JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Margaret Kelly on February 08, 2020, 12:10:16 PM
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So hard to get this down to five but here are mine:
Conspiracy - Anthony Summers
Oswald And The CIA - Newman
Our Man In Mexico City - Jeff Morley
Marina And Lee - By Mrs Oswald
The Death of A President - William Manchester
What are yours and why?
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So hard to get this down to five but here are mine:
Conspiracy - Anthony Summers
Oswald And The CIA - Newman
Our Man In Mexico City - Jeff Morley
Marina And Lee - By Mrs Oswald
The Death of A President - William Manchester
What are yours and why?
"Marina And Lee - By Mrs Oswald" Why do you consider that book to be "authored" by Oswald's widow? In wording the "authorship", why, since that book was finally published a dozen years after she became Mrs. Porter, do you type "Mrs. Oswald"? Not a criticism, only wondering if you had a reason other than to avoid confusion of the "Mrs. Porter", who's that?!
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81&relPageId=306&search=priscilla
(http://jfkforum.com/images/MarinaHSCAtestimonyPage302Priscilla.jpg)
Michael Clark recently answered a request for book recommendations with words to this effect, "Do not read books about the JFK Assassination, instead do your own research. Seek out original or as close to original sources as possible."
I could have written that in perhaps different words conveying the identical sentiments as Michael's. IMO, if you read JFKA books and see JFK-the Movie, I think you develop a bias or a predisposition different from mine. I am "predisposed" because I was just old enough to understand and retain some of what was reported at the time, and since .... IOW, just having lived through the JFK admin., recalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaughn_Meader , Jackie's White House tour, and seeing a JFK motorcade in person, a week before the Cuban missile crisis became public, instigates a bias I also attribute to books. The predisposition interferes with openmindedness and replaces it with confirmation bias.
The authors, in too many instances, feed the reader what they believe the readers expect to read. If the book enjoys brisk sales and much other attention it could either be because it gives the confirmation bias reader his money's worth, or because it is chock full of truth. Hard to anticipate, why take a chance, when original materials for 25 years now, have been accumulating online?
Any able writer can view JFK-the Movie and be adequately trained by it to then write a manuscript and pitch it to Trine Day or Sky Horse.
It is, unfortunately, that formulaic. More so than "CT formulaic" ? Probably not .... See Bill O'Reilly's "Killing Kennedy", just one of the O'Reilly "Killing" books series.
Who are the five most reliable, accurate, best supported by the facts presented, book authors?, seems a companion question to the OP question.
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"Marina And Lee - By Mrs Oswald" Why do you consider that book to be "authored" by Oswald's widow? In wording the "authorship", why, since that book was finally published a dozen years after she became Mrs. Porter, do you type "Mrs. Oswald"? Not a criticism, only wondering if you had a reason other than to avoid confusion of the "Mrs. Porter", who's that?!
Without Mrs Oswald, there wouldn't be a book - just Priscilla McMillan giving her own opinion. I don't use Porter in case some people don't know who that is.
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Without Mrs Oswald, there wouldn't be a book - just Priscilla McMillan giving her own opinion. ...
I think the question anyone interested in events related to the 13 years long "book project" should be asking is, was it a book, or an "Op" intersecting other "Ops"? I hope this post is a brief but accurate presentation of what the government, witnesses such as Priscilla, book authors, and the "PTB" have "fed us" one seemingly disjointed but, at least indicated by the evidence, actually interlocking pieces of a rather complex and still lacking enough detail to fully understand PUZZLE, spoonful at a time, for 56 years!
http://archive.is/esTuB
.....
https://archive.is/o/esTuB/www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95330&relPageId=42
(https://archive.is/esTuB/341f69f3897bf5d6d30cea5923ff3b0c4430a59b.jpg)
.....
The last sentence in this article makes an argument that the net effect of Priscilla and her publisher, Harper's, on the American people was to keep Marina bottled up and away from public discourse for fourteen years....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Marina15yearsPriscillaPerryKnowlton.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DavenportCIAsamBallen.jpg)
Guess who "assigned" Jerre Hastings with the task of "accompanying" Priscilla and Marina? It's not difficult to ascertain via online resources to confirm that David Davenport was Priscilla's first cousin and that Davenport was divorcing his wife and had moved to Alaska from New Mexico in 1964. Hastings was driving Davenport's car....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaHastingsBodyguard.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineSedonaJeromeDallasMorningNews.jpg)
Margaret, do not misunderstand.... Marina took the book advance and initially assumed she had latched on to another of several lucrative deals.
Priscilla's cousin David, and POTUS advisor Clark Clifford's aunt's husband, Hastings could play rough when necessity dictated it.
Perhaps I just don't read the correct authors, the explainers....
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/11/us/clark-clifford-a-major-adviser-to-four-presidents-is-dead-at-91.html
Clark Clifford, a Major Adviser To Four Presidents, Is Dead at 91
By Marilyn Berger Oct. 11, 1998
...President Johnson was hardly in office 24 hours when he called for Mr. Clifford. Faced with the sudden and enormous task of running the country after Kennedy's assassination, Johnson talked with Mr. Clifford for two hours, then three, then four. It was late in the evening, Mr. Clifford remembered, when Lady Bird Johnson entered the Oval Office and reminded her husband, ''Just because you're President now doesn't mean you don't have to eat dinner.''...
.....
2-1/2 years later, Clark Cilfford's first cousin JoAnne McAdams
filed a lawsuit against that man, her stepfather Jerome Jerre Hastings Hasty, his friend David Davenport,
and several doctors for involuntarily committing her to the State of New Mexico mental hospital.
No one reacts to those facts because they do not know what to make of them despite the uncontested
facts that support all of that as true!
Caprio and company must read it in a 40 year old book to embrace it unconditionally.
Las Vegas Optic from Las Vegas, New Mexico on July 31, 1967 ? Page 1
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/35602601/ (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=J-hVWuXOOo64zwKck7Vg&q=complaint+that+she+had+come+to+Santa+Fe+to+visit+her++mother%2C+Mrs.+Marguerite+McAdams+Hasty%2C+and+her+mother%27s+husband%2C+Jerome++Hasty%2C+and+David+Davenport%2C+a+friend+of+Hasty%2C+&oq=complaint+that+she+had+come+to+Santa+Fe+to+visit+her++mother%2C+Mrs.+Marguerite+McAdams+Hasty%2C+and+her+mother%27s+husband%2C+Jerome++Hasty%2C+and+David+Davenport%2C+a+friend+of+Hasty%2C+&gs_l=psy-ab.12...2170.2170.0.3771.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0..1.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.1.108.6..35i39k1.109.dF6CizbQEO4)
Miss Me Adams, who is not represented by an attorney in the suit relates in the complaint that she had come to Santa Fe to visit her mother, Mrs. Marguerite McAdams Hasty, and her mother's husband, Jerome Hasty, and David Davenport, a friend of Hasty, induced her to consult Dr. Roscnbaum. As a result, she claims, the ...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QP7Y7FFiUSU/UXDF-gVFmBI/AAAAAAAAA8M/G8lNTcIcos4/s720/PriscillaDavenportHastyLawsuit1967_1of2.jpg)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1525290.1385076841!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_1200/president-assassin.jpg)
Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK. (JOSH REYNOLDS/JOSH REYNOLDS PHOTO)
1954 Obit:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OxCkEmgfcEU/UYOxYlZxEoI/AAAAAAAABB0/sszwxU8Ifgk/s720/PriscillaObitWilliamDouglasMcAdams.jpg)
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/449857/
Alton Evening Telegraph ? 21 December 1950 ? Page 18
....Miss Margaret Clifford Weds in Chevy Chuse The marriage of Lt. William
Henry Lanagan, jr., United States Marine Corps, and Miss Margaret
Pepperell Clifford, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Clark, McAdams Clifford, were
married Wednesday at 4 o'clock in All Saints Episcopal Church, Chevy
Chase, Md. A reception was held at the recently acquired estate of the
Cliffords, 8551 Rockville Pike, Bethesda, Md., after the wedding. Guests
included the bride's paternal grandmother, Mrs. Frank A. Clifford of St.
Louis, and uncle, William D. McAdams of New York.
Chicago Tribune - Aug 16, 1954
RIES William Douglas McAdims Services for William Doug- las McAdams, 67, of 734 Lin- coln av., Wlnnetka, who died SaPersonay in his home, will be held at 10 am Wednesday in the Congregational churc4, Winnetka. He had been a Winnetka resident for forty years and also maintained a home ..Mr. McAdams leaves his wife, Marguerite Bowman McAdams; a son, William D. ... three daughters, Joan A. McAdams, Mrs. IVarilyn Barton and Mrs. Marguerite Borregaard.....
1940 U.S. Census snippet of a household in New Trier (Winnetka)Illinois:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tXbbdVGZ0gk/UYOxgcMPHSI/AAAAAAAABB8/3vCZ7manKpc/s1280/PriscillaHastyMcAdams1940CensusNewTrierILL.jpg)
On April 26, 1940, Jerome A Hastings was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a buyer at a country club. His education level was C2, two years of college. Hastings' annual income was just over $300. In 1935 his residence was in Flemington, NJ.
On May 18, Jerome Hasty was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a officer at a country club. His education level was C1, one year of college. Hasty's annual income was just over $600. In 1935 his residence was in Carmel-by-the-Sea, CAL.
26 years later, Jerome Allen Hasty files a notice of legal change of name from Hasty to Hastings:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qdSAs_XwtTc/UXIny-MCVFI/AAAAAAAAA8s/1q5I4NBVwU4/s720/PriscillaDavenportHastyToHastingsNameChangeNotice100366.jpg)
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I think the question anyone interested in events related to the 13 years long "book project" should be asking is, was it a book, or an "Op" intersecting other "Ops"?
The book "Marina And Lee" though more or less matches her testimony. It also matches Norman Mailers interviews of her for his book "Oswalds Tale" in the 1990's. I don't think Marina had anything of value to hide if the assassination was a government organized assassination. Lee never seemed to keep Marina in on his activities.
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The book "Marina And Lee" though more or less matches her testimony. It also matches Norman Mailers interviews of her for his book "Oswalds Tale" in the 1990's. I don't think Marina had anything of value to hide if the assassination was a government organized assassination. Lee never seemed to keep Marina in on his activities.
The second part of "Oswald's Tale", as you know, is about the Oswald's lives upon his/their return to the US. The first part is about Oswald in the Soviet Union and about the lives and histories of many of the people he met when there. And about the efforts by the KGB to figure out who this odd Oswald person was.
