post -- a probable (according to CIA Counterintelligence analyst Clare Edward Petty) long-term KGB "illegal" by the name of George DeMohrenschildt.
Regardless, I thought you said in another thread that there were only two conspirators?
Ah, I see now that Dan has left open the possibility of tap-dancing to Dougherty when the Wallace thing starts to look silly, as it has. OK, Rankin was suspicious of Dougherty and asked for him to be investigated precisely because he seemed confused and inconsistent to the point of suspected mental retardation. Precisely what were his radical ideological views and gun skills that would have made him a likely gunman candidate, enquiring minds would like to know? What evidence is there that he benefitted in any way? I can find precisely nothing about him after the JFKA, not even an obituary. Did he die a Mysterious Death, one wonders?
But wait, he was the PERFECT candidate to say "Absolutely, I saw Lee carry a long package wrapped in brown paper into the building that morning. Maybe three feet long or so? Yeah, I wondered about that myself. Hell of a big sandwich, ha ha ha." But he DIDN'T. Quite the contrary. The GUNMAN helped provide an alibi for the PATSY? Ya think?
I trust the point you're making, Tom, is the same as the one I'm making: This all makes no sense. You're just more polite, right?
Ah, I also see that Dan adopted your De Mohrenschildt suggestion and incorporated him into his theory, albeit apparently without the KGB angle. He merely alerted Byrd that he had a perfect patsy working for him, or something like that.
Tap, tap tap. This really is kind of fun to watch.
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Theories like Dan’s “simple” theory are – or should be – highly instructive for all CTers. The serve as a wonderful lesson in how difficult – impossible? – it is to construct a theory with any real-world plausibility.
This was the very point of my “If I had planned the conspiracy" thread. When you are challenged, or challenge yourself, to put meat on the bones of your conspiracy theory, it inevitably starts to look more like a Rube Goldberg contraption than a Presidential assassination.
(https://i0.wp.com/momentmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/rube-goldberg-2.jpg?w=1000&ssl=1)
Bill Shelley, CIA guy? In WW2, he was an ROTC cadet in high school. He began working for the predecessor of the TSBD in 1945, within a few months of high school graduation. He worked in the TSBD all his working life – 40+ years. He lived until 1996. He died in Irving in modest circumstances. There is zero evidence over the course of his life that he had any radical ideological views or received any material benefit from RISKING HIS LIFE as a principal in the ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. But in Conspiracy World – in Dan’s world – these are the sort of characters of which assassination conspirators are made.
But wait, Lance, surely you know Shelley admitted his connection to the CIA? Uh, well …
The source of this Conspiracy Factoid is, of course, the so-called Glaze letters – written by one Elzie Dean Glaze to the HSCA in 1977 and then part of a magazine article in 1989. Glaze claimed to have interviewed “Shelly” extensively in 1974, even being allowed to record those conversations; the notes and tapes, alas, mysteriously disappeared. The cooperative “Shelly” revealed such bombshells as that he “had been an intelligence officer during World War II [when he was a high school ROTC cadet] and thereafter joined the CIA [it wasn’t even formed until late 1948, at which time Shelley was working for the predecessor of the TSBD]." After the assassination, “the Dallas police placed Shelly under arrest and formally charged him with the murder of the President [ya think?]."
You can read the full saga here in the first post by William Weston: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5769-glaze-letters/ The Ed Forum folks greeted it with hoots, and even Bart Kamp acknowledges it must be “taken with a large grain of salt.”
Except, of course, by those for whom it's Conspiracy Gospel. But I digress …
Who, in Dan’s theory, alerted Shelley, Cason or Byrd that they had a rifle-owning, Russian-defecting, Castro-sympathizing, ex-Marine-sharpshooter filling orders in the TSBD? Who alerted them that this perfect patsy had been handed to them on a platter? Does this not immediately take Dan's conspiracy far beyond his “simple” little absurdity? Or was Oswald placed in the TSBD before JFK’s motorcade route was ever a gleam in anyone’s eye? What sense would that make – and again, would it not extend the conspiracy far beyond Dan’s “simple” little absurdity?
If Dan’s little absurdity were true, what possible need would there have been to plant or alter any evidence or engage in any sort of cover-up? Mac Wallace simply did what Oswald is alleged to have done, from the location at which Oswald is alleged to have done it, using either the weapon Oswald is alleged to have used or perhaps a more accurate version of it. (One wonders why LBJ and Byrd would have used a gunman with close connections to LBJ who had previously been convicted of first-degree murder – an odd choice, no? And if this was all as compartmentalized as Dan suggests, who did Wallace think he was assassinating JFK for - Shelley? Cason? Byrd?)
I’m just having a bit of fun playing cross-examining attorney with Dan, doing what cross-examining attorneys do – i.e., expose the holes in a witness’s story. But this exercise really should be instructive for all CTers.
Think about the lowest levels of the people who populate your theory – is it plausible, given the entirety of their lives and circumstances, that they would have risked execution by participating in a Presidential assassination? Do their lives show any evidence of inexplicable material benefit subsequent to the assassination? Is there really any plausible reason to plug them into a conspiracy theory? Or are you, like Dan, just making stuff up?
Then focus on what would actually have had to take place – every last real-world detail – for your theory to have worked. “I don’t know, they somehow targeted Oswald as the patsy.” “I don’t know, they somehow allowed him to walk out of the building.” No, this won’t do. You need to think through every last detail and have at least plausible conjecture for everything from how Oswald got his job at the TSBD to how he became the patsy to how he walked out the door and did everything he subsequently did. That alone is going to take you far beyond Dan's cast of characters.
This is no easy task. The worst of Conspiracy Thinking, such as Dan’s, should be instructive for you as a lesson in how not to go about it. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, mighta is not how a viable conspiracy is constructed.
That's all I have for this witness, your honor. Bailiff, please hand him a tissue to wipe his eyes.
Lance's childish approach to this debate is really disappointing.
I seem to have upset him somehow but he won't say what it is.
This rambling, rant of a post is impossible to engage with - it's a combination of lies, fantasy, misrepresentation and ignorance.
The only coherent argument he makes is that my "simple" theory is somehow too complex to be realistic (I think).
Like almost everything he posts, I find this really baffling.
There are very few moving parts to the theory I am proposing, it is as pared down as I can make it.
It involves a handful of people.
No CIA/FBI/KGB/Mafia/Cubans etc.
No multiple shooters.
Just one man firing a rifle from the Sniper's Nest.
Like all Nutters, Lance is convinced that the theory he believes in is a FACT, He believes that Oswald assassinating JFK is a FACT, when it is a theory.
He has so convinced himself it is a fact that he can't engage in any meaningful way with someone proposing an alternative theory.
Lance, if you can manage a calm, rational, adult debate I would be more than willing to engage.
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O'meara,
Don't you think it's pretty amazing that the amount of lead core lost by CE-399 when it was fired through a bale of cotton or a pig carcass (or some-such-thing) so closely matched the amount of lead that was revolvered from JBC's body plus the amount that was estimated from the X-rays to have remained in it?
BTW, which evil, evil conspirator that's evidently not on your list of five gave CE-399 to FBI agent Elmer Todd?
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Lance's childish approach to this debate is really disappointing.
I seem to have upset him somehow but he won't say what it is.
This rambling, rant of a post is impossible to engage with - it's a combination of lies, fantasy, misrepresentation and ignorance.
The only coherent argument he makes is that my "simple" theory is somehow too complex to be realistic (I think).
Like almost everything he posts, I find this really baffling.
There are very few moving parts to the theory I am proposing, it is as pared down as I can make it.
It involves a handful of people.
No CIA/FBI/KGB/Mafia/Cubans etc.
No multiple shooters.
Just one man firing a rifle from the Sniper's Nest.
Like all Nutters, Lance is convinced that the theory he believes in is a FACT, He believes that Oswald assassinating JFK is a FACT, when it is a theory.
He has so convinced himself it is a fact that he can't engage in any meaningful way with someone proposing an alternative theory.
Lance, if you can manage a calm, rational, adult debate I would be more than willing to engage.
You will be pleased to learn that this shall be my last response, ever, to anything you post. You are being consigned, along with the Harvey & Lee folks, to the Not Worth My Time bin. Even we Factoid Busters have our limits.
Your version of the Conspiratorial Tap Dance, much like theirs, is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.
A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.
LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.
Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.
Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which do not mesh with your theory at all.
Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.
Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.
Oswald? My little effort on “If I Had Planned the Conspiracy” was intended to be self-evidently comical. Yours suffers from precisely the same defects, but you fail to see the humor. Not extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, explain how Oswald ever got on the patsy radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the supposed patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; explain how these are the actions of an innocent patsy.
In the unlikely event you actually attempt to explain these things, be sure to highlight those portions of your explanation, if any, that are not 100% raw, ad hoc speculation.
Done. Enjoy your time in the bin. Those H&L folks are a lot of fun, and they can tap dance with the best of ‘em.
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You will be pleased to learn that this shall be my last response, ever, to anything you post. You are being consigned, along with the Harvey & Lee folks, to the Not Worth My Time bin. Even we Factoid Busters have our limits.
Your version of the Conspiratorial Tap Dance, much like theirs, is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.
A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.
LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.
Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.
Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which do not mesh with your theory at all.
Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.
Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.
Oswald? My little effort on “If I Had Planned the Conspiracy” was intended to be self-evidently comical. Yours suffers from precisely the same defects, but you fail to see the humor. Not extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, explain how Oswald ever got on the patsy radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the supposed patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; explain how these are the actions of an innocent patsy.
In the unlikely event you actually attempt to explain these things, be sure to highlight those portions of your explanation, if any, that are not 100% raw, ad hoc speculation.
Done. Enjoy your time in the bin. Those H&L folks are a lot of fun, and they can tap dance with the best of ‘em.
You will be pleased to learn that this shall be my last response, ever, to anything you post.
I'm not even bothering to read past this line.
As I said the last time you ran away - your presence will be sorely unmissed.
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All credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination points away from Oswald.
For this reason, I don't accept that Oswald took the shots.
This automatically makes me a Conspiracy Theorist.
This required that I make up a conspiracy theory that could account for my conviction that Oswald didn't take the shots.
The evidence that it wasn't Oswald who took the shots is the primary factor in my approach.
I do not accept that there were multiple shooters around Dealey Plaza who were then going to make it look like one shooter, that wouldn't have made it past the planning stage.
I don't accept it was an intelligence agency, they could have killed JFK in private without any loose ends.
The assassination of JFK has always seemed to me like a Hail Mary attempt that almost went wrong. The first shot was non-fatal and he could have got down in the limo making the second shot impossible. An assassination attempt in public from long distance seems to me like someone who couldn't get close to the President. It seems really lo-fi.
I don't accept that the CIA/FBI/KGB/Mafia/Cubans were involved in the shooting.
There was enough evidence pointing to one person firing three shots from the Sniper's Nest to convince me.
It is a feature of the Lone Nutter theory that there is no motive so I started there - who had the best motive for wanting JFK dead?
Although there are quite a few candidates for this, there is one who is head and shoulders above the rest - LBJ.
That LBJ was a borderline psychopath who loathed the Kennedy's and lusted after the power of Presidency might seem enough but there was a more urgent motive. LBJ was off the ticket in '64 and being investigated for crimes that would have potentially put him behind bars for a very long time. He was about to lose everything and there was literally only one solution - to become President. The reason he accepted the role of Vice President was largely based on the possibility of JFK being assassinated. If JFK was NOT assassinated before LBJ was off the ticket he was done for.
So, what possible connection could there be between LBJ and Lee Harvey Oswald?
The obvious connection is David Harold Byrd, founder of the Civil Air Patrol of which Oswald had been a cadet, friend of Georges De Morenschildt who befriended Oswald and helped him to find work, and Byrd was owner of the TSBD building where Oswald worked and from where the shots were taken.
Byrd was also an incredibly close friend of LBJ.
What would Byrd's motive be to get involved in the assassination of JFK? - his ultra far-right tendencies and tens of millions of dollars.
The first defense contract awarded during LBJ's presidency went to Byrd's company, LTV. Johnson also kept in place the oil depletion allowance.
