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- #1 by Steve Barber on Today at 03:43:09 PM
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Quote from: James Hackerott on April 25, 2024, 07:03:47 PMJerry,Can you measure the distance from the retaining wall to the stockade fence? I have a laser measurement we can compare. Hi James, I replied to your Message to me here on the Forum in the "Messages". I didn't know that you had sent me a private message on the 22nd until yesterday. My sincere apologies, sir.
- #2 by Jerry Organ on Today at 05:32:48 AM
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The 2011 "Phase II Map". ( Link )With aerial overlay (Full-size of download: 4690x2820 pixels).
- #3 by Jerry Organ on Today at 04:17:00 AM
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Quote from: James Hackerott on April 25, 2024, 07:03:47 PMJerry,Can you measure the distance from the retaining wall to the stockade fence? I have a laser measurement we can compare.If you mean measure on the Topo Map, it didn't come with a scale. I have seen it mentioned that it was 1 to 40 feet. I don't know if it's one foot-to-forty-feet?The full un-cropped map scan is here: Link "Topo Map Rev.1981 (As Provided) 6112x3758 PNG"The width of Elm Street is said to 40 feet ("The width of each concrete roadway through the Plaza is 40 feet." --WCR), which may be a rounded figure. On the Topo Map scan, the width of Elm Street is about 4 1/8". If the scale was 1 foot to 40 feet, then Elm Street should be a foot wide. The original map would be some 13 feet wide.I can use the Elm Street width as a 40' scale. What part of the retaining wall to what part of the fence?
- #4 by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:09:41 AM
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Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on April 25, 2024, 06:05:18 PMThis claim that Oswald was told by Shelley that it was okay to leave and that's why he did so is simply, for me, not supportable. Apparently the source for this is this FBI report (neither Fritz nor Hosty mention this Oswald/Shelley conversation):Full source/link: https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/pdf/WR_A11_ReportsDPD.pdf pg. 619So this account says that in Oswald's opinion that based on Shelley's remarks no more work would be done. Nothing about Shelley actually saying this, nothing about Shelley saying it was okay to leave. Furthermore, if Oswald is out there with Shelley then he, Oswald, can simply ask if it's okay to leave. But he didn't. He just took off. And no other worker took off at that time. Added: Oswald can say here that he's not lying. He thought, based on Shelley's remarks, that because no more work would be done he could leave. The fact that Shelley was in the next room wouldn't prevent him from making this claim. Again, he apparently said it was just his opinion. Unless there's another source that I'm missing this idea that he left based on Shelley's explicit permission is not supportable.This claim that Oswald was told by Shelley that it was okay to leave and that's why he did so is simply, for me, not supportable.Unless there's another source that I'm missing this idea that he left based on Shelley's explicit permission is not supportable.Who is making this claim that Shelley told Oswald it was okay to leave? Who is saying Shelley gave Oswald "explicit permission"?I'm not aware of anyone making this claim so I'm not sure why you feel the need to make a big deal out of it.The point being made is that Oswald told his interrogators that, at some point after his encounter with Baker in the second floor lunchroom, he got together with Bill Shelley and had some kind of conversation with him. Oswald tells his interrogators he decides to go home as a result of this conversation.Do you agree Oswald told his interrogators that he had some kind of interaction with Bill Shelley before he left the TSBD building?The question isn't whether this interaction really happened or not. The question is whether or not Oswald told his interrogators he had this interaction with Bill Shelley (and there is plenty of evidence indicating that he did tell them this).Which is really weird. It is really weird that Oswald would specifically name Shelley when he didn't have to. Oswald had no need to bring Shelley into his explanation because, if he was lying, he knew that it could be easily checked out. If Oswald is trying to paint himself as this innocent guy who had nothing to do with the assassination why would he bring an element into his story that could instantly show he was lying. Why didn't he just say that he went home without talking to anybody?To try an explain it by saying Oswald was a liar makes no sense whatsoever. It doesn't address the issue in any way.Oswald was a lot of things but he wasn't stupid.Although an anti-social mumbling loner to most of his work colleagues, on his TV appearance in New Orleans and, in particular, his radio interviews [which can be found here - https://oswald-on-the-radio.blogspot.com/ ], Oswald comes across as an intelligent and articulate man. I imagine that teaching yourself Russian is no mean feat and requires a certain degree of brain power. So, we can drop the idea that he was so stupid he wouldn't realise that his alibi for leaving the TSBD building would be checked.We can also drop the idea Oswald was panicking and just blurted out the first thing that came to his mind. In his WC testimony, Fritz makes the point that, to a large extent, Oswald was controlling how the interrogation progressed. It makes such an impression on Fritz that he asks Oswald whether he has had any training in interrogation techniques:Mr. Fritz: You know I didn't have trouble with him. If we would just talk to him quietly like we are talking right now, we talked all right until I asked him a question that meant something, every time I asked him a question that meant something, that would produce evidence he immediately told me he wouldn't tell me about it and he seemed to anticipate what I was going to ask. In fact, he got so good at it one time, I asked him if he had had any training, if he hadn't been questioned before.Mr. Dulles: Questioned before?Mr. Fritz: Questioned before, and he said that he had, he said yes, the FBI questioned him when he came back from Russia for a long time and they tried different methods. He said they tried the buddy boy method and thorough method, and let me see some other method he told me and he said, "I understand that."So, Oswald is an intelligent man who is comfortable in an interrogation situation. He had absolutely no intention of appearing guilty in any way. So why introduce this element that could so easily have been checked by simply asking Shelley whether it happened or not. Why would he lie about this if it could easily be discovered that he was lying, which would make him look guilty. Something he was trying to avoid.
