JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on February 06, 2022, 03:33:07 AM
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From Capt Will Fritz' and SAIC Forrest Sorrels' notes...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=1
Oswald claimed that upon leaving the TSBD from the front [south door] he encountered a guy [asking for the nearest telephone] who showed him an ID [Secret Service he thought] Actually there were two.... [WFAA Dallas radio reporters Pierce Allman and Terrence Ford] who were looking for a phone. Oswald was recorded directing such.
This is supported by WC Document 354 page 4----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10755#relPageId=4
This was also verified by non other than Postal Insp. Harry Holmes-----
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0155b.htm
By their estimation, the reporters determined that their phone business was about 3 minutes after the last shot was heard and they had bailed from their camera car.
What is theory ...is that Lee Oswald after shooting at the motorcade unobserved managed to stow away a rifle...negotiate down to the 2nd floor lunchroom unobserved....encounter Ofc Baker and Mr Truly...then gallivant to and down the front staircase where he directed the news guys to the telephone. This was at the FRONT door.
All under or about 3 minutes :-\
Wasn't that nice of someone who was so desperate to 'escape' that he took time to give some telephone directions to these reporters?
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From Capt Will Fritz' and SAIC Forrest Sorrels' notes...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=1
Oswald claimed that upon leaving the TSBD from the front [south door] he encountered a guy [asking for the nearest telephone] who showed him an ID [Secret Service he thought] Actually there were two.... [WFAA Dallas radio reporters Pierce Allman and Terrence Ford] who were looking for a phone. Oswald was recorded directing such.
This is supported by WC Document 354 page 4----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10755#relPageId=4
This was also verified by non other than Postal Insp. Harry Holmes-----
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0155b.htm
By their estimation, the reporters determined that their phone business was about 3 minutes after the last shot was heard and they had bailed from their camera car.
What is theory ...is that Lee Oswald after shooting at the motorcade unobserved managed to stow away a rifle...negotiate down to the 2nd floor lunchroom unobserved....encounter Ofc Baker and Mr Truly...then gallivant to and down the front staircase where he directed the news guys to the telephone. This was at the FRONT door.
All under or about 3 minutes :-\
Wasn't that nice of someone who was so desperate to 'escape' that he took time to give some telephone directions to these reporters?
Excellent post, Mr Freeman!
The plot thickens further when we factor in the full story Postal Inspector Holmes heard Mr Oswald tell:
BEFORE the encounter at the front entrance with the man looking for a telephone, Mr Oswald had an encounter at that same front entrance with a police officer and the building superintendent Mr Roy Truly.
Mr Truly could not possibly have gone up to the roof, come back down again and gone back to the front entrance BEFORE the man came running up the steps looking for a telephone. Therefore Mr Oswald was already at the front entrance when Officer Baker and Mr Truly went rushing in just after the shots
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Excellent post, Mr Freeman!
The plot thickens further when we factor in the full story Postal Inspector Holmes heard Mr Oswald tell:
BEFORE the encounter at the front entrance with the man looking for a telephone, Mr Oswald had an encounter at that same front entrance with a police officer and the building superintendent Mr Roy Truly.
Mr Truly could not possibly have gone up to the roof, come back down again and gone back to the front entrance BEFORE the man came running up the steps looking for a telephone. Therefore Mr Oswald was already at the front entrance when Officer Baker and Mr Truly went rushing in just after the shots
I believe that this 'superintendent' was actually Bill Shelley. One--He was there. Two-- He did not want to be involved. Three---he lied about not seeing Oswald. Four--the janitor who mentions him regarded Shelley as a Supervisor.
Five--Truly was on the roof with Baker at the time. Additionally, the cop mentioned at the front door was Patrolman Welcome Barnett.
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I believe that this 'superintendent' was actually Bill Shelley. One--He was there. Two-- He did not want to be involved. Three---he lied about not seeing Oswald. Four--the janitor who mentions him regarded Shelley as a Supervisor.
Five--Truly was on the roof with Baker at the time. Additionally, the cop mentioned at the front door was Patrolman Welcome Barnett.
Baker and Truly enter the building within seconds of the assassination, the encounter with Allman was 3 - 4 minutes later. It's not possible for it to be an encounter between Baker and Oswald.
Was Shelley in the lobby 3 - 4 minutes after the shots?
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I believe that this 'superintendent' was actually Bill Shelley.
Mr Truly was the building superintendent (Mr Holmes' testimony) and Mr Oswald's boss (Mr Holmes' interrogation report).
And, according to One--He was there. Two-- He did not want to be involved. Three---he lied about not seeing Oswald. Four--the janitor who mentions him regarded Shelley as a Supervisor.
Supervisor is not the same thing as building superintendent. Mr Truly was the building superintendent.
Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman he saw Mr Oswald in an exchange at the front door with an officer and Mr Truly---------just as Mr Holmes has Mr Oswald saying. And just as DPD were telling the press 11/22:
(https://i.imgur.com/zdJzh8y.jpg)
Officer Baker did not in fact 'challenge' or 'confront' or 'stop' Mr Oswald-----------he was simply looking for someone who worked there to show him the way to the stairs. Mr Oswald confirmed he worked there. Had Mr Truly not come running up those front steps and volunteered to assist Officer Baker, the man who escorted Officer Baker to the rear stairs would have been-----------Mr Lee Harvey Oswald
Five--Truly was on the roof with Baker at the time. Additionally, the cop mentioned at the front door was Patrolman Welcome Barnett.
I'm afraid this doesn't work...............
Mr. LIEBELER - How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. BARNETT - It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER - From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you let anybody out of the building after you got there?
Mr. BARNETT - No, sir; until they were authorized.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who was in a position to authorize people to come in and out?
Mr. BARNETT - Well, of course, for sometime no one left except city, county, and Federal officers, and then after the people in the building were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought to the door by a lieutenant, which I don't remember his name, but that was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let them out.
If Officer Barnett was already at the front entrance stopping non-authorized people go in or come out, how did
--------------a pressman get past him going in?
--------------Mr Oswald get past him going out?
Mr Oswald had his encounter with the pressman BEFORE Officer Barnett went to the front entrance in order to keep non-authorized people from going in or coming out. This happened within the window of time described by Officer Barnett here:
Mr. BARNETT - That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door.
Thumb1:
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Baker and Truly enter the building within seconds of the assassination, the encounter with Allman was 3 - 4 minutes later. It's not possible for it to be an encounter between Baker and Oswald.
Why, pray, is it not possible?
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Mr Truly was the building superintendent...
The 'superintendent' allegation was made by a third party [or a hearsay comment]
Chief Curry wasn't there so he can't state first hand who was.
Consider---Mr. BALL - That's Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - What is his position with Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. LOVELADY - He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly.
Mr. BALL - Is he a foreman?
Mr. LOVELADY - I guess you would call it that......
According to the Fritz notes [linked above] ...Oswald stated that he was "out front with Shelley".
Don't get too hung up on semantics when dealing with various statements and allegations.
Further----Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Lovelady was about to say "and right behind me....." Who? Who was right behind him?
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Moreover-----
Barnett's statements were riddled with inconsistencies [covering his backside]
So why believe him?
What's more...I am not suggesting that Prayer Man is Oswald.
Who is this woman?-----
(https://i.ibb.co/dJKnDgm/Screenshot-2022-02-06-at-08-20-23-DEATH-OF-THE-LUNCHROOM-HOAX-Final-pdf.png)
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Baker and Truly enter the building within seconds of the assassination
Not according to Shelley, it was 3-4 minutes later.
The Couch/Darnell films show Baker approaching the TSBD steps within seconds of the assassination.
Multiple reenactments had Baker on the steps within seconds of the assassination.
Joe Molina reports seeing Truly entering the building "20 to 30 seconds" after the assassination.
Pauline Sanders reports seeing a white helmeted police officer (Baker) coming up the steps seconds after the assassination.
Shelley's and Lovelady's statements that at least 3 minutes had elapsed before they saw Baker approach the TSBD steps are lies (that is to say, demonstrable falsehoods). In my opinion, these lies are part of a strategy to obfuscate the movements of these men regarding their re-entrance into the TSBD through the west door.
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You should know by now where you can stick the WC "reenactments".
Molina AND Piper saw NO white helmet policeman with Truly.
I know what you mean about the reenactments but when certain details are corroborated independently we can assume the accuracy of that particular part of the reenactment.
The testimonies of Truly and Baker have them at the steps within seconds.
This is confirmed (as far as Baker is concerned) by the Couch/Darnell films.
Sanders statement that she saw Baker arriving within seconds is further confirmation of this aspect of the reenactment.
Molina's testimony regarding how quickly Truly entered the TSBD is also confirmation of this aspect of the reenactment.
We have multiple witness testimonies and film evidence that this aspect of the reenactment - how quickly Baker and Truly arrived at the steps - is accurate.
That Molina didn't report seeing Baker is neither here nor there. It hardly undermines the complex of interlocking evidence that Baker and Truly arrived at TSBD steps within seconds.
I do find it interesting that Shelley would team up with Lovelady and throw Truly under the bus.
The more startling aspect of the "3 minute" statements by Shelley and Lovelady is that they weren't questioned about them. These statements contradict the various witness statements we have seen. They contradict the film evidence we have seen. But, most importantly, they contradict the WC's own reenactment of the event!!
The only reason the "3 minute" statements went unquestioned, as far as I can see, is that this testimony was used to undermine Victoria Adams' testimony about how quickly she and Styles were on the back stairs.
It is one of dozens of examples that demonstrate what a whitewash the WC hearings were.
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Molina doesn't exactly interlock, he neither saw nor heard Baker's request.
