JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Steve M. Galbraith on May 21, 2024, 09:59:07 PM
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The top Cuban counter intelligence officer Fabian Escalante reported in his book "The Cuban Files: The Untold Story of the Plot to Kill Kennedy" that Cuban intelligence investigated the assassination of JFK and specifically the allegations that Lee Oswald visited their Embassy and Consulate in Mexico City two months before the event. In the course of their investigation among other things they traced every person who was working at the Consulate at that time. As a result, they said they found two additional eyewitnesses, in addition to the three previously known (Duran, Azcue and Mirabal), who were at the Consulate and who said they saw Oswald during his visit (note: Azcue said he didn't believe the man was Oswald).
Along with other evidence, the Cuban government concluded that it was indeed Oswald who visited the consulate.
So we have the Cubans saying it was the real Oswald; the Soviets saying it was the real Oswald; and the Americans saying it was the real Oswald. And the conspiracy response to this is? They all lied? Mistaken? Fooled? Or what?
From the Escalanate book:
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11299749881/Keyou9mdw0kotl9/Escalanate%20Oswald%20One.jpg)
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11299749893/Keyvivigl8xjdrw/Escalante%20Oswad%20two.jpg)
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LHO wrote the letter to the Russian Embassy saying he was there. But he lied to the investigators in DPD about it. This was just another one of LHO’s compulsive lies. His brother Robert said he despised LEOs and liked to try to show that he could “outsmart” them. I suspect LHO was just lying to mess with them, or at least to not cooperate with them.
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Everyone accepts that Oswald defected to Russia.
Why not accept he just visited the Cuban embassy in Mexico?
What's the problem?
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It seems obvious that if the person below impersonated Oswald at the Soviet Embassy and Cuban consulate that both Moscow and Havana would have exposed it, would have been telling the world about the act of deception. Screaming it in fact. They wouldn't hold it back. After all they both blamed the CIA for the assassination; why not include this into their allegation?
But like "the dog that didn't bark" was a clue the fact they didn't bark, didn't expose it certainly seems to me evidence - not proof but along with the other information pretty powerful evidence - that it *was* Oswald. Add the fact that both intelligence agencies investigated the incident (Oleg Nechiporenko quotes from the report by the head of the KGB who said it was Oswald) and concluded it was Oswald then what more do we need? We have, then, the Soviet investigation and the above Cuban investigation. Add the American investigation and what more is needed?
What's the other explanation? They were fooled by this person? A four year old can tell you it's not Oswald. And yes I know about the next allegation: "But what about the phone calls??!"
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.0ybWg_4ksi-8vCulKfvt_AAAAA?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain)
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It seems obvious that if the person below impersonated Oswald at the Soviet Embassy and Cuban consulate that both Moscow and Havana would have exposed it, would have been telling the world about the act of deception. Screaming it in fact. They wouldn't hold it back. After all they both blamed the CIA for the assassination; why not include this into their allegation?
But like "the dog that didn't bark" was a clue the fact they didn't bark, didn't expose it certainly seems to me evidence - not proof but along with the other information pretty powerful evidence - that it *was* Oswald. Add the fact that both intelligence agencies investigated the incident (Oleg Nechiporenko quotes from the report by the head of the KGB who said it was Oswald) and concluded it was Oswald then what more do we need? We have, then, the Soviet investigation and the above Cuban investigation. Add the American investigation and what more is needed?
What's the other explanation? They were fooled by this person? A four year old can tell you it's not Oswald. And yes I know about the next allegation: "But what the phone calls??!"
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.0ybWg_4ksi-8vCulKfvt_AAAAA?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain)
The whole "Oswald in Mexico" thing is only significant as a way to color Oswald in the most negative way possible. In no other murder case it would matter where the suspect was weeks prior to the murder. It's only an issue in the Kennedy case and one can only wonder why.
The real question that is never asked is why it is of such importance where Oswald was weeks prior to the assassination when at the same time it's being claimed (by some LN's) that Oswald did not decide to kill Kennedy until 24 to 48 hours before the actual murder.