So, here is the imagined scenario - in an oak-paneled room over brandy and cigars, LBJ and Byrd agree that JFK has to go. Byrd agrees to make it happen in return for untold wealth. All LBJ has to do is get JFK to visit Dallas before the next election. As in 1960, the motorcade route will take JFK directly past the TSBD building. All that needs to happen is to have a man take a relatively easy shot from the building as JFK passes by.
It could not be simpler.
The number one concern for both LBJ and Byrd is that there is no chance this can be traced back to them because if it goes wrong they could lose everything (LBJ has nothing to lose as he is going to lose everything anyway).
The only way to guarantee this is compartmentalization. LBJ and Byrd must be separated from the shooter in such a way that their involvement is unknown.
The simplest solution I could come up with that fulfills this criteria is as follows:
LBJ and Byrd decide that JFk has to go.
Byrd gets Jack Cason on board. Cason, President of the TSBD, is another ultra far right winger. He came on the FBI's radar at one point when his wife was reported to have said at a party that JFK should be shot, so the position of the Cason household seems pretty clear. I can also work with Cason's actions during the time JFK passes by as they can be interpreted in a suspicious way (remember, I'm making all this up).
What does Cason get out of all this?
I'm not sure at the moment. He is more than just a foot soldier so it would have to be more than an ideological principle.
Cason also acts as a buffer between LBJ, Byrd and Bill Shelley.
Shelley is a foot soldier and acts out of an ideological principle (God, Country, Democracy etc.). His job is to organize the shooter and the patsy. He has no idea of the involvement of LBJ and Byrd, they have now been successfully separated from the assassination planning and execution and are fully covered by 'plausible deniability'.
Obviously the patsy is Oswald.
As for the shooter, there are two possible candidates.
Mac Wallace - LBJ's henchman, worked for Byrd's LTV. Oswald's job is to meet and greet at the back door, make sure the coast is clear and that everything is ready. The only issue with this is how Wallace gets out after the shooting as the quick arrival of Baker on the scene causes a lot of problems.
Jack Dougherty - the only other TSBD employee who was in the building, has no alibi and whose testimony/statements about his movements are ridiculously suspicious as is his treatment as a witness. He is also a perfect second patsy if the first one doesn't work out.
LBJ and Byrd
Cason
Shelley
Shooter and Patsy
That is the sum total of the simplest conspiracy theory I can imagine.
O'meara,
It seems as though your strategy is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.
A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.
LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.
Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.
Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all.
Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.
Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.
Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."
-- Posted originally by Lance Payette; edited slightly by me
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O'meara,
It seems as though your strategy is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.
A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.
LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.
Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.
Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all.
Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.
Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.
Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."
-- Posted originally by Lance Payette; edited slightly by me
;D Ha! Nice work, Tom.
Our hero says he didn't get past my first line, but he even managed to misread THAT. I didn't say I was leaving. I said I was consigning HIM to the bin of those CTers who are simply not worth my time.
You will also note that he had previously said that if I posted rationally (what fun would that be???) he would be "happy to engage." But not past the first line, apparently.
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;D Ha! Nice work, Tom.
Our hero says he didn't get past my first line, but he even managed to misread THAT. I didn't say I was leaving. I said I was consigning HIM to the bin of those CTers who are simply not worth my time.
You will also note that he had previously said that if I posted rationally (what fun would that be???) he would be "happy to engage." But not past the first line, apparently.
Thanks, Lance.
Dan's the kind of guy who can't be bothered with JFKA conspiracy-theory-demolishing facts.
They're just too painful for him to countenance.
The sad thing is that he's so paranoiac that, instead of believing that a self-described Marxist and former sharpshooting Marine who had lived half-a-mile from a KGB school in Minsk for two-and-one-half years killed JFK, he prefers to believe that oodles and gobs of bad guys and really, really bad gals were involved in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up. ::)
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O'meara,
It seems as though your strategy is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.
A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.
LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.
Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.
Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all.
Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.
Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.
Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."
-- Posted originally by Lance Payette; edited slightly by me
McMahon,
Are you now Lance's sock puppet (there's a creepy visual :-[)
Irritatingly, in his last ever interaction with me, which I agree was semi-rational, Lance has finally made a coherent, valid point.
Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.
I only entertained Wallace because of the rumours that one of his fingerprints was found in the Sniper's Nest but I'd already expressed reservations about his selection - "The only issue with this is how Wallace gets out after the shooting as the quick arrival of Baker on the scene causes a lot of problems."
But Lance has raised a valid point, the inclusion of Wallace into the conspiracy theory ends the aspect of compartmentalization which is absolutely key to this theory. Wallace is LBJ's man which is a direct connection between LBJ and the assassination.
This can't be allowed to happen as the very top priority for LBJ and Byrd must be that the assassination plot can't come back to them in any way. There must be 'plausible deniability'.
Wallace is out.
Let's go through the rest of the post:
Your version of the Conspiratorial Tap Dance, much like theirs, is to feign obtuseness;
This is a falsehood. I've never feigned obtuseness in any discussion with Lance.
deflect, deflect, deflect;
This is also a falsehood. I've never deflected anything.
More importantly, I would never stoop to lying.
and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.
Meaning - I keep repeating the same argument over and over again.
Only in the world of the feeble-minded is this a negative quality.
Of course I repeat the same argument.
The only time I would change my argument is if good evidence or a good counter-argument forced me to review my position. Exactly as the 'Mac Wallace' counter-argument did.
A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.
Man, you really talk some nonsense.
LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.
The reasons for having LBJ and Byrd as the instigators of the assassination is covered in detail in the OP.
"Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man."
There's nothing in Cason's life to suggest he would be amenable to an assassination plot? Obviously Lance is unaware that the Cason household was raked over the coals by the FBI for publicly pronouncing that JFK should be shot. Cason's ultra far-right pedigree is impeccable and puts him in the same category as Hitler-loving Byrd. Interestingly LBJ, Byrd and Cason were all Freemasons, always good for a conspiracy theory.
This is the only official statement Cason made to any investigating authority regarding the assassination:
"On November 22, 1963 I left the Depository Building
at approximately 12 :10 P .M . and walked to the parking lot
at the west side of the building and picked up my car . I
then drove out Stemmons Expressway an route to my residence
and while driving I heard that President John F . Kennedy had
been shot near the Depository Building . I was alone in the
car and drove directly home after making one stop at a store ."
That's it.
That's the sum total of Cason's contribution to the "investigation".
This was part of the round of CE1381's that all employees in the TSBD building had to answer.
Other than that Cason was never questioned about the assassination by the DPD, FBI, Secret Service or Warren Commission even though he was President of the TSBD.
And even this short statement is weird - the President of the United States is passing directly in front of his office, everyone is out in celebration but Cason decides to go home. He gets in his car around 12:10 pm for a ten minute drive and is still driving when he hears on the radio about JFK being shot. But reports about JFK being shot weren't on the radio for quite some time.
It's all a bit fishy.
Obviously, it's not proof that Cason was involved in the plot just as there is no proof that Oswald took the shots.
But Lance's protests, that there's no way Cason could possibly be involved, are more bark than bite.
"Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all."
The theory goes poof??
What an unbiased, rational assessment.
Lance keeps making the claim that there is nothing in Shelley's life to indicate "he was a fanatical ideologue", not that I ever claimed he was one. He gives the impression that he's really familiar with Shelley, that he knows his political beliefs or religious views but the truth is that he knows nothing about how Shelley viewed things. Lance's silly argument can be turned on it's head - there's nothing in Shelley'e life to show he WASN'T a fanatical ideologue.
But what I have done is demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley lied about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination ("The 3 Minute Lie" thread). If Shelley was just some innocent bystander why would he be lying over and over again to various law enforcement agencies?
Another interesting thing about Shelley is that Oswald reportedly named Shelley as part of his alibi. The story is that after his encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald went to the front lobby where he had a chat with Shelley. As a result of this chat Oswald left the building.
The only rational reason Oswald would name Shelley is because he fully expected Shelley to back him up.
"Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi."
Nothing?
Dougherty's testimony and statements about what he did around the time of the assassination are some of the most bizarre and contradictory aspects of the whole case.
Dougherty was in the building at the time.
He testified that he was on the 6th floor just before and after the shooting.
His story about going down to see Eddie Piper is off the charts.
What is really interesting is that not once, ever, did Dougherty explain what he saw while he was up on the 6th floor. Everyone just gave him a pass - the FBI, the WC Sham.
There is no contemporary photo of Dougherty, no detailed description.
He fits like a glove into this conspiracy theory.
"Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."
please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place.
He showed up for work at the TSBD building
Explain how the rifle got into the building.
Oswald brought it
Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination
He was under strict orders
how he was able to simply walk out of the building.
He had legs
Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."
He was a fugitive on the run heading for the border when Tippit got in his way. He was not "innocent". I have never suggested that.
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Thanks, Lance.
Dan's the kind of guy who can't be bothered with JFKA conspiracy-theory-demolishing facts.
They're just too painful for him to countenance.
The sad thing is that he's so paranoiac that, instead of believing that a self-described Marxist and former sharpshooting Marine who had lived half-a-mile from a KGB school in Minsk for two-and-one-half years killed JFK, he prefers to believe that oodles and gobs of bad guys and really, really bad gals were involved in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up. ::)
Thanks, Lance.
:-*
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Let's have a closer examination of something that really puts Bill Shelley in the spotlight as Oswald's accomplice.
Oswald may have been a lot of things but he was not stupid. Beyond the mumbling loner known to his work colleagues, Oswald was an intelligent and articulate man. His various radio and television appearances demonstrate this with clarity as does the fact he taught himself to speak Russian.
When a person gives an alibi to the police they know they have gone on the record and that this is the version of events that will be used against them in a court of law. For anyone accused of a crime, the most important element of their defense is the 'alibi'. They also know that once the alibi is given it will be checked to see how 'cast iron' it is. For crimes such as shooting police officers or Presidents, this is doubly so.
An alibi that turns out to false is a massive red flag to investigating authorities.
If a guilty person is going to give a false alibi it must be one that is incredibly difficult to verify or one that has been agreed with an accomplice.
Looking through the various notes and reports pertaining to Oswald's interrogation, his alibi has a few different elements:
According to what Oswald reportedly said -
1] He was in the lunch room on the first floor (the Domino Room) when JFK's limo drove by the building.
2] After this he went up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke
3] He bought the Coke and was drinking it when Baker burst in, gun drawn.
4] He went back down to the first floor.
5] At some point he got together with Bill Shelley.
6] As a consequence of his conversation with Shelley, Oswald decided to leave.
7] Oswald left the building.
The most significant element (imo) of Oswald's alibi is his interaction with Bill Shelley. Apparently, Oswald credits Shelley with his motive for leaving the building. The importance of this cannot be stressed enough because it is Oswald's decision to 'flee the scene' that puts him well and truly in the spotlight as a prime suspect on the day of the assassination. Even if he actually pulled the trigger, he has no reason to run immediately. He has already encountered the police, seconds after the shooting, four floors below the location of the shooting and has been given a pass. They can't immediately trace the rifle to him, they can't use fingerprint evidence against him on the day. All he has to do is hold his nerve, say he was on the second floor lunchroom all along and skip town later that day. Instead, he leaves the TSBD building and appears to be making a run for the border when he crosses paths with J D Tippit.
So let's imagine that Oswald is the shooter and is trying to come up with a false alibi. One that will stick in a court of law or at least convince the DPD.
He's being asked - why did you flee the scene of the crime? Obviously, he has to come up with something convincing but something that would be almost impossible to verify.
Instead, he basically says that Bill Shelley said it was OK for him to leave!
Why on earth would he mention Bill Shelley? Why would he say it was Bill Shelley who recommended he leave for the day?
After his arrest, Oswald saw Shelley as he was being taken into the interview room because Shelley, who was having his affidavit taken, had to vacate the same room. So Oswald knew that all they had to do was ask Shelley if such a conversation took place. It's the easiest thing in the world to check and it can be checked almost immediately.
According to his testimony, Shelley (like nearly everyone else) hardly knew Oswald at all except as someone who worked at the TSBD building. Why would Oswald, an intelligent man, think Shelley would back him up? Why would he take such a ridiculous risk? Why would it even cross his mind to offer such an easily checked alibi if he knew the detectives could immediately ask Shelley if it was true?