Mailer paid, if I recall correctly, about $60,000 to Priscilla McMillan Johnson Johnson McMillan for the rights to use her work in his book. Almost all of that second part of his work, as I see it, is straight out of her book "Marina and Lee." There's very little original material from Mailer other than his own interpretations and conclusions about what happened.
Mailer said that Marina's memory was "almost completely shattered" by all of the media and books that have come out. So I don't think her account, for him, was worth much. It's a useful but terribly flawed book. "Marina and Lee", on the other hand, is for me tremendously valuable.
Another good book to me is Thomas Mallon's "Mrs. Paine's Garage." This is quite helpful on explaining - as best as we can figure it out - Oswald's thinking those last two months leading up to the assassination. Mallon is also a terrific prose writer too; so it's a good read.
Mailer discussed his interviews with Marina here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?64863-1/oswalds-tale-american-mystery&start=1946. It's at the roughly 33:00 minute mark.
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The second part of "Oswald's Tale", as you know, is about the Oswald's lives upon his/their return to the US. The first part is about Oswald in the Soviet Union and about the lives and histories of many of the people he met when there. And about the efforts by the KGB to figure out who this odd Oswald person was.
Mailer paid, if I recall correctly, about $60,000 to Priscilla McMillan Johnson for the rights to use her work in his book. Almost all of that second part of his work, as I see it, is straight out of her book "Lee and Marina." There's very little original material from Mailer other than his own interpretations and conclusions about what happened.
Mailer said that Marina's memory was "almost completely shattered" by all of the media and books that have come out. So I don't think her account, for him, was worth much. It's a useful but terribly flawed book. "Marina and Lee", on the other hand, is for me tremendously valuable.
Another good book to me is Thomas Mallon's "Mrs. Paine's Garage." This is quite helpful on explaining - as best as we can figure it out - Oswald's thinking those last two months leading up to the assassination. Mallon is also a terrific prose writer too; so it's a good read.
Mailer discussed his interviews with Marina here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?64863-1/oswalds-tale-american-mystery&start=1946. It's at the roughly 33:00 minute mark.
Okay then, Steve.... I'll just have to accept the "tightness" of this "ball of yarn" as mere coincidence, or is it you who simply ignores what cannot be dealt with comfortably and conveniently? The FBI hierarchy and WC managers got a much closer look at Marina when it mattered and certainly disagreed with Margaret's, and I assume your similar high (or neutral) opinion of her.
Using just these two items as contradictory benchmarks to your opinions, I have to wonder if the three of us, so far participating in this thread, breath the same air, on the same planet.
The first item is the background of Priscilla's HSCA testimony that her progress on the book was impeded by the "concealed suicide" in 1969 of her father, Stuart. I would think the background details of the last person to see Priscilla's father alive, considering her HSCA testimony, the same individual who reported Stuart as missing, to police, would be an object of increased interest to HSCA, but instead, Priscilla's testimony was classified as secret, and was "buried".
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaStuartJohnsonDeath033169_2of2.jpg)
The second is this, unless you can make yourself believe Priscilla did not know, in 1978, that her first cousin David Coit Davenport was CIA, but WC witness Sam Ballen, a friend of DeMohrenschildt, did just happen to know that Davenport was CIA.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaCousinDavenportCredit1977Book.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevinePriscillaNoKnowingContact.jpg)
Two people, Priscilla and Sam, who had met and briefly interacted with an obscure, "lone nut" who was simply attempting to make a name for himself that he anticipated would live on in infamy.... reunite at a dinner table. If the walls had ears.....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaDavenportBallen.jpg)
Unless I am misreading Davenport's obit, doesn't the top portion of the middle column describe a "career in intelligence"?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-amh6xCwqOvs/UWfquj5t8VI/AAAAAAAAA48/WGZmjRlMzLU/s1152/PriscillaCousinDavenport2001Obit.jpg)
I've already documented that Priscilla placed herself and Marina in Davenport's "custody" in anticipation of the imminent release of the WCR, and that Davenport assigned his Santa Fe friend Jerome Allen Hasty AKA Hastings to shadow the two ladies, and that Hastings and Davenport were accused by the first cousin of Clark Clifford of setting her up, a year later, in 1965, for involuntary commitment to a New Mexico state mental institution.
More on Tom Devine..... https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=WUBRINY-1
his M.I.T. frat mate happened to become Priscilla's CIA handler....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineCoitNavalRadioSigmaChi.jpg)
Students Don Ear Muffs to Shut Out Band Music
Daily Boston Globe - Aug 14, 1947
... rhumba music yesterday asked the Boston Licensing Board to shut down
the Hotel ... one of 16 Tech students livings in the adjoining Sigma Chi
fraternity house ... Other student were Thomas Devine of Rochester who
told of taking refuge in ..
The bond of the 16 Sigma Chi frat housemates was apparently strong and quite enduring, even 64 years later!
https://web.archive.org/web/20160406175946/http://sigmachi.mit.edu/docs/beaver_sigs/BeaverSig-spring2009.pdf
Page four, left column:
Later, in Maryland,
we visited Barbara Coit, the recent
widow of another Alpha Theta Sig,
Garry Coit ’46, who died in February
2008.”
Lawsuit over little bridge still cutts wide chasm in Shore town
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1992-07-31-1992213129-story.html
Jul 31, 1992 - ... opposing the bridge are Mr. Becker, a retired aviation lawyer; L. Garry and Barbara M. Coit, two former Central Intelligence Agency officials; .
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95706&relPageId=3
PARTIAL CONTACT REPORT ON MEETING WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON 30-31 JAN 196 pg 1
WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON 30-31 JAN 196 N 3/3/1964 COIT GARRY
"Dear Priscilla" https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14786#relPageId=2&tab=page
CIA FROM GARRY TO PRISCILLA TITLE LETTER RE
RIF#: 104-10135-10090 (03/02/65) CIA#: 80T0135
LETTER, "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION" AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE pg 1
Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 49
ORIGINATOR CIA FROM COIT GARRY TO PRISCILLA TITLE LETTER "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE DATE 06/18/65 PAGES 1 SUBJECTS
RIF#: 104-10135-10092 (06/18/65) CIA#: 80T01357A
https://books.google.com (https://books.google.com/books?id=jRvdwoKQOgQC&pg=PA311&lpg=PA311&dq=china+bemis+lias+devine&source=bl&ots=u8-pu-IG1u&sig=ACfU3U2RufFpqXEa3czKvK2siD8VNd5ACw&hl=en&ppis=_c&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwislKmysMXnAhWkVt8KHfQCDwEQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=china%20bemis%20lias%20devine&f=false)
The China Diary of George H. W. Bush: The Making of a Global ...
Jeffrey A. Engel - 2011 - History
Bemis, Lias and Devine had a meeting regarding my political future—very thoughtful of them.5 All I know now is to do the best job one can here. There is no ...
Dec. 6 specially decorated Bush '41 Train engine, was Billy Joe Lord on board?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=38753;topic=1439.0
.....
All that Lord described that is directly material to the charge of Bush and those closest to him literally muscling Lord
in 1976, is on the table. However, I am now convinced after this week the haves are so far ahead, it cannot even be
a contest, anymore.
First, the core accusation, hyper curiousity displayed by team Bush towards Lord knowledge, as the HSCA geared up
and it had become clear republicans would lose control of the presidency and of the CIA. This answers the question
of why risk rattling Billy Lord's cage if you were among the innermost Bush circle?
(http://jfkforum.com/images/BillyLordLetterDescriptionCrop.jpg)
....
Jim Beamis, full of advice for Hurt as described in the Lord letter is a slam dunk match for Bush Kennebunkport
summer neighbor and lifelong friend.:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/65388323/fitzgerald-bemiss
FitzGerald Bemiss
BIRTH 2 Oct 1922
DEATH 7 Feb 2011 (aged 88)
BURIAL Hollywood Cemetery
Richmond, Richmond City, Virginia, USA
A question I asked Dr. John McAdams during a discussion about Billy Joe Lord's early 1977 letter to President Jimmy Carter....
https://jfkfacts.org/exchange-on-the-bush-did-it-theory/#comment-861586
Tom S. March 7, 2016 at 5:47 pm
....
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/L%20Disk/Lord%20Billie%20Joe/Item%2001.pdf – page 2,
Feb 2, 1977 – was in the offing through two Midland men: Mr. Jim Allison, publisher of the ultra- … Mr. Beamis (?), chairman of the Republican Party in Virginia and owner of “a string of hotels” in that state, for help in persuading me to tell ….. Billy Joe Lord on 11/30/63, and two copies of an affidavit of a Billy Joe Lord as it
The researcher (Henry Hurt) said he had asked an acquaintance, a Mr. Beamis (?), chairman of the Republican Party in Virginia and owner of “a string of hotels” in that state, for help in persuading me to tell what I know, about Oswald….
....Forgive me, but my expectation of a reasonable person is if they were actually considering what I presented and responding to it, they might ask, “why do you think “Jim Beamis” was Bush’s extremely close friend and close political advisor, Gerry Bemiss?
continued
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6 Seconds in Dallas
Accessories After the Fact
Rush to Judgment
Death of a President
The Manchester Affair
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The Manchester Affair
Thanks, hadn't even heard of that book. Gonna put that on to "to read" list. Thumb1:
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1) The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, by Larry SPersonivan
2) With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit, by Dale Myers
3) Case Closed, by Gerald Posner
4) The Death of a President: November 20-November 25, 1963, by William Manchester
5) Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F Kennedy,by Vincent Bugliosi **
**I haven't actually read Bugliosi's book from beginning to end because it's too damn long.
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Okay then, Steve.... I'll just have to accept the "tightness" of this "ball of yarn" as mere coincidence, or is it you who simply ignores what cannot be dealt with comfortably and conveniently? The FBI hierarchy and WC managers got a much closer look at Marina when it mattered and certainly disagreed with Margaret's, and I assume your similar high (or neutral) opinion of her.
Using just these two items as contradictory benchmarks to your opinions, I have to wonder if the three of us, so far participating in this thread, breath the same air, on the same planet.
The first item is the background of Priscilla's HSCA testimony that her progress on the book was impeded by the "concealed suicide" in 1969 of her father, Stuart. I would think the background details of the last person to see Priscilla's father alive, considering her HSCA testimony, the same individual who reported Stuart as missing, to police, would be an object of increased interest to HSCA, but instead, Priscilla's testimony was classified as secret, and was "buried".
