JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on November 15, 2023, 02:54:50 PM
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Analysis of the Towner3 photo fence person shows strong correlation to Marilyn Sitzman as she was filmed by Abe Zapruder a short time before the assassination.
Robert Groden, when discussing the Jim Towner3 slide in his 1993 book "The Killing of a President", wrote the figure looking over the stockade fence at the right of the frame as the first man to reach the stockade fence, and stands on a cement pedestal (22.4” above the current pavement) of the pergola steps. For a short individual, this is a good guess. However, for the tallish Marilyn that puts her too high for overlay with the Towner3 slide. Two steps down puts her at a proper height, and position, for the Towner3 slide.
I modeled Marilyn Sitzman using her height of 6’0” with articulation to give a good overlay with the Towner3 image. She is placed on the second step at the south doorway of the west pergola. The rendering with blue lower legs indicates mid knee level below a partially transparent retaining wall. Along with Mr. and Mrs. Hester, and possibly Mr. Zapruder, she was in the vicinity of the shelter after the last shot struck the president.
Marilyn’s handbag size and style were approximated using Willis09 and Zapruder’s test images taken before the motorcade was in Dealey Plaza. She stands along with the Hesters at the south entrance of the east pergola. She is holding a black purse. When played as a short gif of that scene there a few frames of a visible purse zipper or trim. She is wearing a dress of a light tan or khaki color, similar to that of the figure in Towner3. Mayilyn wears a dark scarf on her head. In some the Zapruder frames the scarf falls perfectly on her back, while other views show the southern windblown scarf on her shoulders. The figure in Towner3 is mostly in shadow, with only a small patch of sunlit khaki colored cloth below the waist.
There are a number of characteristics common to the Towner3 figure and Marilyn Sitzman.
01 Black or dark purse
02 Zipper or trim along the ends of the purse
03 Purse straps that are now resolved in a recent Towner3 enhancement
04 Short sleeves
05 Khaki upper and lower body clothing
06 Black or dark head covering
07 Possible southern windblown scarf now on her right shoulder
08 A 6’0” 3D model on the second step overlays with the Towner3 figure
09 Marilyn Sitzman at or in the shelter post assassination is only mere feet from these steps
Towner3
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_2015-009-0004.jpg
Towner3 vs/ Sitzman Purse Strap and Scarf
(https://i.imgur.com/OMpCEJk.jpg)
Towner3 Sitzman 2 Views Retaining Wall Transparent Blue Lower Legs
(https://i.imgur.com/zglKN7x.gif)
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Analysis of the Towner3 photo fence person shows strong correlation to Marilyn Sitzman as she was filmed by Abe Zapruder a short time before the assassination.
Robert Groden, when discussing the Jim Towner3 slide in his 1993 book "The Killing of a President", wrote the figure looking over the stockade fence at the right of the frame as the first man to reach the stockade fence, and stands on a cement pedestal (22.4” above the current pavement) of the pergola steps. For a short individual, this is a good guess. However, for the tallish Marilyn that puts her too high for overlay with the Towner3 slide. Two steps down puts her at a proper height, and position, for the Towner3 slide.
I modeled Marilyn Sitzman using her height of 6’0” with articulation to give a good overlay with the Towner3 image. She is placed on the second step at the south doorway of the west pergola. The rendering with blue lower legs indicates mid knee level below a partially transparent retaining wall. Along with Mr. and Mrs. Hester, and possibly Mr. Zapruder, she was in the vicinity of the shelter after the last shot struck the president.
Marilyn’s handbag size and style were approximated using Willis09 and Zapruder’s test images taken before the motorcade was in Dealey Plaza. She stands along with the Hesters at the south entrance of the east pergola. She is holding a black purse. When played as a short gif of that scene there a few frames of a visible purse zipper or trim. She is wearing a dress of a light tan or khaki color, similar to that of the figure in Towner3. Mayilyn wears a dark scarf on her head. In some the Zapruder frames the scarf falls perfectly on her back, while other views show the southern windblown scarf on her shoulders. The figure in Towner3 is mostly in shadow, with only a small patch of sunlit khaki colored cloth below the waist.
There are a number of characteristics common to the Towner3 figure and Marilyn Sitzman.
01 Black or dark purse
02 Zipper or trim along the ends of the purse
03 Purse straps that are now resolved in a recent Towner3 enhancement
04 Short sleeves
05 Khaki upper and lower body clothing
06 Black or dark head covering
07 Possible southern windblown scarf now on her right shoulder
08 A 6’0” 3D model on the second step overlays with the Towner3 figure
09 Marilyn Sitzman at or in the shelter post assassination is only mere feet from these steps
Towner3
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_2015-009-0004.jpg
Towner3 vs/ Sitzman Purse Strap and Scarf
(https://i.imgur.com/OMpCEJk.jpg)
Towner3 Sitzman 2 Views Retaining Wall Transparent Blue Lower Legs
(https://i.imgur.com/zglKN7x.gif)
Hi James, You see the guy sitting on the pedestal in the Bell film. Could he be your man? To me it looks like a man and not a woman. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_32.gif)
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Analysis of the Towner3 photo fence person shows strong correlation to Marilyn Sitzman as she was filmed by Abe Zapruder a short time before the assassination.
