JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Michael T. Griffith on January 26, 2024, 02:45:24 PM
Title: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on January 26, 2024, 02:45:24 PM
JFK's dramatic forward jolt and arms flinging in Z226-232 is the second-most obvious reaction in the Zapruder film. Beginning at Z226, Kennedy's body is visibly jolted sharply forward, and the position of his hands and elbows--particularly his elbows--changes dramatically as they are flung upward and forward. The force and speed of these movements are quite startling and impossible to miss--they are even more obvious and dramatic when you view the film in slow motion.
However, government panels have consistently ignored this dramatic reaction. Why? One, because the reaction is obviously in response to the impact of a bullet or large fragment striking JFK in the back. Two, because when JFK first reemerges from behind the road sign in Z224-225, he is clearly already reacting to a previous wound as he continues to bring his hands upward and near his throat and has a pained look on his face--while he's doing this, he is suddenly jolted forward and his forearms are flung upward and forward, starting in Z226. Three, the HSCA Photographic Evidence Panel (PEP), to its great credit, admitted (1) that JFK was hit at or before Z190 and (2) that JFK begins to visibly react by right around Z200. In fact, let's read what the PEP said in their report:
Quote
At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus. . . .
. .. it was determined that Kennedy was struck by this bullet at a time corresponding approximately to Zapruder frame 190. (6 HSCA 17, 43)
PEP member Dr. William Hartmann explained that the panel found that Willis slide 5 also indicated that JFK was hit at or shortly before Z190. Willis said he snapped slide 5 in a startle reaction to the sound of a shot. Hartmann noted that slide 5 corresponds to Z202, and that it would have taken at least 12 frames for Willis's neurological system to register and then react to the shockwave and sound of the shot and then for his finger muscles to snap the picture. "So," notes Hartmann, "that is very nice, consistent evidence that something happened, say, at 190 or shortly before 190" (2 HSCA 15).
If one is honest and credible enough to acknowledge the two sets of wound reactions in Z200-225 and in Z226-232, the simple, obvious, self-evident explanation for them is that JFK was hit in the throat a few frames before Z190 and that he was hit in the back a frame or two before Z226. This explains why his waving motion suddenly starts to freeze by no later than Z200, why he starts to rapidly turn his head from right to left while he's freezing his waving motion, why he is reaching for his throat with a pained facial look when he reemerges from behind the road sign, and why he is suddenly knocked forward in Z226.
WC apologists are still, embarrassingly, in denial about JFK's pre-Z207 reaction and about the pre-Z190 hit, but the HSCA PEP acknowledged both. Perhaps the HSCA PEP experts were influenced by the fact that the pre-Z207 reaction had already been discussed in a 1971 article in the prestigious Journal of Forensic Sciences. The article, titled “Photographic Evidence and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy,” was published in the October 1971 edition of the journal and was written by Don Olson and Ralph Turner. Olson was a professor of physics at the University of California, while Turner was a professor of criminal justice at Michigan State University. I quote one short paragraph from their analysis:
Quote
As the President moves and rotates to the left, his right arm is pulled back into the car. While his elbow has been resting outside the car, it comes up noticeably at frame 195. The President’s elbow can be seen to cross the chrome strip on the side of the car at frames 198-199. As President Kennedy disappears from view behind the sign, his right arm seems to be in a particularly unusual position—the clearly visible gray of his suit coat indicating that his right arm and elbow have been raised at least to the level of his chin. (pp. 410-411)
Of course, we learned many years ago that the WC's own experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205 ("Memorandum for the Record: Conference of April 14, 1964, to Determine Which Frames in the Zapruder Movies Show the Impact of the First and Second Bullets," written by WC attorney Melvin Eisenberg, 4/22/64, p. 1).
Needless to say, the pre-Z207 reaction and the Z226-232 reaction destroy any version of the SBT, especially the latest concoction, i.e., the Z224 SBT.
Another key fact about the pre-Z190 hit is that it occurred during the timeframe when the sixth-floor gunman's view of the limousine would have been obstructed the intervening oak tree on the north side of Elm Street. This is one reason that JFK's pre-Z207 reaction generated considerable debate among the HSCA PEP members. Nevertheless, 12 of the 17 PEP members voted to acknowledge the reaction.