The answer to this question is obvious - Oswald did it because he fully expected that Shelley would back him up!
Which of these two options makes sense - that Oswald was so utterly stupid as to include Shelley in a false alibi that could be checked out immediately, leaving him looking completely guilty...
...or that Oswald fully expected to be backed up by Shelley, which is why he felt comfortable telling his interrogators about it?
Of course, when asked, Shelley denied all knowledge of this interaction with Oswald. This is from an FBI report about Shelley the day after the assassination:
"OSWALD said nothing to him about leaving work early or going home, and he did not give OSWALD permission to leave work.
He is still being asked about it in his WC testimony:
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald was cool and collected during the questioning, as if he'd experienced this kind of thing before, so the idea that a panicked and desperate Oswald blurted out the first name he could think of as an alibi is a non-starter.
It must rate as one of the weakest alibis in law enforcement history and something only an utter moron would come up with.
Or...
...Shelley was lying...
...again.
He lied about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and he was lying again about interacting with Oswald.
Of course Nutters will cry "but Oswald was crazy".
That may well be, but he wasn't so stupid as to think his Shelley alibi would stand up if it was false.
Oswald expected Shelley to back him up.
But only an accomplice would do that.
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Looking through the various notes and reports pertaining to Oswald's interrogation, his alibi has a few different elements:
According to what Oswald reportedly said -
1] He was in the lunch room on the first floor (the Domino Room) when JFK's limo drove by the building.
2] After this he went up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke
3] He bought the Coke and was drinking it when Baker burst in, gun drawn.
4] He went back down to the first floor.
5] At some point he got together with Bill Shelley.
6] As a consequence of his conversation with Shelley, Oswald decided to leave.
7] Oswald left the building.
1) Apparently Oswald liked Kennedy and in addition Oswald was very political and this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And Oswald didn't exactly have to go out of his way to see the parade, so why didn't he go out and have a look or even just go to a window? Well, we all know Oswald did in fact go to a window and watched the Parade through the scope on his rifle!
2) Oswald like Dr Pepper and there was a Dr Pepper machine on the 1st floor.
3) Both Baker and Truly testified that Oswald wasn't holding a coke.
4) Yes, yes he did!
5) As your Shelley quote from his testimony points out, Shelley didn't see Oswald and I don't believe that Shelley was alone in the minutes following the assassination and nobody else saw Oswald with Shelley?
6) No, Oswald was in the flight of his life!
7) Right! Oswald has left the building!
JohnM
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1) Apparently Oswald liked Kennedy and in addition Oswald was very political and this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And Oswald didn't exactly have to go out of his way to see the parade, so why didn't he go out and have a look or even just go to a window? Well, we all know Oswald did in fact go to a window and watched the Parade through the scope on his rifle!
2) Oswald like Dr Pepper and there was a Dr Pepper machine on the 1st floor.
3) Both Baker and Truly testified that Oswald wasn't holding a coke.
4) Yes, yes he did!
5) As your Shelley quote from his testimony points out, Shelley didn't see Oswald and I don't believe that Shelley was alone in the minutes following the assassination and nobody else saw Oswald with Shelley?
6) No, Oswald was in the flight of his life!
7) Right! Oswald has left the building!
JohnM
That's quite weird, John.
Any chance of dealing with the issue I raise in my post.
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That's quite weird, John.
Any chance of dealing with the issue I raise in my post.
This is “Mytton”. There is no chance.
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Lyndon Baines Johnson
"Dry Hole" Byrd
Jack Cason
William Shelley
Mac Wallace or John Daugherty (shooter)
Oswald ("patsy")
That is the sum total of the simplest conspiracy theory I can imagine.
If you were completely honest, you'd admit that oodles and gobs of other unknown-to-you people must have been involved.
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If you were completely honest, you'd admit that oodles and gobs of other unknown-to-you people must have been involved.
There are other people involved but, other than the patsy (and the ejected Mac Wallace) it is a list of conspirators who knew what was going to happen that day.
Those who knew there was going to be an assassination attempt.
Georges De Morenschildt has to be involved in some capacity. This known friend and associate of the Byrd family who decides to befriend Oswald. An international man of mystery and flamboyant socialite befriending this hostile, sulking loner living in abject poverty. It is so weird and impossible to leave out. De Morenschildt's testimony reveals that he couldn't stand either of the Oswald's but he keeps having to insist there was something he liked about Lee, and then a few sentences later he'll be talking about something he really disliked about him. It is a genuinely bizarre aspect of this whole story and, although De Morenschildt can't be left out, I'm not 100% sure how he fits in. I just don't need him to have foreknowledge of the assassination.
And then there's Shelley's sidekick, his "Igor", Billy Lovelady. He doesn't have a clue what's going on and just does what he's told, although he keeps almost effing things up because he can't keep his story straight. Lovelady does what he's told to do and says what he's told to say but he has no foreknowledge of the assassination as he couldn't be trusted with that knowledge.
In my made up theory these are the only people who had certain foreknowledge:
LBJ, Byrd, Cason, Shelley and Dougherty.
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In my made-up theory, these are the only people who had certain foreknowledge of the assassination: LBJ, Byrd, Cason, Shelley and Dougherty.
Which one created CE-399 and either "planted" it or gave it directly to Elmer Todd?
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Which one created CE-399 and either "planted" it or gave it directly to Elmer Todd?
This is a question you have to answer.
It has been demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that CE399 was NOT the bullet found in Parkland.
You don't have a single shred of evidence that it was.
So how do you explain the existence of CE399?
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This is a question you have to answer.
It has been demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that CE399 was NOT the bullet found in Parkland.
You don't have a single shred of evidence that it was.
So how do you explain the existence of CE399?
Oswald fired it at a wild pig down by the river but it went through another wild pig that intervened at the last second and it (the bullet) started tumbling before it hit the pig Oswald was actually aiming at and since it was tumbling, it sideswiped a bone in the pig and fractured it and got strangely deformed in the process and then it exited the pig and someone who works at Parkland Hospital was walking along the river later that day and found it (the bullet, that is) and put in their pocket but their pocket had a hole in it and when they walked in to work the next day they realized that their shoe laces had become untied so they sat down on a gurney and tied their shoe and the bullet fell out of the hole in their pocket and rolled under a pillow or something and it was just a coincidence that they brought Governor Connally into the hospital later that day on the very same gurney and t Tomlinson happened to bump into the gurney in the hallway after they'd taken Connally off of it and it rolled out from under the pillow or something and that he saw it and picked it up and showed it to O. P. Wright who, as an older, may have already been suffering from the onset of dementia?
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Oswald fired it at a wild pig down by the river but it went through another wild pig that intervened at the last second and it (the bullet) started tumbling before it hit the pig Oswald was actually aiming at and since it was tumbling, it sideswiped a bone in the pig and fractured it and got strangely deformed in the process and then it exited the pig and someone who works at Parkland Hospital was walking along the river later that day and found it (the bullet, that is) and put in their pocket but their pocket had a hole in it and when they walked in to work the next day they realized that their shoe laces had become untied so they sat down on a gurney and tied their shoe and the bullet fell out of the hole in their pocket and rolled under a pillow or something and it was just a coincidence that they brought Governor Connally into the hospital later that day on the very same gurney and t Tomlinson happened to bump into the gurney in the hallway after they'd taken Connally off of it and it rolled out from under the pillow or something and he saw it?
:-X
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:-X
I was still writing it when you so anxiously posted it, O'meara, so here it is in its complete (for now) form.
Enjoy!
Oswald fired his short-rifle at a wild pig down by the river but the distinctive round-nosed bullet went through another wild pig that intervened at the last second and it (the bullet) started tumbling before it hit the pig Oswald was actually aiming at and since it was tumbling, it sideswiped a bone in the pig and fractured it and got strangely deformed in the process and then it exited the pig and someone who works at Parkland Hospital was walking along the river later that day and found it (the bullet, that is) and put in their pocket but their pocket had a hole in it and when they walked in to work the next day they realized that their shoe laces had become untied so they sat down on a gurney and tied their shoe and the bullet fell out of the hole in their pocket and rolled under a pillow or something and it was just a coincidence that they brought Governor Connally into the hospital later that day on the very same gurney and that an employee by the name of Tomlinson happened to bump into the gurney in the hallway after they'd taken Connally off of it and it rolled out from under the pillow or something and he saw it and picked it up and showed it to his boss, O. P. Wright, who, as an older dude, may have already been suffering from the onset of dementia?
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I was still writing it when you so anxiously posted it, O'meara, so here it is in its complete (for now) form.
Enjoy!
Oswald fired his short-rifle at a wild pig down by the river but the distinctive round-nosed bullet went through another wild pig that intervened at the last second and it (the bullet) started tumbling before it hit the pig Oswald was actually aiming at and since it was tumbling, it sideswiped a bone in the pig and fractured it and got strangely deformed in the process and then it exited the pig and someone who works at Parkland Hospital was walking along the river later that day and found it (the bullet, that is) and put in their pocket but their pocket had a hole in it and when they walked in to work the next day they realized that their shoe laces had become untied so they sat down on a gurney and tied their shoe and the bullet fell out of the hole in their pocket and rolled under a pillow or something and it was just a coincidence that they brought Governor Connally into the hospital later that day on the very same gurney and that an employee by the name of Tomlinson happened to bump into the gurney in the hallway after they'd taken Connally off of it and it rolled out from under the pillow or something and he saw it and picked it up and showed it to his boss, O. P. Wright, who, as an older dude, may have already been suffering from the onset of dementia?
;D
Just making sure there's a copy of this for when you sober up.
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I was still writing it when you so anxiously posted it, O'meara, so here it is in its complete (for now) form.
Enjoy!
Oswald fired his short-rifle at a wild pig down by the river but the distinctive round-nosed bullet went through another wild pig that intervened at the last second and it (the bullet) started tumbling before it hit the pig Oswald was actually aiming at and since it was tumbling, it sideswiped a bone in the pig and fractured it and got strangely deformed in the process and then it exited the pig and someone who works at Parkland Hospital was walking along the river later that day and found it (the bullet, that is) and put in their pocket but their pocket had a hole in it and when they walked in to work the next day they realized that their shoe laces had become untied so they sat down on a gurney and tied their shoe and the bullet fell out of the hole in their pocket and rolled under a pillow or something and it was just a coincidence that they brought Governor Connally into the hospital later that day on the very same gurney and that an employee by the name of Tomlinson happened to bump into the gurney in the hallway after they'd taken Connally off of it and it rolled out from under the pillow or something and that he saw it and picked it up and showed it to O. P. Wright who, as an older dude, may have already been suffering from the onset of dementia?
:D Nice!
And so, the so-called "Walker note" was, in fact, referring to a wild pig hunt - correct? And, moreover, the brain of the pig was substituted for JFK's at the autopsy - correct? And when Oswald said "I'm just a patsy" he actually thought they'd arrested him for pig hunting without a license - correct? It's all starting to come together for me now.
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:D Nice!
And so, the so-called "Walker note" was, in fact, referring to a wild pig hunt - correct? And, moreover, the brain of the pig was substituted for JFK's at the autopsy - correct? And when Oswald said "I'm just a patsy" he actually thought they'd arrested him for pig hunting without a license - correct? It's all starting to come together for me now.
::)
You guys.
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Appeals to ridicule are tacit admissions that the actual point cannot be addressed.
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This is a question you have to answer.
It has been demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that CE399 was NOT the bullet found in Parkland.
You don't have a single shred of evidence that it was.
So how do you explain the existence of CE399?
Whether or not CE-399, with ballistic marks from Oswald's short-rifle on it, was the bullet that was found at Parkland Hospital (at least you're admitting that a bullet was found at Parkland Hospital), who fired it from Oswald's short-rifle, how did it get so strangely deformed, where was it found or "found," and how did it end up being given to FBI agent Elmer Todd?
If it wasn't found at Parkland Hospital by Tomlinson, and if it wasn't found an innocent person somewhere else (the riverbank?) and given to his or her buddy Tomlinson (a natural-born prankster, evidently) for some unknown reason, which conspirator initiated the process of its being given to FBI agent Todd (or was HE one of the bad guys, too?), and why did the bad guys include Tomlinson, et al., in the "bogus chain of possession"?
