JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on January 15, 2020, 09:42:38 PM
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Brian Latell’s book: “Castro’s Secrets - Cuban Intelligence, The CIA, and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy” tells many details about the workings of the Cuban DIG and the events surrounding the assassination that I hadn’t seen before. He spells out a believable theory that has Castro knowing about LHO’s intentions to shoot JFK before it happened but remaining silent instead of warning the U.S. about it. An interesting book that, in my opinion, just might be true!
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Brian Latell’s book: “Castro’s Secrets - Cuban Intelligence, The CIA, and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy” tells many details about the workings of the Cuban DIG and the events surrounding the assassination that I hadn’t seen before. He spells out a believable theory that has Castro knowing about LHO’s intentions to shoot JFK before it happened but remaining silent instead of warning the U.S. about it. An interesting book that, in my opinion, just might be true!
Let's see if I understand this correctly.
The premise of this is that Castro somehow knew in advance about the so-called insignificant "lone nut" Oswald's intention to kill Kennedy.
With that in mind, I would like to have explained, first of all, how Castro could have possibly known that? Was he physic or telepathic? Think about it, how would Oswald even get on Castro's radar? For Castro to know it in advance, there needs to have been some sort of contact and communication, either direct or indirectly, between Castro and Oswald, in which Oswald somehow announced his intentions.
Secondly, how in the world could Castro have known in advance that Oswald wanted to kill Kennedy, when Oswald, on the one hand, couldn't have known that Kennedy was coming to Dallas until it was announced, only a few days earlier, and, on the other hand, there is no known evidence that even remotely shows that Oswald intended to kill Kennedy at another location than Dallas.
It simply doesn't add up, unless of course the real premise is that Castro orchestrated the whole thing and simply used Oswald (and perhaps others at other locations) as a pawn in his own game. But that would make it an actual conspiracy and not a silent one....
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Let's see if I understand this correctly.
The premise of this is that Castro somehow knew in advance about the so-called insignificant "lone nut" Oswald's intention to kill Kennedy.
With that in mind, I would like to have explained, first of all, how Castro could have possibly known that? Was he physic or telepathic? Think about it, how would Oswald even get on Castro's radar? For Castro to know it in advance, there needs to have been some sort of contact and communication, either direct or indirectly, between Castro and Oswald, in which Oswald somehow announced his intentions.
Secondly, how in the world could Castro have known in advance that Oswald wanted to kill Kennedy, when Oswald, on the one hand, couldn't have known that Kennedy was coming to Dallas until it was announced, only a few days earlier, and, on the other hand, there is no known evidence that even remotely shows that Oswald intended to kill Kennedy at another location than Dallas.
It simply doesn't add up, unless of course the real premise is that Castro orchestrated the whole thing and simply used Oswald (and perhaps others at other locations) as a pawn in his own game. But that would make it an actual conspiracy and not a silent one....
Secondly, how in the world could Castro have known in advance that Oswald wanted to kill Kennedy, when Oswald, on the one hand, couldn't have known that Kennedy was coming to Dallas until it was announced, only a few days earlier, and, on the other hand, there is no known evidence that even remotely shows that Oswald intended to kill Kennedy at another location than Dallas.
...Jack Childs’s Operation SOLO report to the FBI, and a second by the British journalist, about Oswald’s shouted threat to kill Kennedy... [as he angrily left the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City]
And, LHO had the phone number of Sylvia Duran in his pocket sized address book...
Once LHO had devised his plan, all he needed to do was pick up a pay phone and alert her... quite feasible...
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Secondly, how in the world could Castro have known in advance that Oswald wanted to kill Kennedy, when Oswald, on the one hand, couldn't have known that Kennedy was coming to Dallas until it was announced, only a few days earlier, and, on the other hand, there is no known evidence that even remotely shows that Oswald intended to kill Kennedy at another location than Dallas.
...Jack Childs’s Operation SOLO report to the FBI, and a second by the British journalist, about Oswald’s shouted threat to kill Kennedy... [as he angrily left the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City]
And, LHO had the phone number of Sylvia Duran in his pocket sized address book...
Once LHO had devised his plan, all he needed to do was pick up a pay phone and alert her... quite feasible...
An alleged shouted threat reported by people that were not there would, at best, be hearsay. I don't buy it. But even if it did happen, it still would indicate more a conspiracy, orchestrated by Castro, than it would fit with the alleged "lone nut" profile. What it, most certainly, doesn't do is provide anything solid for Castro to become aware of a credible plot against Kennedy by Oswald. Presidents get threatend all the time and most of the threats are never really carried out. History shows that those who kill a President are normally not in the habit of announcing it beforehand. In fact, when Oswald (if it was him) left the Cuban Consultate in Mexico he had no idea that Kennedy was coming to Dallas or that he [Oswald] would be there at the same time.
And, LHO had the phone number of Sylvia Duran in his pocket sized address book...
Once LHO had devised his plan, all he needed to do was pick up a pay phone and alert her... quite feasible...
There is nothing feasible about it. It is in fact an extreme stretch of the imagination. Why in the world would a lone nut even want to communicate his plan to kill Kennedy in advance to Duran? What is she to him? A handler of some kind or perhaps pipeline to Castro? Is that what you are thinking?
Your premise is apparently that, within maximum 72 hours prior to Kennedy's arrival in Dallas, this alleged lone nut actually decides to kill him and then greatly reduces his changes of success by phoning Sylvia Duran (who may have been, and probaby was, under US surveillance) and tell her about it in the hope that she somehow doesn't report it to authorities and instead relays the message to Castro (without the US intelligence agencies picking up on it), which of course would make the whole thing a conspiracy, in which at least Oswald, Duran and Castro were involved.
And for what gain? To impress Castro and force a permission to enter the country? How in the world would that even be remotely possible and/or credible. The LN premise is that Oswald did not expect to survive after the attack. So what would be the point to inform Castro? It doesn't add up, unless of course Castro was the one pulling the strings and needed to be reported back to.
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An alleged shouted threat reported by people that were not there would, at best, be hearsay. I don't buy it. But even if it did happen, it still would indicate more a conspiracy, orchestrated by Castro, than it would fit with the alleged "lone nut" profile. What it, most certainly, doesn't do is provide anything solid for Castro to become aware of a credible plot against Kennedy by Oswald. Presidents get threatend all the time and most of the threats are never really carried out. History shows that those who kill a President are normally not in the habit of announcing it beforehand. In fact, when Oswald (if it was him) left the Cuban Consultate in Mexico he had no idea that Kennedy was coming to Dallas or that he [Oswald] would be there at the same time.
And, LHO had the phone number of Sylvia Duran in his pocket sized address book...
Once LHO had devised his plan, all he needed to do was pick up a pay phone and alert her... quite feasible...
There is nothing feasible about it. It is in fact an extreme stretch of the imagination. Why in the world would a lone nut even want to communicate his plan to kill Kennedy in advance to Duran? What is she to him? A handler of some kind or perhaps pipeline to Castro? Is that what you are thinking?
Your premise is apparently that, within maximum 72 hours prior to Kennedy's arrival in Dallas, this alleged lone nut actually decides to kill him and then greatly reduces his changes of success by phoning Sylvia Duran (who may have been, and probaby was, under US surveillance) and tell her about it in the hope that she somehow doesn't report it to authorities and instead relays the message to Castro (without the US intelligence agencies picking up on it), which of course would make the whole thing a conspiracy, in which at least Oswald, Duran and Castro were involved.
And for what gain? To impress Castro and force a permission to enter the country? How in the world would that even be remotely possible and/or credible. The LN premise is that Oswald did not expect to survive after the attack. So what would be the point to inform Castro? It doesn't add up, unless of course Castro was the one pulling the strings and needed to be reported back to.
Your question was “ ...how Castro could have possibly known that?”
I gave you a possibility. It wasn’t impossible, as you implied.
The Cuban spy (Aspillaga) who defected was manning the radio equipment and searching for CIA activity, towards Miami and Washington DC, (as usual) on the morning of 11/22/63. At approximately 9:00 to 9:30 that morning, he was directed to stop all that and turn his antennas toward Texas and report anything unusual. His reports normally went straight to Castro. He therefore believes Castro knew about LHO’s threat. Aspillaga worked for Cuban intelligence for 35-years before he defected. Everything else he has divulged has checked out as correct. He was also the first one to tell about Castro’s Armageddon letter during the height of the Cuban missile crisis.
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Let's see if I understand this correctly.
The premise of this is that Castro somehow knew in advance about the so-called insignificant "lone nut" Oswald's intention to kill Kennedy.
With that in mind, I would like to have explained, first of all, how Castro could have possibly known that? Was he physic or telepathic? Think about it, how would Oswald even get on Castro's radar? For Castro to know it in advance, there needs to have been some sort of contact and communication, either direct or indirectly, between Castro and Oswald, in which Oswald somehow announced his intentions.
Secondly, how in the world could Castro have known in advance that Oswald wanted to kill Kennedy, when Oswald, on the one hand, couldn't have known that Kennedy was coming to Dallas until it was announced, only a few days earlier, and, on the other hand, there is no known evidence that even remotely shows that Oswald intended to kill Kennedy at another location than Dallas.
It simply doesn't add up, unless of course the real premise is that Castro orchestrated the whole thing and simply used Oswald (and perhaps others at other locations) as a pawn in his own game. But that would make it an actual conspiracy and not a silent one....
If Ion Pacepa is correct when he says Oswald was trained/programmed in the USSR and that Khrushchev was later unable to call Oswald off the "hit," Castro, whose DGI worked hand-in-glove with the KGB, may have known about it and, being pissed at Khruschev for withdrawing the missiles from Cuba, may have decided to remain quiet and let it "play out".
Castro, knowing that nobody nukes anybody anymore (out of fear that they themselves will be nuked in retaliation), knew that WW III was unlikely to break out if the assassination was traced back to Moscow, and that the assassination of his nemesis, charismatic anti-Communist JFK, would only serve to advance the Hegellian-Marxst "Dialectic" by making Lyndon Baines Johnson POTUS.
-- MWT ;)
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We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans with the objective of gaining entry into Cuba. It is plausible that he mentioned his attempt on Walker while in Mexico City as part of that process. Or made some reference to a willingness to commit violence on behalf of Castro. The Cubans probably thought he was a nut. They would not have informed Castro about some nut who showed up in Mexico City.
After the fact, the Cubans might have believed Oswald was some type of CIA asset who was sent to implicate them in the assassination. So they cover up whatever threat Oswald made. And it could not have related to JFK since Oswald would have had no idea at that time that he would ever have an opportunity to assassinate him. It would have been more general such as a promise to commit some bold or violent act. Later on, once the incident could no longer be used as a pretext for war, Castro would have used the incident to enhance his reputation as someone with knowledge about the JFK assassination.
