JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Michael T. Griffith on January 26, 2024, 02:45:24 PM
Title: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on January 26, 2024, 02:45:24 PM
JFK's dramatic forward jolt and arms flinging in Z226-232 is the second-most obvious reaction in the Zapruder film. Beginning at Z226, Kennedy's body is visibly jolted sharply forward, and the position of his hands and elbows--particularly his elbows--changes dramatically as they are flung upward and forward. The force and speed of these movements are quite startling and impossible to miss--they are even more obvious and dramatic when you view the film in slow motion.
However, government panels have consistently ignored this dramatic reaction. Why? One, because the reaction is obviously in response to the impact of a bullet or large fragment striking JFK in the back. Two, because when JFK first reemerges from behind the road sign in Z224-225, he is clearly already reacting to a previous wound as he continues to bring his hands upward and near his throat and has a pained look on his face--while he's doing this, he is suddenly jolted forward and his forearms are flung upward and forward, starting in Z226. Three, the HSCA Photographic Evidence Panel (PEP), to its great credit, admitted (1) that JFK was hit at or before Z190 and (2) that JFK begins to visibly react by right around Z200. In fact, let's read what the PEP said in their report:
Quote
At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus. . . .
. .. it was determined that Kennedy was struck by this bullet at a time corresponding approximately to Zapruder frame 190. (6 HSCA 17, 43)
PEP member Dr. William Hartmann explained that the panel found that Willis slide 5 also indicated that JFK was hit at or shortly before Z190. Willis said he snapped slide 5 in a startle reaction to the sound of a shot. Hartmann noted that slide 5 corresponds to Z202, and that it would have taken at least 12 frames for Willis's neurological system to register and then react to the shockwave and sound of the shot and then for his finger muscles to snap the picture. "So," notes Hartmann, "that is very nice, consistent evidence that something happened, say, at 190 or shortly before 190" (2 HSCA 15).
If one is honest and credible enough to acknowledge the two sets of wound reactions in Z200-225 and in Z226-232, the simple, obvious, self-evident explanation for them is that JFK was hit in the throat a few frames before Z190 and that he was hit in the back a frame or two before Z226. This explains why his waving motion suddenly starts to freeze by no later than Z200, why he starts to rapidly turn his head from right to left while he's freezing his waving motion, why he is reaching for his throat with a pained facial look when he reemerges from behind the road sign, and why he is suddenly knocked forward in Z226.
WC apologists are still, embarrassingly, in denial about JFK's pre-Z207 reaction and about the pre-Z190 hit, but the HSCA PEP acknowledged both. Perhaps the HSCA PEP experts were influenced by the fact that the pre-Z207 reaction had already been discussed in a 1971 article in the prestigious Journal of Forensic Sciences. The article, titled “Photographic Evidence and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy,” was published in the October 1971 edition of the journal and was written by Don Olson and Ralph Turner. Olson was a professor of physics at the University of California, while Turner was a professor of criminal justice at Michigan State University. I quote one short paragraph from their analysis:
Quote
As the President moves and rotates to the left, his right arm is pulled back into the car. While his elbow has been resting outside the car, it comes up noticeably at frame 195. The President’s elbow can be seen to cross the chrome strip on the side of the car at frames 198-199. As President Kennedy disappears from view behind the sign, his right arm seems to be in a particularly unusual position—the clearly visible gray of his suit coat indicating that his right arm and elbow have been raised at least to the level of his chin. (pp. 410-411)
Of course, we learned many years ago that the WC's own experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205 ("Memorandum for the Record: Conference of April 14, 1964, to Determine Which Frames in the Zapruder Movies Show the Impact of the First and Second Bullets," written by WC attorney Melvin Eisenberg, 4/22/64, p. 1).
Needless to say, the pre-Z207 reaction and the Z226-232 reaction destroy any version of the SBT, especially the latest concoction, i.e., the Z224 SBT.
Another key fact about the pre-Z190 hit is that it occurred during the timeframe when the sixth-floor gunman's view of the limousine would have been obstructed the intervening oak tree on the north side of Elm Street. This is one reason that JFK's pre-Z207 reaction generated considerable debate among the HSCA PEP members. Nevertheless, 12 of the 17 PEP members voted to acknowledge the reaction.
And we haven't even mentioned the fact that Jackie clearly starts to notice JFK's reaction before she disappears behind the road sign, and that she is staring intently at him when she reemerges into view in Z222. To all but those who are pathologically committed to defending the SBT, this proves that Jackie noticed something was wrong with JFK before Z207 and long before JFK was jolted forward in Z226.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 04:44:38 PM
Not only isn't the SBT a "silly myth", it's almost certainly a rock-solid FACT. And the following GIF clip, which shows JFK & Connally raising their right arms at the exact same instant, goes a long way toward proving it's a fact:
More SBT Proof: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html
Also....
I wonder what the odds are of the Warren Commission being able to re-create such a nearly perfect SBT demonstration (via CE903, below) and yet NOT have such a demonstration represent the truth of what actually happened? I wouldn't want to take those odds to Vegas if I was an anti-SBT conspiracy believer. And yet I'm supposed to believe the CTers who tell me that two (or probably THREE) different bullets lined themselves up beautifully so that Arlen Specter could later present this impressive "one bullet" exhibit to the world. Talk about incredibly good luck for Mr. Specter & Company! ....
Not only isn't the SBT a "silly myth", it's almost certainly a rock-solid FACT. And the following GIF clip, which shows JFK & Connally raising their right arms at the exact same instant, goes a long way toward proving it's a fact:
This is abject nonsense. Did you even bother to read the OP? JFK starts raising his right arm long before Connally does. JFK's waving motion freezes by no later than Z200 as he starts to bring both hands inward and upward toward his throat. He's in the process of doing this when he disappears from view in Z207. This is long before Connally starts to raise his arm, and this is even longer before Connally's right shoulder is slammed downward in Z238.
I notice you said nothing about JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, the main subject of the OP.
I also notice you said nothing about the fact that the HSCA PEP determined that JFK was hit at or before Z190.
I also notice you said nothing about Jackie's pre-Z207 reaction and her Z222-223 reaction, which undeniably prove that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207. Poof, on that basis alone your absurd Z224 SBT collapses.
Did you miss the news that the HSCA FPP determined that the back wound was below the throat wound, that the bullet struck the back at an upward angle, and that the tunneling inside the wound indicated that the bullet traveled upward after it entered the back? The HSCA FPP noted that "the wound beneath the skin appears to be tunneled from below upward" (7 HSCA 87). HSCA FPP Figure 12 shows the back wound slightly below the throat wound (7 HSCA 100). The upward-trajectory finding confirmed the 1975 finding of Dr. Werner Spitz of the Rockefeller Commission’s medical panel:
-------------------------------------------------------- There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf (https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)) --------------------------------------------------------
I wonder what the odds are of the Warren Commission being able to re-create such a nearly perfect SBT demonstration (via CE903, below) and yet NOT have such a demonstration represent the truth of what actually happened? I wouldn't want to take those odds to Vegas if I was an anti-SBT conspiracy believer. And yet I'm supposed to believe the CTers who tell me that two (or probably THREE) different bullets lined themselves up beautifully so that Arlen Specter could later present this impressive "one bullet" exhibit to the world. Talk about incredibly good luck for Mr. Specter & Company! ....
A "nearly perfect" SBT demonstration, huh?! I guess you didn't notice that Specter has the rod at a level on the back that is far below the stand-in's collar and far below the WC's location for the back wound? The WC's Rydberg drawing has the wound on the neck and above the throat wound (CE 385). I guess you also didn't notice that Specter has the bullet exiting at the bottom of the stand-in's tie knot?
I find your appeal to Specter's demonstration in CE 903 curious, because I've had many WC apologists tell me that his demonstration was wrong because he put the back wound too low. You guys need to get your story straight.
I take it you are unaware of the recent 3D laser analysis of the SBT done by the forensic engineering firm Knott Laboratory, the first analysis of its kind ever done of the SBT? Knott Lab's 3D analysis proves that the SBT is impossible. Here's an article about Knott Lab's historic analysis:
Here's a 24-minute podcast interview with Knott Lab CEO and Principal Engineer Stanley Stoll in which he explains the Knott 3D laser analysis and shows clips based on the digital reconstruction from the 3D laser data:
FYI, the Knott Lab engineers placed the JFK and JBC figures after creating a digital twin of Dealey Plaza and then using AI-assisted photogrammetric analysis of the Zapruder film, photos of the limo, and various other photos to place the figures in the limousine. They made the digital twin of the plaza by doing an exhaustive laser survey of the plaza, collecting millions of data points to enable a digital 3D recreation of the plaza that was an exact duplicate of the plaza in every aspect. After making the digital twin, they used photogrammetric analysis to place the Kennedy and Connally figures in the limousine (as well as to place the limousine in the correct position on Elm Street).
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM
JFK isn't "reacting" at all prior to Z226. The HSCA's "Z190" SBT timeline is total nonsense and totally wrong. President Kennedy's right hand is still being LOWERED between Z224 and 225:
Connally's and Kennedy's right arms are then simultaneously moving upward between 225 and 226. And Connally was struck in his RIGHT wrist during the shooting. Just a coincidence? If so, what's causing this rapid up-then-down movement of the exact same arm/wrist that was wounded by a bullet?
CTers have come up with all kinds of lame-ass excuses to explain away all of the many things we see going on with Governor Connally in Zapruder frames 224 to 230 [GO HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html) to see about a dozen such excuses], but sensible people can easily see through the B.S. and constant denial being exhibited by the conspiracy theorists.
Re: the HSCA's absurd "11-degree upward angle" of the bullet path through JFK's upper back and neck....
Not only isn't the SBT a "silly myth", it's almost certainly a rock-solid FACT.
Almost certainly? Really?
When you are not even sure enough to leave "almost" out and the matter is still open to discussion and interpretation of a few video images, you can not call it "a rock-solid FACT"
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 07:05:14 PM
When you are not even sure enough to leave "almost" out and the matter is still open to discussion and interpretation of a few video images, you can not call it "a rock-solid FACT"
Don't I get even as much as half of a bonus point for my use of the word "almost"?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 26, 2024, 07:19:36 PM
This is silly denial of the obvious. I notice you ignored the point that we have known for years that even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205 ("Memorandum for the Record: Conference of April 14, 1964, to Determine Which Frames in the Zapruder Movies Show the Impact of the First and Second Bullets," written by WC attorney Melvin Eisenberg, 4/22/64, p. 1).
The HSCA's "Z190" SBT timeline is total nonsense and totally wrong.
Your comment is what is total nonsense and totally wrong. It is beyond me how you can say this stuff on a public board and still pretend to be any kind of serious researcher of the JFK case. You simply ignored the HSCA PEP's point that Willis slide 5 was snapped at Z202 in response to hearing a gunshot that hit Kennedy, which would put the shot at around Z184-190.
You also ignored the fact that Olson and Turner noted the same reactive motions before Z207 that the HSCA PEP noted, and that even the WC's experts recognized JFK's pre-207 reaction.
President Kennedy's right hand is still being LOWERED between Z224 and 225:
Uh, yeah, that's because his forearm motion is jerky as he is trying to bring his hands up to his throat. It is not one smooth upward motion--it is a halting, jerky motion because he's been injured and is feeling considerable pain.
And in Z224, his left arm, which had been lying comfortably at his side, is now elevated, is bent inward, and is nearly up to his throat. This fact alone destroys your silly Z224 SBT. There is no way this reaction could be in response to a Z224 hit. Humans can't react that quickly to a gunshot wound.
And in Z222, Jackie is staring intently at JFK. She begins to turn her head rapidly toward JFK at Z202, and she is still looking at him in Z222. Why? Obviously, because she has realized that something is wrong with her husband, and she clearly realizes this long before Z224.
Only people who are willing to deny reality and delude themselves will deny that these reactions self-evidently, undoubtedly, indisputably show that JFK was hit many frames before Z224.
Connally's and Kennedy's right arms are then simultaneously moving upward between 225 and 226. And Connally was struck in his RIGHT wrist during the shooting. Just a coincidence? If so, what's causing this rapid up-then-down movement of the exact same arm/wrist that was wounded by a bullet?
Yes, again, it is entirely a coincidence because JFK plainly and clearly begins to bring both of his hands up to his throat long before Z224. I know you can see these things, but you won't acknowledge them. And, once again, you simply ignored all the evidence I cited and merely repeated your claim.
I notice you seem to have a habit of repeating your arguments after you dismiss or ignore facts that refute them.
CTers have come up with all kinds of lame-ass excuses to explain away all of the many things we see going on with Governor Connally in Zapruder frames 224 to 230 [GO HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html) to see about a dozen such excuses], but sensible people can easily see through the B.S. and constant denial being exhibited by the conspiracy theorists.
Well, 2/3 to 3/4 of the Western world rejects your view of the assassination, so you might want to exercise just a tiny bit of caution and decorum in your verbiage instead of this overheated polemic.
Actually, CTers have offered a very sensible, plausible explanation for Connally's head turn and reaction in Z224-230, starting with the fact that Connally himself--you know, the guy who actually experienced the wounding--adamantly insisted that he was not hit before Z228, and that he chose Z234 as the frame of impact.
Connally himself also explained why he turns his head from right to left in Z224-230: because he has just finished trying to look at JFK in response to hearing a gunshot! This explains why he looks tense and stiff. He knew he had just heard a gunshot, so of course he became tense and stiff and had got a concerned look on his face.
But, according to you guys, by Z230 it has been six frames since Connally has had a bullet tear through his chest, shatter his right wrist, and penetrate into his thigh!
Incidentally, I notice that you again said nothing about JFK's dramatic Z226-232 forward-jolt reaction, which happens to be the subject of this thread. I notice you keep ignoring it. How do you explain Connally's lack of dramatic pre-Z238 reaction to Kennedy's being jolted sharply forward in Z226 twelve frames earlier?
Nothing in your blog article--not one word--addresses the evidence cited by the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel (FPP) and years earlier by Dr. Werner Spitz that the bullet entered at an upward angle and traveled upward inside the body. Allow me to again quote Dr. Spitz's 1975 finding when he served as a member of the Rockefeller Commission’s medical panel:
-------------------------------------------------------- There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf) --------------------------------------------------------
Can you cite a single medical expert who has disputed the HSCA FPP's evidence that the back-wound bullet penetrated at an upward angle and traveled upward within the body? A number of other medical experts have concurred with the FPP's finding, such as Dr. Mantik and Dr. Aguilar.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 29, 2024, 10:49:06 PM
The VERY LOW position of both of JFK's hands at Z225 provides the virtual proof that Kennedy was not hit nearly as early as Z190:
From frame Z224 to Z225 Kennedy is lowering his right hand towards his chest which is starting to clench into a fist. The shadow on the back of his right hand in Z224 helps to indicate the orientation as his open hand begins to become a fist.
Then between Z225 to Z226 Kennedy swiftly raises his cupping right hand while attaining the resulting Thorburn position, towards his throat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L81Qchf0/225-226-Full.gif)
As the clip progresses, we see Kennedy's elbows shoot up and it's only then a concerned Jackie who while quickly glancing at the reacting Connally, places her hand on her husbands left elbow which proves that Kennedy was not hit earlier and thereafter Jackie realizes that in the previous couple of seconds something very drastic has just happened to the two men in the Limo.
With the benefit of these toggled frames we get to analyze with great precision these repeated movements. And I know that if Connally way back when he examined individual frames had this added degree of accuracy he would would heartily agree with this inescapable conclusion!