And we haven't even mentioned the fact that Jackie clearly starts to notice JFK's reaction before she disappears behind the road sign, and that she is staring intently at him when she reemerges into view in Z222. To all but those who are pathologically committed to defending the SBT, this proves that Jackie noticed something was wrong with JFK before Z207 and long before JFK was jolted forward in Z226.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 04:44:38 PM
Not only isn't the SBT a "silly myth", it's almost certainly a rock-solid FACT. And the following GIF clip, which shows JFK & Connally raising their right arms at the exact same instant, goes a long way toward proving it's a fact:
More SBT Proof: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html
Also....
I wonder what the odds are of the Warren Commission being able to re-create such a nearly perfect SBT demonstration (via CE903, below) and yet NOT have such a demonstration represent the truth of what actually happened? I wouldn't want to take those odds to Vegas if I was an anti-SBT conspiracy believer. And yet I'm supposed to believe the CTers who tell me that two (or probably THREE) different bullets lined themselves up beautifully so that Arlen Specter could later present this impressive "one bullet" exhibit to the world. Talk about incredibly good luck for Mr. Specter & Company! ....
Not only isn't the SBT a "silly myth", it's almost certainly a rock-solid FACT. And the following GIF clip, which shows JFK & Connally raising their right arms at the exact same instant, goes a long way toward proving it's a fact:
This is abject nonsense. Did you even bother to read the OP? JFK starts raising his right arm long before Connally does. JFK's waving motion freezes by no later than Z200 as he starts to bring both hands inward and upward toward his throat. He's in the process of doing this when he disappears from view in Z207. This is long before Connally starts to raise his arm, and this is even longer before Connally's right shoulder is slammed downward in Z238.
I notice you said nothing about JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, the main subject of the OP.
I also notice you said nothing about the fact that the HSCA PEP determined that JFK was hit at or before Z190.
I also notice you said nothing about Jackie's pre-Z207 reaction and her Z222-223 reaction, which undeniably prove that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207. Poof, on that basis alone your absurd Z224 SBT collapses.
Did you miss the news that the HSCA FPP determined that the back wound was below the throat wound, that the bullet struck the back at an upward angle, and that the tunneling inside the wound indicated that the bullet traveled upward after it entered the back? The HSCA FPP noted that "the wound beneath the skin appears to be tunneled from below upward" (7 HSCA 87). HSCA FPP Figure 12 shows the back wound slightly below the throat wound (7 HSCA 100). The upward-trajectory finding confirmed the 1975 finding of Dr. Werner Spitz of the Rockefeller Commission’s medical panel:
-------------------------------------------------------- There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf (https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)) --------------------------------------------------------
I wonder what the odds are of the Warren Commission being able to re-create such a nearly perfect SBT demonstration (via CE903, below) and yet NOT have such a demonstration represent the truth of what actually happened? I wouldn't want to take those odds to Vegas if I was an anti-SBT conspiracy believer. And yet I'm supposed to believe the CTers who tell me that two (or probably THREE) different bullets lined themselves up beautifully so that Arlen Specter could later present this impressive "one bullet" exhibit to the world. Talk about incredibly good luck for Mr. Specter & Company! ....
A "nearly perfect" SBT demonstration, huh?! I guess you didn't notice that Specter has the rod at a level on the back that is far below the stand-in's collar and far below the WC's location for the back wound? The WC's Rydberg drawing has the wound on the neck and above the throat wound (CE 385). I guess you also didn't notice that Specter has the bullet exiting at the bottom of the stand-in's tie knot?
I find your appeal to Specter's demonstration in CE 903 curious, because I've had many WC apologists tell me that his demonstration was wrong because he put the back wound too low. You guys need to get your story straight.
I take it you are unaware of the recent 3D laser analysis of the SBT done by the forensic engineering firm Knott Laboratory, the first analysis of its kind ever done of the SBT? Knott Lab's 3D analysis proves that the SBT is impossible. Here's an article about Knott Lab's historic analysis:
Here's a 24-minute podcast interview with Knott Lab CEO and Principal Engineer Stanley Stoll in which he explains the Knott 3D laser analysis and shows clips based on the digital reconstruction from the 3D laser data:
FYI, the Knott Lab engineers placed the JFK and JBC figures after creating a digital twin of Dealey Plaza and then using AI-assisted photogrammetric analysis of the Zapruder film, photos of the limo, and various other photos to place the figures in the limousine. They made the digital twin of the plaza by doing an exhaustive laser survey of the plaza, collecting millions of data points to enable a digital 3D recreation of the plaza that was an exact duplicate of the plaza in every aspect. After making the digital twin, they used photogrammetric analysis to place the Kennedy and Connally figures in the limousine (as well as to place the limousine in the correct position on Elm Street).