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We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans with the objective of gaining entry into Cuba. It is plausible that he mentioned his attempt on Walker while in Mexico City as part of that process. Or made some reference to a willingness to commit violence on behalf of Castro. The Cubans probably thought he was a nut. They would not have informed Castro about some nut who showed up in Mexico City.
After the fact, the Cubans might have believed Oswald was some type of CIA asset who was sent to implicate them in the assassination. So they cover up whatever threat Oswald made. And it could not have related to JFK since Oswald would have had no idea at that time that he would ever have an opportunity to assassinate him. It would have been more general such as a promise to commit some bold or violent act. Later on, once the incident could no longer be used as a pretext for war, Castro would have used the incident to enhance his reputation as someone with knowledge about the JFK assassination.
Exactly the points I was making. Charles however seems to feel that Oswald, after deciding to kill Kennedy, picked up the phone and called Sylvia Duran, who then in turn called Castro to let him know. And all this within maximum 72 hours prior to the assassination and at an enormous risk (for Oswald) of being detected by all the surveillance activity of the CIA and others.... Although not completely impossible, it's a highly unlikely scenario at best.
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Your question was “ ...how Castro could have possibly known that?”
I gave you a possibility. It wasn’t impossible, as you implied.
The Cuban spy (Aspillaga) who defected was manning the radio equipment and searching for CIA activity, towards Miami and Washington DC, (as usual) on the morning of 11/22/63. At approximately 9:00 to 9:30 that morning, he was directed to stop all that and turn his antennas toward Texas and report anything unusual. His reports normally went straight to Castro. He therefore believes Castro knew about LHO’s threat. Aspillaga worked for Cuban intelligence for 35-years before he defected. Everything else he has divulged has checked out as correct. He was also the first one to tell about Castro’s Armageddon letter during the height of the Cuban missile crisis.
I gave you a possibility. It wasn’t impossible, as you implied.
I never said or implied that it was impossible. I said that there was nothing feasible about it and that it was unlikely.
The story about Aspillaga doesn't make much sense. Oswald's alleged phone contact, Sylvia Duran was in Mexico, so what significance does it have that Aspillage turned his antennas toward Texas and heard nothing unusual? Also, Aspillage can believe what he wants, but that still does not mean that Castro actually knew about the assassination plan in advance. But if he did, and he heard it from Duran, they would both be part of the conspiracy, simply by not disclosing the information to the authorities.
If you know in advance that a crime is going to be committed and you do nothing, you automatically become complicit in that crime. So, are you now moving away from the LN scenario to a conspiracy?
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Exactly the points I was making. Charles however seems to feel that Oswald, after deciding to kill Kennedy, picked up the phone and called Sylvia Duran, who then in turn called Castro to let him know. And all this within maximum 72 hours prior to the assassination and at an enormous risk (for Oswald) of being detected by all the surveillance activity of the CIA and others.... Although not completely impossible, it's a highly unlikely scenario at best.
Charles however seems to feel that Oswald, after deciding to kill Kennedy, picked up the phone and called Sylvia Duran, who then in turn called Castro to let him know
Again, you asked how it could be possible. I gave you a possibility. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I believe that that is for certain what happened. There are other possibilities.
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Charles however seems to feel that Oswald, after deciding to kill Kennedy, picked up the phone and called Sylvia Duran, who then in turn called Castro to let him know
Again, you asked how it could be possible. I gave you a possibility. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I believe that that is for certain what happened. There are other possibilities.
And what are those other possibilities?
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I gave you a possibility. It wasn’t impossible, as you implied.
I never said or implied that it was impossible. I said that there was nothing feasible about it and that it was unlikely.
The story about Aspillaga doesn't make much sense. Oswald's alleged phone contact, Sylvia Duran was in Mexico, so what significance does it have that Aspillage turned his antennas toward Texas and heard nothing unusual? Also, Aspillage can believe what he wants, but that still does not mean that Castro actually knew about the assassination plan in advance. But if he did, and he heard it from Duran, they would both be part of the conspiracy, simply by not disclosing the information to the authorities.
If you know in advance that a crime is going to be committed and you do nothing, you automatically become complicit in that crime. So, are you now moving away from the LN scenario to a conspiracy?
The evidence suggests that LHO did it without help from anyone. I still believe that. However, I do believe that LHO could have alerted the Cubans after he planned it. However, it’s also feasible that Cuban intelligence was simply keeping track of LHO and knew that he was in Dallas at the TSBD overlooking the motorcade. And that Castro simply wanted his radio equipment monitoring Texas to help keep track of what he thought might happen.
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We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans with the objective of gaining entry into Cuba. It is plausible that he mentioned his attempt on Walker while in Mexico City as part of that process.
If that's so plausible, why did nobody report him mentioning anything of the kind?
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...There is nothing feasible about it. It is in fact an extreme stretch of the imagination...
Dictionary Definition of feasible:
Feasible: possible to do easily or conveniently.
There is nothing difficult or inconvenient about the possibility of LHO simply picking up a pay phone and alerting Duran. Pay phones were plentiful and he already had her number.
LHO had already reportedly tried to impress them with his past experiences in Russia and other items that he thought they would appreciate. The media was constantly covering the antagonistic acts of both Castro and JFK. LHO was interested in these items and would likely have been of the opinion that Castro wouldn’t mind having JFK gone. And it is feasible that the Cuban intelligence agents actually encouraged LHO in this regard.
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Castro wanted to kill Kennedy, so he could then deal with LBJ, because...?
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Castro wanted to kill Kennedy, so he could then deal with LBJ, because...?
I do not believe that Castro wanted to kill JFK if he could be legitimately blamed for it. But I do believe that he wouldn’t have objected to, or try to stop LHO from killing JFK (provided no blame would be conclusively pointed at Cuba).
According to Brian Latell, Castro knew that the Kennedy brothers were trying to assassinate him, then overthrow the communist government, through the CIA covert activity.
I believe that Castro probably thought if JFK was killed, and blame directed elsewhere, that LBJ most likely wouldn’t continue to pursue the assassination attempts on Castro.
Alexander Haig wrote that Johnson “believed until the day he died that Fidel Castro was behind the assassination.” Maybe LBJ decided he didn’t want to have a similar fate if he could avoid it...
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The evidence suggests that LHO did it without help from anyone. I still believe that. However, I do believe that LHO could have alerted the Cubans after he planned it. However, it’s also feasible that Cuban intelligence was simply keeping track of LHO and knew that he was in Dallas at the TSBD overlooking the motorcade. And that Castro simply wanted his radio equipment monitoring Texas to help keep track of what he thought might happen.
The evidence suggests that LHO did it without help from anyone. I still believe that. However, I do believe that LHO could have alerted the Cubans after he planned it.
You are contradicting yourself here. Of course the "lone nut" shooter would do the shooting by himself, but when you have more than one person who knows about the plan, without doing anything with that information, than you move from a "lone nut" shooter to a conspiracy.
However, it’s also feasible that Cuban intelligence was simply keeping track of LHO and knew that he was in Dallas at the TSBD overlooking the motorcade.
Why in the world would Cuban intelligence have any interest in Oswald? But even if they did and they knew he was in Dallas, worked at the TSBD and that the motorcade would pass by there, how does that get you to knowing in advance that Oswald was going to kill Kennedy? There are, to say the least, a few dots missing here. It simply doesn't add up.
And that Castro simply wanted his radio equipment monitoring Texas to help keep track of what he thought might happen.
So, Castro has some intelligence source that is keeping an eye on Oswald to the extend that they know where his lives and works, yet in order to find out what might happen he needs an antenna pointed at Texas to monitor radio traffic..... Are you going James Bond on us now?
Dictionary Definition of feasible:
Feasible: possible to do easily or conveniently.
There is nothing difficult or inconvenient about the possibility of LHO simply picking up a pay phone and alerting Duran. Pay phones were plentiful and he already had her number.
LHO had already reportedly tried to impress them with his past experiences in Russia and other items that he thought they would appreciate. The media was constantly covering the antagonistic acts of both Castro and JFK. LHO was interested in these items and would likely have been of the opinion that Castro wouldn't mind having JFK gone. And it is feasible that the Cuban intelligence agents actually encouraged LHO in this regard.
There is nothing difficult or inconvenient about the possibility of LHO simply picking up a pay phone and alerting Duran. Pay phones were plentiful and he already had her number.
True, picking up a phone and making a call is easy. In this case it is IMO highly unlikely and unprobable given the risks involved with such a call.
LHO had already reportedly tried to impress them with his past experiences in Russia and other items that he thought they would appreciate. The media was constantly covering the antagonistic acts of both Castro and JFK. LHO was interested in these items and would likely have been of the opinion that Castro wouldn't mind having JFK gone.
What is the point of trying to impress the Cubans with the murder of a President when the chances of getting away and surviving are minimal? I suppose "Castro was impressed and grateful" engraved on his tombstone was just about the only thing he could expect.
And it is feasible that the Cuban intelligence agents actually encouraged LHO in this regard.
Which, in fact, would make it a conspiracy involving Castro....
I really don't understand where you are going with this. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too, but either Oswald was a lone nut in your mind or he was part of some conspiracy. You can't have it both ways.
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We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans with the objective of gaining entry into Cuba. It is plausible that he mentioned his attempt on Walker while in Mexico City as part of that process. Or made some reference to a willingness to commit violence on behalf of Castro. The Cubans probably thought he was a nut. They would not have informed Castro about some nut who showed up in Mexico City.
After the fact, the Cubans might have believed Oswald was some type of CIA asset who was sent to implicate them in the assassination. So they cover up whatever threat Oswald made. And it could not have related to JFK since Oswald would have had no idea at that time that he would ever have an opportunity to assassinate him. It would have been more general such as a promise to commit some bold or violent act. Later on, once the incident could no longer be used as a pretext for war, Castro would have used the incident to enhance his reputation as someone with knowledge about the JFK assassination.
Two things (at least) are puzzling to me about the Mexico City/Cuban consulate matter:
(1) Eusebio Azcue, the Cuban consul at the time of Oswald's visit, said (as did two others: Duran, Mirabal) that he threw Oswald out of the consulate with the admonition that "the Revolution doesn't need people like you." This was because Oswald had been demanding and rude with his request for a transit visa.
But the Cubans later granted Oswald a transit visa. Yes, it was contingent (still) on his showing a Soviet visa. So, if they believed Oswald was either some sort of provocateur or a nut or someone they didn't want, why grant him a visa? He's a nut, a danger, throw his request away. Don't process it.