JohnM
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael Capasse on January 30, 2024, 03:07:48 AM
Shot 1: circa z133 (perhaps a fraction of a second before Zapruder recommenced filming) The shot that missed.
Shot 2: at z224 (The single-bullet fact)
Shot 3: at z313 (The headshot)
Verdict: Beyond all reasonable doubt and accepted as fact by rational-thinking individuals, Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin, and there was no conspiracy. Long live the Warren Commission and its conclusions; case closed.
Thumb1:
I looked at the shot jiggles at various point in the Zapruder Film and found that up to and including the headshot, Zapruder had 3 vertical jumps. And working backwards from the obvious headshot which confirmed the vertical jiggle a few frames later, next we have the SBF jiggle happening a few frames after Kennedy and Connally simultaneously react and then we come to the first jiggle which can be confirmed by Rosemary Willis hearing a gunshot and slowing down, and we also have the testimony from Connally that states he heard a gunshot and turned to look over his right shoulder. We can also see Kennedy's quick head snap to the right.
Zapruder also has some horizontal panning corrections which result in what appear to be horizontal jiggles but by studying the frames after the headshot and the SBF, we know how Zapruder reacted to the sounds of gunshots.
From frame Z224 to Z225 Kennedy is lowering his right hand towards his chest which is starting to clench into a fist. The shadow on the back of his right hand in Z224 helps to indicate the orientation as his open hand begins to become a fist.
You people are incredible. Dealing with your denials of readily observable facts is literally like dealing with members of a cult or with Flat Earth Society members.
You and David Von Pein simply ignored my points about JFK's pre-207 reaction, about the fact that JFK's upward hand movement is jerky--that it goes up and then down and then up again--and is not one smooth upward motion, about the Z207-223 movement of JFK's left arm that we see still in progress in Z224, and about Jackie's pre-Z224 reaction (which, as the HSCA PEP noted, begins before Z207).
You also ignored the fact that we now know that even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205 ("Memorandum for the Record: Conference of April 14, 1964, to Determine Which Frames in the Zapruder Movies Show the Impact of the First and Second Bullets," written by WC attorney Melvin Eisenberg, 4/22/64, p. 1).
You guys just brushed aside all these inconvenient facts and merely repeated your arguments.
Then between Z225 to Z226 Kennedy swiftly raises his cupping right hand while attaining the resulting Thorburn position, towards his throat.
Holy cow! The Thorburn position?! Did you really just repeat the Thorburn-position argument?! This is more embarrassing proof that you've never dared or bothered to read any serious research that challenges the lone-gunman theory.
The Thorburn-position nonsense is part of the quackery that John Lattimer fed to gullible WC apologists back in the 1970s. It was destroyed soon after Lattimer published it. Among other problems, Lattimer assumed that the back wound was as high as C6 (when in fact it was no higher than T1).
Even worse, Lattimer ignored the fact that Dr. Thorburn's patient, the one that Lattimer cited as an alleged example, was not even brought to him until four days after the injury. Dr. Thorburn never once claimed that this was an immediate reaction to a spinal injury.
Equally bad, Lattimer ignored the fact that Dr. Thorburn specified that his patient suffered a "complete transverse destruction of the spinal cord," but JFK suffered no such spinal injury.
Indeed, the SBT posits that the magic bullet somehow missed hitting the spinal cord. You see, if the bullet had even just nicked the spinal cord, it would have begun to pitch and yaw and thus could not have created a small, neat "exit" wound in the throat. This is why some WC apologists have produced bogus graphics with trajectory overlays that purport to show how the bullet supposedly could have avoided hitting the spine. (Dr. Mantik has proved with a CT scan overlay that the bullet could not have reached the throat without smashing through the spine.)
Worst of all, in Dr. Thorburn's own diagram of the Thorburn position, i.e., the diagram that Lattimer cited, the man's forearms are not bent inward; they are not on/near his chest and are nowhere near his throat--rather the man's arms are flexed outward with the elbows extended away from each side of the body and with the hands extended upward from each elbow and with the forearms bent upward. This bears no resemblance to the position of JFK's hands and arms in Z224-232. Have you ever even seen Thorburn's own diagram of the position?
You guys like to quote Pat Speer. Well, even Pat Speer admits that the Thorburn-position argument is absurd. I quote from Speer's online book:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ But Lattimer and Posner compounded Life's silliness by desperately trying to explain away what would have to be seen as an incredibly rapid reaction by Kennedy to the bullet striking him at frame 224. Yep, in a moment of profound weakness, they offered up that the bullet nicked Kennedy's spine, and caused him to assume “Thorburn’s Position,” which they claimed was an immediate locking of the arms. . . .
Thus, in 1993, the very next year, the ever-inventive Posner offered the single-assassin faithful the solution they'd been looking for, telling them on page 328 that a spinal injury to Kennedy's sixth cervical vertebra, as purported by Lattimer, would cause an "instantaneous reaction." On the next page he spelled out just how "instantaneous." He wrote: "Kennedy's Thorburn response, from spinal damage, at frames 226-227, came between one tenth to two tenths of a second after the bullet hit him, which translates to 1.8 to 3.66 Zapruder frames."
By pretending that Kennedy's reaction could have started as late as frame 227, and that it could have taken as little as one-tenth of a second, Posner was, not surprisingly, covering his pet assassination theory. If people said Kennedy first showed signs of being hit by 227, he could say the reaction took two-tenths of a second. If they said he first showed signs by 226 he could say it took one tenth of a second.
Posner failed to tell his readers that both the Warren Commission and HSCA concluded that Kennedy was clearly reacting to something before frame 226, and that both sides of the 1992 mock trial he cited throughout his book agreed that the reaction time would be at least two tenths of a second, and that the one tenth of a second reaction time he presented for his readers' consideration was something he just made up.
What we need to note here is that Lattimer and his devotee Posner, by pushing the "Thorburn theory," were simultaneously rejecting the conclusions of both the Warren Commission and HSCA that Kennedy was hit when he came out from behind the sign, and were instead pushing that Kennedy was not responding to a shot, but only waving, in frames 224 and 225 of the Zapruder film. And that's just plain silly.
Actually, Posner and the single-assassin community's propping up of Lattimer and his "Thorburn theory" to help sell the single-bullet theory is worse than their simply being silly. Lattimer's "Thorburn theory," holding that Kennedy's arms immediately locked into place after being hit, was, and is, a hoax. A careful viewing of the Zapruder film shows that although Kennedy’s elbows remain slightly bent after frame 224 for the phenomenal length of five seconds, his arms themselves are far from locked and drop almost immediately. Even more damaging, as discovered by Millicent Cranor and reported by Wallace Milam, the position described by Thorburn in the 1800's was not an immediate locking of the arms, but a position assumed over a couple of days as the afflicted patient sunk into paralysis and death. (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12thesingle-bulletfact (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12thesingle-bulletfact)) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read and educate yourself about the ludicrous Thorburn-position argument:
As the clip progresses, we see Kennedy's elbows shoot up and it's only then a concerned Jackie who while quickly glancing at the reacting Connally, places her hand on her husbands left elbow which proves that Kennedy was not hit earlier and thereafter Jackie realizes that in the previous couple of seconds something very drastic has just happened to the two men in the Limo.
With the benefit of these toggled frames we get to analyze with great precision these repeated movements. And I know that if Connally way back when he examined individual frames had this added degree of accuracy he would would heartily agree with this inescapable conclusion! JohnM
This is silly self-delusion and an amazing denial of visible reality. I mean, this is just crazy. As the HSCA PEP noted, by Z202-204 Jackie has made a sudden turn to her right to look at JFK, and she is still looking intently at him when she reemerges from behind the road sign in Z222. How can you deny these facts with a straight face?
At the very latest, Jackie's rightward head turn is obvious in Z206, and, again, she is still staring at JFK in Z222, obviously because she has already realized that something is wrong with JFK. I know you can see this. Anyone can. But you won't admit it because your theory says that JFK was not hit before Z224.
You guys also have to dance around the movement of JFK's left arm. Pre-Z207, his left arm is motionless and resting comfortably at his side, but barely 1 second later, in Z224, his left arm is now bent inward and his left hand is coming up toward his throat. I know you can see this. Anyone can. But you won't admit it because your theory says JFK was not hit before Z224, and there's no way he could have reacted with his left arm that quickly to a Z224 hit--in less than 56 thousandths of a second.
Finally, I notice that you are still ignoring the fact that JFK is suddenly jolted sharply forward starting in Z226. This is another fatal problem for the SBT because Connally's right shoulder is not slammed downward until Z238, not to mention that JFK begins to react to an earlier wounding starting no later than Z200 when he starts to whip his head to the left and suddenly freezes his waving motion and then his hand movements become irregular.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 30, 2024, 03:53:49 PM
...even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205
I'm struggling to see that in the Zapruder frames. Would you have frames or a gif that reveals that?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on January 30, 2024, 06:41:50 PM
...even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205
I'm struggling to see that in the Zapruder frames. Would you have frames or a gif that reveals that?
Regarding the jerkiness, just watch the film in slow motion (0.25 speed) and start at, say, Z185, and notice how his waving motion starts to freeze at around Z200.
Regarding the unusually high position of his right elbow in Z204-205, you can't see this? Just look at the still frames. It's pretty obvious that something odd is going on with his right elbow. That's not a natural position and is unlike his elbow's position up to that point.
The WC's experts saw these things. So did the HSCA PEP experts. So did Olson and Turner in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. So have a number of other private experts.
One of the most obvious Rosetta Stones that destroys the SBT is Jackie's self-evident reaction that starts in the Z190s and is impossible to miss by Z206, at the very latest. Starting in the Z190s, she suddenly snaps her head to the right and by Z202-204, no later than Z206, she has turned her head from left to right and is looking intently at JFK, and she is still looking straight at him in Z222. To all but the brainwashed and the blind, this is self-evident proof that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207 and before Z224.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 30, 2024, 08:47:28 PM
Regarding the jerkiness, just watch the film in slow motion (0.25 speed) and start at, say, Z185, and notice how his waving motion starts to freeze at around Z200.
Regarding the unusually high position of his right elbow in Z204-205, you can't see this? Just look at the still frames. It's pretty obvious that something odd is going on with his right elbow. That's not a natural position and is unlike his elbow's position up to that point.
The WC's experts saw these things. So did the HSCA PEP experts. So did Olson and Turner in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. So have a number of other private experts.
One of the most obvious Rosetta Stones that destroys the SBT is Jackie's self-evident reaction that starts in the Z190s and is impossible to miss by Z206, at the very latest. Starting in the Z190s, she suddenly snaps her head to the right and by Z202-204, no later than Z206, she has turned her head from left to right and is looking intently at JFK, and she is still looking straight at him in Z222. To all but the brainwashed and the blind, this is self-evident proof that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207 and before Z224.
Thanks, I got the frames from the photo gallery link. I don't see anything that proves an earlier shot. Kennedy's hand is high as he is waving to passers by. He holds that last high wave (nothing unusual about that) and appears to turn to Jackie. They could have been simply sharing a laugh about what they had seen or heard, to the right of the limo - "We love you Jackie!" - "Ha ha! D'ya hear that Jackie?". The first visual sign of an impact is just as they emerge from the sign.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: John Mytton on January 30, 2024, 09:14:09 PM
Thanks, I got the frames from the photo gallery link. I don't see anything that proves an earlier shot. Kennedy's hand is high as he is waving to passers by. He holds that last high wave (nothing unusual about that) and appears to turn to Jackie. They could have been simply sharing a laugh about what they had seen or heard, to the right of the limo - "We love you Jackie!" - "Ha ha! D'ya hear that Jackie?". The first visual sign of an impact is just as they emerge from the sign.
Thumb1:
Griffith is stuck in the last the Century and hasn't grasped the advancements of stabilization, and anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that Griffith claims he sees in the Zapruder Film because he is on record claiming that huge sections of the entire Film have been Faked, like his absurd analysis that Brehm's son shows movement that is impossible, and that's only the start of his long list of amateur observations!!
The Zapruder Film in this stabilized GIF from frame Z182 through to Z247 clearly shows nothing unusual about Kennedy waving as he disappears behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, but when he emerges both elbows suddenly and quite dramatically raise and at the same time Connally is violently reacting, to deny this simultaneous reaction to both Men being struck by CE399, is insane. And addressing Griffith's so called "Rosetta Stone" LOL, before they reach the sign, the entire occupants of the Limo are aware of the first gunshot, hence Jackie checking out the welfare of her husband but when JFK is actually hit, this is the point in time that Jackie reaches out to JFK and places her reassuring hand on his obviously just raised elbow.
Just before Kennedy goes behind the sign, his right Elbow can be seen casually resting on the side of the Limo and to claim that "It's pretty obvious that something odd is going on with his right elbow." is just another crazy ass amateur observation.
I picked out the two clearest Zapruder frames before the sign and the first Zapruder frame which partially obscures Kennedy's right elbow and I still can't see "something odd" with the movement of Kennedy's right elbow or arm!
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on January 31, 2024, 01:50:25 AM
"....... and at the same time Connally is violently reacting....." = Total BS: Stop proffering your jaded opinion as if it were fact. It ain't. You guys have been on Tilt ever since Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE proved that the, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". Getta grip!
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: John Mytton on January 31, 2024, 02:41:17 AM
"....... and at the same time Connally is violently reacting....." = Total BS: Stop proffering your jaded opinion as if it were fact. It ain't. You guys have been on Tilt ever since Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE proved that the, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". Getta grip!
Not only does Connally show a violent reaction, the right side of Connally's jacket forcefully thrusts forward, you know the same jacket side which has a hole in it! Oops!
I think that maybe the light flesh tone on Rosemary's face was faded or by glare or had blurred to white for a frame or two in the Z140s, making it only seem she turned her head. If not, she managed to turn her head fully to her right and back again over two frames. (Cue Zapruder alterationist claim)
Not sure why a Running Kid that is wearing a hoody up over their ears would be proffered as an EARwitness. Probably says something about the weakness of the case.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on January 31, 2024, 04:24:26 PM
Paul McBrearty: Rosemary Willis appears to be reacting to the first shot circa z142, evidenced by her rapid head turn to the right toward the Book Depository.
...or her mother shouting "Rosemary!! Get back here!!"
When Rosemary Willis became an adult and was asked about her reaction in the Zapruder film, she said she stopped and turned because she heard a loud bang.
She begins to noticeably slow down between Z162 and Z174, and she is standing still by no later than Z187. "Circa Z142" seems a little bit early to me, though certainly not implausible. I think this shot was probably fired between Z145 and Z155.
Not only does Connally show a violent reaction, the right side of Connally's jacket forcefully thrusts forward, you know the same jacket side which has a hole in it! Oops! JohnM
This is timeworn, debunked nonsense. And this regurgitated nonsense doesn't even address JFK's and Jackie's pre-Z207 reactions, Jackie's Z222-224 reaction, JFK's being jolted forward in Z226, and the slamming down of Connally's right shoulder in Z238.
Connally's jacket is not "forcefully thrust forward" but bunches outward as a natural result of his turning his head and upper body. As Connally himself explained, in Z224 he is turning his head and upper body back to the left after having turned to the right to see try to see JFK, so of course the right side of his coat is going to bunch outward a bit as a result of his having turned sharply to his right. And note that the right side of his jacket is flat and normal again in Z228 because his shoulders are virtually parallel with the limo's roll bar.
And never mind that Connally himself--you know, the guy who actually experienced the wounding--said he was certain he was not hit before Z228, right? He said this after carefully studying high-quality color prints of the Zapruder frames with a high-powered magnification loupe. But, nah, never mind that, right? He was "mistaken," because you and other WC apologists know his reactions better than he did!