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM
JFK isn't "reacting" at all prior to Z226. The HSCA's "Z190" SBT timeline is total nonsense and totally wrong. President Kennedy's right hand is still being LOWERED between Z224 and 225:
Connally's and Kennedy's right arms are then simultaneously moving upward between 225 and 226. And Connally was struck in his RIGHT wrist during the shooting. Just a coincidence? If so, what's causing this rapid up-then-down movement of the exact same arm/wrist that was wounded by a bullet?
CTers have come up with all kinds of lame-ass excuses to explain away all of the many things we see going on with Governor Connally in Zapruder frames 224 to 230 [GO HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html) to see about a dozen such excuses], but sensible people can easily see through the B.S. and constant denial being exhibited by the conspiracy theorists.
Re: the HSCA's absurd "11-degree upward angle" of the bullet path through JFK's upper back and neck....
Not only isn't the SBT a "silly myth", it's almost certainly a rock-solid FACT.
Almost certainly? Really?
When you are not even sure enough to leave "almost" out and the matter is still open to discussion and interpretation of a few video images, you can not call it "a rock-solid FACT"
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 07:05:14 PM
When you are not even sure enough to leave "almost" out and the matter is still open to discussion and interpretation of a few video images, you can not call it "a rock-solid FACT"
Don't I get even as much as half of a bonus point for my use of the word "almost"?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 26, 2024, 07:19:36 PM
This is silly denial of the obvious. I notice you ignored the point that we have known for years that even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205 ("Memorandum for the Record: Conference of April 14, 1964, to Determine Which Frames in the Zapruder Movies Show the Impact of the First and Second Bullets," written by WC attorney Melvin Eisenberg, 4/22/64, p. 1).
The HSCA's "Z190" SBT timeline is total nonsense and totally wrong.
Your comment is what is total nonsense and totally wrong. It is beyond me how you can say this stuff on a public board and still pretend to be any kind of serious researcher of the JFK case. You simply ignored the HSCA PEP's point that Willis slide 5 was snapped at Z202 in response to hearing a gunshot that hit Kennedy, which would put the shot at around Z184-190.
You also ignored the fact that Olson and Turner noted the same reactive motions before Z207 that the HSCA PEP noted, and that even the WC's experts recognized JFK's pre-207 reaction.
President Kennedy's right hand is still being LOWERED between Z224 and 225:
Uh, yeah, that's because his forearm motion is jerky as he is trying to bring his hands up to his throat. It is not one smooth upward motion--it is a halting, jerky motion because he's been injured and is feeling considerable pain.
And in Z224, his left arm, which had been lying comfortably at his side, is now elevated, is bent inward, and is nearly up to his throat. This fact alone destroys your silly Z224 SBT. There is no way this reaction could be in response to a Z224 hit. Humans can't react that quickly to a gunshot wound.
And in Z222, Jackie is staring intently at JFK. She begins to turn her head rapidly toward JFK at Z202, and she is still looking at him in Z222. Why? Obviously, because she has realized that something is wrong with her husband, and she clearly realizes this long before Z224.
Only people who are willing to deny reality and delude themselves will deny that these reactions self-evidently, undoubtedly, indisputably show that JFK was hit many frames before Z224.
Connally's and Kennedy's right arms are then simultaneously moving upward between 225 and 226. And Connally was struck in his RIGHT wrist during the shooting. Just a coincidence? If so, what's causing this rapid up-then-down movement of the exact same arm/wrist that was wounded by a bullet?
Yes, again, it is entirely a coincidence because JFK plainly and clearly begins to bring both of his hands up to his throat long before Z224. I know you can see these things, but you won't acknowledge them. And, once again, you simply ignored all the evidence I cited and merely repeated your claim.
I notice you seem to have a habit of repeating your arguments after you dismiss or ignore facts that refute them.
CTers have come up with all kinds of lame-ass excuses to explain away all of the many things we see going on with Governor Connally in Zapruder frames 224 to 230 [GO HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html) to see about a dozen such excuses], but sensible people can easily see through the B.S. and constant denial being exhibited by the conspiracy theorists.
Well, 2/3 to 3/4 of the Western world rejects your view of the assassination, so you might want to exercise just a tiny bit of caution and decorum in your verbiage instead of this overheated polemic.
Actually, CTers have offered a very sensible, plausible explanation for Connally's head turn and reaction in Z224-230, starting with the fact that Connally himself--you know, the guy who actually experienced the wounding--adamantly insisted that he was not hit before Z228, and that he chose Z234 as the frame of impact.