(2) Duran said she only met Oswald that Friday afternoon, September 27, the day he visited the consulate in search of that transit visa. However, CIA recordings indicate that she called the Soviet Embassy on Saturday and then gave the phone to Oswald who continued the conversation. He then proceeded to the Soviet Embassy where he had that strange meeting with the Soviet Embassy/KGB officials where he pulled out his revolver and was acting, according to the Soviets, in a hysterical manner. So why did she (apparently) lie about meeting him on Saturday?
And as a side note: Duran testified that she gave her phone number to Oswald. The number was found among his possessions. So if he didn't go there how did he get her number?
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I do not believe that Castro wanted to kill JFK if he could be legitimately blamed for it. But I do believe that he wouldn’t have objected to, or try to stop LHO from killing JFK (provided no blame would be conclusively pointed at Cuba).
According to Brian Latell, Castro knew that the Kennedy brothers were trying to assassinate him, then overthrow the communist government, through the CIA covert activity.
I believe that Castro probably thought if JFK was killed, and blame directed elsewhere, that LBJ most likely wouldn’t continue to pursue the assassination attempts on Castro.
Alexander Haig wrote that Johnson “believed until the day he died that Fidel Castro was behind the assassination.” Maybe LBJ decided he didn’t want to have a similar fate if he could avoid it...
Castro knew that the Kennedy brothers were trying to assassinate him, then overthrow the communist government, through the CIA covert activity.
Castro had heard that the CIA was plotting to assassinate him... ( He erroneously thought that JFK controlled the CIA ) Castro said that if JFK was plotting his murder then they themselves should expect retribution in kind. Castro's remarks were printed in US newspapers.....but behind the scenes, and secretly, JFK was negotiating with Kruechev, and trying to open talks with Castro. When Castro heard that JFK had been assassinated he became very upset... Saying that this was very bad and he feared that he would be blamed.
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Brian Latell’s book: “Castro’s Secrets - Cuban Intelligence, The CIA, and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy” tells many details about the workings of the Cuban DIG and the events surrounding the assassination that I hadn’t seen before. He spells out a believable theory that has Castro knowing about LHO’s intentions to shoot JFK before it happened but remaining silent instead of warning the U.S. about it. An interesting book that, in my opinion, just might be true!
As you point out, Latell doesn't believe Oswald acted on behalf of Castro or on his orders but that Castro may have known that something was going to happen in Dallas because Oswald had made threats against JFK at the Cuban consulate. But that's a pretty far reach; how would Castro even know Oswald was in Dallas that day? There's no evidence of any communications between him and Cuban officials. Where's the evidence for this connection?
In any case, we do have that interesting "exchange" of threats between JFK and Castro. Castro made his on September 27, 1963 at the Brazilian Embassy in Havana. There he told an AP reporter, Dan Harker, that assassination plots against him might backfire and "[the plotters] will not themselves be safe." Harker later explained that Castro specifically singled him out for the remarks and that it was clear that Castro's threat was against US leaders.
Harker: "I never misunderstood Castro. There was absolutely no hint that he was referring to the Cuban exiles. Spanish is my first language, as a Latin-American born in Columbia, Venezuela. That's why the AP sent me to Havana in the first place, because I was fluent in both Spanish and English.
Castro chose me for the interview because I had interviewed him two months earlier, and he was impressed with the4 accuracy of my account. After the September conversation, I stayed in Havana three more years and never once
did he complain that I had misrepresented him. In fact, all our wire transmissions were monitored by the Castro government, which had to approve the material before it was sent out.
The interview [with Castro] lasted three hours. We stood the entire time. Castro was not mad, merely colloquial."
And when Castro was asked about the above comment by the HSCA he said that his warning had nothing to do with the
exiles, but with it was a "warning that we know" about the plots, and they just might boomerang on the authors of the plots."
Then four days before the assassination JFK said this: "It is important to restate what now divides Cuba from my country and from all of the American countries. It is the fact that a small band of conspirators has stripped the Cuban people of their freedom and handed over the independence and sovereignty of the Cuban nation to forces beyond the hemisphere.
They have made Cuba a victim of foreign imperialism, an instrument of the policy of others, a weapon in an effort dictated by external powers to subver the other American Republics. This, and this alone, divides us. As long as this is true nothing is possible. Without it everything is possible. Once this barrier is removed, we will be ready and anxious to work with the Cuban people in pursuit of those progressive goals which, a few short years ago, stirred their hearts..."
So we do have as a backdrop these interesting tit-for-tat implicit threats by Castro and JFK against each other. Did Oswald read these? Was he aware of them? I think so. But did they motivate him to act in response?
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As you point out, Latell doesn't believe Oswald acted on behalf of Castro or on his orders but that Castro may have known that something was going to happen in Dallas because Oswald had made threats against JFK at the Cuban consulate. But that's a pretty far reach; how would Castro even know Oswald was in Dallas that day? There's no evidence of any communications between him and Cuban officials. Where's the evidence for this connection?
In any case, we do have that interesting "exchange" of threats between JFK and Castro. Castro made his on September 27, 1963 at the Brazilian Embassy in Havana. There he told an AP reporter, Dan Harker, that assassination plots against him might backfire and "[the plotters] will not themselves be safe." Harker later explained that Castro specifically singled him out for the remarks and that it was clear that Castro's threat was against US leaders.
Harker: "I never misunderstood Castro. There was absolutely no hint that he was referring to the Cuban exiles. Spanish is my first language, as a Latin-American born in Columbia, Venezuela. That's why the AP sent me to Havana in the first place, because I was fluent in both Spanish and English.
Castro chose me for the interview because I had interviewed him two months earlier, and he was impressed with the4 accuracy of my account. After the September conversation, I stayed in Havana three more years and never once
did he complain that I had misrepresented him. In fact, all our wire transmissions were monitored by the Castro government, which had to approve the material before it was sent out.
The interview [with Castro] lasted three hours. We stood the entire time. Castro was not mad, merely colloquial."
And when Castro was asked about the above comment by the HSCA he said that his warning had nothing to do with the
exiles, but with it was a "warning that we know" about the plots, and they just might boomerang on the authors of the plots."
Then four days before the assassination JFK said this: "It is important to restate what now divides Cuba from my country and from all of the American countries. It is the fact that a small band of conspirators has stripped the Cuban people of their freedom and handed over the independence and sovereignty of the Cuban nation to forces beyond the hemisphere.
They have made Cuba a victim of foreign imperialism, an instrument of the policy of others, a weapon in an effort dictated by external powers to subver the other American Republics. This, and this alone, divides us. As long as this is true nothing is possible. Without it everything is possible. Once this barrier is removed, we will be ready and anxious to work with the Cuban people in pursuit of those progressive goals which, a few short years ago, stirred their hearts..."
So we do have as a backdrop these interesting tit-for-tat implicit threats by Castro and JFK against each other. Did Oswald read these? Was he aware of them? I think so. But did they motivate him to act in response?
But that's a pretty far reach; how would Castro even know Oswald was in Dallas that day? There's no evidence of any communications between him and Cuban officials. Where's the evidence for this connection?
Although I agree that we haven’t seen much evidence, and most likely never will; I don’t believe that it is a “far reach” to believe that Cuban intelligence agents would have been keeping track of LHO. After all, he made quite a scene when he visited the consulate in Mexico City. Latell writes that Castro was very much hands on leading the DIG and was immediately made aware of all important items. And that he would have unquestionably been made aware of the LHO visit. Therefore, Castro likely knew where LHO was and that JFK was in the motorcade in Dallas on 11/22/63. So to respond to your question, I believe that, at the very least, Aspillaga’s account of the radio antennae re-direction is credible evidence that Cuban intelligence (and most likely Castro) was aware.
Did Oswald read these? Was he aware of them? I think so. But did they motivate him to act in response?
I believe that the defiant “communist salute” by LHO at DPD shortly after his arrest is evidence that he was motivated by those reports. And also most likely he was motivated by other antagonistic domestic speeches by Castro that fall that he heard on his shortwave radio.
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But that's a pretty far reach; how would Castro even know Oswald was in Dallas that day? There's no evidence of any communications between him and Cuban officials. Where's the evidence for this connection?
Although I agree that we haven’t seen much evidence, and most likely never will; I don’t believe that it is a “far reach” to believe that Cuban intelligence agents would have been keeping track of LHO. After all, he made quite a scene when he visited the consulate in Mexico City. Latell writes that Castro was very much hands on leading the DIG and was immediately made aware of all important items. And that he would have unquestionably been made aware of the LHO visit. Therefore, Castro likely knew where LHO was and that JFK was in the motorcade in Dallas on 11/22/63. So to respond to your question, I believe that, at the very least, Aspillaga’s account of the radio antennae re-direction is credible evidence that Cuban intelligence (and most likely Castro) was aware.
Did Oswald read these? Was he aware of them? I think so. But did they motivate him to act in response?
I believe that the defiant “communist salute” by LHO at DPD shortly after his arrest is evidence that he was motivated by those reports. And also most likely he was motivated by other antagonistic domestic speeches by Castro that fall that he heard on his shortwave radio.
I believe that the defiant “communist salute” by LHO at DPD shortly after his arrest is evidence that he was motivated by those reports.
Oh boy, so now we are down to a biased interpretation of a gesture?
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But that's a pretty far reach; how would Castro even know Oswald was in Dallas that day? There's no evidence of any communications between him and Cuban officials. Where's the evidence for this connection?
Although I agree that we haven’t seen much evidence, and most likely never will; I don’t believe that it is a “far reach” to believe that Cuban intelligence agents would have been keeping track of LHO. After all, he made quite a scene when he visited the consulate in Mexico City. Latell writes that Castro was very much hands on leading the DIG and was immediately made aware of all important items. And that he would have unquestionably been made aware of the LHO visit. Therefore, Castro likely knew where LHO was and that JFK was in the motorcade in Dallas on 11/22/63. So to respond to your question, I believe that, at the very least, Aspillaga’s account of the radio antennae re-direction is credible evidence that Cuban intelligence (and most likely Castro) was aware.
Did Oswald read these? Was he aware of them? I think so. But did they motivate him to act in response?
I believe that the defiant “communist salute” by LHO at DPD shortly after his arrest is evidence that he was motivated by those reports. And also most likely he was motivated by other antagonistic domestic speeches by Castro that fall that he heard on his shortwave radio.