Robert Groden, when discussing the Jim Towner3 slide in his 1993 book "The Killing of a President", wrote the figure looking over the stockade fence at the right of the frame as the first man to reach the stockade fence, and stands on a cement pedestal (22.4” above the current pavement) of the pergola steps. For a short individual, this is a good guess. However, for the tallish Marilyn that puts her too high for overlay with the Towner3 slide. Two steps down puts her at a proper height, and position, for the Towner3 slide.
I modeled Marilyn Sitzman using her height of 6’0” with articulation to give a good overlay with the Towner3 image. She is placed on the second step at the south doorway of the west pergola. The rendering with blue lower legs indicates mid knee level below a partially transparent retaining wall. Along with Mr. and Mrs. Hester, and possibly Mr. Zapruder, she was in the vicinity of the shelter after the last shot struck the president.
Marilyn’s handbag size and style were approximated using Willis09 and Zapruder’s test images taken before the motorcade was in Dealey Plaza. She stands along with the Hesters at the south entrance of the east pergola. She is holding a black purse. When played as a short gif of that scene there a few frames of a visible purse zipper or trim. She is wearing a dress of a light tan or khaki color, similar to that of the figure in Towner3. Mayilyn wears a dark scarf on her head. In some the Zapruder frames the scarf falls perfectly on her back, while other views show the southern windblown scarf on her shoulders. The figure in Towner3 is mostly in shadow, with only a small patch of sunlit khaki colored cloth below the waist.
There are a number of characteristics common to the Towner3 figure and Marilyn Sitzman.
01 Black or dark purse
02 Zipper or trim along the ends of the purse
03 Purse straps that are now resolved in a recent Towner3 enhancement
04 Short sleeves
05 Khaki upper and lower body clothing
06 Black or dark head covering
07 Possible southern windblown scarf now on her right shoulder
08 A 6’0” 3D model on the second step overlays with the Towner3 figure
09 Marilyn Sitzman at or in the shelter post assassination is only mere feet from these steps
Towner3
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_2015-009-0004.jpg
Towner3 vs/ Sitzman Purse Strap and Scarf
(https://i.imgur.com/OMpCEJk.jpg)
Towner3 Sitzman 2 Views Retaining Wall Transparent Blue Lower Legs
(https://i.imgur.com/zglKN7x.gif)
Several reasons this is Not Sitzman. For starters, just look at your own model. Sitzman is tall enough standing on that 2nd step to already see over the picket fence. Why would she then be BENDING OVER at the waist? Also, why would she have her left arm extended straight out/perpendicular to her body? Contorting Sitzman's body into this "Twister" position is not natural. And what happened to her scarf that runs down her back?
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Analysis of the Towner3 photo fence person shows strong correlation to Marilyn Sitzman as she was filmed by Abe Zapruder a short time before the assassination.
Robert Groden, when discussing the Jim Towner3 slide in his 1993 book "The Killing of a President", wrote the figure looking over the stockade fence at the right of the frame as the first man to reach the stockade fence, and stands on a cement pedestal (22.4” above the current pavement) of the pergola steps. For a short individual, this is a good guess. However, for the tallish Marilyn that puts her too high for overlay with the Towner3 slide. Two steps down puts her at a proper height, and position, for the Towner3 slide.
I modeled Marilyn Sitzman using her height of 6’0” with articulation to give a good overlay with the Towner3 image. She is placed on the second step at the south doorway of the west pergola. The rendering with blue lower legs indicates mid knee level below a partially transparent retaining wall. Along with Mr. and Mrs. Hester, and possibly Mr. Zapruder, she was in the vicinity of the shelter after the last shot struck the president.
Marilyn’s handbag size and style were approximated using Willis09 and Zapruder’s test images taken before the motorcade was in Dealey Plaza. She stands along with the Hesters at the south entrance of the east pergola. She is holding a black purse. When played as a short gif of that scene there a few frames of a visible purse zipper or trim. She is wearing a dress of a light tan or khaki color, similar to that of the figure in Towner3. Mayilyn wears a dark scarf on her head. In some the Zapruder frames the scarf falls perfectly on her back, while other views show the southern windblown scarf on her shoulders. The figure in Towner3 is mostly in shadow, with only a small patch of sunlit khaki colored cloth below the waist.
There are a number of characteristics common to the Towner3 figure and Marilyn Sitzman.
