JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on March 27, 2022, 12:54:09 AM
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In the Altgens-5 photo, there is a lady holding a camera to her face just to the camera left of the U.S. flag on the front right of the presidential limo. She is wearing a dark dress:
(https://i.vgy.me/dN26BU.jpg)
If I am looking at the Don Roberdeau map correctly, the camera lady appears to be in the group of ladies from "The Dallas Morning News" watching the motorcade. According to an affidavit dated 12/7/63 by Mary Elizabeth Woodward, she was accompanied by: AURELIA ALONZO, MARGARET BROWN and ANNE DONALDSON. My best estimate based on the names on the Roberdeau map is that the camera lady could be Anne Donaldson.
My questions are:
1. Has anyone confirmed the name of this camera lady?
2. Has anyone seen any of the photos that the camera lady appears to be making?
Please respond if you have any comments at all. Thanks!
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Hi Charles,
Perhaps it you check the Dallas Morning News archives there might be one of photos that was printed. Here's a younger and an older picture of Anne Donaldson.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2018/326/142371616_9ec3b5f4-61b8-4e6b-9890-6f545d7fe6d1.png)
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2018/325/142371616_26f3142a-bbfe-49f3-8b91-24fa72ef9c8e.png)
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Hi Charles,
Perhaps it you check the Dallas Morning News archives there might be one of photos that was printed. Here's a younger and an older picture of Anne Donaldson.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2018/326/142371616_9ec3b5f4-61b8-4e6b-9890-6f545d7fe6d1.png)
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2018/325/142371616_26f3142a-bbfe-49f3-8b91-24fa72ef9c8e.png)
Thanks Rick! We cannot tell about any facial features in the Altgens photo due to the camera. But the short hair and slim build do appear to be consistent with Ann Donaldson. I am not sure why, but in the photo of her in more recent years she looks somewhat familiar.
I will see if I can dig out more information on this lady. In the Altgens photo, the camera lady appears to me to already be looking towards the next vehicle in the motorcade. But perhaps she got a photo of JFK a little bit before the Altgens photo was taken.
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I was looking to see if I could find that picture she was taking and I haven't seen anything yet. If it was used for the paper it should be published in the archives. It also could be that actual photo wasn't used for any story they printed.
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I was looking to see if I could find that picture she was taking and I haven't seen anything yet. If it was used for the paper it should be published in the archives. It also could be that actual photo wasn't used for any story they printed.
Thanks!
Do you know what type of work that she did for the newspaper? I think that they might all have been part of the women’s section. I suppose that department needed a photographer from time to time. But she might also have only been making some personal photos. And if none of them seemed newsworthy, she might have just kept them for herself.
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Thanks!
Do you know what type of work that she did for the newspaper? I think that they might all have been part of the women’s section. I suppose that department needed a photographer from time to time. But she might also have only been making some personal photos. And if none of them seemed newsworthy, she might have just kept them for herself.
I was looking to see if she did any photography for the paper but I haven't found anything where she was a staff photographer. All I found so far is that she worked as a women's news reporter and later as an assistant editor covering social events. I think you're right, maybe she was snapping pictures to keep for herself, or since she was an assistant editor, it could be the photo she was taking didn't make it to press.
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Same Woman?
https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos)
https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos)
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Same Woman?
https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos)
https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos)
That’s an interesting question Duncan!
Off the top of my head, I think that the fire truck didn’t arrive until after !:00 pm. Therefore, if it is the same woman, it might not be Ann Donaldson. The reason I say that is because I believe the group of women with Woodward (according to her account) all returned to their offices only a few minutes after the assassination.
If James Hackerott sees this and is interested enough to apply his techniques to the video frames, he might be able to get some more detail of her face. Then we could compare it to Ann’s known photographs that Rick provided.
Thanks for the response Duncan!
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I am no fan of Gary Mack--I'm just sharing what he said about the woman in question.
According to Gary, the woman was "holding her purse up in front of her face to block the sun".
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I am no fan of Gary Mack--I'm just sharing what he said about the woman in question.
According to Gary, the woman was "holding her purse up in front of her face to block the sun".
It definitely appears to me to be a camera.
