JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on July 08, 2022, 05:51:30 AM
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I hadn't realized what a mealy mouth.. pencil neck ..backside covering flunkie JE Hoover really was.
Consider the content in page one above absolving his precious FBI from any responsibility for the assassination.
The Oswald case was one of many thousands...the FBI handled 636,371 investigations...
Exactly?
Then Hoover lays out a statement indicating every reason to make the Oswald case a priority--
A file was opened concerning Oswald at the time newspapers reported his defection to Russia in 1959
So the FBI got their information from the press? Also I thought Oswald had TRIED to defect to the Soviet Union.
He [Oswald] was considered a security risk in the event he returned..
Then that should have narrowed down those 636K+ investigations I would think.
We learned in 1960 that his mother was sending him money.
That right there was grounds for defrauding the government and lying on his military request for a hardship discharge.
Oswald was suppose to be supporting his mother!... He should have been extradited from the USSR and tried and sentenced in federal court!
Why did Hoover cover all this up?
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If you haven’t read Assignment: Oswald by James P. Hosty, you might want to consider it. By the way, Hosty did believe there was a cover-up.
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If you haven’t read Assignment: Oswald by James P. Hosty, you might want to consider it. By the way, Hosty did believe there was a cover-up.
Hosty's book, ASSIGNMENT OSWALD: Is primarily a self serving tale..... However, Hosty does reveal some startling information in the book. He confirms that Ruth Paine was a FBI Informant, who was spying on the Oswald's. ( Hoover thought that the Oswald's were Russian agents)
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Hosty's book, ASSIGNMENT OSWALD: Is primarily a self serving tale..... However, Hosty does reveal some startling information in the book. He confirms that Ruth Paine was a FBI Informant, who was spying on the Oswald's. ( Hoover thought that the Oswald's were Russian agents)
Really? ???
I read the book and didn’t see anything that even resembles your claim!
BS:
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Really? ???
I read the book and didn’t see anything that even resembles your claim!
BS:
Hosty and Ruth Paine and Marina discussed the interviews (two of them) in their WC testimony some 30+ years before the book came out (in 1996). And both Ruth and Marina informed a very angry Oswald about them.
Some "informant".
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Really? ???
I read the book and didn’t see anything that even resembles your claim!
BS:
Then you've read the book while not comprehending......
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Then you've read the book while not comprehending......
I’m quite perceptive, but don’t have ESP. ::)
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I’m quite perceptive, but don’t have ESP. ::)
Maybe you don't have ESP .....But you've certainly got LOB .... ( lack of brains) If you can't see that Ruth Paine was in FBI informant.
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Maybe you don't have ESP .....But you've certainly got LOB .... ( lack of brains) If you can't see that Ruth Paine was in FBI informant.
One thing that you certainly don’t have a lack of is imagination. You can make up whatever stories that you want to. And you can even believe that they are true if you so desire. But if you are expecting others to somehow automatically “see” these imaginary beliefs of yours, I think that you are going to be disappointed a lot.
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Ruth told the FBI about Oswald’s letter to the Soviet Embassy. Therefore she was an informant about that, at least.
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Ruth told the FBI about Oswald’s letter to the Soviet Embassy. Therefore she was an informant about that, at least.
John..... Ruth Paine didn't merely tell the FBI about Lee's letter to the Soviet Embassy.... She actually took Lee's rough, hand written draft out of the trash can where lee had tossed it, . and then she typed up the copy and called the FBI. Agent Hosty came to her house and talked to her and she gave him the original and the copy that she had typed.
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John..... Ruth Paine didn't merely tell the FBI about Lee's letter to the Soviet Embassy.... She actually took Lee's rough, hand written draft out of the trash can where lee had tossed it, . and then she typed up the copy and called the FBI. Agent Hosty came to her house and talked to her and she gave him the original and the copy that she had typed.
- The FBI was already aware, in October, of the Oswald -Soviet Embassy meeting in Mexico City.
- Hosty wrote that, on 11/22/63 shortly after the assassination, he saw a copy of the actual letter that was sent to the Soviet Embassy.
- Ruth Paine didn’t call the FBI to inform them of the handwritten draft of the letter. She brought it out when Hosty and his partner came to her house on 11/23 for an interview.