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Here is Escalante's conclusion - I assume Cuban intelligence too since his was based on their investigation - as to why Oswald went to Mexico City and visited the Cuban consulate there: he/they say Oswald was a CIA operative/agent sent to blame Havana for the assassination. But that's completely illogical since it was the same CIA that disproved all of the allegations about Oswald meeting Cuban agents at a party or receiving money to assassinate JFK.
So, Escalanate has the CIA creating the allegations to blame Havana but then ignores the fact that it was, again, the CIA that exposed them for being just that: rumors. And the reason Oswald went there was - as Marina explained - to defect to Cuba, to leave the hated US. It's typical JFK conspiracy thinking where logic and reason and facts are ignored in service to the theory. I'm not surprised that a Cuban apparatchik like Escalanate would believe it; but why would normal people believe it?
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11320857555/Keypsxh6bs1bx1w/Escalanate%20Oswald%20After%20Account.jpg)
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The "Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City" allegation has been promoted for decades by conspiracy believers - NOT by lone assassin advocates - who say that an Oswald double was sent by the real assassins of JFK, usually it's claimed it was the CIA, to connect Oswald and the assassination to Cuba or the Soviet Union. It was all part of the plan to kill JFK and blame others for some benefit. To justify the removal of Castro, to stop the investigation because it would lead to WWIII, to...well, who knows. They still make the claims today even after all of these revelations indicating it was Oswald and not an impostor.
The claim that this has been a lone assassin issue to use against Oswald is simply wrong from beginning to end. The middle too. It's the conspiracists who have been promoting it. Lone assassin believers have been knocking it down not promoting it.
Here is an entire section at the Mary Ferrell website where the conspiracy authors claim Oswald was impersonated, where it was part of a CIA drug running operation, where Oswald was with CIA sponsored Phiadelphia Quakers (??) and other craziness: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Oswald_in_Mexico_City.html
As for Oswald: This event, his visit, shows that he was willing to completely abandon his pregnant wife and young child, leave them on their own with nothing, defect to a communist country (again) leaving a hated America behind (again), and then behaving like - according to the Cubans and Soviets - an erratic, unstable, paranoid man, a man who said he was being hunted by the US government and that, after pulling out a revolver, saying that if "they don't leave me alone, I'm going to defend myself!"
What does that say about him? To me this is not a well man, he's desperate and angry and unstable. If you think this person was normal, not a danger, then what would it take to prove otherwise?
But again this has been a side argument not a main one: it's been the conspiracists who have obsessed over the Mexico City matter not lone assassin believers.
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LHO wrote the letter to the Russian Embassy saying he was there. But he lied to the investigators in DPD about it. This was just another one of LHO’s compulsive lies. His brother Robert said he despised LEOs and liked to try to show that he could “outsmart” them. I suspect LHO was just lying to mess with them, or at least to not cooperate with them.
Yes, one of the interesting parts of this matter is how he behaved, what he told the Soviets and Cubans, what he planned to do. If the Cubans give him that visa then he's gone, he's off to Havana to build a new life. How do the conspirators frame him then? All of their efforts are gone, he's in Cuba. How would they know he wouldn't be able to get that transit visa?
This is another example of the long list of things the so-called conspirators simply couldn't control, couldn't manage. From where Oswald was at the time of the shooting to this and everything in between the ability of these conspirators was limited. In conspiracy world there simply seems to be no limits to what they could do: fake films and photos that fool experts 60 years later, order people to commit crimes and have them remain silent for the rest of their lives and on and on.
It's been more than half a century and over that time multiple generations of Americans in government and outside have looked into this tragedy. There's no there there. As Robert Oswald said, "Asking questions is good, it's right. But after the tenth time, the twentieth, enough already."
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Everyone accepts that Oswald defected to Russia.
Why not accept he just visited the Cuban embassy in Mexico?
What's the problem?
Not to be unfair, or too unfair, but it's the conspiracy mindset that some people have that simply has to reject everything the Warren Commission or government said. Doesn't matter what, doesn't matter how trivial.