01 Black or dark purse
02 Zipper or trim along the ends of the purse
03 Purse straps that are now resolved in a recent Towner3 enhancement
04 Short sleeves
05 Khaki upper and lower body clothing
06 Black or dark head covering
07 Possible southern windblown scarf now on her right shoulder
08 A 6’0” 3D model on the second step overlays with the Towner3 figure
09 Marilyn Sitzman at or in the shelter post assassination is only mere feet from these steps
Towner3
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_2015-009-0004.jpg
Towner3 vs/ Sitzman Purse Strap and Scarf
(https://i.imgur.com/OMpCEJk.jpg)
Towner3 Sitzman 2 Views Retaining Wall Transparent Blue Lower Legs
(https://i.imgur.com/zglKN7x.gif)
Are there any other images taken around the same time frame as Towner3 was taken that shows Sitzman in that area (or elsewhere)? Also, in the extreme camera right hand side of Towner3 there is a man who, to me, resembles Zapruder standing inside the pergola. Has anyone positively identified that man? And what do either Sitzman or Zapruder say that they were doing during this time frame (in the immediate aftermath of the shooting)? Your identification seems very likely correct to me. Especially since Sitzman apparently cannot be positively placed elsewhere during this time period.
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Are there any other images taken around the same time frame as Towner3 was taken that shows Sitzman in that area (or elsewhere)? Also, in the extreme camera right hand side of Towner3 there is a man who, to me, resembles Zapruder standing inside the pergola. Has anyone positively identified that man? And what do either Sitzman or Zapruder say that they were doing during this time frame (in the immediate aftermath of the shooting)? Your identification seems very likely correct to me. Especially since Sitzman apparently cannot be positively placed elsewhere during this time period.
That portly suited guy inside the Shelter on Towner 3 is wearing a Long Tie. Zapruder was wearing a Bow Tie that day. And do Not forget that Towner 3 is almost always Cropped. The Cropping removes the Guy/Kid on the fence and the image of that Long Tie Man inside the Shelter.
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That portly suited guy inside the Shelter on Towner 3 is wearing a Long Tie. Zapruder was wearing a Bow Tie that day. And do Not forget that Towner 3 is almost always Cropped. The Cropping removes the Guy/Kid on the fence and the image of that Long Tie Man inside the Shelter.
I am not so sure that it isn’t a shoulder strap over his left shoulder with the camera case on his right. Did Zapruder have a camera case with a shoulder strap with him that day?
(https://i.vgy.me/M8qLzw.png)
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Hi James, You see the guy sitting on the pedestal in the Bell film. Could he be your man? To me it looks like a man and not a woman. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_32.gif)
H Michael. I don't have a man. Do you think I'm joking?
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Several reasons this is Not Sitzman. For starters, just look at your own model. Sitzman is tall enough standing on that 2nd step to already see over the picket fence. Why would she then be BENDING OVER at the waist? Also, why would she have her left arm extended straight out/perpendicular to her body? Contorting Sitzman's body into this "Twister" position is not natural. And what happened to her scarf that runs down her back?
Several reasons this is Not Sitzman. For starters, just look at your own model. Sitzman is tall enough standing on that 2nd step to already see over the picket fence. Why would she then be BENDING OVER at the waist?
She is not only able to look over the fence, but also beyond the pergola shelter into more of the parking area. The further she moves down the steps the more she could see in that area.
Also, why would she have her left arm extended straight out/perpendicular to her body?
Balance?
Contorting Sitzman's body into this "Twister" position is not natural.
There is nothing unnatural about that "Twister" slur.
And what happened to her scarf that runs down her back?
Over her right shoulder.
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I am not so sure that it isn’t a shoulder strap over his left shoulder with the camera case on his right. Did Zapruder have a camera case with a shoulder strap with him that day?
(https://i.vgy.me/M8qLzw.png)
You know how Sitzman towered over Zapruder. Now look at where that guy inside the shelter measures up to the 2nd level Shelter window. This man is much taller than Zapruder. Heavier too.
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Are there any other images taken around the same time frame as Towner3 was taken that shows Sitzman in that area (or elsewhere)? Also, in the extreme camera right hand side of Towner3 there is a man who, to me, resembles Zapruder standing inside the pergola. Has anyone positively identified that man? And what do either Sitzman or Zapruder say that they were doing during this time frame (in the immediate aftermath of the shooting)? Your identification seems very likely correct to me. Especially since Sitzman apparently cannot be positively placed elsewhere during this time period.
I don't know of any other photos or film that show that figure, or detail about what Sitzman did until she, along with Mrs. Hester, appear at or near the N Elm sidewalk in a Skaggs photo. Following that she is being interviewed (as filmed by Darnell) on the patio next to the Zapruder pedestal. Then she's seen around the depository doorway. Since the Towner3 slide shows just a fraction of a second anything else is a guess, I guess ;)
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Several reasons this is Not Sitzman. For starters, just look at your own model. Sitzman is tall enough standing on that 2nd step to already see over the picket fence. Why would she then be BENDING OVER at the waist?