- #5 by Andrew Mason on April 25, 2024, 09:13:23 PM
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Quote from: Jarrett Smith on April 25, 2024, 06:38:45 PMFour Shots. The last two were bang-bang LHO could not have fired two shots that fast.It depends on the length of your hyphen.
- #6 by Andrew Mason on April 25, 2024, 09:12:33 PM
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Quote from: Michael Davidson on April 20, 2024, 05:36:22 PMHow many people would recognise a muffled or suppressed shot ( silencer ) ?I would expect most, if it was a rifle shot. My understanding is that, even today, noise suppression for rifles does not make them close to being silent.
- #7 by Fergus O'brien on April 25, 2024, 08:03:53 PM
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i am certain these will have been debated before but i think it would be a good idea to do so again for the new readers / members who have joined the forum or who are just starting out on their JFK assassination journey . another poster posted the following from the book reclaiming history . i hope people will chime in and show how accurate or inaccurate these claims are . are the accurate , true and fact ? or inaccurate , untrue , merely opinion masquerading as fact etc etc ? . here are Vincent Bugliosi so called 53 pieces of evidence .1 . Whenever Oswald had Wesley Frazier drive him out to visit his wife and daughters at thePaine residence in Irving, he'd go on a Friday evening and return to Dallas on Monday morning. Theassassination was on Friday, November 22, 1963. For the very first time, Oswald went to Irving withFrazier on Thursday evening, November 21, obviously to pickup his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle forthe following day.2. Oswald told Wesley Frazier he was going to Irving to pick up some curtain rods for hisapartment in Dallas. But Oswald's landlady testified that the windows in Oswald's room on NorthBeckley already had curtain rods and that Oswald never discussed getting curtain rods with her. 16Indeed, Allen Grant, a photographer for Life magazine, took a photo of Oswald's room on theafternoon of the assassination, and it clearly shows the curtain rods that were already in his room.Additionally, Ruth Paine had two flat, lightweight curtain rods in her garage, and they were stillthere after Oswald's arrest. Oswald never asked Ruth Paine about curtain rods at any time. WhenMarina was asked in her Warren Commission testimony, "On the evening of the 21st, was anythingsaid about curtain rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?" she answered, "No, Ididn't have any." Question: "He didn't say anything like that?" "No." And no curtain rods werefound in the Book Depository Building after the assassination. If Oswald, as he claimed, brought curtain rods to work, whatever happened to them? We knowfrom witnesses (on the bus, the cabdriver, and Earlene Roberts) that he wasn't carrying any longpackage after he left the Book Depository Building. And, as indicated, no curtain rods were found inthe building after the assassination. As with the supposed killer behind the picket fence on the grassyknoll whom no one saw run away, and the bullet that exited Kennedy's throat without going on to hitConnally or anything else in the presidential limousine, did the curtain rods simply vanish into thinair? One would think that things like this would at least give the Oswald defenders and conspiracytheorists pause, but instead, their eyes blazing with certainty, they tell you that you just don'tunderstand.In addition to the evidence showing that Oswald's curtain rod story was a fabrication, the story,all by itself, is inherently implausible. If Oswald did want to pick up curtain rods at Ruth Paine' shome for his apartment, why would that require him to go there on a Thursday evening? Could he onlypick them up if he went there on a Thursday evening, not a Friday evening?3. When Oswald told Wesley Frazier why he was coming to Irving on a Thursday night to pickup curtain rods Frazier said to Oswald, "Oh, very well," then added, "Well, will you be goinghome with me tomorrow also?" and Oswald replied, "No." 4. Oswald and his wife, Marina, shared an abiding interest in President Kennedy and his familyand spoke of them often. Yet on Thursday evening, the night before the assassination, when Marinabrought up in conversation with Oswald the president's scheduled visit to Dallas the next day, shesaid, "He just ignored a little bit, you know, to talk about [it] . . .maybe changed subject about talkingabout. . .new born baby or something like that. . .It was quite unusual that he did not want to talk aboutPresident Kennedy being in Dallas that particular evening. That was quite peculiar."5. Friday morning, before leaving Ruth Paine 's house in Irving, Oswald left behind his weddingring and $170, believed to be virtually all of his money, for Marina, demonstrating that he realized hemight never see her again that is, he might not survive the assassination he was contemplating.Moreover, as he left Marina that morning, Oswald told her to use the money to buy shoes for theirnew baby, Rachel, and "anything" else that she felt was necessary for the children. Marina thoughtthis to be strange since Oswald had always been "most frugal" and hardly allowed her to spend anymoney at all. 6. Before Oswald got into Frazier's car that Friday morning, the day of the assassination, heplaced a long, bulky package on the rear seat, telling Frazier it contained the curtain rods.7. Wesley Frazier said that on the way to work on the morning of the assassination, he noticedthat for the very first time Oswald did not bring his lunch. 8. When Frazier and Oswald arrived in the parking lot for the Book Depository Building on themorning of the assassination, Oswald picked up the long package on the backseat and, for the firsttime ever, walked quickly ahead of Frazier all the way into the building, Oswald being approximatelyfifty feet ahead at the time he entered the building. Always previously, they had walked the threehundred or so yards from the car to the building together. 