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaStuartJohnsonDeath033169_2of2.jpg)
The second is this, unless you can make yourself believe Priscilla did not know, in 1978, that her first cousin David Coit Davenport was CIA, but WC witness Sam Ballen, a friend of DeMohrenschildt, did just happen to know that Davenport was CIA.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaCousinDavenportCredit1977Book.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevinePriscillaNoKnowingContact.jpg)
Two people, Priscilla and Sam, who had met and briefly interacted with an obscure, "lone nut" who was simply attempting to make a name for himself that he anticipated would live on in infamy.... reunite at a dinner table. If the walls had ears.....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaDavenportBallen.jpg)
Unless I am misreading Davenport's obit, doesn't the top portion of the middle column describe a "career in intelligence"?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-amh6xCwqOvs/UWfquj5t8VI/AAAAAAAAA48/WGZmjRlMzLU/s1152/PriscillaCousinDavenport2001Obit.jpg)
I've already documented that Priscilla placed herself and Marina in Davenport's "custody" in anticipation of the imminent release of the WCR, and that Davenport assigned his Santa Fe friend Jerome Allen Hasty AKA Hastings to shadow the two ladies, and that Hastings and Davenport were accused by the first cousin of Clark Clifford of setting her up, a year later, in 1965, for involuntary commitment to a New Mexico state mental institution.
More on Tom Devine..... https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=WUBRINY-1
his M.I.T. frat mate happened to become Priscilla's CIA handler....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineCoitNavalRadioSigmaChi.jpg)
The bond of the 16 Sigma Chi frat housemates was apparently strong and quite enduring, even 64 years later!
Lawsuit over little bridge still cutts wide chasm in Shore town
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1992-07-31-1992213129-story.html
Jul 31, 1992 - ... opposing the bridge are Mr. Becker, a retired aviation lawyer; L. Garry and Barbara M. Coit, two former Central Intelligence Agency officials; .
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95706&relPageId=3
PARTIAL CONTACT REPORT ON MEETING WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON 30-31 JAN 196 pg 1
WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON 30-31 JAN 196 N 3/3/1964 COIT GARRY
"Dear Priscilla" https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14786#relPageId=2&tab=page
CIA FROM GARRY TO PRISCILLA TITLE LETTER RE
RIF#: 104-10135-10090 (03/02/65) CIA#: 80T0135
LETTER, "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION" AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE pg 1
Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 49
ORIGINATOR CIA FROM COIT GARRY TO PRISCILLA TITLE LETTER "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE DATE 06/18/65 PAGES 1 SUBJECTS
RIF#: 104-10135-10092 (06/18/65) CIA#: 80T01357A
Dec. 6 specially decorated Bush '41 Train engine, was Billy Joe Lord on board?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=38753;topic=1439.0
A question I asked Dr. John McAdams during a discussion about Billy Joe Lord's early 1977 letter to President Jimmy Carter....
....Forgive me, but my expectation of a reasonable person is if they were actually considering what I presented and responding to it, they might ask, “why do you think “Jim Beamis” was Bush’s extremely close friend and close political advisor, Gerry Bemiss?
continued
Tom: My post was responding to the other poster, Ms. Kelly not yours.
I have no idea what Bush and Beamis and this or that has to do with what Mailer and/or McMillan wrote or what the best books on the assassination are. I think your material is for a different thread.
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Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F Kennedy[/b],by Vincent Bugliosi **
**I haven't actually read Bugliosi's book from beginning to end because it's too damn long.
Same here. Its 2500 pages long when you include the notes PDF that comes in CD format with the book. Though the notes are eminently readable in and of themselves. Lots of useful info in there.
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1. Reclaiming History
2. Case Closed
3. Marina and Lee
4. With Malice
5. Oswald's Tale
Honorable Mention:
Oswald's Game
Live by the Sword
The Interloper
Assassination Logic
I Was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak
Mrs. Paine's Garage
False Witness
Legend
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Same here. Its 2500 pages long when you include the notes PDF that comes in CD format with the book. Though the notes are eminently readable in and of themselves. Lots of useful info in there.
The book organizes the events (usually chronologically) which helps in finding items of interest. And the source notes are plentiful, which makes verification and additional details easier to locate. I am considering getting the kindle version because the kindle has search capabilities of its own. And I suspect that it also has links integrated into the source notes (that are in the text of the book). If so, this would greatly enhance the user experience by making the source notes instantly accessible. Does anyone use the kindle version?
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The book organizes the events (usually chronologically) which helps in finding items of interest. And the source notes are plentiful, which makes verification and additional details easier to locate. I am considering getting the kindle version because the kindle has search capabilities of its own. And I suspect that it also has links integrated into the source notes (that are in the text of the book). If so, this would greatly enhance the user experience by making the source notes instantly accessible. Does anyone use the kindle version?
I don't see the kindle version on Amazon? I'd be suspicious of it though. The audible version of the book is not of the entire book but only the first section of the book. It might be that the kindle version only covers the first section too. That would be no good to you.
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I don't see the kindle version on Amazon? I'd be suspicious of it though. The audible version of the book is not of the entire book but only the first section of the book. It might be that the kindle version only covers the first section too. That would be no good to you.
Thanks, kindle stuff is sometimes elusive when trying to find it. Sometimes I find it on Amazon but not in the kindle store (through my kindle). Or, as in this case, the other way around. Reclaiming History is in the kindle store (through my kindle) for $29.99. I already downloaded a free sample which includes the table of contents. The table of contents is complete, including the source notes. The only disclaimer I see says that some images are not displayed due to permissions issues. The enhanced typesetting is indicated to be “enabled” which, I think, means that the source notes in the text would be live links to the actual source notes. (But I am not sure about that.) Anyway, it is tempting to buy it for that aspect even though I have the printed version. I just haven’t pulled the trigger yet.
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The enhanced typesetting is indicated to be “enabled” which, I think, means that the source notes in the text would be live links to the actual source notes. (But I am not sure about that.) Anyway, it is tempting to buy it for that aspect even though I have the printed version. I just haven’t pulled the trigger yet.
Yes, the Kindle version has links to the source notes.
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Yes, the Kindle version has links to the source notes.
Thanks!!
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So hard to get this down to five but here are mine:
Conspiracy - Anthony Summers
Oswald And The CIA - Newman
Our Man In Mexico City - Jeff Morley
Marina And Lee - By Mrs Oswald
The Death of A President - William Manchester
What are yours and why?
I don't think I can break it down to just five, and I'd organize the list a different way. These are what I would call the essentials:
Foundational Works
The WCR
The HSCA Report
Death of a President -- Manchester
Marina and Lee --McMillan
First Generation Criticism
Rush To Judgement and A Citizen's Dissent -- Lane
Accessories After the Fact --Meagher
Inquest -- Epstein
Six Seconds in Dallas -- Thompson
The Garrison Case
On the Trail of the Assassins -- Garrison
Counterplot -- Epstein
American Grotesque --Kirkwood
The Garrison Case -- Brenner
False Witness -- Lambert
Let Justice Be Done -- Davey
Later Books that Summarize Later Conspiracy Thinking
Crossfire --Marrs
Conspiracy/Not in Your Lifetime -- Summers
JFK and the Unspeakable -- Douglass
(I should add)Rebuttals to WC Criticism
Reclaiming History -- Bugliosi
You Be the Jury/Final Disclosure -- Belin
Case Closed -- Posner (BTW, CC is the weak sister in this threesome)
Stuff About Stuff About the Assassination
A Cruel and Shocking Act -- Shennon
Praise from a Future Generation -- Kelin
The Last Investigation -- Fonzi
Collections of Source Material
The WCH
The HSCA Hearings and Appendices
Pictures of the Pain -- Trask
The Killing of a President -- Groden
In the Eye of History -- Law
There is one more book, that I think is the best JFK assassination book ever, not because I agree with it's conclusions, but because it takes a fairly outre' notion and makes a surprisingly gripping personal narrative about it. That book is Best Evidence.
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Books?
Best "authors" were at EF:
Thomas Purvis
Robert Charles Dunne
Mark Knight
You could learn a great deal by reading the old threads of these folks.
And reading the various testimonies and reports from the HCSA, at al, in the 70s.
Nothing like Phillips and others talking about the Guatemala coup in 54, or knocking off that general in Chile, all in the name of...bananas and copper. :)
All the books I see listed are authored by a fine group of money grubbing rogues and charlatans. Particularly awful are Posner ( plagiarist), Bugliosi ( he was a district attorney,..i.e. get the grand jury to indict a ham sandwich) Meyers ( ( fabulist) Priscilla ( CIA asset, actually applied to work there) . The "conspiracy" folks aren't much better. John " Two Oswalds" Armstrong, David " Two Coffins" Lifton ( pompous , to boot), etc.
Instead of facts, with all these authors, we get some facts, sourced, some unsourced stories, and much conjecture. And theories.
No theories. Just facts. Like the excellent thread started by the OP on those library books. Thanks.
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Books?
Best "authors" were at EF:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qpb0MKn/giphy.gif)
JohnM
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I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned 'Accessories After The Fact' by Sylvia Meagher, published in 1967.
I'm working my way through it at the moment, and I think it's terriffic!
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I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned 'Accessories After The Fact' by Sylvia Meagher, published in 1967.
I'm working my way through it at the moment, and I think it's terriffic!
Its definitely one of the must read books. And its stood the test of time.
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**I haven't actually read Bugliosi's book from beginning to end because it's too damn long.
People are better off reading Posner. It’s the same argument made much more succinctly without all of the tedious repetition and rhetoric.
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I haven't actually read Bugliosi's book from beginning to end because it's too damn long.
People are better off reading Posner. It’s the same argument made much more succinctly without all of the tedious repetition and rhetoric.
Or you could take both books and go supply some port-o-lets :-\
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Or you could take both books and go supply some port-o-lets :-\
Posner and Bugliosi are well studied in the assassination but they don't allow all the evidence to have its say. That's their big downfall.
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Tom: My post was responding to the other poster, Ms. Kelly not yours.
I have no idea what Bush and Beamis and this or that has to do with what Mailer and/or McMillan wrote or what the best books on the assassination are. I think your material is for a different thread.
Posner and Bugliosi are well studied in the assassination but they don't allow all the evidence to have its say. That's their big downfall.
Steve's reply to my presentation of well documented evidence was disingenuous, but at least he replied. You haven't bothered, yet you say, "but they don't allow all the evidence to have its say. ....
In reply to Steve.... Bush thanks three people for meeting to discuss Bush's political future. One, Tom Devine, just happened, as the story goes, to have suddenly come out of long retired CIA officer status to meet with DeMohrenschildt just two weeks after the shooting attempt at Edwin Walker and several more contacts with George DeM. over the next few weeks, "reading in" Bush to segments of the WuBriny Op. Devine just happened to be one of 15 fraternity house residents of Priscilla's CIA handler, Garry Coit.