She is not only able to look over the fence, but also beyond the pergola shelter into more of the parking area. The further she moves down the steps the more she could see in that area.
Also, why would she have her left arm extended straight out/perpendicular to her body?
Balance?
Contorting Sitzman's body into this "Twister" position is not natural.
There is nothing unnatural about that "Twister" slur.
And what happened to her scarf that runs down her back?
Over her right shoulder.
Really? You claim, "The further she moves DOWN the steps, the MORE she could see in that area". Not true. The further DOWN the steps anyone goes, the LOWER they are in relation to the picket fence = the LESS they can see. High ground permits a better view vs low ground.
What woman inna standing position has her entire arm extending outward at waist level? There are 3 Zapruder still frames showing Sitzman standing. In all of these still frames her arms are tight to her body. Including her arm with the purse draped over it. No arm is sticking out from her body.
If you're gonna turn that scarf, (for whatever reason), with the rear duck tail now over her (R) shoulder, then the KNOT that was under her chin has to now be over her (L) shoulder. That KNOT is not visible on the guy/kid looking over the picket fence.
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H Michael. I don't have a man. Do you think I'm joking?
Hi James, I hope that you are doing well! Sorry if I offended you! Like I said before, I simply think it is a man and I do not see him wearing Sitzman's black head scarf! It is my opinion. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
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Really? You claim, "The further she moves DOWN the steps, the MORE she could see in that area". Not true. The further DOWN the steps anyone goes, the LOWER they are in relation to the picket fence = the LESS they can see. High ground permits a better view vs low ground.
What woman inna standing position has her entire arm extending outward at waist level? There are 3 Zapruder still frames showing Sitzman standing. In all of these still frames her arms are tight to her body. Including her arm with the purse draped over it. No arm is sticking out from her body.
If you're gonna turn that scarf, (for whatever reason), with the rear duck tail now over her (R) shoulder, then the KNOT that was under her chin has to now be over her (L) shoulder. That KNOT is not visible on the guy/kid looking over the picket fence.
Yes, the further moving down the steps absolutely allows her to see more around the side of the pergola. I said nothing about peering over the fence.
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You know how Sitzman towered over Zapruder. Now look at where that guy inside the shelter measures up to the 2nd level Shelter window. This man is much taller than Zapruder. Heavier too.
James has her positioned two steps down from the level that the man is standing. That’s probably in the neighborhood of 16”. James could likely tell us exactly what the height difference is. Also, if the camera elevation is lower than the man’s head (again James can probably tell us this) and the man is not flat up against the back wall of the pergola, then using the back window level as a gauge would make the man appear taller than he actually is. Perspectives in photography can be misleading due to trying to depict 3D on a one-dimensional photograph.
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James has her positioned two steps down from the level that the man is standing. That’s probably in the neighborhood of 16”. James could likely tell us exactly what the height difference is. Also, if the camera elevation is lower than the man’s head (again James can probably tell us this) and the man is not flat up against the back wall of the pergola, then using the back window level as a gauge would make the man appear taller than he actually is. Perspectives in photography can be misleading due to trying to depict 3D on a one-dimensional photograph.
The cement pedestal is 22.4" above the pavement. Two steps down would be about 11".
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Yes, the further moving down the steps absolutely allows her to see more around the side of the pergola. I said nothing about peering over the fence.
The guy/kid on the fence is DIRECTLY FACING the fence. If that figure has a belt buckle, it would be dead center/facing the fence. The head/face is Not turned as if peering around anything. This image does Not show anything to indicate the head is turned as if peering left or right around the Pergola.
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I am not so sure that it isn’t a shoulder strap over his left shoulder with the camera case on his right. Did Zapruder have a camera case with a shoulder strap with him that day?
(https://i.vgy.me/M8qLzw.png)
If you are claiming this is a shoulder strap, are you also claiming the shoulder strap is wider than Zapruder's Bow Tie L-R? That this alleged strap completely covers an alleged Bow Tie? There is Zero trace of a Bow Tie at the neck level on Towner 3.
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The guy/kid on the fence is DIRECTLY FACING the fence. If that figure has a belt buckle, it would be dead center/facing the fence. The head/face is Not turned as if peering around anything. This image does Not show anything to indicate the head is turned as if peering left or right around the Pergola.
Okay, but where was she looking say a second or more before or after Towner took the shot? Toward her right, or why else assume that posture?
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If you are claiming this is a shoulder strap, are you also claiming the shoulder strap is wider than Zapruder's Bow Tie L-R? That this alleged strap completely covers an alleged Bow Tie? There is Zero trace of a Bow Tie at the neck level on Towner 3.
The clarity of that photo doesn’t allow us to see every detail. If it did, I believe we could see Zapruder’s face. And Mark Tyler identifies this figure (46) as Zapruder in his “Motorcade 63” animation. He shows Towner3 being taken at 12:31:47.