How did Cuban agents know Oswald moved to Dallas? Was working there? Why would they even care about some oddball who made threats against JFK but was, according to the accounts of the Cubans there, tossed out on his rear end. Again, Azcue reportedly forcefully threw Oswald out of the consulate and didn't want anything to do with him.
By the Cubans accounts, Oswald came across as a crank, a misfit that they wanted nothing to do with. It simply doesn't add up to me that they would somehow track his whereabouts. When he went back to Dallas he laid low. How would they find him?
And Oswald put a New Orleans address (4907 Magezina (sic) Street address) on his transit visa application. I can see that if he put Dallas as an address that would help keep track of him.
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I believe that the defiant “communist salute” by LHO at DPD shortly after his arrest is evidence that he was motivated by those reports.
Oh boy, so now we are down to a biased interpretation of a gesture?
First of all, this is not an original idea that I dreamt up. It is the theme of Latell’s book. I suggest you read the book before blindly criticizing it. Here is a quote from the book that corroborates what Steve brought up about the speeches and I commented on:
The Dallas Times Herald reported that Kennedy “all but invited the Cuban people to overthrow Castro and promised them support if they do.” In the same editions on November 19, the Dallas press for the first time carried block-by-block details of the route the president’s motorcade would follow three days later. It was then that Lee Harvey Oswald first became aware that Kennedy would pass beneath the windows of the Texas Book Depository where he worked. Oswald probably also read what Kennedy had said in Miami Beach and the Dallas paper’s interpretation of it.
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First of all, this is not an original idea that I dreamt up. It is the theme of Latell’s book. I suggest you read the book before blindly criticizing it. Here is a quote from the book that corroborates what Steve brought up about the speeches and I commented on:
The Dallas Times Herald reported that Kennedy “all but invited the Cuban people to overthrow Castro and promised them support if they do.” In the same editions on November 19, the Dallas press for the first time carried block-by-block details of the route the president’s motorcade would follow three days later. It was then that Lee Harvey Oswald first became aware that Kennedy would pass beneath the windows of the Texas Book Depository where he worked. Oswald probably also read what Kennedy had said in Miami Beach and the Dallas paper’s interpretation of it.
It is the theme of Latell’s book. I suggest you read the book before blindly criticizing it.
I didn't criticize the book, I criticized the absurd notion that the gesture of a man can be interpreted in the way you (and perhaps the book) did.
It was then that Lee Harvey Oswald first became aware that Kennedy would pass beneath the windows of the Texas Book Depository where he worked.
Just because the Dallas trip was announced in the papers on November 19th doesn't mean automatically that Oswald became aware of it on that date. Given the fact that Oswald used to read yesterday's papers he may well not have known about the schedule of the motorcade until, at best, the next day or even later. The testimony of his co-worker indicates that he asked him, on the 22 th, what the fuzz was all about, which may well mean that he didn't know at all about the motorcade passing by the TSBD until they day it happened.
Oswald probably also read what Kennedy had said in Miami Beach and the Dallas paper’s interpretation of it.
Probably?
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How did Cuban agents know Oswald moved to Dallas? Was working there? Why would they even care about some oddball who made threats against JFK but was, according to the accounts of the Cubans there, tossed out on his rear end. Again, Azcue reportedly forcefully threw Oswald out of the consulate and didn't want anything to do with him.
By the Cubans accounts, Oswald came across as a crank, a misfit that they wanted nothing to do with. It simply doesn't add up to me that they would somehow track his whereabouts. When he went back to Dallas he laid low. How would they find him?
And Oswald put a New Orleans address (4907 Magezina (sic) Street address) on his transit visa application. I can see that if he put Dallas as an address that would help keep track of him.
The official responses from the Cubans after the assassination are what they wanted to project. They would have wanted to appear to have dismissed him as a nut. However the Mexico City consulate was a hub of activity for the Cuban intelligence agents’ efforts to enlist and direct many Central American revolutionaries. They were accustomed to dealing with revolutionary zealots like LHO. Why wouldn’t they be interested in LHO? He was attempting to help their cause! They would have at least wanted to find out if he was really who he said he was and not a potential spy. According to Latell, the DGI was better than the CIA in many respects during this period. Some of that was due to the CIA underestimating their abilities.
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It is the theme of Latell’s book. I suggest you read the book before blindly criticizing it.
I didn't criticize the book, I criticized the absurd notion that the gesture of a man can be interpreted in the way you (and perhaps the book) did.
It was then that Lee Harvey Oswald first became aware that Kennedy would pass beneath the windows of the Texas Book Depository where he worked.
Just because the Dallas trip was announced in the papers on November 19th doesn't mean automatically that Oswald became aware of it on that date. Given the fact that Oswald used to read yesterday's papers he may well not have known about the schedule of the motorcade until, at best, the next day or even later. The testimony of his co-worker indicates that he asked him, on the 22 th, what the fuzz was all about, which may well mean that he didn't know at all about the motorcade passing by the TSBD until they day it happened.
Oswald probably also read what Kennedy had said in Miami Beach and the Dallas paper’s interpretation of it.
Probably?
Look back at your previous comments in this thread. You have criticized practically every point, and continue to do so.
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Look back at your previous comments in this thread. You have criticized practically every point, and continue to do so.
Nope.. I have questioned every point and for one very good reason; the points raised are not sound and require all sorts of speculation to even make sense.
Get your act together and present a compellent case and we may have something to talk about. All you are doing so far is confirming your own bias.
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Nope.. I have questioned every point and for one very good reason; the points raised are not sound and require all sorts of speculation to even make sense.
Get your act together and present a compellent case and we may have something to talk about. All you are doing so far is confirming your own bias.
Your opinions don’t interest me. Read the book, like I already suggested, and then you might be able to make a comment worth responding to.
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Your opinions don’t interest me. Read the book, like I already suggested, and then you might be able to make a comment worth responding to.
Your opinions don’t interest me.
There it is again, the standard Charles Collins cop out whenever somebody says something he doesn't like.
You are the one who started the thread, now I am giving you feed back you don't like and like a coward you run.... Pathetic!
Don't start a thread and ask for opinions if you can't handle the responses.
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Your opinions don’t interest me.
There it is again, the standard Charles Collins cop out whenever somebody says something he doesn't like.
You are the one who started the thread, now I am giving you feed back you don't like and like a coward you run.... Pathetic!
Don't start a thread and ask for opinions if you can't handle the responses.
I have answered critical questions from others who disagree with the theory. Your responses (this one included) are only your opinions that are designed to attack. Good luck trying to get reasonable responses to those....
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I have answered critical questions from others who disagree with the theory. Your responses (this one included) are only your opinions that are designed to attack. Good luck trying to get reasonable responses to those....
I haven't expressed any opinion other than that I do not see the dots that you are connecting to reach your own conclusion. I also did not attack you. The fact that you consider my observations as an attack on you says so much more about you than it does about me.
You may have answered "critical questions" (whatever that means) from others but you have never been able to deal with my feed back in a honest way.
What I did see is that points I have raised earlier were repeated by others and you replied to those but ignored them when I pointed them out to begin with.
You seem to be very selective in who you want to answer and who not.
You are not seeking for "reasonable answers", you want answers that you consider "reasonable".... there is a difference!
Your responses (this one included) are only your opinions that are designed to attack.
So now you attack me for allegedly attacking you when all I have done is question your opinion..... Project much?
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Your opinions don’t interest me.
That's fine, Charles, but it cuts both ways. Why should we be interested in Latell's opinion of when Oswald "became aware" of something, or somebody's opinion about a "communist salute"?
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Charles: Here's a key section of Latell's book that I think warrants highlighting. Notice the lengthy number of qualifiers. "If" and "possibly" and "probably." Oswald may have met with Cuban agents at the so-called "twist party" (which is an odd place to do so but never mind) or elsewhere; but Latell doesn't offer us any evidence other than rumors and allegations.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a4f5/95fzftvw8uy3yj8zg.jpg)
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Charles: Here's a key section of Latell's book that I think warrants highlighting. Notice the lengthy number of qualifiers. "If" and "possibly" and "probably." Oswald may have met with Cuban agents at the so-called "twist party" (which is an odd place to do so but never mind) or elsewhere; but Latell doesn't offer us any evidence other than rumors and allegations.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a4f5/95fzftvw8uy3yj8zg.jpg)
Yes, thanks Steve. The book is quite interesting. And the covert activities of the DIG and CIA in Mexico City should be a point of our focus. Sadly, we will most likely not ever know precisely what happened because the covert activities have been kept umm secret. And we are therefore sometimes forced into trying to use our best guesses based on what we do have.
The perspective of Latell is unique. He does a pretty good job of providing source notes for the items he can. And using qualifiers, etc, when needed.
I believe that Aspillaga’s account of the morning of 11/22/63 is credible evidence that there was some prior knowledge (or at least some curious guessing going on) in DIG headquarters about a potential assassination. I hope that some corroboration will surface one day.
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I do find it more than plausible, indeed I think it's likely, that IF Oswald mentioned that he had knowledge on or about anti-Castro groups (the DRE or others, e.g. the Silvio Odio alleged encounter?) that that would have drawn the interest of DGI agents in Mexico City. As Latell pointed out, Castro's people had infiltrated almost all of those groups; it was a key aim of the Cuban intelligence. And Mexico City was reportedly a critical location for Cuban intelligence operations. Oswald was desperate to get to Cuba; it's certainly conceivable to me that he would dangle such information (real or fake) to the Cubans in hopes of getting allowed into the country.
But that's the key point: he wasn't given the transit visa. He was told to leave. So these possibilities hit the wall. They don't add up.
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Two things (at least) are puzzling to me about the Mexico City/Cuban consulate matter:
(1) Eusebio Azcue, the Cuban consul at the time of Oswald's visit, said (as did two others: Duran, Mirabal) that he threw Oswald out of the consulate with the admonition that "the Revolution doesn't need people like you." This was because Oswald had been demanding and rude with his request for a transit visa.
But the Cubans later granted Oswald a transit visa. Yes, it was contingent (still) on his showing a Soviet visa. So, if they believed Oswald was either some sort of provocateur or a nut or someone they didn't want, why grant him a visa? He's a nut, a danger, throw his request away. Don't process it.
I've seen references to Oswald's visa being granted but can't recall where that confirmation comes from. Do you recall? If it was granted, then it was likely that the Cubans were entirely deferential to the Russians in that process since the transit visa technically only allowed Oswald to stop in Cuba on his way to the USSR. So if the USSR approved and wanted a nut on their hands it was of no concern to the Cubans.
