JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Duncan MacRae on February 21, 2024, 02:13:41 PM
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Marilyn Sitzman: No Shots Were Fired From Behind The Grassy Knoll Picket Fence
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It is difficult to gauge the credibility of Sitzman due to her being positioned inside the mysterious "Knoll Corridor". This "Corridor" extends East from the N-S section of the Picket Fence up to the Stemmons Sign. Sitzman was interviewed by Josiah Thompson for his "Six Seconds In Dallas" (1967)" blockbuster book. In this interview, Sitzman detailed that immediately after she climbed down from the Zapruder Perch, she then "Ran" down the Knoll and spoke with 2 G-Men. Then, she said she walked back Up the knoll and talked with 1 additional G-Man. NONE of Sitzman's alleged up-and-down the Knoll Adventure is corroborated by a single image from 11/22/63. DPD Motorcycle Officer Bobby Hargis gave WC Testimony regarding his running up to a, "little wall, brick wall". This would be the "little wall" that runs down from the Pergola Shelter that stood behind Zapruder. There are No 11/22/63 Images of Officer Hargis being anywhere near this "little wall, brick wall". This wall also sits inside the, "Knoll Corridor". Gordon Arnold claimed he was standing within feet of the N-S section of the Picket Fence when a shot from behind buzzed passed his (L) ear. It was at this point Arnold claimed to have been assaulted by a "No Hat" policeman. Gordon Arnold is yet another JFK Assassination Eyewitness whose story unfolded inside the "Knoll Corridor". And of course, there are No Images to corroborate it.
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This re-enactment shows that no shot came from either grassy knoll:
If you're looking for a second shooter, he was also behind the motorcade (probably in one of those many Dal-Tex windows).
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When the SS did their "reconstruction" inside Dealey Plaza they screwed up. In one of their filmed sequences from the alleged "snipers nest", their filming of Elm St. wandered too far to the (N) side of the street. The area from the Pergola Shelter behind Zapruder down to The Steps reveal a Tarp or Tent covering this entire area. It's obvious that repair work was underway. This would be due to errant/ricochet shot(s). It's tough to calculate if shots were fired from behind the Picket Fence due to the E-W section of fencing having been moved several feet Down/Toward Elm St. And, if you move that E-W section of fencing, then you likewise are forced to move/lengthen the N-S section of the picket fence. The point/corner where both sections of fencing currently meet are nowhere close to the same point they were on 11/22/63. The same goes for the alleged physical position of Badgeman on 11/22/63. This crime scene has been Radically changed. In fact, that short E-W running Black Dog Man section of the wall did Not meet The Steps on 11/22/63. There was plenty of Open Space between that E-W Wall and The Steps on 11/22/63. People were filmed running through this open space as they ran toward the railroad yard. And of course, the bulk of this altered crime scene sits inside the "Knoll Corridor".
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jfk inside the target car ? , i think before we rely on such (tv documentaries ) that we should research them and see if there are problems with them .
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/jfk-inside-the-target-car-part-one
parts 2 and 3 of the review can be read via the link above also .
now all that said because a documentary has some problems it does not mean there is zero information of use in them .
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jfk inside the target car ? , i think before we rely on such (tv documentaries ) that we should research them and see if there are problems with them .
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/jfk-inside-the-target-car-part-one
parts 2 and 3 of the review can be read via the link above also .
now all that said because a documentary has some problems it does not mean there is zero information of use in them .
Agree 100% regarding there is almost always something of value to be gleaned from any documentary/presentation. LeRoy Blevins had some kooky ideas, but the images he posted always provoked thought. Currently, "No TrueFlags Here" over on You Tube also drives this point home. He proffers some very wild theories, but the multitude of JFK Assassination images he posts are invaluable along with the thought they invoke.
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I guess then that Harold Norman must have just heard nails hitting the floor above his head, like Jerry Spence proposed in that mock trial vs Bugliosi?
