JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on October 21, 2020, 01:23:03 PM
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Most likely simple carelessness.
If it can happen in 2019, it can happen in 1963:
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No gun in your video.
Ruby and Sgt. Dean.
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No gun in your video.
Ruby and Sgt. Dean.
Sometimes the police, like everyone, are just careless.
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Sometimes the police, like everyone, are just careless.
It certainly may have been carelessness, as in the police may have been distracted. I'm more inclined to think Ruby was allowed to slip in because he was acquainted with some of the officers..no officer was ever going to admit to that.
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Sometimes the police, like everyone, are just careless.
Carelessness can be excused when an attack is not expected.
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Carelessness can be excused when an attack is not expected.
Several death threats against Oswald were phoned into the DPD on Satnight/Sunday morning.
DPD conducted locked down their headquarters, closed elevators, and made a thorough inspection of the basement garage.
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Several death threats against Oswald were phoned into the DPD on Satnight/Sunday morning.
DPD conducted locked down their headquarters, closed elevators, and made a thorough inspection of the basement garage.
Yes. But no one ever suspects the sandwich deliverer.
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Yes. But no one ever suspects the sandwich deliverer.
Except the folks who choose to let him in through the basement door.
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Carelessness can be excused when an attack is not expected.
An attack should have been expected. Carelessness is no excuse.
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An attack should have been expected. Carelessness is no excuse.
They probably did expect an attack. But not from the sandwich deliverer. That's how they tripped up.
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Quite likely let in by a cop. Off course the cop might not have known what Ruby's intentions were. He might have assumed that Ruby just wanted to see the transfer.
WC Lawyer Burt Griffin suspected that Officer Patrick Dean might have been the person who let Ruby in.
Fred
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Quite likely let in by a cop. Off course the cop might not have known what Ruby's intentions were. He might have assumed that Ruby just wanted to see the transfer.
WC Lawyer Burt Griffin suspected that Officer Patrick Dean might have been the person who let Ruby in.
Fred
It doesn't need to be anything sinister either, Ruby was 'one of the boys' down at the station, he was well known unlike all the strangers who suddenly descended on the place. It probably took nothing more than a wink to get in.
I believe he delivered cake as well.
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They probably did expect an attack. But not from the sandwich deliverer. That's how they tripped up.
Yes, they just "tripped, fell into the side door, and it opened - and unlocked itself. : )
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Yes, they just "tripped, fell into the side door, and it opened - and unlocked itself. : )
I'd always imagined Ruby just walked down the ramp. Do you have reason to believe Ruby came in via the side door John?
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(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_0356a.jpg)
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(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_0356a.jpg)
Nice work, Mr I.
Vaughn kind of puts that theory to bed, and exposes the already known lies of Patrick Dean. Burt Griffin pointed out Mr Dean's perjury. The failed polygraph is just the cherry on top.
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"Although more than a hundred policemen and newsmen were present in the basement of police headquarters during the 10 minutes before the shooting of Oswald, none has been found who definitely observed Jack Ruby's entry into the basement. After considering all the evidence, the Commission has concluded that Ruby entered the basement unaided, probably via the Main Street ramp, and no more than 3 minutes before the shooting of Oswald.
Ruby's account of how he entered the basement by the Main Street ramp merits consideration in determining his means of entry. Three Dallas policemen testified that approximately 80 minutes after his arrest, Ruby told them that he had walked to the top of the Main Street ramp from the nearby Western Union office and that he walked down the ramp at the time the police car driven by Lieutenant Pierce emerged into Main Street. This information did not come to light immediately because the policemen did not report it to their superiors until some days later. Ruby refused to discuss his means of entry in interrogations with other investigators later on the day of his arrest. Thereafter, in a lengthy interview on December 21 and in a sworn deposition taken after his trial, Ruby gave the same explanation he had given to the three policemen.
The Commission has been able to establish with precision the time of certain events leading up to the. shooting. Minutes before Oswald appeared in the basement, Ruby was in the Western Union office located on the same block of Main Street some 350 feet from the top of the Main Street ramp. The time stamp on a money order which he sent and on the receipt found in his pocket establish that the order was accepted for transmission at almost exactly 11:17 a.m. Ruby was then observed to depart the office walking in the direction of the police building. Video tapes taken without interruption before the shooting establish that Lieutenant Pierce's car cleared the crowd at the foot of the ramp 55 seconds before the shooting. They also show Ruby standing at the foot of the ramp on the Main Street side before the shooting. (See Commission Exhibit No. 2635, p. 220.) The shooting occurred very close to 11:21 a.m. This time has been established by observing the time on a clock appearing in motion pictures
[Report Of The President's Commission On The Assassination Of President Kennedy (1964)]
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CE 2635 is a picture of Ruby inside the basement.