You people are just amazing in your refusal to acknowledge visible, observable reality because that reality destroys your theory of the shooting.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 31, 2024, 06:02:35 PM
When Rosemary Willis became an adult and was asked about her reaction in the Zapruder film, she said she stopped and turned because she heard a loud bang.
OK. Ta. Thumb1:
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 31, 2024, 06:36:12 PM
Willis gave more details in the story that can be read here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3899.msg154068.html#msg154068
She said she heard three shots and that all came from direction of the TSBD. But she insisted that "someone with a silencer" could have been the one who killed JFK and that "Oswald was up there as clear as could be. I think he was up there on purpose to make people think he was the one."
"Up there to make people think he was the one"? And he would do this why?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 31, 2024, 06:48:22 PM
So, we have the shot heard by some people as the limo turned onto Elm + the shot that stopped Rosemary in her tracks. Two audible shots before the magic bullet.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 31, 2024, 08:30:43 PM
Thanks, Gerry. Look at this enhanced version of the Zapruder film depicting Rosemary Willis's slow-motion movements. As one can see, she turned her head toward the Texas School Book Depository, a movement which she commenced at approximately z142; her face is in shadow. In my opinion, it is evident from this video that at no time is "the light flesh tone on Rosemary's face faded or by glare or had blurred to white for a frame or two in the z140s." I also contend that Miss Willis is looking toward the Depository as early as circa z142, an action she undertook possibly in response to her hearing the first shot, which may have occurred a fraction of a second before z142. One must not overlook this action by Miss Willis with regard to the number and timing of shots. It is imperative from a historical point of view.
It's difficult for me to determine whether and when she turns her head to watch/see the limo as she's running and/or whether and when it's because of the gunshot. Wouldn't she stop when hearing the gunshot? But she's running (slowing down along the way) and turning her head at the same time.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on January 31, 2024, 09:37:15 PM
Pseudo Z105 (shot-1) to Z133 is 28 frames, which is 1.48 sec based on 27 frames (based on needing 1 frame to reach the ears). So, Willis would have had a voluntary reaction say at pseudo Z115 (ie 10 frames after shot-1)(well before Z133). And Willis would have had an involuntary startle reaction say at pseudo Z110 (ie 5 frames after shot-1).
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on February 01, 2024, 06:46:05 PM
Watched an old Jack White video on "You Tube" the other day. Jack had some screwy JFK Assassination ideas during his time, but on this video he made a solid but simple Z Film observation addressing this same segment of the film. He wondered why we see a Bee Hive of activity on the (S) side of Elm St, (Willis kid running/stopping, Old Man Willis stepping from Elm St back onto the curb, Bob Croft lowering his camera from his face, the Old Woman wildly waving her handkerchief at JFK, etc, but all the people stretching down the (N) side of Elm St are almost stock still throughout this same period of time. This is an extremely strange Z Film contrast.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on May 29, 2025, 03:24:53 PM
It should be pointed out again and again that the most sophisticated trajectory analysis ever done refutes the single-bullet theory. The analysis was done by Knott Laboratory in 2023. The Knott Lab engineers placed the JFK and JBC figures after creating a digital twin of Dealey Plaza and then using AI-assisted photogrammetric analysis of the Zapruder film, photos of the limo, and various other photos to place the figures in the limousine. They made the digital twin of the plaza by doing an exhaustive laser survey of the plaza, collecting millions of data points to enable a digital 3D recreation of the plaza that was an exact duplicate of the plaza in every aspect. After making the digital twin, they used photogrammetric analysis to place the Kennedy and Connally figures in the limousine (as well as to place the limousine in the correct position on Elm Street).
This is abject nonsense. Did you even bother to read the OP? JFK starts raising his right arm long before Connally does. JFK's waving motion freezes by no later than Z200 as he starts to bring both hands inward and upward toward his throat. He's in the process of doing this when he disappears from view in Z207. This is long before Connally starts to raise his arm, and this is even longer before Connally's right shoulder is slammed downward in Z238.
I notice you said nothing about JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, the main subject of the OP.
I also notice you said nothing about the fact that the HSCA PEP determined that JFK was hit at or before Z190.
I also notice you said nothing about Jackie's pre-Z207 reaction and her Z222-223 reaction, which undeniably prove that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207. Poof, on that basis alone your absurd Z224 SBT collapses.
Did you miss the news that the HSCA FPP determined that the back wound was below the throat wound, that the bullet struck the back at an upward angle, and that the tunneling inside the wound indicated that the bullet traveled upward after it entered the back? The HSCA FPP noted that "the wound beneath the skin appears to be tunneled from below upward" (7 HSCA 87). HSCA FPP Figure 12 shows the back wound slightly below the throat wound (7 HSCA 100). The upward-trajectory finding confirmed the 1975 finding of Dr. Werner Spitz of the Rockefeller Commission’s medical panel:
-------------------------------------------------------- There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf (https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)) --------------------------------------------------------
A "nearly perfect" SBT demonstration, huh?! I guess you didn't notice that Specter has the rod at a level on the back that is far below the stand-in's collar and far below the WC's location for the back wound? The WC's Rydberg drawing has the wound on the neck and above the throat wound (CE 385). I guess you also didn't notice that Specter has the bullet exiting at the bottom of the stand-in's tie knot?
I find your appeal to Specter's demonstration in CE 903 curious, because I've had many WC apologists tell me that his demonstration was wrong because he put the back wound too low. You guys need to get your story straight.
I take it you are unaware of the recent 3D laser analysis of the SBT done by the forensic engineering firm Knott Laboratory, the first analysis of its kind ever done of the SBT? Knott Lab's 3D analysis proves that the SBT is impossible. Here's an article about Knott Lab's historic analysis:
Here's a 24-minute podcast interview with Knott Lab CEO and Principal Engineer Stanley Stoll in which he explains the Knott 3D laser analysis and shows clips based on the digital reconstruction from the 3D laser data:
FYI, the Knott Lab engineers placed the JFK and JBC figures after creating a digital twin of Dealey Plaza and then using AI-assisted photogrammetric analysis of the Zapruder film, photos of the limo, and various other photos to place the figures in the limousine. They made the digital twin of the plaza by doing an exhaustive laser survey of the plaza, collecting millions of data points to enable a digital 3D recreation of the plaza that was an exact duplicate of the plaza in every aspect. After making the digital twin, they used photogrammetric analysis to place the Kennedy and Connally figures in the limousine (as well as to place the limousine in the correct position on Elm Street).
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 29, 2025, 04:15:24 PM
It is strange how the Covid Mantra of, "Follow The Science", does Not apply to the Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE finding that the SBT, "IS IMPOSSIBLE". And the SBT is the cornerstone of the 3 Shots/1 Shooter Scenario.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on May 29, 2025, 04:29:11 PM
It should be pointed out again and again that the most sophisticated trajectory analysis ever done refutes the single-bullet theory. The analysis was done by Knott Laboratory in 2023. The Knott Lab engineers placed the JFK and JBC figures after creating a digital twin of Dealey Plaza and then using AI-assisted photogrammetric analysis of the Zapruder film, photos of the limo, and various other photos to place the figures in the limousine. They made the digital twin of the plaza by doing an exhaustive laser survey of the plaza, collecting millions of data points to enable a digital 3D recreation of the plaza that was an exact duplicate of the plaza in every aspect. After making the digital twin, they used photogrammetric analysis to place the Kennedy and Connally figures in the limousine (as well as to place the limousine in the correct position on Elm Street).
It should be pointed out again and again that the most sophisticated trajectory analysis ever done refutes the single-bullet theory. The analysis was done by Knott Laboratory in 2023.
Maybe it is not so grand. In the cartoon, they still indicate the bullet exited JFK and struck JBC in the back. Isn’t that still Single Bullet theory? The red line trajectory on JBC looks to have originated in outer space. How could you ever doubt these guys?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on May 29, 2025, 04:31:28 PM
It is strange how the Covid Mantra of, "Follow The Science", does Not apply to the Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE finding that the SBT, "IS IMPOSSIBLE".
Especially given the fact that the Knott Lab analysis is the most thorough and sophisticated SBT trajectory analysis ever done. No previous analysis even comes close to matching the depth and sophistication of the Knott Lab analysis.
You can bet that if the Knott Lab analysis had concluded the SBT was possible, WC apologists would endlessly note that it is the most sophisticated, thorough SBT trajectory study ever done.
Another large nail in the SBT's coffin is the fact that JFK plainly, obviously begins to react to a hit at least 17 frames before Z224, and that when Jackie reemerges into view in Z224 she has clearly already noticed JFK's reaction. The HSCA photographic experts determined that JFK was hit at right around Z190, 34 frames before the current SBT says Connally was hit.
The Z190 hit is all the more devastating to the SBT when we consider JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction when he is visibly jolted forward and his hands and elbows are flung upward. Obviously, the bullet that jolted him forward was not the same bullet that hit him at Z190.
These things are obvious to anyone who is not bound by the SBT.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 29, 2025, 04:45:09 PM
And then there is Gov Connally Not reacting to the same bullet. The SBT should have been exposed as "IMPOSSIBLE" long ago, but even today we had an eggplant paraded around as POTUS. The News Media continues being nothing more than a propaganda arm.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on May 29, 2025, 05:14:10 PM
The SBT should have been exposed as "IMPOSSIBLE" long ago
Michael posted the video. Is there another? You two cannot see what is depicted in the cartoon? Maybe you just do not want to see it for what it is, and see just how stupid this really is?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 29, 2025, 05:44:38 PM
Especially given the fact that the Knott Lab analysis is the most thorough and sophisticated SBT trajectory analysis ever done. No previous analysis even comes close to matching the depth and sophistication of the Knott Lab analysis.
How have you determined that the Knott Lab analysis is the most thorough and sophisticated SBT trajectory analysis ever done? Have you read their study in its entirety? If so, where can it be read?
Knott did what they were paid to do. That is, come up with a result that would rule out the SBT. Their study was paid for by longtime conspiracy theorist John Orr. Their finding is contradicted by the film analysis done by the ITEK Corp in the 1970s.
The ITEK film analysis placed Connally's face 6.4" +/- 2.2" inboard of Kennedy. They had the original Zapruder film at their disposal, as well as a first generation copy. They also had high quality copies of the Betzner and Willis photos. Among their team were those with experience in photographic science, special photographic processing, photo interpretation, image analysis, coherent optical image processing, photogrammetry, and digital image processing.
Knott does not state how far inboard that they determined that Connally was. Nor are they specific on what materials they used for their study. They only say that he was not 6" to 10" inboard and that they used 25 historic photographs and 7 frames of the Zapruder film. What copy of the film they used is not revealed by them. Nor are we told what the historic photographs are. It seems that they have not made their full study available. All we have is worthless claims that lack any real support.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 29, 2025, 08:57:55 PM
You guys want Connally positioned 6"-10" inboard? The Jump Seats will NOT move 6"-10" inboard. There's a Hump running down the center of the JFK Limo preventing the moving of those Jump Seats to the (L) - (R). Just look at the Love Field footage of their boarding the JFK Limo. The film shot from the Drivers Side of the Limo shows how tightly those jump seats fit (L) - (R). They had to carefully close the passenger door from the outside in order to avoid banging Gov Connally's leg. Connally could maybe LEAN that far over to his (L), but what would prompt him to suddenly do this "Gumby" maneuver? The inboard argument went out the window with the improved definition of the footage shot at Love Field.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 29, 2025, 09:44:50 PM
You guys want Connally positioned 6"-10" inboard? The Jump Seats will NOT move 6"-10" inboard. There's a Hump running down the center of the JFK Limo preventing the moving of those Jump Seats to the (L) - (R). Just look at the Love Field footage of their boarding the JFK Limo. The film shot from the Drivers Side of the Limo shows how tightly those jump seats fit (L) - (R). They had to carefully close the passenger door from the outside in order to avoid banging Gov Connally's leg. Connally could maybe LEAN that far over to his (L), but what would prompt him to suddenly do this "Gumby" maneuver? The inboard argument went out the window with the improved definition of the footage shot at Love Field.
Connally's jumpseat was 6 inches from his door, as measured by Secret Service agent Thomas Kelley. When Connally turned to look over his right shoulder, he shifted his body inboard on the seat.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 29, 2025, 11:32:55 PM
Connally's jumpseat was 6 inches from his door, as measured by Secret Service agent Thomas Kelley. When Connally turned to look over his right shoulder, he shifted his body inboard on the seat.
SA Kelley NEVER testified that he actually measured the distance from the edge of the jump seat to the edge of the Limo Door. And, the date Kelley gave for the SS Reconstruction he participated in, was actually the "2nd" SS Reconstruction and did NOT use the JFK Limo. Kelley was questioned by Specter who dreamed up the SBT. Specter knew exactly what he needed to make the SBT remotely plausible. Specter was getting his ducks inna row, Take 2. Also, it was very clever of Specter to NOT ask Kelley the distance from the (L) edge of Gov Connally's jump seat to the Hump running down the center of the JFK Limo.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 01:20:38 AM
This is abject nonsense. Did you even bother to read the OP? JFK starts raising his right arm long before Connally does. JFK's waving motion freezes by no later than Z200 as he starts to bring both hands inward and upward toward his throat. He's in the process of doing this when he disappears from view in Z207. This is long before Connally starts to raise his arm, and this is even longer before Connally's right shoulder is slammed downward in Z238.
I notice you said nothing about JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, the main subject of the OP.
I also notice you said nothing about the fact that the HSCA PEP determined that JFK was hit at or before Z190.
I also notice you said nothing about Jackie's pre-Z207 reaction and her Z222-223 reaction, which undeniably prove that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207. Poof, on that basis alone your absurd Z224 SBT collapses.
Did you miss the news that the HSCA FPP determined that the back wound was below the throat wound, that the bullet struck the back at an upward angle, and that the tunneling inside the wound indicated that the bullet traveled upward after it entered the back? The HSCA FPP noted that "the wound beneath the skin appears to be tunneled from below upward" (7 HSCA 87). HSCA FPP Figure 12 shows the back wound slightly below the throat wound (7 HSCA 100). The upward-trajectory finding confirmed the 1975 finding of Dr. Werner Spitz of the Rockefeller Commission’s medical panel:
-------------------------------------------------------- There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf (https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)) --------------------------------------------------------
A "nearly perfect" SBT demonstration, huh?! I guess you didn't notice that Specter has the rod at a level on the back that is far below the stand-in's collar and far below the WC's location for the back wound? The WC's Rydberg drawing has the wound on the neck and above the throat wound (CE 385). I guess you also didn't notice that Specter has the bullet exiting at the bottom of the stand-in's tie knot?
I find your appeal to Specter's demonstration in CE 903 curious, because I've had many WC apologists tell me that his demonstration was wrong because he put the back wound too low. You guys need to get your story straight.
I take it you are unaware of the recent 3D laser analysis of the SBT done by the forensic engineering firm Knott Laboratory, the first analysis of its kind ever done of the SBT? Knott Lab's 3D analysis proves that the SBT is impossible. Here's an article about Knott Lab's historic analysis:
Here's a 24-minute podcast interview with Knott Lab CEO and Principal Engineer Stanley Stoll in which he explains the Knott 3D laser analysis and shows clips based on the digital reconstruction from the 3D laser data:
FYI, the Knott Lab engineers placed the JFK and JBC figures after creating a digital twin of Dealey Plaza and then using AI-assisted photogrammetric analysis of the Zapruder film, photos of the limo, and various other photos to place the figures in the limousine. They made the digital twin of the plaza by doing an exhaustive laser survey of the plaza, collecting millions of data points to enable a digital 3D recreation of the plaza that was an exact duplicate of the plaza in every aspect. After making the digital twin, they used photogrammetric analysis to place the Kennedy and Connally figures in the limousine (as well as to place the limousine in the correct position on Elm Street).