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I guess then that Harold Norman must have just heard nails hitting the floor above his head, like Jerry Spence proposed in that mock trial vs Bugliosi?
people hearing shot or shots or shells fall in one location would not rule out shot or shots from other locations , would you not agree ? . so norman and co hearing shots above them does not refute potential shot or shots from another location .some people heard no shots and some only heard two . that means that at the least that some failed to hear a third shot . if they failed to hear one shot it is not illogical then to assert that its not impossible for another additional shot to be fired and not heard .
by the way harold norman is a witness on film that also placed Oswald on the first floor at a time when OFFICIALLY we are told Oswald was only on the 6th floor . and (from memory ) he testified that while passing through the lunchroom that SOMEONE WAS IN THERE but that he did not take note of whom it was . Oswald said he was in there and that HE SAW THESE TWO VERY MEN .so if mr norman is credible he then must be deemed credible also on the above points . or would you disagree ? .
the mock trial is not something we should rely upon , it had few witnesses . and spence while a top lawyer no doubt had nowhere near enough time to research all the evidence in this case .
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This re-enactment shows that no shot came from either grassy knoll:
If you're looking for a second shooter, he was also behind the motorcade (probably in one of those many Dal-Tex windows).
is not Bobby hargis on film (well it may also be audio ) saying the motorcade came to a rolling stop ? . is he not also the left rear motorcycle officer (stationed i believe inside left behind the limo ) splattered with blood and gore from jfks head and which prompted him (wrongly ) to feel that he too had been shot ? . what are your thoughts on this .
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Agree 100% regarding there is almost always something of value to be gleaned from any documentary/presentation. LeRoy Blevins had some kooky ideas, but the images he posted always provoked thought. Currently, "No TrueFlags Here" over on You Tube also drives this point home. He proffers some very wild theories, but the multitude of JFK Assassination images he posts are invaluable along with the thought they invoke.
hi Royell thank you for replying . yes indeed . even the most biased of sources can offer a raft of information that we can all use . as an example even MCadams site has a wealth of information , documents , photos etc that we can all use . a lot of people will attack for example jim fetzer , and maybe that is or is not warranted , that is for the individual to assess for them selves . but he has videos and documentaries that contain a lot of info and more . he took part in the jfk horsemen showing video and audio of the four motorcycle officers stationed behind jfks limo saying the limo came to a rolling stop , not a full stop .these men were among the closest to jfk and his limo .
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hi Royell thank you for replying . yes indeed . even the most biased of sources can offer a raft of information that we can all use . as an example even MCadams site has a wealth of information , documents , photos etc that we can all use . a lot of people will attack for example jim fetzer , and maybe that is or is not warranted , that is for the individual to assess for them selves . but he has videos and documentaries that contain a lot of info and more . he took part in the jfk horsemen showing video and audio of the four motorcycle officers stationed behind jfks limo saying the limo came to a rolling stop , not a full stop .these men were among the closest to jfk and his limo .
Yeah, I watched/listened to that JFK Four Horsemen presentation that was posted years back on You Tube. (2 Parts?) It was extremely informative. Including the DPD motorcycle "crackup" on the way to Parkland Hospital that was revealed during that presentation.
I remain curious as to DPD Motorcycle(s) racing UP the Knoll. We already have Holland and Bowers reporting their seeing at least 1 DPD motorcycle racing UP-THE-KNOLL. During my research which has Proven we are Not seeing DPD Motorcycle Officer Haygood inside the train yard on the Darnell Film, I uncovered a 3rd witness to a cop motorcycle racing UP-THE-KNOLL. In Trask's "Pictures Of The Pain" pg 398, Frank Cancellare is quoted, "Police ran their bikes UP the bank towards the railroad overpass". Cancellare exited Press Bus #1 at about the corner of Houston and Elm and then proceeded down Elm St toward the Triple Underpass. He eventually got down close to the Triple Underpass where he took his famous photo that showed Officer Haygood standing atop the Triple Underpass with a then young Robert MacNeil, (PBS MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour) standing on the (R). Cancellare is another very solid, reliable Witness regarding a motorcycle racing UP-THE-KNOLL.
