JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: William Batts on February 13, 2025, 07:30:10 PM
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Does deceleration of the limousine, moments before & during the fatal headshot, disprove the so called "Jet Effect" & explains why the President & everyone else in the vehicle moved slightly forward? In this video by Gil Jesus, between frames 312 & 313 specifically, we can see this taking place. Thoughts?
Also this debunking of Lattimer and Alvarez -
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As usual Gil Jesus is completely wrong, Kennedy's head(as opposed to all the other objects in the Limo), when shot from behind definitely is propelled down and away from Oswald's rifle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpB5sN/tink-zps2d137851.gif)
This high contrast image of Zapruder frame 313 shows a clear expulsion of matter out the front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk8YdhJx/itek1976zap313highcontr.jpg)
In fact the back of head authenticated autopsy photos show no massive blowout but do show a bullet entrance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FR7XqJmv/JFKBOHlatest-700-1.gif)
I personably believe that a number of factors were inducive in the back and to the left motion;
1. Kennedys back brace prevented Kennedy from leaning forward.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxWtvJGz/kennedybrace.webp)
2. The easily replicated Jet Effect.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
3. The neurologic reaction.
JohnM
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When we blow up a balloon but don't tie it off and let go, the balloon flies about all over the place - that is the Jet Effect.
To imply that's how JFK's head acted when he was shot is, by far, the most excruciatingly embarrassing proposal made in all of the literature on the JFK assassination.
And that is really saying something.
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When we blow up a balloon but don't tie it off and let go, the balloon flies about all over the place - that is the Jet Effect.
To imply that's how JFK's head acted when he was shot is, by far, the most excruciatingly embarrassing proposal made in all of the literature on the JFK assassination.
And that is really saying something.
Thanks Dan, your valuable layman input and interesting analogy is noted and appreciated but you do realize that the Jet Effect was endorsed by Professor Luiz Alvarez who won the Nobel Prize in Physics, so sorry old chum but a Full House will always beat a pair of deuces.
JohnM
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Thanks Dan, your valuable layman input and interesting analogy is noted and appreciated but you do realize that the Jet Effect was endorsed by Professor Luiz Alvarez who won the Nobel Prize in Physics, so sorry old chum but a Full House will always beat a pair of deuces.
JohnM
Is the conspiracy argument or response that *nothing* would happen to the head as this skull material/matter explodes out the top/right of the head? No recoil? Nothing? We can argue how much and that Alvarez's explanation is an overreach.
The physicist Ken Rahn explains the theory this way. As the bullet passes through the brain
"The pressure builds up isotropically (equally in all directions) inside the head, because the pressure is no longer linked directly to the movement of the bullet. Thus it is not usually possible to predict which part of the head will give way first, other than to note that the weakest parts of the head will generally be the front (the vicinity of the eye sockets) and wherever the bullet left the head. The latter effect is caused by the bullet blasting a larger hole where it leaves than where it enters (because by the time it leaves, the bullet is tumbling and so presents a greater cross-section to the point of exit than to the point of entrance). In the special case where the head is hit from behind, both the exit hole and the weakest parts of the skull will lie at the front of the skull, and it can be reasonably expected that the bulk of the fragments will be expelled frontward.
And most important: "This second phase of the collision imparts a second movement to the head. If fragments are ejected in a preferential direction, they will cause the head to recoil in the opposite direction."
Why won't this recoil happen?
The rest here: https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/Physics_of_head_shot/4-Wound_ballistics.html
And here:
https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Frontal_shot(s)/Tobias_frontal_shots/Jet_effect.html
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Thanks Dan, your valuable layman input and interesting analogy is noted and appreciated but you do realize that the Jet Effect was endorsed by Professor Luiz Alvarez who won the Nobel Prize in Physics, so sorry old chum but a Full House will always beat a pair of deuces.
JohnM
:D
Didn't realise you were some kind of physics expert, John.
I didn't provide an analogy.
I described exactly what the Jet Effect is.
Release the balloon, watch it fly about - its movement is a result of the Jet Effect.
That is what Nobel Prize winner Alvarez is proposing - a JET of brain matter exiting JFK's head drove it backwards in exactly the same way a JET of air escaping a balloon causes it to fly around.
The balloon is not an analogy.
Many are willing to swallow it down because Alvarez won the Nobel prize.
Not because they've thought about it. Not because they've weighed up the pros and cons.
It's very similar to the way all LNers swallow down the predetermined narrative of the Warren Commission like little birds in the nest when a parent shows up with food (that is an analogy, by the way).
They don't have to think about it - their thinking has been done for them. Their opinions have been provided.
Maybe it takes a layman to point out that the Emperor isn't actually wearing any clothes.
Anyone can see that.
Unless they are blinded by the Emperor's shiny prizes.
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Is the conspiracy argument or response that *nothing* would happen to the head as this skull material/matter explodes out the top/right of the head? No recoil? Nothing? We can argue how much and that Alvarez's explanation is an overreach.
The physicist Ken Rahn explains the theory this way. As the bullet passes through the brain
"The pressure builds up isotropically (equally in all directions) inside the head, because the pressure is no longer linked directly to the movement of the bullet. Thus it is not usually possible to predict which part of the head will give way first, other than to note that the weakest parts of the head will generally be the front (the vicinity of the eye sockets) and wherever the bullet left the head. The latter effect is caused by the bullet blasting a larger hole where it leaves than where it enters (because by the time it leaves, the bullet is tumbling and so presents a greater cross-section to the point of exit than to the point of entrance). In the special case where the head is hit from behind, both the exit hole and the weakest parts of the skull will lie at the front of the skull, and it can be reasonably expected that the bulk of the fragments will be expelled frontward.
And most important: "This second phase of the collision imparts a second movement to the head. If fragments are ejected in a preferential direction, they will cause the head to recoil in the opposite direction."
Why won't this recoil happen?
The rest here: https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/Physics_of_head_shot/4-Wound_ballistics.html
And here:
https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Frontal_shot(s)/Tobias_frontal_shots/Jet_effect.html
"Is the conspiracy argument or response that *nothing* would happen to the head as this skull material/matter explodes out the top/right of the head? No recoil? Nothing? We can argue how much and that Alvarez's explanation is an overreach."
Any material/matter that has left the head can't cause any kind of recoil.
It is no longer in contact with the head so cannot affect it in any way.
In the example of the balloon I've given, the movement is caused by the continuous flow of air through a relatively small opening.
The balloon is actually a system of air contained within a rubber skin being pressurised by the air outside the balloon. The rubber skin and the air it contains are both elements of the 'balloon system'.
This continuous flow creates a 'column' of air that meets resistance with the air outside the balloon. This force of resistance travels backwards, through the column of air and into the balloon system, causing it to fly in the same direction as the 'backwards' resistance travelling up the column of air into the balloon system (the opposite direction of the flow of air out of the opening)
The second there is a break in the column of air the 'backwards' resistance cannot reach the balloon system and therefore cannot propel it (or cause recoil).
For the Jet Effect to work on JFK's head there would have to be a continuous flow of material/matter exiting the head 'system' through a relatively small opening.
The gigantic wound to the top of JFK's head prevents such a continuous flow. There is no column of material/matter through which the 'backwards' resistance can travel and act on the head system. No Jet Effect.
When a bullet passes through human tissue it often causes an effect called "cavitation" which creates pressure waves within the tissue. I believe this pressure wave was the main factor for the explosive nature of JFK's head wound and in the split second the material/matter was being ejected, and was still connected to the head system, there would have been a negligible amount of recoil.