Dear Mike,
Going from memory here, but didn't Knott Lab do its "analysis" based on images from a video game?
-- Tom
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 30, 2025, 01:32:02 AM
SA Kelley NEVER testified that he actually measured the distance from the edge of the jump seat to the edge of the Limo Door. And, the date Kelley gave for the SS Reconstruction he participated in, was actually the "2nd" SS Reconstruction and did NOT use the JFK Limo. Kelley was questioned by Specter who dreamed up the SBT. Specter knew exactly what he needed to make the SBT remotely plausible. Specter was getting his ducks inna row, Take 2. Also, it was very clever of Specter to NOT ask Kelley the distance from the (L) edge of Gov Connally's jump seat to the Hump running down the center of the JFK Limo.
Kelley doesn't say that he actually measured the distance, that's true. The edge of the door was recessed inboard of where the edge of the car was next to JFK. If one goes by the Hess & Eisenhardt diagram, Connally's seat was about 3.5 inches inboard of the edge of the car next to where JFK was seated. Connally shifting over in his seat as he turned to look around placed him well inboard of JFK. ITEK placed him as much as 8.6 inches inboard of JFK. The Itek film analysis is the gold standard. You'll never be able to put the wound on Connally out of range of the SB trajectory no matter how much you try.
Specter never dreamed up the SBT. He came to the realization of it together with other WC staff lawyers. They were extremely slow in coming to that realization.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 30, 2025, 02:10:57 AM
Kelley doesn't say that he actually measured the distance, that's true. The edge of the door was recessed inboard of where the edge of the car was next to JFK. If one goes by the Hess & Eisenhardt diagram, Connally's seat was about 3.5 inches inboard of the edge of the car next to where JFK was seated. Connally shifting over in his seat as he turned to look around placed him well inboard of JFK. ITEK placed him as much as 8.6 inches inboard of JFK. The Itek film analysis is the gold standard. You'll never be able to put the wound on Connally out of range of the SB trajectory no matter how much you try.
Specter never dreamed up the SBT. He came to the realization of it together with other WC staff lawyers. They were extremely slow in coming to that realization.
They were "extremely slow" because they were forced to keep changing the shots sequence. Specter et al knew the final result had to be 3 shots/1 shooter per LBJ/J Edgar phone call. And then came the chipped curb/Tague. That was another monkey wrench thrown into the works they had to "work" around. I have proved: (1) That is Not Officer Haygood inside the railroad yard on the Darnell Film, and (2) Those "Huge Gates" leading to the TSBD 1st Floor Stairwell were "Wide Open" before and after the Kill Shot. And currently, I am working on that "Lost Bullet" fired by a 2nd Shooter per the HSCA. Yeah, it did happen. .......................... STAY TUNED ............................
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 02:19:44 AM
They were "extremely slow" because they were forced to keep changing the shots sequence. Specter et al knew the final result had to be 3 shots/1 shooter per LBJ/J Edgar phone call. And then came the chipped curb/Tague. That was another monkey wrench thrown into the works they had to "work" around. I have proved: (1) That is Not Officer Haygood inside the railroad yard on the Darnell Film, and (2) Those "Huge Gates" leading to the TSBD 1st Floor Stairwell were "Wide Open" before and after the Kill Shot. And currently, I am working on that "Lost Bullet" fired by a 2nd Shooter per the HSCA. Yeah, it did happen. .......................... STAY TUNED ............................
Storing,
You never did answer my question:
How many bad guys and really, really bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the escaping, and the all-important cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 30, 2025, 02:20:36 AM
They were "extremely slow" because they were forced to keep changing the shots sequence. Specter et al knew the final result had to be 3 shots/1 shooter per LBJ/J Edgar phone call. And then came the chipped curb/Tague. That was another monkey wrench thrown into the works they had to "work" around. I have proved: (1) That is Not Officer Haygood inside the railroad yard on the Darnell Film, and (2) Those "Huge Gates" leading to the TSBD 1st Floor Stairwell were "Wide Open" before and after the Kill Shot. And currently, I am working on that "Lost Bullet" fired by a 2nd Shooter per the HSCA. Yeah, it did happen. .......................... STAY TUNED ............................
They never changed the shot sequence. The Tague strike had nothing to do with the SBT. The Tague strike never became an issue until June 1964. They were talking among themselves about the SBT as early as March and they were duplicating the vertical angle of it in May. Your points 1 and 2 have nothing to do with the SBT. There was no second shooter.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 30, 2025, 02:31:01 AM
I understand the Old Guard JFK Assassination Research Community being embarrassed with respect to the JFK Assassination discoveries I have made in a very short period of time. If I were a member of this "club", I would be embarrassed too. The HSCA declared that a 4th Shot/Missed Shot by a 2nd shooter was made on 11/22/63. Josiah Thompson stands behind that HSCA finding/Dictabelt to this day. I am now working on pinning down that 4th shot/Lost Bullet.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 30, 2025, 03:07:27 AM
I understand the Old Guard JFK Assassination Research Community being embarrassed with respect to the JFK Assassination discoveries I have made in a very short period of time. If I were a member of this "club", I would be embarrassed too. The HSCA declared that a 4th Shot/Missed Shot by a 2nd shooter was made on 11/22/63. Josiah Thompson stands behind that HSCA finding/Dictabelt to this day. I am now working on pinning down that 4th shot/Lost Bullet.
Are you a twin of Brian Doyle? You have the same mannerisms. He talks big and is a major ignorer of reality.
The HSCA did not declare that a 4th Shot/Missed Shot by a 2nd shooter was made on 11/22/63. They said that 4th Shot/Missed Shot by a 2nd shooter was PROBABLY made on 11/22/63. That "probably" finding was based on bogus acoustics evidence. The National Academy of Sciences set it aside in 1982. They debunked it.
For these reasons and for others given in detail in the report, the National Research Council Committee on Ballistic Acoustics unanimously concludes that:
- The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot, and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of 95% probability of such a shot.
- The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
- Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman. --------------------------
The HSCA had a number of other findings. There are no "probably" qualifiers attached to those findings.
1. President Kennedy was struck by two rifle shots fired from behind him. 2. The shots that struck President Kennedy from behind him were fired from the sixth floor window of the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository building. 3. Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle that was used to fire the shots from the sixth floor window of the southeast comer of the Texas School Book Depository building. 4. Lee Harvey Oswald, shortly before the assassination, had access to and was present on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository building. 5. Lee Harvey Oswald's other actions tend to support the conclusion that he assassinated President Kennedy.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 03:13:02 AM
I understand the Old Guard JFK Assassination Research Community being embarrassed with respect to the JFK Assassination discoveries I have made in a very short period of time. If I were a member of this "club", I would be embarrassed too. The HSCA declared that a 4th Shot/Missed Shot by a 2nd shooter was made on 11/22/63. Josiah Thompson stands behind that HSCA finding/Dictabelt to this day. I am now working on pinning down that 4th shot.
Storing,
I personally think your time would be better spent if you used it to pin down a good psychiatrist in your neck of the woods. Maybe he or she can help you with your encouraged-by-Vladimir-Putin tinfoil-hat JFKA Conspiracy Theorist pathologies and your encouraged-by-Vladimir-Putin MAGAT issues.
Regardless, the majority of JFKA witnesses said they heard three shots.
The Dictabelt recording, which Tink Thompson believes proves a four-shot conspiracy, was transmitted at a different time by a stuck-open microphone on a three-wheeled DPD motorcycle that was miles away from Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination, not from a stuck-open microphone on a two-wheeler in the motorcade.
Question: What caused JBC's jacket to bulge outward and his lapel to flap between frames 222 and 225 (going from memory here), and what caused him to raise his beloved Steton hat so soon after JFK had been struck?
Do you agree that JFK's head went violently down and forward between frames 312 and 313?
Why do you have such a strong psychological need to believe the JFKA was a "Deep State" / "Military Industrial Intelligence-Community Complex" / "National Security State" conspiracy?
Because it dovetails with your love for The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with Xxxx)?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 30, 2025, 03:30:57 AM
Josiah Thompson stands firmly behind the Dictabelt/4th Shot/2nd Shooter. So much for this being "debunked". Thompson is Fact Based, and there are Supporting Facts with respect to this issue.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 03:53:59 AM
Josiah Thompson stands firmly behind the Dictabelt/4th Shot/2nd Shooter. So much for this being "debunked". Thompson is Fact Based, and there are Supporting Facts with respect to this issue.
Josiah Thompson (who keeps changing his theory) is a former Far-Left Vietnam War protester who psychologically needs to believe JFK was killed by "The Deep State" / "The Military Industrial Intelligence-Community Complex" / "The National Security State," and will happily perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to do so.
Vladimir Putin cherishes Tink Thompson and his ilk, because they have been instrumental in the dumbing down, the making cynical, the making apathetic, and the making anti-government our body politic to such an extent that the Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with Xxxx) was able, with the help of Putin's professional Saint Petersburg trolls, et al., to become our "President" in 2017.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 05:33:29 AM
And then there is Gov Connally Not reacting to the same bullet. The SBT should have been exposed as "IMPOSSIBLE" long ago, but even today we had an eggplant paraded around as POTUS. The News Media continues being nothing more than a propaganda arm.
Storing,
JFK's spinal column was nicked by the bullet, causing him to dramatically and instantaneously react.
Question: Was JBC's spinal column nicked?
Answer: No, it wasn't.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 30, 2025, 03:37:45 PM
The next time you hear about someone breaking ribs, breaking a wrist, and suffering a collapsed lung without reacting 1 iota, let me know. I'll get "Guinness Book Of World Records" on the horn.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 04:10:37 PM
The next time you hear about someone breaking ribs, breaking a wrist, and suffering a collapsed lung without reacting 1 iota, let me know. I'll get "Guinness Book Of World Records" on the horn.
Storing,
How long did it take for large-man Connally to puff out his cheeks or grimace or raise his right arm or (involuntarily) drop his shoulder?
Five minutes?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on May 30, 2025, 05:02:22 PM
And then there is Gov Connally Not reacting to the same bullet. The SBT should have been exposed as "IMPOSSIBLE" long ago. . . .
Yeah, it is interesting that WC apologists dismiss the fact that Gov. Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the shot, insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229 and that he chose Z234 as the moment of impact. He said this after carefully studying frames 224 through 238 under high magnification. Z234 makes perfect sense, because his right shoulder is pushed dramatically downward and he gets an obvious pained look on his face starting in Z238, just 0.25 seconds/250 milliseconds later, which is the standard human reaction time. Connally added that he had "no doubt" he was not hit before Z229. But WC apologists lamely argue that Connally was "mistaken." I mean, he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding.
WC apologists must also dismiss the clear evidence that Kennedy was hit long before Z224. The most fiercely debated finding of the HSCA PEP was the finding that JFK was hit at or just before Z190, because everyone knew that Oswald's view of JFK would have been obstructed by the intervening the oak tree at that point, but the evidence is so strong that the substantial majority supported the finding. One item of evidence that convinced most of the PEP members on this point is that there is a strong blur episode from Z189-197.
The Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis confirms what WC critics have been pointing out for years.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 05:47:54 PM
Yeah, it is interesting that WC apologists dismiss the fact that Gov. Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the shot, insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229 and that he chose Z234 as the moment of impact. He said this after carefully studying frames 224 through 238 under high magnification. Z234 makes perfect sense, because his right shoulder is pushed dramatically downward and he gets an obvious pained look on his face starting in Z238, just 0.25 seconds/250 milliseconds later, which is the standard human reaction time. Connally added that he had "no doubt" he was not hit before Z229. But WC apologists lamely argue that Connally was "mistaken." I mean, he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding.
WC apologists must also dismiss the clear evidence that Kennedy was hit long before Z224. The most fiercely debated finding of the HSCA PEP was the finding that JFK was hit at or just before Z190, because everyone knew that Oswald's view of JFK would have been obstructed by the intervening the oak tree at that point, but the evidence is so strong that the substantial majority supported the finding. One item of evidence that convinced most of the PEP members on this point is that there is a strong blur episode from Z189-197.
The Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis confirms what WC critics have been pointing out for years.
Dear Mike,
You're full of high-fructose beans and KGB* disinformation whether you realize it or not.
*Today's SVR and FSB
-- Tom
PS Knott Labs did its "analysis" based on the graphics from a video game.
Didn't you know that?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on May 30, 2025, 11:44:22 PM
Yeah, it is interesting that WC apologists dismiss the fact that Gov. Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the shot, insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229 and that he chose Z234 as the moment of impact. He said this after carefully studying frames 224 through 238 under high magnification. Z234 makes perfect sense, because his right shoulder is pushed dramatically downward and he gets an obvious pained look on his face starting in Z238, just 0.25 seconds/250 milliseconds later, which is the standard human reaction time. Connally added that he had "no doubt" he was not hit before Z229. But WC apologists lamely argue that Connally was "mistaken." I mean, he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding.
WC apologists must also dismiss the clear evidence that Kennedy was hit long before Z224. The most fiercely debated finding of the HSCA PEP was the finding that JFK was hit at or just before Z190, because everyone knew that Oswald's view of JFK would have been obstructed by the intervening the oak tree at that point, but the evidence is so strong that the substantial majority supported the finding. One item of evidence that convinced most of the PEP members on this point is that there is a strong blur episode from Z189-197.
The Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis confirms what WC critics have been pointing out for years.
Connally added that he had "no doubt" he was not hit before Z229. But WC apologists lamely argue that Connally was "mistaken." I mean, he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding.
It is much easier for you, even necessary to believe all the people around JBC were wrong. Nelly, Jackie, SA Kellerman, DPD Hargis, DPD Chaney, SA Hill, all the two shot witnesses, all the witnesses stating they heard two shots then the car accelerated followed by a shot, all the witnesses that the second two shots were so close together they sounded like one shot, on and on and on, all are stating JBC was wounded by the first shot. Maybe it is time to come to grips with it. The only one who was stating he was not hit by the first shot was JBC himself, instead stating he never heard the shot that struck him.
The Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis confirms what WC critics have been pointing out for years.
So wrong, Knotts Lab managed to prove SBT was the only answer.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 30, 2025, 11:48:37 PM
Connally added that he had "no doubt" he was not hit before Z229. But WC apologists lamely argue that Connally was "mistaken." I mean, he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding.
It is much easier for you, even necessary to believe all the people around JBC were wrong. Nelly, Jackie, SA Kellerman, DPD Hargis, DPD Chaney, SA Hill, all the two shot witnesses, all the witnesses stating they heard two shots then the car accelerated followed by a shot, all the witnesses that the second two shots were so close together they sounded like one shot, on and on and on, all are stating JBC was wounded by the first shot. Maybe it is time to come to grips with it. The only one who was stating he was not hit by the first shot was JBC himself, instead stating he never heard the shot that struck him.
The Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis confirms what WC critics have been pointing out for years.
So wrong, Knotts Lab managed to prove SBT was the only answer.
Nessan,
1) Connally eventually admitted that he and JFK may have been hit by the same bullet.
2) Knott Labs "analysis" was based on graphics from a video game.