- Ruth had the phone number of LHO’s rooming house but didn’t give it to Hosty during his visits of 11/1 & 11/5.
- Ruth copied the draft of the letter more than a week before the assassination. But she didn’t give it to Hosty until after the assassination.
If Ruth was an informant for the FBI (she wasn’t) then she was a very ineffective one….
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- The FBI was already aware, in October, of the Oswald -Soviet Embassy meeting in Mexico City.
- Hosty wrote that, on 11/22/63 shortly after the assassination, he saw a copy of the actual letter that was sent to the Soviet Embassy.
- Ruth Paine didn’t call the FBI to inform them of the handwritten draft of the letter. She brought it out when Hosty and his partner came to her house on 11/23 for an interview.
- Ruth had the phone number of LHO’s rooming house but didn’t give it to Hosty during his visits of 11/1 & 11/5.
- Ruth copied the draft of the letter more than a week before the assassination. But she didn’t give it to Hosty until after the assassination.
If Ruth was an informant for the FBI (she wasn’t) then she was a very ineffective one….
That's correct. A member of the public who voluntarily provides a tip to law enforcement based on something they have observed (rather than being recruited by a law enforcement agency) is merely a good citizen. Even if by some pedantic interpretation she were to be deemed an "FBI informant" that is meaningless as to whether Oswald was the assassin. There is zero evidence that Paine was involved in any frame up of Oswald. In fact, very little of what Ruth Paine contributed lends itself to Oswald's guilt. She didn't, for example, confirm his ownership of a rifle, claim that Oswald had any animosity toward JFK, or claim that see saw him carrying a large package on the morning of the assassination. All obvious things that an "FBI informant" or anyone involved in the framing of Oswald could have done in her situation. Thus, it is moot from that perspective and interjected only by desperate contrarians attempting to suggest doubt by any means. Ruth Paine - Quaker housewife and part time "FBI informant"! Cue sinister music.
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- The FBI was already aware, in October, of the Oswald -Soviet Embassy meeting in Mexico City.
- Hosty wrote that, on 11/22/63 shortly after the assassination, he saw a copy of the actual letter that was sent to the Soviet Embassy.
- Ruth Paine didn’t call the FBI to inform them of the handwritten draft of the letter. She brought it out when Hosty and his partner came to her house on 11/23 for an interview.
- Ruth had the phone number of LHO’s rooming house but didn’t give it to Hosty during his visits of 11/1 & 11/5.
- Ruth copied the draft of the letter more than a week before the assassination. But she didn’t give it to Hosty until after the assassination.
If Ruth was an informant for the FBI (she wasn’t) then she was a very ineffective one….
Correct. She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination. And she told Oswald about the meetings. That angered him and he went to FBI headquarters to confront Hosty.
She and Michael testified that she showed him the letter and asked what they should do about it. He said it was nothing, that Oswald was bragging about his behavior, that he (and she) didn't think he actually went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. He had made it all up.
So she not only withheld this from Hosty, she told Oswald about the meetings. That's a pretty bad informant if you ask me. Besides, wasn't she a CIA agent?
From Michael Paine's testimony re the letter:
Mr. PAINE - Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she say?
Mr. PAINE - No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name. And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind....
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Comments welcome-----
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Information that was withheld from the Warren Commission, the press, and the American people.
You can bet your butt that the Soviets had it :-\
Of course...the lone gunman guys will claim it's a fake.
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Comments welcome-----
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Information that was withheld from the Warren Commission, the press, and the American people.
You can bet your butt that the Soviets had it :-\
Of course...the lone gunman guys will claim it's a fake.
:D
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_XISFkBdMmg/Uu6XWmRKe-I/AAAAAAAAxxw/X0XG8LAuRIs/s1600/RH-Excerpt-Regarding-Fake-Document-Dated-March-3-1964.png)
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A poster at alt.assassination.jfk (12-12-06) going by the name dfdean1 asked the National Archives about McCone-Rowley and received this response:
We appreciate your interest in the JFK Assassination Records Collection. Your request was forwarded to our office because we have custody of the JFK Assassination Records Collection. We have received several requests for information about the McCone/Rowley Memo in the past.
