JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Michael Welch on September 27, 2023, 02:54:47 PM
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In Richard Bothun's fourth photograph, there is a shadowy figure at the far right. He is known as Shadow Man.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothun.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Shadow_Man.jpg)
I propose that Shadow Man is this older gentleman leaning against the concrete wall in this Croft photograph. He is to the lady's left, who is wearing the blue dress, glasses, and the red sweater. He is wearing an army summer uniform and a garrison cap.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/croft~0.jpg)
I am also proposing that he is the man who Senator Ralph Yarborough said dove and hit the ground in The Men Who Killed Kennedy. It was not Gordon Arnold.
Starting at around the 4:42 mark you can hear Senator Yarborough.
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Concerning Gordon Arnold, yesterday Duncan posted access to the Roy Cooper film. In the copy listed below, just for a few seconds, it looks like we have possibly an army soldier, dressed in his summer uniform, wearing his garrison cap, and maybe even carrying a camera in his right hand. Is this a picture of Gordon Arnold on November 22, 1963? Sincerely yours, Michael
Starting around the 33 second mark, go straight back in the middle of the two wooden posts from the left hand side, until you hit the man to the right of the lady wearing the white coat with her back to us. Unfortunately there is a lady wearing a black coat who obscures his right arm most of the time.
If you look straight back in these Murray photographs, past the wooden posts, it appears we have the back of the soldier shining in the sun on the left hand side of the posts. There appears to be something shiny in his right hand, perhaps his camera.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Murrayscan2.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/railroad-yard-1.jpg)
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What about this person? close approximate time frame, and the only person standing in close proximity behind the wall, Shadow Woman?
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Grant.jpg)
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What about this person? close approximate time frame, and the only person standing in close proximity behind the wall, Shadow Woman?
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Grant.jpg)
Hi Duncan, Ironically, I think it is the older soldier's wife!!! You are too funny. I think it is a photograph of the woman with glasses in the blue dress with the red sweater in the Croft photograph. Do you have the ability to do a screen grab of the figure in The Roy Cooper film and would you want to post it? Thank you as always for everything that you have done for me! I really am grateful! Sincerely yours, Michael
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Hi Duncan, Ironically, I think it is the older soldier's wife!!! You are too funny. I think it is a photograph of the woman with glasses in the blue dress with the red sweater in the Croft photograph. Do you have the ability to do a screen grab of the figure in The Roy Cooper film and would you want to post it? Thank you as always for everything that you have done for me! I really am grateful! Sincerely yours, Michael
Or perhaps it's a different woman standing behind the wall beside a Policeman, or Pareidolia at play.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c1.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c0.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c2.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c3.jpg)
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Or perhaps it's a different woman standing behind the wall beside a Policeman, or Pareidolia at play.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c1.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c0.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c2.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c3.jpg)
Hi Duncan, Is the policeman wearing a hat? Thank you for everything! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
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Hi Duncan, Is the policeman wearing a hat? Thank you for everything! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
Yes, it's hard to unsee it once you see it.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c3.jpg)
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Yes, it's hard to unsee it once you see it.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/c3.jpg)
Does the woman have a handlebar moustache?
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There is no evidence that Arnold was in Dealey Plaza that day. Yes he claimed he was but did not offer any evidence.
Fred
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Hi Fred, I hope you are doing well! Please see below. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
Concerning Gordon Arnold, Duncan posted access to the Roy Cooper film. In the copy listed below, just for a few seconds, it looks like we have possibly an army soldier, dressed in his summer uniform, wearing his garrison cap, and maybe even carrying a camera in his right hand. Is this a picture of Gordon Arnold on November 22, 1963? Sincerely yours, Michael
Starting around the 33 second mark, go straight back in the middle of the two wooden posts from the left hand side, until you hit the man to the right of the lady wearing the white coat with her back to us. Unfortunately there is a lady wearing a black coat who obscures his right arm most of the time.
If you look straight back in this Murray photographs, past the wooden posts, it appears we have the back of the soldier shining in the sun on the left hand side of the posts. There appears to be something shiny in his right hand, perhaps his camera.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Murrayscan2.jpg)
In this Gerda gif of Black Dog Man, to his right you see a figure similar to Shadow Man, could this be Gordon Arnold as well?
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_27.gif)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/railroad-yard-1.jpg)
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I just found a better picture of Badge Man. Please credit Denis Morissette! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://jfkassassinationdocumentaries.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/the-assassination-film-279-hughes-film-parking-lot.jpg)
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Within the last few days I have listened to the 1989 Gordon Arnold interview that was conducted by Canover Hunt/Curator of the Sixth Floor Museum. This roughly 45 minute oral interview was conducted shortly after Gordon Arnold appeared on the award winning "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" UK TV series. On that UK program, Arnold told the world that he had filmed the assassination of JFK and was then immediately accosted by a policeman wearing no hat who then took the film from inside his camera. Canover Hunt unearthed a lot of important but overlooked details during her 6/6/1989 interview of Gordon Arnold. One of these details is that Arnold told her his physical position while filming the JFK assassination was done while standing atop a dirt pile. Arnold took this position in order to achieve a high ground filming position. Arnold added the detail that dirt had been pushed around in this area just East of the picket fence that runs directly down toward Elm St. (If you look closely at the Darnell Film segment that displays a Bench in this same general area, that Bench is also situated on an elevated section of ground/dirt). This overlooked Gordon Arnold revelation of dirt having been moved around and therefore creating elevated ground positions, throws into a cocked hat the much speculated shot trajectories possibly being fired from this area. This speculation would include the possible Badge Man shot trajectories. In the complete Sitzman interview that was conducted by Josiah Thompson (not the abridged one that appears in his book), Thompson touched on the possibility of there being a shooter firing from an elevated position somewhere in the parking lot/train yard area. Obviously, Thompson was unaware of there already being sporadic elevated ground position East of the picket fence on 11/22/63. A dirt mound may also explain the Guy/Kid we see high above the picket fence on TOWNER 3 SLIDE. (UNCROPPED). That 1989 Sixth Floor interview of Gordon Arnold has held game changing information for decades. This once again calls into question the diligence of the JFK Assassination Research Community.