In z313 we can see what appears to be two "jets" leaving JFK's head, one is very distinct and the other is harder to see. I would argue that these are NOT continuous columns of material/matter and, as such, cannot provide any kind of recoil effect:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq7nRFQY/z313-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the image below I have highlighted the two "jets" with red lines.
The yellow line is a line drawn through the top of JFK's head to show it's orientation (I've eyeballed it but it's pretty close):
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8jdbPtD/z313-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Even if it were the case that these "jets" were continuous, and thus connected to the head system, the main "jet" would be driving JFK's head down and forward, not back and to the left.
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It's amazing what kind of garbage people will invent and rationalize (even Nobel prize winners) in order to maintain their fiction.
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It's amazing what kind of garbage people will invent and rationalize (even Nobel prize winners) in order to maintain their fiction.
Another Brainless Kook who thinks he's smarter than a Nobel Prize winner in physics who actually reproduced his theorization with real world experiments.
But what you and your Keyboard Warrior mates can't handle is that forever more, the Zapruder film shows only Kennedy's head being thrust forward and down and away from Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor. Case Closed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpB5sN/tink-zps2d137851.gif)
JohnM
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Another Brainless Kook who thinks he's smarter than a Nobel Prize winner in physics who actually reproduced his theorization with real world experiments.
But what you and your Keyboard Warrior mates can't handle is that forever more, the Zapruder film shows only Kennedy's head being thrust forward and down and away from Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor. Case Closed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpB5sN/tink-zps2d137851.gif)
JohnM
Are you having a senior moment John?
JFK's initial head movement is forward because he's just been shot in the back of the head.
What's that got to do with the Jet Effect?
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Are you having a senior moment John?
JFK's initial head movement is forward because he's just been shot in the back of the head.
What's that got to do with the Jet Effect?
Are you having a senior moment John?
I'm not a senior but don't let facts get in the way of your delusional accusations.
JFK's initial head movement is forward because he's just been shot in the back of the head.
Yes, exactly.
What's that got to do with the Jet Effect?
What happens after the initial impact on a medically proven one point entry, is essentially worthless in solving the crime.
JohnM
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I'm not a senior but don't let facts get in the way of your delusional accusations.
Yes, exactly.
What happens after the initial impact on a medically proven one point entry, is essentially worthless in solving the crime.
JohnM
"What happens after the initial impact on a medically proven one point entry, is essentially worthless in solving the crime."
Are you sure you're not having a senior moment?
You're not making any sense.
I'll try again, what does it have to do with the Jet Effect?
Please gather your thoughts before coming up with a coherent answer.
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"What happens after the initial impact on a medically proven one point entry, is essentially worthless in solving the crime."
Are you sure you're not having a senior moment?
You're not making any sense.
I'll try again, what does it have to do with the Jet Effect?
Please gather your thoughts before coming up with a coherent answer.
Are you having comprehension problems, if so let me repeat my comment.
What happens after the initial impact on a medically proven one point entry, is essentially worthless in solving the crime.
And I already stated earlier with examples of Real World reproductions of what happened after, that explains why Kennedy went back and to the left.
But let me further clarify, Kennedy was shot from behind, the majority of the internal pressure escaped through the front right side of Kennedy's head and therefore the reaction was in the exact opposite direction of back and to the left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKDcctZ/JFK-Autopsy-Morph-smaller-more-frames.gif)
Now you may theorize that a second undetected bullet which left no damage came from the front right and that is your right, but you'd be wrong.
JohnM
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Are you having comprehension problems, if so let me repeat my comment.
What happens after the initial impact on a medically proven one point entry, is essentially worthless in solving the crime.
Yes John, I am having problems comprehending what you're posting but I don't think that's on me.
I still haven't got a clue what the above comment has to do with the Jet Effect.
I'm not going to ask for you to clarify it again as it's getting nowhere.
What happens after the initial impact is worthless in solving the crime??
If any other forum member can help me understand what this comment has to do with the Jet Effect, please help.
And I already stated earlier with examples of Real World reproductions of what happened after, that explains why Kennedy went back and to the left.
But let me further clarify, Kennedy was shot from behind, the majority of the internal pressure escaped through the front right side of Kennedy's head and therefore the reaction was in the exact opposite direction of back and to the left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKDcctZ/JFK-Autopsy-Morph-smaller-more-frames.gif)
"...the majority of the internal pressure escaped through the front right side of Kennedy's head..."
What evidence do you have for this?
Especially when you are showing an image that clearly demonstrates the pressure escaped through the top of his head.
Now you may theorize that a second undetected bullet which left no damage came from the front right and that is your right, but you'd be wrong.
JohnM
WTF are you on about?
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Yes John, I am having problems comprehending what you're posting but I don't think that's on me.
I still haven't got a clue what the above comment has to do with the Jet Effect.
I'm not going to ask for you to clarify it again as it's getting nowhere.
What happens after the initial impact is worthless in solving the crime??
If any other forum member can help me understand what this comment has to do with the Jet Effect, please help.
"...the majority of the internal pressure escaped through the front right side of Kennedy's head..."
What evidence do you have for this?
Especially when you are showing an image that clearly demonstrates the pressure escaped through the top of his head.
WTF are you on about?
What evidence do you have for this?
Especially when you are showing an image that clearly demonstrates the pressure escaped through the top of his head.
As I said, at the time of the headshot the front right side opens up, hence the exposed bone flap and huge plume of matter all on the front right side(or do you need a pair of glasses?) and according to Newtons law of physics the equal an opposite direction is back and to the left!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWBvwBQX/zap-head-wound.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcnD4Q7J/colour-autopsy-photo-01.jpg)
JohnM
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As I said, at the time of the headshot the front right side opens up, hence the exposed bone flap and huge plume of matter all on the front right side(or do you need a pair of glasses?) and according to Newtons law of physics the equal an opposite direction is back and to the left!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWBvwBQX/zap-head-wound.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcnD4Q7J/colour-autopsy-photo-01.jpg)
JohnM
You posted this in an earlier Reply:
This high contrast image of Zapruder frame 313 shows a clear expulsion of matter out the front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk8YdhJx/itek1976zap313highcontr.jpg)
It 100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
How you see it that way is baffling.
There is a 'halo' of material all around his head, in every direction, and there is an incredibly clear trail of individual pieces of skull/brain matter being blown upwards.
This trail of material is, by far, the most obvious indication of the direction of the "expulsion of matter". This is not up for debate.
Your insistence that this emerges from the front right of the head is clearly incorrect.
In an earlier Reply, where I have completely debunked Alvarez's childish notion of a Jet Effect, I posted this:
In z313 we can see what appears to be two "jets" leaving JFK's head, one is very distinct and the other is harder to see. I would argue that these are NOT continuous columns of material/matter and, as such, cannot provide any kind of recoil effect:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq7nRFQY/z313-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the image below I have highlighted the two "jets" with red lines.
The yellow line is a line drawn through the top of JFK's head to show it's orientation (I've eyeballed it but it's pretty close):
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8jdbPtD/z313-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Even if it were the case that these "jets" were continuous, and thus connected to the head system, the main "jet" would be driving JFK's head down and forward, not back and to the left.
I have no doubt that you will continue to believe there was a continuous flow of material exiting the front right of JFK's head causing a Jet Effect, even when the evidence completely debunks such a silly notion.
However, it is important to understand the mechanics of the head shot.