Which goes back to my original question -- How many bad guys and/or really, really bad gals do you think were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
It doesn't have to be exact, O'meara -- plus or minus ten or so.
Oodles and gobs?
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The MC rifle on the 6th floor. Was it fired by a conspirator shooter or did he just pre plant that rifle, while he used a totally different rifle firing a pointed bullet? The conspirator shooter took his special rifle that folds in half , with him as he escaped using the west elevator while Truly and Baker were ascending the stairs just after they had seen Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom?
Could Oswald have devised this diabolical plan of pre planting the mail order MC on Wed/Nov 21/63 late by using a bus to transport him from his boarding room to TSBD later that night?
If Oswald had the MC rifle at his boarding room which he could have removed from the Paines garage in Oct/63 ( thus the note that Mrs Paine wrote on her calendar in the Oct block). Oswald decided to pre plant the mail order MC rifle on late night of Wed/Nov 20/63 after he was inspired earlier that day by Warren Castor showing off 2 rifles to Roy Truly. Oswald took a bus from boarding house to take the rifle into TSBD after work hours , then took taxi or another bus back to boarding room.
On Thursday afternoon, Oswald gets a ride from B.W. Frazier in order to get the Carbine Cavalry MC rifle from the Paines garage where he had left it hidden somewhere better than in the blanket that he had kept the 40” MC rifle which he removed by Oct/63.
Was there a 2nd type of MC rifle , the Cavalry Carbine version, which Oswald could have bought in Mexico untraceable to himself?
If so, the Cavalry Carbine MC rifle has a much shorter wooden stock and barrel and when disassembled could easily fit in 24” length bag.
So here is a speculative CT devious plan by the Marxist kook with delusions of grandeur:
To plant the MC mail order rifle with only one unfired round in the chamber, between some boxes near the staircase. The Kook thinks that he can make it appear like a set up of himself. He figures the bullets he fires from his Cavalry Carbine MC when the shells are found, and any bullets found will cause a problem for the authorities as they will be the same type 6.5 mm bullets ( except maybe pointed?) and they will NOT match the MC 40” rifle that is found.
Oswald is betting that they will be under great pressure to link that MC 40” rifle to him because of the serial no. Linking to a Fake ID and Oswald’s own P.O.Box too. He will carry the fake ID with him when he makes a call to Tippit , setting up Tippit to be shot by 1:07 pm after shooting Tippit and throwing shells at the scene ( he thinks this will be reason for a jury to consider that as a set up going on) , Oswald will run around with the gun in the air and make sure that some people see him throwing a jacket under a car. The final act is to make himself appear suspicious at Brewers store about 1:30 and then hopefully the police will be called when Brewer spots Oswald going into the theater without stopping at the ticket booth.
Oswald will go home with B.W.Frazier on Thursday to implement the his plan to carry the Cavalry carbine MC disassembled to fit in a 20” length bag , which he will make sure that BWF will notice by placing the package in plain view on the back seat of the car. Oswald also hopes that BWF will notice how his carries the package under his armpit and other end in the palm of his hand.
Oswald also made a fake transfer ticket resembling McWatters punched tickets which he kept in his shirt pocket. This is because he had plan to go straight to catch a taxi by 12:40 so he needs the ticket to make it appear he was on a bus 7 blocks from TSBD at 12:43-45 and therefore he could not possibly have walked or even run, to a position 1.5 blocks east of 10th and Patton, turn around, walk back 1.5 blocks towards Tippit and shoot him only 7 minutes from when Oswald left his boarding house at 1:04 pm.
Oswald is counting on Earlene Roberts being a dingbat who will not remember how early he actually arrived at 12:50 by using Whaleys taxi.
So that’s why Oswald only mentioned having taken a bus to Fritz and not anything about a taxi.
The escape from TSBD plan:
Oswald was able to get down to the 2nd floor lunchroom by 55 secs post shots as he could run immediately , carrying his Cavalry Carbine MC rifle with him, to the East elevator , held on the 6th floor by an Accomplice. After dropping off Oswald on 2nd floor storage room, the accomplice returns the east elevator to the 5th floor by 70-75 secs. This Oswald figures will allow him a good chance of getting down to the 2nd floor lunchroom unseen by any would be TSBD employees using stairs or standing by the stairs.
Exiting onto the storage room from the east elevator , Oswald hides the Cavalry Carbine rifle under the floor planks , or in a box scheduled to be sent out. and then goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom, buys a coke. His plan now is to simply go down the staircase to 1st floor, then out thru the west back door of the TSBD annex bldg.
The accomplice may or may not be involved in disposing of the cavalry carbine rifle at some later date, or the box was labeled to be sent somewhere where the accomplice can pick
It up days later.
The plan at this stage is interrupted by Baker / Truly ascending the staircase which forced Oswald to turn around and go back into the lunchroom. He was just opening the lunchroom door when Baker arrived on the 2nd floor landing about 85 secs post shots. The flicker of light of the door opening and closing caught Bakers eye, which caused him to move over to where he could see Oswald in the lunchroom thru the 2x2 window.
After the brief interaction, Oswald figured it would be to his advantage to slowly enter into the 2nd floor office and hope someone would see him moving slowly carrying a coke. Fortunately, Mrs Reid entered the front door and saw Oswald doing just as he had planned. And the really ingenious part of this plan was to take off his brown shirt and hide it in his pants so that Mrs Reid would remember seeing him only wearing a T-shirt.
The final part of the escape plan was to get out of TSBD in a way which would seem impossible. Oswald figured he could linger in the front lobby and maybe some reporters might ask him some questions. And then once he saw that the front doors were locked Oswald figured he could go out the rear west door of the annex building attached to TSBD as that door would likely not yet be guarded or locked.
The plan is not yet finished though, because Oswald has one other devious deception planned which was to linger around by the SW corner of TSBD until about 12:45, then to run down to a 2nd accomplice driving a Rambler station wagon very similar to Ruth Paines car.
The whistle is blown several times to hopefully attract attention of people nearby, and then
Oswald runs down to catch the car. This, Oswald figures will further confuse the investigators and will aid his overall plan of making it appear as though he was being set up. He hopes to implicate Ruth Paine whom he does not like any more than he did Earlene Roberts and Bledsoe.
Tippit shooting alternate plan:
Oswald figures that a 3rd accomplice who looks very similar to himself can do the Tippit shooting , drop shells at the scene, discard a jacket, linger at store suspiciously and lead police to the Texas theater. This 3rd accomplice will then
Give the revolver to Oswald who having arrived much earlier to his boarding room at 12:50, was able to walk to the theater and be seen (hopefully) by a couple of people as Oswald bought popcorn at1:07-1:15 and was seated at 1:20pm.
Oswald figures that there will be serious doubt that he could be either the JFK assassin or the Tippit shooter and that is why he begins the “I’m a Patsy” routine by shouting that he is not resisting arrest after he pulls out the revolver that the 3rd accomplice had given him only about 10 minutes earlier.
The final chapter of the plan was that Oswald would get a famous attorney who liked communist Kooks , to put on a fabulous trial of the century where Oswald could enjoy all the fame he desired, and all the clever planted evidence and the aid of 3 accomplices would convince the jury that Oswald was a patsy.
It might have worked except for the unexpected Jack Ruby shooting Oswald with just one bullet laced with cyanide , thus Oswald only achieved a post mortem infamy while leaving the public to guess whether he did it or not.
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The MC rifle on the 6th floor. Was it fired by a conspirator shooter or did he just pre plant that rifle, while he used a totally different rifle firing a pointed bullet? The conspirator shooter took his special rifle that folds in half , with him as he escaped using the west elevator while Truly and Baker were ascending the stairs just after they had seen Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom?
Could Oswald have devised this diabolical plan of pre planting the mail order MC on Wed/Nov 21/63 late by using a bus to transport him from his boarding room to TSBD later that night?
If Oswald had the MC rifle at his boarding room which he could have removed from the Paines garage in Oct/63 ( thus the note that Mrs Paine wrote on her calendar in the Oct block). Oswald decided to pre plant the mail order MC rifle on late night of Wed/Nov 20/63 after he was inspired earlier that day by Warren Castor showing off 2 rifles to Roy Truly. Oswald took a bus from boarding house to take the rifle into TSBD after work hours , then took taxi or another bus back to boarding room.
On Thursday afternoon, Oswald gets a ride from B.W. Frazier in order to get the Carbine Cavalry MC rifle from the Paines garage where he had left it hidden somewhere better than in the blanket that he had kept the 40” MC rifle which he removed by Oct/63.
Was there a 2nd type of MC rifle , the Cavalry Carbine version, which Oswald could have bought in Mexico untraceable to himself?
If so, the Cavalry Carbine MC rifle has a much shorter wooden stock and barrel and when disassembled could easily fit in 24” length bag.
So here is a speculative CT devious plan by the Marxist kook with delusions of grandeur:
To plant the MC mail order rifle with only one unfired round in the chamber, between some boxes near the staircase. The Kook thinks that he can make it appear like a set up of himself. He figures the bullets he fires from his Cavalry Carbine MC when the shells are found, and any bullets found will cause a problem for the authorities as they will be the same type 6.5 mm bullets ( except maybe pointed?) and they will NOT match the MC 40” rifle that is found.
Oswald is betting that they will be under great pressure to link that MC 40” rifle to him because of the serial no. Linking to a Fake ID and Oswald’s own P.O.Box too. He will carry the fake ID with him when he makes a call to Tippit , setting up Tippit to be shot by 1:07 pm after shooting Tippit and throwing shells at the scene ( he thinks this will be reason for a jury to consider that as a set up going on) , Oswald will run around with the gun in the air and make sure that some people see him throwing a jacket under a car. The final act is to make himself appear suspicious at Brewers store about 1:30 and then hopefully the police will be called when Brewer spots Oswald going into the theater without stopping at the ticket booth.
Oswald will go home with B.W.Frazier on Thursday to implement the his plan to carry the Cavalry carbine MC disassembled to fit in a 20” length bag , which he will make sure that BWF will notice by placing the package in plain view on the back seat of the car. Oswald also hopes that BWF will notice how his carries the package under his armpit and other end in the palm of his hand.
Oswald also made a fake transfer ticket resembling McWatters punched tickets which he kept in his shirt pocket. This is because he had plan to go straight to catch a taxi by 12:40 so he needs the ticket to make it appear he was on a bus 7 blocks from TSBD at 12:43-45 and therefore he could not possibly have walked or even run, to a position 1.5 blocks east of 10th and Patton, turn around, walk back 1.5 blocks towards Tippit and shoot him only 7 minutes from when Oswald left his boarding house at 1:04 pm.
Oswald is counting on Earlene Roberts being a dingbat who will not remember how early he actually arrived at 12:50 by using Whaleys taxi.
So that’s why Oswald only mentioned having taken a bus to Fritz and not anything about a taxi.
The escape from TSBD plan:
Oswald was able to get down to the 2nd floor lunchroom by 55 secs post shots as he could run immediately , carrying his Cavalry Carbine MC rifle with him, to the East elevator , held on the 6th floor by an Accomplice. After dropping off Oswald on 2nd floor storage room, the accomplice returns the east elevator to the 5th floor by 70-75 secs. This Oswald figures will allow him a good chance of getting down to the 2nd floor lunchroom unseen by any would be TSBD employees using stairs or standing by the stairs.
Exiting onto the storage room from the east elevator , Oswald hides the Cavalry Carbine rifle under the floor planks , or in a box scheduled to be sent out. and then goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom, buys a coke. His plan now is to simply go down the staircase to 1st floor, then out thru the west back door of the TSBD annex bldg.
The accomplice may or may not be involved in disposing of the cavalry carbine rifle at some later date, or the box was labeled to be sent somewhere where the accomplice can pick
It up days later.
The plan at this stage is interrupted by Baker / Truly ascending the staircase which forced Oswald to turn around and go back into the lunchroom. He was just opening the lunchroom door when Baker arrived on the 2nd floor landing about 85 secs post shots. The flicker of light of the door opening and closing caught Bakers eye, which caused him to move over to where he could see Oswald in the lunchroom thru the 2x2 window.