It would not surprise me if the CIA and Russians/Cubans did a whole lot of CYA after the fact to minimize the criticism that they should have known Oswald was a danger. The CIA also had no incentive after Oswald's death to disclose their methods and sources of surveillance of the Cuban and Russian embassies. They very well could have had more information than they ever disclosed but saw no reason once Oswald was dead and they were satisfied of his guilt to reveal it and allow the Russians and Cubans to reverse engineer the intelligence that they had obtained. A cover up allows for a lot of sinister implications for those inclined to a mass conspiracy. But there is no credible evidence of the involvement of Russia or Cuba in the assassination. The explanation for bizarre actions is sometimes just that you are just dealing with a nut.
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I've seen references to Oswald's visa being granted but can't recall where that confirmation comes from. Do you recall? If it was granted, then it was likely that the Cubans were entirely deferential to the Russians in that process since the transit visa technically only allowed Oswald to stop in Cuba on his way to the USSR. So if the USSR approved and wanted a nut on their hands it was of no concern to the Cubans.
It would not surprise me if the CIA and Russians/Cubans did a whole lot of CYA after the fact to minimize the criticism that they should have known Oswald was a danger. The CIA also had no incentive after Oswald's death to disclose their methods and sources of surveillance of the Cuban and Russian embassies. They very well could have had more information than they ever disclosed but saw no reason once Oswald was dead and they were satisfied of his guilt to reveal it and allow the Russians and Cubans to reverse engineer the intelligence that they had obtained. A cover up allows for a lot of sinister implications for those inclined to a mass conspiracy. But there is no credible evidence of the involvement of Russia or Cuba in the assassination. The explanation for bizarre actions is sometimes just that you are just dealing with a nut.
Epstein cites it here: http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/question_oswald.htm
He writes: "On October 18, 1963, according to its own records, the Cuban Foreign Ministry in Havana authorized the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City to issue a transit visa for Lee Harvey Oswald to enter Cuba. It required that Oswald also obtain a visa to enter the Soviet Union."
I believe there's a photo of the letter in the HSCA list of exhibits. It was sent from Havana to the consulate in MC but not to Oswald (he put his New Orleans address on the application).
Added: The letter is here (the date is October 15 so perhaps Epstein is referring to a different letter?): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=847&tab=page
Note: It doesn't explicitly authorize the visa or deny it either but says that: "I respectfully inform you that in order for us to comply with his request, he must inform us by cable, with prepaid reply, when he has the authorized visa of the Embassy of the U.S.S.R." In any case, this indicates that the application was sent to Havana and not tossed away. Very strange.
If I recall, Oswald never returned any visa application to the Soviets in Mexico City. I think he wanted them to expedite his earlier requests that he had sent to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. Nosenko said that he personally turned down those requests to return. So if the Soviets didn't want him back I can't see them telling the Cubans to give him a transit visa. Without a Soviet visa he wouldn't be given the transit visa.
My guess is yours: bureaucracies shuffling paper. Conspiracists don't like innocent explanations (unless they clear Oswald: curtain rods anyone?) but most things happen without any larger purpose.
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I do find it more than plausible, indeed I think it's likely, that IF Oswald mentioned that he had knowledge on or about anti-Castro groups (the DRE or others, e.g. the Silvio Odio alleged encounter?) that that would have drawn the interest of DGI agents in Mexico City. As Latell pointed out, Castro's people had infiltrated almost all of those groups; it was a key aim of the Cuban intelligence. And Mexico City was reportedly a critical location for Cuban intelligence operations. Oswald was desperate to get to Cuba; it's certainly conceivable to me that he would dangle such information (real or fake) to the Cubans in hopes of getting allowed into the country.
But that's the key point: he wasn't given the transit visa. He was told to leave. So these possibilities hit the wall. They don't add up.
The Cuban and Soviet officials in Mexico City were probably giving LHO the proverbial “runaround.” No one was likely to be willing to stick their neck out for LHO due to the reputation that he reportedly earned with his past behavior in Russia, etc. However, Latell wrote that Cuban intelligence would have had a file on LHO that went back to his days in the Marine Corps. (LHO reportedly contacted the Cubans in Los Angeles back then.) And LHO’s activities in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 most likely drew Cuban intelligence’s attention also. If LHO, while in Mexico City, did in fact threaten to kill JFK, I believe that Cuban intelligence would have been negligent if they didn’t track LHO back to Dallas. If Latell is correct (that Castro was informed of LHO’s threat), I believe that Castro would have at least ordered them to keep track of LHO.
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I've seen references to Oswald's visa being granted but can't recall where that confirmation comes from. Do you recall? If it was granted, then it was likely that the Cubans were entirely deferential to the Russians in that process since the transit visa technically only allowed Oswald to stop in Cuba on his way to the USSR. So if the USSR approved and wanted a nut on their hands it was of no concern to the Cubans.
It would not surprise me if the CIA and Russians/Cubans did a whole lot of CYA after the fact to minimize the criticism that they should have known Oswald was a danger. The CIA also had no incentive after Oswald's death to disclose their methods and sources of surveillance of the Cuban and Russian embassies. They very well could have had more information than they ever disclosed but saw no reason once Oswald was dead and they were satisfied of his guilt to reveal it and allow the Russians and Cubans to reverse engineer the intelligence that they had obtained. A cover up allows for a lot of sinister implications for those inclined to a mass conspiracy. But there is no credible evidence of the involvement of Russia or Cuba in the assassination. The explanation for bizarre actions is sometimes just that you are just dealing with a nut.
But there is no credible evidence of the involvement of Russia or Cuba in the assassination.
I agree that the evidence suggests LHO acted alone. However, I believe that the Aspillaga account of the morning of 11/22/63 is credible evidence that the Cubans were at least suspicious and curious about the possibility of an assassination attempt in Dallas.
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The Cuban and Soviet officials in Mexico City were probably giving LHO the proverbial “runaround.” No one was likely to be willing to stick their neck out for LHO due to the reputation that he reportedly earned with his past behavior in Russia, etc. However, Latell wrote that Cuban intelligence would have had a file on LHO that went back to his days in the Marine Corps. (LHO reportedly contacted the Cubans in Los Angeles back then.) And LHO’s activities in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 most likely drew Cuban intelligence’s attention also. If LHO, while in Mexico City, did in fact threaten to kill JFK, I believe that Cuban intelligence would have been negligent if they didn’t track LHO back to Dallas. If Latell is correct (that Castro was informed of LHO’s threat), I believe that Castro would have at least ordered them to keep track of LHO.
But there is no credible evidence of the involvement of Russia or Cuba in the assassination.
I agree that the evidence suggests LHO acted alone. However, I believe that the Aspillaga account of the morning of 11/22/63 is credible evidence that the Cubans were at least suspicious and curious about the possibility of an assassination attempt in Dallas.
You seem to be struggling to get anybody to agree with you. Don't you never wonder why that is?
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Epstein cites it here: http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/question_oswald.htm
He writes: "On October 18, 1963, according to its own records, the Cuban Foreign Ministry in Havana authorized the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City to issue a transit visa for Lee Harvey Oswald to enter Cuba. It required that Oswald also obtain a visa to enter the Soviet Union."
I believe there's a photo of the letter in the HSCA list of exhibits. It was sent from Havana to the consulate in MC but not to Oswald (he put his New Orleans address on the application).
Added: The letter is here (the date is October 15 so perhaps Epstein is referring to a different letter?): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=847&tab=page
Note: It doesn't explicitly authorize the visa or deny it either but says that: "I respectfully inform you that in order for us to comply with his request, he must inform us by cable, with prepaid reply, when he has the authorized visa of the Embassy of the U.S.S.R." In any case, this indicates that the application was sent to Havana and not tossed away. Very strange.
If I recall, Oswald never returned any visa application to the Soviets in Mexico City. I think he wanted them to expedite his earlier requests that he had sent to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. Nosenko said that he personally turned down those requests to return. So if the Soviets didn't want him back I can't see them telling the Cubans to give him a transit visa. Without a Soviet visa he wouldn't be given the transit visa.
My guess is yours: bureaucracies shuffling paper. Conspiracists don't like innocent explanations (unless they clear Oswald: curtain rods anyone?) but most things happen without any larger purpose.
In any case, this indicates that the application was sent to Havana and not tossed away. Very strange.
And credible evidence that LHO was not simply dismissed as a nut. He managed to at least get their attention. And since Havana got involved, chances are greater that Castro knew about LHO...
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You seem to be struggling to get anybody to agree with you. Don't you never wonder why that is?
No, not at all. We are having a meaningful conversation about the assassination.
However, I do wonder why you continue to attack and have nothing of substance to add to the conversation.
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No, not at all. We are having a meaningful conversation about the assassination.
However, I do wonder why you continue to attack and have nothing of substance to add to the conversation.
What's with the paranoia?
Does asking questions equal "attack" in your mind?
I am not attacking you. Anybody who reads this thread from the beginning will see that I have only been asking questions which you simply refuse (or perhaps can't) answer. It seems to me that you prefer to only have a conversation with fellow LNs. Perhaps it is a comfort zone thing, could that be? In any event, it says a great deal about you and very little about me.
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[...]
Jack Childs’s Operation SOLO report to the FBI, and a second by the British journalist, about Oswald’s shouted threat to kill Kennedy... [as he angrily left the Cuban Consulate [sic] in Mexico City]
Charles,
It's interesting to note that FBI informer Morris Childs (FBI informer Jack's brother), posing as an officer of the CPUSA in Moscow on 11/22/63, claimed that late that night, two Russian functionaries or bureaucrats rushed into a meeting Childs was having with some Kremlin officials, blurted out in Russian that Lee Harvey Oswald had just been arrested in Dallas, and that KGB had already determined it had had nothing to do with Oswald's assassinating JFK.
Not knowing that Childs understood Russian, the two functionaries turned to him and told him the same thing ... in perfect English ...
-- MWT ;)
PS Oswald's alleged threat to kill JFK occurred at the Cuban embassy, not the consulate.
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Charles,
It's interesting to note that FBI informer Morris Childs (FBI informer Jack's brother), posing as an officer of the CPUSA in Moscow on 11/22/63, claimed that late that night, two Russian functionaries or bureaucrats rushed into a meeting Childs was having with some Kremlin officials, blurted out in Russian that Lee Harvey Oswald had just been arrested in Dallas, and that KGB had already determined it had had nothing to do with Oswald's assassinating JFK.
Not knowing that Childs understood Russian, the two functionaries turned to him and told him the same thing ... in perfect English ...
-- MWT ;)
PS Oswald's alleged threat to kill JFK occurred at the Cuban embassy, not the consulate.
Oswald's alleged threat to kill JFK occurred at the Cuban embassy, not the consulate.