The first force acting on the head is the bullet striking high up and at the back of JFK's head, pushing it forward.
Unusually, the bullet fragments and these fragments travel forward, through the head. Some cause "cavitation and exit towards the front of the skull where they create the second 'forward' force as they encounter and pass through the inside of the skull.
Cavitation causes a pressure wave in the brain tissue and this pressure blows large pieces of the already shattered skull through the top of the head.
These pieces of skull shred the scalp as they travel upwards.
A massive piece of scalp, torn at the crown of the head, is blasted to the right side of the head by the pressure wave and opens up the right side of the head as if it were on a hinge near the right ear. On the inside of this massive piece of scalp there are a couple of very large pieces of skull. On piece remains attached, as can be seen in the Z-film, the other piece comes loose as is thrown forward as the scalp opens up at tremendous speed.
The opening of this massive hinged piece of scalp/skull causes a halo of blood mist around the head in all directions.
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It 100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
How you see it that way is baffling.
There is a 'halo' of material all around his head, in every direction, and there is an incredibly clear trail of individual pieces of
I never said 100% but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors. The force of expulsion came out on the front right side, therefore Kennedy's reaction was in the opposite direction, back and to the left. It's simple physics even a child could understand
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZDbqV8r/JFK-vector-forces.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
JohnM
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I never said 100% but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors. The force of expulsion came out on the front right side, therefore Kennedy's reaction was in the opposite direction, back and to the left. It's simple physics even a child could understand
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZDbqV8r/JFK-vector-forces.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
JohnM
I never said 100%
There's a misunderstanding here.
I posted that the high contrasted image of the head shot in z313 that you posted "100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
I am over-emphasising that this image does not show matter being expelled from the front. The "100%" is part of that over-emphasis.
You seem to be thinking that I posted that the image does not show the expulsion of 100% of matter out the front.
It just seems like a straight forward misunderstanding.
"...but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors."
Hmm...maybe you can help me out.
In the image below the red lines are the two trails of matter that have been ejected from JFK's head.
We'll imagine that they are continuous columns of matter that are connected to the head (which they clearly aren't) and that way we can consider them to be "jets"
And we'll imagine that they are of equal force (which they clearly aren't) as this will allow us to more easily figure out the position of the resultant vector.
So these two red lines are "vector a" (on the right) and "vector b" (on the right)
The yellow line passes directly through the top of JFK's head an shows the orientation of his head at z313.
The blue line is the resultant vector.
Even in this diagram, with everything in the favour of your theory, we can see that the resultant vector is still to the left of JFK's centre-line.
This means that any "equal and opposite force" acting down this resultant vector would still be pushing JFK's head downwards and forwards.
(https://i.postimg.cc/prbRpt92/z313-4-vector.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
On every single level the "Jet Effect" fails.
Even a child can see that.
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I never said 100%
There's a misunderstanding here.
I posted that the high contrasted image of the head shot in z313 that you posted "100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
I am over-emphasising that this image does not show matter being expelled from the front. The "100%" is part of that over-emphasis.
You seem to be thinking that I posted that the image does not show the expulsion of 100% of matter out the front.
It just seems like a straight forward misunderstanding.
"...but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors."
Hmm...maybe you can help me out.
In the image below the red lines are the two trails of matter that have been ejected from JFK's head.
We'll imagine that they are continuous columns of matter that are connected to the head (which they clearly aren't) and that way we can consider them to be "jets"
And we'll imagine that they are of equal force (which they clearly aren't) as this will allow us to more easily figure out the position of the resultant vector.
So these two red lines are "vector a" (on the right) and "vector b" (on the right)
The yellow line passes directly through the top of JFK's head an shows the orientation of his head at z313.
The blue line is the resultant vector.
Even in this diagram, with everything in the favour of your theory, we can see that the resultant vector is still to the left of JFK's centre-line.
This means that any "equal and opposite force" acting down this resultant vector would still be pushing JFK's head downwards and forwards.
(https://i.postimg.cc/prbRpt92/z313-4-vector.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
On every single level the "Jet Effect" fails.
Even a child can see that.
I'm not sure you realize this but your limited vector lines are misleading because they are only tracing a small bone fragment or two and the Harper fragment that exploded out due to the intercranial pressure, but the giant sized piece of bone on the side of the head was where the majority of the matter was expelled. Oswald was high and behind and the brunt of the expended energy caused by the fragmented bullet was on the front right side, one of the larger pieces which struck the windshield, another was found under the seat and presumably another struck the curb where Tague was standing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44qKPWzt/colour-autopsy-photo-01.jpg)
This rarely seen HD Zapruder image shows the large piece of bone hanging out the frontal right side, the largest force vector that you didn't know existed or at least never traced.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dZLKdhB/z315-closea.jpg)
The Zapruder film frame Z314 shows a huge piece of the Presidents brain moving downwards past Jackie and thus another sizable force vector.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4x7sZ215/z313-z314.gif)
The Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who can only describe what the saw, all show a massive explosion of blood, brain and skull which was visible on the right front side, like I am telling you.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL9hTHbk/dealey-plaza-eyewitness-1st-day-zapruder.gif)
And finally you have an absurd belief that seems to think that a jet effect should be like a single stream or a cartoon, that isn't what Nobel prize winner in Physics, Alvarez was saying and these following GIFS show where the internal pressure explodes out in the direction of the bullet yet this violent expulsion causes the objects in all cases to go backwards towards the shooter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
I hope you have learnt that your Diagram only shows a fraction of the expended energy and unless you have a better well thought out refutation, then I'm done! Thanks for your participation.
JohnM
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I'm not sure you realize this but your limited vector lines are misleading because they are only tracing a small bone fragment or two and the Harper fragment that exploded out due to the intercranial pressure, but the giant sized piece of bone on the side of the head was where the majority of the matter was expelled. Oswald was high and behind and the brunt of the expended energy caused by the fragmented bullet was on the front right side, one of the larger pieces which struck the windshield, another was found under the seat and presumably another struck the curb where Tague was standing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44qKPWzt/colour-autopsy-photo-01.jpg)
This rarely seen HD Zapruder image shows the large piece of bone hanging out the frontal right side, the largest force vector that you didn't know existed or at least never traced.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dZLKdhB/z315-closea.jpg)
The Zapruder film frame Z314 shows a huge piece of the Presidents brain moving downwards past Jackie and thus another sizable force vector.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4x7sZ215/z313-z314.gif)
The Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who can only describe what the saw, all show a massive explosion of blood, brain and skull which was visible on the right front side, like I am telling you.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL9hTHbk/dealey-plaza-eyewitness-1st-day-zapruder.gif)
And finally you have an absurd belief that seems to think that a jet effect should be like a single stream or a cartoon, that isn't what Nobel prize winner in Physics, Alvarez was saying and these following GIFS show where the internal pressure explodes out in the direction of the bullet yet this violent expulsion causes the objects in all cases to go backwards towards the shooter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
I hope you have learnt that your Diagram only shows a fraction of the expended energy and unless you have a better well thought out refutation, then I'm done! Thanks for your participation.
JohnM
Although I'm just a humble layman I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.
So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful. What is the Jet Effect according to Alvarez? I'm lucky that you're such an expert.
Does it explain why in none of the examples of the Jet Effect in action you show over and over again that there is no initial movement away from the shooter as we see in the Z-film?
Have you even noticed that?
PS: I dealt with the bone that can be seen flying into the limo already
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Although I'm just a humble layman I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.