After the brief interaction, Oswald figured it would be to his advantage to slowly enter into the 2nd floor office and hope someone would see him moving slowly carrying a coke. Fortunately, Mrs Reid entered the front door and saw Oswald doing just as he had planned. And the really ingenious part of this plan was to take off his brown shirt and hide it in his pants so that Mrs Reid would remember seeing him only wearing a T-shirt.
The final part of the escape plan was to get out of TSBD in a way which would seem impossible. Oswald figured he could linger in the front lobby and maybe some reporters might ask him some questions. And then once he saw that the front doors were locked Oswald figured he could go out the rear west door of the annex building attached to TSBD as that door would likely not yet be guarded or locked.
The plan is not yet finished though, because Oswald has one other devious deception planned which was to linger around by the SW corner of TSBD until about 12:45, then to run down to a 2nd accomplice driving a Rambler station wagon very similar to Ruth Paines car.
The whistle is blown several times to hopefully attract attention of people nearby, and then
Oswald runs down to catch the car. This, Oswald figures will further confuse the investigators and will aid his overall plan of making it appear as though he was being set up. He hopes to implicate Ruth Paine whom he does not like any more than he did Earlene Roberts and Bledsoe.
Tippit shooting alternate plan:
Oswald figures that a 3rd accomplice who looks very similar to himself can do the Tippit shooting , drop shells at the scene, discard a jacket, linger at store suspiciously and lead police to the Texas theater. This 3rd accomplice will then
Give the revolver to Oswald who having arrived much earlier to his boarding room at 12:50, was able to walk to the theater and be seen (hopefully) by a couple of people as Oswald bought popcorn at1:07-1:15 and was seated at 1:20pm.
Oswald figures that there will be serious doubt that he could be either the JFK assassin or the Tippit shooter and that is why he begins the “I’m a Patsy” routine by shouting that he is not resisting arrest after he pulls out the revolver that the 3rd accomplice had given him only about 10 minutes earlier.
The final chapter of the plan was that Oswald would get a famous attorney who liked communist Kooks , to put on a fabulous trial of the century where Oswald could enjoy all the fame he desired, and all the clever planted evidence and the aid of 3 accomplices would convince the jury that Oswald was a patsy.
It might have worked except for the unexpected Jack Ruby shooting Oswald with just one bullet laced with cyanide , thus Oswald only achieved a post mortem infamy while leaving the public to guess whether he did it or not.
Did CE-399 and the bullet fragments found in the limo have ballistics marks on them from Oswald's Carcano?
Did Oswald's Carcano (which was found on the sixth floor) have Oswald's prints on it?
Had the three shells found on the Sniper's Nest floor been ejected from Oswald's Carcano?
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Answers to Tom’s questions:
1. Yes, it would appear that CE399 was fired from that 40” MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD. Yes, the fragments that were stated to be found in the limo( but not photographed in place) appear to be linked to the MC rifle.
However, the CE 399 bullet could have been a test fired bullet and fragments likewise came from test firing the MC rifle. This possibility is not substantiated by any whistleblower or document so it will remain as a CT speculation.
2: Yes, it would appear Lt.Day lifted a palm print off the barrel of that 40” MC rifle that matched Oswald’s hand. However the unwillingness of Lt.Day to sign an affidavit swearing he told FBI agent Drain about the print, while on the contrary, Drain signed an affidavit stating he was never told, introduces reasonable doubt.
Nevertheless, it could very well be true that a print was lifted from the barrel proving that at some point in time, Oswald had touched the barrel of the 40” MC rifle found on the 6th floor of TSBD at 1:20 pm per Boone and Weitzman reports.
3. Yes, 3 shells were produced that appear to have been fired from the 40”MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD. Whether those 3 shells are the same 3 shells that Luke Mooney saw on the floor by the TSBD 6th floor SE window before photographs were taken is uncertain because Mooney did not place any marks on the shells before they were picked up by Will Fritz.
Speculative alternative: Fritz picked up the shells on the floor to have them examined and on finding that they did NOT match the 40” MC rifle, Fritz waited until the MC rifle was test fired, and then he took 3 shells from that test and returned to TSBD and threw them back on the floor.
Except for Tom Aleya, and maybe Roger Craig, there is no other witness or whistleblower to substantiate Fritz swapping shells he picked up from the floor for different test fired shells from the 40”MC rifle.
These 3 questions by Tom and my 3 answers , plus my previous lengthy “simple conspiracy” theory of Oswald being the 6th floor shooter using a similar 6.5mm Cavalry Carbine rifle, demonstrates that this theory is far more complex than the WC simple theory of Oswald using the MC 40” rifle and acting without aid of any other persons.
Therefore, ruling out that Oswald was a conspirator shooter with aid by at least 1 other person to aid Oswald using the East elevator to bypass Dorothy Garner unseen, leaves only the other CT alternative of a conspirator shooter at the SE 6th floor window either using the 40” MC rifle or using a different rifle after he had replanted the MC rifle in the boxes.
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Answers to Tom’s questions:
1. Yes, it would appear that CE399 was fired from that 40” MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD. Yes, the fragments that were stated to be found in the limo( but not photographed in place) appear to be linked to the MC rifle.
However, the CE 399 bullet could have been a test fired bullet and fragments likewise came from test firing the MC rifle. This possibility is not substantiated by any whistleblower or document so it will remain as a CT speculation.
2: Yes, it would appear Lt. Day lifted a palm print off the barrel of that 40” MC rifle that matched Oswald’s hand. However the unwillingness of Lt.Day to sign an affidavit swearing he told FBI agent Drain about the print, while on the contrary, Drain signed an affidavit stating he was never told, introduces reasonable doubt.
Nevertheless, it could very well be true that a print was lifted from the barrel proving that at some point in time, Oswald had touched the barrel of the 40” MC rifle found on the 6th floor of TSBD at 1:20 pm per Boone and Weitzman reports.
3. Yes, 3 shells were produced that appear to have been fired from the 40”MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD. Whether those 3 shells are the same 3 shells that Luke Mooney saw on the floor by the TSBD 6th floor SE window before photographs were taken is uncertain because Mooney did not place any marks on the shells before they were picked up by Will Fritz.
Speculative alternative: Fritz picked up the shells on the floor to have them examined and on finding that they did NOT match the 40” MC rifle, Fritz waited until the MC rifle was test fired, and then he took 3 shells from that test and returned to TSBD and threw them back on the floor.
Except for Tom Aleya, and maybe Roger Craig, there is no other witness or whistleblower to substantiate Fritz swapping shells he picked up from the floor for different test fired shells from the 40”MC rifle.
These 3 questions by Tom and my 3 answers , plus my previous lengthy “simple conspiracy” theory of Oswald being the 6th floor shooter using a similar 6.5mm Cavalry Carbine rifle, demonstrates that this theory is far more complex than the WC simple theory of Oswald using the MC 40” rifle and acting without aid of any other persons.
Therefore, ruling out that Oswald was a conspirator shooter with aid by at least 1 other person to aid Oswald using the East elevator to bypass Dorothy Garner unseen, leaves only the other CT alternative of a conspirator shooter at the SE 6th floor window either using the 40” MC rifle or using a different rifle after he had replanted the MC rifle in the boxes.
Appear, Appear, Appear?
LOL!
How many bad guys and bad gals do you figure were wittingly involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Oodles and gobs?
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Appear, Appear, Appear?
LOL!
How many bad guys and bad gals do you figure were wittingly involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Oodles and gobs?
Including ALL the Fake Newser's, how many people do you believe were involved in the Cover-up that POTUS Joe Biden was, "Cuckoo-for-Cocoa-Puffs"? These people KNOW their job function. They do Not require a "huddle up" with a QB telling them what to do.
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Including ALL the Fake Newser's, how many people do you believe were involved in the Cover-up that POTUS Joe Biden was, "Cuckoo-for-Cocoa-Puffs"? These people KNOW their job function. They do Not require a "huddle up" with a QB telling them what to do.
Storing,
It seems to me that you're suffering from a very bad case of Biden Derangement Syndrome.
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No, Tom, for those of us advocating for a USA first policy which we believe is a natural common sense thing, the memory of Biden is more like PTSD. The Illegal Alien invasion of USA and that “Woke”ideology that the Marxist Left Democrat party tried to enact into law is a traumatic event that is difficult to forget.
As to the question of how many conspirators would be needed to alter evidence and make false reports and ignore witnesses , and conduct a sham investigation , you should consult with the former Democrat Party Central Committee members like Adam Schiff , Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.
Now, back to Simple (pre planned) Conspiracy Theory alternatives.
The concept:
A single conspirator shooter used his own special rifle while preplantng the 40” MC rifle to implicate or least cast suspicion towards Oswald. The conspirator wants to cause as much confusion and distress to the American public as possible, and the planting of a rifle different than his own he thinks is like adding insult to injury as well as perhaps some revenge on Oswald whom the shooter has disdain for, possibly because he considered Oswald to be a pro Castro Marxist.
The Plan:
1. A conspirator shooter pre planted the 40” MC rifle that was found on the 6th floor TSBD at 1:20pm by Weitzman and Boone.
2. The conspirator had previously found out about Oswald having that rifle after the Walker shooting. (Oswald had in fact taken a shot at Walker)
3. The conspirator stole the MC rifle from Oswalds boarding house or from the Paines garage probably within just a few days if not hours before Nov 22/63.
4. The conspirator took both his own special type rifle with folding stock and the MC rifle into TSBD probably just after midnight Thursday Nov/22/63, up to the 6th floor, where he placed the MC rifle in between boxes.
5. The shooter then hid his special rifle on the 7th floor ( attic space) and slept there for a few hours until daylight.
6. At about 12:00 pm Friday, Nov 22/63, the shooter went down to the TSBD 6th floor to take a quick look. He neither saw nor heard BRW on the floor at that time.
7. The shooter went back up to the 7th floor to get his folding stock rifle and carry it with him under his coat. He returned to the 6th floor not knowing that BRW had arrived and that BRW was over at the SE window.
8. The shooters original plan was to shoot from the SW 6th floor window affording him a quicker escape to the rear stair case or to an elevator.
9. The shooter was momentarily seen at the SW window by Arnold Rowland at 12:15. During this time, Oswald was seen by Carolyn Arnold seated in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
10. The shooter became aware of BRW at the SE window, while BRW was not aware of the shooter because of a wall of boxes at the SE window. BRW was also looking out and down at the Dealey plaza.
11. The shooter retreated from the SW window 10 secs after 12:15, folding his rifle and hiding it under his coat.He moved over to the east wall of the 6th floor going behind BRW at the SE window, and found someplace he could hide with LOS thru a narrow gap, so that he would know if BRW would leave the floor.
12. At 12:20 BRW left the SE window and walked past the hidden shooter to take an elevator down to the 5th floor.
13. At 12:21, the shooter decides he will shoot from the SE window as he knows that the JFK limo is soon to arrive in Dealey plaza.
14. The shooter arranges a few boxes and places one on the window ledge either for shade or for a resting his rifle on. The window ledge box is in place just before 12:25.
15: the firing of 3 shots in less than 6 secs begins at Z224 and ends about 1 sec after the Z313 shot. The 3rd shot is the one that missed just above JFKs head and struck the curb near James Tague.
The escape: To be continued…
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No, Tom, for those of us advocating for a USA first policy which we believe is a natural common sense thing, the memory of Biden is more like PTSD. The Illegal Alien invasion of USA and that “Woke”ideology that the Marxist Left Democrat party tried to enact into law is a traumatic event that is difficult to forget.
As to the question of how many conspirators would be needed to alter evidence and make false reports and ignore witnesses , and conduct a sham investigation , you should consult with the former Democrat Party Central Committee members like Adam Schiff , Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.
Now, back to Simple (pre planned) Conspiracy Theory alternatives.
The concept:
A single conspirator shooter used his own special rifle while preplantng the 40” MC rifle to implicate or least cast suspicion towards Oswald. The conspirator wants to cause as much confusion and distress to the American public as possible, and the planting of a rifle different than his own he thinks is like adding insult to injury as well as perhaps some revenge on Oswald whom the shooter has disdain for, possibly because he considered Oswald to be a pro Castro Marxist.