3) D'oh
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Mitch Todd on May 31, 2025, 01:15:16 AM
Yeah, it is interesting that WC apologists dismiss the fact that Gov. Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the shot, insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229 and that he chose Z234 as the moment of impact. He said this after carefully studying frames 224 through 238 under high magnification. Z234 makes perfect sense, because his right shoulder is pushed dramatically downward and he gets an obvious pained look on his face starting in Z238, just 0.25 seconds/250 milliseconds later, which is the standard human reaction time. Connally added that he had "no doubt" he was not hit before Z229. But WC apologists lamely argue that Connally was "mistaken." I mean, he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding.
WC apologists must also dismiss the clear evidence that Kennedy was hit long before Z224. The most fiercely debated finding of the HSCA PEP was the finding that JFK was hit at or just before Z190, because everyone knew that Oswald's view of JFK would have been obstructed by the intervening the oak tree at that point, but the evidence is so strong that the substantial majority supported the finding. One item of evidence that convinced most of the PEP members on this point is that there is a strong blur episode from Z189-197.
The Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis confirms what WC critics have been pointing out for years.
MG: Yeah, it is interesting that WC apologists dismiss the fact that Gov. Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the shot, insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229 and that he chose Z234 as the moment of impact.
It's not a good idea to assume that anyone's memories are split-second accurate. Especially after the memorable experience in question is immediately followed by thoracotomy-grade anesthesia. If you think his recollection is sharp enough to pinpoint a specific frame, there's the bridge in Brooklyn that's for sale, cheap....
MG: The most fiercely debated finding of the HSCA PEP was the finding that JFK was hit at or just before Z190, because everyone knew that Oswald's view of JFK would have been obstructed by the intervening the oak tree at that point, but the evidence is so strong that the substantial majority supported the finding. One item of evidence that convinced most of the PEP members on this point is that there is a strong blur episode from Z189-197.
As far as I've ever been able to determine, no one has ever studied how to determine exactly when someone has been shot simply by observing their physical reactions. The PEP was little more than guessing here, and their conclusions accordingly carry no weight.
The Knott Labs SBT trajectory analysis confirms what WC critics have been pointing out for years.
The Knott Lab effort was a second-rate amateurish hogwash. If you watch their promo video you'll find that they have the shot coming from the wrong side of the SN window, and have the bullet impacting JFK at his centerline. The bigger problem is the lack of rigor. A proper trajectory study would acknowledge the uncertainties in the location of the wounds, the differences between the exact size and shape of the models to the real life bodies, any deflection of the bullet after impact, etc. This would result in a series of trajectory cones, not a straight line. Of the various attempts to create a trajectory analysis for the shooting, the best is still the Failure Analysis one from the early 90's. I wouldn't give you $0.02 for the Knott Labs version.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on May 31, 2025, 02:33:21 AM
Never fails that LN'ers are forced to disregard eyewitness testimony. They always claim it is "unreliable". This is why they have No Idea who testified as to what. Not being familiar with eyewitness testimony is the Biggest Blackest Hole in those that support the LN stuff. Personally, I think they are scared of what they will find in the eyewitness testimony. Testimony like DPD Motorcycle Officer Hargis saying he ran up to that "little wall", "brick wall", and there is absolutely NO Image Evidence to support this. Or SA Lem Johns claiming he jumped out of the LBJ SS Car and was running down Elm St toward the JFK Limo when the Kill Shot was fired. SA Johns claimed he was left standing in Elm St. Yet, there is absolutely No Image Evidence to support any this. None! This is why the LN Believers know very little about JFK Assassination eyewitness testimony. It proves the JFK Assassination fantasy they continue clinging to is Wrong!
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on May 31, 2025, 02:56:22 AM
Never fails that LN'ers are forced to disregard eyewitness testimony. They always claim it is "unreliable". This is why they have No Idea who testified as to what. Not being familiar with eyewitness testimony is the Biggest Blackest Hole in those that support the LN stuff. Personally, I think they are scared of what they will find in the eyewitness testimony. Testimony like DPD Motorcycle Officer Hargis saying he ran up to that "little wall", "brick wall", and there is absolutely NO Image Evidence to support this. Or SA Lem Johns claiming he jumped out of the LBJ SS Car and was running down Elm St toward the JFK Limo when the Kill Shot was fired. SA Johns claimed he was left standing in Elm St. Yet, there is absolutely No Image Evidence to support any this. None! This is why the LN Believers know very little about JFK Assassination eyewitness testimony. It proves the JFK Assassination fantasy they continue clinging to is Wrong!
Storing,
Do you disagree with any of the eyewitnesses?
If so, do you think they made honest mistakes, or do you think they were "Deep State" agents?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on May 31, 2025, 04:22:42 PM
1) Connally eventually admitted that he and JFK may have been hit by the same bullet.
May have?
Yes, may have. In other words, he was no longer sure that he and JFK were struck by different bullets. Is that okay with you?
His memory only improved with age to the point he did not know. Sure, why not. It is much better to believe the other witnesses.
2) Knott Labs "analysis" was based on graphics from a video game.
And?
And so most, if not all, of the measurements and angles in Knott's "analysis" are off.
A lot of the video is messed up, but the first shot passes through JFK and strikes JBC in the back. While the graphic is moving JBC laterally the trajectory lines up perfectly at one point. That is wrong?
The HSCA had an estimated variation in the trajectory analysis.
3) D'oh
Meaning?
Meaning you're either incredibly ignorant or you're intentionally spreading disinformation.
The beginning of a new language? Apparently, one only you know the exact meaning. Possible perversion of the Russian language no doubt.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 01, 2025, 05:37:34 AM
1) Connally eventually admitted that he and JFK may have been hit by the same bullet.
May have?
Yes, may have. In other words, he was no longer sure that he and JFK were struck by different bullets. Is that okay with you?
His memory only improved with age to the point he did not know. Sure, why not. It is much better to believe the other witnesses.
If he had truly been hit by a different bullet, how could he possibly lose his memory and conviction of that no matter how "senile" he may have become later?
2) Knott Labs "analysis" was based on graphics from a video game.
And?
And so most, if not all, of the measurements and angles in Knott's "analysis" are off.
A lot of the video is messed up, but the first shot passes through JFK and strikes JBC in the back. While the graphic is moving JBC laterally the trajectory lines up perfectly at one point. That is wrong?
The HSCA had an estimated variation in the trajectory analysis.
Knott's "analysis" has Connally's jump-seat misplaced, doesn't have him turned far to his right when he was hit, and deceptively highlights the green trajectory line as it passes diagonally across JFB's back to make it look, optical-illusion-wise, as though the bullet struck even farther to the left than its wrong-for-the-reasons-mentioned-above analysis has it (i.e., off by only about three inches).
3) D'oh
Meaning?
Meaning you're either incredibly ignorant or you're intentionally spreading disinformation.
The beginning of a new language? Apparently, one only you know the exact meaning. Possible perversion of the Russian language no doubt.
How ironic, seeing how it is you who is wittingly or unwittingly spreading KGB*-approved disinformation, and it is I who believes former sharpshooting Marine radar operator Oswald was sent to Moscow by a KGB "mole" in CIA's mole-hunting Office of Security, not necessarily to be trained or programmed to be an assassin (although one does wonder if he really needed to spend a week in Botkinskaya Hospital -- including a few days in its psych ward -- after allegedly trying to kill himself), but to serve as an unwitting "dangle" in a planned-to-fail hunt for "Popov's U-2 Mole" in the wrong part of the CIA.
*Today's SVR and FSB
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on June 01, 2025, 08:17:01 AM
1) Connally eventually admitted that he and JFK may have been hit by the same bullet.
May have?
Yes, may have. In other words, he was no longer sure that he and JFK were struck by different bullets. Is that okay with you?
Memory improved with age to the point he did not know. Sure, why not.
If he had truly been hit by a different bullet, how could he possibly lose his memory and conviction of that no matter how "senile" he may have become later?
The belief in a conspiracy exists only because of an imaginary third shot and JBC’s belief he was hit by a separate bullet based on a time frame beyond the capabilities of the carcano.
JBC wasn’t hit by a separate shot according to all the witnesses around him.
2) Knott Labs "analysis" was based on graphics from a video game.
And?
And so most, if not all, of the measurements and angles in Knott's "analysis" are off.
A lot of the video is messed up, but the first shot passes through JFK and strikes JBC in the back. While the graphic is moving JBC laterally the trajectory lines up perfectly at one point. That is wrong?
The HSCA had an estimated variation in the trajectory analysis.
Knott's "analysis" has Connally's jump-seat misplaced, doesn't have him turned far to his right when he was hit, and deceptively highlights the green trajectory line as it passes diagonally across JFB's back to make it look, optical-illusion-wise, as though the bullet struck even farther to the left than its wrong-for-the-reasons-mentioned-above analysis has it (i.e., off by only about three inches).
You are preaching to the choir. The HSCA’s expert, Thomas Canning, testified that the only possible explanation for the wound in JBC’s back was the bullet that passed through JFK’s neck. In their own way Knotts Lab proved that.
3) D'oh
Meaning?
Meaning you're either incredibly ignorant or you're intentionally spreading disinformation.
The beginning of a new language? Apparently, one only you know the exact meaning. Possible perversion of the Russian language no doubt.
How ironic, seeing how it is you who is wittingly or unwittingly spreading KGB*-approved disinformation, and it is I who believes former sharpshooting Marine radar operator Oswald was sent to Moscow by a KGB "mole" in CIA's mole-hunting Office of Security, not necessarily to be trained or programmed to be an assassin (although one does wonder if he really needed to spend a week in Botkinskaya Hospital -- including a few days in its psych ward -- after allegedly trying to kill himself), but to serve as an unwitting "dangle" in a planned-to-fail hunt for "Popov's U-2 Mole" in the wrong part of the CIA.
*Today's SVR and FSB
No doubt at all that the shooter was LHO. Sounds like as good of a reason as any.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 01, 2025, 09:36:31 AM
1) Connally eventually admitted that he and JFK may have been hit by the same bullet.
May have?
Yes, may have. In other words, he was no longer sure that he and JFK were struck by different bullets. Is that okay with you?
Memory improved with age to the point he did not know. Sure, why not.
If he had truly been hit by a different bullet, how could he possibly lose his memory and conviction of that no matter how "senile" he may have become later?
The belief in a conspiracy exists only because of an imaginary third shot and JBC’s belief he was hit by a separate bullet based on a time frame beyond the capabilities of the Carcano. JBC wasn’t hit by a separate shot according to all the witnesses around him.
The belief in a conspiracy exists because 1) Dealey Plaza was an echo chamber, making it hard for the lackadaisical-then-startled witnesses to count the number / timing / duration of the shots, 2) The assassin who fired all three shots from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest and whose prints were found on the murder weapon (Oswald) took 10.2 seconds to fire them, more than enough time to fire the last two accurately, 3) the first shot, a steeply downward-angled one, missed everything and sounded "muffled" compared to the other two because the short-rifle's muzzle was completely inside the building when it was fired, 4) the bullet that wounded both JFK and JBC (CE-399) was strangely (i.e., no damage to the nose) and only moderately deformed because it struck only one hard bone (JBC's radial bone), and did so while travelling backwards at a greatly reduced velocity (see below), 5) JFK appears in the Zapruder film to have been stuck about half-a second before JBC only because the bullet nicked his spinal cord, causing his arms and hands to instantaneously react in a neuromuscular way, 6) The seeming contradiction between the non-fragmenting of CE-399 when it hit JBC’s radial bone versus the fragmenting of the third bullet when it hit JFK’s skull was due to the fact that CE-399, having already passed through JFK’s and JBC’s bodies, wasn’t going fast enough to fragment, whereas the headshot bullet was still going about 1800 feet-per-second when it stuck near the thickest part of JFK’s skull – the external occipital protuberance.
2) Knott Labs "analysis" was based on graphics from a video game.
And?
And so most, if not all, of the measurements and angles in Knott's "analysis" are off.
A lot of the video is messed up, but the first shot passes through JFK and strikes JBC in the back. While the graphic is moving JBC laterally the trajectory lines up perfectly at one point. That is wrong?
The HSCA had an estimated variation in the trajectory analysis.
Knott's "analysis" has Connally's jump-seat misplaced, doesn't have him turned far to his right when he was hit, and deceptively highlights the green trajectory line as it passes diagonally across JFB's back to make it look, optical-illusion-wise, as though the bullet struck even farther to the left than its wrong-for-the-reasons-mentioned-above analysis has it (i.e., off by only about three inches).
You are preaching to the choir. The HSCA’s expert, Thomas Canning, testified that the only possible explanation for the wound in JBC’s back was the bullet that passed through JFK’s neck. In their own way Knotts Lab proved that.
3) D'oh
Meaning?
Meaning you're either incredibly ignorant or you're intentionally spreading disinformation.
The beginning of a new language? Apparently, one only you know the exact meaning. Possible perversion of the Russian language no doubt.
How ironic, seeing how it is you who is wittingly or unwittingly spreading KGB*-approved disinformation, and it is I who believes former sharpshooting Marine radar operator Oswald was sent to Moscow by a KGB "mole" in CIA's mole-hunting Office of Security, not necessarily to be trained or programmed to be an assassin (although one does wonder if he really needed to spend a week in Botkinskaya Hospital -- including a few days in its psych ward -- after allegedly trying to kill himself), but to serve as an unwitting "dangle" in a planned-to-fail hunt for "Popov's U-2 Mole" in the wrong part of the CIA.
*Today's SVR and FSB
No doubt at all that the shooter was LHO. Sounds like as good of a reason as any.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on June 01, 2025, 04:03:18 PM
he belief in a conspiracy exists because 1) Dealey Plaza was an echo chamber, making it hard for the lackadaisical-then-startled witnesses to count the number / timing / duration of the shots, 2) The assassin who fired all three shots from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest and whose prints were found on the murder weapon (Oswald) took 10.2 seconds to fire them, more than enough time to fire the last two accurately, 3) the first shot, a steeply downward-angled one, missed everything and sounded "muffled" compared to the other two because the short-rifle's muzzle was completely inside the building when it was fired, 4) the bullet that wounded both JFK and JBC (CE-399) was strangely (i.e., no damage to the nose) and only moderately deformed because it struck only one hard bone (JBC's radial bone), and did so while travelling backwards at a greatly reduced velocity (see below), 5) JFK appears in the Zapruder film to have been stuck about half-a second before JBC only because the bullet nicked his spinal cord, causing his arms and hands to instantaneously react in a neuromuscular way, 6) The seeming contradiction between the non-fragmenting of CE-399 when it hit JBC’s radial bone versus the fragmenting of the third bullet when it hit JFK’s skull was due to the fact that CE-399, having already passed through JFK’s and JBC’s bodies, wasn’t going fast enough to fragment, whereas the headshot bullet was still going about 1800 feet-per-second when it stuck near the thickest part of JFK’s skull – the external occipital protuberance.
Media's influence was the number one contributor to the number of shots reported. Both the WC and the HSCA reference it in their conclusions, the HSCA sound analysis study also referenced medias influence.
Agree with it all except a first missed shot. Eyewitness statements all state JFK reacted to the first shot with the exception of Mary Woodward who places the first shot after Z207.