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I just found this colorized Murray photograph. To me it shows Gordon Arnold in his summer dress uniform even better because it shows a big contrast difference between what his uniform looks like compared to those in civilian clothes around him. Also, he is very near to where he said he parked his car.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/fd/0a/b4fd0a32dca4daaa299d46ba3b44aba5.jpg)
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I just found this colorized Murray photograph. To me it shows Gordon Arnold in his summer dress uniform even better because it shows a big contrast difference between what his uniform looks like compared to those in civilian clothes around him. Also, he is very near to where he said he parked his car.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/fd/0a/b4fd0a32dca4daaa299d46ba3b44aba5.jpg)
Michael - Congratulations on this find. It could be a legit breakthrough regarding the ongoing dispute surrounding whether Gordon Arnold was even inside Dealey Plaza when JFK was assassinated. Arnold was supposed to be dressed in a khaki colored uniform on that day. What we are seeing in this photo would pass the Arnold Khaki Uni eye test. Now, we need someone to ZOOM IN on that same figure to see if he is wearing a CAP. The confirmation or exclusion of a cap would almost conclusively help to decide whether Arnold was inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. During his 6/6/1989 Sixth Floor Oral History Interview, Arnold said he parked behind the Lee Bowers Tower. The figure we are looking in this photo is definitely headed toward the Bowers Tower. Congrats again.
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Michael - Congratulations on this find. It could be a legit breakthrough regarding the ongoing dispute surrounding whether Gordon Arnold was even inside Dealey Plaza when JFK was assassinated. Arnold was supposed to be dressed in a khaki colored uniform on that day. What we are seeing in this photo would pass the Arnold Khaki Uni eye test. Now, we need someone to ZOOM IN on that same figure to see if he is wearing a CAP. The confirmation or exclusion of a cap would almost conclusively help to decide whether Arnold was inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. During his 6/6/1989 Sixth Floor Oral History Interview, Arnold said he parked behind the Lee Bowers Tower. The figure we are looking in this photo is definitely headed toward the Bowers Tower. Congrats again.
Hi Royell, Thank you my friend! It has always looked like he is wearing a garrison cap to me. If I am understanding Gordon Arnold correctly in his 1989 interview with Conover Hunt, he is saying that Lucien Sarti is Badge Man, and that he told Nigel Turner who the Railroad Man is. I think Sarti was a Frenchman who worked as an assassin for the Corsican Mafia. If you look at I think it is a Cancellare photo on the bottom with the Murray photo on the top, there are a couple of French looking men near Mary Moorman and to their left is a man who looks like E. Howard Hunt. The Frenchman wearing the beret looks to have a newspaper in his left hand; then in the Murray photo, it appears that the newspaper has been handed off to an older detective type American man wearing a hat, who now has the newspaper in his right hand. If all of this is happening, could there be a piece of Lucien Sarti's gun that has been dismantled and is being transferred around until it is gone? Thank you again for your compliment! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image27~0.jpg)
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The feel I got from the Gordon Arnold/Canover Hunt interview was that Arnold recalled seeing Sarti previously, but Arnold could not with certainty place his Sarti sighting at Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. This I believe gives credibility to all the other details that Arnold revealed during that interview.
To my knowledge, nobody other than Arnold has ever claimed to be in that dirt area between the picket fence and the Flat Concrete Walkway. This makes Arnold's telling of his standing atop a dirt pile/elevated, and adding that dirt in general had been pushed around back there a revelation. None of the Line-Of-Sight (LOS), or measured angles toward the Kill Shot "X" on Elm St, have taken into account that there were various positions back there that were Elevated above ground level. With there being black shadows from the picket fence to about 4 feet out toward the flat cement walkway, along with possible elevated mounds of dirt, does present the possibility of a shooter on the (E) side of the picket fence vs the routinely accepted shooter on the (W) side of the picket fence/inside the parking lot. A possible shooter on the East side of the picket fence, shooting from an elevated position atop a dirt mound, throws ALL the previous LOS measurements/shot angles from the parking lot side of the fence into a cocked hat.
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The feel I got from the Gordon Arnold/Canover Hunt interview was that Arnold recalled seeing Sarti previously, but Arnold could not with certainty place his Sarti sighting at Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. This I believe gives credibility to all the other details that Arnold revealed during that interview.
To my knowledge, nobody other than Arnold has ever claimed to be in that dirt area between the picket fence and the Flat Concrete Walkway. This makes Arnold's telling of his standing atop a dirt pile/elevated, and adding that dirt in general had been pushed around back there a revelation. None of the Line-Of-Sight (LOS), or measured angles toward the Kill Shot "X" on Elm St, have taken into account that there were various positions back there that were Elevated above ground level. With there being black shadows from the picket fence to about 4 feet out toward the flat cement walkway, along with possible elevated mounds of dirt, does present the possibility of a shooter on the (E) side of the picket fence vs the routinely accepted shooter on the (W) side of the picket fence/inside the parking lot. A possible shooter on the East side of the picket fence, shooting from an elevated position atop a dirt mound, throws ALL the previous LOS measurements/shot angles from the parking lot side of the fence into a cocked hat.
Hi Royell, Thank you for your input my friend! To me, the spot you are talking about would be the spot where Lee Bowers saw a puff of smoke or a flash of light from his tower position! Thank you again! Sincerely yours, Michael
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Did Gordon Arnold stop by the knoll and film some memorial decorations on 11-23-63?