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I am no fan of Gary Mack--I'm just sharing what he said about the woman in question.
According to Gary, the woman was "holding her purse up in front of her face to block the sun".
Yes Garry Mack also told me that after looking at a very good copy of Altgen's 6 he had at the 6th floor museum that he could see that the woman was holding her "hand bag" up to her face to shield her eyes from the sun.
Lady "F" in the lineup
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image10~0.jpg)
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Altgens 5 taken on Houston st also shows "several spectators holding their hand up to shield their eyes from the suns glare".
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgens5Unger.jpg)
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That’s an interesting question Duncan!
Off the top of my head, I think that the fire truck didn’t arrive until after !:00 pm. Therefore, if it is the same woman, it might not be Ann Donaldson. The reason I say that is because I believe the group of women with Woodward (according to her account) all returned to their offices only a few minutes after the assassination.
If James Hackerott sees this and is interested enough to apply his techniques to the video frames, he might be able to get some more detail of her face. Then we could compare it to Ann’s known photographs that Rick provided.
Thanks for the response Duncan!
Charles, I cant do anything with the YouTube video. I believe Denis Moricet has done some work on her identification.
I did try the stacking technique to Zapruder frames showing the Woodward group, stacking the best 32 frames showing the space between Camera Lady and the woman to her right. Even without stacking it is obvious there is a dark something that could be a camera between the women’s heads. It is too small to be a purse useful for blocking the sun. It does look to me she is holding a camera in Altgens, possibly a Kodak Instamatic 100, introduced in 1963.
(https://i.imgur.com/rfs67cX.jpg)
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Yes Garry Mack also told me that after looking at a very good copy of Altgen's 6 he had at the 6th floor museum that he could see that the woman was holding her "hand bag" up to her face to shield her eyes from the sun.
Lady "F" in the lineup
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image10~0.jpg)
Thanks Robin, lady "F" in the lineup in the Zapruder frame is also what I was thinking. I was confused a little bit however by the earlier comment by Steve Barber and was thinking he was referring to the lady in the other youtube video. She definitely has a camera.
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Charles, I cant do anything with the YouTube video. I believe Denis Moricet has done some work on her identification.
I did try the stacking technique to Zapruder frames showing the Woodward group, stacking the best 32 frames showing the space between Camera Lady and the woman to her right. Even without stacking it is obvious there is a dark something that could be a camera between the women’s heads. It is too small to be a purse useful for blocking the sun. It does look to me she is holding a camera in Altgens, possibly a Kodak Instamatic 100, introduced in 1963.
(https://i.imgur.com/rfs67cX.jpg)
Thanks James, your thoughts are exactly what I was thinking initially. But after considering what was said by Gary Mack, I have take another look and believe that Gary might be correct. Please take a look at this GIF that I created:
(https://i.vgy.me/qiVQBG.gif)
I added an outline of what appears just might be a black purse. It appears to be slightly blocking a small portion of the right side of the other lady's head. And I think the purse might be being held to the right side of the "camera lady's" head in order to block the sun. The difference in the shades of "color" in the black and white photo between the purse and the "camera lady's" hair appears more obvious to me now that I have this idea in mind.
P.S. I did make an error on the top left of my outline. That corner should be cut off to match the different shades between the purse and her hair.
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Yes Garry Mack also told me that after looking at a very good copy of Altgen's 6 he had at the 6th floor museum that he could see that the woman was holding her "hand bag" up to her face to shield her eyes from the sun.
Lady "F" in the lineup
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image10~0.jpg)
Robin, would you consider that in the 4.8 seconds from Z167 to Z255 woman C (black hair) in your graphic could squeeze between woman E and F (camera woman)? Z167 being the last frame we can see she is still standing next to the hard hat man B.
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Another thought that has occurred to me is that a purse of that size would not be a first choice (for most of us) as a sunshield to be held like that for much time. And since JFK had apparently been hit by a bullet no more that thirty feet in front of those ladies, that this lady had already realized it by the time Altgens took the photo. And that she might have turned her head and put the purse up there to block her view because she just couldn't stand to watch this scene. After all, the photo is only an instant in time. And we lost sight of these ladies (in the Zapruder film) well before JFK was apparently hit. However, we can see them in Willis' photo taken about Z196.