Forensic analysis and Josiah Thompson’s observation of the shells discovered in the SN indicate only two were fired in the rifle. The third was used as a snap cap for practicing finger control. As explained by Major Anderson, LHO would have been taught this method and trained to practice in this manner as part of his Marine Corp training.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 01, 2025, 05:48:24 PM
You Failed to mention having to move the physical position of the JFK Limo on Elm St for that 1st shot. That is a Huge Ask without Any Image Evidence to support it. We have people totally disregarding the story of Gordon Arnold because he is Not on any JFK Assassination Images. Yet, we are supposed to up and move the entire JFK Limo in order to make a 10+ second elapsed firing time work? Who's running this railroad?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 01, 2025, 07:51:38 PM
The belief in a conspiracy exists because 1) Dealey Plaza was an echo chamber, making it hard for the lackadaisical-then-startled witnesses to count the number / timing / duration of the shots, 2) The assassin who fired all three shots from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest and whose prints were found on the murder weapon (Oswald) took 10.2 seconds to fire them, more than enough time to fire the last two accurately, 3) the first shot, a steeply downward-angled one, missed everything and sounded "muffled" compared to the other two because the short-rifle's muzzle was completely inside the building when it was fired, 4) the bullet that wounded both JFK and JBC (CE-399) was strangely (i.e., no damage to the nose) and only moderately deformed because it struck only one hard bone (JBC's radial bone), and did so while travelling backwards at a greatly reduced velocity (see below), 5) JFK appears in the Zapruder film to have been stuck about half-a second before JBC only because the bullet nicked his spinal cord, causing his arms and hands to instantaneously react in a neuromuscular way, 6) The seeming contradiction between the non-fragmenting of CE-399 when it hit JBC’s radial bone versus the fragmenting of the third bullet when it hit JFK’s skull was due to the fact that CE-399, having already passed through JFK’s and JBC’s bodies, wasn’t going fast enough to fragment, whereas the headshot bullet was still going about 1800 feet-per-second when it stuck near the thickest part of JFK’s skull – the external occipital protuberance.
Media's influence was the number one contributor to the number of shots reported. Both the WC and the HSCA reference it in their conclusions, the HSCA sound analysis study also referenced medias influence.
Were there any witnesses who reported, before they were "contaminated" by the "mistaken" or "evil, evil conspiring" media, that they'd heard three shots? The HSCA's sound analysis study was found to be based on the false premise that the stuck-open microphone was in the motorcade. It wasn't.
Agree with it all except a first missed shot. Eyewitness statements all state JFK reacted to the first shot with the exception of Mary Woodward who places the first shot after Z207.
JFK's reactions (both involuntary and voluntary) to the sounds of the first, missing everything, shot were subtle, unremarkable, and therefore not noticed.
Forensic analysis and Josiah Thompson’s observation of the shells discovered in the SN indicate only two were fired in (sic) the rifle.
What forensic analysis? Two shots over Thompson's six seconds, or two shots over Roselle's and Scearce's 10.2 seconds?
The third [shell] was used as a snap cap for practicing finger control. As explained by Major Anderson, LHO would have been taught this method and trained to practice in this manner as part of his Marine Corp training.
Did Oswald practice "finger control" (click-click . . . snap, click-click . . . snap . . .) while he was waiting for the limo to appear on Houston Street?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 01, 2025, 08:07:59 PM
You Failed to mention having to move the physical position of the JFK Limo on Elm St for that 1st shot. That is a Huge Ask without Any Image Evidence to support it. We have people totally disregarding the story of Gordon Arnold because he is Not on any JFK Assassination Images. Yet, we are supposed to up and move the entire JFK Limo in order to make a 10+ second elapsed firing time work? Who's running this railroad?
Storing,
How does "moving" the limo to Elm Street for the first (missing-everything) shot "make a 10+ second elapsed firing time work"?
How long would the elapsed firing time have been if Oswald had taken his first (missing everything) shot at JFK while the limo was still on Houston Street?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 01, 2025, 08:17:43 PM
The JFK Limo was Not moved "to" Elm St, it's position was moved inside Elm St.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 01, 2025, 08:56:45 PM
The JFK Limo was Not moved "to" Elm St, its position was moved inside Elm St.
Are you referring to where the limo was at hypothetical "Z-107" (per Holland) or to where it was at hypothetical "Z-124" (per Roselle and Scearce)?
Regardless, don't you trust Tina Towner's memory in "The Lost Bullet" regarding where the limo was, both down-the-street and horizontally, when she heard the first-of-three shots?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 02, 2025, 01:46:11 AM
Tina Towner was 13 yrs old on 11/22/63. And almost 50 yrs later under the encouragement of Max Holland, she's now fixing the position of the JFK Limo based on street signs that were Not inside Dealey Plaza that day? Towner is very confusing and/or confused. And while considering "The Lost Bullet" 11/22/63 eye witnesses, how about Amos Euins? He demonstrated just how closely shots #2 and #3 were fired. POW/POW! There is No Way that bolt action Carcano could come close to matching the Amos Euins shot timing.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 02, 2025, 02:26:36 AM
Tina Towner was 13 yrs old on 11/22/63. And almost 50 yrs later under the encouragement of Max Holland, she's now fixing the position of the JFK Limo based on street signs that were Not inside Dealey Plaza that day? Towner is very confusing and/or confused. And while considering "The Lost Bullet" 11/22/63 eye witnesses, how about Amos Euins? He demonstrated just how closely shots #2 and #3 were fired. POW/POW! There is No Way that bolt action Carcano could come close to matching the Amos Euins shot timing.
Storing,
Do you really think (sic) the moving of the street signs over the years had a bearing on the accuracy of Tina's memory that the limo was nearer the left side of Elm Street than the reenactment driver had it while they were filming "JFK: The Lost Bullet"? What evidence do you have that Max Holland "encouraged" her to say that, anyway? When you watch "JFK: The Lost Bullet," it looks as though she encourages him to believe that.
Euins' mistakenly saying, "POW . . . . POW-POW" is easy to understand given the fact that the first (missing-everything) shot was muffled (because the muzzle of Oswald's short-rifle was completely inside the building), and Dealey Plaza is a veritable echo chamber.
Regardless, do you really think (sic) Euin's was saying the first and second shots were only one or two seconds apart?
LOL!
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on June 02, 2025, 02:51:00 AM
Media's influence was the number one contributor to the number of shots reported
Were there any witnesses who reported, before they were "contaminated" by the "mistaken" or "evil, evil conspiring" media, that they'd heard three shots?
You tell me. Three shots were broadcast around the world within 3 to 4 minutes of the assassination by Walter Cronkite. Two shots were reported by Don Pardo within 10 minutes after the assassination but largely ignored.
The HSCA's sound analysis study was found to be based on the false premise that the stuck-open microphone was in the motorcade. It wasn't.
No it wasn’t.
---------------
Agree with it all except a first missed shot. Eyewitness statements all state JFK reacted to the first shot with the exception of Mary Woodward who places the first shot after Z207.
Forensic analysis and Josiah Thompson’s observation of the shells discovered in the SN indicate only two were fired in the rifle. The third was used as a snap cap for practicing finger control. As explained by Major Anderson, LHO would have been taught this method and trained to practice in this manner as part of his Marine Corp training.
JFK's reactions (both involuntary and voluntary) to the sounds of the first, missing everything, shot were subtle, unremarkable, and therefore not noticed.
Then how do you know there was a shot? No one else in Dealey Plaza heard it either.
Forensic analysis and Josiah Thompson’s observation of the shells discovered in the SN indicate only two were fired in (sic) the rifle.
What forensic analysis? Two shots over Thompson's six seconds, or two shots over Roselle's and Scearce's 10.2 seconds?
You prefer to have a shot that never happened be part of the narrative as to accept the alternative that LHO only fired twice?
The indentation on the side of the shells missing only from CE 543 but present on all the other shells including CE 141, the unfired cartridge, proves there were only two shots fired by LHO.
-------------------
The third [shell] was used as a snap cap for practicing finger control. As explained by Major Anderson, LHO would have been taught this method and trained to practice in this manner as part of his Marine Corp training.
Did Oswald practice "finger control" (click-click . . . snap, click-click . . . snap . . .) while he was waiting for the limo to appear on Houston Street.
Maybe. A point of interest. The carcano has a cock on opening action. To cock the rifle, just raise and lower the bolt handle to cock it.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 02, 2025, 03:23:07 AM
Jack "Two Shots" Nessan: Media's influence was the number one contributor to the number of shots reported.
Me: Were there any witnesses who reported, before they were "contaminated" by the "mistaken" or "evil, evil conspiring" media, that they'd heard three shots?
Jack "Two Shots" Nessan: You tell me. Three shots were broadcast around the world within 3 to 4 minutes of the assassination by Walter Cronkite. Two shots were reported by Don Pardo within 10 minutes after the assassination but largely ignored.
Me: Don Pardo's first broadcast was at 12:45:03 EST:
“In downtown Dallas. President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left downtown Dallas. Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and grabbed Mr. Kennedy. She cried, ‘Oh, no.’ The motorcade sped on. A photographer said he saw blood on the president’s head. It was believed [by the United Press photographer who told me] two shots were fired.”
Me: Any idea who that United Press photographer was? Any idea who "misled" Cronkite into believing three shots were fired?
. . . . . . .
Edit:
The following transcript is NBC-TV coverage of the Assassination of President John. F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963. The first two NBC bulletins feature the voice of Don Pardo and are supplied by Plil Gries, who recorded them on his audio tape recorder at home. After the two Pardo bulletins is audio (also recorded at home by Phil Gries) of the first 3 minutes and 53 seconds of NBC’s “lost” footage, which was before NBC began to record that day’s coverage.
. . . . . . .
Don Pardo Bulletin # 1 (at 12:45:03 PM, Central Standard Time): “In downtown Dallas. President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left downtown Dallas. Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and grabbed Mr. Kennedy. She cried, ‘Oh, no.’ The motorcade sped on. A photographer said he saw blood on the president’s head. It was believed two shots were fired.”
Don Pardo Bulletin # 2: “President Kennedy and Governor John Connally of Texas have been cut down by assassins’ bullets in downtown Dallas. We’ll repeat that. President Kennedy and Governor John Connally of Texas have been cut down by assassins’ bullets in downtown Dallas. They were riding in an open automobile when the shots were fired. The President, his limp body cradled in the arms of his wife, Jacqueline, had (sic) been rushed to Parkland Hospital. Clint Hill, a Secret Service agent assigned to Mrs. Kennedy, said, “He’s dead,” as the President was lifted from the rear of a White House touring car, the famous bubbletop from Washington. He was rushed to an emergency room in the hospital. Other White House officials were in doubt as the corridors of the hospital erupted in pandemonium. The incident occurred just east of the triple underpass facing a park in downtown Dallas. Reporters about five car lengths behind the Chief Executive were behind the autocade. Stay tuned to your NBC station for the later news.
. . . . . . . .
Reporting by Chet Huntley and his colleagues: “ … John Connally. Reporters on the scene say that bullet wounds in Governor Connally’s chest were clearly visible. It is reported that President Kennedy was seen lying face down on the floor of his car, his wife holding him, Again, we have no word on the President’s condition. One AP [Associated Press] man on the scene says that blood was visible on the President’s head. He has been taken to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, Texas. The motorcade took about five minutes to get to the hospital. It was during that trip that reporters saw the President lying flat on the face in his car. One reporter asked one of the presidential assistants, Kenneth O’Donnell, if the President were dead. The man gave no answer. There is no reason to believe the President is dead, there is no word on his condition, neither is there any word on who made the attack. That is all we have from Dallas, Texas, at the present time. There has been a gun attack on the President of the United States. It’s quite a scramble communications in this country are at this moment. We will relay to you all the information that we have. We shall establish circuits between New York and Dallas at any moment, but in the interim we shall relay to you from here the information that we have. It goes like this: President Kennedy has been shot in Dallas, Texas. He was shot as his motorcade left the downtown part of the city. Mrs. Kennedy leaped up, grabbed the president and cried, “Oh, no,” and the motorcade sped on. An Associated Press photographer reports that he saw blood on the president’s head. The Associated Press photographer said he heard two shots, but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. Here is more information. Kennedy apparently has been shot in the head. He fell face down in the back seat of his car. Blood was on his head. Mrs. Kennedy cried, “Oh, no,” and tried to hold up his head. Governor Connally remained half-seated, slumped to the left. There was blood on his face and forehead. The president and the Governor were rushed to Parkland Hospital near the Dallas Trade Mart where Kennedy was to have made a speech. There’s also this, Chet. In Washington, the White House says it has nothing beyond what we have now on the shooting. This in spite of the tremendous communications that is always maintained between the President and the White House. At 12:50 Central Standard Time, acting White House [Press] Secretary, Malcolm Killduff, was asked whether the president were dead, [and] he said, “I have no word now.” A few minutes later, Rear Admiral George Berkeley of the Navy – he’s the White House Physician – rushed into the hospital in Dallas, Parkland Hospital, and he headed for the emergency room where the President and Texas Governor John Connally were taken. Each has been wounded. That is all we really know. There is no word on the condition of either man. There is no indication that either is dead; no report on how serious the wounds may be. Chet and Bill, if I may step in for just a moment to let you know NBC will continue its coverage of this throughout until we are fully abreast of all the facts. We have a mobile unit on its way to the White House now. As you just reported, the White House doesn’t seem to have any more information than the reporters on the scene, and we are also establishing contact with our Robert McNeil who’s with the President’s party in Dallas, and we expect to be getting a report from him very shortly. So, as you can imagine, extensive efforts are being made to get our men dispatched to the right place at the right time and get as much information on it as we can. Thank you, Frank, we shall all stand by, then, and just relay the information as it . . . “
THE END
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on June 02, 2025, 06:14:38 AM
Jack "Two Shots" Nessan: Media's influence was the number one contributor to the number of shots reported.
Me: Were there any witnesses who reported, before they were "contaminated" by the "mistaken" or "evil, evil conspiring" media, that they'd heard three shots?
Jack "Two Shots" Nessan: You tell me. Three shots were broadcast around the world within 3 to 4 minutes of the assassination by Walter Cronkite. Two shots were reported by Don Pardo within 10 minutes after the assassination but largely ignored.
Me: Don Pardo's first broadcast was at 12:45:03 EST:
“In downtown Dallas. President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left downtown Dallas. Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and grabbed Mr. Kennedy. She cried, ‘Oh, no.’ The motorcade sped on. A photographer said he saw blood on the president’s head. It was believed [by the United Press photographer who told me] two shots were fired.”
Me: Any idea who that United Press photographer was? Any idea who "misled" Cronkite into believing three shots were fired?
. . . . . . .
Edit:
The following transcript is NBC-TV coverage of the Assassination of President John. F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963. The first two NBC bulletins feature the voice of Don Pardo and are supplied by Plil Gries, who recorded them on his audio tape recorder at home. After the two Pardo bulletins is audio (also recorded at home by Phil Gries) of the first 3 minutes and 53 seconds of NBC’s “lost” footage, which was before NBC began to record that day’s coverage.
. . . . . . .
Don Pardo Bulletin # 1 (at 12:45:03 PM, Central Standard Time): “In downtown Dallas. President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left downtown Dallas. Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and grabbed Mr. Kennedy. She cried, ‘Oh, no.’ The motorcade sped on. A photographer said he saw blood on the president’s head. It was believed two shots were fired.”
Don Pardo Bulletin # 2: “President Kennedy and Governor John Connally of Texas have been cut down by assassins’ bullets in downtown Dallas. We’ll repeat that. President Kennedy and Governor John Connally of Texas have been cut down by assassins’ bullets in downtown Dallas. They were riding in an open automobile when the shots were fired. The President, his limp body cradled in the arms of his wife, Jacqueline, had (sic) been rushed to Parkland Hospital. Clint Hill, a Secret Service agent assigned to Mrs. Kennedy, said, “He’s dead,” as the President was lifted from the rear of a White House touring car, the famous bubbletop from Washington. He was rushed to an emergency room in the hospital. Other White House officials were in doubt as the corridors of the hospital erupted in pandemonium. The incident occurred just east of the triple underpass facing a park in downtown Dallas. Reporters about five car lengths behind the Chief Executive were behind the autocade. Stay tuned to your NBC station for the later news.