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its interesting that all 4 motorcycle officers at the left and right rear of the limo were splattered to some degree with blood / gore . i mean to listen to LN and the things ive seen them claim the blood / gore only went forwards or indeed straight up . ive no doubt that blood/gore did travel in those directions . but it went in all directions spraying on both sides of the inside rear of the limo .ive seen LN claim that the four motorcycle officers merely drove beneath the blood spatter that was by then above them , and then it merely dropped down on them . but hargis (wrongly) was of the impression that he too might have been hit , he had that impression due to the blood and gore hitting him . LN will and have argued against the wording used .i my self have used the wording sufficient IE the gore struck hargis with a level of force SUFFICIENT that he felt (wrongly ) that he too may have been hit . but i think my wording was reasonable .however LN dont care for that because it goes against there DROPS OF GORE DROPPING DOWN ON THE OFFICERS claim . if we look at line of sight between the knoll (not badgeman area but the area behind the men on the steps ) and brehm and his sons position (brehm saw a particle of jfks head fly rearward and leftward and land in the area where he was stood ) well hargis was right in that line . i have asked many LN many times about brehms claim (considering they cite him as a credible witness and war veteran ) and none want to talk about it . usually they say brehm said all shots came from behind , well he said two shots . i mentioned in another thread that if i could have interviewed mr brehm that i would ask him (based on his military training and service ) if what he said he saw ( a piece of jfks head flying rearward and leftward towards him ) correlates with all shots coming only from behind ? , if he could explain this via shots only from behind .i have no doubt mr brehm was an honest and decent man who witnessed a terrible sight that he said he would never forget .and so i do think he would have answered as honestly as he could .i posted brehms OWN WORDS verbatim in another thread and someone tried to dispute them . he is on film (seen in a video on youtube ) saying what i posted verbatim .yet i was attacked .
there is an officer on film on the grass of the knoll if you will laying his bike down .i think that was haygood . chaney was on his side of the limo also .i know hargis pulled to the left curb , martin was outside him .when the words racing up the knoll are used do i take that that you mean drove along the grass if you will ? or to mean up the area of the steps ?. in the horsemen if my memory serves wasnt it said or perhaps hargis himself said it that hargis ran across the street between the limo and the SS follow up car . we dont see that on film . but because we cant see something it doesnt mean it was not there or did not happen . i am sure these motorcycle officers have been discussed on many threads at different times but perhaps a WHAT THE 4 JFK MOTORCYCLE OFFICERS SAW thread may be an interesting thread ? .i am sure our LN friends will have much to say on that .
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With regard to Brehm, I have often wondered why I have Not seen any 11/22/63 recollections from his boy. That boy at his side was young, but certainly old enough to recall at a minimum bits-n-pieces of what went on around him on that momentous day.
Haygood dumped his DPD motorcycle alongside the Elm St. curb. He never got his bike on top of the Elm Sidewalk, not to mention onto the grassy knoll. That is Not Officer Haygood on the Darnell/Martin Films. Haygood made a Documented 12:35 transmission from his motorcycle. During his WC testimony, Haygood verified making that 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle on the Elm St Curb. The JFK Kill Shot happened at 12:30. In an elapsed time of 5 minutes, it is physically impossible for Officer Haygood to: (1) Dump his motorcycle at the Elm curb, (2) struggle with/straighten up his motorcycle, (Couch Film), (3) Run up and then across the grassy knoll, (4) Climb atop the Triple Underpass, (Cancellare Photo), (5) Travel to the railroad yard, (6) WALK across the railroad yard, (Darnell/Martin Films), (7) WALK down the Elm St Ext toward the TSBD (Darnell/Martin Films), 8. Travel down Elm St, and, (9) Arrive at his motorcycle and make his Documented 12:35 transmission. In addition to that, the Cancellare Photo of Officer Haygood standing atop the Triple Underpass clearly shows him to be wearing Both of his gloves. The Darnell/Martin film snippets which allegedly displays Haygood walking across the train yard and then down the Elm St Ext show him to NOT be wearing his (R) hand glove. Why in the distance from the Triple Underpass to the train yard would Officer Haygood remove his (R) hand glove? That alleged DPD Motorcycle Cop captured on the Darnell/Martin films is NOT Officer Haygood. To this day, Officer Haygood is the ONLY DPD Motorcycle Cop credited with being inside the train yard during this same time period.
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brehms son was young that day but yes like you i dont think i have ever seen him speak on film . i have seen the newman children but not brehms son .but some people are private people naturally , and others may simply not want to get involved again in this case .but it would be interesting to know if he saw the piece of jfks head that his father saw land near the curb .
yes you are correct a motorcycle officer struggles with his bike and lays it down .as haygood ran to the concrete rail and stood on it i guess it was just a natural assumption that these were both haygood .
i had to remind myself but it was bowers who said he saw a motorcycle cop shoot up the incline .i would think that that must have been haygood who brehm saw having dropped his motorcycle at the curb .