(https://i.vgy.me/4Uo4Up.png)
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James, based on Mark Tyler’s animation, and the movements he indicates, of Sitzman/Zapruder (46), it is looking to me more likely that you have identified Sitzman in Towner3. One of us should consider contacting Mark Tyler and make him aware of this finding. He might be interested in adding it to his animation…
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Several reasons this is Not Sitzman. For starters, just look at your own model. Sitzman is tall enough standing on that 2nd step to already see over the picket fence. Why would she then be BENDING OVER at the waist?
She is not only able to look over the fence, but also beyond the pergola shelter into more of the parking area. The further she moves down the steps the more she could see in that area.
Also, why would she have her left arm extended straight out/perpendicular to her body?
Balance?
Contorting Sitzman's body into this "Twister" position is not natural.
There is nothing unnatural about that "Twister" slur.
And what happened to her scarf that runs down her back?
Over her right shoulder.
For starters, "Twister" is a Milton Bradley GAME. Not sure where your mind went to arrive at the "slur" BS: And both the steps and the abutment are plenty Wide. Nobody should need to extend their arm(s) to maintain their balance while atop either of these.
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Okay, but where was she looking say a second or more before or after Towner took the shot? Toward her right, or why else assume that posture?
Exactly! There is no reason for a person to be in this physical position if they were standing on a step or the abutment. That person on Towner 3 is physically on/in contact with the picket fence.
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James, based on Mark Tyler’s animation, and the movements he indicates, of Sitzman/Zapruder (46), it is looking to me more likely that you have identified Sitzman in Towner3. One of us should consider contacting Mark Tyler and make him aware of this finding. He might be interested in adding it to his animation…
These are the egregious errors that permeate this case. Sitzman several times has said she got down off the Zapruder Perch and IMMEDIATELY went down the knoll and talked with a couple guys she thought were G Men. She then came back up the Knoll and talked with another man that DID ID himself as a G Man. You think she did all of this in UNDER 2 Minutes?? So just what are you gonna do? Believe her as to what she did, or blindly rubber stamp a diagram? The recklessly assigned time lines in this case continue dogging it. And this includes the rubber stamping of Motorcycle Officer Haygood as being the cop behind Officer Roger Craig on the Darnell Film. That ain't Haygood. His timeline as verified in his WC Testimony rules him out.
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These are the egregious errors that permeate this case. Sitzman several times has said she got down off the Zapruder Perch and IMMEDIATELY went down the knoll and talked with a couple guys she thought were G Men. She then came back up the Knoll and talked with another man that DID ID himself as a G Man. You think she did all of this in UNDER 2 Minutes?? So just what are you gonna do? Believe her as to what she did, or blindly rubber stamp a diagram? The recklessly assigned time lines in this case continue dogging it. And this includes the rubber stamping of Motorcycle Officer Haygood as being the cop behind Officer Roger Craig on the Darnell Film. That ain't Haygood. His timeline as verified in his WC Testimony rules him out.
No one is blindly accepting anything. The photographic record appears to me to show Sitzman where James indicates. The more likely scenario is that Sitzman was photographed in Towner3 as she began her journey down the knoll via the sidewalk and steps.
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No one is blindly accepting anything. The photographic record appears to me to show Sitzman where James indicates. The more likely scenario is that Sitzman was photographed in Towner3 as she began her journey down the knoll via the sidewalk and steps.
As I said, Sitzman said after getting down from the Zapruder Perch she IMMEDIATELY went down the knoll. The only way she could be standing on a step or abutment would mean she had to of instead: (1) Entered the shelter, (2) Exited the shelter via a different entrance (3) Walk down the cement walkway, and (4) Walk down The Steps while also passing Emmitt Hudson. Sitzman did Not mention doing ANY of this.
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As I said, Sitzman said after getting down from the Zapruder Perch she IMMEDIATELY went down the knoll. The only way she could be standing on a step or abutment would mean she had to of instead: (1) Entered the shelter, (2) Exited the shelter via a different entrance (3) Walk down the cement walkway, and (4) Walk down The Steps while also passing Emmitt Hudson. Sitzman did Not mention doing ANY of this.
Yeah, and the SS Agents in the Queen Mary all said they reacted IMMEDIATELY. But the photographic records indicate otherwise. And an apparently similar situation with Victoria Adams. When the physical evidence contradicts the witnesses memories, I tend to believe the physical evidence.
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Yeah, and the SS Agents in the Queen Mary all said they reacted IMMEDIATELY. But the photographic records indicate otherwise. And an apparently similar situation with Victoria Adams. When the physical evidence contradicts the witnesses memories, I tend to believe the physical evidence.