Another of the three at the 1975 meeting to decide Bush's political future was Bush's best friend. Gerry Bemiss. A kindergartner could glean what Steve claims he does not, out of the Bush "coincidences" in my post.
books.google.com › books
Who's who in Commerce and Industry - Volume 14 - Page 87
1965
FOUND INSIDE - PAGE 87
Va.. Apr. 9, 1915; s. BrianJoseph and Mabel (Johnson) В.: R.S. in Ci-iiistry. U. Va., 1936. B.S. in Chem. En- grinr. ... BEMISS. Fitz Gera Id, hotel and retail store exec, state senator; b. Richmond, Va., Oct. 2, 1922; s. Samuel Merrifield and ...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145503&relPageId=135
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY In ...
PDF
the Hotel Hoorn and slootro hoe the transcript then was absolutely ... Mr. Bemis (?), chairman of the Republican Party in Virginia and owner of "a string of hotels... Billy Joe Lord on 11/30/63, and two copies of an affidavit of a Billy Joe Lord as it ...
And of course, the intriguing item that apparently is not even suitable for discussion, anywhere, ever.... Priscilla testified she was unable to work for a time because her father's death was a concealed suicide. This was the sister of the last man, James A. Thomas, to see Priscilla's father alive and report hims missing to police..... The sister happened to be Eleanor Lansing Thomas, maid of honor and cousin, along with her brother, of Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles and his daughter, the bride.:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6215/6301243435_30b9d21c43_b.jpg)
Tom Devine's best man just happened to be William B. Macomber, Jr.... former CIA, former top aide to WC commissioner and Yale bonesman, Sen. John Sherman Cooper (R-KY), and top aide to John Foster Dulles. Macomber married another top aide of Dulles, Phyliss Bernau.
Apologies for the kindergarten reference, but it is in reply to Steve turning off his "learned" demeanor to denigrate me personally, reverting to his thoughtful, reasonable "side" after he pulls his, "Scully, I don't know what you're talking about, act."
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Posner and Bugliosi are well studied in the assassination but they don't allow all the evidence to have its say. That's their big downfall.
What book on the assassination does allow all the evidence to have its say? Certainly not 'Accessories After The Fact' by Sylvia Meagher, which you believe has stood the test of time.
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Posner and Bugliosi are well studied in the assassination but they don't allow all the evidence to have its say. That's their big downfall.
Posner is a known plagiarist, in Case Closed, and a lot of his other dreck.
His big, uh, contribution, was Oswald's "smirk", which obviously was a sign of guilt. Yeah.
¹
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It's been listed twice before in this thread.
It used to be a favorite of mine. But the book evaluates evidence through an ultra-liberal anti-authority lens. The Commission and police are always painted in a dark light and she's not adverse to introducing her own assumptions.
It is terribly in need of updating, as when she faults the Commission for not publishing (or examining "so far as is known") the photographs and films of Hugh Betzner, Robert J. Hughes and Ralph Simpson (p 25-26). The first two were published in Life magazine a few months after Meagher's book came out, and the Commission determined that "Ralph Simpson" was a prank caller. On page 26, she charges the documentary "Four Days in November" with suppressing a sound track that could "resolve the problems of how many shots were fired, and of the interval between the shots." As if to suggest a cover-up, Meagher writes: "The Warren Report, like the sound track at the crucial moment, is silent." I figure reasonable researchers watching "Four Days in November" would figure out the crowd and motorcycle noises were generic and dubbed.
None of this to do with Betzner, Hughes, "Simpson" and "Four Days" is corrected or amended in the book's 1976 reprint. Yet she faults the Commission for "disbanding" so as not to keep pace with developments.
Meagher's entire view of the assassination, the view that colored her interpretation of it, can be summed up by her admission that after hearing about the shooting that she said, "I know they'll blame a communist for this."
She had already made her mind up as to what happened.
Of course, a communist wasn't blamed for the assassination. Lee Oswald was blamed. They didn't blame Castro, or the Soviets, or domestic communists; they didn't use the event to create a "Red Scare." They said Oswald, alone, for reasons unknown killed JFK.
If these evil militarists and fanatic anti-communists wanted to use the assassination for their own interests, then why act like this? Why clear Castro? Why clear domestic leftists? Why blame a sole gunman for reasons unknown?
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Posner and Bugliosi are well studied in the assassination but they don't allow all the evidence to have its say. That's their big downfall.
***Insert Gary Coleman catchphrase***
To be honest, I suspect that Posner's book was an attempt to cash in on the furor surrounding Stone's JFK. Through that prism, I didn't expect much from it, but it actually exceeded my expectations. Still, it's something he put together fairly quickly. In comparison, Reclaiming History is a monument to the OCD of Bugliosi's soul. Agree with him or not, there isn't a single work on the assassination with the breadth and depth of Reclaiming History.
....Which is why it's such a massive slog.
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So hard to get this down to five but here are mine:
Conspiracy - Anthony Summers
Oswald And The CIA - Newman
Our Man In Mexico City - Jeff Morley
Marina And Lee - By Mrs Oswald
The Death of A President - William Manchester
What are yours and why?
Margaret,
Who needs books when we have the blockbuster movie JFK by Oliver "I Like Vladimir Putin and My Son Works For RT" Stone?
-- MWT :)
PS Why would anyone like anything by Jefferson "Nosenko Was A True Defector" Morley?
Have you read my one-star Amazon review, under the username dumptrumputin, of his abominable book The Ghost?
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Its possible to read something and find it valuable even if you disagree with it
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Its possible to read something and find it valuable even if you disagree with it
Yeah, and when it comes to stuff written about the CIA by Morley and his ilk (Mangold, Wise, James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, Cleveland C. Cram, Bruce Solie, Leonard McCoy, Richards J. Heuer, John L. Hart, et al.), be sure to read Tennent H. Bagley's Spy Wars and Ghosts of the Spy Wars, and Mark Riebling's Wedge, first, otherwise you'll just become another "useful idiot" for KGB-Mafia boy, Vladimir Putin.
SPY WARS (2007)
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3/mode/2up
GHOSTS OF THE SPY WARS (2014)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
WEDGE: THE SECRET WAR BETWEEN THE FBI AND CIA (1994)
.
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity
.
-- MWT ;)
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The point surely is to read various sources and think for yourself , thereby avoiding becoming a fan boi of either Mr Putin or the CIA ...
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PS Why would anyone like anything by Jefferson "Nosenko Was A True Defector" Morley?
Have you read my one-star Amazon review, under the username dumptrumputin, of his abominable book The Ghost?
I think Morley is well read in the JFK assassination. I don't think he'd fall under the category of conspiracy theorist. He seems to be logical.
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I think Morley is well read in the JFK assassination. I don't think he'd fall under the category of conspiracy theorist. He seems to be logical.
Margaret, Margaret, Margaret ...
Have you read my one-star Amazon review of The Ghost I posted under my username dumptrumputin?
You will remain naive regarding Morley and Company's incorrect "take" on the CIA and the KGB until you read the two works by Bagley I linked-to, above, as well as pertinent chapters from the Riebling book, Wedge, which I also linked.
Why remain ignorant?
-- MWT ;)
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I think Morley is well read in the JFK assassination. I don't think he'd fall under the category of conspiracy theorist. He seems to be logical.
As I read him, Morley's not a conspiracist. Unless he's changed in recent weeks.
He thinks that it's possible that Counter Intelligence under Angleton used Oswald (unwittingly) for some type of operation to discredit the FPCC. And that maybe George Joannides, the CIA case officer who handled relations with the DRE, may have been part of that. Or knew about Oswald. Or something. There's a lot of maybes in there.
But there's nothing, as I see it, that says he thinks they were involved in the assassination of JFK. He's said that they were, somehow, criminally negligent in not warning about the danger of Oswald. Which indicates to me that he believes Oswald was the assassin of JFK. But he later retracted that to say they may have been negligent.
As to Nosenko: Lots of people believe in the legitimacy of Nosenko and are lone assassin believers. Nosenko may have been a triple agent; he may have lied about the KGB relationship with Oswald. But that's not connecting the KGB to Oswald's acts.
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As to Nosenko: Lots of people believe in the legitimacy of Nosenko and are lone assassin believers. Nosenko may have been a triple agent; he may have lied about the KGB relationship with Oswald. But that's not connecting the KGB to Oswald's acts.
In the book Passport To Assassination, Nechiporenko says that Nosenko was a drunk who only rose to the heights he did in the KGB because his dad got him there. Then Nosenko left his wife and kids (the first woman he got pregnant he simply up and left without marrying her) in the USSR and defected to the USA where he drank some more at the expense of the american taxpayer while in CIA custody.
Nosenko was probably hard to figure out because he would make up anything and everything to anyone.
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In the book Passport To Assassination, Nechiporenko says that Nosenko was a drunk who only rose to the heights he did in the KGB because his dad got him there. Then Nosenko left his wife and kids (the first woman he got pregnant he simply up and left without marrying her) in the USSR and defected to the USA where he drank some more at the expense of the American taxpayer while in CIA custody.
Nosenko was probably hard to figure out because he would make up anything and everything to anyone.
In the book Passport To Assassination, Nechiporenko says that Nosenko was a drunk ...
Yeah, and probable mole George Kisevalter (look him up, but disregard the unfortunate fact that he got CIA's coveted "Trailblazers" Award) said Nosenko was "always drunk" during the five meetings he and my hero, Tennent H. Bagley had with Nosenko in Geneva in June of 1962.
George Kissevalter, the guy who "chattingly" gave Nosenko classified oral information during said meetings, the guy who lied when he said a couple of years later that Nosenko had told himself and Bagley in Geneva in 1962 that KGB agents had spotted John Abidian "setting up" Penkovsky's dead drop in Moscow in December of 1960 -- when in reality Penkovsky, himself, had set it up, and Abidian only went near the dead drop once, in December of 1961 -- , ah, yes ... George Kisevalter ... the guy who was best buds with probable mole Richard Kovich, ... George Kisevalter, the guy who, although fluent in both Russian and English, somehow managed to make 150 "errors" in his transcribing of the tape recordings of those Geneva 1962 meetings, the guy who swore up and down that Nosenko was a true defector and that (true defector) Anatoliy Golitsyn was a nut case, the guy who, due to his "stellar record" wasn't interviewed by CIA during the HONETOL mole hunt, the guy ...
What a piece of work was chess expert George Kisevalter, the guy of Russian ancestry who was married to a Slav foreigner, the guy who had been stationed in Germany, the guy whose name started with the letter "K" ...
The guy who handled Popov and Penkovsky ...