9. Every morning after arriving for work at the Book Depository Building, Oswald would go tothe domino room on the first floor of the building and read the previous morning's edition of theDallas Morning News, which another employee had brought in. On the morning of the assassination,for the first time, he did not do this. 10. Despite the fact that the president's visit and route received enormous and inescapableattention in the Dallas papers and on radio and TV, and that Oswald usually read both dailynewspapers each day and had to know what was happening, he asked co-worker James Jarmansomewhere between 9:30 and 10:00 on the morning of the assassination why people were gatheringaround the corner of Houston and Elm When Jarman said the president was going to pass by thebuilding, Oswald asked if he knew which way he was coming, whereupon Jarman told Oswald thepresident's route was from Main to Houston to Elm Obviously, Oswald was trying to create thefalse impression that he knew nothing about the president's visit. If not, these were just two nervous,pointless questions by someone who knew he was about to change history.11. After the first and second shots rang out in Dealey Plaza, a motorcade witness, HowardBrennan, sitting on a short concrete wall directly across the street from the sixth- floor window,looked up and actually saw Oswald in the window holding his rifle. Only 120 feet away fromOswald, he got a very good look as he watched, in horror, Oswald (whom he had seen in the windowearlier, before the motorcade had arrived) take deliberate aim and fire the final shot from his rifle. At the police line up that evening, Brennan picked Oswald out, saying, "He looks like him, but Icannot positively say," giving the police the reason that he had since seen Oswald on television andthat could have "messed me up." However, Brennan signed an affidavit at the Dallas sheriffs officewithin an hour after the shooting and before the line up saying, "I believe that I could identify this manif I ever saw him again." On December 18, 1963, Brennan told the FBI he was "sure" that Oswaldwas the man he had seen in the window. And he later told the Warren Commission that in reality atthe line up, "with all fairness, I could have positively identified the man" but did not do so out of fear."If it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, my family or I. . .might not be safe." AlthoughBrennan did not positively identify Oswald at the line up, he did say, as we've seen, that Oswaldlooked like the man. And we know Brennan is legitimate since the description of the man in thewindow that he gave to the authorities right after the shooting a slender, white male about thirtyyears old, five feet ten inches matches Oswald fairly closely, and had to have been the basis for thedescription of the man sent out over police radio just fifteen minutes after the shooting.12. Apart from Brennan, we know that Kennedy's assassin was at the subject sixth-floorwindow. Among other evidence, the rifle that was used to murder Kennedy was found on the sixthfloor of the Book Depository Building, witnesses other than Brennan saw a rifle sticking out of thesoutheasternmost window on the sixth floor, a sniper's nest was found around the subject window,and three cartridge casings from the murder weapon were found on the floor beneath the window.13. Although in his interrogation on Friday afternoon, November 22, Oswald said he was havinglunch on the first floor of the Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, duringSunday's interrogation Oswald slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor at the time of theassassination, making him the only employee of the Book Depository Building who placed himselfon the sixth floor, or was placed there by anyone else, at the time we know an assassin shotKennedy from the sixth floor. In his Sunday-morning interrogation he said that at lunchtime, one ofthe "Negro" employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he declined, saying, "You go on downand send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes." He said before he could finishwhatever he was doing, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he "wentdownstairs,'" a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that he was oneof their employees. The latter confrontation, of course, refers to Officer Marrion Baker, in RoyTruly' s presence, talking to Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom within two minutes after theshooting. Where was Oswald at the time the Negro employee invited him to lunch, and before hedescended to the second-floor lunchroom? The sixth floor. Charles Givens testified that around11:55 a.m., he went up to the sixth floor to get his jacket with cigarettes in it and saw Oswald on thesixth floor. He said to Oswald, "Boy, are you going downstairs. . .it's near lunchtime." He saidOswald answered, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator." There is another very powerful reason why we can know that Oswald, at the time of hisconfrontation with Baker in the second- floor lunchroom, had just come down from the sixth floor, notup from the first floor, as he claimed. It is an accepted part of conspiracy dogma to believe whatOswald told Fritz during his interrogation that he had been eating lunch in the lunchroom on the firstfloor at the time of the shooting and had walked up to the second floor to get a Coke from the Cokemachine just before Baker called out to him. Assassination literature abounds with references to"the Coca-Cola machine in the second floor lunchroom." And indeed there was a Coca-Cola machinein the subject room. But to my knowledge, there is no direct reference in the assassination literatureto a second soft drink machine in the Book Depository Building, and in a phone call to Gary Mack,the curator at the Sixth Floor Museum in the building, he told me he was "unaware" of any other softdrink machine in the building at the time of the assassination. What prompted my call to him was notthe frequent references in the literature to the Dr. Pepper bottle found on the sixth floor after theshooting, since some soft drink machines contain a variety of drinks, but a reference in stock boyBonnie Ray William's testimony before the Warren Commission to his getting "a small bottle of Dr.Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine ," and stock boy Wesley Frazier's testimony that "I have seenhim [Oswald] go to the Dr. Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Dr. Pepper." Neither Williams nor Frazier expressly said what floor this machine was on, and I was aware,from a photo, that there was a refrigerator next to the Coca-Cola machine on the second floor.Through a few phone calls I was able to reach Wesley Frazier, whom I hadn't talked to since 1986,when he testified for me at the London trial. Still living in Dallas, he told me that "there was a Dr.Pepper machine on the first floor." Where, specifically, was it? "It was located by the double freightelevator near the back of the building." Was there a refrigerator nearby? I asked. "Oh, yes, right nextto it." (And indeed, I subsequently found proof of the existence of the machine, with the words "Dr.Pepper" near the top front of it, in an FBI photo taken for the Warren Commission of the northwestcorner of the first floor, and it is located right next to the refrigerator.) Frazier said that "almost all the guys would get their drinks for lunch from this Dr. Peppermachine. It mostly had Dr. Pepper, but also other drinks like orange and root beer." I asked him,"What about the Coca-Cola machine in the second- floor lunchroom? Did it have other drinks too?"He said it "only had Coca-Cola in it" and "the only time anybody would go to that machine is if theywanted a Coke, which I did from time to time." When I asked him whether or not "it was rare" for theworkers to go to the second floor to get a Coke, he said, "Yes. We had our own machine on the firstfloor, where we ate our lunch. It was more convenient to use the machine on the first floor." Fraziersaid he could not say whether Oswald ever went to the second floor to get a Coke or ever drank softdrinks other than Dr. Pepper, but "I only recall seeing him with a Dr. Pepper." Author Jim Bishop,in his book The Day Kennedy Was Shot, writes (without a citation, however) that Oswald"invariably drank Dr. Pepper." And we know that Marina told her biographer, Priscilla McMillan,that when he was working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall in Dallas in 1963, "after supper" he would walkdown the street as he often did "to buy a newspaper and a bottle of Dr. Pepper."So we see that apart from all the conclusive evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy from thesniper's nest, and therefore had to have descended from there to the second floor, his story aboutgoing up to the second floor to get a Coke doesn't even make sense. Why go up to the second floor toget a drink for your lunch when there's a soft drink machine on the first floor, the floor you say youare already on, particularly when the apparent drink of your choice is on this first floor, not thesecond floor?14. There is yet another reason why Oswald's statement that he was on the first floor eatinglunch at the time of the shooting makes no sense at all. If he had been, once he heard the shots and thescreaming and all the commotion outside, if he were innocent, what is the likelihood that he wouldhave proceeded to go, as he claims, up to the second floor to get himself a Coke? How could anysensible person believe a story like that?15. Though Oswald was probably more politically oriented than all thirteen otherwarehousemen at the Book Depository Building put together, if we are to believe Oswald's story, heapparently was the only one who had no interest at all in watching the presidential motorcade go by,either from out on the street or from a window, claiming in one version that he was having lunch onthe first floor of the Book Depository Building at the time of the shooting, and in another version thathe was working on the sixth floor. Indeed, Oswald, the political animal, was so uninterested in thefact that the most powerful politician on earth had just been shot that he had no inclination to stickaround for a few minutes and engage in conversation with his co-workers about the sensational andtragic event. Does that make any sense?16. After the shooting in Dealey Plaza, nearly all of the sixteen warehousemen who worked inthe Depository Building returned to the building and were present at a roll call of employees. OnlyLee Harvey Oswald and Charles Givens were not present; Givens was located shortly thereafter. So only Oswald left the building and was unaccounted for. Dallas Morning News reporter KentBiffle, who was inside the Depository Building, wrote in his journal that day, "I listened as thebuilding superintendent [Roy Truly] told detectives about Lee Oswald failing to show up at a rollcall. My impression is that there was an earlier roll call that had been inconclusive because severalemployees were missing. This time, however, all were accounted for but Oswald. " 17. After exiting the front door of the Book Depository Building, if Oswald hadn't just murderedthe president but still wanted to go home, he only had to turn left on the sidewalk in front of thebuilding, cross Houston, and wait for the Beckley bus, which stopped at the northeast corner ofHouston and Elm. 51 This is the same bus that he took every weekday to and from work, picking it upalmost directly in front of his rooming house 52 and getting off at Houston and Elm, and on the wayhome getting off diagonally across the street from his rooming house on the northwest corner of theintersection of Beckley and Zangs Boulevard.But instead of waiting at the bus stop at Houston and Elm for his Beckley bus, Oswald walkedpast the bus stop and continued walking east on Elm, apparently wanting to get as far away as hecould and looking for the very first Oak Cliff bus that came along, eventually boarding the Marsalisbus, which was proceeding westbound on Elm about seven blocks from the Book DepositoryBuilding. 54 But the closest the Marsalis bus could possibly take him to where he lived was Marsalisand Fifth Street, requiring him, if he had stayed on the bus, to walk five blocks to the west and oneblock north to get to his home. 55 Why would Oswald take a bus that he knew couldn't take him closerthan a half mile from his home (when he knew the next bus, the Beckley bus, would take him to hisfront door) if he weren't in a frenzied flight from the scene of where he had done somethingterrible? 18. When the Marsalis bus he had boarded got snarled in traffic, Oswald got off after just a fewblocks, again demonstrating he was in flight from the scene of a crime. Flight, in the criminal law, isalways considered circumstantial evidence of a consciousness of guilt.19. When Oswald got in the cab shortly after getting off the bus for the trip to Oak Cliff, and thecab drove off, the cabdriver, seeing all the police cars crisscrossing everywhere with their sirensscreaming, said to Oswald, "I wonder what the hell is the uproar?" The cabdriver said Oswald"never said anything." Granted, there are people who are very stingy with their words, and thisnonresponse by Oswald, by itself, is not conclusive of his guilt. But ask yourself this: If a thousandpeople were put in Oswald's place in the cab, particularly if they, like Oswald, were at the scene ofthe assassination in Dealey Plaza and knew what had happened, how many do you suppose wouldn'thave said one single word in response to the cabby's question?20. Instead of having the cabdriver, William Whaley, drop him off at his residence, 1026 NorthBeckley, Oswald had him drive directly past his residence and continue on for about almost blocksbefore dropping him off close to the intersection of Neely and Beckley. Since we know Oswaldwas going home, this was obviously a feeble but incriminating effort to prevent the cabdriver fromtelling the authorities where the passenger he drove that day lived, and/or Oswald, in driving past hisresidence, was checking to see if the authorities had zeroed in on him yet. So instead of getting out