Conspiracy believers can still believe that Oswald was framed, that there was a larger plan behind the assassination. He simply was ordered to go there by the conspirators as part of this grand scheme. That's what Escalante says. He says Oswald was an "intelligence agent" sent to connect/blame Cuba. Fine (I don't believe it). But that requires accepting that it was Oswald and not a double.
But they simply won't accept that fact.
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It’s incredible that Oswald physically visited all these embassies and other places that were under 24-7 surveillance yet no one has ever produced a single photo of him in Mexico City.
The only audio recordings of a person claiming to have been Lee Oswald calling the Soviet embassy was suspected of being an attempt to impersonate Lee.
And another witness, Silvia Odio, claimed Lee visited her home around the time he supposed to be in MC.
The above examples are why we can’t conclusively say that Lee Oswald visited Mexico City in September of 1963…
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It’s incredible that Oswald physically visited all these embassies and other places that were under 24-7 surveillance yet no one has ever produced a single photo of him in Mexico City.
The only audio recordings of a person claiming to have been Lee Oswald calling the Soviet embassy was suspected of being an attempt to impersonate Lee.
And another witness, Silvia Odio, claimed Lee visited her home around the time he supposed to be in MC.
The above examples are why we can’t conclusively say that Lee Oswald visited Mexico City in September of 1963…
What is your explanation for faking Oswald's visit to Mexico City? It couldn't be to implicate Cuba or Russia in the assassination since absolutely no effort was made to make this connection afterward. In fact, CTers often criticize the WC for putting all the blame on Oswald and not pursuing evidence of the involvement of third parties such as Cuba or Russia. How did the conspirators ensure that Oswald was not in the presence of others in this time period who could later confirm that he wasn't in Mexico City? If was Oswald was complicit in his own framing, why not just ask him to go to Mexico City and solve all these problems? Oswald's defection to the USSR was sufficient to deem him a political nut. No such trip to Mexico City was necessary for that purpose. How do the conspirators get the Cubans and Russians to confirm that it was Oswald? What evidence is there of the surveillance capabilities at these embassies that supports the conclusion that the CIA must have a photo of Oswald or his double? Isn't it also possible that the CIA did take such a photo or have audio tapes confirming that it was Oswald, but after his death decided it wasn't worth revealing to the Soviets and Cubans the methods and extent of their surveillance capabilities by releasing that information?
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What is your explanation for faking Oswald's visit to Mexico City? It couldn't be to implicate Cuba or Russia in the assassination since absolutely no effort was made to make this connection afterward.
Two possibilities:
A - To set Oswald up as the fall-guy in advance of JFK's assassination but also implicate Castro.
or
B - To use Oswald's manufactured persona to smear the Fair Play For Cuba Committee. Which would be a conspiracy but not directly related to a plot against Kennedy.
There's documentary evidence of the FBI and CIA's efforts to target the FPCC in the early-60s prior to the Kennedy assassination. His phony FPCC chapter in New Orleans and the bizarre events that followed are consistent with a potential intelligence operation.
In fact, CTers often criticize the WC for putting all the blame on Oswald and not pursuing evidence of the involvement of third parties such as Cuba or Russia. How did the conspirators ensure that Oswald was not in the presence of others in this time period who could later confirm that he wasn't in Mexico City?
The descriptions of Oswald given by some witnesses in Mexico City don't match his actual appearance. And the interpreters who listened to his alleged phone calls to the Soviet embassy doubted that it was his voice.
It's possible that the real Oswald was traveling with potential conspirators when he visited Silvia Odio in Texas around the time he was supposed to be in Mexico City.
So the issue of Lee actually having visited MC remains far from conclusive like most things associated with the Kennedy assassination.
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They simply missed photographing Oswald going into the facilities. People fell asleep, incompetence, failures. As the late investigative journalist Edward Epstein said, "Sometimes the official story is a lie; but sometimes it's the truth."
This is from the HSCA/Lopez report (the compound here is referring to the Cuban Embassy and consulate). And yes, the Lopez report concluded that they "probably" photographed Oswald going into the buildings. Some CIA personnel said they heard there were photos taken or that they remember seeing them. But no photos were found. Why would the CIA hide them *after* the surveillance operation had been revealed? For what purpose?