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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The point surely is to read various sources and think for yourself , thereby avoiding becoming a fan boi of either Mr Putin or the CIA ...
Michael,
Why don't you hold off on doing any more "thinking for yourself" regarding the "CIA versus the KGB" issue (especially from 1959 -- when Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate was founded -- to 1974, when probable mole William Colby fired CI chief James Angleton) until you've read the stuff I linked, above?
Are you afraid you won't be able to handle the agonizing cognitive dissonance you're sure to experience?
Do you think you already know everything you need to know?
LOL!
-- MWT ;)
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In the book Passport To Assassination, Nechiporenko says that Nosenko was a drunk who only rose to the heights he did in the KGB because his dad got him there. Then Nosenko left his wife and kids (the first woman he got pregnant he simply up and left without marrying her) in the USSR and defected to the USA where he drank some more at the expense of the american taxpayer while in CIA custody.
Nosenko was probably hard to figure out because he would make up anything and everything to anyone.
Oleg Kalugin - who was in charge of all KGB operations in the US and later defected to America - said the same thing. He said Nosenko's father was a high ranking official under Stalin and had helped promote him. And that he was a drunk and womanizer who was held in low regard but that he did have access to some information that was damaging.
In his book, "Spy Master", Kalugin wrote this: "Nosenko's flight spread panic throughout the KGB. He was branded one of the great traitors of all time, and dozens of KGB officers stationed abroad who had had dealing with Nosenko were recalled. Six officers in the New York station (including myself) were yanked back to Moscow."
Nosenko's claims, from what I've read, were entirely inconsistent and illogical. He once said the KGB never interviewed Oswald but then later said he personally (!?) interviewed Oswald; he said the KGB never monitored Oswald but then said the KGB in Minsk watched Oswald. Completely different accounts. But why would the KGB send someone to say they had no relationship with Oswald? Just say he was questioned, watched closely, viewed as worthless, and sent back. That's a far better cover story (if there was one) than to say what Nosenko said.
The FBI had two very high agents inside the CPUSA: Morris and Jack Childs. Both were completely trusted by Soviet officials who let Morris handle communications and money deliveries between Moscow and the CPUSA. Morris was in Moscow at the time of the assassination and had access to very high level Soviet discussions about the event. The Soviets had complete trust with Morris and consulted him about how they should react. Morris said (from the book "Operation Solo") the Soviets were stunned by the assassination and that they gathered all of the information they had on Oswald. He said he found that the Soviets had no role in the assassination and were worried about being blamed for it.
I think the "Soviets were behind the assassination" theory has no basis whatsoever. Not at this point.
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Oleg Kalugin - who was in charge of all KGB operations in the US and later defected to America - said the same thing. He said Nosenko's father was a high ranking official under Stalin and had helped promote him. And that he was a drunk and womanizer who was held in low regard but that he did have access to some information that was damaging.
In his book, "Spy Master", Kalugin wrote this: "Nosenko's flight spread panic throughout the KGB. He was branded one of the great traitors of all time, and dozens of KGB officers stationed abroad who had had dealing with Nosenko were recalled. Six officers in the New York station (including myself) were yanked back to Moscow."
Nosenko's claims, from what I've read, were entirely inconsistent and illogical. He once said the KGB never interviewed Oswald but then later said he personally (!?) interviewed Oswald; he said the KGB never monitored Oswald but then said the KGB in Minsk watched Oswald. Completely different accounts. But why would the KGB send someone to say they had no relationship with Oswald? Just say he was questioned, watched closely, viewed as worthless, and sent back. That's a far better cover story (if there was one) than to say what Nosenko said.
The FBI had two very high agents inside the CPUSA: Morris and Jack Childs. Both were completely trusted by Soviet officials who let Morris handle communications and money deliveries between Moscow and the CPUSA. Morris was in Moscow at the time of the assassination and had access to very high level Soviet discussions about the event. The Soviets had complete trust with Morris and consulted him about how they should react. Morris said (from the book "Operation Solo") the Soviets were stunned by the assassination and that they gathered all of the information they had on Oswald. He said he found that the Soviets had no role in the assassination and were worried about being blamed for it.
I think the "Soviets were behind the assassination" theory has no basis whatsoever. Not at this point.
Galbraith,
Any KGB defector (Kalugin and Gordievsky come to mind) who says Nosenko was a true defector is either a false defector, himself, or, more likely, was duped by the top-secret Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate (aka "THE FROM 1959-ON, KGB WITHIN THE KGB") into believing it was true.
-- MWT ;)
PS Are you ever going to read Tennent H. Bagley's 2007 book Spy Wars and his 2014 PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars and Mark Riebling's 1994 book Wedge and Edward J. Epstein's 1989 book Deception, or are you going to continue being duped, yourself?
All of those works are free-to-read the Internet.
PPS If it makes you feel any better, Bagley did not believe the KGB was behind the assassination, and believed instead that (self-avowed Marxist) Oswald did it all by himself.
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It's hard to narrow it down to five but informative books for me are:
1. Case Closed - Posner
2. Conspiracy of One - Jim Moore
3. The Death of a President: November 20-November 25 1963By William Manchester
4. Inside the Assassination Records Review Board: The U.S. Government's Final Attempt to Reconcile the Conflicting Medical Evidence in the Assassination (V. 5)
by Douglas P. Horne
5. Brothers - Talbot
Great honorable mention, I had a book on editorial cartoons that came out after the JFK assassination, every one, somber or at least, none was light in tone, just respectful. Good book. This was one of them and apparently, one of the most memorable.
(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wusf/files/styles/medium/public/201208/Cartoon_11_-_Lincoln.jpg)
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Steve's reply to my presentation of well documented evidence was disingenuous, but at least he replied. You haven't bothered, yet you say, "but they don't allow all the evidence to have its say. ....
In reply to Steve.... Bush thanks three people for meeting to discuss Bush's political future. One, Tom Devine, just happened, as the story goes, to have suddenly come out of long retired CIA officer status to meet with DeMohrenschildt just two weeks after the shooting attempt at Edwin Walker and several more contacts with George DeM. over the next few weeks, "reading in" Bush to segments of the WuBriny Op. Devine just happened to be one of 15 fraternity house residents of Priscilla's CIA handler, Garry Coit.
Another of the three at the 1975 meeting to decide Bush's political future was Bush's best friend. Gerry Bemiss. A kindergartner could glean what Steve claims he does not, out of the Bush "coincidences" in my post.
And of course, the intriguing item that apparently is not even suitable for discussion, anywhere, ever.... Priscilla testified she was unable to work for a time because her father's death was a concealed suicide. This was the sister of the last man, James A. Thomas, to see Priscilla's father alive and report hims missing to police..... The sister happened to be Eleanor Lansing Thomas, maid of honor and cousin, along with her brother, of Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles and his daughter, the bride.:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6215/6301243435_30b9d21c43_b.jpg)
Tom Devine's best man just happened to be William B. Macomber, Jr.... former CIA, former top aide to WC commissioner and Yale bonesman, Sen. John Sherman Cooper (R-KY), and top aide to John Foster Dulles. Macomber married another top aide of Dulles, Phyliss Bernau.
Apologies for the kindergarten reference, but it is in reply to Steve turning off his "learned" demeanor to denigrate me personally, reverting to his thoughtful, reasonable "side" after he pulls his, "Scully, I don't know what you're talking about, act."
You're gonna get in trouble again for postin' all this stuff, Tom. You didn't even know you were in trouble before. That may be a good thing+
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I think Morley is well read in the JFK assassination. I don't think he'd fall under the category of conspiracy theorist. He seems to be logical.
Morley, at one time was objective. No more. His own site ate him up and spit him out. JFKFacts was anything but facts.
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I think i can make my mind up all by myself , i don't need you to do it for me : )
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Anyhow heres a list :
1. Epstein : Legend ( first book on the subject i ever read )
2. Marina and Lee ( CIA and KGB friendly : )
3. Menninger ( SS accident theory )
4. Talbot ( on Dulles )
5. Do the math : Saffold ( Dal Tex shooter theory )
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Here's some good ones...
1, Accessories After the Fact by Sylvia Meagher (a smart lady looks at the facts)
2. Six Seconds in Dallas by Josiah Thompson (a brilliant philosophy professor re-examines the forensic evidence. Note while I disagree with many of my friend Tink's findings, there's no disputing he set a high bar.)
3. Post Mortem by Harold Weisberg (an almost Fellini-esque character study/rant revolving around a crotchety old man's efforts to make his government transparent and accountable.)
4. The Last Investigation by Gaeton Fonzi (a gripping detective story in which a journalist tries to get to the bottom of the murder of the century)
5. Someone Would Have Talked by Larry Hancock (the culmination of a hard-working man's efforts to separate the facts from the fiction, to see what remains).
There are, of course, a number of others which have something to offer.
I wish there was a good Oswald-did-it book which I could recommend. The problem, for me, is that almost all of them embrace the single-bullet theory as a fact, which, to me, is absolute rubbish. So I could no more recommend a book pushing this rubbish than I could a book pushing that Onassis did it so he could hook up with Jackie, or one in which a teenage hit man fired the fatal shot.
It is with high hopes then that I look to Robert Wagner's next book.
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Here's some good ones...
1, Accessories After the Fact by Sylvia Meagher (a smart lady looks at the facts)
2. Six Seconds in Dallas by Josiah Thompson (a brilliant philosophy professor re-examines the forensic evidence. Note while I disagree with many of my friend Tink's findings, there's no disputing he set a high bar.)
3. Post Mortem by Harold Weisberg (an almost Fellini-esque character study/rant revolving around a crotchety old man's efforts to make his government transparent and accountable.)
4. The Last Investigation by Gaeton Fonzi (a gripping detective story in which a journalist tries to get to the bottom of the murder of the century)
5. Someone Would Have Talked by Larry Hancock (the culmination of a hard-working man's efforts to separate the facts from the fiction, to see what remains).
There are, of course, a number of others which have something to offer.
I wish there was a good Oswald-did-it book which I could recommend. The problem, for me, is that almost all of them embrace the single-bullet theory as a fact, which, to me, is absolute rubbish. So I could no more recommend a book pushing this rubbish than I could a book pushing that Onassis did it so he could hook up with Jackie, or one in which a teenage hit man fired the fatal shot.
It is with high hopes then that I look to Robert Wagner's next book.
"Wubbish, wubbish, wubbish, wubbish, wubbish ..."
Regarding "The Impossible To Believe Single Bullet Theory," perhaps you should watch this (and the PBS Nova special from which it was excerpted).