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6939234991_12c8ec0dee_b.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6939237189_659dc0dba6_b.jpg)
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I just found a better picture of Badge Man. Please credit Denis Morissette! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://jfkassassinationdocumentaries.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/the-assassination-film-279-hughes-film-parking-lot.jpg)
Michael,
I urge you to read each and every word of this excellent research regarding "Badge Man". He simply did not exist. https://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_3.htm
Also...the "Black Dog Man" couldn't have been an assassin. There was a black couple who were seated on a park bench situated directly behind the retaining wall. It is a known fact that they were eating lunch because Marilyn Sitzman refers to them during her interview with Josiah Thompson in 1966. Also, their lunch bag and part of the contents was photographed on the bench, as well as the couple being captured in the Jimmy Darnell fil, standing next to the bench after the assassination. There's no way an assassin was shooting from behind that wallin plain view of Sitzman and Zapruder.
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Michael,
I urge you to read each and every word of this excellent research regarding "Badge Man". He simply did not exist. https://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_3.htm
Also...the "Black Dog Man" couldn't have been an assassin. There was a black couple who were seated on a park bench situated directly behind the retaining wall. It is a known fact that they were eating lunch because Marilyn Sitzman refers to them during her interview with Josiah Thompson in 1966. Also, their lunch bag and part of the contents was photographed on the bench, as well as the couple being captured in the Jimmy Darnell fil, standing next to the bench after the assassination. There's no way an assassin was shooting from behind that wallin plain view of Sitzman and Zapruder.
In that same interview, Sitzman said she immediately went down the Knoll following the shooting and then back up it. She claimed she was questioned by Fed Agents at both the bottom and top of the knoll. There are NO IMAGES to support this claim or eyewitnesses either. Sitzman is also the ONLY EYEWITNESS that claims to have seen a Black Couple sitting on that bench immediately before and after the JFK Assassination. There are also no images to support that claim either. Yet, we got researchers claiming the Sitzman story of a Black Couple watching the Kill Shot while seated on that bench is legit, and then they turn around and run away from Sitzman claiming to have been questioned by Fed Agents there on the knoll. You "researchers" can Not have it both ways.
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Sitzman said she immediately went down the Knoll following the shooting and then back up it. She claimed she was questioned by Fed Agents at both the bottom and top of the knoll. There are NO IMAGES to support this claim or eyewitnesses either.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1925.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1925.0.html)
???
(https://i.imgur.com/orD51xK.png)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Sitzbottomknoll.gif)
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1925.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1925.0.html)
???
(https://i.imgur.com/orD51xK.png)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Sitzbottomknoll.gif)
Exactly what is the point you are attempting to make?
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Exactly what is the point you are attempting to make?
I'm not attempting to make a point. :)
Let's Rewind
Quote from: Royell Storing on Today at 05:45:44 AM
Sitzman said she immediately went down the Knoll following the shooting and then back up it. She claimed she was questioned by Fed Agents at both the bottom and top of the knoll. There are NO IMAGES to support this claim or eyewitnesses either.
(https://i.imgur.com/orD51xK.png)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Sitzbottomknoll.gif)
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I'm not attempting to make a point. :)
Let's Rewind
(https://i.imgur.com/orD51xK.png)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Sitzbottomknoll.gif)
Sitzman said after "getting down from the concrete slab we were standing on" she ran down the hill and then walked back up it. None of the images you have provided fit that Sitzman timeline. It took roughly 2 minutes for the JFK Motorcade to travel down Elm St and then permit those on the (S) side of Elm to cross over to the (N) side of Elm. Your pics of Sitzman are CROWD Scenes. Well over 2 minutes after the kill shot. Plus, there were allegedly No G-Men inside Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination as claimed by Sitzman. Yet, "researchers" wanta cherry pic through her Thompson interview and Rubber Stamp as Fact that there was a Black Couple sitting on that Bench near the Black Dog Man Nook. If you wanta buy into the Sitzman claims with NO Images or Eyewitnesses to back her up, then using this same measuring stick means you gotta accept Bev Oliver as being Babushka and the Gordon Arnold story. Fairs Fair.
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Sitzman said after "getting down from the concrete slab we were standing on" she ran down the hill and then walked back up it. None of the images you have provided fit that Sitzman timeline. It took roughly 2 minutes for the JFK Motorcade to travel down Elm St and then permit those on the (S) side of Elm to cross over to the (N) side of Elm. Your pics of Sitzman are CROWD Scenes. Well over 2 minutes after the kill shot. Plus, there were allegedly No G-Men inside Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination as claimed by Sitzman. Yet, "researchers" wanta cherry pic through her Thompson interview and Rubber Stamp as Fact that there was a Black Couple sitting on that Bench near the Black Dog Man Nook. If you wanta buy into the Sitzman claims with NO Images or Eyewitnesses to back her up, then using this same measuring stick means you gotta accept Bev Oliver as being Babushka and the Gordon Arnold story. Fairs Fair.
For those who haven't read the Inteview with Thompson
Josiah Thompson's (author of "Six Seconds in Dallas") interview with Marilyn Sitzman, the woman who held Abraham Zapruder while he was filming the motorcade. Transcript of tape recording. Transcript in Zapruder file at Assassination Research Center, Washington DC.
SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS (p. 102) identifies this interview as having taken place on November 29, 1966.
Ellipses as in original transcript.
Thompson: I'm talking to Marilyn Sitzman. Marilyn Sitzman was standing on the concrete pedestal with Abraham Zapruder. Marilyn, could you just describe in your own words then the events of November 22, beginning, oh, perhaps, five or ten minutes before the assassination occurred?