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people hearing shot or shots or shells fall in one location would not rule out shot or shots from other locations , would you not agree ? . so norman and co hearing shots above them does not refute potential shot or shots from another location .some people heard no shots and some only heard two . that means that at the least that some failed to hear a third shot . if they failed to hear one shot it is not illogical then to assert that its not impossible for another additional shot to be fired and not heard .
Agreed.
...by the way harold norman is a witness on film that also placed Oswald on the first floor at a time when OFFICIALLY we are told Oswald was only on the 6th floor . and (from memory ) he testified that while passing through the lunchroom that SOMEONE WAS IN THERE but that he did not take note of whom it was . Oswald said he was in there and that HE SAW THESE TWO VERY MEN.
The only thing about that is that implies that Oswald either:
1. An innocent man freely moving around the building (so obviously not being set up as the assassin) - but then how to explain that his rifle was found on the 6th floor, the eye witnesses,...
2. Part of the conspiracy, having left the rifle up their for a co-conspiracist to use (he wouldn't be that stupid).
If he was the lone nut, he wouldn't have made a mad dash up to the 6th floor. For all he knew there might've been co-workers up there (which there were!).
In what sort of scenario do you see Oswald being in the lunchroom at the moment that Norman noticed someone there?
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brehms son was young that day but yes like you i dont think i have ever seen him speak on film . i have seen the newman children but not brehms son .but some people are private people naturally , and others may simply not want to get involved again in this case .but it would be interesting to know if he saw the piece of jfks head that his father saw land near the curb .
yes you are correct a motorcycle officer struggles with his bike and lays it down .as haygood ran to the concrete rail and stood on it i guess it was just a natural assumption that these were both haygood .
i had to remind myself but it was bowers who said he saw a motorcycle cop shoot up the incline .i would think that that must have been haygood who brehm saw having dropped his motorcycle at the curb .
We have: (1) Holland standing atop the Triple Underpass, (2) Bowers inside the Railroad Tower, and (3) Cancellare as he traveled down Elm St. These are 3 very respected witnesses ALL telling the same story of seeing a motorcycle racing UP-THE-KNOLL immediately following the Kill Shot. With regard to these 3 mistaking Haygood as to doing this, I do Not believe the Haygood DPD motorcycle even cleared the Elm St curb. Therefore, his motorcycle never reached/touched the very wide Elm St. sidewalk and certainly never came into contact with even a single blade of the Knoll grass. It is hard to believe that these 3 witnesses from 3 differing points inside Dealey Plaza mistook a motorcycle at the curb for a motorcycle streaking Up-The-Knoll.
Remember that Brehm and Son were standing in front of the Babushka Woman as everything unfolded on Elm St. That kid's possible recollections with regard to her would be interesting to say the least. To a kid in 1963, somebody with a camera would attract their attention.
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We have: (1) Holland standing atop the Triple Underpass, (2) Bowers inside the Railroad Tower, and (3) Cancellare as he traveled down Elm St. These are 3 very respected witnesses ALL telling the same story of seeing a motorcycle racing UP-THE-KNOLL immediately following the Kill Shot. With regard to these 3 mistaking Haygood as to doing this, I do Not believe the Haygood DPD motorcycle even cleared the Elm St curb. Therefore, his motorcycle never reached/touched the very wide Elm St. sidewalk and certainly never came into contact with even a single blade of the Knoll grass. It is hard to believe that these 3 witnesses from 3 differing points inside Dealey Plaza mistook a motorcycle at the curb for a motorcycle streaking Up-The-Knoll.
Remember that Brehm and Son were standing in front of the Babushka Woman as everything unfolded on Elm St. That kid's possible recollections with regard to her would be interesting to say the least. To a kid in 1963, somebody with a camera would attract their attention.
yes very interesting points Royell . i will have to review the films again . some times we take things for granted , look again and see what we initially failed to see . so i need to look again and refresh my memory . regarding Brehms son yes he may remember some things that may be of interest .
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Agreed.