-- MWT ;)
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I wish there was a good Oswald-did-it book which I could recommend. The problem, for me, is that almost all of them embrace the single-bullet theory as a fact, which, to me, is absolute rubbish.
The single bullet theory really is fact though. When you examine all of the available evidence, there really is no other plausible scenario. For you to say that the SBT is absolute rubbish makes me doubt that you are the real Pat Speer. Pat Speer is not a stupid guy and he has examined all of the available evidence. He doesn't embrace the SBT but he doesn't dismiss it outright either. Unless he's had some sort of head injury recently.
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I wish there was a good Oswald-did-it book which I could recommend.
If there isn't... [and I haven't run across one] --It's too late now.The problem, for me, is that almost all of them embrace the single-bullet theory as a fact, which, to me, is absolute rubbish.
That is what a guy that was shot that day said [sort of].
that almost all of them embrace
Which lone gunman book does not endorse the SBT?
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"Wubbish, wubbish, wubbish, wubbish, wubbish ..." Regarding "The Impossible To Believe Single Bullet Theory," perhaps you should watch this (and the PBS Nova special from which it was excerpted).
Well thanks Tommy-- that cartoon made even more impossible to believe the SBT. I mean just draw a perfectly straight line through everyone and Vwa-Lah! We know there was no wound directly in the back of the neck but let's just believe it anyway :-\
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Well thanks Tommy-- that cartoon made even more impossible to believe the SBT. I mean just draw a perfectly straight line through everyone and Vwa-Lah! We know there was no wound directly in the back of the neck but let's just believe it anyway :-\
Jer-wee, Jer-wee, Jer-wee
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Put your comic books down and watch the PBS Nova special: "Cold Case: JFK"
-- MWT ;)
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We're probably five years away from a super-precise model that duplicates the posture, clothing and skeleton. And then it'll be rejected by the CTs. So what's the use?
That’s because the exact locations of the wounds and the precise bullet paths will always be in question.
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If there isn't... [and I haven't run across one] --It's too late now.That is what a guy that was shot that day said [sort of]. Which lone gunman book does not endorse the SBT?
I didn't mean to derail this thread into a thread on the SBT. But, to answer your question, I have two single-assassin theorist books in my possession which devote a considerable amount of space to de-bunking the SBT. One is A Simple Act of Murder, by Mark Fuhrman, and the other is The Assassination of JFK by Robert Wagner. These writers found the SBT unbelievable, but concluded there was enough evidence to support Oswald's sole guilt without the SBT.
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I didn't mean to derail this thread into a thread on the SBT. But, to answer your question, I have two single-assassin theorist books in my possession which devote a considerable amount of space to de-bunking the SBT. One is A Simple Act of Murder, by Mark Fuhrman, and the other is The Assassination of JFK by Robert Wagner. These writers found the SBT unbelievable, but concluded there was enough evidence to support Oswald's sole guilt without the SBT.
Pat,
Did they say anything about the penetrating ability (e.g., three feet of pine wood) of that kind of bullet when fired from that kind of rifle?
Did they say anything about that bullet's tendency to yaw downwards when exiting a body?
-- MWT ;)
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The single bullet theory really is fact though. When you examine all of the available evidence, there really is no other plausible scenario. For you to say that the SBT is absolute rubbish makes me doubt that you are the real Pat Speer. Pat Speer is not a stupid guy and he has examined all of the available evidence. He doesn't embrace the SBT but he doesn't dismiss it outright either. Unless he's had some sort of head injury recently.
To be clear on my position... It is not impossible for a bullet to go through one individual and wound another. It is unlikely, however, that a high-velocity bullet piercing Kennedy's neck on the proposed trajectory would create such little damage. It is unlikely as well that a bullet creating the damage in Connally would end up so undamaged. I have chapter after chapter on this stuff on my website, and performed a presentation on this stuff at the 50th anniversary of the Warren Report Conference in Bethesda.
My problem, then, is not with those who think the SBT has gotta be true, and probably happened in one way or another. It is with those who have fibbed and fibbed and fibbed to support its probability. Specter, Lattimer, SPersonivan, Canning, Myers, Haag, etc... It's just awful.
The wounds don't align...move the wounds.
Connally's back wound is not suggestive of a tumbling bullet...use the wrong measurement.
The amount of bullet velocity lost during the tests performed for the WC don't add up...misrepresent them in the Warren Report, and then, if you're SPersonivan, change them for your book.
And that's not even to get into Canning, who was so desperate to claim the wounds aligned he claimed Kennedy was leaning forward when struck in the back and then sat up in his seat before getting hit in the back of the head--precisely the opposite of what is shown in the Z-film.
It's been a con job since the beginning.
As far as the NOVA program and the cartoon posted by Graves...I saw that on the day it was first broadcast on a morning news show and immediately posted it on the internet to warn people another con job was in the works. You see, that animation shows the bullet enter the back of the collar, when the bullet indisputably entered 5 inches below that location. As I recall, Haag then defended this deception by saying that the controversy about the SBT was all about what happened after the bullet exited the neck--which was as big a whopper as one can tell.
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To be clear on my position... It is not impossible for a bullet to go through one individual and wound another. It is unlikely, however, that a high-velocity bullet piercing Kennedy's neck on the proposed trajectory would create such little damage. It is unlikely as well that a bullet creating the damage in Connally would end up so undamaged. I have chapter after chapter on this stuff on my website, and performed a presentation on this stuff at the 50th anniversary of the Warren Report Conference in Bethesda.
My problem, then, is not with those who think the SBT has gotta be true, and probably happened in one way or another. It is with those who have fibbed and fibbed and fibbed to support its probability. Specter, Lattimer, SPersonivan, Canning, Myers, Haag, etc... It's just awful.
The wounds don't align...move the wounds.
Connally's back wound is not suggestive of a tumbling bullet...use the wrong measurement.
The amount of bullet velocity lost during the tests performed for the WC don't add up...misrepresent them in the Warren Report, and then, if you're SPersonivan, change them for your book.
And that's not even to get into Canning, who was so desperate to claim the wounds aligned he claimed Kennedy was leaning forward when struck in the back and then sat up in his seat before getting hit in the back of the head--precisely the opposite of what is shown in the Z-film.
It's been a con job since the beginning.
As far as the NOVA program and the cartoon posted by Graves...I saw that on the day it was first broadcast on a morning news show and immediately posted it on the internet to warn people another con job was in the works. You see, that animation shows the bullet enter the back of the collar, when the bullet indisputably entered 5 inches below that location. As I recall, Haag then defended this deception by saying that the controversy about the SBT was all about what happened after the bullet exited the neck--which was as big a whopper as one can tell.
How did Haag lie, Pat?
-- MWT ;)
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How did Haag lie, Pat?
-- MWT ;)
Obviously, it is Pat Speer who is lying, because, of course, he is a dupe of the Russian secret services, and has been a paid agent since the Soviet era, when he was also part of a "doubling project", codenamed " 2 Speers are better than 1". Mark Lane, of course, has also been involved since the late '50s, briefing the two Pat's. We won't even get into CIA photo fakery, Warren Report errors and omissions, etc. which was, yes, performed by Russian "moles", rather (deliberately) poorly, to implicate U.S. government agencies- falsely, of course.
It will all be in my book - definitely top 5 material - which clears up everything, including the SBT chapter, in which guest contributor Gerald Posner will reveal his exclusive interviews with CE399 and the 6th floor window, thereby putting to rest all conspiracy theories - including those that, sadly, exist regarding his alleged plagiarism and, uh, historical inventions.
In stores this fall! Save your pennies!
:)
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Obviously, it is Pat Speer who is lying, because, of course, he is a dupe of the Russian secret services, and has been a paid agent since the Soviet era, when he was also part of a "doubling project", codenamed " 2 Speers are better than 1". Mark Lane, of course, has also been involved since the late '50s, briefing the two Pat's. We won't even get into CIA photo fakery, Warren Report errors and omissions, etc. which was, yes, performed by Russian "moles", rather (deliberately) poorly, to implicate U.S. government agencies- falsely, of course.
It will all be in my book - definitely top 5 material - which clears up everything, including the SBT chapter, in which guest contributor Gerald Posner will reveal his exclusive interviews with CE399 and the 6th floor window, thereby putting to rest all conspiracy theories - including those that, sadly, exist regarding his alleged plagiarism and, uh, historical inventions.
In stores this fall! Save your pennies!
:)
Well put, Bratan!
(By the way, how much does Putin pay you?)
-- MWT ;)
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Well put, Bratan!
(By the way, how much does Putin pay you?)
-- MWT ;)
Is the satire lost on the above individual...or is he doubling back?
Putin pays me millions. : )
Two Pat Speers...how could I not have seen that? And both Soviet moles. Or ,.triple agents? Can twins be only double agents?
Inquiring minds must know!!
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Is the satire lost on the above individual...or is he doubling back?
Putin pays me millions. : )
Two Pat Speers...how could I not have seen that? And both Soviet moles. Or ,.triple agents? Can twins be only double agents?
Inquiring minds must know!!
He's getting his money's worth, that's for sure!
Where did you learn to speak English so well?
-- MWT ;)
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To be clear on my position... It is not impossible for a bullet to go through one individual and wound another. It is unlikely, however, that a high-velocity bullet piercing Kennedy's neck on the proposed trajectory would create such little damage. It is unlikely as well that a bullet creating the damage in Connally would end up so undamaged. I have chapter after chapter on this stuff on my website, and performed a presentation on this stuff at the 50th anniversary of the Warren Report Conference in Bethesda.
My problem, then, is not with those who think the SBT has gotta be true, and probably happened in one way or another. It is with those who have fibbed and fibbed and fibbed to support its probability. Specter, Lattimer, SPersonivan, Canning, Myers, Haag, etc... It's just awful.
The wounds don't align...move the wounds.
Connally's back wound is not suggestive of a tumbling bullet...use the wrong measurement.
The amount of bullet velocity lost during the tests performed for the WC don't add up...misrepresent them in the Warren Report, and then, if you're SPersonivan, change them for your book.
And that's not even to get into Canning, who was so desperate to claim the wounds aligned he claimed Kennedy was leaning forward when struck in the back and then sat up in his seat before getting hit in the back of the head--precisely the opposite of what is shown in the Z-film.
It's been a con job since the beginning.
As far as the NOVA program and the cartoon posted by Graves...I saw that on the day it was first broadcast on a morning news show and immediately posted it on the internet to warn people another con job was in the works. You see, that animation shows the bullet enter the back of the collar, when the bullet indisputably entered 5 inches below that location. As I recall, Haag then defended this deception by saying that the controversy about the SBT was all about what happened after the bullet exited the neck--which was as big a whopper as one can tell.