Thanks Thomas, that is very interesting. Here is a quote from Latell’s book that says it was at the consulate. There are also three other items that corroborate the belief of advanced knowledge of Oswald:
Four other sources have confirmed that Fidel and the DGI had advance knowledge of Oswald. Vladimir Rodriguez Lahera, the first important defector from Cuban intelligence—fully trusted by the CIA and used in sensitive operations—told his handlers in May 1964 that Castro had lied. The defector was at DGI headquarters in Havana when news of Kennedy’s death was broadcast. It was there that he heard other officers discussing what they already knew about Oswald.9 Alfredo Mirabal, an intelligence officer under consular cover at Havana’s Mexico City embassy, inadvertently revealed in 1978 that in September 1963 he had informed headquarters about Oswald. Jack Childs, a trusted FBI agent in its highly sensitive Operation SOLO, also provided reliable information proving that Castro knew about Oswald before November 1963. Childs’s undercover work included a meeting with Castro in Havana in May 1964 that is described in chapter seven. Remarkably, Castro revealed to Childs that he had been aware that, while at the Cuban consulate in Mexico City, Oswald had threatened to murder Kennedy. And finally, Florentino Aspillaga, the highest-level, most-decorated officer ever to defect from the DGI, is convinced that Fidel had advance knowledge of the assassination in Dallas. Aspillaga’s story is told throughout the following chapters.
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Oswald's alleged threat to kill JFK occurred at the Cuban embassy, not the consulate.
Thanks Thomas, that is very interesting. Here is a quote from Latell’s book that says it was at the consulate. There are also three other items that corroborate the belief of advanced knowledge of Oswald:
Four other sources have confirmed that Fidel and the DGI had advance knowledge of Oswald. Vladimir Rodriguez Lahera, the first important defector from Cuban intelligence—fully trusted by the CIA and used in sensitive operations—told his handlers in May 1964 that Castro had lied. The defector was at DGI headquarters in Havana when news of Kennedy’s death was broadcast. It was there that he heard other officers discussing what they already knew about Oswald.9 Alfredo Mirabal, an intelligence officer under consular cover at Havana’s Mexico City embassy, inadvertently revealed in 1978 that in September 1963 he had informed headquarters about Oswald. Jack Childs, a trusted FBI agent in its highly sensitive Operation SOLO, also provided reliable information proving that Castro knew about Oswald before November 1963. Childs’s undercover work included a meeting with Castro in Havana in May 1964 that is described in chapter seven. Remarkably, Castro revealed to Childs that he had been aware that, while at the Cuban consulate in Mexico City, Oswald had threatened to murder Kennedy. And finally, Florentino Aspillaga, the highest-level, most-decorated officer ever to defect from the DGI, is convinced that Fidel had advance knowledge of the assassination in Dallas. Aspillaga’s story is told throughout the following chapters.
I don't think that's right, that the alleged threat was made at the Embassy. Not that it matters much but all of this - the encounters with Oswald et cetera - was at the Consulate building. The Consulate building and the Embassy were two different buildings although I think the Consulate was connected to the Embassy (it's not clear).
Duran said she worked at the Consulate, which is where Oswald went for the transit visa, and not the Embassy. And Eusebio Azcue, who threw Oswald out, was the Cuban Consul not the Cuban Ambassador.
From Silvia Tirado's (nee Duran) testimony:
CORNWELL - At one time you worked for the Cuban Consulate.
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Did you in any other way know any of the other employees at the Consulate?
TIRADO - Yes, well I knew Azcue, Eusebio Azcue who was a consul, and uh, Maria Carman Olivari -- she's dead.
And this indicating that people worked at the Embassy or the Consulate (two separate buildings):
CORNWELL - Now, did you know a Teresa Proenza? Was she employed at the Consulate or the Embassy.
TIRADO - The Embassy. She was the Cultural Attache.
CORNWELL - She would have worked in the area marked number four? Is that correct?
TIRADO - Well, yes. But this was, this construction was uh, afterwards. This was the Embassy and the Consulate and building was under construction, constructed. A building.
Rest of her testimony is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../m_j_russ/hscadurn.htm
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In any case, this indicates that the application was sent to Havana and not tossed away. Very strange.
And credible evidence that LHO was not simply dismissed as a nut. He managed to at least get their attention. And since Havana got involved, chances are greater that Castro knew about LHO...
Azcue said that he was not at the consulate when the application was processed and signed off and sent to Havana. The signature on it is was Alfredo Mirabal's who succeeded Azcue as consul. Mirabal was also there at the time of this incident.
He said this in his HSCA testimony:
Senor MIRABAL. ... I would like to state to the members of the committee that in connection with this entire process of the two visits that he made to the consulate, my impression from the very first moment was that it was in fact a provocation. He insisted on the urgency of his need for a visa. He indicated that he was being persecuted. He indicated that he could not stay long in Mexico, that he had an urgent need to travel to Cuba and therefrom to go to the Soviet Union.
On the first day he was not given the visa because he did not fulfill the necessary requirements, requirements that are asked of all individuals who are visa applicants.
On the second time he came to file the application, and yet he insisted that he needed to have it processed rapidly with great urgency. It was because of these demands of his that the argument with Mr. Azcue and with the secretary followed, and in fact during the argument he accused us all of not being true revolutionaries, of not being sensitive to the fact that he was being persecuted.
I must say that from the very beginning I considered this a provocation, and I assured that in the manner in which we handled the case we followed the directives of the Foreign Ministry in the sense that all individuals have to follow certain procedures in order to obtain a visa.
So he thought it was a "provocation" but then signed off on the application? And didn't mention in his notes about his belief that it was some sort of "provocation"? As I said above, it's probably just paper pushing, signing off on things but it's odd that Azcue and Mirabal both thought it was some sort of setup but, at least with Mirabal, still approved the application.
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Where did we borrow the title?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z2644ST1L._SX280_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Probably a better book :-\
Oswald's alleged threat to kill JFK occurred at the Cuban embassy, not the consulate.
An allegation should be based on something besides a whim.
The difference between an embassy and a consulate is that an embassy is headed by an ambassador and a consulate is headed by a consul general. A sending country's diplomatic mission to another has only one embassy. If the mission is resident in the host country, then the embassy is located in the capital.
The Cubans have an Embassy in Mexico City.
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Where did we borrow the title?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z2644ST1L._SX280_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Probably a better book :-\An allegation should be based on something besides a whim.The Cubans have an Embassy in Mexico City.
A whim? The reported threat was based on statements allegedly made by Castro himself to a important US double agent, Jack Childs. Childs and his brother, Morris, were top members of the CPUSA and were highly trusted by the Soviets and Cubans. These were not oddballs. They were top agents.
At the time of the alleged incident the Cubans had both a consulate building and an Embassy. According to the Cubans - Duran, Azcue, Mirabal - the encounter took place at the Consulate. That was where visa applications were processed.
And what does Crenshaw know about Oswald and Mexico City?
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And what does Crenshaw know about Oswald and Mexico City?
And what does Crenshaw know about Oswald....? https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy/CrenshawDies.html
You might get off your high horse and go read some books.
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In any case, this indicates that the application was sent to Havana and not tossed away. Very strange.
And credible evidence that LHO was not simply dismissed as a nut. He managed to at least get their attention. And since Havana got involved, chances are greater that Castro knew about LHO...
Charles, Steve M.,
Iirc, false defector Nosenko wasn't even working in the Tourist Section of the KGB when Oswald was allegedly in Mexico City.
Regardless, Nosenko was a false defector, so you gotta take everything he says with a grain of polonium I mean salt.
-- MWT ;)
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Where did we borrow the title?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z2644ST1L._SX280_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Probably a better book :-\An allegation should be based on something besides a whim.The Cubans have an Embassy in Mexico City.
Where did we borrow the title?
The title of this thread (Conspiracy of Silence) was borrowed from the title of the final chapter (chapter 11) of Latrell’s book: “Castro’s Secrets.”
Probably a better book
I highly recommend Brian Latell’s book “Castro’s Secrets.” I haven’t read the book you’ve referenced. If you do read them both and want to provide your reviews, please let us know what you think about them.
An allegation should be based on something besides a whim.
I agree, and suggest that you research before posting...
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Epstein cites it here: http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/question_oswald.htm
He writes: "On October 18, 1963, according to its own records, the Cuban Foreign Ministry in Havana authorized the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City to issue a transit visa for Lee Harvey Oswald to enter Cuba. It required that Oswald also obtain a visa to enter the Soviet Union."
I believe there's a photo of the letter in the HSCA list of exhibits. It was sent from Havana to the consulate in MC but not to Oswald (he put his New Orleans address on the application).
Added: The letter is here (the date is October 15 so perhaps Epstein is referring to a different letter?): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=847&tab=page
Note: It doesn't explicitly authorize the visa or deny it either but says that: "I respectfully inform you that in order for us to comply with his request, he must inform us by cable, with prepaid reply, when he has the authorized visa of the Embassy of the U.S.S.R." In any case, this indicates that the application was sent to Havana and not tossed away. Very strange.
If I recall, Oswald never returned any visa application to the Soviets in Mexico City. I think he wanted them to expedite his earlier requests that he had sent to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. Nosenko said that he personally turned down those requests to return. So if the Soviets didn't want him back I can't see them telling the Cubans to give him a transit visa. Without a Soviet visa he wouldn't be given the transit visa.
My guess is yours: bureaucracies shuffling paper. Conspiracists don't like innocent explanations (unless they clear Oswald: curtain rods anyone?) but most things happen without any larger purpose.
[emphasis added by MWT]
Steve M.,
See my last post, this thread regarding Nosenko.
That post was intended for you, not Charles.
My bad.
-- MWT ;)
PS Read this to learn the truth about Nosenko, the guy who, along with Kulak (FBI's "Fedora"), Polyakov (FBI's "Top Hat"), Kochnov (FBI and CIA's "Kittyhawk"), and probable mole George Kisevalter, et al., ended up destroying CIA's counterintelligence capabilities against the Ruskies:
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
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And what does Crenshaw know about Oswald....? https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy/CrenshawDies.html
You might get off your high horse and go read some books.
I wrote/asked what does Crenshaw know about Oswald's visit to Mexico City? The topic is whether Oswald threatened to kill JFK when he was at the Cuban consulate. And in general what happened to him when he was there.
You brought up Crenshaw. I asked what does he know about the above? If you've got something, then present it. Otherwise this is just hijacking a pretty good thread. If you started a post on Crenshaw's book and someone mentioned Latell's book or another topic you wouldn't like it. Correctly so. So, start a thread on his book.