So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful. What is the Jet Effect according to Alvarez? I'm lucky that you're such an expert.
Does it explain why in none of the examples of the Jet Effect in action you show over and over again that there is no initial movement away from the shooter as we see in the Z-film?
Have you even noticed that?
PS: I dealt with the bone that can be seen flying into the limo already
So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful.
In Z313–Z316 (Figure 5) an expulsion of mass (i.e., the “jet”) is observed resulting from an explosion caused in the wake of a high-speed projectile passage. Although the explosion emanates over a range of angles within a roughly conical cloud, the explosion of mass nevertheless is observed to escape from the single large wound on the right front of the President's head (described in the Autopsy Report [3, p. 540] and in Lattimer et al. [12]). Note that this is not a universal occurrence—depending on the firearm, bullet, target, entry and exit locations, etc., different “explosions” can result.8 But in this case a directional expulsion of mass is observed in the Zapruder Film. It is this escape of the explosion from one end of the cavity, but not the other, that creates a directional component to the mass expulsion, and thus a “jet.” In the author's study of the high resolution digital frames, it was noticed that there were particles that maintained their size and shape over adjacent frames, unlike the rest of the material in the cloud. It was subsequently realized that these were in fact solid skull fragments within a cloud of non-solid tissue, and the author has since learned that previous investigators had already ascertained this [52], [12], [7]. But here it is noted that because these solid particles hold together in flight, they can effectively act as tracers, whereby one may estimate the velocity of the ejected mass within the explosion (assuming they travel at the same velocity as the rest of the bulk material).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844017331882
I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.
Yeah no worries Dan, Alvarez and I go way back.
Here following is some simple math to wrap your head around, good luck!
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGmKV9F/Alvarez-for-Dan.jpg)
I'm lucky that you're such an expert.
Yes, indeed you are!
JohnM
-
Although I'm just a humble layman I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.
So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful. What is the Jet Effect according to Alvarez? I'm lucky that you're such an expert.
Does it explain why in none of the examples of the Jet Effect in action you show over and over again that there is no initial movement away from the shooter as we see in the Z-film?
Have you even noticed that?
PS: I dealt with the bone that can be seen flying into the limo already
Alvarez is simply explaining why an exploding exit wound can impart much more momentum to the body in the direction opposite to the direction of ejected matter than the momentum imparted by the bullet in the direction of the bullet.
This can more easily be shown with a soft bullet that flattens on impact and then compresses material inside a container building up pressure inside that is suddenly released explosively when container ruptures. The difficulty is in showing jet effect when using a jacketed bullet.
Chad Zimmerman showed jet effect using his MC firing 6.5 mm jacketed bullet at a turkey to which he had strapped pork ribs on the bullet entry side (left):
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvZWf2Ck/Chad-Zimmerman-Turkey-Shoot-Jeteffect.gif)
-
Although I'm just a humble layman I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.
So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful. What is the Jet Effect according to Alvarez? I'm lucky that you're such an expert.
Does it explain why in none of the examples of the Jet Effect in action you show over and over again that there is no initial movement away from the shooter as we see in the Z-film?
Have you even noticed that?
PS: I dealt with the bone that can be seen flying into the limo already
Hi Dan,
Could you direct me to the bone fragment you mention dealing with? I was the first point this out to the public several years ago. This same fragment can be seen toppling to the floor, after striking either Nellie connaly's back, or bouncing off the top portion of her jump seat, which I also pointed out and Paul Seaton years ago, who then made a GIF of it and posted it on hi Website.
-
Does deceleration of the limousine, moments before & during the fatal headshot, disprove the so called "Jet Effect" & explains why the President & everyone else in the vehicle moved slightly forward? In this video by Gil Jesus, between frames 312 & 313 specifically, we can see this taking place. Thoughts?
Also this debunking of Lattimer and Alvarez -
Gil Haysus doesn't know his head from a melon. The car did not nearly come to a virtual hault. The Zapruder, Nix, Muchmore and Bronson films all prove this. And no one else moved " slightly forward" at the time the fatal shot struck President Kennedy, due to decceleration of the car. The Connally's and Greer and Kellerman were already moving about prior to the fatal shot. This is as bad as Robert Harris' 20-plus years of claiming that "Everyone in the limousine 'ducked' at Z-271" because, according to him, a shot was fired--and that Mrs. Kennedy raised from her seat and started to crawl onto the trunk lid to grab/grabbed head matter-when nothing could be further from the truth. Or, better still, that "Greer shot JFK".
-
Hi Dan,
Could you direct me to the bone fragment you mention dealing with? I was the first point this out to the public several years ago. This same fragment can be seen toppling to the floor, after striking either Nellie connaly's back, or bouncing off the top portion of her jump seat, which I also pointed out and Paul Seaton years ago, who then made a GIF of it and posted it on hi Website.
Hi Steve,
In Reply#16 I explained my take on the dynamics of JFK's head wound which included this:
"A massive piece of scalp, torn at the crown of the head, is blasted to the right side of the head by the pressure wave and opens up the right side of the head as if it were on a hinge near the right ear. On the inside of this massive piece of scalp there are a couple of very large pieces of skull. On piece remains attached, as can be seen in the Z-film, the other piece comes loose as is thrown forward as the scalp opens up at tremendous speed."
John believes that this piece of skull being blown into the limo is something to do with the Jet Effect (Reply#19). Whereas I believe it is thrown from the massive flap of scalp that is blasted down the right side of JFK's head as a result of the explosion of the top of his head.
So, that was you who spotted the piece of skull bone dancing around in the back of the limo?
That was an excellent find as I remember.
It is the same piece of skull John has highlighted in Reply #19
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In Z313–Z316 (Figure 5) an expulsion of mass (i.e., the “jet”) is observed resulting from an explosion caused in the wake of a high-speed projectile passage. Although the explosion emanates over a range of angles within a roughly conical cloud, the explosion of mass nevertheless is observed to escape from the single large wound on the right front of the President's head (described in the Autopsy Report [3, p. 540] and in Lattimer et al. [12]). Note that this is not a universal occurrence—depending on the firearm, bullet, target, entry and exit locations, etc., different “explosions” can result.8 But in this case a directional expulsion of mass is observed in the Zapruder Film. It is this escape of the explosion from one end of the cavity, but not the other, that creates a directional component to the mass expulsion, and thus a “jet.” In the author's study of the high resolution digital frames, it was noticed that there were particles that maintained their size and shape over adjacent frames, unlike the rest of the material in the cloud. It was subsequently realized that these were in fact solid skull fragments within a cloud of non-solid tissue, and the author has since learned that previous investigators had already ascertained this [52], [12], [7]. But here it is noted that because these solid particles hold together in flight, they can effectively act as tracers, whereby one may estimate the velocity of the ejected mass within the explosion (assuming they travel at the same velocity as the rest of the bulk material).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844017331882
In Z313–Z316 (Figure 5) an expulsion of mass (i.e., the “jet”) is observed
There is no "jet" shown in frames z315 or z316
the explosion of mass nevertheless is observed to escape from the single large wound on the right front of the President's head
This is possibly the most important lie and needs to be dealt with as you keep repeating it.
There is no injury to the right front of JFK's head. The injury is clearly to the top of his head. Your famous GIF shows this in graphic detail:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKDcctZ/JFK-Autopsy-Morph-smaller-more-frames.gif)
There is no point in getting into some kind of pantomime "oh yes it is, oh no it isn't" routine.