Pat , you should stick to the things that you know. The SBT isn't one of them.
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Pat , you should stick to the things that you know. The SBT isn't one of them.
Believe me. I wish that were true.
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First books I read were Crossfire and Rush to Judgement. Loved them to begin with. Turns out they're both appalling. Marrs was genuinely crazy and Mark Lane has blood on his hands in Jonestown.
Reclaiming History is a masterpiece.
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First books I read were Crossfire and Rush to Judgement. Loved them to begin with. Turns out they're both appalling. Marrs was genuinely crazy and Mark Lane has blood on his hands in Jonestown.
Thanks for the substantive reviews.
Reclaiming History is a masterpiece.
A masterpiece of self-indulgence.
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First books I read were Crossfire and Rush to Judgement. Loved them to begin with. Turns out they're both appalling. Marrs was genuinely crazy and Mark Lane has blood on his hands in Jonestown.
Reclaiming History is a masterpiece.
Vince crushed it
Lane and Garrison are white trash
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Vince crushed it
Lane and Garrison are white trash
Having met both Lane and Bugliosi I can say that they were actually quite similar. Both were lawyers to the bone.
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Having met both Lane and Bugliosi I can say that they were actually quite similar. Both were lawyers to the bone.
Pat,
What's wrong with that?
-- MWT ;)
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Having met both Lane and Bugliosi I can say that they were actually quite similar. Both were lawyers to the bone.
A pair of killer sharks right there. My condolences.
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A pair of killer sharks right there. My condolences.
Yes, it's a miracle he survived the bite at T-3.
-- MWT ;)
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Having met both Lane and Bugliosi I can say that they were actually quite similar. Both were lawyers to the bone.
Lane was a wild conspiracy theorist. Dangerous. Blood on his hands in Jonestown and then had the temerity to write a book saying the shooters were US forces. Absolutely disgraceful.
A masterpiece of self-indulgence.
The most in depth piece we have about the assassination. Incredible book. Think it took me about 3 years to read it on and off.
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Manchester Affair is not about the assassination per se, it's about all the roadblocks put in the path of William Manchester (including trying to keep him from being paid) in his writing Death of a President.
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11/22/63 by Stephen King.
Oh! Sorry.
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11/22/63 by Stephen King.
Oh! Sorry.
That was an interesting fictional account of the assassination.
Not unlike the Warren Commission Report.
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A good thread, seeing we all might find ourselves 'self isolating' for some considerable time. I've been listening to a lot of audio books at work.
In no particular order, but my fave audio books so far -
The Last Investigation - Gaeton Fonzi. Really informative stuff. I looked forward to listening to each chapter.
On The Trail of the JFK Assassins - Dick Russell. If you are interested in the CIA mind control theory re Oswald the 'patsy' - this is #1.
The Devil's Chessboard - David Talbot. Epic account of the opposition JFK faced, as a new POTUS, from the then era 'deep state'.
The Girl On The Stairs - Barry Ernest. Reading the physical book, nearly finished. Very good read so far. Backs up a lot of my own understanding of the Warren Commission's lack of real truth seeking. They couldn't afford to find a conspiracy -- hence cutting their cloth accordingly.
Brothers - David Talbot. Helps explain why the Kennedy's, but Bobby in particular, remained mostly silent re the assassination of JFK. Never wait for tomorrow!
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A good thread, seeing we all might find ourselves 'self isolating' for some considerable time. I've been listening to a lot of audio books at work.
In no particular order, but my fave audio books so far -
The Last Investigation - Gaeton Fonzi. Really informative stuff. I looked forward to listening to each chapter.
On The Trail of the JFK Assassins - Dick Russell. If you are interested in the CIA mind control theory re Oswald the 'patsy' - this is #1.
The Devil's Chessboard - David Talbot. Epic account of the opposition JFK faced, as a new POTUS, from the then era 'deep state'.
The Girl On The Stairs - Barry Ernest. Reading the physical book, nearly finished. Very good read so far. Backs up a lot of my own understanding of the Warren Commission's lack of real truth seeking. They couldn't afford to find a conspiracy -- hence cutting their cloth accordingly.
Brothers - David Talbot. Helps explain why the Kennedy's, but Bobby in particular, remained mostly silent re the assassination of JFK. Never wait for tomorrow!
Robert, RFK's silence certainly complicated POVs of researchers after his death. My time as a volunteer at JFKfacts opened my eyes to differences of opinion I had been unaware existed. This author, for example, an individual who, despite our many differences of opinion, I was able to develop a cordial, private dialogue with, supports an opinion that RFK was fond of Allen Dulles.:
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-2/#comment-826066
Thank you for pointing out the usefulness of humidifiers in these trying times. I do hope government, medical administrators, and private businesses have already been able to prevent profiteers from hobbling the availability of existing ventilators, by cornering the market for items like this, one time use, throw away items vital for multiple patient use.
https://coastbiomed.com/product/allied-autovent-epv-patient-circuit/
Found on this page.:
https://coastbiomed.com/product/allied-epv-200/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuPr7zJOd6AIVAYeGCh0ZYwX2EAYYASABEgIIPPD_BwE
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Lane was a wild conspiracy theorist. Dangerous. Blood on his hands in Jonestown and then had the temerity to write a book saying the shooters were US forces. Absolutely disgraceful.
The most in depth piece we have about the assassination. Incredible book. Think it took me about 3 years to read it on and off.
I asked Lane about Jim Jones and he said something akin to "It's just crazy that people think I could have stopped what happened. I mean, if I had any idea what he was gonna do, would I have gone down there and almost got killed--to the point where I was literally running through the jungle in fear for my life?"
Everything he said indicated he thought Jones was responsible for what happened. I think I read somewhere that he once supported the theory Jones had been experimented upon by the army with mind-altering chemicals, but I wouldn't swear to it. In any event, he said nothing to me about US forces chasing him through the jungle, and suggested instead that it was Jones' followers doing the chasing. (If you have an exact quote as to his trying to blame the shootings on the US military, I would appreciate it.)
As for Bugliosi, I suspect he is a bit of a fake. Sections of his book regarding the timing of the shots stand in direct contradiction with one another. It seems clear, then, that he either changed his mind but forgot to change his book or that he allowed Dale Myers to write the first part of his book. (This charge was made by David Lifton after having a talk with a number of insiders at Bugliosi's publisher.) In any event, I studied Bugliosi's (and Myer's?) use of footnotes in his manifesto, and found he was incredibly deceptive if not blatantly dishonest. Here's a link
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9b%3Areclaiminghistoryfromreclaimin2
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Robert, RFK's silence certainly complicated POVs of researchers after his death. My time as a volunteer at JFKfacts opened my eyes to differences of opinion I had been unaware existed. This author, for example, an individual who, despite our many differences of opinion, I was able to develop a cordial, private dialogue with, supports an opinion that RFK was fond of Allen Dulles.:
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-2/#comment-826066
Thank you for pointing out the usefulness of humidifiers in these trying times. I do hope government, medical administrators, and private businesses have already been able to prevent profiteers from hobbling the availability of existing ventilators, by cornering the market for items like this, one time use, throw away items vital for multiple patient use.
https://coastbiomed.com/product/allied-autovent-epv-patient-circuit/
Found on this page.:
https://coastbiomed.com/product/allied-epv-200/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuPr7zJOd6AIVAYeGCh0ZYwX2EAYYASABEgIIPPD_BwE
Tom ... this convo between Johnson, Dulles, and RFK, seems to back up opinion RFK liked Alan Dulles, even trusted the guy. lol
https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/secret-white-house-tapes/conversation-allen-dulles-and-robert-kennedy-june-23-1964 (https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/secret-white-house-tapes/conversation-allen-dulles-and-robert-kennedy-june-23-1964)
Interesting? I've decided to listen again to 'Brothers' ... (from memory) David Talbot stated, with added disbelief, LBJ quoting RFK's demand for Dulles to be actively involved in the Warren Commission.
Dulles laughs hard when RFK says he trusts Dulles ... and then Dulles says ''I've been a little mad at you, over this bay of pigs book''. Any clue which book he means?
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Tom ... this convo between Johnson, Dulles, and RFK, seems to back up opinion RFK liked Alan Dulles, even trusted the guy. lol
https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/secret-white-house-tapes/conversation-allen-dulles-and-robert-kennedy-june-23-1964 (https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/secret-white-house-tapes/conversation-allen-dulles-and-robert-kennedy-june-23-1964)
Interesting? I've decided to listen again to 'Brothers' ... (from memory) David Talbot stated, with added disbelief, LBJ quoting RFK's demand for Dulles to be actively involved in the Warren Commission.
Dulles laughs hard when RFK says he trusts Dulles ... and then Dulles says ''I've been a little mad at you, over this bay of pigs book''. Any clue which book he means?
The Amazon books access was not available in early 2016, so I bought a used copy of Morris's book, "New York Days" Possibly Dulles blackmailed Bobby over assassination plots against Castro?
1 result for "was a god."
Page 34 Kennedy," he said, ". he thought he was a god." Even now these wo…
Certainly not this one, but it recounts an interview with the then future editor of Harper's Magazine a couple of years later, and it is assumed a reference to JFK.:
https://www.amazon.com/New-York-Days-Willie-Morris/dp/0316583987 (Click: Look inside: on left)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DullesWillieMorrisLittleKennedy.jpg)
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Tom ... this convo between Johnson, Dulles, and RFK, seems to back up opinion RFK liked Alan Dulles, even trusted the guy. lol
https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/secret-white-house-tapes/conversation-allen-dulles-and-robert-kennedy-june-23-1964 (https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/secret-white-house-tapes/conversation-allen-dulles-and-robert-kennedy-june-23-1964)
Interesting? I've decided to listen again to 'Brothers' ... (from memory) David Talbot stated, with added disbelief, LBJ quoting RFK's demand for Dulles to be actively involved in the Warren Commission.
Dulles laughs hard when RFK says he trusts Dulles ... and then Dulles says ''I've been a little mad at you, over this bay of pigs book''. Any clue which book he means?
Tom ... this convo between Johnson, Dulles, and RFK, seems to back up opinion RFK liked Alan Dulles, even trusted the guy. lol
The Kennedy brothers had also preserved a long-lasting association with Allen Dulles, then CIA Director. Letters in both the Kennedy and Dulles collections reflect that John and Robert Kennedy maintained correspondence with both Dulles brothers from at least 1955. Traveling in the same social sphere, Allen Dulles and John Kennedy were “comfortable with one another and there was a lot of mutual respect,” Richard Bissell said in an interview. In fact, Kennedy was known to regard Dulles as a legendary figure. Historian Herbert Parmet wrote, “Dulles often went to the Charles Wrightsman estate near Joe Kennedy’s Palm Beach House. As far back as Jack’s early days, they socialized down in Florida, much of the time swimming and playing golf.”152 Dulles himself said, “I knew Joe quite well from the days when he was head of the Securities and Exchange Commission.”
