Hi All,
Does anyone here know of anyone who have taken meaurements of the dimensions of the concrete structures and so forth of Dealey plaza, e.g. pergola, retaining wall, triple underpass, pylons, peristyles, reflecting pool(s), knoll, infield grass, etc. ? I'm in the making of an HO (1.87) scale replica of the plaza exactly as it was in 1963. Thanks so much. Steve
Here's the Topo Map with the 0.1% tilt correction. It's possible the aspect ratio was unintentionally altered during scanning; many scanners then had mechanical parts that wore or grew sluggish.
(Full-size of download: 4400x3200 pixels)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/8d/75/JPN6s26m_o.png) Now here's a good-resolution aerial or satellite photo (I had to stitch a few images together). I figured you wanted the North Yard and North Tower.
(Full-size of download: 4600x4000 pixels)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d1/53/EUMLP0T6_o.jpg) Finally here's my transparent overlay of the satellite photo onto the Topo Map. You can try your own figures. Here's mine. I tilted the aerial composite 14.4% and enlarged it 187.5%. It's all subjective, unfortunately. This particular overlay matches some of the building street-level bases and is close to the curvature of Elm Street.
(Full-size of download: 7300x6000 pixels)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/96/d0/LbcvxqHU_o.jpg)
My overlay method has the aerial short of the north curb on Main and it means the Topo Map got wrong the location of the pergola and the masonry structures by the pool. I wonder if those structures were surveyed on a different day, or rendered from an aerial, and added in later, inadvertently getting it wrong. If my placement of the aerial photo on the Topo Map is correct, then I would go with where the aerial shows the pergola, bridge and North Tower.
There's a trade off that's appropriate for you working with your own set of figures. It would be nice to get the Topo Map to work but you have to be aware of where it's wrong.
Now if you only wanted a generalized map, then the Cutler Plat would do. In my 3D model, I found that sloping Main (beginning at the west edge of Houston and ending just before the bridge entrance) 3.2° worked. The usual slope is said to be 3°, probably rounded.
The Knott Lab 3D scan of the physical Plaza is the modern way to extract figures and angles. You would need a very robust computer just to open that model. It would take years to clean up the extraneous noise in the scan and reduce the file size for home use. So we're left with the 2D approach.
Jerry,
Can you measure the distance from the retaining wall to the stockade fence? I have a laser measurement we can compare.
If you mean measure on the Topo Map, it didn't come with a scale. I have seen it mentioned that it was 1 to 40 feet. I don't know if it's one foot-to-forty-feet?Jerry, thanks very much for the over-the-top attachments. I thought you probably already established a scale for the Topo map. The uncropped (original?) version indicates a scale of 1”=10ft. I estimate the scale is 10 pixels/foot for the digital copies, based on measuring sidewalks and shelter doorways known to be 6 feet wide. I measured the fence distance from the NS retaining wall parallel to the fence from the Topo map as 31.4'. Laser gave me 9595 mm, or 31.5' (one measurement). So any movement of that fence EW since the Topo (1981) would be only a few inches. One aspect of that Topo map that always bothered me was the, slightly rotated eastward, retaining wall. I never noticed that with the Cutler map. The amazing details found in your linked QOL Phase II plans seem to show the wall without that rotation. But even with the rotation in the Topo map the distance to the fence only varies an inch or two along the length of the wall. Do you know if that QOL document is available with legible measurements?
The full un-cropped map scan is here: Link (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/miscellanea/maps) "Topo Map Rev.1981 (As Provided) 6112x3758 PNG"
The width of Elm Street is said to 40 feet ("The width of each concrete roadway through the Plaza is 40 feet." --WCR), which may be a rounded figure. On the Topo Map scan, the width of Elm Street is about 4 1/8". If the scale was 1 foot to 40 feet, then Elm Street should be a foot wide. The original map would be some 13 feet wide.
I can use the Elm Street width as a 40' scale. What part of the retaining wall to what part of the fence?
Hi James,No problems. I should be sending some work you are looking for of the pergolas soon.
I replied to your Message to me here on the Forum in the "Messages". I didn't know that you had sent me a private message on the 22nd until yesterday. My sincere apologies, sir.
No problems. I should be sending some work you are looking for of the pergolas soon.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/a7/hP4itOOb_o.jpg)
Here's roughly how much the Pergola and stairway up the knoll are off in the Phrase-II Map using one of my aerial overlays to situate those items.
Trying a different rotation and enlargement value (the combinations would reach into the thousands) for the aerial might result in the aerial being a better match to the map. The aerial photo is not perfectly above the Plaza, which may be affecting the comparisons.
Doesn't the Phase-II Map show the E-W section of the fence would extend north of the retaining wall's south end? Willis06 shows the fence not extending as far north as Willis05.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_willis05-06crop.jpg)
The steps don't go north of the retaining wall's south edge. That's why I pointed out that the aerial doesn't show through the foliage the retaining wall's south edge. If we knew that, then we might be able to see if the Phase-II Map wrongly scale either the knoll steps or the retaining wall corner., or both. Or maybe their whole version of the Pergola and steps are not to scale.
Until then, I retained the Phase-II's scaling of the Pergola and the steps. I could see on the aerial where the steps met the sidewalk and that where I relocated the Phase-II Map's steps. Using other areas seen through the foliage, I placed the Phase-II Map's pergola main structure separately.
You should be able to work out why the steps and the retaining wall don't meet up correctly using the Phase-II Map's version of those items as relocated using an aerial photo.
All anyone has to do to find out exactly where the stockade (it's not a "picket") fence was located on November 22, 1963, is go to the 6th floor museum and use the scale model ( made by the FBI for their investigation of the assassination) which is on display there, and you will be able to get the measurements needed. .
So you prefer to believe what J Edgar supplies vs Numerous Images displaying the Picket Fence vs that specific section of retaining wall? The FBI has zero credibility regarding the JFK Assassination. This skepticism is supported by the recorded phone conversation between J Edgar and LBJ. The 2 agreed on the 1 Shooter Scenario right outta the box.
So you prefer to believe what J Edgar supplies vs Numerous Images displaying the Picket Fence vs that specific section of retaining wall? The FBI has zero credibility regarding the JFK Assassination. This skepticism is supported by the recorded phone conversation between J Edgar and LBJ. The 2 agreed on the 1 Shooter Scenario right outta the box.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b6/17/dDjJsWrZ_o.jpg)
I believe that's the retaining wall and the hedgerow that runs in front of it.
I'm going out a limb here, and bet that you haven't mapped any of this out. The photographers location and line-of-sights onto a map.