The Plan:
1. A conspirator shooter pre planted the 40” MC rifle that was found on the 6th floor TSBD at 1:20pm by Weitzman and Boone.
2. The conspirator had previously found out about Oswald having that rifle after the Walker shooting. (Oswald had in fact taken a shot at Walker)
3. The conspirator stole the MC rifle from Oswalds boarding house or from the Paines garage probably within just a few days if not hours before Nov 22/63.
4. The conspirator took both his own special type rifle with folding stock and the MC rifle into TSBD probably just after midnight Thursday Nov/22/63, up to the 6th floor, where he placed the MC rifle in between boxes.
5. The shooter then hid his special rifle on the 7th floor ( attic space) and slept there for a few hours until daylight.
6. At about 12:00 pm Friday, Nov 22/63, the shooter went down to the TSBD 6th floor to take a quick look. He neither saw nor heard BRW on the floor at that time.
7. The shooter went back up to the 7th floor to get his folding stock rifle and carry it with him under his coat. He returned to the 6th floor not knowing that BRW had arrived and that BRW was over at the SE window.
8. The shooters original plan was to shoot from the SW 6th floor window affording him a quicker escape to the rear stair case or to an elevator.
9. The shooter was momentarily seen at the SW window by Arnold Rowland at 12:15. During this time, Oswald was seen by Carolyn Arnold seated in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
10. The shooter became aware of BRW at the SE window, while BRW was not aware of the shooter because of a wall of boxes at the SE window. BRW was also looking out and down at the Dealey plaza.
11. The shooter retreated from the SW window 10 secs after 12:15, folding his rifle and hiding it under his coat.He moved over to the east wall of the 6th floor going behind BRW at the SE window, and found someplace he could hide with LOS thru a narrow gap, so that he would know if BRW would leave the floor.
12. At 12:20 BRW left the SE window and walked past the hidden shooter to take an elevator down to the 5th floor.
13. At 12:21, the shooter decides he will shoot from the SE window as he knows that the JFK limo is soon to arrive in Dealey plaza.
14. The shooter arranges a few boxes and places one on the window ledge either for shade or for a resting his rifle on. The window ledge box is in place just before 12:25.
15: the firing of 3 shots in less than 6 secs begins at Z224 and ends about 1 sec after the Z313 shot. The 3rd shot is the one that missed just above JFKs head and struck the curb near James Tague.
The escape: To be continued…
Do you think lots of people were wittingly involved in the JFKA's planning, "patsy-ing," shooting, and all-important cover up, or just a few?
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No, Tom, for those of us advocating for a USA first policy which we believe is a natural common sense thing, the memory of Biden is more like PTSD. The Illegal Alien invasion of USA and that “Woke”ideology that the Marxist Left Democrat party tried to enact into law is a traumatic event that is difficult to forget.
As to the question of how many conspirators would be needed to alter evidence and make false reports and ignore witnesses , and conduct a sham investigation , you should consult with the former Democrat Party Central Committee members like Adam Schiff , Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.
Now, back to Simple (pre planned) Conspiracy Theory alternatives.
The concept:
A single conspirator shooter used his own special rifle while preplantng the 40” MC rifle to implicate or least cast suspicion towards Oswald. The conspirator wants to cause as much confusion and distress to the American public as possible, and the planting of a rifle different than his own he thinks is like adding insult to injury as well as perhaps some revenge on Oswald whom the shooter has disdain for, possibly because he considered Oswald to be a pro Castro Marxist.
The Plan:
1. A conspirator shooter pre planted the 40” MC rifle that was found on the 6th floor TSBD at 1:20pm by Weitzman and Boone.
2. The conspirator had previously found out about Oswald having that rifle after the Walker shooting. (Oswald had in fact taken a shot at Walker)
3. The conspirator stole the MC rifle from Oswalds boarding house or from the Paines garage probably within just a few days if not hours before Nov 22/63.
4. The conspirator took both his own special type rifle with folding stock and the MC rifle into TSBD probably just after midnight Thursday Nov/22/63, up to the 6th floor, where he placed the MC rifle in between boxes.
5. The shooter then hid his special rifle on the 7th floor ( attic space) and slept there for a few hours until daylight.
6. At about 12:00 pm Friday, Nov 22/63, the shooter went down to the TSBD 6th floor to take a quick look. He neither saw nor heard BRW on the floor at that time.
7. The shooter went back up to the 7th floor to get his folding stock rifle and carry it with him under his coat. He returned to the 6th floor not knowing that BRW had arrived and that BRW was over at the SE window.
8. The shooters original plan was to shoot from the SW 6th floor window affording him a quicker escape to the rear stair case or to an elevator.
9. The shooter was momentarily seen at the SW window by Arnold Rowland at 12:15. During this time, Oswald was seen by Carolyn Arnold seated in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
10. The shooter became aware of BRW at the SE window, while BRW was not aware of the shooter because of a wall of boxes at the SE window. BRW was also looking out and down at the Dealey plaza.
11. The shooter retreated from the SW window 10 secs after 12:15, folding his rifle and hiding it under his coat.He moved over to the east wall of the 6th floor going behind BRW at the SE window, and found someplace he could hide with LOS thru a narrow gap, so that he would know if BRW would leave the floor.
12. At 12:20 BRW left the SE window and walked past the hidden shooter to take an elevator down to the 5th floor.
13. At 12:21, the shooter decides he will shoot from the SE window as he knows that the JFK limo is soon to arrive in Dealey plaza.
14. The shooter arranges a few boxes and places one on the window ledge either for shade or for a resting his rifle on. The window ledge box is in place just before 12:25.
15: the firing of 3 shots in less than 6 secs begins at Z224 and ends about 1 sec after the Z313 shot. The 3rd shot is the one that missed just above JFKs head and struck the curb near James Tague.
The escape: To be continued…
The very clever conspirator must have been a retard if he though he do all that in building full of people walking from floor to floor! No intelligent plan would even dream of trying to operate within such an unstable environment. Makes no sense.
Also, if the whole point of this was to frame Oswald, why the hell would Lee be left to freely roam the building where anyone could see him, talk to him?
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@Jim: The TSBD was an easy building to enter and to move up and down using elevators or stairs as it was an unsecured building.
After work hours it is improbable that all windows and doors of the TSBD were locked.
Even if they were, it would have been easy to break into the building because there was no alarm system tied to all the opening of windows and doors.
I do not recall reading that there was even a night security guard for the building.
So it is entirely plausible a conspirator shooter could get into TSBD on the late night of Thursday Nov 22/63 , and be unseen doing so. And once inside the building , he could have gone up to any floor, except the roof, using the rear staircase. It is doubtful that doors on each staircase were locked, but if they were, a professional conspirator assassin no doubt would be prepared and able to unlock them.
I agree with you Jim, that The planting of the 40” MC rifle would seem to be a “retarded” thing to do by a professional conspirator assassin.
I had to explore this pre planted possibility first in an attempt to explain how the 40” MC rifle was found on the 6th floor TSBD at 1:20 pm, to see if there is some reason why the conspirator would do that , since it would be difficult to keep Oswald from inadvertently having an alibi at the time of shooting.
So one purpose to plant the MC rifle might be to cause confusion for investigators in the aftermath, and or was revenge on Oswald possibly for portraying himself as a Marxist in New Orleans and causing confrontations with Anti Castro Cuban Americans.
There might be some other reasons I have not thought of yet, so any CTs are welcome to jump in here to help out :)
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@Jim: The TSBD was an easy building to enter and to move up and down using elevators or stairs as it was an unsecured building.
After work hours it is improbable that all windows and doors of the TSBD were locked.
Even if they were, it would have been easy to break into the building because there was no alarm system tied to all the opening of windows and doors.
I do not recall reading that there was even a night security guard for the building.
So it is entirely plausible a conspirator shooter could get into TSBD on the late night of Thursday Nov 22/63 , and be unseen doing so. And once inside the building , he could have gone up to any floor, except the roof, using the rear staircase. It is doubtful that doors on each staircase were locked, but if they were, a professional conspirator assassin no doubt would be prepared and able to unlock them.
I agree with you Jim, that The planting of the 40” MC rifle would seem to be a “retarded” thing to do by a professional conspirator assassin.
I had to explore this pre planted possibility first in an attempt to explain how the 40” MC rifle was found on the 6th floor TSBD at 1:20 pm, to see if there is some reason why the conspirator would do that , since it would be difficult to keep Oswald from inadvertently having an alibi at the time of shooting.
So one purpose to plant the MC rifle might be to cause confusion for investigators in the aftermath, and or was revenge on Oswald possibly for portraying himself as a Marxist in New Orleans and causing confrontations with Anti Castro Cuban Americans.
There might be some other reasons I have not thought of yet, so any CTs are welcome to jump in here to help out :)
I get the thing about planting a rifle the day before the shooting but I can't see a conspirator thinking that they could take shots incognito in such a building full of workers freely circulating on all floors.
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Whether or not CE-399, with ballistic marks from Oswald's short-rifle on it, was the bullet that was found at Parkland Hospital (at least you're admitting that a bullet was found at Parkland Hospital), who fired it from Oswald's short-rifle, how did it get so strangely deformed, where was it found or "found," and how did it end up being given to FBI agent Elmer Todd?
If it wasn't found at Parkland Hospital by Tomlinson, and if it wasn't found an innocent person somewhere else (the riverbank?) and given to his or her buddy Tomlinson (a natural-born prankster, evidently) for some unknown reason, which conspirator initiated the process of its being given to FBI agent Todd (or was HE one of the bad guys, too?), and why did the bad guys include Tomlinson, et al., in the "bogus chain of possession"?
Which goes back to my original question -- How many bad guys and/or really, really bad gals do you think were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
It doesn't have to be exact, O'meara -- plus or minus ten or so.
Oodles and gobs?
Poor old Tommy just isn't getting it.
Like all true Nutters he believes his theory is a fact. He simply can't deal with any of the evidence that undermines his shaky belief system, so he pretends it doesn't exist.
REPLY#146 of "The Warren Commission Sham" thread is a litany of questions and issues that brave little Tommy has ducked including this:
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson,the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
There is zero evidence that CE399 was the bullet found at Parkland and an overwhelming amount of evidence that it wasn't the bullet.
Like all good Nutters, Tommy isn't interested in evidence against his theory. He's blind to it and will hold onto his belief that CE399 was the bullet found at Parkland come what may.
He certainly has no intention of trying to deal with any of this in a credible way.
What he really doesn't get is that this incredibly suspect ballistic evidence is as much a headache for me as it is for him!
The theory I'm proposing doesn't NEED this corrupt ballistic evidence. I'd much prefer it if these four men all identified CE399 as the bullet that was found at Parkland. I'd prefer it if Tomlinson was asked about it and ID'd the bullet when he was giving his testimony before the Sham.
The conspiracy theory I'm proposing is as simple as possible so all of this is a massive obstacle.
However, the difference between me and little Tommy is that I refuse to hide from this evidence.
I don't have the type of mindset that allows me to ignore such overwhelming evidence.
Even if it hurts my own theory I can't ignore it and find it cowardly to do so.
Like all Nutters, little Tommy likes others to do his thinking for him.
So, I'd like to put forward a theory that the FBI were staggeringly incompetent rather than corrupt.
There are two very large problems regarding the ballistic evidence:
1] CE399 magically appearing in the chain of custody with Elmer Todd
2] The bullet or large bullet fragment that fell off JBC's gurney as he was transferred onto the examining table which then magically transformed into the four small metal flakes known as Q9
JBC remembered the bullet (fragment) was picked up by a nurse. Henry Wade remembered the nurse coming to him with it and telling her to give it to a police officer. Bob Nolan remembers the nurse giving it to him. Nolan then left it on Fritz's desk but at some point it magically turned into Q9, four small metal flakes taken out of JBC's wrist injury.
What if the bullet that fell off JBC's gurney was CE399?
The bullet found by Tomlinson had nothing to do with the assassination, it was a completely different bullet, but at the FBI lab in Washington there was some kind of massive mix up and the bullet that fell from JBC's gurney was accidentally (or intentionally) swapped with the dud found by Tomlinson.
This would offer some kind of resolution for these two insurmountable ballistic issues.