The only thing about that is that implies that Oswald either:
1. An innocent man freely moving around the building (so obviously not being set up as the assassin) - but then how to explain that his rifle was found on the 6th floor, the eye witnesses,...
2. Part of the conspiracy, having left the rifle up their for a co-conspiracist to use (he wouldn't be that stupid).
If he was the lone nut, he wouldn't have made a mad dash up to the 6th floor. For all he knew there might've been co-workers up there (which there were!).
In what sort of scenario do you see Oswald being in the lunchroom at the moment that Norman noticed someone there?
well Oswald may or may not have been setup to take the blame , frankly in my view if he was setup that hoover , the commission and to a degree perhaps the DPD were involved in this , and lets not forget the agency in all this . the DPD were told early on to cease any talk of conspiracy international or otherwise Oswald was their man .all that said lets say Oswald was setup to take the blame , evidence left on the 6th floor to frame him . lets us say that is so . now i know if Oswald was seen by many say outside the door at 12.30 that would rule him out as being on the 6th floor .but really all he would need to do is be somewhere in the building (anywhere ) where people would either not see him or merely see a person but take no notice of who . in such a case Oswald could be anywhere in the building RIGHT ? . we know well we can say that witnesses saw Oswald on the 1st and 2nd floors between about 11.45am and upwards of 12.15 to 12.20 .the last alleged sighting was the 2nd floor in and around 12.15 to 12.20 .sat alone in a booth . Oswald said he saw jarmin and norman also and they admitted they had passed through the lunchroom . norman said SOMEONE WAS THERE but took little notice of who. now even if i could prove all the above to be 100% accurate and true that would still leave Oswald time to get to the 6th floor before 12.30 . all be it , Williams then would pose another problem as he was still up there until a few minutes before Norman and jarmin arrived on the 5th floor . then we have additional problems after 12.30 getting Oswald back down stairs , such as dougherty on the 6th and then 5th floors never seeing a running or walking Oswald but having heard shots . then Dorthy garner failing to see Oswald or anyone go past her . and then truly on the 2nd and then 3rd floor landings and stairs where she should have passed Oswald but never did .
i prefer to examine the evidence and see if it fits or not , works or not , passes the smell test or not if you will , i really dont care for theory or scenario etc . a little speculation has its place . i dont think it has been proven beyond doubt that Oswald took possession of and owned the rifle in evidence .despite protestations to the contrary by LN .
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yes very interesting points Royell . i will have to review the films again . some times we take things for granted , look again and see what we initially failed to see . so i need to look again and refresh my memory . regarding Brehms son yes he may remember some things that may be of interest .
I believe I have the "Haygood not being Haygood" nailed. When Haygood gave his WC Testimony, the WC attorney was attempting to prove that the TSBD was sealed off immediately after Haygood made his 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle at the Elm St curb. All that Documenting the Haygood 12:35 transmission did was PROVE that the alleged motorcycle cop we see on the Darnell and Martin Films is NOT Haygood. There simply is Not enough time for Haygood to travel from atop the Triple Overpass/Walk across the train yard/Walk down the Elm St. Ext/ and then make his 12:35 transmission from his motorcycle at the Elm St curb. Not even close.This is where the Old Guard JFK Researchers were consistently derelict in their duties. They are extremely ignorant when it comes to Sworn Testimony whether it be WC, HSCA, ARRB, or Clay Shaw Trial. Like a kid being attracted to bright crayons and a coloring book, they are fixated on the JFK Assassination Photos and Film Footage. Every single piece of this assassination puzzle warrants intense scrutiny.
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i agree every part of this case needs to be examined with a fine tooth comb, especially those areas that the commissions etc decided was best not to delve too deeply into .now that you mention it yes logically it would have been difficult for haygood to travel the distance you mention .i need to review the various films from that day .ive already looked at a few , so i will review them and see what thoughts i have on this .
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i agree every part of this case needs to be examined with a fine tooth comb, especially those areas that the commissions etc decided was best not to delve too deeply into .now that you mention it yes logically it would have been difficult for haygood to travel the distance you mention .i need to review the various films from that day .ive already looked at a few , so i will review them and see what thoughts i have on this .