Piper doesn't exactly interlock, interacted with Truly but no sign of Baker.
Frazier doesn't exactly interlock, he was there for a few minutes and didn't see Baker.
Baker doesn't interlock because "the building manager" was already in the lobby.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
It's clearly one of those things we're going to have to agree to disagree upon.
Molina doesn't exactly interlock, he neither saw nor heard Baker's request.
Molina definitely "interlocks" as he confirms that Truly was at the steps 20 to 30 seconds after the assassination, a key aspect of the reenactments. This is confirmed by the testimonies of both Baker and Truly. I don't see how Molina not seeing Baker means Baker wasn't there. I don't get it, particularly when the Couch/Darnell films show Baker approaching the steps seconds after the assassination. Baker is also witnessed by Sanders at the steps seconds after the assassination. Sanders does not report seeing Truly. Does that mean he wasn't there?
Piper doesn't exactly interlock, interacted with Truly but no sign of Baker.
This is from Piper's WC testimony:
"...the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the boss-man and a policeman or someone."
No sign of Baker? Then who was the policeman Piper reports seeing?
Piper's testimony does "interlock" as he reports Truly "and a policeman" entering the TSBD after the shots were fired.
Frazier has nothing to contribute. He doesn't report seeing Truly or Baker. That doesn't mean they weren't there.
As for Truly already being in the lobby when Baker got there...we're definitely going to have to disagree about your interpretation of that. The Couch/Darnell films show Baker passing Truly outside the steps. It seems more than possible that Truly followed Baker up to the lobby and spoke to him then.
Obviously. you have something else in mind for this aspect of the case.
I have to disagree that, just because Molina doesn't report seeing Baker, this means Baker wasn't there.
Or that, just because Sanders doesn't report seeing Truly, this means Truly wasn't there.
Sanders reports seeing Baker at the steps seconds after the assassination.
Molina reports seeing Truly at the steps seconds after the assassination.
Both Truly and Baker testify they were at the steps seconds after the assassination.
The Couch/Darnell films confirm this.
My interpretation of this evidence is that Truly and Baker were at the steps seconds after the assassination. I feel this is a fair and reasonable interpretation. You have provided no coherent argument against this interpretation so we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.
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When the words are stated... policeman at the front door... it is not necessarily Baker that is meant.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time of the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to repeat that?
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it.
Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."
The 'super' mentioned there had to be Shelley who had returned from the rail yards....
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
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The 'superintendent' allegation was made by a third party [or a hearsay comment]
I thought you valued what Insp. Holmes had to say (see your OP)? Suddenly we can't use him to 'verify' anything?
Chief Curry wasn't there so he can't state first hand who was.
He was given the information about an encounter between Mr Oswald, an officer and Mr Truly--------------the same information Mr Oswald was giving in custody, and the same information Mr Lovelady shared with Mr Jarman shortly after the shooting. No coincidence!
Consider---According to the Fritz notes [linked above] ...Oswald stated that he was "out front with Shelley".
The 'Fritz notes' are worthless-------just jottings based on Agent Bookhout's reports.
But yes, Mr Oswald was out front for the P. Parade and standing near Mr Shelley
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Molina doesn't exactly interlock, he neither saw nor heard Baker's request.
Piper doesn't exactly interlock, interacted with Truly but no sign of Baker.
Frazier doesn't exactly interlock, he was there for a few minutes and didn't see Baker.
Baker doesn't interlock because "the building manager" was already in the lobby.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
Not a SINGLE PERSON on those steps said they remembered seeing BOTH Officer Baker AND Mr Truly go inside the Depository. Only ONE person (Ms Sanders) saw Officer Baker go through the front door. Only ONE person (Mr Molina) saw Mr Truly go through the front door. There's a simple reason for this bizarre circumstance--------------anyone who saw both men go inside also saw something else
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When the words are stated... policeman at the front door... it is not necessarily Baker that is meant.
What makes it Officer Baker is the fact that
a) Mr Truly was present also
b) this happened before the pressman ran up the steps and asked Mr Oswald for the nearest telephone
Does Mr Allman say anything anywhere about having to get past a cop at the front door? No---------because Officer Barnett had not stationed himself there yet
The 'super' mentioned there had to be Shelley who had returned from the rail yards....
Nope.
Mr Shelley was not
--------------the "superintendent of the place"/"boss" (Mr Holmes)
--------------the "building manager" (Chief Curry)
--------------"Mr Truly" (Mr Lovelady)
By the way, I think this may possibly be Mr Shelley in Darnell, just after his encounter with Ms Gloria Calvery:
(https://i.imgur.com/MJ4aTPj.jpg)
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I thought you valued what Insp. Holmes had to say (see your OP)? Suddenly we can't use him to 'verify' anything?
Holmes was not there at the TSBD at that time so he cannot verify anything except what Oswald supposedly said in interrogation.
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Holmes was not there at the TSBD at that time so he cannot verify anything except what Oswald supposedly said in interrogation.
Well, fine----------------but Mr Holmes' account of what Mr Oswald said (including his reference to his "boss" or "superintendent of the place") chimes with what Chief Curry and Mr Lovelady said: front entrance encounter with a policeman and Mr Truly.
The fact that not a single person on those steps said they noticed both Officer Baker and Mr Truly go inside is both utterly bizarre and perfectly explicable
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1. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom and buys a coke
2. Mr Oswald returns to one to eat
3. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch the P. Parade
4. Officer Baker rushes up steps and asks for someone who works there to show him the stairs: Mr Oswald says 'I work here'
5. Mr Truly comes up and takes over
6. Mr Oswald remains at entrance a little while longer
7. A pressman comes running up steps and Mr Oswald points him to the nearest telephone
8. Mr Oswald goes down the steps and leaves the building just before Officer Barnett positions himself at the front door
The 'investigating' authorities will go to quite extraordinary lengths to bury the above simple sequence of events
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As every past generation has had to disenthrall itself from an inheritance of truisms and stereotypes, so in our time we must move on from the reassuring repetition of stale phrases to a new, difficult, but essential confrontation with reality.
For the great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Too often we hold fast to the clichés of our forebears. We subject all facts to a prefabricated set of interpretations. We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
John F Kennedy 1962 Yale commencement ........
Almost like a premonition huh?
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Sorry that I overlooked your half-assed interlocking witness Paulene Sanders.
No need to apologise as you've spotted your error.
The Sanders "interlock" is not half-assed by any means. This is from her FBI statement from 24th:
"...she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building..."
In this statement Sanders emphasises the speed which Baker arrives at the steps, a matter of seconds. She reveals that he was running and she also reveals that he ran straight into the building. This is confirmed by Baker's own testimony. Truly's testimony. And, most importantly, the Couch/Darnell films. How anyone could possibly doubt whether Baker was at the steps within seconds of the assassination is beyond me. I note your use of the phrase "half-assed" has no bearing on the quality of the witness statement so I assume it goes against your own beliefs on this particular aspect of the case, which makes this solid eye-witness testimony "half-assed" (and not your own interpretation of events)
Sanders statement that she saw Baker arriving within seconds is further confirmation of this aspect of the reenactment.
"Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. (...)"
So which of them totally bungled the story as Reid MUST have gotten it from Truly? To Sanders this story would make no sense if she had seen any sign of Truly trailing Baker. Any sign!
I've pointed out Sanders' testimony confirms that Baker arrived at the steps within seconds of the assassination. Which it does. This is further corroborated by Baker's own testimony and the Couch/Darnell films. Three independently corroborating pieces of evidence.
You counter this with some third-hand hearsay that has no bearing on Baker's arrival time at the steps.
We know from the Couch/Darnell films that Truly was not in the 2nd floor lunchroom with Oswald so we're dealing with something that was lost in translation. Maybe Reid misunderstood what Truly was saying, maybe Sanders misunderstood what Reid was saying, maybe the FBI misunderstood what Sanders was saying.
What we can be sure of is that this is a garbled account of the encounter between Baker and Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom that Reid got from Truly, probably on the Saturday.
I do love the drama of the last line:
"To Sanders this story would make no sense if she had seen any sign of Truly trailing Baker. Any sign!"[my emphasis]
Again, you seem to be implying Truly wasn't at the steps within seconds of the assassination but we have independent corroboration from Molina that he was. Not sure where you're going with that. Sanders confirms Baker got there within seconds and Molina confirms Truly got there within seconds. Not sure what the problem is.
BTW, how do you confirm a fake reenactment? It was nothing but a time trial to get Baker and Oswald to the second floor at the same time, hypothetically.
Not sure about the logic being used here either.
If the WC reenactment was a fake time trial why not add on ten seconds in the lobby and another ten seconds dithering at the elevators?
This would've given Oswald plenty of time to get from the 6th floor to the second floor lunchroom by the time Baker and Truly got there, rather than the three second window they allowed themselves.
This extra time could account for why Oswald was so calm and composed, why he wasn't out of breath.
This extra time could account for Brennan's and Euins' observation that the shooter lingered.at the window.
This extra time would've meant Oswald had a realistic amount of time to wipe the rifle clean.
His lack of hurry could account for why the three men on the 5th didn't hear him rushing across the floor inches above their heads after Norman had heard the hulls hitting the floor.
In reenacting the movements of Baker and Truly as accurately as possible the WC totally shot themselves in the foot. This is why the detail of Oswald already having a Coke in his hand had to be cut out, because the 3 second window they allowed themselves wouldn't allow for Oswald buying a Coke.
All the WC had to do was add a few seconds on. But they didn't. They allowed Baker and Truly to reenact their movements as accurately as possible and this caused a huge problem for them. One that could've gone away if they'd actually faked the reenactment.
Clearly, you view all this in a completely different way, the logic of which eludes me.
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Sorry that I overlooked your half-assed interlocking witness Paulene Sanders.
Sanders statement that she saw Baker arriving within seconds is further confirmation of this aspect of the reenactment.
"Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. (...)"
I've highlighted some of this text, Mr Beck, because there's a curious similarity between this and the wording of Agent Bookhout's first SOLO interrogation report:
OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.
Both versions would seem to have Mr Oswald and Mr Truly in the lunchroom at the same time... and then a policeman comes in... and then the policeman leaves the lunchroom ALONE and continues his search, leaving Mr Oswald and Mr Truly still in the lunchroom
Now! From Mrs Jeraldean Reid's WC testimony:
Mr. Belin.
Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. Reid.
I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. Belin.
All right.
Mrs. Reid.
I can't remember the time they left.
Has she just let something slip here? She confirms that there were men (plural) in the lunchroom during lunchbreak before the motorcade. One wonders who they could have been......... Was Mr Joe Molina one of them? Apart from him, I can't think of anyone other than Mr Oswald or Mr Truly............
Could it possibly be that there WAS a second-floor lunchroom incident but that it happened BEFORE the assassination-----------and was seen by Ms Reid and others? A police officer (not Motorcycle Officer Baker) or a 'police officer' was checking out----or pretending to check out----the building ahead of the motorcade's arrival?
Far-fetched? Well, consider this: Chief Jesse Curry told the press 11/23/63 that the first officer into the building "found Oswald among other persons in a lunchroom" (New York Times, 11/24/63)
This would go a long way towards aligning the Hosty draft interrogation report with the Bookhout solo report:
1. Visit to lunchroom before motorcade
2. Down to first floor
3. Goes outside to watch P. Parade--standing beside Mr Shelley
The weasel words in the Bookhout report that fudge the timeline would then be those in bold below:
OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.
"At the time of the search..." - this is a mighty odd way of saying "Just after the shooting". I mean, the post-assassination search took a long time. The wording here arguably suggests a search that took place inside a much more defined period of time.............
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I've highlighted some of this text, Mr Beck, because there's a curious similarity between this and the wording of Agent Bookhout's first SOLO interrogation report:
OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.
Both versions would seem to have Mr Oswald and Mr Truly in the lunchroom at the same time... and then a policeman comes in... and then the policeman leaves the lunchroom ALONE and continues his search, leaving Mr Oswald and Mr Truly still in the lunchroom
Now! From Mrs Jeraldean Reid's WC testimony:
Mr. Belin.
Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. Reid.
I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. Belin.
All right.
Mrs. Reid.
I can't remember the time they left.
Has she just let something slip here? She confirms that there were men (plural) in the lunchroom during lunchbreak before the motorcade. One wonders who they could have been......... Was Mr Joe Molina one of them? Apart from him, I can't think of anyone other than Mr Oswald or Mr Truly............
Could it possibly be that there WAS a second-floor lunchroom incident but that it happened BEFORE the assassination-----------and was seen by Ms Reid and others? A police officer (not Motorcycle Officer Baker) or a 'police officer' was checking out----or pretending to check out----the building ahead of the motorcade's arrival?
Far-fetched? Well, consider this: Chief Jesse Curry told the press 11/23/63 that the first officer into the building "found Oswald among other persons in a lunchroom" (New York Times, 11/24/63)
This would go a long way towards aligning the Hosty draft interrogation report with the Bookhout solo report:
1. Visit to lunchroom before motorcade
2. Down to first floor
3. Goes outside to watch P. Parade--standing beside Mr Shelley
The weasel words in the Bookhout report that fudge the timeline would then be those in bold below:
OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.
"At the time of the search..." - this is a mighty odd way of saying "Just after the shooting". I mean, the post-assassination search took a long time. The wording here arguably suggests a search that took place inside a much more defined period of time.............
Just so we've all got this straight...
Baker goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom
There are two men he's never seen before eating lunch.
Baker pulls his gun on one of them
The other says "It's OK, he's with me."
So Baker leaves.
Even for you this is out there. Thumb1:
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Just so we've all got this straight...
Baker goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom
There are two men he's never seen before eating lunch.
Baker pulls his gun on one of them
The other says "It's OK, he's with me."
So Baker leaves.
No, Mr O'Meara, you haven't got this straight. Have a little nap and then try again Thumb1:
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No, Mr O'Meara, you haven't got this straight. Have a little nap and then try again Thumb1:
You forgot to tell me where I was going wrong with your latest theory.
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You forgot to tell me where I was going wrong with your latest theory.
Your first line is baloney. Looks like you didn't feel the need to read what I wrote properly. Ho hum
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Your first line is baloney. Looks like you didn't feel the need to read what I wrote properly. Ho hum
You wrote:
"Both versions would seem to have Mr Oswald and Mr Truly in the lunchroom at the same time... and then a policeman comes in... and then the policeman leaves the lunchroom ALONE and continues his search, leaving Mr Oswald and Mr Truly still in the lunchroom."
I wrote:
"Baker goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom
There are two men he's never seen before eating lunch.
Please explain to us all how this is different. Thumb1:
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You wrote:
"Both versions would seem to have Mr Oswald and Mr Truly in the lunchroom at the same time... and then a policeman comes in... and then the policeman leaves the lunchroom ALONE and continues his search, leaving Mr Oswald and Mr Truly still in the lunchroom."
I wrote:
"Baker goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom
There are two men he's never seen before eating lunch.
Please explain to us all how this is different. Thumb1:
I write: "A police officer (not Motorcycle Officer Baker)"
You read this as: Baker
::)
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Did we ever get a count of witnesses in the lobby who DID see Truly hook up with Baker?
Not a single one! Which is most curious considering Officer Baker's affidavit account-------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJhcD731/Marrion-Baker-Affidavit-lobby.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Who exactly were the "several people standing around" and how on earth did none of them remember the officer asking them where the stairs were?
There is a simple answer: these several people standing around were not in the lobby but out on the landing, and Mr Oswald was one of them
Thumb1:
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Literally only one person said they recalled actually seeing Mr Truly go through the front door, and that person had no recollection of a white-helmeted police officer:
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn’t see a police officer. I don’t recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in ; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterward
And! Mr Molina would tell the HSCA that Mr Truly was "the only person that I can recall that went into the building while I was standing there". Remember--------the door was right behind him. So: how in the heck could there have been "several people standing around" in the lobby by the time Officer Baker went through the front door? Who could these people have been? And how do we reconcile Mr Molina's account with what Officer Baker told the WC: "As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered"?
Once again, there is a simple answer: Officer Baker's same-day affidavit statement is actually talking about several people who were standing around----i.e. still standing around----on the landing. It was here that he had his encounter with Mr Oswald
Thumb1:
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Did we ever get a count of witnesses in the lobby who DID see Truly hook up with Baker?
The following witnesses saw Truly and Baker together
"Mr. Ball: By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. Lovelady: As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building."
"Mr. Ball: Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island."
"Mr. PIPER. I heard one shot, and then the next shot went off---the one that shot him and I got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the boss-man [Truly] and a policeman or someone."
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Not a single one! Which is most curious considering Officer Baker's affidavit account-------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJhcD731/Marrion-Baker-Affidavit-lobby.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Who exactly were the "several people standing around" and how on earth did none of them remember the officer asking them where the stairs were?
There is a simple answer: these several people standing around were not in the lobby but out on the landing, and Mr Oswald was one of them
Thumb1:
There is a simple answer: these several people standing around were not in the lobby but out on the landing, and Mr Oswald was one of them
:D
How is that simple? It leads to a host of questions and the assumption various people were lying.
The simple answer is that none of the people in the lobby were asked to give a statement about what went on in the lobby.
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There is a simple answer: these several people standing around were not in the lobby but out on the landing, and Mr Oswald was one of them
:D
How is that simple? It leads to a host of questions and the assumption various people were lying.
The simple answer is that none of the people in the lobby were asked to give a statement about what went on in the lobby.
Which people in the lobby? Can you name even one of them?
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Some storytelling going on....
Yep! And then there's the remarkably tense moment in the 'London Trial' when Mr Gerry Spence shows Mr Baker the Altgens photograph-------------although we know the man shown in the doorway is Mr Lovelady, Officer Baker obviously does not. He says the man looks like Mr Oswald------and gives no impression that such would be a strange thing. Because he knows the front entrance was where he really encountered Mr Oswald.
And that's the key to the fictitious second-floor lunchroom story: the location chosen was somewhere Mr Oswald COULD physically have reached in time from the front entrance. CYA insurance in case photographic or eyewitness proof should emerge that Mr Oswald really did go outside to watch the P. Parade and was at the front entrance when Officer Baker went running up those front steps.
Thumb1:
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After Calvary came up, about 3 minutes.
2-4 minutes after shots.
Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
Lobby count equals zero confirmed.
Thumb1:
Thank you, Mr Beck. It seems Mr O'Meara is still struggling with those reading comprehension issues of his!
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OSWALD stated that at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.
"At the time of the search..." - this is a mighty odd way of saying "Just after the shooting".
Why? Maybe Oswald didn't actually hear any shooting. He see's a cop and presumes some kind of search is underway. Simple.
Like the Commission...you are trying to reach a conclusion that can't be proven.
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Why? Maybe Oswald didn't actually hear any shooting. He see's a cop and presumes some kind of search is underway. Simple.
So how do you explain this in the Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, which covers the same interrogation session?-----------------
"OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building"
And how do you explain this in Agent Hosty's draft report for the selfsame session?---------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJTt216n/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Via the phrase "At the time of the search...", Agent Bookhout's later solo report skirts around the relationship between Mr Oswald's claimed movements and the time of the assassination, and with good reason---------------the report is putting into the now dead Mr Oswald's mouth confirmation of a post-assassination lunchroom encounter invented by the 'investigating' authorities desperate to pin the shooting on Mr Oswald
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So how do you explain this in the Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, which covers the same interrogation session?-----------------
"OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building"
And how do you explain this in Agent Hosty's draft report for the selfsame session?---------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJTt216n/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Via the phrase "At the time of the search...", Agent Bookhout's later solo report skirts around the relationship between Mr Oswald's claimed movements and the time of the assassination, and with good reason---------------the report is putting into the now dead Mr Oswald's mouth confirmation of a post-assassination lunchroom encounter invented by the 'investigating' authorities desperate to pin the shooting on Mr Oswald
Oswald is in the domino room having his lunch when Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD
Minutes later the assassination takes place while he is still in the domino room
Oswald goes up to the 2nd floor to get a Coke to have with his lunch
Has the encounter with Baker
Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it
That's why, when asked by Inspector Kelley if he'd actually seen the parade, Oswald answers that he didn't see it.
When he gets to the front lobby he talks with Bill Shelley
As a result of that conversation Oswald decides to leave the TSBD.
On his through the lobby Allman asks where the phone is
When he gets to the door an officer confronts him
Bill Shelley vouches for Oswald
Away he goes
Thumb1:
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Oswald is in the domino room having his lunch when Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD
Minutes later the assassination takes place while he is still in the domino room
Oswald goes up to the 2nd floor to get a Coke to have with his lunch
Has the encounter with Baker
Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it
:D
So when an officer sticks a gun in his stomach he thinks what exactly, Mr O'Meara?
And when Mr Oswald hears Ms Reid tell him someone shot the President he thinks what exactly, Mr O'Meara?
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:D
So when an officer sticks a gun in his stomach he thinks what exactly, Mr O'Meara?
And when Mr Oswald hears Ms Reid tell him someone shot the President he thinks what exactly, Mr O'Meara?
He thinks it's time to get the f%ck out of Dodge.
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He thinks it's time to get the f%ck out of Dodge.
So the way he gets the f%ck out of Dodge is, according to you, as follows:
"Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it"
:D
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So the way he gets the f%ck out of Dodge is, according to you, as follows:
"Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it"
:D
;D
I forgot I should never be flippant with you. When you ask:
"So when an officer sticks a gun in his stomach he thinks what exactly, Mr O'Meara?"
The answer is, nobody knows only Oswald. You don't know, I don't know, nobody does.
What's the point in speculating?
My opinion, at the moment, is that Oswald was deeply involved in the events of that day but I don't know to what extent.
Maybe he wasn't phased by Baker at all as he knew police were going to be swarming the building at some point.
Maybe he was slightly freaked out by Reid, hearing the president was shot.
Who knows?
The following scenario was based on the various statements Oswald was reported to have made:
Oswald is in the domino room having his lunch when Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD
Minutes later the assassination takes place while he is still in the domino room
Oswald goes up to the 2nd floor to get a Coke to have with his lunch
Has the encounter with Baker
Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it
That's why, when asked by Inspector Kelley if he'd actually seen the parade, Oswald answers that he didn't see it.
When he gets to the front lobby he talks with Bill Shelley
As a result of that conversation Oswald decides to leave the TSBD.
On his through the lobby Allman asks where the phone is
When he gets to the door an officer confronts him
Bill Shelley vouches for Oswald
Away he goes
This scenario does a good job of taking all his various statements into account.
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Stanton apparently did not see Baker rushing up the steps just past her location at the east side of the center rail ( both hands raised shading her face in Altgens photo 6).
This may be due to her looking in the direction of Gloria Cavalry on the west side of the handrail just as Buel W. Frazier was.
Joe Molina was on the steps on the west side of the handrail it seems since he also did not see Baker , and only saw Truly.
This may be because Truly may have gone up the west side of the steps while LOS for Molina to Baker on the east side may have been blocked/obscured via Stanton and several others still standing on the east side of the handrail.
Mr Williams apparently did not see Baker or Truly, even though Mr Williams was standing across from Pauline Sanders on the top landing just to the west of front door.
IDK how Williams could have missed Oswald, Baker, and Truly colliding together at the door unless Mr Williams went back inside the front lobby just preceding Baker reaching the front steps per Darnell film.
Sanders apparently did not see Oswald and Truly in company with Baker.
This may be possibly due to Oswald (PM) following immediately behind Williams as Williams returns into the lobby. Both of them therefore in the lobby before Baker gets to the front door. Williams may be one of the men near rhe passenger elevator about to get in it , as Baker enters the lobby. Oswald could be the 2nd man seen by Baker.
Sanders saw Baker coming up the west side steps but if Truly goes up the east side then Baker may be obstructing Sanders LOS to Truly as he arrives at the opposite side of Baker on the landing.