On the other hand, Hoover ordered that Oswald was the lone assassin before the investigation had barely begun and that all evidence was going to show that, no matter what.
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Poor old Tommy just isn't getting it.
Like all true Nutters he believes his theory is a fact. He simply can't deal with any of the evidence that undermines his shaky belief system, so he pretends it doesn't exist.
REPLY#146 of "The Warren Commission Sham" thread is a litany of questions and issues that brave little Tommy has ducked including this:
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson,the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
There is zero evidence that CE399 was the bullet found at Parkland and an overwhelming amount of evidence that it wasn't the bullet.
Like all good Nutters, Tommy isn't interested in evidence against his theory. He's blind to it and will hold onto his belief that CE399 was the bullet found at Parkland come what may.
He certainly has no intention of trying to deal with any of this in a credible way.
What he really doesn't get is that this incredibly suspect ballistic evidence is as much a headache for me as it is for him!
The theory I'm proposing doesn't NEED this corrupt ballistic evidence. I'd much prefer it if these four men all identified CE399 as the bullet that was found at Parkland. I'd prefer it if Tomlinson was asked about it and ID'd the bullet when he was giving his testimony before the Sham.
The conspiracy theory I'm proposing is as simple as possible so all of this is a massive obstacle.
However, the difference between me and little Tommy is that I refuse to hide from this evidence.
I don't have the type of mindset that allows me to ignore such overwhelming evidence.
Even if it hurts my own theory I can't ignore it and find it cowardly to do so.
Like all Nutters, little Tommy likes others to do his thinking for him.
So, I'd like to put forward a theory that the FBI were staggeringly incompetent rather than corrupt.
There are two very large problems regarding the ballistic evidence:
1] CE399 magically appearing in the chain of custody with Elmer Todd
2] The bullet or large bullet fragment that fell off JBC's gurney as he was transferred onto the examining table which then magically transformed into the four small metal flakes known as Q9
JBC remembered the bullet (fragment) was picked up by a nurse. Henry Wade remembered the nurse coming to him with it and telling her to give it to a police officer. Bob Nolan remembers the nurse giving it to him. Nolan then left it on Fritz's desk but at some point it magically turned into Q9, four small metal flakes taken out of JBC's wrist injury.
What if the bullet that fell off JBC's gurney was CE399?
The bullet found by Tomlinson had nothing to do with the assassination, it was a completely different bullet, but at the FBI lab in Washington there was some kind of massive mix up and the bullet that fell from JBC's gurney was accidentally (or intentionally) swapped with the dud found by Tomlinson.
This would offer some kind of resolution for these two insurmountable ballistic issues.
On the other hand, Hoover ordered that Oswald was the lone assassin before the investigation had barely begun and that all evidence was going to show that, no matter what.
Poor widdle brainwashed-by-KGB-disinformation Danny O'Meara, who can't for the life of him explain how CE-399 was created with such strange deformation, why it was created with such strange deformation, how the evil, evil person who fired it through Oswald's short-rifle came into possession of said short-rifle, and why the evil, evil conspirators included so many innocent people (e.g., Tomlinson, Wright and Johnsen) in the chain of characters who ended up giving CE-399 to FBI agent Elmer Todd.
Or does poor widdle Danny O'meara think Tomlinson, Wright, and Johnsen were part of the evil, evil conspiracy, too?
-- Little (6' 3" 250 lb.) Tommy
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Poor widdle brainwashed-by-KGB-disinformation Danny O'Meara, who can't for the life of him explain how CE-399 was created with such strange deformation, why it was created with such strange deformation, how the evil, evil person who fired it through Oswald's short-rifle came into possession of said short-rifle, and why the evil, evil conspirators included so many innocent people (e.g., Tomlinson, Wright and Johnsen) in the chain of characters who ended up giving CE-399 to FBI agent Elmer Todd.
Or does poor widdle Danny O'meara think Tomlinson, Wright, and Johnsen were part of the evil, evil conspiracy, too?
-- Little (6' 3" 250 lb.) Tommy
Your not dealing very well with any of the arguments, are you?
You come across as slightly unhinged.
I'm concerned that you need a break.
Your interpretation of what I've posted - that Tomlinson, Wright and Johnsen were involved in a conspiracy - is really odd.
Even for you.
And by the way, when I say "little" Tommy, I'm not describing you physically.
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Your not dealing very well with any of the arguments, are you?
You come across as slightly unhinged.
I'm concerned that you need a break.
Your interpretation of what I've posted - that Tomlinson, Wright and Johnsen were involved in a conspiracy - is really odd.
Even for you.
And by the way, when I say "little" Tommy, I'm not describing you physically.
Dear Widdle Danny O'meara,
Who created the "story" that Tomlinson had found CE-399 and given it to O. P. Wright?
The evil, evil CIA?
The evil, evil DPD?
The evil, evil Secret Service?
The evil, evil FBI?
The evil, evil [fill in the blank]?
I asked you in my previous post why the evil, evil conspirators included innocent people like Tomlinson, Wright and Johnsen in the chain of characters who ended up giving CE-399 to FBI agent Elmer Todd.
Remember?
Here it is again:
Poor widdle brainwashed-by-KGB-disinformation Danny O'Meara, who can't for the life of him explain how CE-399 was created with such strange deformation, why it was created with such strange deformation, how the evil, evil person who fired it through Oswald's short-rifle came into possession of said short-rifle, and why the evil, evil conspirators included so many innocent people (e.g., Tomlinson, Wright and Johnsen) in the chain of characters who ended up giving CE-399 to FBI agent Elmer Todd.
Or does Poor Widdle Danny O'meara think Tomlinson, Wright, and Johnsen wittingly participated in the evil, evil conspiracy, too?
. . . . . .
Still can't answer that question, can you, Poor Widdle Danny O'meara?
All you can do is gaslight.
That's your specialty.
That and paranoiac "thinking."
Poor Widdle Danny O'meara.
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I get the thing about planting a rifle the day before the shooting but I can't see a conspirator thinking that they could take shots incognito in such a building full of workers freely circulating on all floors.
Then how can you see Oswald doing it?
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Then how can you see Oswald doing it?
Iacoletti,
Jim used the word "incognito."
Being "incognito" means wearing a disguise and/or using a false name so as not to be recognized by people who might know you.
Since Oswald had been working in the TSBD for a couple of months, he was recognizable to the other workers and therefore could move around freely without arousing suspicion.
As such, the former sharpshooting Marine and self-described Marxist was perfectly positioned in a seven-story building on the motorcade route. There were even tall stacks of boxes near the window for him to hide behind, and smaller boxes for him to either sit on while waiting for the limo to appear on Houston Street or to stack up at the window to rest his left elbow on while firing his second and third shots.
D'oh
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Jim used the word "incognito."
He said “take shots incognito”.
As such, the former sharpshooting Marine and self-described Marxist was perfectly positioned in a seven-story building on the motorcade route. There were even tall stacks of boxes near the window for him to hide behind, and smaller boxes for him to either sit on while waiting for the limo to appear on Houston Street or to stack up at the window to rest his left elbow on while firing his second and third shots.
Cool story, bro.
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He said “take shots incognito”.
Cool story, bro.
Iacoletti,
You don't think Oswald had been rated a "sharpshooter" in the Marine Corps?
You don't think he described himself as a "Marxist" to Snyder in Moscow and to the radio guy in Dallas?
You don't think he worked in a seven-story building on the motorcade route?
You don't think he'd been working in that building for a couple of months?
You don't think there were tall stacks of boxes near the "Sniper's Nest" window?
You don't think his prints were found on two of four the smaller boxes that were found in the "Sniper's Nest," one of them ideally positioned for him to sit on while waiting for the limo to appear on Houston Street?
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Then how can you see Oswald doing it?
I can't really, unless he did manage to quickly sneak upstairs and realised that he had a chance when the 6th floor suddenly cleared.
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I can't really, unless he did manage to quickly sneak upstairs and realised that he had a chance when the 6th floor suddenly cleared.
By entering the TSBD through the rear door, he was near the stairs. Walking up to the sixth floor, he would only be briefly visible on 2,3,4, and 5, and while walking to his Sniper's Nest on the 6th. He could have hidden his short-rifle in or near his Sniper's Nest, and later sat down on his "sitting box," looked out the window, and told anyone who asked him what in the heck he was doing, "I'm just sittin' here a-waitin' for the parade."
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By entering the TSBD through the rear door, he was near the stairs. Walking up to the sixth floor, he would only be briefly visible on 2,3,4, and 5, and while walking to his Sniper's Nest on the 6th. He could have hidden his short-rifle in or near his Sniper's Nest, and later sat down on his "sitting box," looked out the window, and told anyone who asked him what in the heck he was doing, "I'm just sittin' here a-waitin' for the parade."
Of course but he would have been giving himself a hell of a long-shot to pull it off. There was no guarantee the floor would be clear of fellow workers. Perhaps he couldn't believe his luck when he realised that there was nobody on the floor except himself. Who knows, if it least one person was there, he wouldn't have taken the shots at all.
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I can't really, unless he did manage to quickly sneak upstairs and realised that he had a chance when the 6th floor suddenly cleared.
He chose a floor where a floor laying crew was working and where boxes were piled high to one side. He created a nest of sorts with the boxes. He did fire with three TSBD employees directly under the window from which he was firing. I don't think he "quickly snuck upstairs" or "realized he had a chance." I think he was in place with sufficient time to carry out his act. I don't think it would have made the slightest difference to him if there had been employees on the 6th floor. Once the decision was made, he was going to shoot JFK, period. What he would have done after the shooting if there had been employees up there - shoot them (I doubt it), shot himself (unlikely), left the floor brandishing the gun (possible) - is anyone's guess. He may have carried the rifle as far as he did precisely because he wasn't sure he was alone. Nothing about the circumstances suggests to me the mindset of "I'll shoot JFK only if the coast is clear and I have a realistic chance of walking out of here alive."
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Of course but he would have been giving himself a hell of a long-shot to pull it off. There was no guarantee the floor would be clear of fellow workers. Perhaps he couldn't believe his look when he realised that there was nobody on the floor except himself. Who knows, if it least one person was there, he wouldn't have taken the shots at all.
Some manager-types had been showing off their rifles inside the TSBD a day or two earlier. If questioned in the morning why he'd brought his short-rifle to work, he could say, "To show it to the guys at lunchtime"
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He may have carried the rifle as far as he did precisely because he wasn't sure he was alone.
Good point!
Some manager-types had been showing off their rifles inside the TSBD a day or two earlier. If questioned in the morning why he'd brought his short-rifle to work, he could say, "To show it to the guys at lunchtime"
Yes, that's what I always thought.
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He chose a floor where a floor laying crew was working and where boxes were piled high to one side. He created a nest of sorts with the boxes. He did fire with three TSBD employees directly under the window from which he was firing. I don't think he "quickly snuck upstairs" or "realized he had a chance." I think he was in place with sufficient time to carry out his act. I don't think it would have made the slightest difference to him if there had been employees on the 6th floor. Once the decision was made, he was going to shoot JFK, period. What he would have done after the shooting if there had been employees up there - shoot them (I doubt it), shot himself (unlikely), left the floor brandishing the gun (possible) - is anyone's guess. He may have carried the rifle as far as he did precisely because he wasn't sure he was alone. Nothing about the circumstances suggests to me the mindset of "I'll shoot JFK only if the coast is clear and I have a realistic chance of walking out of here alive."
What he would have done after the shooting if there had been employees up there - shoot them (I doubt it), shot himself (unlikely), left the floor brandishing the gun (possible) - is anyone's guess.
This is an interesting conundrum, I've speculated in the past that Oswald crossed the floor with his rifle just in case he came across another employee who was stopping his flight from the scene of the crime, but there is still questions and further speculation.
• Why didn't Oswald just leave the rifle in the sniper's nest because if he did come across another employee on this floor he could have kept going and just mumbled something like he did with Reid?
• Did Oswald leave the rifle at the opposite side of the floor to delay it's discovery and hence give him more time but would an extra hour or so make a real difference because the shells in the sniper's nest were already a bit of a give away?
• Why didn't Oswald take the rifle down the stairs but I guess if he was discovered by the cops this would mean instant death.