With regard to Sitzman, we are talking about a Sequence Of Events that YOU are claiming she made. Sitzman NEVER Mentioned doing any of the stuff that YOU are attaching to her. Sure, the internal "time clock" that a person has can be a legit issue, but their recollection of their PHYSICAL ACTS/MOVEMENT are an entirely different matter. And there is NO Photographic or Physical Evidence putting Sitzman on The Cement Walkway, or The Steps. NONE. This is ALL speculation by YOU
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James, based on Mark Tyler’s animation, and the movements he indicates, of Sitzman/Zapruder (46), it is looking to me more likely that you have identified Sitzman in Towner3. One of us should consider contacting Mark Tyler and make him aware of this finding. He might be interested in adding it to his animation…
If you contact Mark that is okay with me, I’d prefer that. I don’t have his database handy. Does he have times for any of the Skaggs photos? In particular #09, which has Sitzman and Mrs. Hester near Elm sidewalk at the pergola steps.
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With regard to Sitzman, we are talking about a Sequence Of Events that YOU are claiming she made. Sitzman NEVER Mentioned doing any of the stuff that YOU are attaching to her. Sure, the internal "time clock" that a person has can be a legit issue, but their recollection of their PHYSICAL ACTS/MOVEMENT are an entirely different matter. And there is NO Photographic or Physical Evidence putting Sitzman on The Cement Walkway, or The Steps. NONE. This is ALL speculation by YOU
Altgens photographed Sitzman and Zapruder as they left their perch and were entering the pergola: http://host.madison.com/tncms/asset/editorial/20e4e9eb-6b58-53d7-a9d3-b6c7f42cb620/ (http://host.madison.com/tncms/asset/editorial/20e4e9eb-6b58-53d7-a9d3-b6c7f42cb620/)
Towner3 shows the two of them just moments later. It appears that Sitzman has gotten curious and is looking back towards the parking area/TSBD. It stands to reason that Sitzman could have stayed on the concrete walkways and steps. Women, and their typical concerns about their shoes, makes this a logical theory. Speculation? Sure, but with reasons.
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If you contact Mark that is okay with me, I’d prefer that. I don’t have his database handy. Does he have times for any of the Skaggs photos? In particular #09, which has Sitzman and Mrs. Hester near Elm sidewalk at the pergola steps.
I will see if I can find the photo in question timed on Tyler’s animation. I did email Mark a while back and he responded cordially. I should be able to contact him again.
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Altgens photographed Sitzman and Zapruder as they left their perch and were entering the pergola: http://host.madison.com/tncms/asset/editorial/20e4e9eb-6b58-53d7-a9d3-b6c7f42cb620/ (http://host.madison.com/tncms/asset/editorial/20e4e9eb-6b58-53d7-a9d3-b6c7f42cb620/)
Towner3 shows the two of them just moments later. It appears that Sitzman has gotten curious and is looking back towards the parking area/TSBD. It stands to reason that Sitzman could have stayed on the concrete walkways and steps. Women, and their typical concerns about their shoes, makes this a logical theory. Speculation? Sure, but with reasons.
Also, if you look closely at the Altgens photo, you can see the camera case strap in the same position that I suggested earlier in this thread regarding the man in question in Towner3.
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This Bond pic shows Sitzman stood in the alcove immediately after the shooting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfcynLHK/Bond2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFMwRGZ7/Sitzman-Alcove1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Also in this pic we see the Hesters beginning to move towards the alcove area
[Note to Royell - this pic proves Sitzman didn't run down the Knoll immediately after the shooting. Thumb1:]
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If you contact Mark that is okay with me, I’d prefer that. I don’t have his database handy. Does he have times for any of the Skaggs photos? In particular #09, which has Sitzman and Mrs. Hester near Elm sidewalk at the pergola steps.
James, the Skaggs photo that I find in the Mark Tyler animation during the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Skaggs6. And Mark shows the time as 12:31:52.
(https://i.vgy.me/z9KHUr.png)
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James, the Skaggs photo that I find in the Mark Tyler animation during the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Skaggs6. And Mark shows the time as 12:31:52.
(https://i.vgy.me/z9KHUr.png)
Okay, his slide #7 seems to be taken in the general area of his #6. His #8 is a closeup of a MC officer with two other men somewhere in the parking area that I can’t figure out where exactly. Then #9 was taken around the top of the knoll steps. #9 has Sitzman in a well developed crowd. So, maybe around 2-3 minutes after his #6. I just don’t know how long it took the crowd to develop.
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Okay, his slide #7 seems to be taken in the general area of his #6. His #8 is a closeup of a MC officer with two other men somewhere in the parking area that I can’t figure out where exactly. Then #9 was taken around the top of the knoll steps. #9 has Sitzman in a well developed crowd. So, maybe around 2-3 minutes after his #6. I just don’t know how long it took the crowd to develop.
Here’s a link to the Skaggs9 photo at the Sixth Floor Museum online collection:
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22059/color-slide?ctx=5baa19f93203d15c4b45f41fce37ed6ca821a0ac&idx=8 (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22059/color-slide?ctx=5baa19f93203d15c4b45f41fce37ed6ca821a0ac&idx=8)
I will try to locate Sitzman and Hester in the photo. I certainly do believe that it was taken several minutes after the shooting. There’s an oral history available from SFM that might shed some light on this aspect.