Connally himself also explained why he turns his head from right to left in Z224-230: because he has just finished trying to look at JFK in response to hearing a gunshot! This explains why he looks tense and stiff. He knew he had just heard a gunshot, so of course he became tense and stiff and had got a concerned look on his face.
But, according to you guys, by Z230 it has been six frames since Connally has had a bullet tear through his chest, shatter his right wrist, and penetrate into his thigh!
Incidentally, I notice that you again said nothing about JFK's dramatic Z226-232 forward-jolt reaction, which happens to be the subject of this thread. I notice you keep ignoring it. How do you explain Connally's lack of dramatic pre-Z238 reaction to Kennedy's being jolted sharply forward in Z226 twelve frames earlier?
Nothing in your blog article--not one word--addresses the evidence cited by the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel (FPP) and years earlier by Dr. Werner Spitz that the bullet entered at an upward angle and traveled upward inside the body. Allow me to again quote Dr. Spitz's 1975 finding when he served as a member of the Rockefeller Commission’s medical panel:
-------------------------------------------------------- There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf) --------------------------------------------------------
Can you cite a single medical expert who has disputed the HSCA FPP's evidence that the back-wound bullet penetrated at an upward angle and traveled upward within the body? A number of other medical experts have concurred with the FPP's finding, such as Dr. Mantik and Dr. Aguilar.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: David Von Pein on January 29, 2024, 10:49:06 PM
The VERY LOW position of both of JFK's hands at Z225 provides the virtual proof that Kennedy was not hit nearly as early as Z190:
From frame Z224 to Z225 Kennedy is lowering his right hand towards his chest which is starting to clench into a fist. The shadow on the back of his right hand in Z224 helps to indicate the orientation as his open hand begins to become a fist.
Then between Z225 to Z226 Kennedy swiftly raises his cupping right hand while attaining the resulting Thorburn position, towards his throat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L81Qchf0/225-226-Full.gif)
As the clip progresses, we see Kennedy's elbows shoot up and it's only then a concerned Jackie who while quickly glancing at the reacting Connally, places her hand on her husbands left elbow which proves that Kennedy was not hit earlier and thereafter Jackie realizes that in the previous couple of seconds something very drastic has just happened to the two men in the Limo.
With the benefit of these toggled frames we get to analyze with great precision these repeated movements. And I know that if Connally way back when he examined individual frames had this added degree of accuracy he would would heartily agree with this inescapable conclusion!
JohnM
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael Capasse on January 30, 2024, 03:07:48 AM
Shot 1: circa z133 (perhaps a fraction of a second before Zapruder recommenced filming) The shot that missed.
Shot 2: at z224 (The single-bullet fact)
Shot 3: at z313 (The headshot)
Verdict: Beyond all reasonable doubt and accepted as fact by rational-thinking individuals, Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin, and there was no conspiracy. Long live the Warren Commission and its conclusions; case closed.
Thumb1:
I looked at the shot jiggles at various point in the Zapruder Film and found that up to and including the headshot, Zapruder had 3 vertical jumps. And working backwards from the obvious headshot which confirmed the vertical jiggle a few frames later, next we have the SBF jiggle happening a few frames after Kennedy and Connally simultaneously react and then we come to the first jiggle which can be confirmed by Rosemary Willis hearing a gunshot and slowing down, and we also have the testimony from Connally that states he heard a gunshot and turned to look over his right shoulder. We can also see Kennedy's quick head snap to the right.
Zapruder also has some horizontal panning corrections which result in what appear to be horizontal jiggles but by studying the frames after the headshot and the SBF, we know how Zapruder reacted to the sounds of gunshots.
From frame Z224 to Z225 Kennedy is lowering his right hand towards his chest which is starting to clench into a fist. The shadow on the back of his right hand in Z224 helps to indicate the orientation as his open hand begins to become a fist.
You people are incredible. Dealing with your denials of readily observable facts is literally like dealing with members of a cult or with Flat Earth Society members.
You and David Von Pein simply ignored my points about JFK's pre-207 reaction, about the fact that JFK's upward hand movement is jerky--that it goes up and then down and then up again--and is not one smooth upward motion, about the Z207-223 movement of JFK's left arm that we see still in progress in Z224, and about Jackie's pre-Z224 reaction (which, as the HSCA PEP noted, begins before Z207).
You also ignored the fact that we now know that even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205 ("Memorandum for the Record: Conference of April 14, 1964, to Determine Which Frames in the Zapruder Movies Show the Impact of the First and Second Bullets," written by WC attorney Melvin Eisenberg, 4/22/64, p. 1).