To me the first option seems to make the most sense, just get the heck out of there and leave any immediate connection far behind?
JohnM
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This is an interesting conundrum, I've speculated in the past that Oswald crossed the floor with his rifle just in case he came across another employee who was stopping his flight from the scene of the crime, but there is still questions and further speculation.
• Why didn't Oswald just leave the rifle in the sniper's nest because if he did come across another employee on this floor he could have kept going and just mumbled something like he did with Reid?
• Did Oswald leave the rifle at the opposite side of the floor to delay it's discovery and hence give him more time but would an extra hour or so make a real difference because the shells in the sniper's nest were already a bit of a give away?
• Why didn't Oswald take the rifle down the stairs but I guess if he was discovered by the cops this would mean instant death.
To me the first option seems to make the most sense, just get the heck out of there and leave any immediate connection far behind?
JohnM
Maybe his original plan was to pick up the shells and hide his short-rifle, but he didn't see the shell from his first (i.e., while standing) shot that ended up far to his right, so he decided to leave the two under the window behind, too, and went ahead and hid his short-rifle, anyway.
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This is an interesting conundrum, I've speculated in the past that Oswald crossed the floor with his rifle just in case he came across another employee who was stopping his flight from the scene of the crime, but there is still questions and further speculation.
• Why didn't Oswald just leave the rifle in the sniper's nest because if he did come across another employee on this floor he could have kept going and just mumbled something like he did with Reid?
• Did Oswald leave the rifle at the opposite side of the floor to delay it's discovery and hence give him more time but would an extra hour or so make a real difference because the shells in the sniper's nest were already a bit of a give away?
• Why didn't Oswald take the rifle down the stairs but I guess if he was discovered by the cops this would mean instant death.
To me the first option seems to make the most sense, just get the heck out of there and leave any immediate connection far behind?
JohnM
An LNer could argue that Oswald carried the rifle as far as he did because he was wiping it clean of fingerprints as he was moving. He finished as he reached the top of the stairs and just placed the rifle in the most convenient spot.
Personally, I think Oswald was heading for the border as soon as he left the TSBD building so I don't see why he would need to wipe the rifle clean. The fact he'd 'fled the scene' was enough to nail him as prime suspect.
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This is an interesting conundrum, I've speculated in the past that Oswald crossed the floor with his rifle just in case he came across another employee who was stopping his flight from the scene of the crime, but there is still questions and further speculation.
• Why didn't Oswald just leave the rifle in the sniper's nest because if he did come across another employee on this floor he could have kept going and just mumbled something like he did with Reid?
• Did Oswald leave the rifle at the opposite side of the floor to delay it's discovery and hence give him more time but would an extra hour or so make a real difference because the shells in the sniper's nest were already a bit of a give away?
• Why didn't Oswald take the rifle down the stairs but I guess if he was discovered by the cops this would mean instant death.
To me the first option seems to make the most sense, just get the heck out of there and leave any immediate connection far behind?
JohnM
Perhaps an even more interesting conundrum exists for CTers: Why didn't the evil conspirators who planted the rifle in the TSBD leave it in plain view in the sniper's nest? Why did they leave a problematical dented shell? Once again, diabolical geniuses at steps 1-3-5-7-9, bungling idiots (fortunately for CTers!) at steps 2-4-6-8-10.
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Perhaps an even more interesting conundrum exists for CTers: Why didn't the evil conspirators who planted the rifle in the TSBD leave it in plain view in the sniper's nest? Why did they leave a problematical dented shell? Once again, diabolical geniuses at steps 1-3-5-7-9, bungling idiots (fortunately for CTers!) at steps 2-4-6-8-10.
Some very good points.
If I was a conspirator I would have half a dozen people "positively identify" Oswald in the Sniper's nest, then it's game over and we wouldn't be here!
Well, actually, come to think about it, there would be CT's like Iacoletti and Weidmann who would screech "unfair line-ups", Oswald's rifle "LOL", etc etc.
So applying this logic to the real World, I guess even if Oswald was positively identified by half of Dallas while Oswald was pulling the trigger, it wouldn't mean much. -sigh-
JohnM
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This is an interesting conundrum, I've speculated in the past that Oswald crossed the floor with his rifle just in case he came across another employee who was stopping his flight from the scene of the crime, but there is still questions and further speculation.
• Why didn't Oswald just leave the rifle in the sniper's nest because if he did come across another employee on this floor he could have kept going and just mumbled something like he did with Reid?
• Did Oswald leave the rifle at the opposite side of the floor to delay it's discovery and hence give him more time but would an extra hour or so make a real difference because the shells in the sniper's nest were already a bit of a give away?
• Why didn't Oswald take the rifle down the stairs but I guess if he was discovered by the cops this would mean instant death.
To me the first option seems to make the most sense, just get the heck out of there and leave any immediate connection far behind?
JohnM
I agree that Oswald carries his rifle until he is near the stairway in case he needs to use it to escape the floor. For all he knows, maybe someone else was on the floor and heard the shots. Once he is on his way down the stairs, he is just another employee in the building. My guess is that he carried around the clipboard to linger on the floor before the assassination to make it look as though he had a job-related reason to be there. He puts the clipboard down when retrieving his rifle. Which means the rifle was likely hid in a similar place before and after the assassination. Oswald knows there is no getting away with this crime. Hiding the rifle just buys him a little time. This is where CTers ask why he tried to escape if he knew that the police were going to capture or kill him. I can only say that he had nothing to lose by playing out his hand. Almost every criminal does so no matter how hopeless the situation. Oswald was likely surprised he got out of the building. If he had any plan, it is to head toward the border on a bus. He is familiar with that drill. It's not impossible that he could have done so given several hours head start. Encountering Tippit was fatal. After that, Oswald is just moving in the direction of least resistance. Entering the movie theatre would have been a good move if he had bought a ticket and not drawn the attention of bystanders.
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At the very least, Oswald’s weird behavior at Brewers store ie: just stopping inside the door but not going to look at merchandise, is the 1st indication that Oswald was fearing to be seen by police cars.
Then Oswald going past the ticket booth without stopping to look at the police cars going back and forth as Julia Postal and other people were doing, is further reason to believe Oswald was fearing being seen by police cars, and wanted to hide asap.
Oswald was not wearing a jacket when seen by Brewer at approx 1:30pm, nor when Oswald was seen by Brewer going past the ticket booth as Brewer followed Oswald.
Add the witness Markam at the Tippit scene pointing out Oswald as the man she saw shooting Tippit ( she saw his face close up) it gets a little difficult to counter the scenario that Oswald shot Tippit while wearing a jacket, then fled the scene , and ditched the jacket.
The only CT alternative I ever read on this forum to attempt to explain Oswald in front of Brewers store not wearing a jacket , was by Alan Ford.
The basic scenario was that Oswald had never gone to McWatters bus, and instead he had gone straight to Whaleys Taxi , entering it at about 12:40. That allowed Oswald to have entered his boarding house as early as 12:52.
Oswald changed from his reddish brown shirt to his other brown shirt with the hole in the sleeve and put on his blue jacket. He exited the boarding house about 4 minutes later at 12:56.
Oswald then walked to the Texas theater arriving there at 12:14. He bought a ticket and went in to the concession stand and bought popcorn from Butch Burroughs at 12:15. Oswald then moved around to several different seats, sitting in one by Jack Davis at about 1:20 possibly ( Davis not exactly certain of the time but estimated 1:20)
Oswald then took off his blue jacket, leaving it in the seat, and exited the theater to walk over to Brewers store to look at some shoes since the movie was not going to start for another 15 minutes. Oswald then returned to the theatre about 1:35, not stopping by the ticket booth because he had already paid for a ticket earlier.
The rest of this Alan Ford CT scenario gets even more improbable with the explanation for the revolver in McDonalds hands and how that revolver was linked to bullets and shells and how it was all planted after the fact.And the light gray jacket was taken from Oswald’s room and planted while his blue jacket which was left in the theater, moved to the Domino room of TSBD a month later ( for some reason?)
It’s about as bizarre a CT theory as Fords
“Oswald out front burning a flag by the mail box”scenario and Baker originally running towards the mailbox until he changed his mind and went up the TSBD steps. 🙄
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He chose a floor where a floor laying crew was working and where boxes were piled high to one side. He created a nest of sorts with the boxes. He did fire with three TSBD employees directly under the window from which he was firing. I don't think he "quickly snuck upstairs" or "realized he had a chance." I think he was in place with sufficient time to carry out his act. I don't think it would have made the slightest difference to him if there had been employees on the 6th floor. Once the decision was made, he was going to shoot JFK, period. What he would have done after the shooting if there had been employees up there - shoot them (I doubt it), shot himself (unlikely), left the floor brandishing the gun (possible) - is anyone's guess. He may have carried the rifle as far as he did precisely because he wasn't sure he was alone. Nothing about the circumstances suggests to me the mindset of "I'll shoot JFK only if the coast is clear and I have a realistic chance of walking out of here alive."
An even cooler story than Graves'! You all are very imaginative.
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Perhaps an even more interesting conundrum exists for CTers: Why didn't the evil conspirators who planted the rifle in the TSBD leave it in plain view in the sniper's nest? Why did they leave a problematical dented shell? Once again, diabolical geniuses at steps 1-3-5-7-9, bungling idiots (fortunately for CTers!) at steps 2-4-6-8-10.
Trying to have it both ways, take 9999999.
If the evidence were solid, Oswald did it.
If the evidence is weak, contradictory, and problematical, Oswald did it.
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If the evidence is weak, contradictory, and problematical, Oswald did it. (sarcasm)
The evidence against the former sharpshooting Marine and self-described Marxist, Lee Harvey Oswald, may seem contradictory and problematical at times, Iacoletti, but how is it weak?
In lieu of a more rational "theory," i.e., one that doesn't require the witting participation of lots of evil, evil bad guys and really, really bad gals, yeah, Oswald did it.
What rational theory have you come up with so far, Iacoletti?
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If I was a conspirator I would have half a dozen people "positively identify" Oswald in the Sniper's nest, then it's game over and we wouldn't be here!
Silly argument, and yet another lame attempt to have it both ways.
If half a dozen people positively identified Oswald in the Sniper's nest, would you then believe in a conspiracy?
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The evidence against the former sharpshooting Marine and self-described Marxist, Lee Harvey Oswald, may seem contradictory and problematical at times, Iacoletti, but how is it weak?
Because there is no direct evidence. It's mostly speculation with a few unsubstantiated claims about the evidence.
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Because there is no direct evidence. It's mostly speculation with a few unsubstantiated claims about the evidence.
Iacoletti,
Given the layout of the TSBD, the fact that the motorcade route incorporated a near-hairpin-turn virtually in front of it, and the fact that the Secret Service follow-up car had just completed its turn onto Elm Street when the first (missing-everything) shot rang out (half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133), etc, what kind of direct evidence would you expect to find if, indeed, the assassin had fired all three shots at JFK from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest?
Adam's and Styles' encountering him or her on the way down the stairs?
Truly's and Baker's encountering him or her on their way up the stairs?
Anything else?
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Silly argument, and yet another lame attempt to have it both ways.
If half a dozen people positively identified Oswald in the Sniper's nest, would you then believe in a conspiracy?
As usual you miss the point, the fact that your conspirators couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery is virtually conclusive evidence that Oswald all by himself decided to take his rifle to work and assassinate the President.
JohnM
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As usual you miss the point, the fact that your conspirators couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery is virtually conclusive evidence that Oswald all by himself decided to take his rifle to work and assassinate the President.
I don't have any "conspirators". But nice strawman.
"Virtually conclusive". LOL.
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I don't have any "conspirators" [in the JFKA].
Given the fact that you think (sic) Oswald was innocent, why don't you "have" any conspirators?
Because so much of the direct and circumstantial evidence points to Oswald, and because you realize that to overtly claim it was a conspiracy (in which Oswald was or was not involved) would require your implausibly asserting that oodles and gobs of evil, evil bad guys and/or really, really bad gals planned the assassination, performed the "patsy-ing" (see above), done the shooting, and wittingly participated in the creating of the all-important cover up?
Just admit it, Abt I mean Iacoletti.