Anyone can see that the injury extends across the top of the head. The right front of the head is perfectly in tact.
It's not up for discussion but I've not the slightest doubt you will see what you want to see.
The pressure wave blasts through the top of JFK's head as seen below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvghfGDD/Z328-trunk-of-Limo-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
"It was subsequently realized that these were in fact solid skull fragments within a cloud of non-solid tissue, and the author has since learned that previous investigators had already ascertained this [52], [12], [7]. But here it is noted that because these solid particles hold together in flight, they can effectively act as tracers,"
Solid particles that hold together in flight and can be used as tracers?
This is clearly what Alvarez is talking about:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk8YdhJx/itek1976zap313highcontr.jpg)
If you believe he's talking about something else please demonstrate what you think it is.
If this is indeed the "solid particles" he is talking about, I would really like to hear about how these are emanating from the front right of the head.
How can he believe this "jet" is coming from the front right of the head?
Yeah no worries Dan, Alvarez and I go way back.
Here following is some simple math to wrap your head around, good luck!
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGmKV9F/Alvarez-for-Dan.jpg)
Yes, indeed you are!
JohnM
I've read somewhere that in his calculations Alvarez never included the dominant acting force - that of the bullet as it flattened and fragmented against the skull driving JFK's head forward. He never accounted for a piece of the fragment travelling along the skull in a tangential manner imparting even more forward momentum to the head and he never accounted for the second interaction with the skull as the bullet fragments exited, creating even more forward momentum. He completely forgot to include the dominant acting force, the silly Nobel prize winner doing a study funded by the government.
This is what causes JFK's head to shoot forward, as you've so ably demonstrated:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpB5sN/tink-zps2d137851.gif)
But note, in none of the images you've posted showing the Jet Effect in action do we see this initial rapid forward movement.
So, they don't really show us what you would like to believe they do.
They're not really equivalent to what we see in the Z-film:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
It's all a bit of smoke and mirrors really.
But if you want to carry on believing that JFK's head acted like a balloon released then you crack on.
PS: Why does the link you posted take me to a paper by Nicholas Nalli?
-
In Z313–Z316 (Figure 5) an expulsion of mass (i.e., the “jet”) is observed
There is no "jet" shown in frames z315 or z316
the explosion of mass nevertheless is observed to escape from the single large wound on the right front of the President's head
This is possibly the most important lie and needs to be dealt with as you keep repeating it.
There is no injury to the right front of JFK's head. The injury is clearly to the top of his head. Your famous GIF shows this in graphic detail:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKDcctZ/JFK-Autopsy-Morph-smaller-more-frames.gif)
There is no point in getting into some kind of pantomime "oh yes it is, oh no it isn't" routine.
Anyone can see that the injury extends across the top of the head. The right front of the head is perfectly in tact.
It's not up for discussion but I've not the slightest doubt you will see what you want to see.
The pressure wave blasts through the top of JFK's head as seen below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvghfGDD/Z328-trunk-of-Limo-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
"It was subsequently realized that these were in fact solid skull fragments within a cloud of non-solid tissue, and the author has since learned that previous investigators had already ascertained this [52], [12], [7]. But here it is noted that because these solid particles hold together in flight, they can effectively act as tracers,"
Solid particles that hold together in flight and can be used as tracers?
This is clearly what Alvarez is talking about:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk8YdhJx/itek1976zap313highcontr.jpg)
If you believe he's talking about something else please demonstrate what you think it is.
If this is indeed the "solid particles" he is talking about, I would really like to hear about how these are emanating from the front right of the head.
How can he believe this "jet" is coming from the front right of the head?
I've read somewhere that in his calculations Alvarez never included the dominant acting force - that of the bullet as it flattened and fragmented against the skull driving JFK's head forward. He never accounted for a piece of the fragment travelling along the skull in a tangential manner imparting even more forward momentum to the head and he never accounted for the second interaction with the skull as the bullet fragments exited, creating even more forward momentum. He completely forgot to include the dominant acting force, the silly Nobel prize winner doing a study funded by the government.
This is what causes JFK's head to shoot forward, as you've so ably demonstrated:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpB5sN/tink-zps2d137851.gif)
But note, in none of the images you've posted showing the Jet Effect in action do we see this initial rapid forward movement.
So, they don't really show us what you would like to believe they do.
They're not really equivalent to what we see in the Z-film:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
It's all a bit of smoke and mirrors really.
But if you want to carry on believing that JFK's head acted like a balloon released then you crack on.
PS: Why does the link you posted take me to a paper by Nicholas Nalli?
There is no injury to the right front of JFK's head.
You can't be serious, your so wedded to your fantasy that you can't see reality.
The Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who were actually there, all describe the exact same explosion on the right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL9hTHbk/dealey-plaza-eyewitness-1st-day-zapruder.gif)
The Zapruder film shows a giant exposed bone flap on Kennedy's right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dZLKdhB/z315-closea.jpg)
The Autopsy photo shows a huge wound on the right side
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcnD4Q7J/colour-autopsy-photo-01.jpg)
The injury is clearly to the top of his head. Your famous GIF shows this in graphic detail:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKDcctZ/JFK-Autopsy-Morph-smaller-more-frames.gif)
Yes, no one ever denied that there is a wound at the right front part at the top Kennedy's head but as shown above, the wound wraps around to the front right side. Kennedy was not shot from behind and below, he was shot from high and behind therefore the main momentum of the bullet went forward and exited on the front right side as seen by the Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses shown above and the Zapruder film and the autopsy photos.
I really don't believe that this needs to be spelt out.
But note, in none of the images you've posted showing the Jet Effect in action do we see this initial rapid forward movement.
So, they don't really show us what you would like to believe they do.
Huh? We aren't talking about the original impact but the subsequent effect cause by the jet effect.
In closing, you see a couple of bone fragments which exploded forward out the top of the right side and somehow equate that with what you perceive to be the main driver of the jet effect and while these bone fragments would have a vector force, the overwhelmingly main vector force exited the front right side. Alvarez himself says and I agree that there was an "explosion that emanates over a range of angles within a roughly conical cloud, the explosion of mass nevertheless is observed to escape from the single large wound on the right front of the President's head"
Btw since you obviously agree that Kennedy was shot from behind, what do you believe caused Kennedy's back and to the left motion?
JohnM
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You can't be serious, your so wedded to your fantasy that you can't see reality.
The Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who were actually there, all describe the exact same explosion on the right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL9hTHbk/dealey-plaza-eyewitness-1st-day-zapruder.gif)
The Zapruder film shows a giant exposed bone flap on Kennedy's right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dZLKdhB/z315-closea.jpg)
The Autopsy photo shows a huge wound on the right side
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcnD4Q7J/colour-autopsy-photo-01.jpg)
Yes, no one ever denied that there is a wound at the right front part at the top Kennedy's head but as shown above, the wound wraps around to the front right side. Kennedy was not shot from behind and below, he was shot from high and behind therefore the main momentum of the bullet went forward and exited on the front right side as seen by the Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses shown above and the Zapruder film and the autopsy photos.
I really don't believe that this needs to be spelt out.
Huh? We aren't talking about the original impact but the subsequent effect cause by the jet effect.