ofthe cab in front of his residence, Oswald has the cabdriver, William Whaley, drive right past it. Andthis is the person who conspiracy theorists believe was as innocent as a new born baby of theassassination that had taken place about a half hour earlier.21. Oswald entered his rooming house around 1:00 p.m. on the day of the assassination, and perthe testimony of the housekeeper, Earlene Roberts, before the Warren Commission, he seemed to be"walking unusually fast. . .he was all but running." When she said to him, "Oh, you are in a hurry," hedid not respond. The first person who interviewed Roberts on the afternoon of the assassinationwas Dallas Morning News reporter Hugh Aynesworth. Roberts told Aynesworth, "He came inrunning like the dickens, and I said to him 'You sure are in a hurry' but he didn't say anything. . .justran in his room, got a short tan coat and ran back out."22. Oswald picked up his revolver at the rooming house, not a normal thing to do unless he felthe had a need to protect himself in light of some terrible act he had just committed. That he had nononincriminating reason for getting his revolver was proved by the fact that when police later askedhim why he picked up his revolver, he lamely answered, "You know how boys do when they have agun, they just carry it." 23. In addition to picking up his revolver at the rooming house, Oswald changed his trousers.So Oswald changed his clothing, in the middle of the day, after the assassination.24. Forty-five minutes after the shooting in Dealey Plaza, out of the close to three-quarters of amillion or so people in Dallas, Lee Harvey Oswald is the one who just happened to murder Dallaspolice officer J. D. Tippit on Tenth Street near Patton in the Oak Cliff area, only about nine-tenths ofa mile from his rooming house. One witness, Helen Markham, identified Oswald in a line up later inthe day as the man she saw shoot Tippit. (Years later, the HSCA found another witness, Jack Tatum,who saw Oswald shoot and kill Tippit). Another witness, William Scoggins, identified Oswald asthe man he saw approach Tippit' s car after it pulled up alongside Oswald, who was walking on thesidewalk. He lost sight of Oswald behind some shrubbery, but heard the shots that killed Tippit, sawTippit fall, and then saw Oswald, with a pistol in his left hand, run away south on Patton Street in thedirection of Jefferson Boulevard. Another witness, William Smith, heard some shots, looked up,and saw Oswald running west on Tenth Street out of his sight. Two other witnesses, Virginia andBarbara Davis, identified Oswald as the man they saw cutting across the front lawn of their apartmenthouse right after they heard the sound of gunfire from the Tippit murder scene and a womanscreaming. Oswald had a revolver in his hand and was unloading the shells from his gun on theirlawn. They saw Oswald proceed down Patton toward Jefferson Boulevard. 66 Four other witnesses(Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, B. M. Patterson, and Harold Russell), from their position on twoused-car lots at the intersection of Patton and Jefferson, identified Oswald as being the man who,right after the Tippit shooting, ran past them on Patton toward Jefferson Boulevard (where the TexasTheatre was located) holding a revolver in his hand. Two men who were on one of the lots, WarrenReynolds (the owner of the lot) and Patterson, followed Oswald until they lost him behind a Texacogasoline station on Jefferson. Mrs. Mary Brock, the wife of a man who worked at the gas station,identified Oswald as the person she saw walk past her, at a fast pace, into the parking lot behind thestation.One of the canards of the conspiracy theorists that they've sold to millions is that there was onlyone eyewitness to Oswald killing Officer Tippit, Helen Markham, and she wasn't a strong one. But inaddition to Jack Tatum also being an eyewitness to the killing, for all intents and purposes there wereeight other eyewitnesses. For instance, with the Davis women, can anyone make the argument thatalthough someone else shot Tippit, it was Oswald who was seen running from the Tippit murderscene with a revolver in his hand unloading shells? And when Scoggins saw Oswald approachTippit's car and then lost sight of him for a moment, Tippit's true killer appeared out of nowhere, shotand killed Tippit, then vanished into thin air, whereupon Scoggins then saw Oswald again, runningaway from Tippit's car with a pistol in his hand?So there were ten witnesses who identified Oswald as the murderer. And we know that thephysical evidence was all corroborative of their testimony.Granted, mistaken identity has resulted in many wrongful convictions. But here, and not countingMrs. Brock, there were many eyewitnesses who identified Oswald. Show me any other case whereten eyewitnesses were wrong.I argued to the jury in London that "Oswald's responsibility for President Kennedy'sassassination explains, explains why he was driven to murder Officer Tippit. The murder bore thesignature of a man," I argued, "in desperate flight from some awful deed. What other reason under themoon would he have had to kill Officer Tippit?" It should be noted that even if we assume just forthe sake of argument that Oswald didn't murder Officer Tippit, then who in the world did? Theconspiracy community never says. And although we know why Oswald would have had a reason tokill Tippit, what possible reason would the phantom killer have had?25. Within minutes after the murder of Tippit, the manager of a shoe store on JeffersonBoulevard that was located several doors down from the Texas Theatre, hearing police sirens onJefferson and having heard over the radio of the shooting of the president and Officer Tippit, saw aman enter the recessed area of the store off the sidewalk and stand with his back to the street. Afterthe sirens grew fainter, the man looked over his shoulder, turned around, and walked up the streettoward the Texas Theatre. The shoe store manager positively identified the man as Oswald. BecauseOswald's hair was "messed up and he looked like he had been running, and he looked scared," themanager "thought the guy [Oswald] looked suspicious" and followed Oswald to the theatre. 26. The cashier at the theatre said that Oswald had "ducked in" to the theatre without buying aticket. 27. Responding to a call from the cashier, the police approached Oswald in his seat in thetheatre. When the lead officer told Oswald to stand up, Oswald rose and said, "Well, it is all overnow." What else could he have possibly meant by these words other than that he knew the police hadbeen in pursuit of him and were there to arrest him? And how would he have known they were afterhim if he hadn't killed Kennedy and/or Tippit? 28. After saying, "It is all over now," Oswald immediately struck the officer in the face with hisleft fist and drew his loaded revolver, but he was subdued by other officers after a struggle andplaced under arrest. If Oswald hadn't just murdered Kennedy and Tippit, not only wouldn't he havebeen likely to have a loaded revolver on him, but there wouldn't have been any reason for him todraw that revolver on the arresting officer and strike him Is that what an innocent person normallydoes when a police officer approaches to arrest him pull a revolver on the officer and physicallyresist arrest? Or does he say words to the effect, "What's going on? What have I done? Why are youdoing this to me?"29. After Oswald's arrest at the Texas Theatre, he refused to give even his name to the Dallaspolice officers who captured him. As a pretty consistent general rule, when a person is innocent of acrime, he cooperates with law enforcement.30. While being led by Dallas detectives down the hallway of police headquarters on the day ofthe assassination, Oswald suddenly lifted his manacled right hand in a clenched- fist salute of somenature (see photo section). One would expect an innocent person to have an expression on his faceconveying bewilderment or anger or a plea for help. Instead, it's clear Oswald is making some typeof statement by his clenched- fist salute, one closer to that of defiance, satisfaction, even triumph. In noway would he confess to Kennedy's murder, which would ensure his execution, but by the bodylanguage of his clenched fist (for which he would suffer no consequences), he seems to be tellingposterity that he did it. If not, ask yourself how many people charged with a murder they did notcommit would respond the way Oswald did with a clenched- fist salute? One out of a thousand? Oneout of a million?31. When asked to, Oswald refused to take a lie detector test. By contrast, Ruby volunteered totake one. In view of all the other evidence of Oswald's guilt, his refusal to take a lie detector test,though certainly not conclusive, goes in the direction of showing a consciousness of guilt on his part.32. No one knew Oswald as well as his wife, Marina, and after the assassination, Marina nevercooperated with any writer or journalist as much as she did with Priscilla McMillan, who ended upwriting the very well-received Marina and Lee, a 659-page anatomy of their life together. Marinatold McMillan that when she visited her husband in jail on the day after the assassination, she cameaway knowing he was guilty. She said she saw the guilt in his eyes. Moreover, she said she knew thathad he been innocent, he would have been screaming to high heaven for his "rights," claiming he hadbeen mistreated and demanding to see officials at the very highest levels, just as he had always donebefore over what he perceived to be the slightest maltreatment. For her, the fact that he was socompliant, that he told her he was being treated "all right," was an additional sign that he wasguilty. In Marina's appearance before the Warren Commission on February 3, 1964, she testified, asshe later told McMillan, that when she visited with her husband on November 23 at the jail, "I couldsee by his eyes that he was guilty." In her September 6, 1964, testimony before the WarrenCommission, she said "I have no doubt in my mind that Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy." The Physical Evidence33. A Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial number C2766, was found on the sixth floor of the BookDepository Building shortly after the shooting in Dealey Plaza. Handwriting experts determined thatthe writing on the purchase order and money order for the rifle was Oswald's. And the seller shippedthe rifle to Oswald's post office box in Dallas. So Oswald owned the Carcano. Also, photographstaken by Oswald's wife, Marina, in April of 1963 show Oswald holding the Carcano, and Oswald'sright palm print was found on the underside of the rifle barrel following the assassination. * So weknow that Oswald not only owned but possessed the subject rifle.In the same vein, a tuft of several fresh, dark blue, gray-black, and orange-yellow cotton fiberswas found in a crevice between the butt plate of the Carcano and the wooden stock. The FBIlaboratory found that the colors, and even the twist of the fibers, perfectly matched those on the shirtOswald was wearing at the time of his arrest. Though such fibers could theoretically have comefrom another identical shirt, the prohibitive probability is that they came from Oswald's shirt.34. Firearms identification experts from the Warren Commission and the HSCA concluded thattwo large bullet fragments found in the presidential limousine were parts of a bullet fired fromOswald's Carcano rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons. Likewise, the firearms experts foundthat the whole bullet recovered from a stretcher at Parkland Hospital, believed to be the stretcherGovernor Connally was on, was fired from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons.35. Firearms experts determined that the three expended cartridge shells found on the floorbeneath the southeasternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building were firedin and ejected from Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons, j:So we know, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond all doubt, that Oswald's rifle wasthe murder weapon, the weapon that fired the bullets that struck down the thirty-fifth president of theUnited States. If there were no other evidence against Oswald, the fact that the murder weaponbelonged to him, and that there was no evidence or even likelihood that anyone else had come intopossession of the weapon, would be devastating evidence of his guilt.But likewise, it should be realized that even if, hypothetically, Oswald had succeeded insecreting his weapon and law enforcement never found it, and hence, the murder weapon could neverbe connected to him, as can be seen from all the preceding pages and those that follow, the evidenceagainst him would still be much more than enough to prove his guilt beyond all doubt. Convictions aresecured every day without the prosecution finding the murder weapon.36. A large brown handmade bag of wrapping paper and tape of the appropriate size to containOswald's disassembled Carcano rifle, undoubtedly the bag Wesley Frazier saw Oswald carry intothe Book Depository Building on the morning of the assassination, was found inside the sniper's neston the sixth floor close to the three cartridge cases ejected from Oswald's rifle. Oswald's left indexfingerprint and right palm print were found on the bag. 37. Oswald's left palm print and right index fingerprint were found on top of a book carton nextto the windowsill of the southeasternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building.The carton appeared to have been arranged as a convenient gun rest. Both prints were pointing in asouth-westerly direction, the same direction the presidential limousine was proceeding down ElmStreet. 81 A print of his right palm was found on top of the northwest corner of another carton just tothe rear of the gun rest carton.38. The revolver in Oswald's possession at the time of his arrest at the Texas Theatre was aSmith & Wesson .38 Special calibre revolver, serial number V510210. Handwriting experts foundthat the mail-order coupon for the revolver contained the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald, and theseller of the revolver sent it to Oswald's post office box in Dallas.39. Four bullets were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. A firearms identificationexpert for the Warren Commission concluded that one of the four bullets was fired from Oswald'srevolver to the exclusion of all other weapons, and another expert acknowledged that all four bullets"could have been" fired from the revolver, since the bullets recovered from Tippit had the samegeneral characteristic as those test-fired from Oswald's revolver five lands and grooves (includingthe same width of the lands and grooves) with a right twist. (Recall that the bullets were .38 Specialbullets, not .38 Smith & Wesson bullets, and the barrel of Oswald's revolver was slightly oversizedfor such a bullet. Therefore, during the passage of these slightly smaller bullets through the barrel, thebarrel did not clearly imprint its signature striations or markings on the sides of the bullets to enable apositive identification.)40. Four expended cartridge cases were found near the site of the Tippit killing. Firearmsexperts from the Warren Commission and the HSCA concluded that all four were fired in and ejectedfrom Oswald's Smith & Wesson revolver to the exclusion of all other weapons. At the time of hisarrest, then, Oswald owned and had in his possession the revolver used to kill Tippit. Also at thetime of his arrest, he was carrying in one of his pockets five live .38 Special cartridges.^So we know that not only was Oswald the owner and possessor of the rifle that killedKennedy, but he was also the owner and possessor of the revolver that killed Tippit. In a city ofmore than 700,000 people, what is the probability of one of them being the owner and possessor ofthe weapons that murdered both Kennedy and Tippit, and yet still be innocent of both murders? Aren'twe talking about DNA numbers here, like one out of several billion or trillion? Is there amathematician in the house?41. Dallas police performed a paraffin test on Oswald's hands at the time of his interrogation todetermine if he had recently fired a revolver, and the results were positive, indicating the presence ofnitrates from gunpowder residue on his hands. 42. When Oswald left the Book Depository Building within minutes after the shooting in DealeyPlaza, he left his blue jacket behind, the jacket being found on December 6, 1963, in a depressed areabeneath the windowsill in the domino room on the first floor. Marina Oswald identified the jacketas one of two he owned, the other being a light-coloured gray jacket. 85 Several brown head hairs foundinside the bluejacket had the same microscopic characteristics as a sample of hair taken fromOswald. 86 Leaving one's jacket behind, particularly where Oswald did, can only go in the direction though certainly not conclusively of a consciousness of guilt, not innocence.43. When Oswald left his rooming house around 1:00 p.m. on the day of the assassination, thehousekeeper noticed that he was zipping up his jacket, which he had not been wearing a few minutesearlier when he arrived at the rooming house. When he was arrested around forty-five minutes later,he did not have a jacket. Shortly after Tippit' s murder and after Oswald was seen running toward therear of a Texaco gas station on Jefferson Boulevard, police found a light-coloured jacket with a zipperunder one of the cars in the parking lot behind the gas station. The last time anyone saw Oswaldbefore he appeared near the Texas Theatre was when Mary Brock, the wife of an employee at the gasstation, saw him, wearing a light-coloured jacket, walk past her into the parking lot at a fast pace. Marina Oswald later identified the jacket as being the second one her husband owned. What isadditionally damning to Oswald is that the jacket was found along the path (from Tenth and Patton,south on Patton to Jefferson, then right or west on Jefferson, with a slight detour behind the gasstation, then on to the Texas Theatre) we know the murderer of Officer Tippit took after the slaying.Finally, dark blue, gray-black, and orange-yellow cotton fibers were found in the inside areas of thesleeves of the jacket, and their microscopic characteristics matched those of the dark blue, gray-black, and orange-yellow cotton fibers composing the brownish shirt that Oswald was wearing at thetime of his arrest. 44. Oswald's clipboard was found on the sixth floor after the assassination. Three orders forScott, Foresman & Company books were on the clipboard, all dated November 22, 1963. Oswaldhad not filled any of the orders. Oswald's Own Words during His InterrogationI told the jury in London that during his interrogation, "Oswald, from his own lips, told us he wasguilty. Almost the same as if he had said, 'I murdered President Kennedy.' How did he tell us? Well,the lies he told, one after another, showed an unmistakable consciousness of guilt." Oswald triedvery hard to lie his way out of the quickly developing evidence against him Let's look at some of themore important lies he told, each of which, alone and by itself, is evidence of his guilt because if hewere innocent, he wouldn't have had any reason to tell even one of the lies. More often than not in acriminal case, the means a criminal employs to conceal his guilt (here, Oswald's words) are theprecise means that reveal his culpability.45. Oswald lied when he denied purchasing the Carcano rifle from Klein's Sporting GoodsCompany in Chicago. He even denied owning any rifle at all. Since Oswald knew he had killedKennedy with that Carcano rifle, he knew he had no choice but to deny that the rifle was his. (It'sinteresting to note that although Oswald himself knew the obvious, that ownership of the murderweapon was tantamount to identifying himself as Kennedy's killer, his countless defenders in theconspiracy community apparently do not realize this.)46. When Oswald was shown a backyard photograph of himself holding the Mannlicher-Carcanorifle, he lied and said it was not he holding the rifle, that someone had superimposed his face onsomeone else's body.47. He also lied when he said he had never seen the photograph before, even though handwritingexperts concluded it was Oswald's handwriting on the back of a copy of the photograph that wasfound among the personal effects of a friend of Oswald's who later died. 48. Oswald consciously tried to distance himself from the murder weapon so much that heapparently even went to the following extreme: He and Marina and their daughter June lived at theapartment on Elsbeth Street in Dallas for exactly four months (November 3, 1962, to March 3,1963), 95 and then moved to the apartment on Neely Street for close to two months (March 3, 1963, toApril 24, 1963). 96 However, when he was asked to furnish all of his previous residences since hisreturn from Russia, and the approximate time he lived at each, he gave all of them (including hisresidences in Fort Worth and New Orleans) with one notable exception. He omitted any reference tothe Neely residence, the residence, of course, where he knew his wife had photographed him with themurder weapon in the backyard. He cleverly accounted for the close to two months at Neely by sayinghe lived seven months (not the actual four) at Elsbeth. And when Captain Fritz, during hisinterrogation of Oswald, asked Oswald about the Neely address, Oswald flat-out denied ever livingthere. All of this, of course, shows a consciousness of guilt on Oswald's part.49. Oswald denied telling Wesley Frazier that the reason he came to Irving on Thursday nightwas to get curtain rods for his Dallas apartment. 50. He also denied putting any kind of long package or bag on the backseat of Frazier's car onthe morning of the assassination, saying he only brought a cheese sandwich and some fruit to workwith him. But unfortunately for Oswald, not only did Frazier see him put the long package in the car,but Frazier's sister, Linnie Mae Randle, also saw him put such a package in the car. Oswald alsodenied carrying any long package or bag into the Book Depository Building, which Frazier saw himdo. He also denied telling Frazier that curtain rods were inside the large bag. Warren Commission critics and defenders of Oswald have always steadfastly maintained thatthe brown paper bag was too short to contain even a disassembled Carcano. But if the Carcano wasnot in the bag that Frazier and his sister, Linnie Mae Randle, saw Oswald place in the backseat, andsomething nonincriminating was, instead of lying and saying he never placed a large bag or any otherbag on the backseat, why didn't Oswald admit placing the bag there and simply tell Captain Fritzwhat was in the bag? To put it succinctly, if Oswald's rifle wasn't in that bag, he wouldn't have hadany reason to lie and say that he did not put the bag on the backseat of Frazier's car and did not carryit into the building that day.51 . Oswald told Fritz that the only thing he brought to work on the morning of the assassinationwas his lunch, but we know from Frazier that this was the only day he noticed that Oswald did notbring his lunch.52. Oswald told Fritz that at the time the president was shot, he was having lunch on the firstfloor with "Junior" (James Jarman Jr.) and another employee he did not identify, but Jarman testifiedthat he did not have lunch with Oswald, that he ate alone.53. Oswald told Fritz he had bought his .38 calibre Smith & Wesson revolver in Fort Worth, when he actually purchased it from a mail-order house in Los Angeles.Bugliosi, Vincent (2007), Reclaiming History: The Assassination of John F Kennedy, ISBN 978-0-393-07212-9
- #8 by Fergus O'brien on April 25, 2024, 07:33:01 PM
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Quote from: Bill Brown on April 23, 2024, 12:55:39 PMYou're absolutely right, Richard.Most of those polled who supposedly believe the assassination was the result of a conspiracy don't know a damn thing about the case at all. They don't know names like Ruth Paine, J.D. Tippit, Howard Brennan and Buell Frazier. They only know terms like "grassy knoll' and "magic bullet".ive spoken with a raft of LN over the years who dont know peoples names , or know them badly example TIBBITS . i knew an LN who stated he was an american history teacher and that he taught a course on the assassination . he posted a photo of Brennan sat on the while wall directly facing the depository and he stated that the photo was taken at 12.30 on november 22 1963 . i pointed out that he was wrong and he attacked me . i posted a photo (a still ) of brennan sat in his actual position on the wall , he said it was a fake , not only that but that i faked it lol . i asked him what was going on at 12.30 that tragic day in that tragic place ? . i pointed out that there was obviously a motorcade and that JFK and Jackie drove right in front of Brennan while sat on the wall , that there was a large crowd . NONE OF WHICH ARE SEEN IN HIS PHOTO . why ? because it was not taken that tragic day but months later in 1964 . and that is an LN who is a history teacher teaching a class on this subject , i feel sorry for any students he has . so yes while it can be argued that some people who believe in conspiracy have not properly researched i can assure you that the same applies to LN . but i dont judge all LNs because some have not properly researched , plenty of LN have properly researched Bill , you are one of them , so you are aware of this . and plenty of so called CT also have properly researched .and we both know that you are all too aware of that also .also as you have never spoken to MOST of the people polled in any poll it is safe to say you dont know a single thing about them .you certainly are qualified to speak about those you know or have spoken with / debated with over the years (i imagine its quite a few after all these years ) and offer an opinion on them . when i speak i speak about those i have spoken with or debated over the years also , not about those i have never met in my life .
- #9 by Charles Collins on April 25, 2024, 07:20:25 PM
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I found this in a search for scale car models that might give you a potential source:1:87 scale - These are compatible with H0 scale model trains and tend to be more popular in the USA and continental Europe. They are more commonly made of plastic and German companies such as Herpa and Wiking, produce wide ranges of highly-detailed models in this scale.
- #10 by Paul McBrearty on April 25, 2024, 07:07:45 PM
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Most of Oswald's alleged statements as to his whereabouts and actions during and after the shooting are nothing more than desperate attempts by him to provide an alibi or establish doubt in endeavouring to distance himself from the act of assassination; in straightforward terms, lies that are amongst the provable numerous he articulated.
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