Sitzman: Well, before the presidential motorcade came down the street, Mr. Zapruder ran a few frames of the film, just with us standing there on the lawn in front of the marble ... whatever you call it.
Thompson: Yeah.
Sitzman: Then ... he ... I don't know if he had decided before or had picked a spot, but he went on top of the ... what do you call it?
Thompson: The concrete square ... concrete ... yeah.
Sitzman: Yes. Well, he stood up there, and he asked me to come up and stand behind him, 'cause when he takes the pictures looking through the telescopic lens, he might get dizzy, and he wanted me to stand behind him, so in case he got dizzy I could hold onto him. so I got up behind him, and we saw the motorcade turn the corner at Main onto Houston. He hadn't started taking the pictures there then, and we watched them as they came down Houston; and just as the motorcycles that were leading the parade came ... started ... came around the corner and started down the hill, he started taking the pictures then. And there's nothing unusual about it ... (interrupted by a knock -- tape recorder turned off).
Thompson: (resumes recording) So now I believe the motorcade has made the turn onto Houston Street and is proceeding down Houston Street. Sorry we were interrupted.
Sitzman: Try it again. There was nothing unusual until the first sound, which I thought was a firecracker, mainly because of the reaction of President Kennedy. He put his hands up to guard his face and leaned to the left, and the motorcade, you know, proceeded down the hill. And the next thing that I remembered correct ... clearly was the shot that hit him directly in front of us, or almost directly in front of us, that hit him on the side of his fa ... [sic]
Thompson: Where on the side of the head did that shot appear to hit?
Sitzman: I would say it'd be above the ear and to the front.
Thompson: In other words, if one drew a line vertically upward from the tip of the ear, it would be forward of that line?
Sitzman: Yeah.
Thompson: It would then mean the left ... back of the temple, but on the side of the head, back of the temple?
Sitzman: Between the eye and the ear.
Thompson: Between the eye and the ear.
Sitzman: And we could see his brains come out, you know, his head opening. It must have been a terrible shot because it exploded his head, more or less.
Thompson: Did you see what the President's movement was at that point? I mean, how his head moved or how his body seemed to move under the impact of the shot.
Sitzman: No, I guess ... I saw his, you know, the shot hit his head and what happened to his head, and I don't care what anybody says, I was looking at his head. I wasn't paying any attention which way he was moving or anything else, because it's something that I've never seen before, you know, and kind of ugh.
Thompson: Did you see the head flip, though, under the impact in any particular direction -- forward, backward, to the left?
Sitzman: No, I don't recall if I did or not. I just, you know, this is what I saw, this is what I remember.
Thompson: Right, right.
Sitzman: And as far as the sound of the shots go, the first one, as I said, sounded like a firecracker, and the second one that I heard sounded the same, because I recall no difference whatsoever in them. And I'm sure that if the second shot would have come from a different place -- and the supposed theory is they would have been much closer to me and on the right side -- I would have heard the sounding of the gun much closer, and I probably had a ringing in my head because the fence was quite close to where we were standing, very close. Ah, it just sounded the same way.
Thompson: Your ears, then, never rung from the particular explosion. They weren't that ...
Sitzman: Uh, uh ... not ... the loudest thing I heard that afternoon was the siren, and that was ...
Thompson: And then you watched the ... then after the head shot, the car disappeared under the underpass?
Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. And another thing that I remember this day: there was a colored couple. I figure they were between 18 and 21, a boy and a girl, sitting on a bench, just almost, oh, parallel with me, on my right side, close to the fence.
Thompson: In other words, between you and the fence, there's a tree right next to the ...
Sitzman: There's a tree, and there's another part of the marble or concrete, whatever they call it, slab, fence, whatever they call it, between that and the wooden fence.
Thompson: Which direction was the bench facing when you ...
Sitzman: It was facing towards the street.
Thompson: Towards the street. Parallel? Downstreet? Facing forward?
Sitzman: And they were eating their lunch, 'cause they had little lunch sacks, and they were drinking coke. The main reason I remember 'em is, after the last shot I recall hearing and the car went down under the triple underpass there, I heard a crash of glass, and I looked over there, and the kids had thrown down their coke bottles, just threw them down and just started running towards the back and I ... Of course, I don't see anything unusual in that because everybody else was running that way, 'cause when I look over on my left side, the people on the hill were all running back the same way too.
Thompson: Uh huh. Uh huh. Did you see any peculiar vehicles or people in the area that's been called the grassy knoll, in the parking lot area behind the fence or behind the pergola?
Sitzman: Well, there were a lot of cars in the parking lot. There always is. It's the parking lot for the Texas School Depository.
Thompson: Was it pretty well packed that day with cars?
Sitzman: That day and every day.
Thompson: Uh huh.
Sitzman: It's always full, because the people ... I'm not too sure whose lot it is. If it's part of the railroad company or the Texas School Depository or what, but it's always filled.
Thompson: Could I ask you something about your gaze and actions immediately after the head shot? On the trailer of Mr. Zapruder's film, we noticed that he turned to his right and photographed the general area of the stockade fence, the trees and the stockade fence and that particular area. Did you turn in that direction after the head shot too?
Sitzman: In a way, I have a feeling this: He might have heard the kids throw down the coke bottles and heard that crash or else maybe it was just what he saw could have caused a reaction where he'd jump, but I don't think it was the sound of bullets, because I didn't jump.
Thompson: No.
Sitzman: Because the pop bottle crashing was much louder than the shots were.
Thompson: No, this is a slightly different thing. I remarked earlier that in the Zapruder film, around frame 318, 319, we see a very sudden jiggle in the film as if the photographer was startled by a noise or by seeing something, and earlier you suggested ... well, what did you suggest?