You guys just brushed aside all these inconvenient facts and merely repeated your arguments.
Then between Z225 to Z226 Kennedy swiftly raises his cupping right hand while attaining the resulting Thorburn position, towards his throat.
Holy cow! The Thorburn position?! Did you really just repeat the Thorburn-position argument?! This is more embarrassing proof that you've never dared or bothered to read any serious research that challenges the lone-gunman theory.
The Thorburn-position nonsense is part of the quackery that John Lattimer fed to gullible WC apologists back in the 1970s. It was destroyed soon after Lattimer published it. Among other problems, Lattimer assumed that the back wound was as high as C6 (when in fact it was no higher than T1).
Even worse, Lattimer ignored the fact that Dr. Thorburn's patient, the one that Lattimer cited as an alleged example, was not even brought to him until four days after the injury. Dr. Thorburn never once claimed that this was an immediate reaction to a spinal injury.
Equally bad, Lattimer ignored the fact that Dr. Thorburn specified that his patient suffered a "complete transverse destruction of the spinal cord," but JFK suffered no such spinal injury.
Indeed, the SBT posits that the magic bullet somehow missed hitting the spinal cord. You see, if the bullet had even just nicked the spinal cord, it would have begun to pitch and yaw and thus could not have created a small, neat "exit" wound in the throat. This is why some WC apologists have produced bogus graphics with trajectory overlays that purport to show how the bullet supposedly could have avoided hitting the spine. (Dr. Mantik has proved with a CT scan overlay that the bullet could not have reached the throat without smashing through the spine.)
Worst of all, in Dr. Thorburn's own diagram of the Thorburn position, i.e., the diagram that Lattimer cited, the man's forearms are not bent inward; they are not on/near his chest and are nowhere near his throat--rather the man's arms are flexed outward with the elbows extended away from each side of the body and with the hands extended upward from each elbow and with the forearms bent upward. This bears no resemblance to the position of JFK's hands and arms in Z224-232. Have you ever even seen Thorburn's own diagram of the position?
You guys like to quote Pat Speer. Well, even Pat Speer admits that the Thorburn-position argument is absurd. I quote from Speer's online book:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ But Lattimer and Posner compounded Life's silliness by desperately trying to explain away what would have to be seen as an incredibly rapid reaction by Kennedy to the bullet striking him at frame 224. Yep, in a moment of profound weakness, they offered up that the bullet nicked Kennedy's spine, and caused him to assume “Thorburn’s Position,” which they claimed was an immediate locking of the arms. . . .
Thus, in 1993, the very next year, the ever-inventive Posner offered the single-assassin faithful the solution they'd been looking for, telling them on page 328 that a spinal injury to Kennedy's sixth cervical vertebra, as purported by Lattimer, would cause an "instantaneous reaction." On the next page he spelled out just how "instantaneous." He wrote: "Kennedy's Thorburn response, from spinal damage, at frames 226-227, came between one tenth to two tenths of a second after the bullet hit him, which translates to 1.8 to 3.66 Zapruder frames."
By pretending that Kennedy's reaction could have started as late as frame 227, and that it could have taken as little as one-tenth of a second, Posner was, not surprisingly, covering his pet assassination theory. If people said Kennedy first showed signs of being hit by 227, he could say the reaction took two-tenths of a second. If they said he first showed signs by 226 he could say it took one tenth of a second.
Posner failed to tell his readers that both the Warren Commission and HSCA concluded that Kennedy was clearly reacting to something before frame 226, and that both sides of the 1992 mock trial he cited throughout his book agreed that the reaction time would be at least two tenths of a second, and that the one tenth of a second reaction time he presented for his readers' consideration was something he just made up.
What we need to note here is that Lattimer and his devotee Posner, by pushing the "Thorburn theory," were simultaneously rejecting the conclusions of both the Warren Commission and HSCA that Kennedy was hit when he came out from behind the sign, and were instead pushing that Kennedy was not responding to a shot, but only waving, in frames 224 and 225 of the Zapruder film. And that's just plain silly.
