JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on November 05, 2021, 04:51:58 AM
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The earliest reports coming from the DPD on the afternoon of the JFK assassination was that Oswald was a card-carrying member of the communist party. Duran and Mirabel, from inside the cuban consulate, also said that Oswald had a membership card of the communist party with him while he was inside the cuban consulate. Peter Dale Scott discusses this issue at length beginning at 33 minutes on this video:
The question then is - where did this card go after the JFK assassination, who took it and prevented it from being entered into evidence as one of the WC exhibits?
What's unusual here is that as Peter Dale Scott outlines, the DPD, the FBI and the CIA must have known about this card. So how did so many separate bodies collude to cover up after the JFK assassination the fact that Oswald had such a card?
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Oswald never identified as a Communist. In some of his writings he seemed to ridicule the American Communist party and the Soviets.
He identified as a Marxist-Leninist. Communism is based on Marxism but not all Marxists identify as Communists.
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Oswald never identified as a Communist. In some of his writings he seemed to ridicule the American Communist party and the Soviets.
He identified as a Marxist-Leninist. Communism is based on Marxism but not all Marxists identify as Communists.
He did write to the communist party. He even asked them for advice (Aug 31st 1963 letter). Those letters are in the 26 volumes. He seems to have had a love-hate relationship with the CPUSA.
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He did write to the communist party. He even asked them for advice (Aug 31st 1963 letter). Those letters are in the 26 volumes. He seems to have had a love-hate relationship with the CPUSA.
I think he was playing games. Whether he was doing it for his own amusement or doing it as part of an "operation" involving anti-communist characters like Guy Bannister remains an open question.
His writings and the things he told people close to him after he returned to the US from Russia suggest he had become disillusioned with Soviet style communism after living in the USSR. Also, the CPUSA was very close to the Soviets.
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There seems to be an awful lot of smoke here on the card issue. A bit too much for there not to be fire somewhere.
On the other hand, if the DPD found a communist card on Oswald after the JFK assassination (or at his rooming house), it would appear there would have been too many DPD officers that would know about it in order to keep it quiet afterwards. That's where the idea that Oswald had a communist card falls down.
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The earliest reports coming from the DPD on the afternoon of the JFK assassination was that Oswald was a card-carrying member of the communist party. Duran and Mirabel, from inside the cuban consulate, also said that Oswald had a membership card of the communist party with him while he was inside the cuban consulate. Peter Dale Scott discusses this issue at length beginning at 33 minutes on this video:
The question then is - where did this card go after the JFK assassination, who took it and prevented it from being entered into evidence as one of the WC exhibits?
What's unusual here is that as Peter Dale Scott outlines, the DPD, the FBI and the CIA must have known about this card. So how did so many separate bodies collude to cover up after the JFK assassination the fact that Oswald had such a card?
Duran said Oswald showed her a "labor card" from Russia but nothing about a communist party card. She said he told her he was a member of the CPUSA - that was a lie.
From her testimony:
CORNWELL - Did anything else occur on the second visit, any other conversation, or any other event?
TIRADO - No, but I told you, it's uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution. He show me letters to the Communist Party, the American Communist Party, his labor card, and uh, he's working in Russia, I don't remember exactly, but he said on his application, his licence number...
CORNWELL - Marriage license?
TIRADO - (Spoke in spanish.) Se dice serup los recortes del
CORNWELL - Okay, we had to pause for a second to turn the periodico tapes over. As I recall, you were explaining the kinds of things he brought with him.
TIRADO - Yes, it was his labor card, form Russia, his us, marriage pact, yes, that he was married with a Russian, and uh, a clipping that he was with two policemen taking him by his arms, that he was in a meeting to support Cuba. And a card saying that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba in New Orleans.
Mirabel said this about the "card": "In fact, I noticed that he presented a card or credentials as belonging to the Communist Party of the United States. I understand, or it is also my understanding, that the Communist Party of the United States stated that he never belonged to the party. I was surprised by the fact that the card seemed to be a new card."
A "card or credentials." And the CPUSA said he was never a member. So if he had a card, which I don't think he did, it was probably fake.
Azcue said Oswald presented documents attesting to his membership in the CPUSA but not a card.
Oswald insisted after he returned from the Soviet Union that he was not a communist or a supporter of the Soviet Union. He said he detested the Soviet system as much as he detested the American political and economic systems. In fact he wrote that the CPUSA had betrayed its cause by being subservient to Moscow.