In closing, you see a couple of bone fragments which exploded forward out the top of the right side and somehow equate that with what you perceive to be the main driver of the jet effect and while these bone fragments would have a vector force, the overwhelmingly main vector force exited the front right side. Alvarez himself says and I agree that there was an "explosion that emanates over a range of angles within a roughly conical cloud, the explosion of mass nevertheless is observed to escape from the single large wound on the right front of the President's head"
Btw since you obviously agree that Kennedy was shot from behind, what do you believe caused Kennedy's back and to the left motion?
JohnM
I suppose I just have to keep explaining it to you over and over again.
When JFK's head exploded we see pieces of skull being blown from the very top of his head, not the front as you and Alvarez (or Nalli) keep insisting. In an earlier Reply you posted this:
This high contrast image of Zapruder frame 313 shows a clear expulsion of matter out the front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk8YdhJx/itek1976zap313highcontr.jpg)
It is your (and Alvarez's) understanding that this image is showing an expulsion of matter "out the front".
It does not.
As I have clearly demonstrated with the graphic below, the expulsion of matter, that you believe is coming "out the front" is actually coming out of the top of JFK's head, AND FROM THE BACK HALF OF HIS HEAD. The yellow line is the center-line of JFK's head:
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8jdbPtD/z313-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You're insistence that this expulsion of matter is "out the front" is ludicrous.
You have to concede that you are completely mistaken about this point.
It is also clear that Alvarez is making exactly the same mistake you are, even though it is patently incorrect.
When the pieces of bone/matter exit the top of JFK's head they rip the scalp at the same place - the top of his head.
The pressure wave, caused by cavitation, explodes through the top of JFK's head and as it does it blows a massive piece of scalp down the right side of his head.
This massive piece of scalp, which still has bone attached to it and can clearly be seen in the Z-film, is still attached to JFK's head near his right ear. This attachment acts as a 'hinge' and, as the right side of JFK's head is blown open, the massive piece of scalp and bone is left hanging downwards. This is what we see in the Z-film.
As the scalp/bone/right side of the head is ripped open there is a massive spray of blood in all directions but particularly to the front. That is the "explosion" witnessed at towards the front of JFK's head.
There is a simple fact that seems to have flummoxed both you and Alvarez - at the moment of impact JFK is looking down. His head is tilted forward.
In the image below the yellow lines give an idea of the orientation of JFK's head at the moment before the bullet impacts. The red line is an approximation of the bullet trajectory agreeing with the damage shown in the autopsy pictures:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMR2L2pQ/z312-good1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You have fooled yourself that the injury to JFK's head extends to the front of his head and hold this picture up as evidence. However, the diamond-shaped cut extending down to JFK's forward is clearly that...a cut. It is clearly some kind of incision.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcnD4Q7J/colour-autopsy-photo-01.jpg)
This same incision is NOT present in your renowned GIF:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKDcctZ/JFK-Autopsy-Morph-smaller-more-frames.gif)
All you need to do is use your eyes to see that this incision is NOT present in the GIF. The extent of the injury is exclusively contained to the top of the head.
Just use your eyes.
Btw since you obviously agree that Kennedy was shot from behind, what do you believe caused Kennedy's back and to the left motion?
Physics.
-
The dangers of sucking up to someone just because they've got a shiny prize:
Chapter 9 covers the involvement of Nobel prize winner Dr. Luis Alvarez, who also assumed he had a PhD in assassination “science.” Alvarez, a blatant Warren Commission apologist, is known for shooting melons, thus trying to create a reverse jet effect to explain the rearward component of JFK’s double head motion. Alvarez is one of many scientists, like Vincent Guinn, in the governmental and academic circles to have used their prestige when approaching the assassination from their individual field of expertise. Thompson recounts a long period of contentious personal communication between he and Alvarez, mainly over Alvarez’s “jiggle analysis” of the Zapruder film and “reproducing” the reverse jet effect. Critics had immediately pounced on Alvarez’s claim that a single frame horizontal blur seen at 313 reflected Zapruder’s reaction to a rifle shot, as a muzzle blast from the TSBD would not have even reached his ears yet. Ironically later in Chapter 14, a same horizontal blur will be viewed as a reaction to a shot from the Grassy Knoll, with a similar lack of success based upon similar principles. Alvarez’s attempts at shooting various objects, plus his publications, are revisited. During the writing of the book, Paul Hoch provided the author with photos and notes from the actual melon shooting sessions, which almost invariably showed objects moving forward in the direction of the bullet as had the Warren Commission tests. Thompson details the intellectual dishonesty and despicable behavior exhibited by this Nobel prize winner. I do not think the author adequately describes the enjoyment he found after obtaining Alvarez’s materials, provided by Hoch, which are now conserved at the Sixth Floor Museum.
Proof that Alvarez faked his results?
D'oh!
-
I've read somewhere that in his calculations Alvarez never included the dominant acting force - that of the bullet as it flattened and fragmented against the skull driving JFK's head forward. He never accounted for a piece of the fragment travelling along the skull in a tangential manner imparting even more forward momentum to the head and he never accounted for the second interaction with the skull as the bullet fragments exited, creating even more forward momentum. He completely forgot to include the dominant acting force, the silly Nobel prize winner doing a study funded by the government.
Alvarez certainly included the forward momentum of the bullet in his analysis. On page 819-820 of his article in Am. J. Phys Vol. 44, No. 9 Sept. 1976 he states:
- When I studied the graph
showing the changing position of the President's head relative
to the moving car's coordinate system, I was finally
convinced that the assassination buffs were right; there had
to be a real explanation of the fact that the President's head
did not fall back, but was driven back by some real
force. - I concluded that the retrograde motion of the President's
head, in response to the rifle bullet shot, is consistent with
the law of conservation of momentum, if one pays attention
to the law of conservation of energy as well, and includes
the momentum of all the material in the problem. The
simplest way to see where I differ from most of the critics
is to note that they treat the problem as though it involved
only two interacting masses: the bullet and the head. My
analysis involves three interacting masses, the bullet, the
jet of brain matter observable in frame 313, and the remaining
part of the head. It will turn out that the jet can
carry forward more momentum than was brought in by the
bullet, and the head recoils backward, as a rocket recoils
when its jet fuel is ejected. - ... As we shall now see, the momentum carried
forward in this way can be much larger than the momentum
brought in by the bullet.
This is what causes JFK's head to shoot forward, as you've so ably demonstrated:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpB5sN/tink-zps2d137851.gif)
But note, in none of the images you've posted showing the Jet Effect in action do we see this initial rapid forward movement.
So, they don't really show us what you would like to believe they do.
They're not really equivalent to what we see in the Z-film:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QChFszkJ/melon-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x85cdP6D/coconut-jet-effect.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjnwhPSP/bottle-jet-effect.gif)
It's all a bit of smoke and mirrors really.
But if you want to carry on believing that JFK's head acted like a balloon released then you crack on.
The forward motion results from the time delay between the bullet impact in the back of the head and the outward ejection of matter from the head.
The rear-and-to-the-left reaction is due to the explosive ejection of blood and brain tissue from the head. But that ejection occurs as the skull opens up which is a finite amount of time after the bullet strikes the back of the skull. So the head goes forward from the bullet momentum imparted to the head before the head opens up and spews matter from the head in a forward-right cone which then imparts rear-left momentum to the head. This explosive ejection then slows, stops and then reverses the forward movement of the head.
The Bell & Howell camera ran at 18.3 frames/sec (55 ms/frame) with an exposure time of 1/40th of a second (25 ms). So the time between the bullet impact and the beginning of exposure of z313 could be as much as 30 ms.