. . . . . . . .
Reporting by Chet Huntley and his colleagues: “ … John Connally. Reporters on the scene say that bullet wounds in Governor Connally’s chest were clearly visible. It is reported that President Kennedy was seen lying face down on the floor of his car, his wife holding him, Again, we have no word on the President’s condition. One AP [Associated Press] man on the scene says that blood was visible on the President’s head. He has been taken to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, Texas. The motorcade took about five minutes to get to the hospital. It was during that trip that reporters saw the President lying flat on the face in his car. One reporter asked one of the presidential assistants, Kenneth O’Donnell, if the President were dead. The man gave no answer. There is no reason to believe the President is dead, there is no word on his condition, neither is there any word on who made the attack. That is all we have from Dallas, Texas, at the present time. There has been a gun attack on the President of the United States. It’s quite a scramble communications in this country are at this moment. We will relay to you all the information that we have. We shall establish circuits between New York and Dallas at any moment, but in the interim we shall relay to you from here the information that we have. It goes like this: President Kennedy has been shot in Dallas, Texas. He was shot as his motorcade left the downtown part of the city. Mrs. Kennedy leaped up, grabbed the president and cried, “Oh, no,” and the motorcade sped on. An Associated Press photographer reports that he saw blood on the president’s head. The Associated Press photographer said he heard two shots, but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. Here is more information. Kennedy apparently has been shot in the head. He fell face down in the back seat of his car. Blood was on his head. Mrs. Kennedy cried, “Oh, no,” and tried to hold up his head. Governor Connally remained half-seated, slumped to the left. There was blood on his face and forehead. The president and the Governor were rushed to Parkland Hospital near the Dallas Trade Mart where Kennedy was to have made a speech. There’s also this, Chet. In Washington, the White House says it has nothing beyond what we have now on the shooting. This in spite of the tremendous communications that is always maintained between the President and the White House. At 12:50 Central Standard Time, acting White House [Press] Secretary, Malcolm Killduff, was asked whether the president were dead, [and] he said, “I have no word now.” A few minutes later, Rear Admiral George Berkeley of the Navy – he’s the White House Physician – rushed into the hospital in Dallas, Parkland Hospital, and he headed for the emergency room where the President and Texas Governor John Connally were taken. Each has been wounded. That is all we really know. There is no word on the condition of either man. There is no indication that either is dead; no report on how serious the wounds may be. Chet and Bill, if I may step in for just a moment to let you know NBC will continue its coverage of this throughout until we are fully abreast of all the facts. We have a mobile unit on its way to the White House now. As you just reported, the White House doesn’t seem to have any more information than the reporters on the scene, and we are also establishing contact with our Robert McNeil who’s with the President’s party in Dallas, and we expect to be getting a report from him very shortly. So, as you can imagine, extensive efforts are being made to get our men dispatched to the right place at the right time and get as much information on it as we can. Thank you, Frank, we shall all stand by, then, and just relay the information as it . . . “
THE END
Me: Were there any witnesses who reported, before they were "contaminated" by the "mistaken" or "evil, evil conspiring" media, that they'd heard three shots?
Didn't you describe Dealey Plaza as an echo chamber. Now you are questioning what people heard?
"The belief in a conspiracy exists because 1) Dealey Plaza was an echo chamber, making it hard for the lackadaisical-then-startled witnesses to count the number / timing / duration of the shots,"
You tell me. Who heard what and when. The WC or the HSCA never concerned themselves with it so why would I. If you feel it is important, go ahead and pursue it.
The WC and the HSCA and the HSCA Sound Analysis report all state medias influence as a problem in the number of shots reported by the witnesses.
WC Conclusion: "The eyewitness testimony may be subconsciously colored by the extensive publicity given the conclusion that three shots were fired"
HSCA Sound Analysis Conclusion: The buildings around the Plaza caused strong reverberations, or echoes, that followed the initial sound by from 0 .5 to 1 .5 sec . While these reflections caused no confusion to our listeners, who were prepared and expected to hear them, they may well have inflated the number of shots reported by the suprised witnesses during the assassination . HSCA Earwitness Analysis Report, pgs 135-137
HSCA Conclusion: "The committee believed that the witnesses memories and testimony on the number, direction, and timing of the shots may have been substantially influenced by the intervening publicity concerning the events of November 22 1963" HSCA Final Report- pg 87
---------
Me: Don Pardo's first broadcast was at 12:45:03 EST:
“In downtown Dallas. President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left downtown Dallas. Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and grabbed Mr. Kennedy. She cried, ‘Oh, no.’ The motorcade sped on. A photographer said he saw blood on the president’s head. It was believed [by the United Press photographer who told me] two shots were fired.”
Me: Any idea who that United Press photographer was? Any idea who "misled" Cronkite into believing three shots were fired?
James Altgens, UPI Photograher, the only Eyewitness reporter in Dealey Plaza. He was standing within feet of the car during the assassination. Took the photo at Z256 of JBC and JFK in the car reacting to having been hit by the first bullet. He walked back to his office and sent the news bulletin.
Merriman Smith, earwitness in a press car on Houston, fifth car back. He won a Pulitzer prize for his reporting that day. The news flash went out over the airways before JFK reached Parkland. Smith sent it from the car he was riding in. The guy who started it all is your three shot witness.
No eyewitness in Dealey Plaza ever mentions an early missed shot. Mary Woodward places the first shot after JFK passes her location, and he turns forward. Placing that at Z207+
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 02, 2025, 07:36:38 AM
So Euins could be mistaken but Tina Towner could Not? How silly is that? Plus, Euins was older than Towner on 11/22/63. POW/POW!
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 02, 2025, 10:12:33 AM
So Euins could be mistaken but Tina Towner could Not? How silly is that? Plus, Euins was older than Towner on 11/22/63.
Storing,
So, so, so, so Tina Towner could be mistaken, but Amos Euins could not? How silly is that? Plus, girls mature faster than boys.
Do you really think Euins wanted to convey the idea that the first and second shots were only a second or two apart?
Do you think the first and second shots were only a second or two apart?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 02, 2025, 01:56:47 PM
You well know that Euins POW/POW was in relation to shots 2 and 3. Stop trying to set traps and wasting your time and mine. Everybody knows all about having, "one in the barrel". SA Hickey did.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 02, 2025, 02:12:05 PM
You well know that Euins POW/POW was in relation to shots 2 and 3.
Storing,
If Euins could grossly exaggerate how short the interval was between the first and second shot, why couldn't he grossly exaggerate how short the interval was between the second and third shots?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 02, 2025, 02:51:58 PM
Anybody can "exaggerate" anything. So what? Euins was very demonstrative with his verbal POW...............POW/POW as he judo chopped down on that pedestal. Personally, I believe that the real value of Euins is the route he used to arrive inside the railroad yard where Officer Harkness found him and loaded him onto the back of his DPD 3 Wheel Motorcycle. Euins walked somewhere along the Elm St Ext. This puts him within a stones throw of those "Wide Open", (DPD Officer Luke Mooney), Huge Gates. Euins might have been there at a time when Shooter(s)/Spotter(s) were exiting the TSBD and passing through those Gates, spilling onto the Elm St Ext, and mixing into the crowd. Euins would have been there at a point in time AFTER DPD Officer Smith ran by the "Wide Open" Huge Gates on the Couch Film. What Euins possibly saw as he walked to the railroad yard is his real value. It would be hard for Euins to miss seeing those Huge Gates with those Very Bright Placards on each gate. My best guess is each Huge Gate was roughly 8' by 12'. ( The 3 Tramps Photo).
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 02, 2025, 03:04:40 PM
Anybody can "exaggerate" anything. So what? Euins was very demonstrative with his verbal POW...............POW/POW as he judo chopped down on that pedestal. Personally, I believe that the real value of Euins is the route he used to arrive inside the railroad yard where Officer Harkness found him and loaded him onto the back of his DPD 3 Wheel Motorcycle. Euins walked somewhere along the Elm St Ext. This puts him within a stones throw of those "Wide Open", (DPD Officer Luke Mooney), Huge Gates. Euins might have been there at a time when Shooter(s)/Spotter(s) were exiting the TSBD and were spilling onto the Elm St Ext and mixing into the crowd. Euins would have been there at a point in time AFTER DPD Officer Smith ran by the "Wide Open" Huge Gates on the Couch Film. What Euins possibly saw as he walked to the railroad yard is his real value. It would be hard for Euins to miss seeing those Huge Gates with those Very Bright Placards on each gate. My best guess is each Huge Gate was roughly 8' by 12'.
Storing,
My guess is that you've been zombified by sixty-six years of KGB*-encouraged and/or created disinformation (including Jim Garrison's On the Trail of the Assassins, Jim Marrs' Crossfire: The Plot that Killed Kennedy, and Comrade Oliver Stone's self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") movie, "JFK," not to mention the Sun Tzu-like "active measures" and mole-based strategic deception counterintelligence operations it started waging against us and our NATO allies in 1959.
BTW, you never did answer my question:
How many bad guys and really, really bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the escaping, and the all-important cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
*Today's SVR and FSB
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 03, 2025, 01:35:31 AM
Euins might have been there [on the Elm Street Extension] at a time when Shooter(s)/Spotter(s) were exiting the TSBD and passing through those Gates, spilling onto the Elm St Ext, and mixing into the crowd.
Storing,
WHAT shooters and/or spotters?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 03, 2025, 02:51:32 PM
Take the time to read Officer Luke Mooney's WC Testimony. Then get back to me. I feel like I am taking advantage of you.
Storing,
When are you going to finally answer my questions?
1) How many bad guys and really, really bad gals to you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the escaping, and the all-important cover up? Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
2) Does Vladimir Putin pay you, or do you do it for free?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on June 04, 2025, 01:49:35 PM
Storing, When are you going to finally answer my questions?
1) How many bad guys and really, really bad gals to you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the escaping, and the all-important cover up? Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
Take the time to read Officer Luke Mooney's WC Testimony. Then get back to me. I feel like I am taking advantage of you.
Asking these questions over and over appears to be Graves' way to avoid discussing evidence he can't explain or doesn't understand.
It's as if we were discussing the case of the 778 Uganda cult members who died in 2000. The incident was originally thought to be a case of mass suicide but was later ruled to be a case of mass murder. Graves' canned response to the clear evidence that they were murdered would be "How many really bad guys were involved in the planning of these hundreds of murders and staging them to look like suicides by fire and poisoning?" The victims were originally thought to have died in a mass suicide by fire and poisoning, but it was later discovered that over 400 victims were strangled, stabbed, and then buried in nearby pits. But Graves would ignore this evidence and keep implying that the cult members could not have been murdered because the crime would have required an impossibly large conspiracy.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 04, 2025, 06:07:46 PM
Asking these questions over and over appears to be Graves' way to avoid discussing evidence he can't explain or doesn't understand.
It's as if we were discussing the case of the 778 Uganda cult members who died in 2000. The incident was originally thought to be a case of mass suicide but was later ruled to be a case of mass murder. Graves' canned response to the clear evidence that they were murdered would be "How many really bad guys were involved in the planning of these hundreds of murders and staging them to look like suicides by fire and poisoning?" The victims were originally thought to have died in a mass suicide by fire and poisoning, but it was later discovered that over 400 victims were strangled, stabbed, and then buried in nearby pits. But Graves would ignore this evidence and keep implying that the cult members could not have been murdered because the crime would have required an impossibly large conspiracy.
Would it have necessitated the altering of photographs, X-rays, and films?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on June 04, 2025, 06:41:33 PM
Mr. Griffith says there are disinformation agents right now covering up for the CIA's (or whoever he believes today did it) assassination. Yes, today. And that the media is being controlled or used to cover the conspiracy up as a continuation of the Operation Mockingbir*d program. That's the CIA. Again, all of this being done right now.
He has multiple generations of Americans involved in his conspiracy, one taking place over more than half a century. Agents doing this in 1963 and 1973 and 1983 and 1993 and on and on. But he insists it was only a small group of people who pulled off the conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK. The planning, the execution, the coverup. The films that were taken, the photos that were altered, the autopsy material that was falsified. How did they steal this material? Who? And then altered it? The same people? Then all of this was covered up. Just 20 or 30 people did all of this. Over decades?
Who is ordering these agents to do this? Who is making these decisions? Why wouldn't these agents expose this? Or say no? Or something? We are talking about two or three generations of people. Any original masterminds behind the assassination are long gone. They were replaced. And these replacements are covering up what happened? Why? For what reason? How does this go?
In what world can this happen?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 04, 2025, 07:23:53 PM
How long was Daddy Joe Kennedy/Organized Crime stealing the 1960 Election kept on the QT? How many people do you think were involved in that? Why do you think the military was running around forcing anyone remotely connected to them to sign a NDA after the assassination? This "stuff" Does happen and one way or the other, people Do keep their yap shut.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 04, 2025, 11:49:24 PM
How long was Daddy Joe Kennedy/Organized Crime stealing the 1960 Election kept on the QT? How many people do you think were involved in that? Why do you think the military was running around forcing anyone remotely connected to them to sign a NDA after the assassination? This "stuff" Does happen and one way or the other, people Do keep their yap shut.
Storing,
I sure wish you would.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on June 06, 2025, 01:27:41 PM
Mr. Griffith says there are disinformation agents right now covering up for the CIA's (or whoever he believes today did it) assassination. Yes, today. And that the media is being controlled or used to cover the conspiracy up as a continuation of the Operation Mockingbir*d program. That's the CIA. Again, all of this being done right now.
Say what???!!! You must have me confused with someone else. I seriously doubt that Operation Mockingbird is still active.
He has multiple generations of Americans involved in his conspiracy, one taking place over more than half a century. Agents doing this in 1963 and 1973 and 1983 and 1993 and on and on. But he insists it was only a small group of people who pulled off the conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK. The planning, the execution, the coverup. The films that were taken, the photos that were altered, the autopsy material that was falsified. How did they steal this material? Who? And then altered it? The same people? Then all of this was covered up. Just 20 or 30 people did all of this. Over decades?
A giant strawman that bears no resemblance to the cover-up that I've posited. Most of the suppression and alteration was done very soon after the assassination, not over the course of decades.
Who is ordering these agents to do this? Who is making these decisions? Why wouldn't these agents expose this? Or say no? Or something?
Some of them did! I take it you have never read Larry Hancock's book Someone Would Have Talked. However, most of them just followed orders and didn't think anything of it because they weren't aware of the implications and reasons behind what they had done, just like in many other documented cases of conspiracy and cover-up. Heard of Iran-Contra? Most of the government personnel and contractors who were involved in Iran-Contra had no idea they were facilitating an illegal arms-for-hostages plot.
We are talking about two or three generations of people. Any original masterminds behind the assassination are long gone. They were replaced. And these replacements are covering up what happened? Why? For what reason? How does this go? In what world can this happen?