Sitzman: Well, seeing what we saw when the bullet hit Kennedy's head and it opening up like this, you don't stand there very calmly and do nothing. I'm sure ... it ... to me, it would be a normal reaction to kind of jump or something.
Thompson: In other words, one would be startled by what one saw there rather than necessarily by what one heard.
Sitzman: Sure, sure. If you're the type of person that would react that way. Some would just immediately freeze. Some people would ... Some women would've probably passed out, some ... rather bloody ....
Thompson: Darn right. I know. I've seen the films too. Now, to get to this area between the stockade fence and the cement abutment, or small mall: Did you turn after the shot to look in this general area?
Sitzman: Yes.
Thompson: And did you see anyone in this area?
Sitzman: No, just the two colored people running back.
Thompson: I see. They were already ... they'd gotten up from the bench and were now running around into the gap made between the stockade fence and the pergola.
Sitzman: Either in the gap there or back in the alcove. I don't recall which way they went. I saw ... I heard the bottles crash, and of course I looked that way, to my right, right away, and they were getting up and running towards the back. And I turned back to see if there was anything in the front street, because then they didn't affect me one way or another.
Thompson: To see if anything else was going on. Had you seen them sitting on the bench before you stood next to them?
Sitzman: Oh year, yes. Everybody is ... oh, ten or fifteen minutes before, everybody was milling around down there, trying to find a place to stand and everything, and I know when we went over to get up on the marble thing, they were already sitting there.
Thompson: Well, did you notice at any point whether either of these two moved up to the end of the, to the point of the wall?
Sitzman: No. They may have. I don't know.
Thompson: Of course, you were looking at the parade at that point, and you wouldn't have seen what they did.
Sitzman: Yeah. I always have the feeling that they were still sitting on the bench, because when I looked over there, they were getting up from the bench.
Thompson: Marilyn, I've showed you this picture, which is approximately Nix frame 24, the famous frame which shows what some people believe to be a vehicle with a man on top of it. We discussed this earlier, and I take it to be your definite and certain opinion that if there was a vehicle there it was not out in this plateau area.
Sitzman: That's correct. This is one thing that you couldn't miss.
Thompson: Right.
Sitzman: Because it's not that large an area back there, and if there'd been a car back there, especially with someone on top of it, you just don't over look it.
Thompson: Right, right. No, I agree. So, whatever this be, whether it be a vehicle, whatever it is, you feel quite certain it's back of the pergola, back of the line joining the periphery of the pergola with the stockade fence. It's shoved back of this bush, in other words, which appears both in this ...
Sitzman: I know what you're saying, but I still can't say it.
Thompson: I can't figure out how to say ... in other words ...
Sitzman: I can't say that there was ... I can't say ... I can't see how any picture could take a picture of a car back there. It'd have to be up on stilts. That fence is rather high.
Thompson: Yeah. By fence, you mean the cement wall.
Sitzman: Sure, the cement wall and the fence, and this picture, remember this picture is taken from a downhill angle looking up, so it's even going to have to be higher than a five-foot fence.
Thompson: Actually, this is taken from about the same elevation from quite a distance over, the other side of Main Street.
Sitzman: Oh, I see.
Thompson: With a telescopic lens. So you're quite certain that whatever this be, and we're making no decision as to what it is, it's back in that parking area, not in the plateau area bounded by the stockade fence on one side, by the cement wall on the other and by the pergola and the line joining the pergola and the stockade fence on the other.
Sitzman: That's right.
Thompson: Yeah, I must ... gee, I must say I sure agree with you on that. That seems quite clear. One other question I'd like to ask concerns your building itself. You mentioned that a great number of people were looking out of windows and sitting on fire escapes.
Sitzman: Uh huh.
Thompson: Do you happen to know whether people were on the upper floors, on the fourth, fifth, and sixth floors looking out?
Sitzman: I know about the fourth and fifth, because that's the floors we occupied. I don't know about the sixth, seventh, or two, three and four ... I mean two and three. But I'm sure that if our factory people were looking out there, there'd probably be people from the other people's factory, because there's a lot ... we have an awful lot of older women that work in factories that just didn't feel like walking all the way down there and back again. And you only get 30 minutes for lunch. And you get quite a good view of Houston Street from up there, and I'm sure they felt they could see just as much sitting in the windows on the fire escape watching.
Thompson: Well ... you do ... we talked about the roof of this building There's a water tower up there, and it is possible to get access to that from the roof.
Sitzman: I'm sure it is.
Thompson: That day, you don't recall police going around into the different factory offices of offices of the factory people?
Sitzman: No, no.
Thompson: So what I told you about this unidenti ... [sic] or this identified man who was found with no business in the building: that would indicate he was found somewhere in the hallways or out in the ...
Sitzman: It's possible or else it's possible the police did go through there, and I may not have been back to the building by then, or else I may have been back in one of the back rooms and not paid any attention.
Thompson: Sure, sure.
Sitzman: There was a ... there was thousands of people coming out of that building after I got back there. There was reporters, there were just people from the street I remember coming up and asking questions.
Thompson: Is there anything else you'd like to add to this at this point? Anything that you think would be of relevance to us as we go on and try to pursue leads and
...
Sitzman: No, not really.