If the moment impact occurred immediately after the end of the exposure of z312 there would be 30 ms for the head to move forward before the beginning of exposure of z313. For the centre of mass of a 5 kg head to move 3 cm in 30 ms. (average speed .03/.03=1 m/s) the head acquired an average momentum of 5kg x 1 m/s =5 kg m/s. We know the momentum of the incoming bullet: pb=mbvb=.01kg x 610 m/sec. = 6.1 kg m/sec or 6.1 N.sec. So if the bullet imparted most of its forward momentum to the head which then erupted sending a jet of matter forward and to the right, that would explain why the head moved forward first.
In the examples of firing at a light plastic membrane milk jug or thin membrane balloon, there is almost no delay for the exit wound to open up to expel matter from the container. So the rearward impulse begins before the target has any time to move forward. It is different with the container is strong, rigid bone that has mass. It takes time for that matter to move away to allow the pressurized brain matter to explode out.
-
Alvarez certainly included the forward momentum of the bullet in his analysis. On page 819-820 of his article in Am. J. Phys Vol. 44, No. 9 Sept. 1976 he states:
- When I studied the graph
showing the changing position of the President's head relative
to the moving car's coordinate system, I was finally
convinced that the assassination buffs were right; there had
to be a real explanation of the fact that the President's head
did not fall back, but was driven back by some real
force. - I concluded that the retrograde motion of the President's
head, in response to the rifle bullet shot, is consistent with
the law of conservation of momentum, if one pays attention
to the law of conservation of energy as well, and includes
the momentum of all the material in the problem. The
simplest way to see where I differ from most of the critics
is to note that they treat the problem as though it involved
only two interacting masses: the bullet and the head. My
analysis involves three interacting masses, the bullet, the
jet of brain matter observable in frame 313, and the remaining
part of the head. It will turn out that the jet can
carry forward more momentum than was brought in by the
bullet, and the head recoils backward, as a rocket recoils
when its jet fuel is ejected. - ... As we shall now see, the momentum carried
forward in this way can be much larger than the momentum
brought in by the bullet.
The forward motion results from the time delay between the bullet impact in the back of the head and the outward ejection of matter from the head.
The rear-and-to-the-left reaction is due to the explosive ejection of blood and brain tissue from the head. But that ejection occurs as the skull opens up which is a finite amount of time after the bullet strikes the back of the skull. So the head goes forward from the bullet momentum imparted to the head before the head opens up and spews matter from the head in a forward-right cone which then imparts rear-left momentum to the head. This explosive ejection then slows, stops and then reverses the forward movement of the head.
The Bell & Howell camera ran at 18.3 frames/sec (55 ms/frame) with an exposure time of 1/40th of a second (25 ms). So the time between the bullet impact and the beginning of exposure of z313 could be as much as 30 ms.
If the moment impact occurred immediately after the end of the exposure of z312 there would be 30 ms for the head to move forward before the beginning of exposure of z313. For the centre of mass of a 5 kg head to move 3 cm in 30 ms. (average speed .03/.03=1 m/s) the head acquired an average momentum of 5kg x 1 m/s =5 kg m/s. We know the momentum of the incoming bullet: pb=mbvb=.01kg x 610 m/sec. = 6.1 kg m/sec or 6.1 N.sec. So if the bullet imparted most of its forward momentum to the head which then erupted sending a jet of matter forward and to the right, that would explain why the head moved forward first.
In the examples of firing at a light plastic membrane milk jug or thin membrane balloon, there is almost no delay for the exit wound to open up to expel matter from the container. So the rearward impulse begins before the target has any time to move forward. It is different with the container is strong, rigid bone that has mass. It takes time for that matter to move away to allow the pressurized brain matter to explode out.
Thank you Andrew, having someone who actually understand physics explain some of these concepts is refreshing, because arguing with Dan like trying to argue with Moon Landing Hoaxers or the Flat Earthers, even though they mean well, their knowledge is minimal and their evaluation of the visual record is frankly embarrassing.
JohnM
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Thank you Andrew, having someone who actually understand physics explain some of these concepts is refreshing, because arguing with Dan like trying to argue with Moon Landing Hoaxers or the Flat Earthers, even though they mean well, their knowledge is minimal and their evaluation of the visual record is frankly embarrassing.
JohnM
"...their evaluation of the visual record is frankly embarrassing."
Let's see whose evaluation of the visual record is embarrassing.
It was you who posted this:
This high contrast image of Zapruder frame 313 shows a clear expulsion of matter out the front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk8YdhJx/itek1976zap313highcontr.jpg)
A child can see that you're wrong.
Your evaluation of this image is genuinely embarrassing.
I don't have the slightest doubt that you will avoid this observation like the plague as it demonstrates your true grasp of the issues.
You can pretend to "understand the physics" all you want but your inability to understand a basic image tells us all we need to know.
Alvarez also believed this matter was being expelled out the front. It makes me cringe that you have simply swallowed this down (as, it seems, has Andrew).
If you can't even understand the basics how trustworthy do you think your assessment of the physics is.
Just for laughs - Andrew, do you think the image above shows matter being expelled out of the front of JFK's head?
Let the BS: begin.
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Just for laughs - Andrew, do you think the image above shows matter being expelled out of the front of JFK's head?.
From the front half of his head? Yes.
From the front surface of the head? No
What matters is the direction of the matter exploding from the head exit wound at the moment it separates from the body. That matter spewed over a wide area that included the inside the car, on either side of the car, on the windshield and over onto the hood of the limo.
The resulting kick from that explosive ejection of that matter will be equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the vector sum of the momenta of all ejected particles at the moment they separated from the body.
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From the front half of his head? Yes.
From the front surface of the head? No
What matters is the direction of the matter exploding from the head exit wound at the moment it separates from the body. That matter spewed over a wide area that included the inside the car, on either side of the car, on the windshield and over onto the hood of the limo.
The resulting kick from that explosive ejection of that matter will be equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the vector sum of the momenta of all ejected particles at the moment they separated from the body.
Form the front surface of the head?
??
??
??
I'm not even going to ask what this means.
So, just to be clear, you're saying the expulsion of matter highlighted below is coming from the front half of JFK's head.
It's a yes/no thing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/htRjwBGL/Alvarezjet.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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Form the front surface of the head?
??
??
??
I'm not even going to ask what this means.
So, just to be clear, you're saying the expulsion of matter highlighted below is coming from the front half of JFK's head.
It's a yes/no thing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/htRjwBGL/Alvarezjet.png) (https://postimages.org/)
That is what I said. But I also said that what matters is the direction of the ejected matter. The point on the head from which it ejected does not affect the direction of the recoil.
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That is what I said. But I also said that what matters is the direction of the ejected matter. The point on the head from which it ejected does not affect the direction of the recoil.
:D :D :D
Of all the truly ridiculous things you've posted in your time on this forum, this is the winner.
It's on the record.
It can't be taken back.
It's great knowing that you're going to double-down on this as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH9MCSJC/z313-2-a.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Do you still stand by your statement that this "jet" of material is coming from the "front half of his head"?
;D
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:D :D :D
Of all the truly ridiculous things you've posted in your time on this forum, this is the winner.
It's on the record.
It can't be taken back.
It's great knowing that you're going to double-down on this as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH9MCSJC/z313-2-a.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Do you still stand by your statement that this "jet" of material is coming from the "front half of his head"?
;D
If you divide the head into a forward and rear section by a line from the ear to ear, it appears to me that the exit wound in the scalp is forward of that line.