Certainly not in your fantasy world. You conjure up a giant strawman scenario and then proceed from there. But you never try to explain the hard scientific evidence that proves the autopsy x-rays were altered, that proves the autopsy report was falsified, that proves that the ammo that hit JFK's head could not have been FMJ ammo, that proves that the SBT is fiction, that proves that the brain in the autopsy brain photos could not be JFK's brain, that proves the 6.5 mm object was ghosted onto the AP x-ray, etc., etc. Autopsy skull x-rays do not alter themselves. Brains do not go missing by themselves. Autopsy reports don't go through four drafts by themselves. FMJ bullets do not magically deposit fragments on the outer table of the skull when they strike the skull, and those fragments don't magically move around by themselves so that they're not even at the point of impact. Fragment trails do not disappear by themselves. Fragment trails don't fabricate their own non-existence. Ghosted images made to look like bullet fragments don't magically appear by themselves. Autopsy skull x-rays don't magically acquire a ghosted image made to look like a bullet fragment by themselves.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 07, 2025, 10:47:38 AM
You conjure up a giant strawman scenario and then proceed from there. But you never try to explain the hard scientific evidence that proves the autopsy x-rays were altered, that proves the autopsy report was falsified, that proves that the ammo that hit JFK's head could not have been FMJ ammo, that proves that the SBT is fiction, that proves that the brain in the autopsy brain photos could not be JFK's brain, that proves the 6.5 mm object was ghosted onto the AP x-ray, etc., etc. Autopsy skull x-rays do not alter themselves. Brains do not go missing by themselves. Autopsy reports don't go through four drafts by themselves. FMJ bullets do not magically deposit fragments on the outer table of the skull when they strike the skull, and those fragments don't magically move around by themselves so that they're not even at the point of impact. Fragment trails do not disappear by themselves. Fragment trails don't fabricate their own non-existence. Ghosted images made to look like bullet fragments don't magically appear by themselves. Autopsy skull x-rays don't magically acquire a ghosted image made to look like a bullet fragment by themselves.
What's your "proof" that the autopsy X-rays were altered?
What's your "proof" that the autopsy report was falsified?
What's your "proof" that the Single Bullet Hypothesis is a fiction?
Plus:
1) How do you explain the Backyard Photos which show Oswald holding the Carcano that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD?
2) How do you explain Oswald's leaving his wedding ring at Mrs. Paine's house that morning?
3) How do you explain Buell Wesley Frazier's and Linnie Mae Randle's seeing Oswald carry a long package that morning?
4) How do you explain Oswald's palm print and fingerprints on the Carcano?
5) How do you explain the three shells found on the Sniper's Nest floor that had marks from Oswald's Carcano?
6) How do you explain the fact that two of them were close together under the window, but the third one was off far to the shooter's right?
7) How do you explain the fact that most of the witnesses heard three shots that came from the general direction of the TSBD?
8 ) How do you explain the fact that the first shot missed everything?
9) How do you explain JBC's distinctly hearing a rifle shot before he was hit?
10) How do you explain the first shot's sounding differently than the second and the third shot to many of the witnesses?
11) How do you explain the elliptical wound in JBC's back?
12) How do you explain the nature of the wound to JBC's wrist?
13) How do you explain the fact that CE-399, which had the Carcano's marks on it, was so strangely deformed and had no damage to its nose?
14) How do you explain the puffing-outward of JBC's jacket in Z-223 and the flapping of his lapel in Z-224?
15) How do you explain JFK's reacting "so quickly" compared to JBC's reacting "so slowly"?
16) How do you explain Howard Brennan's and Amos Euins' seeing a man fire from the Sniper's Nest window?
17) How do you explain JFK's head's going forward and down about 2.25 inches between Z-312 and Z-313?
18) How do you explain the Carcano's ballistics marks on the two large bullet fragments found in the limo?
19) How did a bullet fired from The Grassy Knoll cause JFK's head to go back and to his left but not wound Jackie or damage the interior of the limo behind her?
20) How do you explain the fact that even the crummy Knotts Lab analysis showed that the bullet that struck JFK in the back had a downward trajectory?
21) How do you explain Oswald's not hanging around the TSBD to be included in the informal roll call?
22) How do you explain Oswald's getting out of Whaley's taxi about three blocks past his rooming house?
23) How you explain Oswald's prints on the paper bag?
24) How do you explain Oswald's prints on two of the four functional boxes in the Sniper's Nest?
25) How many bad guys and really, really bad gals do you think were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the escaping, and the all-important cover-up? Fifty? More than fifty?
26) My favorite: Whether or not the KGB trained or programmed Oswald to be an assassin, how do you explain the fact that all of the incoming non-CIA (e.g., State, Navy) cables on his defection were routed to probable KGB mole Bruce Leonard Solie's office in the mole-hunting Office of Security instead of where they normally would have gone -- the Soviet Russia Division -- and why did they all disappear into a "black hole" there for at least six weeks -- with some of them not reappearing until after the assassination?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2025, 05:46:32 PM
So You want proof that the, "Single Bullet HYPOTHESIS is a Fiction"? You got the "burden of proof" Backward.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on June 07, 2025, 08:18:12 PM
Do you really want to challenge there being a "third shot"? Do you have an issue with the "3 Hulls" on the floor of the sniper's nest?
Not even going to try and prove there was a third shot? Pretending to be a squid and trying to ink the water to get away? Three shells do not mean anything at all.
How about explain the rationale to your sudden change of conspiracies. You are a huge proponent of the Knotts Lab fiasco because it suggests two shooters with one trajectory from outer space and a bullet that goes through JFK and then disappears. Now you are a proponent of all three shots having been taken from the SN and forget the Knotts Lab debacle, because there were three shell casings found there? Seriously, can you track a thought from one sentence to the next?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on June 09, 2025, 05:18:12 PM
Not even going to try and prove there was a third shot? Pretending to be a squid and trying to ink the water to get away? Three shells do not mean anything at all.
How about explain the rationale to your sudden change of conspiracies. You are a huge proponent of the Knotts Lab fiasco because it suggests two shooters with one trajectory from outer space and a bullet that goes through JFK and then disappears. Now you are a proponent of all three shots having been taken from the SN and forget the Knotts Lab debacle, because there were three shell casings found there? Seriously, can you track a thought from one sentence to the next?
I guess his grassy knoll/fence shooter was thrown under the conspiracy bus? Gordon Arnold and all? The rear exit wound witnesses? Gonna' need a bigger bus eventually.
It's a conspiracy cafeteria where conspiracy believers take one of that and one of those and maybe a couple of those over there and create their conspiracy meal. It's all at odds with one another, contradictory and illogical. But it doesn't have to make sense; it just has to fit into whatever conspiracy du jour they are having that day.
Rube Goldberg scheme, conspiracy cafeteria..whatever analogy you want to use. They just grab stuff and run with it. It doesn't matter whether it contradicts what they said yesterday.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on June 09, 2025, 05:35:35 PM
I guess his grassy knoll/fence shooter was thrown under the conspiracy bus? Gordon Arnold and all? The rear exit wound witnesses? Gonna' need a bigger bus eventually.
It's a conspiracy cafeteria where conspiracy believers take one of that and one of those and maybe a couple of those over there and create their conspiracy meal. It's all at odds with one another, contradictory and illogical. But it doesn't have to make sense; it just has to fit into whatever conspiracy du jour they are having that day.
Rube Goldberg scheme, conspiracy cafeteria..whatever analogy you want to use. They just grab stuff and run with it. It doesn't matter whether it contradicts what they said yesterday.
Good analysis. This is an excellent description of their thinking. A third grader can unravel their logic. You would think they would be embarrassed by it but must not be because it just goes from one goofy theory to another without pause or thought.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on June 09, 2025, 05:57:47 PM
Not even going to try and prove there was a third shot? Pretending to be a squid and trying to ink the water to get away? Three shells do not mean anything at all.
How about explain the rationale to your sudden change of conspiracies. You are a huge proponent of the Knotts Lab fiasco because it suggests two shooters with one trajectory from outer space and a bullet that goes through JFK and then disappears. Now you are a proponent of all three shots having been taken from the SN and forget the Knotts Lab debacle, because there were three shell casings found there? Seriously, can you track a thought from one sentence to the next?
I find it impossible to take you seriously. I don't where or how you formed some of these assumptions about my views. I also can't believe that anyone in 2025 is claiming there were only two shots, given everything we now know about missed shots and extra bullets in Dealey Plaza and in the limo.
As for your erroneous description of the Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, this makes it especially hard for me to feel inclined to waste time responding to you. The Knott Lab analysis is the most thorough, data-based, and comprehensive SBT analysis ever done. It dwarfs all previous analyses. If the Knott Lab analysis had confirmed the SBT, you guys would be joyfully embracing it and noting that Knott Lab has vast experience and credentials in digital forensic reconstruction, that the analysis was based on millions of data points to form a digital duplicate of Dealey Plaza, and that it used a wide variety of photographic evidence in conjunction with the laser scan of Dealey Plaza. But, since the Knott Lab analysis destroys the SBT, you guys lamely seek to dismiss it, even while you accept the pathetic and contradictory trajectory analyses done by the WC, Thomas Canning, Todd Vaughan, and Dale Myers.
Finally, I'll just note that you're not even trying to address the dramatic jolting forward of JFK in Z226-232, the second most dramatic reaction in the entire Zapruder film, because it destroys the lapel-flip SBT.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on June 09, 2025, 06:14:44 PM
I find it impossible to take you seriously. I don't where or how you formed some of these assumptions about my views. I also can't believe that anyone in 2025 is claiming there were only two shots, given everything we now know about missed shots and extra bullets in Dealey Plaza and in the limo.
As for your erroneous description of the Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, this makes it especially hard for me to feel inclined to waste time responding to you. The Knott Lab analysis is the most thorough, data-based, and comprehensive SBT analysis ever done. It dwarfs all previous analyses. If the Knott Lab analysis had confirmed the SBT, you guys would be joyfully embracing it and noting that Knott Lab has vast experience and credentials in digital forensic reconstruction, that the analysis was based on millions of data points to form a digital duplicate of Dealey Plaza, and that it used a wide variety of photographic evidence in conjunction with the laser scan of Dealey Plaza. But, since the Knott Lab analysis destroys the SBT, you guys lamely seek to dismiss it, even while you accept the pathetic and contradictory trajectory analyses done by the WC, Thomas Canning, Todd Vaughan, and Dale Myers.
Finally, I'll just note that you're not even trying to address the dramatic jolting forward of JFK in Z226-232, the second most dramatic reaction in the entire Zapruder film, because it destroys the lapel-flip SBT.
He just may be a disinformation agent.
What type of reasonably intelligent adult American believes that the assassination involved "just 20 to 30 people" but that it's all been covered up for decades, the news media has been controlled to suppress what happened, and that disinformation agents are right now actively sowing confusion? Just 20 to 30 people have done all of this?
But you take Doug Horne seriously? JFK's wound were altered pre-autopsy? Really? At some point you need to have someone tell you to touch grass. Because you are flat out confused as to what you believe.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jack Nessan on June 09, 2025, 06:31:53 PM
I find it impossible to take you seriously. I don't where or how you formed some of these assumptions about my views. I also can't believe that anyone in 2025 is claiming there were only two shots, given everything we now know about missed shots and extra bullets in Dealey Plaza and in the limo.
As for your erroneous description of the Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, this makes it especially hard for me to feel inclined to waste time responding to you. The Knott Lab analysis is the most thorough, data-based, and comprehensive SBT analysis ever done. It dwarfs all previous analyses. If the Knott Lab analysis had confirmed the SBT, you guys would be joyfully embracing it and noting that Knott Lab has vast experience and credentials in digital forensic reconstruction, that the analysis was based on millions of data points to form a digital duplicate of Dealey Plaza, and that it used a wide variety of photographic evidence in conjunction with the laser scan of Dealey Plaza. But, since the Knott Lab analysis destroys the SBT, you guys lamely seek to dismiss it, even while you accept the pathetic and contradictory trajectory analyses done by the WC, Thomas Canning, Todd Vaughan, and Dale Myers.
Finally, I'll just note that you're not even trying to address the dramatic jolting forward of JFK in Z226-232, the second most dramatic reaction in the entire Zapruder film, because it destroys the lapel-flip SBT.
Ok, sounds like a cry for help. All you have to do is keep your opinion to yourself and explain the issues with the cartoon. Where is the bullet and where was the other shooter? Anything other than an explanation is just your opinion in whatever time period you choose to live.
the dramatic jolting forward of JFK in Z226-232,
Maybe JBC instead? The eyewitnesses gave a better and more accurate account. Jackie and Nellie disagree with you. They referenced JBC crying out Oh No No No after the first shot. Bill Newman's interview with Jay Watson, states "he could not tell which man was hit first" after the first shot. Maybe if they would have just known how knowledgeable you were after watching the Zapruder film, they would have changed their statements. The again probably not.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on June 10, 2025, 02:50:40 AM
Not even going to try and prove there was a third shot? Pretending to be a squid and trying to ink the water to get away? Three shells do not mean anything at all.
How about explain the rationale to your sudden change of conspiracies. You are a huge proponent of the Knotts Lab fiasco because it suggests two shooters with one trajectory from outer space and a bullet that goes through JFK and then disappears. Now you are a proponent of all three shots having been taken from the SN and forget the Knotts Lab debacle, because there were three shell casings found there? Seriously, can you track a thought from one sentence to the next?
You have the Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE finding WRONG. Your, "suggests 2 shooters", stuff is just that. Stuff. And your, "Three shells do not mean anything at all" is comical. A huge part of the WC Case is based on those 3 Hulls found inside the sniper's nest.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 10, 2025, 03:41:18 AM
Wrong. Knott Laboratory specializes in forensic reconstruction and engineering and is recognized as a leader in the field. Knott has worked on several high-profile cases, including the Firestone tire failures, the KC power plant explosion, the Miller Park crane collapse, and the Air France Flight 447 crash.
Do you just not understand the sophistication of the Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis? Do you understand that it dwarfs all previous analyses (WC, HSCA, Myers, Vaughan) because of the unprecedented amount of data and a laser-based digital replica of Dealey Plaza? Knott Laboratory conducted a high-definition laser scan of Dealey Plaza to generate a point cloud of nearly 2 million points per second to accurately measure point-to-point anywhere in the scene. Nothing like that had ever been done before.
From this point cloud, Knott's forensic engineers were able to match images from the scene and the Zapruder film using photogrammetry. They modeled the presidential limousine using multiple photographs and established the correct dimensions of the vehicle. Through a process called match moving, they synced frames from the Zapruder film into the digital recreation of the scene. The match moving enabled the alignment of the digital models of Kennedy and Connally in the vehicle to establish their positions frame by frame throughout the incident. That's why the Knott Lab analysis puts JFK and Connally in the correct horizontal positions in relation to each other and to the right side of the car's interior, whereas shoddy pro-SBT analyses have had to shift JFK and/or Connally markedly out of position.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Tom Graves on June 11, 2025, 12:55:29 AM
Wrong. Knott Laboratory specializes in forensic reconstruction and engineering and is recognized as a leader in the field. Knott has worked on several high-profile cases, including the Firestone tire failures, the KC power plant explosion, the Miller Park crane collapse, and the Air France Flight 447 crash.
Do you just not understand the sophistication of the Knott Lab SBT trajectory analysis? Do you understand that it dwarfs all previous analyses (WC, HSCA, Myers, Vaughan) because of the unprecedented amount of data and a laser-based digital replica of Dealey Plaza? Knott Laboratory conducted a high-definition laser scan of Dealey Plaza to generate a point cloud of nearly 2 million points per second to accurately measure point-to-point anywhere in the scene. Nothing like that had ever been done before.
From this point cloud, Knott's forensic engineers were able to match images from the scene and the Zapruder film using photogrammetry. They modeled the presidential limousine using multiple photographs and established the correct dimensions of the vehicle. Through a process called match moving, they synced frames from the Zapruder film into the digital recreation of the scene. The match moving enabled the alignment of the digital models of Kennedy and Connally in the vehicle to establish their positions frame by frame throughout the incident. That's why the Knott Lab analysis puts JFK and Connally in the correct horizontal positions in relation to each other and to the right side of the car's interior, whereas shoddy pro-SBT analyses have had to shift JFK and/or Connally markedly out of position.