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The guy in the alcove in Towner3 can only be Charles Hester.
In various photos he and his wife make their way over to the alcove where Sitzman and Zapruder are already stood.
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The guy in the alcove in Towner3 can only be Charles Hester.
In various photos he and his wife make their way over to the alcove where Sitzman and Zapruder are already stood.
There’s no reason to believe that it isn’t Zapruder. The camera strap is the giveaway clue.
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There’s no reason to believe that it isn’t Zapruder. The camera strap is the giveaway clue.
I see what you're saying, it looks more like a strap going across his body than a tie.
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There’s no reason to believe that it isn’t Zapruder. The camera strap is the giveaway clue.
Sitzman said she talked with a G-Man there at the top of the knoll. Could be him inside that shelter. Hester was wearing a Long Tie, but I think the gent we are seeing inside the Shelter is much stockier than the thin Mr. Hester. There's a reason Towner 3 has the guy/kid on the fence, and the image inside the Shelter Cropped Out 90% of the time. (1) That picket fence location was occupied during the assassination, and (2) there was supposed to be NO G-Men on foot inside Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.
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Here’s a link to the Skaggs9 photo at the Sixth Floor Museum online collection:
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22059/color-slide?ctx=5baa19f93203d15c4b45f41fce37ed6ca821a0ac&idx=8 (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22059/color-slide?ctx=5baa19f93203d15c4b45f41fce37ed6ca821a0ac&idx=8)
I will try to locate Sitzman and Hester in the photo. I certainly do believe that it was taken several minutes after the shooting. There’s an oral history available from SFM that might shed some light on this aspect.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL4kPtzC/Skaggs9a.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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I see what you're saying, it looks more like a strap going across his body than a tie.
Yes, to me it does. And in Altgen’s photo, the strap is clearly seen (from Zapruder’s rear) in that same position.
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Yes, to me it does. And in Altgen’s photo, the strap is clearly seen (from Zapruder’s rear) in that same position.
That strap on the Altgens Photo is running nowhere near the Throat/Adams Apple/Bow Tie area. It's a good visual aid demonstrating why it is referred to as a SHOULDER Strap.
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That strap on the Altgens Photo is running nowhere near the Throat/Adams Apple/Bow Tie area. It's a good visual aid demonstrating why it is referred to as a SHOULDER Strap.
LOL, and you can see all of that looking at Zapruder’s back? The strap is on his left shoulder near the neck. The case is on his right side. This means that the strap runs across the body just like is shown in Towner3.
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LOL, and you can see all of that looking at Zapruder’s back? The strap is on his left shoulder near the neck. The case is on his right side. This means that the strap runs across the body just like is shown in Towner3.
Exactly! Directly across Zapurder's CHEST. Not across his Adams Apple/Bow Tie/Throat. Take your time and closely examine the Altgens Photo.
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Exactly! Directly across Zapurder's CHEST. Not across his Adams Apple/Bow Tie/Throat. Take your time and closely examine the Altgens Photo.
It looks about right to me.
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This is perfect. It does not fall across the Adams Apple, Throat, or in Zapruder's case Bow Tie. This is why it is called a SHOULDER STRAP.
It most certainly does. And the lack of clarity in Towner3, along with the angle, makes the bow tie impossible to distinguish. The other giveaway clue is his hat.
(https://i.vgy.me/iC7oiJ.jpg)
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Okay, his slide #7 seems to be taken in the general area of his #6. His #8 is a closeup of a MC officer with two other men somewhere in the parking area that I can’t figure out where exactly. Then #9 was taken around the top of the knoll steps. #9 has Sitzman in a well developed crowd. So, maybe around 2-3 minutes after his #6. I just don’t know how long it took the crowd to develop.
I watched the video of the oral history by Skaggs and his wife. Sadly, he doesn’t even remember taking the #9 photo. So, he had nothing to say about it. But he did say that he didn’t stay very long in the parking area (where he took the #8 photo). Defining “very long” would be a wild guess (even if Skaggs himself had done so). I would think it took more than a few minutes for Skaggs to move from his positions at #6 & #7, across the plaza to the parking lot area, take #8 and then move to his position at #9. If that is officer Haygood in #9, perhaps his account might help with the timing.
I did glean some other interesting items from Skaggs’ account in his oral history interview. He said that he heard the first shot immediately after taking his photo of the camera car. He said that he took the photo, then turned around and was winding his camera when the first shot sounded. He thought it was within “just a few seconds” of that photo. I love it when we can tie the timing of the first shot to an event that can be pretty accurately timed. Mark Tyler’s animation shows Skaggs’ #5 being taken at 12:29:46.