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If it's true Ruby was in the Western Union sending a money order four minutes before he shot Oswald how 'organised' could this shooting be. It must have taken him a couple of minutes to get to the basement, he would have arrived seconds before Oswald showed up.
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CE 2635 is a picture of Ruby inside the basement.
So where are the video recordings mentioned in the report?
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If it's true Ruby was in the Western Union sending a money order four minutes before he shot Oswald how 'organised' could this shooting be. It must have taken him a couple of minutes to get to the basement, he would have arrived seconds before Oswald showed up.
It's even tighter than that. If you watch the news clip you'll see there's a car reversing as Ruby darts forward, the car almost hit him, if Ruby had been just a few seconds later that car would have been between him and Oswald...Ruby would never have got the shot off. That always convinced me more than anything that there was no planning, just a spur of the moment madness.
PS Please check it for yourself but going by memory I believe it worked out Ruby only had about 30 seconds before Oswald was brought out, in that time he had to push to the front of the crowd, draw his gun and dart forward.
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It's even tighter than that. If you watch the news clip you'll see there's a car reversing as Ruby darts forward, the car almost hit him, if Ruby had been just a few seconds later that car would have been between him and Oswald...Ruby would never have got the shot off. That always convinced me more than anything that there was no planning, just a spur of the moment madness.
PS Please check it for yourself but going by memory I believe it worked out Ruby only had about 30 seconds before Oswald was brought out, in that time he had to push to the front of the crowd, draw his gun and dart forward.
There's so much weird stuff about Ruby - Vickie Adams is sure he was outside the TSBD pretending to be a reporter on the day of the assassination, he shows up at the Oswald press conference, he's filmed in the halls of the DPD etc. He is so suspect but I have to agree, it isn't a mafia hit or some other conspiracy driven event, it seems to be, as you say, a spur of the moment madness.
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There's so much weird stuff about Ruby - Vickie Adams is sure he was outside the TSBD pretending to be a reporter on the day of the assassination, he shows up at the Oswald press conference, he's filmed in the halls of the DPD etc. He is so suspect but I have to agree, it isn't a mafia hit or some other conspiracy driven event, it seems to be, as you say, a spur of the moment madness.
That's because Ruby himself was weird. He seemed to enjoy mixing with people he considered important, reporters, police, even the 'mob', inserting himself where he didn't belong, there's plenty of examples of him doing that. Would a psychiatrist label that as someone with a serious inferiority complex? He was also known to have a hair-trigger temper...that's why his nickname was 'sparky', he was also known for having abrupt mood swings, sometimes violent ones. I can quite imagine a man like Ruby having a momentary flash of madness, he even admitted as much himself, when he saw Oswald smirking. He was also surprised at the public reaction...he expected to be treated as a hero. Give an unstable man like that easy access to a gun and....
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He was also surprised at the public reaction...he expected to be treated as a hero.
Do you have a source of Ruby saying he thought he would be treated as a hero? I always thought that was just other people assuming that is what Ruby was thinking.
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Do you have a source of Ruby saying he thought he would be treated as a hero? I always thought that was just other people assuming that is what Ruby was thinking.
There's many 'assumptions' from family and friends. Assumptions or insights from people that knew Ruby well? All easily found via GOOGLE. And then there's Tonahill, Ruby's lawyer and Jim Leavelle. One example from Leavelle, whilst escorting Ruby to the Dallas County Jail Leavelle asked Ruby why he did it, Ruby replied:
''I wanted to be a hero. It looks like I fucked things up.''
From Leavelle:
" he just wanted to be a hero. He wanted to have the glory of killing the man who killed a beloved president. Ruby thought he’d be arrested and charged, but he thought the Grand Jury wouldn’t indict him. Or if they did, he wouldn’t get more than a few years. Then he’d return to his night club, where people would come from far and wide to be seen at the club owned and operated by a legend."
From Tonahill:
“Ruby considered himself a hero. He thought he had done a great service for the community."
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There's plenty of sources Gerry, including Tonahill, Ruby's lawyer and Jim Leavelle. All easily found via GOOGLE. One example from Leavelle, whilst escorting Ruby to the Dallas County Jail Leavelle asked Ruby why he did it, Ruby replied:
''I wanted to be a hero. It looks like I fucked things up.''