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11360407532/Key8ghab2f4h44j/coverage%20one%20mexico.JPG)
They didn't have coverage on weekends, the coverage was only during the hours the facilities were open to the public, the manual coverage was, as mentioned above, spotty, the cameras would break down or fail.
Here is what the CIA claimed happened (Oswald first visited the Consulate on September 27).
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11360680105/Keyvwr4o79pa2sf/camera one.JPG)
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11360680124/Key0rnrh9m5ctea/cameras two.JPG)
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Two possibilities:
A - To set Oswald up as the fall-guy in advance of JFK's assassination but also implicate Castro.
or
B - To use Oswald's manufactured persona to smear the Fair Play For Cuba Committee. Which would be a conspiracy but not directly related to a plot against Kennedy.
There's documentary evidence of the FBI and CIA's efforts to target the FPCC in the early-60s prior to the Kennedy assassination. His phony FPCC chapter in New Orleans and the bizarre events that followed are consistent with a potential intelligence operation.
The descriptions of Oswald given by some witnesses in Mexico City don't match his actual appearance. And the interpreters who listened to his alleged phone calls to the Soviet embassy doubted that it was his voice.
It's possible that the real Oswald was traveling with potential conspirators when he visited Silvia Odio in Texas around the time he was supposed to be in Mexico City.
So the issue of Lee actually having visited MC remains far from conclusive like most things associated with the Kennedy assassination.
How does Oswald visiting Mexico City set him up for taking the fall in the JFK assassination? If the intent was to implicate Castro, why was all the blame put on Oswald? CTers criticize the WC and other authorities for not following evidence that might lead to other parties. Here we are supposed to believe that someone spent months or years setting up this crime, assassinating the president of the US, covering up the identity of the real assassin for the purpose of implicating Castro, but then make no effort whatsoever to link the crime to Cuba after going through this incredibly risky undertaking. They just drop the whole thing. I'm not aware of anyone making a pitch to blame Cuba or Castro for the assassination based on Oswald's visit to Mexico City.
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People fell asleep, incompetence, failures.
BS:
By your logic, not only the CIA, but apparently Mexican intel, Cuban intel, and Soviet intel were "asleep" or their cameras were broken. If we're being honest, we know all these embassies monitored everyone who entered and left them and recorded all phone calls.
Either they all were incompetent, or Oswald wasn't there.
Honest question,
Do you believe spies are generally honest people who would never tell a lie?
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The top Cuban counter intelligence officer Fabian Escalante reported in his book "The Cuban Files: The Untold Story of the Plot to Kill Kennedy" that Cuban intelligence investigated the assassination of JFK and specifically the allegations that Lee Oswald visited their Embassy and Consulate in Mexico City two months before the event. In the course of their investigation among other things they traced every person who was working at the Consulate at that time. As a result, they said they found two additional eyewitnesses, in addition to the three previously known (Duran, Azcue and Mirabal), who were at the Consulate and who said they saw Oswald during his visit (note: Azcue said he didn't believe the man was Oswald).
Along with other evidence, the Cuban government concluded that it was indeed Oswald who visited the consulate.
So we have the Cubans saying it was the real Oswald; the Soviets saying it was the real Oswald; and the Americans saying it was the real Oswald. And the conspiracy response to this is? They all lied? Mistaken? Fooled? Or what?
From the Escalanate book:
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11299749881/Keyou9mdw0kotl9/Escalanate%20Oswald%20One.jpg)
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID11299749893/Keyvivigl8xjdrw/Escalante%20Oswad%20two.jpg)
John M. Newman points in his 1995/2008 book, "Oswald and the CIA," that the woman who called the Soviet Consulate on S A T U R D A Y September 28, ostensibly from the Cuban Consulate, wasn't identified as Silvia Duran until "later" by the experienced transcriptionist, and that the "Oswald" with her who spoke to someone in the Soviet Consulate during that same phone call didn't seem to know what real-deal Oswald had done and said there earlier that day.