JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: John Tonkovich on October 29, 2020, 02:46:01 PM

Title: Bullets
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 29, 2020, 02:46:01 PM
The WC concluded that Oswald was the shooter of JFK and Tippit, and presented a detailed record regarding the provenance of his rifle/long gun and his hand gun.
Oddly, they presented, no evidence regarding his acquisition of ammunition.
Where, how, and why Oswald allegedly acquired Western Cartgridge Company (WCC) bullets manufactured for the US military in 1954 has never been determined.
Perhaps our resident experts wish to chime in with explanations?
Thx.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Denis Pointing on October 29, 2020, 11:18:36 PM
The WC concluded that Oswald was the shooter of JFK and Tippit, and presented a detailed record regarding the provenance of his rifle/long gun and his hand gun.
Oddly, they presented, no evidence regarding his acquisition of ammunition.
Where, how, and why Oswald allegedly acquired Western Cartgridge Company (WCC) bullets manufactured for the US military in 1954 has never been determined.
Perhaps our resident experts wish to chime in with explanations?
Thx.

I don't believe there is an explanation, John. At least none that we're ever likely to find. There were 2 million rounds of the ammo on sale to the public, on sale at gun shops, sporting shops, second-hand shops..pretty much anywhere. None of which required any paperwork. You'rd have more chance finding out where Oswald purchased his underpants!

"The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle were part of a batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il. They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid during the Greek civil war. They were commonly available on the surplus market during the early 1960s. They were packed in typical American 20 round boxes of white cardboard.
Clips"


"the George Zucker Sales Company of Chicago purchased about two million rounds for commercial resale in 1962."
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2020, 11:34:47 PM
According to CE 2694, only two local gun shops sold this ammunition and neither one believed that they ever sold any to Oswald.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Denis Pointing on October 29, 2020, 11:57:57 PM
According to CE 2694, only two local gun shops sold this ammunition and neither one believed that they ever sold any to Oswald.

What about non-local gunshops, sporting shops, second-hand shops, gun fairs and mail order? Did the 2 gunshop owners know for sure or did they just "believe"? Were they telling the truth? Round n round we go! The possibilities are endless, this question is never going to be answered.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 30, 2020, 02:14:35 PM
Thx for the input, Mr P and Mr I.
Could I get a citation for the "2 million" sold story, please, if you have one, Mr. P? Thx.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2020, 03:00:11 PM
In CT Wonderland, nothing is knowable or provable.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2020, 03:12:54 PM
FBI Records Trace Oswald Bullets
https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/02/archives/fbirecords-trace-oswald-and-bullets-newlyreleased-files-describe.html
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Denis Pointing on October 30, 2020, 05:28:46 PM
Thx for the input, Mr P and Mr I.
Could I get a citation for the "2 million" sold story, please, if you have one, Mr. P? Thx.

Yeah sure, here yer go, John:  https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/02/archives/fbirecords-trace-oswald-and-bullets-newlyreleased-files-describe.html

OOPS!! Just saw Bill beat me to it. Thanks Bill.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 30, 2020, 06:43:16 PM
According to CE 2694, only two local gun shops sold this ammunition and neither one believed that they ever sold any to Oswald.

I believe the gun shops sold ammo that was designed to be fired in the 6.5mm Carcano....And thar ammo was manufactured in Italy...

The spent hells were manufactured by Winchester Western for the CIA under a contract issued by the USMC....  Needless to say the Marine Corp had no use for 6.5mm Carcano Ammo.  ( They had no weapons that could use that amm0)   However there was guerrilla  action in Cuba that the CIA was backing....
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on October 30, 2020, 07:14:50 PM
Additional facts concerning the origin of the ammunition..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qoya05rhm4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qoya05rhm4)

Best Rgds,
Christer
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 02, 2020, 06:31:43 AM
In CT Wonderland, nothing is knowable or provable.
In Warren Commission wonderland, there's an explanation for everything.
Except:
Oswald's bullets.
Oswald "ordering" one long gun, yet receiving a different one.
Altgens describing a shot directly in front of him, yet Warren Commission ignoring him as a witness, while utilizing his photograph as evidence.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 05, 2020, 05:40:44 AM
Could I get a citation for the "2 million" sold story...
Oswald only managed to be "linked" [by some DPD/FBI/WC decree] out of all those millions of 6.5 ammo... to only four bullets  :-\
 The FBI traced nothing. 
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 05, 2020, 04:38:20 PM
In CT Wonderland, nothing is knowable or provable.

In LN Wonderland, wild-ass guesses are considered "proof".
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 05, 2020, 09:36:07 PM
In Warren Commission wonderland, there's an explanation for everything.
Except:
Oswald's bullets.
Oswald "ordering" one long gun, yet receiving a different one.
Altgens describing a shot directly in front of him, yet Warren Commission ignoring him as a witness, while utilizing his photograph as evidence.

Oswald-lover
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 05, 2020, 11:03:48 PM
Like clockwork.  When Chapman has no coherent argument for his position he always falls back on "Oswald lover".
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 06, 2020, 01:12:55 PM
Like clockwork.  When Chapman has no coherent argument for his position he always falls back on "Oswald lover".

Taking a knee in front of Oswald is all anyone has to know about your presence here.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 06, 2020, 04:04:16 PM
Taking a knee in front of Oswald is all anyone has to know about your presence here.

Listen up, Chappie....   You obviously BELIEVE the Lee Oswald was the epitome of evil, and therefore nobody has the right to doubt  your belief and respect him in death.   

I for one very seriously doubt that Lee had any active and knowing role in the murder of President Kennedy.

BUT .... I say BUT?... If he did?....    he would deserve the same respect we extend to any mentally ill person ,

Hitler and his minions thought that all Jews were evil and  did not deserve to be respected..... And Let's not forget that Jesus Christ was scorned and ridiculed...and crucified.   
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 07, 2020, 02:23:35 AM
Jerry doesn't remember stationing position 4 + 95.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 07, 2020, 03:12:25 AM
The ad pictured a considerably-shortened M91 Carcano rifle (the original one produced in large quantities during WWI). Klein's was no more shipping those rifles in early-1963 than they were the 36" model, because the price in the ad was for the 40" model.

    "I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President
     was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good
     closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know
     that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area,
     and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's
     as far as I got with my camera."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/altgens/altgens-distance-to-headshot.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Altgens is on far-right; his camera bag is on the grass. The approximate location of the head shot is represented above by Z312, which is a clearer frame.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Altgens seems a bit off with his claim of being 15 feet from the head shot.

Altgens also claimed he was 30 feet from the President when he snapped his photo. But Liebeler wasn't buying it.

     Liebeler: "I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how
          you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took
          Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was
          hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now,
          you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's
          car when he was hit in the head."
     Altgens: "Well, I was about 15 feet from it."
     Liebeler: "But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the
          street; isn't that right?"
     Altgens: "Yes."

I don't think Altgens was too far out. He was preparing to take a pic at 15ft, the camera wasn't quite in front of his face at the time of the headshot so the limo was still a bit further than 15ft away as shown in in your (excellent) graphic. It was, maybe 25 - 30ft away when he saw the second of the two shots he recalls witnessing.
Title: Re: Bullets
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 07, 2020, 03:17:10 AM
I have previously posted about WC trying to ignore Altgens.