I deleted the link to the video.
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Oswald never identified as a Communist. In some of his writings he seemed to ridicule the American Communist party and the Soviets.
He identified as a Marxist-Leninist. Communism is based on Marxism but not all Marxists identify as Communists.
That's not how I read it. He said he was a communist when he first arrived in the USSR (and when he was in the US before). After becoming disenchanted with that system and leaving he then insisted that he was a Marxist but not a Marxist-Leninist or a communist. He rejected the Leninist version of Marxism - Marxist-Leninism - that he believed the USSR had turned into.
He said this in a letter to his brother (1959):
"Ask me and I will tell you I fight for communism. This word brings to your mind slaves or injustice. This is because of American propaganda. Look this word up in the dictionary or better still, read the book which I first read when I was 15, "CAPITAL", which contains economic theories and most important, the "Communist Manifesto."
"I will not say your grandchildren will live under communism, look for yourself at history, look at a world map! American is a dying country, I do not wish to be a part of it, nor do I ever again wish to be used as a tool in its military oppressions."
Granted, he may have said that because he knew the Soviets were reading his letters. But the accounts of others say he described himself at that time as a communist and supporter of the Soviet Union. Again, it was later that he turned against it and the CPUSA.
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That's not how I read it. He said he was a communist when he first arrived in the USSR (and when he was in the US before). After becoming disenchanted with that system and leaving he then insisted that he was a Marxist but not a Marxist-Leninist or a communist. He rejected the Leninist version of Marxism - Marxist-Leninism - that he believed the USSR had turned into.
He said this in a letter to his brother (1959):
"Ask me and I will tell you I fight for communism. This word brings to your mind slaves or injustice. This is because of American propaganda. Look this word up in the dictionary or better still, read the book which I first read when I was 15, "CAPITAL", which contains economic theories and most important, the "Communist Manifesto."
"I will not say your grandchildren will live under communism, look for yourself at history, look at a world map! American is a dying country, I do not wish to be a part of it, nor do I ever again wish to be used as a tool in its military oppressions."
Granted, he may have said that because he knew the Soviets were reading his letters. But the accounts of others say he described himself at that time as a communist and supporter of the Soviet Union. Again, it was later that he turned against it and the CPUSA.
I mostly agree. I shouldn’t have said he “never” identified as a communist.
He may have done so before living in the USSR (and while living there to stay on good terms with his hosts) but after coming home to the US in 1962 he expressed disillusionment with Soviet style communism and wasn’t a fan of the American communist party.
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I think he was playing games. Whether he was doing it for his own amusement or doing it as part of an "operation" involving anti-communist characters like Guy Bannister remains an open question.
His writings and the things he told people close to him after he returned to the US from Russia suggest he had become disillusioned with Soviet style communism after living in the USSR. Also, the CPUSA was very close to the Soviets.
He said he was a communist well before meeting/coming across Banister in New Orleans. As a teenager, at 17, when he dropped out of high school and was working as a messenger. He told his brother that he was a communist when he defected/lived in the USSR. He later abandoned that characterization when he came to the belief that the Soviet system - Marxism-Leninis - was a betrayal of true Marxism. And he criticized the CPUSA for its slavish defense of Moscow.
This seems to be an impossible dilemma: the more evidence that is shown that he held radical ideas - as he understood them - and that he wasn't pretending or acting the more the conspiracy response is that it was part of their conspiracy and it was indeed an act.
We say "A" and conspiracists say "not A". There's no place to take this much further. It's just going over old ground. Frankly, I think it's absurd that any conspiracists would shoot JFK in the middle of the street, in broad daylight, with hundreds of people around, many with cameras. And then think it could all be covered up. Forever? Even now? Impossible.
But here we are. Almost sixty years later.
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I mostly agree. I shouldn’t have said he “never” identified as a communist.
He may have done so before living in the USSR (and while living there to stay on good terms with his hosts) but after coming home to the US in 1962 he expressed disillusionment with Soviet style communism and wasn’t a fan of the American communist party.
Right, he said that the Soviet system had replaced the Czarist one with an even worse state. That instead of a "withering away" of the state that a huge repressive bureaucracy had emerged. So he rejected this "Marxist-Leninist' version of Marxism.