Actually, Posner and the single-assassin community's propping up of Lattimer and his "Thorburn theory" to help sell the single-bullet theory is worse than their simply being silly. Lattimer's "Thorburn theory," holding that Kennedy's arms immediately locked into place after being hit, was, and is, a hoax. A careful viewing of the Zapruder film shows that although Kennedy’s elbows remain slightly bent after frame 224 for the phenomenal length of five seconds, his arms themselves are far from locked and drop almost immediately. Even more damaging, as discovered by Millicent Cranor and reported by Wallace Milam, the position described by Thorburn in the 1800's was not an immediate locking of the arms, but a position assumed over a couple of days as the afflicted patient sunk into paralysis and death. (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12thesingle-bulletfact (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12thesingle-bulletfact)) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read and educate yourself about the ludicrous Thorburn-position argument:
As the clip progresses, we see Kennedy's elbows shoot up and it's only then a concerned Jackie who while quickly glancing at the reacting Connally, places her hand on her husbands left elbow which proves that Kennedy was not hit earlier and thereafter Jackie realizes that in the previous couple of seconds something very drastic has just happened to the two men in the Limo.
With the benefit of these toggled frames we get to analyze with great precision these repeated movements. And I know that if Connally way back when he examined individual frames had this added degree of accuracy he would would heartily agree with this inescapable conclusion! JohnM
This is silly self-delusion and an amazing denial of visible reality. I mean, this is just crazy. As the HSCA PEP noted, by Z202-204 Jackie has made a sudden turn to her right to look at JFK, and she is still looking intently at him when she reemerges from behind the road sign in Z222. How can you deny these facts with a straight face?
At the very latest, Jackie's rightward head turn is obvious in Z206, and, again, she is still staring at JFK in Z222, obviously because she has already realized that something is wrong with JFK. I know you can see this. Anyone can. But you won't admit it because your theory says that JFK was not hit before Z224.
You guys also have to dance around the movement of JFK's left arm. Pre-Z207, his left arm is motionless and resting comfortably at his side, but barely 1 second later, in Z224, his left arm is now bent inward and his left hand is coming up toward his throat. I know you can see this. Anyone can. But you won't admit it because your theory says JFK was not hit before Z224, and there's no way he could have reacted with his left arm that quickly to a Z224 hit--in less than 56 thousandths of a second.
Finally, I notice that you are still ignoring the fact that JFK is suddenly jolted sharply forward starting in Z226. This is another fatal problem for the SBT because Connally's right shoulder is not slammed downward until Z238, not to mention that JFK begins to react to an earlier wounding starting no later than Z200 when he starts to whip his head to the left and suddenly freezes his waving motion and then his hand movements become irregular.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 30, 2024, 03:53:49 PM
...even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205
I'm struggling to see that in the Zapruder frames. Would you have frames or a gif that reveals that?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on January 30, 2024, 06:41:50 PM
...even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205
I'm struggling to see that in the Zapruder frames. Would you have frames or a gif that reveals that?
Regarding the jerkiness, just watch the film in slow motion (0.25 speed) and start at, say, Z185, and notice how his waving motion starts to freeze at around Z200.
Regarding the unusually high position of his right elbow in Z204-205, you can't see this? Just look at the still frames. It's pretty obvious that something odd is going on with his right elbow. That's not a natural position and is unlike his elbow's position up to that point.
The WC's experts saw these things. So did the HSCA PEP experts. So did Olson and Turner in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. So have a number of other private experts.
One of the most obvious Rosetta Stones that destroys the SBT is Jackie's self-evident reaction that starts in the Z190s and is impossible to miss by Z206, at the very latest. Starting in the Z190s, she suddenly snaps her head to the right and by Z202-204, no later than Z206, she has turned her head from left to right and is looking intently at JFK, and she is still looking straight at him in Z222. To all but the brainwashed and the blind, this is self-evident proof that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207 and before Z224.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 30, 2024, 08:47:28 PM
Regarding the jerkiness, just watch the film in slow motion (0.25 speed) and start at, say, Z185, and notice how his waving motion starts to freeze at around Z200.
Regarding the unusually high position of his right elbow in Z204-205, you can't see this? Just look at the still frames. It's pretty obvious that something odd is going on with his right elbow. That's not a natural position and is unlike his elbow's position up to that point.
The WC's experts saw these things. So did the HSCA PEP experts. So did Olson and Turner in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. So have a number of other private experts.
One of the most obvious Rosetta Stones that destroys the SBT is Jackie's self-evident reaction that starts in the Z190s and is impossible to miss by Z206, at the very latest. Starting in the Z190s, she suddenly snaps her head to the right and by Z202-204, no later than Z206, she has turned her head from left to right and is looking intently at JFK, and she is still looking straight at him in Z222. To all but the brainwashed and the blind, this is self-evident proof that she realized something was wrong with JFK before Z207 and before Z224.