From Leavelle:
" he just wanted to be a hero. He wanted to have the glory of killing the man who killed a beloved president. Ruby thought he’d be arrested and charged, but he thought the Grand Jury wouldn’t indict him. Or if they did, he wouldn’t get more than a few years. Then he’d return to his night club, where people would come from far and wide to be seen at the club owned and operated by a legend."
From Tonahill:
“Ruby considered himself a hero. He thought he had done a great service for the community."
Thanks
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There's many 'assumptions' from family and friends. Assumptions or insights from people that knew Ruby well? All easily found via GOOGLE. And then there's Tonahill, Ruby's lawyer and Jim Leavelle. One example from Leavelle, whilst escorting Ruby to the Dallas County Jail Leavelle asked Ruby why he did it, Ruby replied:
''I wanted to be a hero. It looks like I fucked things up.''
From Leavelle:
" he just wanted to be a hero. He wanted to have the glory of killing the man who killed a beloved president. Ruby thought he’d be arrested and charged, but he thought the Grand Jury wouldn’t indict him. Or if they did, he wouldn’t get more than a few years. Then he’d return to his night club, where people would come from far and wide to be seen at the club owned and operated by a legend."
From Tonahill:
“Ruby considered himself a hero. He thought he had done a great service for the community."
He even describes himself as a "martyr" in his mind-blowing WC testimony.
If, as it seems, Ruby just acted on the moment, try to imagine the countless hours spent by countless researchers trying to join dots that just don't join. There's a lesson there.
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He even describes himself as a "martyr" in his mind-blowing WC testimony.
If, as it seems, Ruby just acted on the moment, try to imagine the countless hours spent by countless researchers trying to join dots that just don't join. There's a lesson there.
Yeah, and the reason for it is lazy 'researchers' keep repeating the same old crap decade after decade in CT books, when if they just stopped plagiarising each other and actually sat down and carried out a little research they'd find the 'facts' they're regurgitating were disproved years ago, which is why I got so pissed off with Griffiths a while back.
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Ruby and Tippit were going to be inplicated in a conspiracy to kill JFK. The DPD and Ruby both needed the patsy dead.
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Ruby and Tippit were going to be inplicated in a conspiracy to kill JFK. The DPD and Ruby both needed the patsy dead.
What was Ruby's role in the assassination of JFK?
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To make sure that the patsy was killed right after the assasination.
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To make sure that the patsy was killed right after the assasination.
But in your post you were saying that Ruby needed Oswald dead because he (Ruby) was going to be implicated in the conspiracy to kill JFK.
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,737.0.html
Oswald was to be transported in an armored truck as part of a long procession of police cars traveling from the Commerce Street ramp to the entrance to the county jail.
The armored truck was sitting atop the Commerce Street ramp. This was to be the vehicle that Oswald would be placed in to be taken to the county jail. The driver of the truck had concerns about backing the truck down the ramp, fearing that the truck would stall on it's way up the ramp after picking up it's very infamous passenger. The driver was also concerned with the overhead air conditioning ducts.
Fritz didn't learn of the plan to transfer Oswald in the armored truck until Sunday mid-morning. He objected heavily. Fritz went to Curry with the idea that the alleged assassin should secretly be transferred in one of the police cars in the procession and that the armored truck would be a decoy. Curry agreed and they set the plan into action.
Fritz ordered Lt. Rio Pierce to take one of the police cars from the basement, take it up the Main Street ramp and go around the block to the Commerce Street side to take the lead position in the procession to the county jail.
Jack Ruby wired the money to his dancer at 11:17 a.m. and headed to the top of the Main Street ramp as he walked out the door of the Western Union office, which was only a half block away from the top of the ramp. The money wire receipt was time stamped at 11:17.
As the car driven by Lt. Pierce made it's way up the Main Street ramp to begin it's trek around the block to the Commerce Street side, officer Roy Vaughn, who's sole job was to guard the top of the Main Street ramp, stepped out into the street to halt traffic so that Pierce's car could turn onto Main and head around the block. With Vaughn no longer guarding his post, Ruby entered the ramp and made his way down.
James Turner, an employee of WBAP-TV Fort Worth, was standing at the bottom of the ramp on the east side, near the railing.
He testified that shortly before the shooting of Oswald, he observed a man making his way down the ramp who he (Turner) was confident was Jack Ruby.
Det. Jim Leavelle spoke with Ruby while Ruby was in custody at City Hall. Leavelle asked Ruby how he got into the basement. Ruby stated that when the car driven by Rio Pierce came up the ramp and the guard went out into the street, he walked down the ramp.