Regarding films showing Officer Haygood: (1) the Darnell film shows him knifing his motorcycle between 2 Camera Cars as they head down Elm St, (2) Wiegman Film Shows him hugging the (N) Elm curb as he passes the Stemmons Sign, and (3) The Couch Film shows Haygood straightening up his motorcycle after dumping it at the curb on the (W) side of The Steps. Next comes the Photos: (1) Cabluck shows Haygood standing on a support beam attached to a section of the fencing that connects the Triple Underpass to the picket fence. Haygood is all alone in this photo. No eyewitnesses have caught up to him at this point, and (2) Cancellare Photo shows Haygood now standing atop a Triple Underpass Pillar and there are Now at least 10 eyewitnesses surrounding him. The Darnell film and the Martin Film show a DPD Motorcycle Cop WALKING across the entire train yard, and then WALKING down the Elm St. Ext toward the TSBD. The kill shot = 12:30 and Haygood made his Documented transmission from his motorcycle at 12:35. That gives him a Total of 5 Minutes to drive his motorcycle down Elm St, dump the bike, straighten it up, run Up and Across the Grassy Knoll, climb over the top of the Triple Underpass, travel to the train yard, Walk across the entire train yard, Walk down the Elm St Ext, and then get back down to his motorcycle at the bottom of Elm St. There's physically no way to do All of this in a mere 5 minutes. Personally, I believe it took Haygood probably close to 4 minutes to just get atop the Triple Underpass as photo'd by Cancellare. The obvious question here is just who is this alleged DPD Motorcycle Cop walking across the train yard and then walking down the Elm St. Ext toward the TSBD? If this is a legitimate DPD Motorcycle Cop, where is his motorcycle?
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...well Oswald may or may not have been setup to take the blame , frankly in my view if he was setup that hoover , the commission and to a degree perhaps the DPD were involved in this , and lets not forget the agency in all this .
I can't see anything that suggests that there was a prior plot that included the framing of Oswald.
However, after the assassination had happened, Hoover and Co. and the WC did all they could to make it seem like a lone gunman was responsable, even though they we aware that shots came from more than one location.
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There has to be at least one shot fired from behind the JFK limo as it went down Elm st to account for the very obvious forward motion of JCs right shoulder and his counter clockwise rotation of his body which is apparent beginning at Z225.
If that’s not also the same shot that just went thhu JFKs back (presuming Knotts lab results are accurate, ) then the shot hitting JC still had to be.from behind. So it’s a simple matter to work out from what angle and height that allows a shot from behind the limo to go past or over the right shoulder of JFK.
Projecting the exit / entrance wounds thru JC backwards, the angle suggests a high window also such as the SW 6th floor window of TSBD. That window has more side view of the limo so theoretically may allow a trajectory path into JCs back that clears past JFKs right shoulder perhaps , passing by the side of JFKs right arm?
Not sure , however if the tree is more of an obstacle for the SW window angle perspective at the Z225 shot.
If the tree is too much an obstacle at level of the 6th floor TSBD SW then maybe the TSBD rooftop would clear it but then the angle is steeper and not sure that trajectory would line up correctly with JCs entry/exit wounds.
If none of the options work and the Knotts lab result cannot line up the SBT , Then I’m at a complete loss to explain JCs very noticeable turn of his right shoulder, and then clutching his hat as though from an involuntary nervous system reaction to his hand and wrist being hit also.
Has there been any other peer review of Knotts lab “science” analysis to determine if they may have made an error?
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They were fired from the Pergola behind Zapruder, check out the enhanced shot of the Pergola you see the tall Tramp in there great place to hide, and another thing the Zapruder we were in on the conspiracy because Zapruder wife was the Bashbuka lady
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They were fired from the pergola behind zapruder
if you enhance the pergola you see one of the 3 traThey were fired from the pergola behind zapruder
mps back there they actually killed jfk
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They were fired from the Pergola behind Zapruder, check out the enhanced shot of the Pergola you see the tall Tramp in there great place to hide, and another thing the Zapruder we were in on the conspiracy because Zapruder wife was the Bashbuka lady
hi Mark where is the enhanced shot you mention ? i dont believe i have seen it . thanks in advance .
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hi Mark where is the enhanced shot you mention ? i dont believe i have seen it . thanks in advance .
And while you're at it Mark, could you provide the evidence you've unearthed that has the Babushka Lady married to Zapruder.
I'm really looking forward to that Thumb1: