JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on November 01, 2020, 02:39:05 AM
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In March 1959, Oswald applied to attend the Albert Schweitzer College in April 1960.
With the course not beginning until April 1960, why did Oswald look for an early discharge from the marines, which he received in Sept 1959? I think, but am not sure, that this was 2 months short of his completion date in the marines.
Edward Jay Epstein says in his book LEGEND (page 97) that Robert Oswald felt that applying to the Switzerland college and the early discharge was all part of the plan to defect to Russia. But he does not explain why the early discharge was part of the plan.
Could Oswald not have simply waited till his marine term was up (which i think was in Nov 1959) and defect then?
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Oswald signed on for six years. His six years of service would have ended December 8, 1962.
https://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Lee_Harvey_Oswald/Mind_of_Oswald/Chap1.html
How did I make such a blunder! :(
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How did I make such a blunder! :(
Gerry, I'm not 100% sure you have. I believe (gut feeling) that link I posted may have been incorrect. I've removed my post until I can find out for sure. Apologies for that, I should have double-checked before posting.
The following should clear it up; "Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement).451 On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support.452 The request was accompanied by an affidavit of Mrs. Oswald and corroborating affidavits from an attorney, a doctor, and two friends, attesting that she had been injured at work in December 1958, and was unable to support herself.453 Oswald had previously made a voluntary allotment of part of his salary to his mother, under which arrangement she received $40 in August, and had submitted an application for a "Q" allotment (dependency allowance) in her behalf of $91.30; one payment of the "Q" allotment, for the month of August, was made in September.454 On August 28, the Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; 455 approval followed shortly.456 On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron,457 and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962.458 He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview."
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines
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Its interesting that Oswald gave an incorrect age (20) on the application form for the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland:
https://natedsanders.com/lee-harvey-oswald-signed-application-to-albert-schweitzer-college-in-1959----upon-acceptance-to-the--lot9816.aspx
He was 19, not 20.
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In March 1959, Oswald applied to attend the Albert Schweitzer College in April 1960.
With the course not beginning until April 1960, why did Oswald look for an early discharge from the marines, which he received in Sept 1959? I think, but am not sure, that this was 2 months short of his completion date in the marines.
Edward Jay Epstein says in his book LEGEND (page 97) that Robert Oswald felt that applying to the Switzerland college and the early discharge was all part of the plan to defect to Russia. But he does not explain why the early discharge was part of the plan.
Could Oswald not have simply waited till his marine term was up (which i think was in Nov 1959) and defect then?
Oswalds early discharge from the marines. Why?
Lee was released from active duty ( Not discharged ) early so that they would have enough time to get him in position in the USSR prior to the CIA U-2 Spy plane over flights..... The CIA wanted him in the USSR to establish a base from which he could transmit a radio signal by which the U-2 could navigate. The pilot would know when to turn on the cameras and record the city below.
At the time they released Lee from active duty they had no way of knowing if he would be successful at penetrating the "Iron Curtain" ( even though the Russians were encouraging him to defect and divulge information about the U-2..... ) The CIA had no way of knowing that IF ?? Lee succeeded in penetrating the Iron Curtain where the Russians might place him....BUT the CIA suspected that they would place him near a school for Russian spies . The CIA reasoned that one of the reasons they wanted Lee Oswald was because they wanted their spies exposed to an American so they could learn American slang and hear an American speak. Thus the CIA guessed that the Russians would send Lee to Minsk, and that was a city they were interested in......
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Oswalds early discharge from the marines. Why?
Lee was released from active duty ( Not discharged ) early so that they would have enough time to get him in position in the USSR prior to the CIA U-2 Spy plane over flights..... The CIA wanted him in the USSR to establish a base from which he could transmit a radio signal by which the U-2 could navigate. The pilot would know when to turn on the cameras and record the city below.
At the time they released Lee from active duty they had no way of knowing if he would be successful at penetrating the "Iron Curtain" ( even though the Russians were encouraging him to defect and divulge information about the U-2..... ) The CIA had no way of knowing that IF ?? Lee succeeded in penetrating the Iron Curtain where the Russians might place him....BUT the CIA suspected that they would place him near a school for Russian spies . The CIA reasoned that one of the reasons they wanted Lee Oswald was because they wanted their spies exposed to an American so they could learn American slang and hear an American speak. Thus the CIA guessed that the Russians would send Lee to Minsk, and that was a city they were interested in......
And you have evidence of any of this?
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And you have evidence of any of this?
Do you think I could create a plausible explanation out of thin air??....... Of course I know what happened, and why Lee was released early....
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Do you think I could create a plausible explanation out of thin air??....... Of course I know what happened, and why Lee was released early....
That's exactly what you did!! John T asked for evidence E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E..you familiar with that word at all?
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"...the CIA guessed that the Russians would send Lee to Minsk."
A plausible explanation??
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That's exactly what you did!! John T asked for evidence E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E..you familiar with that word at all?
Ya Dumb ass...Do you need a written confession from the CIA that they recruited Lee Oswald and sent him to the USSR .....
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Ya Dumb ass...Do you need a written confession from the CIA that they recruited Lee Oswald and sent him to the USSR .....
You have presented no evidence.
I disagree with Mr Pointing on the assassination.
However, he doesn't present " evidence " as conjecture.
You present conjecture as fact. You set back the truth by misrepresenting evidence. We don't appreciate your efforts.
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You have presented no evidence.
I disagree with Mr Pointing on the assassination.
However, he doesn't present " evidence " as conjecture.
You present conjecture as fact. You set back the truth by misrepresenting evidence. We don't appreciate your efforts.
SET BACK THE TRUTH??? Ya Dumbass.....
I've been researching the case for nearly six decades..... and Like thousands of others, I know "misrepresentation"' when I see it...And LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee's" report is the epitome of misrepresentation.
Talk about setting back the truth!! Thanks to gutless dimwits like you we'll never expose the truth. Why do you think you were endowed with a brain?
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I've been researching the case for nearly six decades.
That's a serious long time.
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That's a serious long time.
Don't be over impressed Gerry, all it means is Cakebread has been espousing BS longer than most people have even been born.
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Don't be over impressed Gerry, all it means is Cakebread has been espousing BS longer than most people have even been born.
Again, while I disagree with Mr Pointing on many issues, we both try to work in the, uh, " reality based world". :)
Oswald appears to have created a bit of, "fiction", in applying for a hardship discharge. ( He promptly left town, instead of staying and supporting his mother.)
Why? No evidence available as to why he abruptly left for the USSR. Those who present theories, without any supporting evidence, involving Oswald as a secret agent? are not contributing anything .
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Again, while I disagree with Mr Pointing on many issues, we both try to work in the, uh, " reality based world". :)
Oswald appears to have created a bit of, "fiction", in applying for a hardship discharge. ( He promptly left town, instead of staying and supporting his mother.)
Why? No evidence available as to why he abruptly left for the USSR. Those who present theories, without any supporting evidence, involving Oswald as a secret agent? are not contributing anything .
He promptly left town, instead of staying and supporting his mother. Why?
Are you aware that he was already boked aboard a CIA ship to travel to Europe BEFORE he was evaer released from active duty ......And are you aware that there is no record of HOW?? Lee traveled from London to Finland ( there were no commercial flights that would have allowed him to arrive in Finland to sign the register at the hotel in Helsinki..... (He had to have been flown by a military flight )
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He promptly left town, instead of staying and supporting his mother. Why?
Are you aware that he was already boked aboard a CIA ship to travel to Europe BEFORE he was evaer released from active duty ......And are you aware that there is no record of HOW?? Lee traveled from London to Finland ( there were no commercial flights that would have allowed him to arrive in Finland to sign the register at the hotel in Helsinki..... (He had to have been flown by a military flight )
And I might be a unicorn. But I'm not
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Lee was released from active duty ( Not discharged ) early so that they would have enough time to get him in position in the USSR prior to the CIA U-2 Spy plane over flights..... The CIA wanted him in the USSR to establish a base from which he could transmit a radio signal by which the U-2 could navigate. The pilot would know when to turn on the cameras and record the city below.
Cool story, bro.
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Cool story, bro.
Thank You.....For acknowledging that they had prepared Lee's itinerary BEFORE he ever was released from active duty....
An aside ..... In the 90'3 I saw the Marion Lykes anchored with the CIA fleet in Suisun bay near Martinez California. she was tied up along side the Glomar Explorer and another CIA vessel....
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Are you aware that he was already boked aboard a CIA ship to travel to Europe BEFORE he was evaer released from active duty ......And are you aware that there is no record of HOW?? Lee traveled from London to Finland ( there were no commercial flights that would have allowed him to arrive in Finland to sign the register at the hotel in Helsinki..... (He had to have been flown by a military flight )
You really are years behind, aren't you? This was debunked, by CT researchers, back in 1991!! Cakebread, you're an embarrassment.
Credit to Jim Root.
"In responding to the requests of the Warren Commission, the CIA stated that they could not identify any direct flight from London to Helsinki that would have allowed Oswald to arrive in Helsinki with sufficient time to check into the Torni Hotel. It took until 1994, thirty-one years after the Kennedy assassination, for researcher Chris Mills to discover that there were two airline flights that Oswald could have selected. The first, via Copenhagen, left London at 8:05 AM and arrived in Helsinki at 5:05 PM, the second left London at 8:50 AM and stopped in Stockholm before arriving in Helsinki at 5:35 PM. Either of these flights would have placed Oswald in Helsinki in time to register at the Torni Hotel."
Credit to Peter Vronsky.
"In responding to Warren Commission requests, the CIA wrote that they could not identify any direct flight from London to Helsinki that would have allowed Oswald to arrive in time to book into his Helsinki hotel on the evening of October 10, 1959. [CE 2677] That gave rise to infinite speculation of Oswald perhaps taking a military flight from London to Helsinki--again suggesting evidence that there was some sort of intelligence function behind Oswald's journey. This defies logic. Presumably any intelligence mission that Oswald was on was clandestine. After having Oswald take a slow boat to LaHavre, a ferry to Southhampton, a public train to London, would an intelligence service then suddenly expose him by putting him on a military transport for the final hop to Helsinki? Moreover, Finland was not a NATO country where a discreet military flight could be hosted.
The solution is probably more prosaic. While there were no direct flights within the required time span, there were connecting flights. In 1994, Fred Huntley, Consultant Archivist, British Airways Archives and Museum Collection, Heathrow Airport, Hounslow, wrote to researcher Chris Mills stating that there was a choice of two other flights from London, one via Copenhagen (08:05) and the other via Stockholm (08:50). Either of these could have been utilized by Oswald, and both would have been offered if he had arrived in the early hours of the 10th trying to book a flight. These flights would have arrived in Helsinki at 17:05 and 17:35 respectively, thus giving Oswald ample time to book into his hotel in Helsinki on the evening of October 10."
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/2397-serendipity/?tab=comments#comment-14263
http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/journey.htm
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/fancy2.txt
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You really are years behind, aren't you? This was debunked, by CT researchers, back in 1991!! Cakebread, you're an embarrassment.
Credit to Jim Root.
"In responding to the requests of the Warren Commission, the CIA stated that they could not identify any direct flight from London to Helsinki that would have allowed Oswald to arrive in Helsinki with sufficient time to check into the Torni Hotel. It took until 1994, thirty-one years after the Kennedy assassination, for researcher Chris Mills to discover that there were two airline flights that Oswald could have selected. The first, via Copenhagen, left London at 8:05 AM and arrived in Helsinki at 5:05 PM, the second left London at 8:50 AM and stopped in Stockholm before arriving in Helsinki at 5:35 PM. Either of these flights would have placed Oswald in Helsinki in time to register at the Torni Hotel."
Credit to Peter Vronsky.
"In responding to Warren Commission requests, the CIA wrote that they could not identify any direct flight from London to Helsinki that would have allowed Oswald to arrive in time to book into his Helsinki hotel on the evening of October 10, 1959. [CE 2677] That gave rise to infinite speculation of Oswald perhaps taking a military flight from London to Helsinki--again suggesting evidence that there was some sort of intelligence function behind Oswald's journey. This defies logic. Presumably any intelligence mission that Oswald was on was clandestine. After having Oswald take a slow boat to LaHavre, a ferry to Southhampton, a public train to London, would an intelligence service then suddenly expose him by putting him on a military transport for the final hop to Helsinki? Moreover, Finland was not a NATO country where a discreet military flight could be hosted.
The solution is probably more prosaic. While there were no direct flights within the required time span, there were connecting flights. In 1994, Fred Huntley, Consultant Archivist, British Airways Archives and Museum Collection, Heathrow Airport, Hounslow, wrote to researcher Chris Mills stating that there was a choice of two other flights from London, one via Copenhagen (08:05) and the other via Stockholm (08:50). Either of these could have been utilized by Oswald, and both would have been offered if he had arrived in the early hours of the 10th trying to book a flight. These flights would have arrived in Helsinki at 17:05 and 17:35 respectively, thus giving Oswald ample time to book into his hotel in Helsinki on the evening of October 10."
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/2397-serendipity/?tab=comments#comment-14263
http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/journey.htm
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/fancy2.txt
So you think that is a plausible explanation for Lee's ability to get an early separation from the Marines and then hop aboard a CIA ship with a passport and all his visa's in hand ??
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One thing is blatantly obvious...Oswald was never charged by the authorities concerning any of these shenanigans--Claiming a false hardship discharge* ...supposedly/possibly conspiring with the Soviets to release certain radar secrets [espionage] in addition to at least threatening to renounce his citizenship.
Relinquishing one's citizenship is not itself criminal but presently, it takes one year and costs $2300 to do this. Back in 1960 I believe it was $450.
* Chapter 37---- https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-70/pdf/STATUTE-70A-Pg1.pdf
* Page 374 Article 6407--- https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCO%201900.16%20CH%202.pdf?ver=2019-02-26-080015-447
If there was actually no hardship involved [and Oswald had other brothers to step in and help their mother] He was subject to availability to be recalled into the service. Oswald was allowed to skate concerning these irregularities ....WHY?
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One thing is blatantly obvious...Oswald was never charged by the authorities concerning any of these shenanigans--Claiming a false hardship discharge* ...supposedly/possibly conspiring with the Soviets to release certain radar secrets [espionage] in addition to at least threatening to renounce his citizenship.
Relinquishing one's citizenship is not itself criminal but presently, it takes one year and costs $2300 to do this. Back in 1960 I believe it was $450.
* Chapter 37---- https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-70/pdf/STATUTE-70A-Pg1.pdf
* Page 374 Article 6407--- https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCO%201900.16%20CH%202.pdf?ver=2019-02-26-080015-447
If there was actually no hardship involved [and Oswald had other brothers to step in and help their mother] He was subject to availability to be recalled into the service. Oswald was allowed to skate concerning these irregularities ....WHY?
There's really nothing suspicious nor even unusual in Oswald not being prosecuted on his return, on the contrary, it was normal practice. There were literally hundreds of US defectors during the cold war and very rarely were any prosecuted; https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/defector.htm
Also, you may find useful an article from the Mary Ferrell Foundation by CT researcher Bill Simpich, who quite convincingly argues that Oswald didn't actually break any national security laws: "However, I am not aware of any law that imposed liability for Oswald to threaten to violate his termination agreement by disclosing the mundane things that he had learned on the job - as long as he didn't actually do it. Nor was it illegal for him to actually disclose electronic skills, if he could successfully argue that he had learned these things before he entered the Marines. His stepfather Edwin Ekdahl was an electronics engineer and a researcher in the field - that provided the young Oswald with a lot of protective cover."
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_3.html
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When Oswald got his early discharge from the marines in 1959, how early was it? Had he months or years left to do?
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When Oswald got his early discharge from the marines in 1959, how early was it? Had he months or years left to do?
Hi Gerry, I already posted you an answer to this back on page one. You must have missed it, no problem. The following should clear it up; "Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. The request was accompanied by an affidavit of Mrs Oswald and corroborating affidavits from an attorney, a doctor, and two friends, attesting that she had been injured at work in December 1958, and was unable to support herself. Oswald had previously made a voluntary allotment of part of his salary to his mother, under which arrangement she received $40 in August, and had submitted an application for a "Q" allotment (dependency allowance) in her behalf of $91.30; one payment of the "Q" allotment, for the month of August, was made in September. On August 28, the Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; approval followed shortly. On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview."