Leavelle wanted to see if Ruby was being truthful so he asked his men if any of them knew who drove the car up the ramp just before the shooting. None of them knew who the driver was. Leavelle then went to Capt. Fritz and asked him who was driving the car. Fritz told Leavelle that he ordered Lt. Pierce to take one of the police cars in the basement and take it up the ramp to go around the block to Commerce Street.
None of Leavelle's men knew who drove the car up the ramp but Jack Ruby was perfectly aware of who was driving that car because he saw Pierce driving it with his own eyes.
Ruby gained entrance into the basement via the Main Street ramp.
Oswald was shot at 11:21 a.m., just four minutes after Ruby wired the money to his dancer. Ruby was in the basement no more than forty-five seconds before he shot the wretched waif Oswald. If Ruby had arrived in the basement much earlier, he would surely had been noticed and made to leave.
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After shooting Oswald, Ruby was immediately taken upstairs. He was interrogated for hours. During this time, Sergeant Patrick Dean, Detective Don Archer, Detective Barnard Clardy and Detective Tom McMillan all four heard Ruby say, at that early stage, that he came down the ramp after Pierce drove the car up the ramp.
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To make sure that the patsy was killed right after the assasination.
As Bugliosi stated, he would have been 'driven to his death'. Instead, he's out there on his own, free to blab to the press and cops.
You CTers are the real patsies, wasting your lives trying to protect a cold-blooded killer.
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Ruby and Tippit were going to be inplicated in a conspiracy to kill JFK. The DPD and Ruby both needed the patsy dead.
How exactly was shooting Oswald in the presence of multiple witnesses including law enforcement and a live TV crew going to assist Ruby? Going to jail for murder doesn't appear to do a whole lot for his cause.
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As Bugliosi stated, he would have been 'driven to his death'. Instead, he's out there on his own, free to blab to the press and cops.
You CTers are the real patsies, wasting your lives trying to protect a cold-blooded killer.
Here's the "patsy" that "they" needed to silence because he would expose their conspiracy. Those things in his face are microphones. The big thing on the right is a live TV camera.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/20/30/ba20301fc647e6f1aa5265bb4d1cead0--dealey-plaza-kennedy-assassination.jpg)
Oswald met in private with his wife, his brother, his mother and the head of the Dallas Bar Association. He was able to make unmonitored phone calls. At any of these moments he could have exposed the conspiracy.
If you need to silence a person you simply don't allow those things to happen.
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Here's the "patsy" that "they" needed to silence because he would expose their conspiracy. Those things in his face are microphones. The big thing on the right is a live TV camera.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/20/30/ba20301fc647e6f1aa5265bb4d1cead0--dealey-plaza-kennedy-assassination.jpg)
Oswald met in private with his wife, his brother, his mother and the head of the Dallas Bar Association. He was able to make unmonitored phone calls. At any of these moments he could have exposed the conspiracy.
If you need to silence a person you simply don't allow those things to happen.
What if Oswald wasn't "in" on the Conspiracy?
Like what if he realized he was the "Patsy" but didn't know who set him up?
Killing him prevented his case from going to Trial and allowed space for those involved with the coverup to manufacture evidence...
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What if Oswald wasn't "in" on the Conspiracy?
Like what if he realized he was the "Patsy" but didn't know who set him up?
Killing him prevented his case from going to Trial and allowed space for those involved with the coverup to manufacture evidence...
Doesn't make much sense. If Oswald doesn't know who set him up, then why silence him? He couldn't implicate anyone else and if the conspirators could "manufacture" evidence, then they could do so regardless of whether Oswald was alive or dead. Oswald's protests of innocence would be meaningless if the evidence convicted him. Recruiting Ruby (a screwball) to murder Oswald in police custody and then keep him silent while spending the rest of his life in jail would be a lot more risky.
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Doesn't make much sense. If Oswald doesn't know who set him up, then why silence him?
It depends. He might've known enough to eventually give clues on who set him up.
Assuming Oswald didn't have amnesia like Sirhan Sirhan, I don't see why Conspiracy plotters would let him live long enough to Lawyer up and go to Trial...
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It depends. He might've known enough to eventually give clues on who set him up.
Assuming Oswald didn't have amnesia like Sirhan Sirhan, I don't see why Conspiracy plotters would let him live long enough to Lawyer up and go to Trial...
They let Ruby lawyer up and go to trial. Wouldn't Ruby be in on the conspiracy if he were the designated hit man?
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They let Ruby lawyer up and go to trial. Wouldn't Ruby be in on the conspiracy if he were the designated hit man?
Ruby knew many of the Dallas Cops and the DA were dirty and wouldn’t have talked unless he was moved.