Thanks, I got the frames from the photo gallery link. I don't see anything that proves an earlier shot. Kennedy's hand is high as he is waving to passers by. He holds that last high wave (nothing unusual about that) and appears to turn to Jackie. They could have been simply sharing a laugh about what they had seen or heard, to the right of the limo - "We love you Jackie!" - "Ha ha! D'ya hear that Jackie?". The first visual sign of an impact is just as they emerge from the sign.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: John Mytton on January 30, 2024, 09:14:09 PM
Thanks, I got the frames from the photo gallery link. I don't see anything that proves an earlier shot. Kennedy's hand is high as he is waving to passers by. He holds that last high wave (nothing unusual about that) and appears to turn to Jackie. They could have been simply sharing a laugh about what they had seen or heard, to the right of the limo - "We love you Jackie!" - "Ha ha! D'ya hear that Jackie?". The first visual sign of an impact is just as they emerge from the sign.
Thumb1:
Griffith is stuck in the last the Century and hasn't grasped the advancements of stabilization, and anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that Griffith claims he sees in the Zapruder Film because he is on record claiming that huge sections of the entire Film have been Faked, like his absurd analysis that Brehm's son shows movement that is impossible, and that's only the start of his long list of amateur observations!!
The Zapruder Film in this stabilized GIF from frame Z182 through to Z247 clearly shows nothing unusual about Kennedy waving as he disappears behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, but when he emerges both elbows suddenly and quite dramatically raise and at the same time Connally is violently reacting, to deny this simultaneous reaction to both Men being struck by CE399, is insane. And addressing Griffith's so called "Rosetta Stone" LOL, before they reach the sign, the entire occupants of the Limo are aware of the first gunshot, hence Jackie checking out the welfare of her husband but when JFK is actually hit, this is the point in time that Jackie reaches out to JFK and places her reassuring hand on his obviously just raised elbow.
Just before Kennedy goes behind the sign, his right Elbow can be seen casually resting on the side of the Limo and to claim that "It's pretty obvious that something odd is going on with his right elbow." is just another crazy ass amateur observation.
I picked out the two clearest Zapruder frames before the sign and the first Zapruder frame which partially obscures Kennedy's right elbow and I still can't see "something odd" with the movement of Kennedy's right elbow or arm!
That is an excellent post, John; tremendous analysis and graphics.
Rosemary Willis appears to be reacting to the first shot circa z142, evidenced by her rapid head turn to the right toward the Book Depository.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/50/f3/l6oCewFR_o.gif)
I think that maybe the light flesh tone on Rosemary's face was faded or by glare or had blurred to white for a frame or two in the Z140s, making it only seem she turned her head. If not, she managed to turn her head fully to her right and back again over two frames. (Cue Zapruder alterationist claim)
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on January 31, 2024, 01:50:25 AM
"....... and at the same time Connally is violently reacting....." = Total BS: Stop proffering your jaded opinion as if it were fact. It ain't. You guys have been on Tilt ever since Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE proved that the, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". Getta grip!
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: John Mytton on January 31, 2024, 02:41:17 AM
"....... and at the same time Connally is violently reacting....." = Total BS: Stop proffering your jaded opinion as if it were fact. It ain't. You guys have been on Tilt ever since Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE proved that the, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". Getta grip!
Not only does Connally show a violent reaction, the right side of Connally's jacket forcefully thrusts forward, you know the same jacket side which has a hole in it! Oops!
I think that maybe the light flesh tone on Rosemary's face was faded or by glare or had blurred to white for a frame or two in the Z140s, making it only seem she turned her head. If not, she managed to turn her head fully to her right and back again over two frames. (Cue Zapruder alterationist claim)
Not sure why a Running Kid that is wearing a hoody up over their ears would be proffered as an EARwitness. Probably says something about the weakness of the case.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on January 31, 2024, 04:24:26 PM
Paul McBrearty: Rosemary Willis appears to be reacting to the first shot circa z142, evidenced by her rapid head turn to the right toward the Book Depository.
...or her mother shouting "Rosemary!! Get back here!!"
When Rosemary Willis became an adult and was asked about her reaction in the Zapruder film, she said she stopped and turned because she heard a loud bang.
She begins to noticeably slow down between Z162 and Z174, and she is standing still by no later than Z187. "Circa Z142" seems a little bit early to me, though certainly not implausible. I think this shot was probably fired between Z145 and Z155.
Not only does Connally show a violent reaction, the right side of Connally's jacket forcefully thrusts forward, you know the same jacket side which has a hole in it! Oops! JohnM
This is timeworn, debunked nonsense. And this regurgitated nonsense doesn't even address JFK's and Jackie's pre-Z207 reactions, Jackie's Z222-224 reaction, JFK's being jolted forward in Z226, and the slamming down of Connally's right shoulder in Z238.