Thompson: O.K. Well, thank you very, very much. [Sitzman leaves. Thompson talks into tape recorder]
Thompson: I want to add a kind of afterword to the Marilyn Sitzman interview. I asked Marilyn whether she recalled a telephone conversation with Mr. Jones Harris. She said she recalled that conversation, and then I related to her what Harris had told me, namely that she had heard a shot coming from her right, that it was rather close and that the, her right ear was ringing from the sound of the shot long after the explosions had died down. She said that she didn't recall telling Mr. Harris any such thing. She was rather surprised when I told her this. She said this was absolutely not the case and that on at least eight different occasions said that, pointed out that there was a similarity between the sound of the shots. If she had to guess from which direction they came, she would have guessed to her left, but there was no distinction in direction of the sound or magnitude of sound with respect to the two shots. My general opinion of Marilyn Sitzman is that first of all that what she told me is the truth. She in no way seemed to be sensitive to particular areas of the case. She seemed to be relating quite forthrightly what she had seen. She's a rather loose, friendly girl, personable and very easy to talk to and get along with. I must say that in the background of all the people that one talks to at the Zapruder factory, one gets the impression that they would be very unhappy to have anything turn up at this point that would lead to the re-opening of the case and further questions. They're tired of all the questioning and frankly wish it would all end. This applies especially to Mr. Abraham Zapruder ... [end]
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There is absolutely No Mention of Sitzman ever seeing a BABY with this alleged Black couple. Plus, as this Black Couple is allegedly breaking pop bottles and running Up The Steps, they are FACING SITZMAN who is only feet away. There is no way Sitzman would have missed seeing a baby. No way.
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There is absolutely No Mention of Sitzman ever seeing a BABY with this alleged Black couple. Plus, as this Black Couple is allegedly breaking pop bottles and running Up The Steps, they are FACING SITZMAN who is only feet away. There is no way Sitzman would have missed seeing a baby. No way.
Hi Royell, This is what I was saying you predicted! It was only a black couple who threw their bottles down and ran away. The couple with their baby boy hung around for awhile. As I also said earlier, I think Gordon Arnold mentioned both black couples and was driven crazy by the little boy's chattering! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
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Sitzman said after "getting down from the concrete slab we were standing on" she ran down the hill and then walked back up it. None of the images you have provided fit that Sitzman timeline. It took roughly 2 minutes for the JFK Motorcade to travel down Elm St and then permit those on the (S) side of Elm to cross over to the (N) side of Elm. Your pics of Sitzman are CROWD Scenes. Well over 2 minutes after the kill shot. Plus, there were allegedly No G-Men inside Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination as claimed by Sitzman. Yet, "researchers" wanta cherry pic through her Thompson interview and Rubber Stamp as Fact that there was a Black Couple sitting on that Bench near the Black Dog Man Nook. If you wanta buy into the Sitzman claims with NO Images or Eyewitnesses to back her up, then using this same measuring stick means you gotta accept Bev Oliver as being Babushka and the Gordon Arnold story. Fairs Fair.
You have no idea what Sitzman's timeline is.
As per usual, you're just making it up.
For example, how long was Sitzman in the alcove before she ran down the hill?
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You have no idea what Sitzman's timeline is.
As per usual, you're just making it up.
For example, how long was Sitzman in the alcove before she ran down the hill?
Sitzman was NOT inside the alcove Before she ran down the hill. Read what she said. "I got off the concrete slab we were standing on and I ran down the hill...." How long do you think it took to get down from the concrete slab and run down the hill? 45 seconds? 1 Minute Max? Droves of people from the (S) side of Elm St were NOT running across Elm St yet. And this is what the provided pics show. Crowds of people around Sitzman. Crowds of people couldn't get across Elm St due the JFK Motorcade/Press cars, Congressional Cars, Press Busses, etc ALL were Now traveling down Elm. And you miss the point of Sitzman claiming to talk with Fed Agents. NO Fed's were allegedly on-the-ground immediately following the Kill Shot. Either you have to disregard Sitzman's recollections that day, (including the Black Couple on the bench), or admit that the FBI/CIA were/are peddling thickly sliced baloney. You can Not have it both ways.
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Sitzman was NOT inside the alcove Before she ran down the hill. Read what she said. "I got off the concrete slab we were standing on and I ran down the hill...." How long do you think it took to get down from the concrete slab and run down the hill? 45 seconds? 1 Minute Max? Droves of people from the (S) side of Elm St were NOT running across Elm St yet. And this is what the provided pics show. Crowds of people around Sitzman. Crowds of people couldn't get across Elm St due the JFK Motorcade/Press cars, Congressional Cars, Press Busses, etc ALL were Now traveling down Elm. And you miss the point of Sitzman claiming to talk with Fed Agents. NO Fed's were allegedly on-the-ground immediately following the Kill Shot. Either you have to disregard Sitzman's recollections that day, (including the Black Couple on the bench), or admit that the FBI/CIA were/are peddling thickly sliced baloney. You can Not have it both ways.
Sitzman was NOT inside the alcove Before she ran down the hill. Read what she said. "I got off the concrete slab we were standing on and I ran down the hill...." How long do you think it took to get down from the concrete slab and run down the hill? 45 seconds? 1 Minute Max?
You need to familiarise yourself with the film/photo record before making such silly statements.
You are under the impression that a witness gives every single trivial detail when recounting a traumatic event.
Start with Bond.
When you're up to speed we'll have a chat.
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Hi Dan and Royell, In this Murray photo on the far left, I cannot figure out if it is Badge Man and his Railway Man companion or Badge Man and a motorcycle policeman. What do you two think? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/knoll-6.jpg)
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Sitzman was NOT inside the alcove Before she ran down the hill. Read what she said. "I got off the concrete slab we were standing on and I ran down the hill...." How long do you think it took to get down from the concrete slab and run down the hill? 45 seconds? 1 Minute Max?
You need to familiarise yourself with the film/photo record before making such silly statements.
You are under the impression that a witness gives every single trivial detail when recounting a traumatic event.
Start with Bond.
When you're up to speed we'll have a chat.
Again, you can NOT Cherry Pick through an eyewitness account. Put yourself in the jury box. Sitzman could be a stand-in for Aunt Bee. Likable, but excitable with a consistently unreliable memory.