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Everybody was looking for Oswald . I think anyone could have walked in . Ruby was known by the local law enforcement . If you act like you know everyone then it was not hard for Ruby to be seen there . It's kind of like the driver of JFK's Limo who put on the brakes ?
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Ruby knew many of the Dallas Cops and the DA were dirty and wouldn’t have talked unless he was moved.
I don't see it. Oswald knows nothing but has to be killed for some reason. Somehow they convince Ruby to commit murder in the presence of many witnesses and a live national TV audience. Thereby ensuring he goes to jail for life or even gets the chair. And they can rely on him to keep quiet. All of that is laughable.
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I don't see it. Oswald knows nothing but has to be killed for some reason. Somehow they convince Ruby to commit murder in the presence of many witnesses and a live national TV audience. Thereby ensuring he goes to jail for life or even gets the chair. And they can rely on him to keep quiet. All of that is laughable.
Ruby obviously knew he would be arrested but I don't think he expected to get the Chair.
Most likely, he was hoping for or expecting a lenient sentence.
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,737.0.html
Oswald was to be transported in an armored truck as part of a long procession of police cars traveling from the Commerce Street ramp to the entrance to the county jail.
The armored truck was sitting atop the Commerce Street ramp. This was to be the vehicle that Oswald would be placed in to be taken to the county jail. The driver of the truck had concerns about backing the truck down the ramp, fearing that the truck would stall on it's way up the ramp after picking up it's very infamous passenger. The driver was also concerned with the overhead air conditioning ducts.
Fritz didn't learn of the plan to transfer Oswald in the armored truck until Sunday mid-morning. He objected heavily. Fritz went to Curry with the idea that the alleged assassin should secretly be transferred in one of the police cars in the procession and that the armored truck would be a decoy. Curry agreed and they set the plan into action.
Fritz ordered Lt. Rio Pierce to take one of the police cars from the basement, take it up the Main Street ramp and go around the block to the Commerce Street side to take the lead position in the procession to the county jail.
Jack Ruby wired the money to his dancer at 11:17 a.m. and headed to the top of the Main Street ramp as he walked out the door of the Western Union office, which was only a half block away from the top of the ramp. The money wire receipt was time stamped at 11:17.
As the car driven by Lt. Pierce made it's way up the Main Street ramp to begin it's trek around the block to the Commerce Street side, officer Roy Vaughn, who's sole job was to guard the top of the Main Street ramp, stepped out into the street to halt traffic so that Pierce's car could turn onto Main and head around the block. With Vaughn no longer guarding his post, Ruby entered the ramp and made his way down.
James Turner, an employee of WBAP-TV Fort Worth, was standing at the bottom of the ramp on the east side, near the railing.
He testified that shortly before the shooting of Oswald, he observed a man making his way down the ramp who he (Turner) was confident was Jack Ruby.
Det. Jim Leavelle spoke with Ruby while Ruby was in custody at City Hall. Leavelle asked Ruby how he got into the basement. Ruby stated that when the car driven by Rio Pierce came up the ramp and the guard went out into the street, he walked down the ramp.
Leavelle wanted to see if Ruby was being truthful so he asked his men if any of them knew who drove the car up the ramp just before the shooting. None of them knew who the driver was. Leavelle then went to Capt. Fritz and asked him who was driving the car. Fritz told Leavelle that he ordered Lt. Pierce to take one of the police cars in the basement and take it up the ramp to go around the block to Commerce Street.
None of Leavelle's men knew who drove the car up the ramp but Jack Ruby was perfectly aware of who was driving that car because he saw Pierce driving it with his own eyes.
Ruby gained entrance into the basement via the Main Street ramp.
Oswald was shot at 11:21 a.m., just four minutes after Ruby wired the money to his dancer. Ruby was in the basement no more than forty-five seconds before he shot the wretched waif Oswald. If Ruby had arrived in the basement much earlier, he would surely had been noticed and made to leave.
Quite the story.
No mention of Sgt Patrick Dean.
So the "story" is incomplete.
Fail.
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I'll just say this: Anyone who believes the WC's tale about how Ruby entered the basement is decades behind the information curve. This is one of the subjects that the HSCA did a very good job investigating, and the HSCA made a compelling case that the WC's story was fiction and that Ruby entered the basement with help from someone who was already in the basement.
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I'll just say this: Anyone who believes the WC's tale about how Ruby entered the basement is decades behind the information curve. This is one of the subjects that the HSCA did a very good job investigating, and the HSCA made a compelling case that the WC's story was fiction and that Ruby entered the basement with help from someone who was already in the basement.
Even if true, it doesn't mean there was a conspiracy or plan for Ruby to kill Oswald. Ruby was a well known figure to the DPD. Maybe they turned a blind eye to him because they didn't expect any trouble from him and had their hands full with the changing transfer plan etc. If a DPD officer saw Ruby enter and gave him a wink because he knew him, then so be it. What matters is whether Ruby was part of any conspiracy. And there is no credible evidence of that. In fact, all the circumstances lend themselves to this being a spontaneous and unplanned event.
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Even if true, it doesn't mean there was a conspiracy or plan for Ruby to kill Oswald. Ruby was a well known figure to the DPD. Maybe they turned a blind eye to him because they didn't expect any trouble from him and had their hands full with the changing transfer plan etc. If a DPD officer saw Ruby enter and gave him a wink because he knew him, then so be it. What matters is whether Ruby was part of any conspiracy. And there is no credible evidence of that. In fact, all the circumstances lend themselves to this being a spontaneous and unplanned event.
This was a lot more than just some officers seeing Ruby enter the basement and turning a blind eye. All the doors along routes leading to the basement were supposed to be locked, and all the entrances to the basement were supposed to be guarded. The HSCA determined that Ruby almost certainly entered the basement from the alley, and that the doors along the route from the alley were, strangely enough, unlocked, and that the policemen who were guarding the alley-side interior stairwell entrance to the garage oddly left their posts shortly before Ruby entered via that entrance. All just a big, whopping "coincidence"?
There's also the fact that Ruby tried to warn the DPD not to transfer Oswald on November 24. On November 24, 1963, Billy Grammer, as a young lieutenant on the Dallas police force, was working in the communications room when he received a call from Ruby. Grammer said Ruby warned him that the police had to change the plans for Oswald's transfer or "we're going to kill Oswald right there in the basement." Ruby did not identify himself by name, but Grammer recognized his voice. In an interview for the 1988 documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Grammer said he was absolutely certain Ruby was the caller. This is just part of the evidence that Ruby was trying to avoid having to carry out his assignment to shoot Oswald. Unfortunately, he did not succeed, and shortly after calling Grammer, he carried out the order to execute Oswald. Even the ultra-cautious HSCA could not ignore the compelling evidence that Ruby's killing of Oswald was not spontaneous.
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This was a lot more than just some officers seeing Ruby enter the basement and turning a blind eye. All the doors along routes leading to the basement were supposed to be locked, and all the entrances to the basement were supposed to be guarded. The HSCA determined that Ruby almost certainly entered the basement from the alley, and that the doors along the route from the alley were, strangely enough, unlocked, and that the policemen who were guarding the alley-side interior stairwell entrance to the garage oddly left their posts shortly before Ruby entered via that entrance. All just a big, whopping "coincidence"?
There's also the fact that Ruby tried to warn the DPD not to transfer Oswald on November 24. On November 24, 1963, Billy Grammer, as a young lieutenant on the Dallas police force, was working in the communications room when he received a call from Ruby. Grammer said Ruby warned him that the police had to change the plans for Oswald's transfer or "we're going to kill Oswald right there in the basement." Ruby did not identify himself by name, but Grammer recognized his voice. In an interview for the 1988 documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Grammer said he was absolutely certain Ruby was the caller. This is just part of the evidence that Ruby was trying to avoid having to carry out his assignment to shoot Oswald. Unfortunately, he did not succeed, and shortly after calling Grammer, he carried out the order to execute Oswald. Even the ultra-cautious HSCA could not ignore the compelling evidence that Ruby's killing of Oswald was not spontaneous.
To put it nicely, attributing that phone call to Ruby is farfetched. Would a planned event allow for Ruby to sleep late, go to the Western Union to send a meaningless money order thereby bringing him within just a few seconds of missing his chance, and bring his dog for the ride? It has all the hallmarks of a spontaneous event and none of a planned event. And all these years later there is no credible evidence that associates Ruby with any conspiracy to kill Oswald.
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To put it nicely, attributing that phone call to Ruby is farfetched. Would a planned event allow for Ruby to sleep late, go to the Western Union to send a meaningless money order thereby bringing him within just a few seconds of missing his chance, and bring his dog for the ride? It has all the hallmarks of a spontaneous event and none of a planned event. And all these years later there is no credible evidence that associates Ruby with any conspiracy to kill Oswald.
Gosh, that's silly. What is "farfetched" is to claim that Grammar just fabricated his account. I swear I hope none of you lone-gunman believers ever works in law enforcement, because you would never catch anyone.