I don't know why you think that matters. What matters is the direction that the particles of expelled matter have when they are being forced outward from the head by the pressure built up inside the skull. The recoil momentum imparted to the head/body is the vector sum of the momenta of all those particles of matter but opposite in direction.
If you think that is ridiculous, perhaps you can explain how your understanding of high school physics causes you to reach a different conclusion.
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Does deceleration of the limousine, moments before & during the fatal headshot, disprove the so called "Jet Effect" & explains why the President & everyone else in the vehicle moved slightly forward? In this video by Gil Jesus, between frames 312 & 313 specifically, we can see this taking place. Thoughts?
Also this debunking of Lattimer and Alvarez -
The second video debunks nothing. The first is simply wrong: the apparent relative motion caused by the limo's deceleration is over with by frame z310. Further, if you toggle back and forth between frames 312 and 313, you'll find that JFK's head moves quite a bit relative to his wife's, the Connallys' and the SS agents in the front seat. If the motion was caused by the deceleration of the car, it would have affected all of them about the same.
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If you divide the head into a forward and rear section by a line from the ear to ear, it appears to me that the exit wound in the scalp is forward of that line.
I don't know why you think that matters. What matters is the direction that the particles of expelled matter have when they are being forced outward from the head by the pressure built up inside the skull. The recoil momentum imparted to the head/body is the vector sum of the momenta of all those particles of matter but opposite in direction.
If you think that is ridiculous, perhaps you can explain how your understanding of high school physics causes you to reach a different conclusion.
Aaaahhh...this is such a treat.
Thanks to having dealt with your issues elsewhere I knew you couldn't accept the error of your ways.
I'm just going to savour watching you dig this hole for yourself.
But first I'm going to help you out otherwise we'll get nowhere.
So, let's start off with a basic anatomy lesson.
In fact, this is as basic as it gets.
Below is a picture of JFK's head in profile.
I've eyeballed a centre-line for his head (the yellow line). It doesn't have to be exact, it's just to get a general idea.
To the left I've written the word "BACK".
To the right I've written the word "FRONT".
This is to demonstrate where the front half of his head is and where the back half of his head is.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBT6NQK7/JFKheadbackfront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I want you to have another look at the image below, with the anatomy lesson in mind, and tell me again - do you still think the "jet" is coming from the front half of his head?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH9MCSJC/z313-2-a.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Take your time ;D
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Aaaahhh...this is such a treat.
Thanks to having dealt with your issues elsewhere I knew you couldn't accept the error of your ways.
I'm just going to savour watching you dig this hole for yourself.
But first I'm going to help you out otherwise we'll get nowhere.
So, let's start off with a basic anatomy lesson.
In fact, this is as basic as it gets.
Below is a picture of JFK's head in profile.
I've eyeballed a centre-line for his head (the yellow line). It doesn't have to be exact, it's just to get a general idea.
To the left I've written the word "BACK".
To the right I've written the word "FRONT".
This is to demonstrate where the front half of his head is and where the back half of his head is.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBT6NQK7/JFKheadbackfront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I want you to have another look at the image below, with the anatomy lesson in mind, and tell me again - do you still think the "jet" is coming from the front half of his head?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH9MCSJC/z313-2-a.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Take your time ;D
Your line is arbitrary. The back half of the skull appears to me to be intact. Again, why do you think it matters? Take your time to review your high school physics.
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Your line is arbitrary. The back half of the skull appears to me to be intact. Again, why do you think it matters? Take your time to review your high school physics.
Your line is arbitrary.
My line is arbitrary?? ;D
I assume you're talking about the yellow centre-line in the image below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBT6NQK7/JFKheadbackfront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
You are suggesting that this line is somehow randomly chosen.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
A child can see that the specific purpose of this line is to demonstrate the basic principle of the 'front' and 'back' of the head.
The reason I have been forced to demonstrate such a moronically simple principle is because you are in denial about the picture below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH9MCSJC/z313-2-a.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It is your contention that the image above shows a "jet" of material coming from the front half of JFK's head.
It clearly does not, but such is the extremity of your mentality you will simply keep insisting that it is.
The great thing is that, as you are constantly forgetting, the forum is a written record. Your foolishness is on the record.
I've reproduced the image above but added a centre-line. This line has been eyeballed but, again, it's not that far off and it demonstrates the very simple principle of the 'front' and 'back' of the head as it relates to JFK around the moment of the head shot.
Anything to the left of the centre-line as we look at the picture, is to the back half of the the head.
Anything to the right of the line is to the front half of the head:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhncvyp0/z313centreline.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Again, why do you think it matters?
You, John and a whole host of fools believe that JFK's head acts like a balloon that has air escaping from it and is being blown around Dealey Plaza.
It makes me cringe how embarrassing this theory is.
Like good little LNers you can't see past the AUTHORITY, namely Alvarez's shiny Nobel prize. He must be right because he has lots of complicated mathematics and physics on his side. However, there is a very basic aspect to his stupid theory - the "jet" is coming out of an object and that object will move in the opposite direction to the expulsion of the jet.
In order to determine what direction the object will move in, all we have to do is determine what direction the jet is being expelled.
So, when you ask an unbelievably stupid question like - why do you think it matters - it is because we need able to determine what direction the jet is being expelled otherwise we cannot determine what direction the object will move in as a result of the jet. A child can understand that.
Because I'm generous, I'll give you one last chance to recant your foolishness.
Is the "Jet" below being expelled from the front half of JFK's head?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH9MCSJC/z313-2-a.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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At the moment of impact, Kennedy's head was leaning forward.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zj92FQ1/z312.jpg)
And as for separating Kennedy's head into halves while he was standing bolt upright is not a true reflection of Zapruder frame 312 and we must take into consideration that we are examining the upper portion of the skull itself and as is abundantly clear, whichever way you halve Kennedy's head the back section always appears intact.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdyNJG4x/JFKheadbackfrontb.jpg)
I also wanted to have a close look at the HSCA's high contrast image as a comparison to a very early generational Zapruder frame and due to the HSCA's extreme contrast, the expelled matter along with a light mist has merged and is not an accurate representation of the main exploded matter which is forward of Kennedy's temple.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLgzBFBw/z313-skull-fragment-hsca-high-contrast.gif)
Releasing a balloon and letting the air escape through the opening as the balloon moves away from the exiting air is the jet effect in action but what if we release all the air at once? In the following GIF, the balloon first loses it's outer integrity at the bottom right near the man's left hand and then the remaining larger fragment is propelled violently away in the opposite direction to the top left of frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5y0K14HZ/balloon-pop-opening-slow-motion.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpCsc90q/balloon-pop-slow-motion.gif)
And finally, the Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses all describe this same explosion as seen in Zapruder because this is where the vast majority of matter was seen to escape.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL9hTHbk/dealey-plaza-eyewitness-1st-day-zapruder.gif)
JohnM
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As usual Gil Jesus is completely wrong, Kennedy's head(as opposed to all the other objects in the Limo), when shot from behind definitely is propelled down and away from Oswald's rifle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpB5sN/tink-zps2d137851.gif)
JohnM
Hi John, I have it on good authority that someone just stole that GIF from you. ;D
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Hi John, I have it on good authority that someone just stole that GIF from you. ;D
No problems Tim, I made one myself from inferior Zapruder frames, then I think it was Craig Lamson later made this from much better quality frames, so it's the one I now use. I wonder what happened to Lamson, his attitude was refreshing.
Anyway, it's good to see you!
JohnM