As to reading other books: that's remarkable since you've made several comments about the book that was being discussed yet never read it. I would suggest you follow your own suggestions.
Reading books is worthless if one doesn't have the intelligence to discern fact from fiction. Your problem is your incredible credulity over the crackpot conspiracy books you have read.
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Reading books is worthless if one doesn't have the intelligence to discern fact from fiction. Your problem is your incredible credulity over the crackpot conspiracy books you have read.
Steve Galbraith does not know what books I have read and what I have 'discerned' and what I have rejected from them.
Does Mr Galbraith believe that if one questions the official story that they are a 'crackpot'?
What a crackpot idea that is ::)
Now ...the Castro did it theory has been examined and rejected long ago.
Go to the https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1599.0.html thread and report concrete evidence that Oswald really ever went to MC at all.
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Secondly, how in the world could Castro have known in advance that Oswald wanted to kill Kennedy, when Oswald, on the one hand, couldn't have known that Kennedy was coming to Dallas until it was announced, only a few days earlier, and, on the other hand, there is no known evidence that even remotely shows that Oswald intended to kill Kennedy at another location than Dallas.
...Jack Childs’s Operation SOLO report to the FBI, and a second by the British journalist, about Oswald’s shouted threat to kill Kennedy... [as he angrily left the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City]
And, LHO had the phone number of Sylvia Duran in his pocket sized address book...
Once LHO had devised his plan, all he needed to do was pick up a pay phone and alert her... quite feasible...
FWIW, one of the people who lived at the Rooming House where Oswald stayed recalled him speaking Spanish (not Russian) on the phone sometimes.
If true, who was he speaking to in Spanish?
I don’t think it can be ruled out that Oswald was in contact with Cuban Intelligence. There’s other circumstantial evidence that links him to the Cubans too...
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I wrote/asked what does Crenshaw know about Oswald's visit to Mexico City? The topic is whether Oswald threatened to kill JFK when he was at the Cuban consulate. And in general what happened to him when he was there.
You brought up Crenshaw. I asked what does he know about the above? If you've got something, then present it. Otherwise this is just hijacking a pretty good thread. If you started a post on Crenshaw's book and someone mentioned Latell's book or another topic you wouldn't like it. Correctly so. So, start a thread on his book.
As to reading other books: that's remarkable since you've made several comments about the book that was being discussed yet never read it. I would suggest you follow your own suggestions.
Reading books is worthless if one doesn't have the intelligence to discern fact from fiction. Your problem is your incredible credulity over the crackpot conspiracy books you have read.
[emphasis added by MWT]
Steve M.,
What difference would it make if (an alleged) Oswald at the Cuban EMBASSY rather than at the Cuban CONSULATE threatened to kill JFK?
Going from memory here, but didn't credit investigator Pedro Gutierrez Valencia say he saw a Cuban hand Oswald a significant amount of money right after they'd left the Cuban EMBASSY, and right before they drove off together in a car?
And didn't Theresa Proenza work as a cultural attache at the Cuban EMBASSY?
Didn't she say she spoke with Oswald right after he entered the Cuban EMBASSY?
-- MWT ;)
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I do find it more than plausible, indeed I think it's likely, that IF Oswald mentioned that he had knowledge on or about anti-Castro groups (the DRE or others, e.g. the Silvio Odio alleged encounter?) that that would have drawn the interest of DGI agents in Mexico City. As Latell pointed out, Castro's people had infiltrated almost all of those groups; it was a key aim of the Cuban intelligence. And Mexico City was reportedly a critical location for Cuban intelligence operations. Oswald was desperate to get to Cuba; it's certainly conceivable to me that he would dangle such information (real or fake) to the Cubans in hopes of getting allowed into the country.
But that's the key point: he wasn't given the transit visa. He was told to leave. So these possibilities hit the wall. They don't add up.
You are correct that Cuban Intel had deeply penetrated the Cuban Exile community in the US.
Which leads to more questions about foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination.
Like for example, maybe the tip about an attempt on Kennedy in Dallas came from the Cuban Exiles in Dallas, not Oswald.
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A quote from Latell’s book that indicates just one of the many news items that LHO likely read that fall. These were probably adding fuel to the revolutionary fire burning in LHO.
[On Monday September 9th]:
In New Orleans, where Lee Harvey Oswald was a regular newspaper reader, the Times Picayune carried the story on page 7. Its headline was: “Castro Blasts Raids on Cuba; Says US Leaders Imperiled by Aid to Rebels.”
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You are correct that Cuban Intel had deeply penetrated the Cuban Exile community in the US.
Which leads to more questions about foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination.
Like for example, maybe the tip about an attempt on Kennedy in Dallas came from the Cuban Exiles in Dallas, not Oswald.
Maybe, but I would think that if Castro received a tip that the exiles were going to kill JFK that he would have revealed that. Certainly after the assassination if not before.
After all, Castro claimed that "rightist elements" killed JFK. I'm sure he would have accused the exiles of doing if if he had evidence.
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Maybe, but I would think that if Castro received a tip that the exiles were going to kill JFK that he would have revealed that. Certainly after the assassination if not before.
After all, Castro claimed that "rightist elements" killed JFK. I'm sure he would have accused the exiles of doing if if he had evidence.
I think most people, including Castro, consider Cuban Exiles "rightwing elements". They're generally the most rightwing group among Latino Americans.
I'm not totally convinced by the claims that Castro personally had foreknowledge of JFK's assassination (based on his first speculative comments about the Kennedy assassination he seemed as confused by the events as anyone else) but it seems plausible that Cuban Intelligence agents were in contact with Oswald.
But given how much Cuban Intel knew about Cuban Exile groups in the US, it seems more plausible that any alleged tips in advance about the Kennedy assassination could've came via other sources.
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A quote from Latell’s book that indicates just one of the many news items that LHO likely read that fall. These were probably adding fuel to the revolutionary fire burning in LHO.
[On Monday September 9th]:
In New Orleans, where Lee Harvey Oswald was a regular newspaper reader, the Times Picayune carried the story on page 7. Its headline was: “Castro Blasts Raids on Cuba; Says US Leaders Imperiled by Aid to Rebels.”
Post Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis, why would news of raids on Cuba be a game-changer for Oswald?
And given his propensity for seeking out (and sometimes Trolling) Cuban Exile groups, why didn't he turn his ire against them directly?
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Post Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis, why would news of raids on Cuba be a game-changer for Oswald?
And given his propensity for seeking out (and sometimes Trolling) Cuban Exile groups, why didn't he turn his ire against them directly?
It wasn’t a game changer for Oswald. Here is a quote from the introduction of Latell’s book “Castro’s Secrets” that I think paints a good picture of LHO’s apparent mindset:
The Cuban revolution had beckoned and intrigued Oswald since the last year of his military service. He was assigned before Christmas in 1958 to Marine Corps Air Station El Toro, near Santa Ana in Southern California, just as Fidel Castro was seizing power in Cuba. Oswald spent the next nine months at El Toro, becoming progressively more enamored of his bearded hero even as Castro’s revolution was spiraling into greater violence and confrontation with the United States. It was a transformational period for the impressionable young Marine. He delved deeper into Marxist literature, became more alienated from the country where he sensed he could never fit in, and immersed himself in news coming out of Havana. “Cuba interested him more than most other situations,” a Marine officer who had a degree in international relations recalled. “He was fairly well informed.”2 The interest was not just academic. Oswald and Marine buddy Nelson Delgado dreamed of going to Cuba to take up arms for Castro. They would fight for him, either in defense of his revolution or in a guerrilla incursion of the kind being sponsored by Cuba to topple rival Caribbean dictatorships. The two young Marines were following the exploits of William Morgan, an American army veteran and adventurer who became a high-ranking commander in Castro’s insurgent forces and, after their victory, went on to help defeat a counterrevolutionary plot against Fidel. Oswald was remarkably like Morgan. Both were brooding social misfits, high school dropouts and dreamers—wanderers attracted to high-risk, violent conflicts. They had both been court-martialed and delighted in rebelling against authority. Morgan redeemed himself, however, by starting a new life when he committed to Castro in early 1958. A year later Oswald hoped to do the same. He fantasized that he might become famous too: Morgan had attracted considerable attention as the swashbuckling “Americano” in a cast of colorful comandantes led by Fidel and Che Guevara.3
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It wasn’t a game changer for Oswald. Here is a quote from the introduction of Latell’s book “Castro’s Secrets” that I think paints a good picture of LHO’s apparent mindset:
The Cuban revolution had beckoned and intrigued Oswald since the last year of his military service. He was assigned before Christmas in 1958 to Marine Corps Air Station El Toro, near Santa Ana in Southern California, just as Fidel Castro was seizing power in Cuba. Oswald spent the next nine months at El Toro, becoming progressively more enamored of his bearded hero even as Castro’s revolution was spiraling into greater violence and confrontation with the United States. It was a transformational period for the impressionable young Marine. He delved deeper into Marxist literature, became more alienated from the country where he sensed he could never fit in, and immersed himself in news coming out of Havana. “Cuba interested him more than most other situations,” a Marine officer who had a degree in international relations recalled. “He was fairly well informed.”2 The interest was not just academic. Oswald and Marine buddy Nelson Delgado dreamed of going to Cuba to take up arms for Castro. They would fight for him, either in defense of his revolution or in a guerrilla incursion of the kind being sponsored by Cuba to topple rival Caribbean dictatorships. The two young Marines were following the exploits of William Morgan, an American army veteran and adventurer who became a high-ranking commander in Castro’s insurgent forces and, after their victory, went on to help defeat a counterrevolutionary plot against Fidel. Oswald was remarkably like Morgan. Both were brooding social misfits, high school dropouts and dreamers—wanderers attracted to high-risk, violent conflicts. They had both been court-martialed and delighted in rebelling against authority. Morgan redeemed himself, however, by starting a new life when he committed to Castro in early 1958. A year later Oswald hoped to do the same. He fantasized that he might become famous too: Morgan had attracted considerable attention as the swashbuckling “Americano” in a cast of colorful comandantes led by Fidel and Che Guevara.3
William Morgan rejected Castro's turn towards Communism and was executed by Castro in 1961.
Oswald was a Marxist and likely would've been comfortable with Cuba's transition into a Communist country.
What seems contradictory is how Oswald seemed to like and admire JFK despite all the hostility between the US and Cuba early in Kennedy's Presidency.
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William Morgan rejected Castro's turn towards Communism and was executed by Castro in 1961.
Oswald was a Marxist and likely would've been comfortable with Cuba's transition into a Communist country.
What seems contradictory is how Oswald seemed to like and admire JFK despite all the hostility between the US and Cuba early in Kennedy's Presidency.