The Western Union money order was clearly an attempt by Ruby to make his hit on Oswald seem like a spontaneous, compulsive act. Even the HSCA did not buy it.
If Ruby had waltzed into the basement the way the WC said he did, via the Main Street ramp, the spontaneous-act story would have a tiny bit of credibility, which of course is why the WC claimed, against all the evidence, that Ruby entered via the Main Street ramp.
But we know that's not how Ruby got into the basement. He entered via the circuitous route of taking the alley next to the Dallas Municipal Building and then using the stairway that led to the basement from that alley. And, conveniently enough, the door to the stairway was unlocked, and the entrance way at the bottom of that stairway suddenly became unguarded shortly before Ruby used it to enter the basement.
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Gosh, that's silly. What is "farfetched" is to claim that Grammar just fabricated his account. I swear I hope none of you lone-gunman believers ever works in law enforcement, because you would never catch anyone.
The Western Union money order was clearly an attempt by Ruby to make his hit on Oswald seem like a spontaneous, compulsive act. Even the HSCA did not buy it.
If Ruby had waltzed into the basement the way the WC said he did, via the Main Street ramp, the spontaneous-act story would have a tiny bit of credibility, which of course is why the WC claimed, against all the evidence, that Ruby entered via the Main Street ramp.
But we know that's not how Ruby got into the basement. He entered via the circuitous route of taking the alley next to the Dallas Municipal Building and then using the stairway that led to the basement from that alley. And, conveniently enough, the door to the stairway was unlocked, and the entrance way at the bottom of that stairway suddenly became unguarded shortly before Ruby used it to enter the basement.
Did Grammar catch Ruby and stop him from killing Oswald as an example of good law enforcement? LOL. The DPD received a lot of threats against Oswald. He was the most hated man in the world at that moment. If Grammar truly believed that one such call had come from a person who he could identify and who he knew even frequented the station (didn't he claim to even encounter Ruby that weekend) then presumably he might have done something. But he didn't. It is not a singular occurrence that participants in such events later embellish their stories. So Grammar received some threatening calls, Oswald is killed by Ruby, and then he later thinks that maybe one of these calls could have come from Ruby. Big deal. It doesn't mean that Ruby was the caller even if Grammar came to believe that later. We know nothing of the kind in terms of your alternative version of events as to how Ruby entered the basement.
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Did Grammar catch Ruby and stop him from killing Oswald as an example of good law enforcement? LOL. The DPD received a lot of threats against Oswald. He was the most hated man in the world at that moment. If Grammar truly believed that one such call had come from a person who he could identify and who he knew even frequented the station (didn't he claim to even encounter Ruby that weekend) then presumably he might have done something. But he didn't. It is not a singular occurrence that participants in such events later embellish their stories. So Grammar received some threatening calls, Oswald is killed by Ruby, and then he later thinks that maybe one of these calls could have come from Ruby. Big deal. It doesn't mean that Ruby was the caller even if Grammar came to believe that later. We know nothing of the kind in terms of your alternative version of events as to how Ruby entered the basement.
Grammar *did* do something, but his superiors ignored his account of the phone call.
You need to explain how you can rationally, actually believe that Ruby's killing of Oswald was a spontaneous act given how Ruby entered the basement and given his actions leading up to the killing.
Finally, you realize that Ruby said, on film, that Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy, right? And you realize that Ruby asked the WC to remove him from DPD custody and to question him in Washington, right?
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I'll just say this: Anyone who believes the WC's tale about how Ruby entered the basement is decades behind the information curve. This is one of the subjects that the HSCA did a very good job investigating, and the HSCA made a compelling case that the WC's story was fiction and that Ruby entered the basement with help from someone who was already in the basement.
The HSCA also concluded that Oswald fired all the shots which hit the President (only from above and behind). So what now?
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There's also the fact that Ruby tried to warn the DPD not to transfer Oswald on November 24. On November 24, 1963, Billy Grammer, as a young lieutenant on the Dallas police force, was working in the communications room when he received a call from Ruby. Grammer said Ruby warned him that the police had to change the plans for Oswald's transfer or "we're going to kill Oswald right there in the basement." Ruby did not identify himself by name, but Grammer recognized his voice. In an interview for the 1988 documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Grammer said he was absolutely certain Ruby was the caller. This is just part of the evidence that Ruby was trying to avoid having to carry out his assignment to shoot Oswald. Unfortunately, he did not succeed, and shortly after calling Grammer, he carried out the order to execute Oswald. Even the ultra-cautious HSCA could not ignore the compelling evidence that Ruby's killing of Oswald was not spontaneous.
Nonsense.