(https://i.vgy.me/PSxV3w.png)
A “few seconds” later than this is just about where there are several other items that happen that suggest a first shot. These include a very short stop/start of the Hughes film (so short that it is thought that it had to be inadvertent), practically simultaneous head turns, etc of most of the limo occupants, huge jerk and stop/start of the Dorman film, Officer Bakers account of where he was, Victoria Adams’ account, Howard Brennan’s account, Tina Towner’s account and the end of her film, and quite a few other accounts.
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I watched the video of the oral history by Skaggs and his wife. Sadly, he doesn’t even remember taking the #9 photo. So, he had nothing to say about it. But he did say that he didn’t stay very long in the parking area (where he took the #8 photo). Defining “very long” would be a wild guess (even if Skaggs himself had done so). I would think it took more than a few minutes for Skaggs to move from his positions at #6 & #7, across the plaza to the parking lot area, take #8 and then move to his position at #9. If that is officer Haygood in #9, perhaps his account might help with the timing.
I did glean some other interesting items from Skaggs’ account in his oral history interview. He said that he heard the first shot immediately after taking his photo of the camera car. He said that he took the photo, then turned around and was winding his camera when the first shot sounded. He thought it was within “just a few seconds” of that photo. I love it when we can tie the timing of the first shot to an event that can be pretty accurately timed. Mark Tyler’s animation shows Skaggs’ #5 being taken at 12:29:46.
(https://i.vgy.me/PSxV3w.png)
A “few seconds” later than this is just about where there are several other items that happen that suggest a first shot. These include a very short stop/start of the Hughes film (so short that it is thought that it had to be inadvertent), practically simultaneous head turns, etc of most of the limo occupants, huge jerk and stop/start of the Dorman film, Officer Bakers account of where he was, Victoria Adams’ account, Howard Brennan’s account, Tina Towner’s account and the end of her film, and quite a few other accounts.
Thanks for bringing the Skaggs’ oral history to my attention; it only took me about 4 hours to watch the full 2hr video. ;) The photo #8 of the motorcycle officer closeup I thought years ago was taken at the bridge. I wondered then if Skaggs climbed the wall to get into the parking area. But sometime ago I realized that photo was taken somewhere in the rail/parking area. Skaggs then could have just used the knoll steps and got to the parking area that way. In the oral history, Gary Mack did ask if Skaggs scaled a wall to get to that #8 position-to which Skaggs answered no.
As far as Marilyn Sitzman’s time line for slide #9 there was no help, as you mentioned. Our next known view of Sitzman is in a Murray photo taken from somewhere near the south Elm storm drain before 12:41. Sitzman is on the patio just at the north side of her shared Zapruder pedestal while interviewed. Darnell is standing close by and appears to be listening to the interview, before or after he filmed the scene.
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Thanks for bringing the Skaggs’ oral history to my attention; it only took me about 4 hours to watch the full 2hr video. ;) The photo #8 of the motorcycle officer closeup I thought years ago was taken at the bridge. I wondered then if Skaggs climbed the wall to get into the parking area. But sometime ago I realized that photo was taken somewhere in the rail/parking area. Skaggs then could have just used the knoll steps and got to the parking area that way. In the oral history, Gary Mack did ask if Skaggs scaled a wall to get to that #8 position-to which Skaggs answered no.
As far as Marilyn Sitzman’s time line for slide #9 there was no help, as you mentioned. Our next known view of Sitzman is in a Murry photo taken from somewhere near the south Elm storm drain before 12:41. Sitzman is on the patio just at the north side of her shared Zapruder pedestal while interviewed. Darnell is standing close by and appears to be listening to the interview, before or after he filmed the scene.
Yes, it takes some patience to watch the interview. It was frustrating a few times when I felt Jay Skaggs was about to say something that was relevant to what we are wanting to know, he was interrupted. But it was interesting to learn more about the Skaggs, including that Jay was a sharpshooter in the army and commanded a heavy artillery outfit in WWII. And hearing about Mrs. Skaggs returning her girls to their locked-down High School near Tippit’s murder scene (apparently during the time of the manhunt) added some drama and intrigue to their stories. I am glad that both of us have seen the interview.
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If you are claiming this is a shoulder strap, are you also claiming the shoulder strap is wider than Zapruder's Bow Tie L-R? That this alleged strap completely covers an alleged Bow Tie? There is Zero trace of a Bow Tie at the neck level on Towner 3.
There's an Overhead Photo of Dealey Plaza posted on the "Bullet Mark On The Manhole......." thread. It seems to have been taken later on 11/22/63 or early the next day. (There are not a lot of flowers on the ground or elsewhere in this overhead photo). That photo shows a dark area inside the parking lot that looks to be 1/2 the length and width of a vehicle. That dark area is roughly opposite the guy/kid atop the picket fence in Towner 3. Whatever caused that dark area could be what attracted this Towner 3 guy/kid's attention and had him wanting to see into the Parking Lot. There is nothing resembling this large dark area anywhere else inside the parking lot or in the train yard in this photo. It's totally out of place.