Russo, Gus. Live by the Sword: The Secret War Against Castro and the Death of JFK . Bancroft Press. Kindle Edition.
Dulles first met Jack Kennedy at the Kennedy Florida compound in 1955. They became fast friends. “Our contact was fairly continuous,” Dulles later said. “When [JFK] was in Palm Beach, we always got together.”159 Jack came to revere both Dulles’ intellect and accomplishments.
Russo, Gus. Live by the Sword: The Secret War Against Castro and the Death of JFK . Bancroft Press. Kindle Edition.
Robert Kennedy, too, was clearly impressed with Dulles. Regarding his performance at the time of the Bay of Pigs, Robert Kennedy later recalled, “Allen Dulles handled himself awfully well, with a great deal of dignity, and never attempted to shift the blame. The President was very fond of him, as I was.”160 He elaborated to historian Arthur Schlesinger, “He [JFK] liked him [Dulles]—thought he was a real gentleman, handled himself well. There were obviously so many mistakes made at the time of the Bay of Pigs that it wasn’t appropriate that he should stay on. And he always took the blame. He was a real gentleman. JFK thought very highly of him.”
160 - RFK interview by John B. Martin, 1 March 1964, RFK Oral History at the Kennedy Library
Russo, Gus. Live by the Sword: The Secret War Against Castro and the Death of JFK . Bancroft Press. Kindle Edition.
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Tom ... this convo between Johnson, Dulles, and RFK, seems to back up opinion RFK liked Alan Dulles, even trusted the guy. lol
The Kennedy brothers had also preserved a long-lasting association with Allen Dulles, then CIA Director. Letters in both the Kennedy and Dulles collections reflect that John and Robert Kennedy maintained correspondence with both Dulles brothers from at least 1955. Traveling in the same social sphere, Allen Dulles and John Kennedy were “comfortable with one another and there was a lot of mutual respect,” Richard Bissell said in an interview. In fact, Kennedy was known to regard Dulles as a legendary figure. Historian Herbert Parmet wrote, “Dulles often went to the Charles Wrightsman estate near Joe Kennedy’s Palm Beach House. As far back as Jack’s early days, they socialized down in Florida, much of the time swimming and playing golf.”152 Dulles himself said, “I knew Joe quite well from the days when he was head of the Securities and Exchange Commission.”
Russo, Gus. Live by the Sword: The Secret War Against Castro and the Death of JFK . Bancroft Press. Kindle Edition.
Dulles first met Jack Kennedy at the Kennedy Florida compound in 1955. They became fast friends. “Our contact was fairly continuous,” Dulles later said. “When [JFK] was in Palm Beach, we always got together.”159 Jack came to revere both Dulles’ intellect and accomplishments.
Russo, Gus. Live by the Sword: The Secret War Against Castro and the Death of JFK . Bancroft Press. Kindle Edition.
Robert Kennedy, too, was clearly impressed with Dulles. Regarding his performance at the time of the Bay of Pigs, Robert Kennedy later recalled, “Allen Dulles handled himself awfully well, with a great deal of dignity, and never attempted to shift the blame. The President was very fond of him, as I was.”160 He elaborated to historian Arthur Schlesinger, “He [JFK] liked him [Dulles]—thought he was a real gentleman, handled himself well. There were obviously so many mistakes made at the time of the Bay of Pigs that it wasn’t appropriate that he should stay on. And he always took the blame. He was a real gentleman. JFK thought very highly of him.”
160 - RFK interview by John B. Martin, 1 March 1964, RFK Oral History at the Kennedy Library
Russo, Gus. Live by the Sword: The Secret War Against Castro and the Death of JFK . Bancroft Press. Kindle Edition.
Plus JFK took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs mess. He knew beforehand that it had a very low probability of succeeding. His generals told him so. Plus he was a war vet himself. He must have known it was a stupid idea to send 1200 men to fight an army of 200,000 Castro solders.
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Interesting interview with RFK jnr.
Touches on the subject of his grandfather, Joseph -- denies he was ever a bootlegger, it was a smear created in 1964 ... Says the CIA has waged a battle on the Kennedy's for the last 70 years. Believes the CIA & anti-Castro Cubans carried out the assassination on JFK.
If you're not into the environmental stuff then skip to 1:54:07 --- is where he talks about the Kennedy clan.
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"Legend" by Edward J. Epstein has got to be right up there for me.
Although he doesn't say (maybe because James Angleton was still alive?), Epstein's sources appear to have been my pro-Golitsyn, anti-Nosenko heroes Angleton, Tennent H. Bagley, Newton "Scotty" Miler, William Hood, and William Sullivan.
Another book that appears to have some "pearls" in it is "The Man Who Knew Too Much" by Richard Russell.
-- MWT :)
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So hard to get this down to five but here are mine:
Conspiracy - Anthony Summers
Oswald And The CIA - Newman
Our Man In Mexico City - Jeff Morley
Marina And Lee - By Mrs Oswald
The Death of A President - William Manchester
What are yours and why?
From what I can tell, Vincent Bugliosi's 1000-pager is very thorough and quite accurate, and Dale Myers' "With Malice" on the Tippit murder is quite good, too.
Do big-name video productions count?
If so, then I can't over-recommend National Geographic's "The Lost Bullet," and PBS Nova's "Cold Case: JFK".
-- MWT ;)
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From what I can tell, Vincent Bugliosi's 1000-pager ....
...would come in handy if you run out of toilet paper.
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...would come in handy if you run out of toilet paper.
Not adequate for that task either...
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Not adequate for that task either...
Pretty much not worth spombleprofglidnoctobuns, huh.. looks like you won't be taking a knee at Bugliosi's gravesite any time soon.
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1) The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, by Larry SPersonivan
2) With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit, by Dale Myers
3) Case Closed, by Gerald Posner
4) The Death of a President: November 20-November 25, 1963, by William Manchester
5) Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F Kennedy,by Vincent Bugliosi **
**I haven't actually read Bugliosi's book from beginning to end because it's too damn long.
Great list. Yes, Bugliosi's book is the ultimate authority on the assassination, these other books are worth reading too.
I think Gerald Posner is also an authority on the Nazis, I saw him on some documentary the other day, "Nazis, the ultimate evil", pretty good.
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... [Bugliosi's book] would come in handy if you run out of toilet paper.
I think Mark Twain said something about your ilk in this context.
-- MWT ;)
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The invasion plan was largely Kennedy's. He was intrigued by limited military strikes or operations.
The invasion plan was largely Kennedy's. The man overseeing plans for the Bay of Pigs Invasion was Richard M. Bissell Jr., the CIA's Deputy Director for Plans (DDP). He assembled a number of other agents to aid him in the plot, many of whom had worked on the 1954 Guatemalan coup six years before; these included David Philips, Gerry Droller and E. Howard Hunt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
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I think Mark Twain said something about your ilk in this context.
Do tell :-\
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Do tell :-\
What Mark Twain said about your ilk?
That no matter how many facts you confront them with (as Bugliosi does par excellence in Reclaiming History), brainwashed true-believers are gonna go right on a-believin' the garbage they believe in ... or words to that effect.
-- MWT ;)
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What Mark Twain said .....
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
Mark Twain :-\
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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
Mark Twain :-\
"Truth [e.g., the first shot occured about one second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, CE399 went clear through both JFK and JBC, and JFK's violent head and upper torso movement was caused by a combination of a catastrophic neuromuscular reaction while sitting and wearing a rigid back corset, plus a Newton's Third Law "jet effect" when the right side of his brain was violently expelled through a palm-sized exit hole in the top-right area of his scull] is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; truth isn't."
-- Mark Twain
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"Truth [e.g., the first shot occured about one second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, CE399 went clear through both JFK and JBC, and JFK's violent head and upper torso movement was caused by a combination of a catastrophic neuromuscular reaction while sitting and wearing a rigid back corset, plus a Newton's Third Law "jet effect" when the right side of his brain was violently expelled through a palm-sized exit hole in the top-right area of his scull] is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; truth isn't."
-- Mark Twain
Nah....Mark Twain didn't believe in the lone gunman stuff either.
Back to the subject------------
Available now to read online is a rare [impossible to find] one--- "Cover-Up" Gary Shaw w/ Larry Harris
https://archive.org/details/CoverUp_201510/mode/2up
I had bought a copy from the authors back then-- but sold it in hard times [sniffle] :'(
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"Truth [e.g., the first shot occured about one second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, CE399 went clear through both JFK and JBC, and JFK's violent head and upper torso movement was caused by a combination of a catastrophic neuromuscular reaction while sitting and wearing a rigid back corset, plus a Newton's Third Law "jet effect" when the right side of his brain was violently expelled through a palm-sized exit hole in the top-right area of his scull] is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; truth isn't."
-- Mark Twain
Consider me a temporary reincarnation of Samuel Clemens, sounding, above, two seeming implausibilities of the big, muddy, turgid river known as JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theories, a deluge of neverending ca-ca if there ever was one.
.
-- MWT ;)
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Consider me a temporary reincarnation of Samuel Clemens ...
Do Mark Twain the honor? :D Right.
Watch --When The Levee Breaks video by Zepparella ...a lot more entertaining Thumb1:
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Do Mark Twain the honor? :D Right.
Watch --When The Levee Breaks video by Zepparella ...a lot more entertaining Thumb1:
I was watching and listening to their "cover" quite a bit a couple of years ago.
Helped me to relax while dealing with tinfoil hat-wearing CTers who are, against all logic, living on the banks of another flood-prone river in Egypt.
Ah yes, Egypt. Where, six months after the assassination Khrushchev buttonholed Drew Pearson to tell him that Far-Right Industrialists in America had done JFK, or some-such thing.
https://www.rferl.org/a/soviets-claimed-us-right-wing-lyndon-johnson-behind-kennedy-assassination-files-show/28820677.html
And, to top it off -- KGB triple agent Boris Orehkov (FBI's SHAMROCK, backed, of course by KGB triple-agent Aleksei Kulak -- Hoover's beloved and protected FEDORA) convinced gullible J. Edgar Hoover in 1967 that the KGB had undertaken a months-long investigation of the assassination right after it happened! LOL!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/01/10/jfk-files-kgb-had-trusted-relationship-longtime-warren-commission-critic-mark-lane/1018691001/
-- MWT ;)