Our staff conducted an extensive search of the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection. In addition to searches on the JFK Database, we carried out physical searches of the files. The file series searched included Lee Harvey Oswald's 201 file; the CIA Miscellaneous File; the United States Secret Service's official case file on the assassination; the Russ Holmes Work File; and the Assassination Records Review Board's files related to the CIA. We were unable to locate a copy of, or any reference to, this document in the Collection.
If we may be of any further assistance, please feel free to contact our office directly at specialaccess_foia@nara.gov. .
Sincerely,
Heather MacRae
Archivist
Special Access & FOIA Staff
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Researcher Anthony Marsh on McCone-Rowley
posted 12-7-06 at alt.assassination.jfk
When I looked at it I knew instantly that it was a fake. How? It is not written in the proper format using the proper CIA style. One tip off is the marking "CO-2-34,030." That is actually from a Secret Service report. How would I know? Because I had obtained and used on my Web site some of the pages from that SS report, so the notation jumped out as a fabrication. What someone did was take a page from the SS report, maybe even downloaded it from my Web page, removed the original text and wrote their own. Also the wording is not how the CIA would word a document of that type at that time. They would not refer to Hoover by name or agencies by common names. Instead you would see code words like ODACID. You need to look at hundreds of thousands of genuine CIA documents as I have to develop a mental database of what genuine CIA documents look like. I have no doubt that the hoaxer really thought that something like that was said. I don't think the intent was like the other hoaxes to discredit all JFK assassination research. I think someone just assumed that he knew enough to create a realistic fake to incriminate the CIA.
JohnM
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Correct. She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination. And she told Oswald about the meetings. That angered him and he went to FBI headquarters to confront Hosty.
She and Michael testified that she showed him the letter and asked what they should do about it. He said it was nothing, that Oswald was bragging about his behavior, that he (and she) didn't think he actually went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. He had made it all up.
So she not only withheld this from Hosty, she told Oswald about the meetings. That's a pretty bad informant if you ask me. Besides, wasn't she a CIA agent?
From Michael Paine's testimony re the letter:
Mr. PAINE - Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she say?
Mr. PAINE - No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name. And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind....
he (and she) didn't think he actually went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. He had made it all up.
Yes indeed...That Lee Oswald had extra ordinary mental abilities....He could get The secretary at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City to believe he was there raising hell about a visa , when he never was there....ROTFLMAO....
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Correct. She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination. And she told Oswald about the meetings. That angered him and he went to FBI headquarters to confront Hosty.
She and Michael testified that she showed him the letter and asked what they should do about it. He said it was nothing, that Oswald was bragging about his behavior, that he (and she) didn't think he actually went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. He had made it all up.
So she not only withheld this from Hosty, she told Oswald about the meetings. That's a pretty bad informant if you ask me. Besides, wasn't she a CIA agent?
From Michael Paine's testimony re the letter:
Mr. PAINE - Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she say?
Mr. PAINE - No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name. And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind....
She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination.
That's not correct....Check again ..... See page 311 of the WR, and notice the date.....
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She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination.
That's not correct....Check again ..... See page 311 of the WR, and notice the date.....
If you are referring to the date of the typewritten letter (CE 15), November 9, 1963, that’s the date that it was written (typed). The date that the handwritten draft was given to Hosty was 11/23/63 (as Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” page 57. Since the assassination happened on 11/22/63, she gave Hosty the handwritten draft after the assassination. There are 12-days between the two dates in which she might have turned the draft of the letter over to the FBI. But she didn’t until the day after the assassination.
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Comments welcome-----
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Information that was withheld from the Warren Commission, the press, and the American people.
You can bet your butt that the Soviets had it :-\
Of course...the lone gunman guys will claim it's a fake.
Wow!....This is worth repeating.... Thanks, Jerry
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Ruth told the FBI about Oswald’s letter to the Soviet Embassy. Therefore she was an informant about that, at least.
Yes, , You're right, the FACT that Ruth Paine retrieved Lee's rough draft of the Russian Embassy letter from the waste basket and typed it up to give to FBI agent Hosty is confirmation that she was an informant.
One of the Loony LNer's thinks she was simply a good citizen..... But that's a very shallow and unreasonable view. Ruth Paine intruded into the Oswald's life in early 1963 and had far more than a passing interest in them......
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Yes, , You're right, the FACT that Ruth Paine retrieved Lee's rough draft of the Russian Embassy letter from the waste basket and typed it up to give to FBI agent Hosty is confirmation that she was an informant.
One of the Loony LNer's thinks she was simply a good citizen..... But that's a very shallow and unreasonable view. Ruth Paine intruded into the Oswald's life in early 1963 and had far more than a passing interest in them......
I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.
Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.
TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.
Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.
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I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.
Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.
TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.
Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.
Correct. At least according to her. In the Mallon book "Mrs. Paine's Garage", he has this account:
"The following morning, Sunday, she noted that he'd [Oswald] left out, in plain sight on her secretary desk, the handwritten draft he'd attempted to conceal while typing."
She said that she glanced at it, saw him mentioning visiting the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and that "the notorious FBI" was following him and was stunned. What is this all about? She said she thought he was coming "unglued", that the story was a lie, a fantasy. So she made a quick handwritten copy that she later showed Michael. He read the copy, thought it was odd, but was nothing to worry about. So she kept it until Hosty/FBI showed up and asked if she had any information about Oswald. Was she not to give this to him? Or what? How is this being an informant?
She did say in the book that she moved on about the matter after discussing the note with Michael by thinking that if Hosty showed up she could have showed him her copy and talked about. But he didn't so she kept it quiet. This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.
Paine said she always wondered two things: that is, if she had given Oswald's rooming house phone number to Hosty (she didn't: again, some informant) or if she had called Hosty up about the note whether either of those matters would have led to a confrontation between Oswald and the FBI that would have stopped the assassination. Given Oswald's emotional state at that time, at his anger at the FBI I think it's not a wild belief.
And to repeat: she told Oswald about the Hosty visits and what they discussed. Would an informant do something like that?
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Correct. At least according to her. In the Mallon book "Mrs. Paine's Garage", he has this account:
"The following morning, Sunday, she noted that he'd [Oswald] left out, in plain sight on her secretary desk, the handwritten draft he'd attempted to conceal while typing."
She said that she glanced at it, saw him mentioning visiting the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and that "the notorious FBI" was following him and was stunned. What is this all about? She said she thought he was coming "unglued", that the story was a lie, a fantasy. So she made a quick handwritten copy that she later showed Michael. He read the copy, thought it was odd, but was nothing to worry about. So she kept it until Hosty/FBI showed up and asked if she had any information about Oswald. Was she not to give this to him? Or what? How is this being an informant?
She did say in the book that she moved on about the matter after discussing the note with Michael by thinking that if Hosty showed up she could have showed him her copy and talked about. But he didn't so she kept it quiet. This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.
Paine said she always wondered two things: that is, if she had given Oswald's rooming house phone number to Hosty (she didn't: again, some informant) or if she had called Hosty up about the note whether either of those matters would have led to a confrontation between Oswald and the FBI that would have stopped the assassination. Given Oswald's emotional state at that time, at his anger at the FBI I think it's not a wild belief.
And to repeat: she told Oswald about the Hosty visits and what they discussed. Would an informant do something like that?
This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.
To me it is simply evidence that she tried to be helpful to everyone that she encountered. Whether it was Marina and the situations that she found herself in. Or, LHO looking for a job. Or, Parkland Hospital asking for blood donations. Or, Hosty performing his duties. I think that type of attitude is simply her nature.
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I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.
Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.
TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.
Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.
Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. LOL!
So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23?? WHY would she do that ?? She had copied the text and gave it to Hosty.....
You certainly are a naivete, and gullible sucker.
The reason that Hosty had called on Ruth Paine is because the FBI had lost track of Lee Oswald in Mexico City and they were trying to find him again. They knew that Marina was living in Ruth Paine's House in Irving, but they couldn't find Lee...... When Hosty talked to Ruth Paine he told her to try to find out where Lee Oswald was living. So when Lee came to Irving she tried to find out where he was staying so she could INFORM the FBI. (That's what informers do )
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Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. LOL!
So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23?? WHY would she do that ?? She had copied the text and gave it to Hosty.....
You certainly are a naivete, and gullible sucker.
The reason that Hosty had called on Ruth Paine is because the FBI had lost track of Lee Oswald in Mexico City and they were trying to find him again. They knew that Marina was living in Ruth Paine's House in Irving, but they couldn't find Lee...... When Hosty talked to Ruth Paine he told her to try to find out where Lee Oswald was living. So when Lee came to Irving she tried to find out where he was staying so she could INFORM the FBI. (That's what informers do )
So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23?? WHY would she do that ??
Yes, this is what she has said. And Hosty confirmed it in his book. Ruth is still around. You would either need to ask her why, or see if you can find something in the records regarding what she has said about her reasoning….
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The McCone memo in Reply #15 does not implicate the CIA in the assassination.
It would however implicate the CIA in the cover up.
Memorandums that were classified Top Secret most likely never saw the light of day.
Some documents were marked Secret for no apparent reason at all [like Mrs Roberts '1026 Beckley Oswald receipt']
Some goof ups were made accidentally available [like https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/jfk-assassination-files/jfk-files-j-edgar-hoover-said-public-must-believe-lee-n814881 ]
Do we actually think that Johnson/Hoover want that to be revealed?
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So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23?? WHY would she do that ??
Yes, this is what she has said. And Hosty confirmed it in his book. Ruth is still around. You would either need to ask her why, or see if you can find something in the records regarding what she has said about her reasoning….
I don't know how we got on to Ruth Paine here but it looks as though Mrs Paine did go out of her way to dig up stuff on Oswald and the 'Mexico trip'. -----
Mrs. PAINE - They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.
She didn't make a note on her calendar?
Mr. JENNER - Was that the first time?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things, that had happened.
Mr. JENNER - All right, give us them in sequence, please.
Mrs. PAINE - One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.
So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.
Mr. JENNER - It was a what?
Mrs. PAINE - It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an, FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.
My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.
Mr. JENNER - Was it inscribed on the bracelet?
Mrs. PAINE - It was inscribed, the name Marina.
"English money"?
"Buy tickets for bull fight" .... :D
None of these items were produced in evidence [at least that I've seen]
Once again...Marina played along---sort of.
Her 'bracelet' was too small and that offended her [she stated]
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The McCone memo in Reply #15 ....
Third paragraph mentions Hoover's aversion to the release of a memo from Warren De Brueys [N.O. FBI]
Which is probably--- https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32197130.pdf
Was also classified confidential.
Brings up one curious thought...If Oswald was so gung ho about the Cuban plight...Why didn't he maintain his Fair Play for Cuba activity in earnest when he resided in Dallas during '63?
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I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.
Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.
TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.
Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.
OMG!..... You're now citing "Mrs Paine's Garage!! Unfreaking believable!
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This is an interesting passage in the appendix of “Mrs. Paine’s Garage”. It says a lot about who Ruth Paine is.
Shortly after returning home from her appearance before Jim Garrison’s grand jury, Ruth wrote the New Orleans DA this letter (reproduced here exactly as originally written):
1201 Woodleigh
Irving, Texas 75060
April 20, 1968
Mr. Jim Garrison
District Attorney of Orleans Parish
Criminal Courts Building
2700 Tulane Avenue
New Orleans, Louisiana
Dear Jim Garrison:
I was much moved by the two days just spent in New Orleans. I had had no personal knowledge of you and only the most fragmentary and inaccurate information on the nature of your investigation of conspiracy. I was glad to discover that there are some fundamental ways in which I agree with the importance of your pursuit of information regarding a possible conspiracy. Most basic is the conviction that if our form of society is to survive we must create checks and balances on the burgeoning clandestine wing of our government called the CIA. (Or close it down.) Your charges are so sweeping and major that it would be national folly not to pursue the issue to see where truth lies. There can be no harm in such pursuit, it seems to me, unless innocent people suffer markedly as a result of it. The harm in our not pursuing truth regarding the questions you raise could be great indeed.
I was impressed, as many must be, by the sheer force of your personality. It would seem in the nature of things that people who agree with you would gather to you, and those who disagree would simply turn away. It has occurred to me that if I can be helpful to your search it is as a person who might raise doubts about your conclusions and data from a position basically sympathetic to your objectives. You don’t have many “middle-ground” people around you and are not likely to have. It is possible that this sort of “check and balance” on the probe itself would not be of interest to you, but my guess is that it would be.
If there are ways I can help I shall be glad. I was struck by your passionate concern for Man, and by the intense grief you feel over the loss of President Kennedy. I, too, feel that loss acutely. He was a most remarkable person, and extremely valuable to our country. Besides his charm and brilliance as a man he also was a president inoculated by the experience of the Bay of Pigs. He had taken the measure of the “expert advice” of generals (and the CIA) and had found it wanting. He was a man prepared to do his own thinking in a framework of the highest regard for man, for life and for civilization. For myself, I have given up wondering when the sharp sting of my grief over his loss will wane. I have concluded it never shall, and in that I found you kindred.
With highest regards, /s/
Ruth Mrs. Michael R. Paine
The respectful tone and cooperative manner here may seem to contradict the alarm that Ruth recalls experiencing in New Orleans (see pp. 130–133). But amidst the letter’s apparent deference (wise behavior for anyone around this particular prosecutor), Ruth indicates her awareness of the “sweeping” nature of Garrison’s charges and expresses a concern that “innocent people” may suffer. (Most citizens addressing a district attorney might take it for granted that he was trying not to trample over the innocent. Ruth seems to realize that this one needs to be reminded of that.) She tells Garrison, however delicately, that he is surrounded by yes-men—clearly the impression she got from visiting his office. She is offering to serve as a reality check to this man whose “sheer force of…personality” had, for sure, made an impression. Ruth’s negative view of the CIA is neither surprising nor terribly significant. In thinking about the agency, she had gone down the same road millions of liberals had found themselves traveling between ’63 and ’68; the dismay had nothing to do with her enmeshment in the assassination or any real expectation that the CIA would prove to have been involved in that crime. Ruth’s expression of agreement about the need for unflinching investigation of the president’s murder is consistent with the opinion she had held since the day it occurred. It’s important, above all, to remember that Ruth Paine was ultimately a thorn in Garrison’s side: less than a year after writing this letter she testified as a defense witness for Clay Shaw. Indeed, this letter resides amongst the papers of Edward Wegmann, Shaw’s attorney, in the National Archives. I am grateful to Patricia Lambert for bringing it to my attention.
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Of all the people who have been falsely accused and persecuted by CTers as being part of a conspiracy to kill the president, I feel most badly for Ruth Paine who became the poster person for "no good deed goes unpunished." It's also perplexing how quickly Marina Oswald turned on her after accepting her charity and favors for many months. A very shameful act. A lot of people owe Ruth Paine a big apology.
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A lot of people owe Ruth Paine a big apology.
Send her some flowers.
:D
I fail to see the relevance.... or in fact, any point at all in that post.
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
LEE HARVLY OSWALD
Commission Exhibit No . 833
COMMISSION EXHIBIT 833-Continued
WASHINGTON 25, D.C .
April 6, 1964
1 . ? Q... Was there any FBI interest in Oswald before
the Aril, 1960 FBI interviews of bIrs . Marguerite Oswald and Robert
Oswald? If so, what was the nature and extent of the interest? What
initiated the April, 1960 questioning of Airs . Oswald and Robert
Oswald?
A... Yes . The FBI's first interest in Lee Harvey
Oswald arose as a result of a "Washington Capital News Service"
release datelined October 31, 1959, at Moscow which announced that
Oswald a 20-year-old former United States .Marine, advised the United
Press International during his press conference in his room at the
t , 1etropole Hotel, Moscow, that }he had applied to renounce his American
citizenship and to become a Soviet citizen for "purely political
reasons ." He further announced that he would never return to the
United States .
We checked our records on October 31, 1959, and determined
that our files contained no information identifiable with Oswald
other than a service fingerprint card showing his enlistment in the
United States Marine Corps (US : :C) on October 24, 1956, at Dallas,
Texas . On November 2, 1959, we determined through liaison with
the United States Navy Departrment that the files of the Office of
Naval Intelligence (ONI) contained no record of Oswald .
The 17 page CE 833 Document-----I wonder who typed it up?----
https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_833.pdf