Connally's jacket is not "forcefully thrust forward" but bunches outward as a natural result of his turning his head and upper body. As Connally himself explained, in Z224 he is turning his head and upper body back to the left after having turned to the right to see try to see JFK, so of course the right side of his coat is going to bunch outward a bit as a result of his having turned sharply to his right. And note that the right side of his jacket is flat and normal again in Z228 because his shoulders are virtually parallel with the limo's roll bar.
And never mind that Connally himself--you know, the guy who actually experienced the wounding--said he was certain he was not hit before Z228, right? He said this after carefully studying high-quality color prints of the Zapruder frames with a high-powered magnification loupe. But, nah, never mind that, right? He was "mistaken," because you and other WC apologists know his reactions better than he did!
You people are just amazing in your refusal to acknowledge visible, observable reality because that reality destroys your theory of the shooting.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 31, 2024, 06:02:35 PM
When Rosemary Willis became an adult and was asked about her reaction in the Zapruder film, she said she stopped and turned because she heard a loud bang.
OK. Ta. Thumb1:
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 31, 2024, 06:36:12 PM
Willis gave more details in the story that can be read here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3899.msg154068.html#msg154068
She said she heard three shots and that all came from direction of the TSBD. But she insisted that "someone with a silencer" could have been the one who killed JFK and that "Oswald was up there as clear as could be. I think he was up there on purpose to make people think he was the one."
"Up there to make people think he was the one"? And he would do this why?
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on January 31, 2024, 06:48:22 PM
So, we have the shot heard by some people as the limo turned onto Elm + the shot that stopped Rosemary in her tracks. Two audible shots before the magic bullet.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 31, 2024, 08:30:43 PM
Thanks, Gerry. Look at this enhanced version of the Zapruder film depicting Rosemary Willis's slow-motion movements. As one can see, she turned her head toward the Texas School Book Depository, a movement which she commenced at approximately z142; her face is in shadow. In my opinion, it is evident from this video that at no time is "the light flesh tone on Rosemary's face faded or by glare or had blurred to white for a frame or two in the z140s." I also contend that Miss Willis is looking toward the Depository as early as circa z142, an action she undertook possibly in response to her hearing the first shot, which may have occurred a fraction of a second before z142. One must not overlook this action by Miss Willis with regard to the number and timing of shots. It is imperative from a historical point of view.
It's difficult for me to determine whether and when she turns her head to watch/see the limo as she's running and/or whether and when it's because of the gunshot. Wouldn't she stop when hearing the gunshot? But she's running (slowing down along the way) and turning her head at the same time.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on January 31, 2024, 09:37:15 PM
Pseudo Z105 (shot-1) to Z133 is 28 frames, which is 1.48 sec based on 27 frames (based on needing 1 frame to reach the ears). So, Willis would have had a voluntary reaction say at pseudo Z115 (ie 10 frames after shot-1)(well before Z133). And Willis would have had an involuntary startle reaction say at pseudo Z110 (ie 5 frames after shot-1).
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 01, 2024, 05:34:50 PM
Thanks, Jerry. Look at this enhanced version of the Zapruder film depicting Rosemary Willis's slow-motion movements. As one can see, she turned her head toward the Texas School Book Depository, a movement which she commenced at approximately z142; her face is in shadow. In my opinion, it is evident from this video that at no time is "the light flesh tone on Rosemary's face faded or by glare or had blurred to white for a frame or two in the z140s." I also contend that Miss Willis is looking toward the Depository as early as circa z142, an action she undertook possibly in response to her hearing the first shot, which may have occurred a fraction of a second before z142. One must not overlook this action by Miss Willis with regard to the number and timing of shots. It is imperative from a historical point of view.
The only way the video you referenced is "enhanced" is through extreme contrast and color shifts.
Title: Re: JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Post by: Royell Storing on February 01, 2024, 06:46:05 PM
Watched an old Jack White video on "You Tube" the other day. Jack had some screwy JFK Assassination ideas during his time, but on this video he made a solid but simple Z Film observation addressing this same segment of the film. He wondered why we see a Bee Hive of activity on the (S) side of Elm St, (Willis kid running/stopping, Old Man Willis stepping from Elm St back onto the curb, Bob Croft lowering his camera from his face, the Old Woman wildly waving her handkerchief at JFK, etc, but all the people stretching down the (N) side of Elm St are almost stock still throughout this same period of time. This is an extremely strange Z Film contrast.