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Correction note: Sanders saw Baker on the EAST side while Truly went up
The WEST side of the steps
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;D
I forgot I should never be flippant with you. When you ask:
"So when an officer sticks a gun in his stomach he thinks what exactly, Mr O'Meara?"
The answer is, nobody knows only Oswald. You don't know, I don't know, nobody does.
What's the point in speculating?
My opinion, at the moment, is that Oswald was deeply involved in the events of that day but I don't know to what extent.
Maybe he wasn't phased by Baker at all as he knew police were going to be swarming the building at some point.
Maybe he was slightly freaked out by Reid, hearing the president was shot.
Who knows?
The following scenario was based on the various statements Oswald was reported to have made:
Oswald is in the domino room having his lunch when Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD
Minutes later the assassination takes place while he is still in the domino room
Oswald goes up to the 2nd floor to get a Coke to have with his lunch
Has the encounter with Baker
Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it
That's why, when asked by Inspector Kelley if he'd actually seen the parade, Oswald answers that he didn't see it.
When he gets to the front lobby he talks with Bill Shelley
As a result of that conversation Oswald decides to leave the TSBD.
On his through the lobby Allman asks where the phone is
When he gets to the door an officer confronts him
Bill Shelley vouches for Oswald
Away he goes
This scenario does a good job of taking all his various statements into account.
Except it doesn't, because it makes zero sense. Your scenario has Mr Oswald having his lunchroom run-in with a gun-toting officer and then hearing Ms Reid tell him the Pres has been shot and then----------going down to the domino room to finish off his lunch before heading outside to (as he somehow thinks!) watch the parade-------only to find to his surprise he has missed it.
Complete nonsense!
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Except it doesn't, because it makes zero sense. Your scenario has Mr Oswald having his lunchroom run-in with a gun-toting officer and then hearing Ms Reid tell him the Pres has been shot and then----------going down to the domino room to finish off his lunch before heading outside to (as he somehow thinks!) watch the parade-------only to find to his surprise he has missed it.
Complete nonsense!
The scenario is based on Oswald's reported statements, as I've clearly stated.
If you can show me Oswald's statements regarding a gun-toting officer and Reid, I'll try and fit those in.
And remember - Oswald stated he didn't see the parade.
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The scenario is based on Oswald's reported statements, as I've clearly stated.
If you can show me Oswald's statements regarding a gun-toting officer and Reid, I'll try and fit those in.
So you were never claiming that the 'scenario' below actually happened, just that Mr Oswald gave his interrogators this scenario?
"Oswald is in the domino room having his lunch when Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD
Minutes later the assassination takes place while he is still in the domino room
Oswald goes up to the 2nd floor to get a Coke to have with his lunch
Has the encounter with Baker
Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it
That's why, when asked by Inspector Kelley if he'd actually seen the parade, Oswald answers that he didn't see it.
When he gets to the front lobby he talks with Bill Shelley
As a result of that conversation Oswald decides to leave the TSBD.
On his through the lobby Allman asks where the phone is
When he gets to the door an officer confronts him
Bill Shelley vouches for Oswald
Away he goes"
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So you were never claiming that the 'scenario' below actually happened, just that Mr Oswald gave his interrogators this scenario?
"Oswald is in the domino room having his lunch when Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD
Minutes later the assassination takes place while he is still in the domino room
Oswald goes up to the 2nd floor to get a Coke to have with his lunch
Has the encounter with Baker
Goes down to the domino room to finish off his lunch
Heads outside to watch the parade but misses it
That's why, when asked by Inspector Kelley if he'd actually seen the parade, Oswald answers that he didn't see it.
When he gets to the front lobby he talks with Bill Shelley
As a result of that conversation Oswald decides to leave the TSBD.
On his through the lobby Allman asks where the phone is
When he gets to the door an officer confronts him
Bill Shelley vouches for Oswald
Away he goes"
If you have an entire police department breathing down your neck...you will not have the clearest recollection of everything.
The TSBD employees in question will have certainly been interested in only one thing...covering their own backsides.
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If you have an entire police department breathing down your neck...you will not have the clearest recollection of everything.
The TSBD employees in question will have certainly been interested in only one thing...covering their own backsides.
Covering their own backsides?
Surely their only interest would've been to give as full and honest account of their whereabouts and actions as possible.
What do they need to cover their backsides for?
Unless, of course, they need to cover their backsides.
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It’s starting to approach closer to becoming a conspiracy fact that PM is Oswald given the elimination of Sarah Stanton and all other TSBD employees as plausible candidates.
However the scenario of Oswald colliding with Baker right AT the front door just AS Baker is about to enter into the front lobby seems to defy probability unless the “Missing the Gorilla in the Midst of Basketball players” experiment is a plausible explanation for those close by the event such as Pauline Sanders, missing seeing Oswald while still seeing Baker.