(https://i.vgy.me/9iaOnP.jpg)
And I do not see any sign of a black purse held up to shield the sun...
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It definitely appears to me to be a camera.
And it very well could be. I see nothing that resembles a purse in her hands, but she definitely has something in her hands. Also, for someone to shield the sun from their eyes, they would normally put their hands over their eyes. A purse would be rather awkward to hold onto, judging from their size at that time. On top of this, Gary, being the egomaniac that he was, has been proved wrong regarding his observations more times than not. For example, the acoustics, Badge Man, the identity of the woman on the grass between the Newman's and the Stemmons Freeway sign. He swore that her name is was Cheryl McKinnon. In 2013, the real identity came to light and her name is Doris Mumford. She was identified by her daughter Karen, who provided proof with many photographs of her mother and you can clearly see that it is Doris Muford, not Cheryl McKinnon. However, in typical Gary Mack form, he refused to admit he was wrong, just like he did with the other three observations by him. I knew Gary very personally. He was a snake in the grass.
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Another item that I have noticed (for what it is worth) is the presence of what appears to be two purses (one light colored and one appearing to be black) sitting on the sidewalk, behind the camera lady, and in her shadow. We can see them in the Zapruder film. Here they are in a crop of Z151 (I have drawn an arrow to point them out):
(https://i.vgy.me/RLXwX5.jpg)
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Another item that I have noticed (for what it is worth) is the presence of what appears to be two purses (one light colored and one appearing to be black) sitting on the sidewalk, behind the camera lady, and in her shadow. We can see them in the Zapruder film. Here they are in a crop of Z151 (I have drawn an arrow to point them out):
(https://i.vgy.me/RLXwX5.jpg)
Agreed!
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Same Woman?
https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos)
https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/assassinationforum/videos)
Nice find! I would say the woman in the video looks very similar to Donaldson. If you notice, the chin and nose looks pretty much the same in both the photo and video. The photo was taken 5 years earlier, so her hair doesn't appear as short in the footage. If we could get a close up of a video still and compare it with the photo we could make a better identification.
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For what it is worth, the Dallas Morning News Women’s News department did have a photographer named Doris Jacoby. Doris was at the Trade Mart when the assassination occurred and went to Parkland Hospital when she found out that JFK and JBC had been taken there. She relates her account in a book published by the Dallas Morning News titled “JFK Assassination, The Reporter’s Notes. There are photographs of both Doris and Mary Elizabeth Woodward in that book.
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Nice find! I would say the woman in the video looks very similar to Donaldson. If you notice, the chin and nose looks pretty much the same in both the photo and video. The photo was taken 5 years earlier, so her hair doesn't appear as short in the footage. If we could get a close up of a video still and compare it with the photo we could make a better identification.
This film must have been captured by two different cameras because there is also black and white footage of this woman in the same position--unless this film is the black and white footage (it looks like color footage in this frame) and this woman is actually in a button down shirt with rolled up sleeves and blue jeans. I don't know who took the film(s), nor can I find the footage, but it has appeared in many documentaries over the years.
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Denis Morrissette’s blog page “Unidentified Photographers, Cameramen and Media People in Dealey Plaza” section 6 shows work credited to Linda Zambanini identifying her as Elinor Sandhorn. If the ID is good she is in the area of the reflection pool at the time of the assassination.
Section 7 has the Altgens6 camerawoman as Anne Donaldson.
https://jfkassassinationfiles.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/photos-and-films/
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Denis Morrissette’s blog page “Unidentified Photographers, Cameramen and Media People in Dealey Plaza” section 6 shows work credited to Linda Zambanini identifying her as Elinor Sandhorn. If the ID is good she is in the area of the reflection pool at the time of the assassination.
Section 7 has the Altgens6 camerawoman as Anne Donaldson.
https://jfkassassinationfiles.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/photos-and-films/
Woops! I was **WAY** wrong. Sleeves aren't rolled up, and I cant see what type of clothing she was wearing below her waste. My error and my apologies. Thanks a bunch for sharing this.
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In the book “JFK Assassination: The Reporters’ Notes”, Mary Elizabeth Woodward states that Ann Donaldson was her roommate at that point in time. I just find it very difficult to believe that if Donaldson had a camera and took any photos, that Woodward wouldn’t have said something about it in her account.
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Woops! I was **WAY** wrong. Sleeves aren't rolled up, and I cant see what type of clothing she was wearing below her waste. My error and my apologies. Thanks a bunch for sharing this.
Sure, and thanks for your Frontline story. That inspired me long before I typed “JFK” into a search engine ;)
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In the book “JFK Assassination: The Reporters’ Notes”, Mary Elizabeth Woodward states that Ann Donaldson was her roommate at that point in time. I just find it very difficult to believe that if Donaldson had a camera and took any photos, that Woodward wouldn’t have said something about it in her account.
I find that a little strange too. I wonder if any of the ancestry gurus could dig up something.
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Yes Garry Mack also told me that after looking at a very good copy of Altgen's 6 he had at the 6th floor museum that he could see that the woman was holding her "hand bag" up to her face to shield her eyes from the sun.
Lady "F" in the lineup
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image10~0.jpg)
I just partially viewed the Sixth Floor Museum’s conversation of Stephen Fagin with Mary Woodward Pillsworth November 7, 2015. At 9:30-10:15 in the YouTube video a frame of Zapruder shows Woodward and her three colleagues. Fagin highlights woman D (see Robin’s labeled frame) as Alonso, E as Woodward, F as Donaldson, and (what would be G in Robin’s key) as Maggie Brown. The link will open the video at 9:25.
East to West JFK.org
C no ID, skips woman C
D Aurelia Alonso next to white blouse woman C
E Mary Woodward Pillsworth
F Ann Donaldson Atterbury
(G) Maggie Brown Kennedy
I found a Willis5 image from 2005 of unknown origin labeled (again using Robin’s key for letter ID):
C Alonzo
D Woodward
E Donaldson
F Brown
And Don Roberdeau’s (version 10 circa 2005?) map:
C Alonzo
D Woodward
E Donaldson
F Brown
Makes my head spin. Is the woman C, with white blouse and red skirt, part of the Woodward group?
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Patricia Ann Donaldson
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I just partially viewed the Sixth Floor Museum’s conversation of Steven Fagin with Mary Woodward Pillsworth November 7, 2015. At 9:30-10:15 in the YouTube video a frame of Zapruder shows Woodward and her three colleagues. Fagin highlights woman D (see Robin’s labeled frame) as Alonso, E as Woodward, F as Donaldson, and (what would be G in Robin’s key) as Maggie Brown. The link will open the video at 9:25.
East to West JFK.org
C no ID, skips woman C
D Aurelia Alonso next to white blouse woman C
E Mary Woodward Pillsworth
F Ann Donaldson Atterbury
(G) Maggie Brown Kennedy
I found a Willis5 image from 2005 of unknown origin labeled (again using Robin’s key for letter ID):
C Alonzo
D Woodward
E Donaldson
F Brown
And Don Roberdeau’s (version 10 circa 2005?) map:
C Alonzo
D Woodward
E Donaldson
F Brown
Makes my head spin. Is the woman C, with white blouse and red skirt, part of the Woodward group?
Wow, that is one of the best oral history interviews that I have seen. Thanks for posting it!
The photo that is shown in the early part of the interview of Woodward on the phone trying to contact Fidel Castro (a couple of years before the assassination) seems like a very ironic coincidence to me.
As far as who is who in the Zapruder frame, my opinion would have to be to agree with Stephen Fagin’s version. Mary appears to agree with it, and I believe she should know who is who. Also, I think that the one in the white blouse and red skirt apparently was not part of Woodward’s group. She only talks about four of them and that they all were relatively young.
One thing that I have noticed with the Willis photo, is that Margaret Brown is not seen. Could it be that she has turned around and bent down to retrieve the two purses behind Donaldson?
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Patricia Ann Donaldson
It sure seems to me that someone should have asked Donaldson whether or not she had a camera. But even without that question being asked and answered, it sure seems to me that she would have said something about it if she had one….
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Patricia Ann Donaldson
Who is that interviewing “Ann Donaldson”?
It might just be me, but the lady in this video doesn’t resemble the Ann Donaldson we see in the two photos posted on page one of this thread, or the Ann Donaldson we see in the oral history video of Mary Woodward done by the Sixth Floor Museum and Steven Fagin! ???
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Who is that interviewing “Ann Donaldson”?
It might just be me, but the lady in this video doesn’t resemble the Ann Donaldson we see in the two photos posted on page one of this thread, or the Ann Donaldson we see in the oral history video of Mary Woodward done by the Sixth Floor Museum and Steven Fagin! ???
Fagin says in the Woodward video that Ann gave her oral history in 2003, then died in 2009. Donaldson was interviewed by Max Holland for the Lost Bullet program. My DVD of the Lost Bullet was copyrighted in 2011. It’s possible her Lost Bullet interview was recorded years before the final program was completed and shown on TV.
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Fagin says in the Woodward video that Ann gave her oral history in 2003, then died in 2009. Donaldson was interviewed by Max Holland for the Lost Bullet program. My DVD of the Lost Bullet was copyrighted in 2011. It’s possible her Lost Bullet interview was recorded years before the final program was completed and shown on TV.
Compare the noses on the photos and Sixth Floor Museum interview to the nose of the woman in Max Holland’s interview. Also, we don’t see where that woman says she was standing on 11/22/63 in the Holland interview. The video that Duncan linked to leads me to believe that she might have indicated that she was standing where she was being interviewed. ???
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John Martin’s film contribution to the DCA film in Robert Groden’s Assassination Films is of poor quality. Along with fuzzy images the frames are under exposed. I did ask to see the Sixth Floor Museums Reading Room version of the DCA film but, although they have original film box, the Martin images are essentially black! Groden seems to have done a good job giving us what we do have.
In one scene, from S Elm he filmed the N pergola grassy area and included several witnesses congregated near the Thornton sign and street light. This group seems to include at least some of the “Woodward Group” (source unknown). One woman in a dark clothing (3) is holding a purse at waist level and (in early frames) seems to have her hand to her face to shield the sun. I made this animation to study this woman.
The animation proves that lady (3) is not the source of the sun shielding arm/hand. There is someone (4) mostly hidden behind (2) and (3). As (4) shifts rightward during the short animation the raised arm is obscured by the head of (3). For a few frames (4)’s legs are visible shifting rightward between the legs of (3).
Anyway, this animation might be of interest to some.
(https://i.imgur.com/drPj7xo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/j0uwNC0.gif)
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John Martin’s film contribution to the DCA film in Robert Groden’s Assassination Films is of poor quality. Along with fuzzy images the frames are under exposed. I did ask to see the Sixth Floor Museums Reading Room version of the DCA film but, although they have original film box, the Martin images are essentially black! Groden seems to have done a good job giving us what we do have.
In one scene, from S Elm he filmed the N pergola grassy area and included several witnesses congregated near the Thornton sign and street light. This group seems to include at least some of the “Woodward Group” (source unknown). One woman in a dark clothing (3) is holding a purse at waist level and (in early frames) seems to have her hand to her face to shield the sun. I made this animation to study this woman.
The animation proves that lady (3) is not the source of the sun shielding arm/hand. There is someone (4) mostly hidden behind (2) and (3). As (4) shifts rightward during the short animation the raised arm is obscured by the head of (3). For a few frames (4)’s legs are visible shifting rightward between the legs of (3).
Anyway, this animation might be of interest to some.
(https://i.imgur.com/drPj7xo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/j0uwNC0.gif)
Well done James, thanks!
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Quote from: James Hackerott on Today at 03:56:49 AM
"One woman in a dark clothing (3) is holding a purse at waist"
Or could it be a Camera case? :-\
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Bagcrop.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Bag.gif)
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This film must have been captured by two different cameras because there is also black and white footage of this woman in the same position--unless this film is the black and white footage (it looks like color footage in this frame) and this woman is actually in a button down shirt with rolled up sleeves and blue jeans. I don't know who took the film(s), nor can I find the footage, but it has appeared in many documentaries over the years.
Yeah possibly or they could have colorized one copy like they do for some film footage. I'll see if I can find anything on who took the footage.