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Hi Dan and Royell, In this Murray photo on the far left, I cannot figure out if it is Badge Man and his Railway Man companion or Badge Man and a motorcycle policeman. What do you two think? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/knoll-6.jpg)
That far (L) area is too dark for me to discern those figures.
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Again, you can NOT Cherry Pick through an eyewitness account. Put yourself in the jury box. Sitzman could be a stand-in for Aunt Bee. Likable, but excitable with a consistently unreliable memory.
What you can do is corroborate their accounts with photographic/film evidence.
Give it a try and you'll find you're wrong about Sitzman's movements.
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What you can do is corroborate their accounts with photographic/film evidence.
Give it a try and you'll find you're wrong about Sitzman's movements.
OK by me. I'm waiting for your "photographic/film evidence" of: (1) Sitzman talking to a "FBI-Man at the top of the Knoll, (2) Black Couple sitting on the bench near the Black Dog Man Nook. We'll start there for now.
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OK by me. I'm waiting for your "photographic/film evidence" of: (1) Sitzman talking to a "FBI-Man at the top of the Knoll, (2) Black Couple sitting on the bench near the Black Dog Man Nook. We'll start there for now.
We'll start with you explaining why Sitzman isn't in this picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fW1fF6Nv/bond8.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/g2XM0Q9M/Bond2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Can you see her in this pic, Royell?
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We'll start with you explaining why Sitzman isn't in this picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fW1fF6Nv/bond8.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You got it backward. YOU are defending Sitzman as being a reliable source of information. You know, like: (1) her claim of seeing a black couple sitting on the bench near the Black Dog Man Nook, and (2) her claiming to have talked to an FBI Agent at the Top of the knoll. I'm still waiting on YOU to provide image verification or eyewitness corroboration of those having ever happened. Chop/Chop Walk:
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You got it backward. YOU are defending Sitzman as being a reliable source of information. You know, like: (1) her claim of seeing a black couple sitting on the bench near the Black Dog Man Nook, and (2) her claiming to have talked to an FBI Agent at the Top of the knoll. I'm still waiting on YOU to provide image verification or eyewitness corroboration of those having ever happened. Chop/Chop Walk:
What's happening, Royell, is that I'm demonstrating, once again, that you're full of hot air and don't know what you're talking about.
It's you who is insisting Sitzman ran down the hill immediately. You do your usual thing of swallowing just a piece of the evidence down and regurgitating it as the "truth".
Far from me "defending Sitzman as being a source of reliable information", it's you who are swallowing down the quote from her Thompson interview.
Because I'm familiar with the photo/film record I know it's something I can easily check for corroboration.
But you don't have the first clue about the photo/film record and didn't realise that Sitzman's claim - that she got off the concrete plinth and ran down the hill" - could easily be checked.
And now we have you ducking and diving, trying to shift the goalposts, anything other than admit to your mistake.
Because you never do admit to your mistake.
You wouldn't believe how many pictures I could post showing that Sitzman didn't run straight down the hill.
So, where did she go Royell?
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTnKHbgv/Sitzman-Alcove.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Can you see her yet?
What do you think she meant when she said "I finally got back up to the alcove".
Come on.
You can do it.
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(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/zappat.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Bellsitz.gif)
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For those who haven't read the Inteview with Thompson
would all end. This applies especially to Mr. Abraham Zapruder
Take a real deep breath and very slowly read ALL OF what Sitzman claimed to have seen and done.
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(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/zappat.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Bellsitz.gif)
Thanks for posting that Paschall Film snippet at the top. I know this is supposed to be Zapruder and Sitzman, but I seriously doubt that Zapruder could move/run that fast. We also need to firmly establish at Exactly what ground level are the 2 figures moving around at. This footage has always been most interesting.
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Thanks for posting that Paschall Film snippet at the top. I know this is supposed to be Zapruder and Sitzman, but I seriously doubt that Zapruder could move/run that fast. We also need to firmly establish at Exactly what ground level are the 2 figures moving around at. This footage has always been most interesting.
You don't seem to have noticed that Sitzman is walking towards the alcove in the Bell footage.
What a shock.
So she didn't get off the pedestal and run straight down the hill. You are wrong.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2Wt6zkC/Sitzman-Alcove1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Familiarise yourself with the film/photo record and use it to corroborate witness statements Thumb1:
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You don't seem to have noticed that Sitzman is walking towards the alcove in the Bell footage.
What a shock.
So she didn't get off the pedestal and run straight down the hill. You are wrong.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2Wt6zkC/Sitzman-Alcove1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Familiarise yourself with the film/photo record and use it to corroborate witness statements Thumb1:
Exactly! You fail to understand that You are discrediting your own witness. If Sitzman is wrong regarding her having got down from the Z Perch and then run down and up the Knoll, how do we now believe her story regarding a Black couple sitting on the bench and throwing down pop bottles? Or, her claiming she was confronted by G-Men on the Knoll? There are repercussions to your snippets above. Stop knee jerking and THINK things through.
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Exactly! You fail to understand that You are discrediting your own witness. If Sitzman is wrong regarding her having got down from the Z Perch and then run down and up the Knoll, how do we now believe her story regarding a Black couple sitting on the bench and throwing down pop bottles? Or, her claiming she was confronted by G-Men on the Knoll? There are repercussions to your snippets above. Stop knee jerking and THINK things through.
It's good you've admitted you were wrong.
It'll do you good in the long run.
Sitzman isn't being untruthful or deceptive in what she's saying. She's talking about watching the President's head explode. It's a totally traumatic event. She hasn't included certain trivial details - so what?
From that you now question her whole account as if she's got something to hide.
It's ridiculous. There is no reason to suspect she is being deliberately misleading. To think so reflects on you, not her.
You need to learn various lessons about witness statements and the film/photo record. It might stop you making such silly statements.
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It's good you've admitted you were wrong.
It'll do you good in the long run.
Sitzman isn't being untruthful or deceptive in what she's saying. She's talking about watching the President's head explode. It's a totally traumatic event. She hasn't included certain trivial details - so what?
From that you now question her whole account as if she's got something to hide.
It's ridiculous. There is no reason to suspect she is being deliberately misleading. To think so reflects on you, not her.
You need to learn various lessons about witness statements and the film/photo record. It might stop you making such silly statements.
Who said anything abou Sitzman being "deceptive", or suspecting that "she is being DELIBERATELY misleading"? With regard to her screwing up the chronology of her traveling down the knoll vs her going inside the Shelter, her track record now makes her just as likely to have seen the alleged Black Couple seated on the bench/breaking pop bottles BEFORE the JFK Limo entered Dealey Plaza. Based on what we have seen and heard from her, her memory is unreliable, and her verbal descriptions are nowhere near pin-point.
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Who said anything abou Sitzman being "deceptive", or suspecting that "she is being DELIBERATELY misleading"? With regard to her screwing up the chronology of her traveling down the knoll vs her going inside the Shelter, her track record now makes her just as likely to have seen the alleged Black Couple seated on the bench/breaking pop bottles BEFORE the JFK Limo entered Dealey Plaza. Based on what we have seen and heard from her, her memory is unreliable, and her verbal descriptions are nowhere near pin-point.
She missed out a trivial detail and that's all.
Now you're saying things she actually witnessed aren't to be trusted because she missed out a trivial detail.
You need to have a think about what you're saying.
Saying she witnessed a young black couple or that she spoke to someone who identified themselves as a federal agent are things she actually remembers, not trivial details she forgot to mention.
You clearly can't see the difference and it says a lot about you and the way you look at this case.
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She missed out a trivial detail and that's all.
Now you're saying things she actually witnessed aren't to be trusted because she missed out a trivial detail.
You need to have a think about what you're saying.
Saying she witnessed a young black couple or that she spoke to someone who identified themselves as a federal agent are things she actually remembers, not trivial details she forgot to mention.
You clearly can't see the difference and it says a lot about you and the way you look at this case.
"Trivial detail"? She reversed the order of her going inside the shelter with her traveling down and up the knoll. And, there are No Images or Eyewitnesses to back up her claiming to seeing a Black Couple sitting on the Bench and busting pop bottles as they ran up The Steps. Yet, alleged "researchers" are accepting her tale as being fact. This is why this case remains unresolved almost 60 yrs later. Uncorroborated BS: being freely distributed as Fact.
To provide some context to this Sitzman interview, Josiah Thompson flew into Dallas for a scheduled interview of Zapruder at the Dal-Tex Bld. At the last minute, Zapruder canceled the interview, leaving Thompson to then quickly pivot and instead interview Sitzman who was working there at the Dal-Tex Bld. Thompson never did manage to get an interview with Zapruder, even though his best seller, "Six Seconds In Dallas", was based on images filmed by Abe Zapruder.
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"Trivial detail"? She reversed the order of her going inside the shelter with her traveling down and up the knoll. And, there are No Images or Eyewitnesses to back up her claiming to seeing a Black Couple sitting on the Bench and busting pop bottles as they ran up The Steps. Yet, alleged "researchers" are accepting her tale as being fact. This is why this case remains unresolved almost 60 yrs later. Uncorroborated BS: being freely distributed as Fact.
To provide some context to this Sitzman interview, Josiah Thompson flew into Dallas for a scheduled interview of Zapruder at the Dal-Tex Bld. At the last minute, Zapruder canceled the interview, leaving Thompson to then quickly pivot and instead interview Sitzman who was working there at the Dal-Tex Bld. Thompson never did manage to get an interview with Zapruder, even though his best seller, "Six Seconds In Dallas", was based on images filmed by Abe Zapruder.
"Trivial detail"?
It doesn't seem possible to you that she mentions things that seem relevant to her in the interview? Standing in the alcove wasn't relevant. Going down the hill and telling people JFK had been killed seemed relevant. Going back up the hill and talking to someone who ID'd themselves as a federal agent seemed relevant. Standing in the shelter didn't seem relevant so she didn't bother mentioning it. It's a totally trivial detail that didn't need mentioning. You seem to expect that she would give Thompson a microscopic analysis of her every move.
The only problem is that you think it is relevant and, as usual, you're wrong.
And, there are No Images or Eyewitnesses to back up her claiming to seeing a Black Couple sitting on the Bench and busting pop bottles as they ran up The Steps.
This is typical of how you half read something and just make up the rest.
Nowhere in her interview with Thompson doe she mention seeing a black couple running up the steps. You've made this up but you probably don't even realise. It's typical of the standard you display as a "researcher". Then you get all wound up because nobody else saw something you made up.
It's a really poor standard.
For the record - When she first arrives at the pedestal, Sitzman is aware of a black couple sat on the bench we see in Darnell. She pays no further attention to them, she is interested in the motorcade.
The next time she becomes aware of them is after the limo enters the underpass and she hears breaking glass which draws her attention to the couple leaving the area of the bench in a hurry and running towards the back of the shelter.
This is why this case remains unresolved almost 60 yrs later.
The main reason the case remains unresolved is due to people like yourself who feel free to make up any old BS: they feel. It's become an industry that has completely swamped this area of research. For people genuinely trying to understand the case, far more time is spent dealing with BS: theories than anything else.
And the LNer community get a free ride because genuine researchers who are Cters can be brushed off as belonging to a bunch of crazies.