Where is the paperwork filed by Grammer telling of this mysterious phone call?
In 1964, during Ruby's trial, Wade and Alexander wanted to prove premeditation since they were going for first degree murder in the death of Oswald. Grammer, with his whole Ruby mysterious phone call bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns, would have been one of their star witnesses. Yet, we don't hear a single thing from Grammer until 1988, just in time for him to get his mug in front of the camera so that people like you will be talking about him still in the year 2020.
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Nonsense.
Where is the paperwork filed by Grammer telling of this mysterious phone call?
In 1964, during Ruby's trial, Wade and Alexander wanted to prove premeditation since they were going for first degree murder in the death of Oswald. Grammer, with his whole Ruby mysterious phone call bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns, would have been one of their star witnesses. Yet, we don't hear a single thing from Grammer until 1988, just in time for him to get his mug in front of the camera so that people like you will be talking about him still in the year 2020.
Oh, gosh. You must be kidding. If Grammer had been called to testify and had said he was certain that Ruby called him, that Ruby warned him about the shooting, and that Ruby urged the DPD to change the transfer plans, all holy crap would have broken loose over the case.
No matter what, no matter how clear the evidence, you guys will always cling to the no-conspiracy fable. The DPD lied through their teeth about the Main Street ramp, and the WC repeated their lie, precisely because they both knew that that was the only scenario that even remotely supported the spontaneous-act story. But then, the HSCA came along and utterly destroyed the Main Street ramp tale and proved that Ruby must have entered via the alleyway, that the door was unlocked, and that the entrance way was cleared of security just before Ruby approached. Yet, you guys blink twice and say, "Oh, well, but it was still spontaneous!"
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Gosh, that's silly. What is "farfetched" is to claim that Grammar just fabricated his account. I swear I hope none of you lone-gunman believers ever works in law enforcement, because you would never catch anyone.
The Western Union money order was clearly an attempt by Ruby to make his hit on Oswald seem like a spontaneous, compulsive act. Even the HSCA did not buy it.
If Ruby had waltzed into the basement the way the WC said he did, via the Main Street ramp, the spontaneous-act story would have a tiny bit of credibility, which of course is why the WC claimed, against all the evidence, that Ruby entered via the Main Street ramp.
But we know that's not how Ruby got into the basement. He entered via the circuitous route of taking the alley next to the Dallas Municipal Building and then using the stairway that led to the basement from that alley. And, conveniently enough, the door to the stairway was unlocked, and the entrance way at the bottom of that stairway suddenly became unguarded shortly before Ruby used it to enter the basement.
Several impertinent questions:
-- Is there proof that a door to the Dallas Municipal Building (adjacent to the alley) was unlocked on Sunday morning, 24 November 1963?
-- Has it ever been determined how long it would take Jack Ruby to get from the Western Union to the bottom of the Main Street ramp via the alley > Dallas Municipal Building hallway > stairway to the basement?
The time-stamped receipt Ruby received at the Western Union was for 11:17 AM. The shooting of Oswald was at 11.21 AM. Could Ruby have made the journey in less than 4 minutes?
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Oh, gosh. You must be kidding. If Grammer had been called to testify and had said he was certain that Ruby called him, that Ruby warned him about the shooting, and that Ruby urged the DPD to change the transfer plans, all holy crap would have broken loose over the case.
No matter what, no matter how clear the evidence, you guys will always cling to the no-conspiracy fable. The DPD lied through their teeth about the Main Street ramp, and the WC repeated their lie, precisely because they both knew that that was the only scenario that even remotely supported the spontaneous-act story. But then, the HSCA came along and utterly destroyed the Main Street ramp tale and proved that Ruby must have entered via the alleyway, that the door was unlocked, and that the entrance way was cleared of security just before Ruby approached. Yet, you guys blink twice and say, "Oh, well, but it was still spontaneous!"
How, exactly, would these conspiracy geniuses stay in second-to-second contact with Ruby, exactly? Smoke signals?
Ruby was just as nutty as Oswald.
Neither shooting needed a conspiracy.
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Nonsense.
Where is the paperwork filed by Grammer telling of this mysterious phone call?
In 1964, during Ruby's trial, Wade and Alexander wanted to prove premeditation since they were going for first degree murder in the death of Oswald. Grammer, with his whole Ruby mysterious phone call bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns, would have been one of their star witnesses. Yet, we don't hear a single thing from Grammer until 1988, just in time for him to get his mug in front of the camera so that people like you will be talking about him still in the year 2020.
Says the guy whose OP relies on things that Jim Leavelle told Dale Myers in 1993.