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines
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Hi Gerry, I already posted you an answer to this back on page one. You must have missed it, no problem. The following should clear it up; "Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. The request was accompanied by an affidavit of Mrs Oswald and corroborating affidavits from an attorney, a doctor, and two friends, attesting that she had been injured at work in December 1958, and was unable to support herself. Oswald had previously made a voluntary allotment of part of his salary to his mother, under which arrangement she received $40 in August, and had submitted an application for a "Q" allotment (dependency allowance) in her behalf of $91.30; one payment of the "Q" allotment, for the month of August, was made in September. On August 28, the Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; approval followed shortly. On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview."
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines
Thanks. I must have missed that.
This brings me back to my original question. In March 1959, Oswald applied to attend the Albert Schweitzer College in April 1960. With the course not beginning until April 1960, why did Oswald look for an early discharge from the marines, which he received in Sept 1959? Could he not just have waited until December 7, 1959 when he was due to be discharged anyway?
Offhand, the only thing I can think of is that it would have been suspicious traveling to the USSR in the months of December/January as a tourist given the very cold winters in Moscow. So maybe he decided to get discharged from the marines so he could travel to the USSR before the winter set in?
Let's look at the math:
4-5 Weeks Arrangements & Travelling Time: Oswald was discharged on Sept 11th 1959. It took him until Oct 16th 1959 to arrive in Moscow.
In that case, if Oswald had left the marines as originally due to leave on December 7th 1959, he would have arrived in Moscow about January 12th 1960. Perhaps there are very few tourists in Moscow at that time of year.
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Thanks. I must have missed that.
This brings me back to my original question. In March 1959, Oswald applied to attend the Albert Schweitzer College in April 1960. With the course not beginning until April 1960, why did Oswald look for an early discharge from the marines, which he received in Sept 1959? Could he not just have waited until December 7, 1959 when he was due to be discharged anyway?
Offhand, the only thing I can think of is that it would have been suspicious traveling to the USSR in the months of December/January as a tourist given the very cold winters in Moscow. So maybe he decided to get discharged from the marines so he could travel to the USSR before the winter set in?
Let's look at the math:
4-5 Weeks Arrangements & Travelling Time: Oswald was discharged on Sept 11th 1959. It took him until Oct 16th 1959 to arrive in Moscow.
In that case, if Oswald had left the marines as originally due to leave on December 7th 1959, he would have arrived in Moscow about January 12th 1960. Perhaps there are very few tourists in Moscow at that time of year.
Gerry, your guess is as good as anyone else's on this. Unfortunately, people guessing is probably all we're ever going to get here. How can anyone ever prove what was going on in someone else's mind 60+ years ago? My own guess is that to an impatient young man a few months can seem like a few years. Especially so in Oswald's case because he absolutely hated being in the army and couldn't wait to leave and start afresh in Russia. Just my guess, which along with 10p will buy a box of matches. It's up to you what you do with your time, personally, I wouldn't spend any more time on it. Good luck.
PS Don't forget Oswald was only due discharge on December 7th 1959 from active duty. He was expected to serve in the Marine Corps Reserve until December 8, 1962.
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Gerry, your guess is as good as anyone else's on this. Unfortunately, people guessing is probably all we're ever going to get here. How can anyone ever prove what was going on in someone else's mind 60+ years ago? My own guess is that to an impatient young man a few months can seem like a few years. Especially so in Oswald's case because he absolutely hated being in the army and couldn't wait to leave and start afresh in Russia. Just my guess, which along with 10p will buy a box of matches. It's up to you what you do with your time, personally, I wouldn't spend any more time on it. Good luck.
Thanks. This angle is probably going nowhere.
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Thanks. This angle is probably going nowhere.
Gerry, don't forget Oswald was only due discharge on December 7th 1959 from active duty. He was still expected to serve in the Marine Corps Reserve until December 8, 1962.
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Gerry, don't forget Oswald was only due discharge on December 7th 1959 from active duty. He was still expected to serve in the Marine Corps Reserve until December 8, 1962.
Which he didn't....and why I still suggest that he was allowed to slide on every front. Perhaps there were hundreds of cold war defectors as stated earlier in the thread. I didn't find this information. How many of these defectors were military fraudsters who shirked their duty by requesting a hardship discharge that didn't exist? The --my daddy taught me electronics-- story wouldn't have carried water as Lee was just a toddler when daddy was gone...... That story along with the ever present fake Oswald picture.........
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_3.html
I am not suggesting that Oswald got away with anything...I am still suggesting that he was allowed to get away with everything.