I think conspiracy people are too quick to dismiss his understanding of Marxism. True, when he was younger - 17-20 or so - it was a cartoonish understanding. But I think later in life it was a bit more sophisticated than his critics say. If you correct his writings for their spelling and grammar there are some college level type thinking here. After all he did have an IQ of 118. He was not well educated but he wasn't a simpleton.
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Right, he said that the Soviet system had replaced the Czarist one with an even worse state. That instead of a "withering away" of the state that a huge repressive bureaucracy had emerged. So he rejected this "Marxist-Leninist' version of Marxism.
I think conspiracy people are too quick to dismiss his understanding of Marxism. True, when he was younger - 17-20 or so - it was a cartoonish understanding. But I think later in life it was a bit more sophisticated than his critics say. If you correct his writings for their spelling and grammar they're some college level type thinking here. After all he did have an IQ of 118. He was not well educated but he wasn't a simpleton.
Most people do a lot of maturing between the ages 17 and 23. It seems plausible and normal to me that he no longer believed in communism by the time he returned from the USSR.
All the evidence from his family, friends, and his own writings after 1962 show that his political views were more complex by 1963. He did some bizarre stuff in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 and I don't think you and I agree on the motivation of those activities. He kept a low profile while living in Dallas yet went out of his way to draw attention to himself in New Orleans. I believe it was for reasons that we don't yet know of.
Most of the LN narrative relies on Oswald being painted as a radical communist but most of the documented evidence shows that he wasn't into communism by 1963.
I do think it's plausible that he attempted to kill Gen. Edwin Walker and assassinated Kennedy but not for the reasons most LN'ers believe.
Walker was a rabid segregationist activist. I believe Oswald's support for Civil Rights drove both his hatred of Walker and his expression of approval of JFK's policies on Civil Rights.
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Most people do a lot of maturing between the ages 17 and 23. It seems plausible and normal to me that he no longer believed in communism by the time he returned from the USSR.
All the evidence from his family, friends, and his own writings after 1962 show that his political views were more complex by 1963. He did some bizarre stuff in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 and I don't think you and I agree on the motivation of those activities. He kept a low profile while living in Dallas yet went out of his way to draw attention to himself in New Orleans. I believe it was for reasons that we don't yet know of.
Most of the LN narrative relies on Oswald being painted as a radical communist but most of the documented evidence shows that he wasn't into communism by 1963.
I do think it's plausible that he attempted to kill Gen. Edwin Walker and assassinated Kennedy but not for the reasons most LN'ers believe.
Walker was a rabid segregationist activist. I believe Oswald's support for Civil Rights drove both his hatred of Walker and his expression of approval of JFK's policies on Civil Rights.
I think the New Orleans activity was to create a resume to show the Cubans that he was a friend of the revolution so they'd let him in. Duran said that he showed her much of his work - the Fair Play stuff, et cetera. When he was in the Marines he told Delgado that he wanted to go to Cuba. In the USSR, Marina said he used to sing songs to Fidel and talk glowingly about the "revolution."
Marina discussed much of this in the McMillan book. As in: he was emotionally desperate after getting fired from jobs. They had no money except for the unemployment checks and charity. He was at a loss as to what to do. His life was at a dead end. Cuban was the only option.
He sees that the USSR is not true Marxism. It's a bureaucratic police state. So he turns to Castro as the real creator of true Marxism.
So either he did this on his own volition to impress Havana or he was acting it out for some reason. And that reason was? I don't understand what the purpose of it was for? If Banister was directing him then what was the purpose? And I find it strange that Oswald is out on the street agitating for Castro and then going back and consorting with Banister? And Banister at that time had no connections, as far as I see, with the FBI or CIA. So what was Banister's goal here with Oswald?
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Here's the account by Marina. This is shortly after Oswald lost the job oiling the coffee machines at the Reilly coffee company. He had no job, a wife and a child, another on the way. No money, no hopes, nothing. He's sobbing in desperation. So they agree to return to the USSR.
Is this a CIA agent? Was it all an act? Part of his cover? The things conspiracists have to dismiss, to characterize as part of his intelligence work is astounding.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WZxGUbbzc7b3Uh2AOasmnkUy-2KJOCoaX-W88YTg9H67lsrwXkQwmvmm_9MLcWPxuvN0MZcjdZbS2tZxnixm8GZSqBh_rUmJvid13sX6wtHOfAeEjfJkKo2z94POqS1H1v3SXlSQXjGB7oWxlOnQvujEgzRwBTikPbdSSjOqBYJW0cDbBXgigEJMB_Wczk_UjO_58YeF728qxUNflLftxKOhEszoFDUFIwWOB0afyBwYSWLxmzRsL3uyllec-bE-6B96rh1OKbSkz9ZJcaXoUwkNqyXx9jnF6AUYXUiVREBdRQ4PGTUcfsOVUnd-GGXkDFEyz4dWJ9Medv6ST9LF_SJvGJw1GGk421iCYl72eYJFt1XlluvZroWKAuTWAjWOk_lZX70pmR3oGtPOO51k8cbAJaLrEKMGLl-eo4FZ2DDm5JnV0SoJcPlpSogFqmrDu99IbIEy7H0_aODHoTCYgOMkSaW8QgJZF1C-mPXrr5UJrsCPp-3S1MvkGEQQXSKKG7jvpR9Yf5M2HoaG4DzQ7icDyxpDkOrLTy1sfCcCCEzNJyHHwEYTJ7dJEO_-J5v45KyeyKxv_Qwfn_eRJEmF4kKtAjqq4Ri7Bg8pDweWB2QYri0XLqHkw5tcrI1Dhcyzx4GJmtZhpH_o0GzMVcczJjH5nfalSpkUtk6OcFaMDSubvqrTGi8YsZbfsQ55HwpbLvOh_oF-yQ1DdOuyzZLSNMPT=w667-h650-no?authuser=0)
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I think the New Orleans activity was to create a resume to show the Cubans that he was a friend of the revolution so they'd let him in. Duran said that he showed her much of his work - the Fair Play stuff, et cetera. When he was in the Marines he told Delgado that he wanted to go to Cuba. In the USSR, Marina said he used to sing songs to Fidel and talk glowingly about the "revolution."
Studying the history Cold War has helped me put a lot of this kinds of stuff into context.
It's worth remembering that Castro didn't go full Soviet Communist until after the Bay of Pigs. Prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis, many Americans had a favorable opinion of Castro and the Cuban Revolution. So it shouldn't be viewed as odd or "radical" that Oswald liked Castro in the early 60s.
What seems more odd to me is that Oswald, who supposedly killed JFK because of our policies towards Cuba, told people, including Marina, that he liked Kennedy long after the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile crisis. One would expect someone who is so pro-Castro to hate Kennedy as much as he hated Gen. Walker after the Bay of Pigs.
Whatever Oswald's reasons for his admiration of Cuba or Castro, I don't think it was entirely about communism. I think he was just politically ahead of his time as George DeMorenschildt has said. Meaning, Oswald was a few years ahead of the late-60s New Left movements that protested against Vietnam and embraced Marxist philosophy as well as figures like Che Guevara and Castro. If he had not been killed, would he have participated in those movements? Perhaps.
On the otherhand, where were Oswald's communist or marxist friends and associates? It's very difficult to find examples of Oswald associating with people who weren't anti-communists. The Paine's appear to be politically Liberal but nothing about them suggests they supported communism or marxism.
So either he did this on his own volition to impress Havana or he was acting it out for some reason. And that reason was? I don't understand what the purpose of it was for? If Banister was directing him then what was the purpose? And I find it strange that Oswald is out on the street agitating for Castro and then going back and consorting with Banister? And Banister at that time had no connections, as far as I see, with the FBI or CIA. So what was Banister's goal here with Oswald?
I don't think Bannister was Oswald's handler or pulling strings. I'm just noting how absurd it was that he associated with a far-right Bircher like Bannister.
Perhaps someone else was Oswald's handler and placed him with Bannister but that's entirely speculative on my part.
When the Cubans finally approved Oswald's visa weeks after his Mexico City trip, what did he do? Nothing. Strange for someone who so eagerly wanted to go to Cuba.
The only two possibilities are that he was doing those things for his own personal reasons or he was doing those things as part of a broader operation that involved other people.
I'll admit that I find the theory that Oswald was part of the CIA/FBI operations against the FPFCC to be a compelling reason for the continuing secrecy surrounding the JFK files. Government agencies might never want to admit to a relationship with the President's would be assassin. Short of covering up their complicity in a conspiracy against Kennedy, covering up their pre-11/22/63 knowledge of or association with Oswald seems like a pretty good rationale.
Lastly, I don' accept much of what Marina told investigators or Pricilla McMillan at face value given Marina's well documented "poor memory"...