What seems contradictory is how Oswald seemed to like and admire JFK despite all the hostility between the US and Cuba early in Kennedy's Presidency.
No matter whether he really liked JFK or not, the intensity of the news coverage of the covert wars and subsequent language of the speeches by both Castro and JFK in the fall of 1963 most likely alarmed LHO because of the very real threat to Castro and his revolution. (I was only ten years old back then and therefore didn’t fully comprehend, but I do remember the high tensions and constant news coverage. Castro and Cuba were the first to come to many people’s minds when trying to make sense of why JFK was killed.)
LHO apparently made his assassination attempt on Walker soon after Walker’s call for the overthrow of Castro. And the perception that JFK was also threatening Castro was apparently all the motivation that LHO needed...
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Maybe, but I would think that if Castro received a tip that the exiles were going to kill JFK that he would have revealed that. Certainly after the assassination if not before.
Why would anti-Castro Cubans "tip" Fidel about what was in the works? After all, Castro claimed that "rightist elements" killed JFK.......
And he was correct. It was supposed to happen in Miami....but Dallas had the right stuff [no pun intended]
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What seems contradictory is how Oswald seemed to like and admire JFK despite all the hostility between the US and Cuba early in Kennedy's Presidency.
No matter whether he really liked JFK or not, the intensity of the news coverage of the covert wars and subsequent language of the speeches by both Castro and JFK in the fall of 1963 most likely alarmed LHO because of the very real threat to Castro and his revolution. (I was only ten years old back then and therefore didn’t fully comprehend, but I do remember the high tensions and constant news coverage. Castro and Cuba were the first to come to many people’s minds when trying to make sense of why JFK was killed.)
LHO apparently made his assassination attempt on Walker soon after Walker’s call for the overthrow of Castro. And the perception that JFK was also threatening Castro was apparently all the motivation that LHO needed...
That seems wildly speculative.
It’s hard to believe the news coverage about Cuba was MORE intense in 1963 than it was after the Bay of Pigs or Cuban Missile crisis.
General Walker was no more anti-Communist than the average White Southerner in the early 1960s.
What Oswald may have been concerned about with Walker was his violent anti-Integration racism.
Walker was believed to have incited a riot at ‘Ole Miss’ in 1962:
“The crowd reached approximately three thousand rioters, led by former Army Major General Edwin Walker, who had recently been forced to retire when he was ordered to stop giving out racist hate literature to his troops but refused to do so. The crowd consisted of high school and college students, Ku Klux Klan members, Oxford residents, and people from outside the area.
By 9:00 p.m. the riot turned extremely violent. U.S. marshals who had been defending Meredith and university officials in the Lyceum building on campus, where Meredith registered, ran out of tear gas. Rioters threw rocks and bottles and began to shoot. President Kennedy then decided to bring in the Mississippi National Guard and Army troops from Memphis, Tennessee, during the middle of the night, led by Brigadier General Charles Billingslea...”
https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/ole-miss-riot-1962/
One of the redeeming things about Oswald was his opposition to racism and segregation. But it also might’ve been what motivated him to target Walker whom he viewed as a potential ‘Adolf Hitler’.
As for Oswald’s pro-Cuba activism, he had plenty of opportunities to target anti-Castro Cuban Exiles in New Orleans and Dallas with violence or ‘assassination’ throughout 1963.
If he were so concerned about Raids against Cuba, it seems inconsistent that he would ignore the Cuban Exiles and instead focus on Walker then Kennedy.
Full disclosure, I’m inclined to believe that Oswald was involved with JFK’s assassination (haven’t ruled out a conspiracy) but I don’t know what his motive may have been.
The claim that some obscure news article about assassination attempts on Castro in the Fall of 1963 changed Oswald seems weak when viewed in the context of all the other bad stuff between Kennedy and Cuba that we can be certain Oswald was aware of when he said nice things about JFK.
Also, Capt. Will Fritz says Oswald mentioned that US policies towards Cuba were unlikely to change in an LBJ Presidency...
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That seems wildly speculative.
That is all that poster does---speculate.
I was accused of trying to hijack this thread yesterday.
[Which I did not intentionally try and do] However---I think that it would be the best thing that could happen to it--hijacked to say... somewhere on Venus?
Now Jon---General Walker was no more anti-Communist than the average White Southerner in the early 1960s.
That is not entirely true. I grew up in 50-60s Dallas. Most people took the McCarthy doctrine --A Red under your bed---with a grain of salt. I saw a Walker speech [at the Kiwanis club I think] and have his recordings [still] and the General was super ultra radical scary ???
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That is all that poster does---speculate.
I was accused of trying to hijack this thread yesterday.
[Which I did not intentionally try and do] However---I think that it would be the best thing that could happen to it--hijacked to say... somewhere on Venus?
Now Jon---That is not entirely true. I grew up in 50-60s Dallas. Most people took the McCarthy doctrine --A Red under your bed---with a grain of salt. I saw a Walker speech [at the Kiwanis club I think] and have his recordings [still] and the General was super ultra radical scary ???
That is all that poster does---speculate.
Indeed, that's exactly what he does. He started this thread with a preconceived opinion, not based on reason or common sence, but with the mere conviction that what Brian Latell wrote in his incredibly speculative book is actually true and he only wants discussion with those who, at least to some extend, share his view.
He is not interested in rational or difficult questions which when answered would destroy his opinion. The entire thread is filled with "could have been", "it's possible", "it's likely" etc conjecture.
I was accused of trying to hijack this thread yesterday.
When he couldn't (or didn't want to) answer my questions he claimed I attacked him and that he wasn't interested in my opinion. The latter is telling, as it goes against every reason he could have to start a thread on a public forum for the the sole purpose of discussion. It's pathetic!
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That seems wildly speculative.
It’s hard to believe the news coverage about Cuba was MORE intense in 1963 than it was after the Bay of Pigs or Cuban Missile crisis.
General Walker was no more anti-Communist than the average White Southerner in the early 1960s.
What Oswald may have been concerned about with Walker was his violent anti-Integration racism.
Walker was believed to have incited a riot at ‘Ole Miss’ in 1962:
“The crowd reached approximately three thousand rioters, led by former Army Major General Edwin Walker, who had recently been forced to retire when he was ordered to stop giving out racist hate literature to his troops but refused to do so. The crowd consisted of high school and college students, Ku Klux Klan members, Oxford residents, and people from outside the area.
By 9:00 p.m. the riot turned extremely violent. U.S. marshals who had been defending Meredith and university officials in the Lyceum building on campus, where Meredith registered, ran out of tear gas. Rioters threw rocks and bottles and began to shoot. President Kennedy then decided to bring in the Mississippi National Guard and Army troops from Memphis, Tennessee, during the middle of the night, led by Brigadier General Charles Billingslea...”
https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/ole-miss-riot-1962/
One of the redeeming things about Oswald was his opposition to racism and segregation. But it also might’ve been what motivated him to target Walker whom he viewed as a potential ‘Adolf Hitler’.
As for Oswald’s pro-Cuba activism, he had plenty of opportunities to target anti-Castro Cuban Exiles in New Orleans and Dallas with violence or ‘assassination’ throughout 1963.
If he were so concerned about Raids against Cuba, it seems inconsistent that he would ignore the Cuban Exiles and instead focus on Walker then Kennedy.
Full disclosure, I’m inclined to believe that Oswald was involved with JFK’s assassination (haven’t ruled out a conspiracy) but I don’t know what his motive may have been.
The claim that some obscure news article about assassination attempts on Castro in the Fall of 1963 changed Oswald seems weak when viewed in the context of all the other bad stuff between Kennedy and Cuba that we can be certain Oswald was aware of when he said nice things about JFK.
Also, Capt. Will Fritz says Oswald mentioned that US policies towards Cuba were unlikely to change in an LBJ Presidency...
It’s hard to believe the news coverage about Cuba was MORE intense in 1963 than it was after the Bay of Pigs or Cuban Missile crisis.
No one said that the coverage was more intense. However, it was intense. The antagonistic words between Castro and JFK were getting more personal. Here is a quote from Latell’s book that you might find informative. Cubela had requested a meeting with Bobby Kennedy before he would proceed with the CIA’s plan to overthrow Castro. Unbeknownst to the CIA, Cubela was telling Castro all about it. And never had any plans to actually carry out a coup.
The unlikely pair—Fidel’s premier double agent and Bobby Kennedy’s understudy—sat side by side. Sanchez translated and, back at headquarters two weeks later, prepared a memorandum for the record. It is the only surviving contemporaneous account of what is purported to have occurred. Des told Cubela that the Kennedy administration would support a coup to remove the Castro dictatorship. Ironclad assurances were given: “The United States is prepared to render all necessary assistance to any anti-communist group” that succeeds in “neutralizing the present Cuban leadership.” The implication was that a coup would be bloody and Fidel would be killed. In Senate testimony a dozen years later, Sanchez reluctantly conceded that Cubela talked that day about “getting at the leadership first.”8
Footnote 8 - Memo for the record, November 13, 1963, NARA 104-10215-10364; Nestor Sanchez CC testimony July 29, 1975; IGR; Rolando Cubela, HSCA testimony, August 28, 1978.
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I think most people, including Castro, consider Cuban Exiles "rightwing elements". They're generally the most rightwing group among Latino Americans.
I'm not totally convinced by the claims that Castro personally had foreknowledge of JFK's assassination (based on his first speculative comments about the Kennedy assassination he seemed as confused by the events as anyone else) but it seems plausible that Cuban Intelligence agents were in contact with Oswald.
But given how much Cuban Intel knew about Cuban Exile groups in the US, it seems more plausible that any alleged tips in advance about the Kennedy assassination could've came via other sources.
You don't think Castro would have loved implicating the anti-Castro groups in the assassination of JFK? If he had any evidence of it I am quite sure he would have been promoting it. Hell, his people - Fabian Escalate among others - were and have been making the claim for years without showing any evidence. And of course the Soviets were spreading disinformation about the assassination too.
I see zero credible evidence that Castro or his agents that infiltrated these groups had any knowledge of Oswald's attempt. Yes, it was Oswald. The evidence he did it plus the implausibility of alternative explanations plus fifty plus years of little (to me) evidence to the contrary leads me to believe it was him. I mean, good grief, he didn't bring curtain rods with him to work that day. And he didn't leave right after the shooting because he thought he would have the day off. He was fleeing.
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You don't think Castro would have loved implicating the anti-Castro groups in the assassination of JFK? If he had any evidence of it I am quite sure he would have been promoting it. Hell, his people - Fabian Escalate among others - were and have been making the claim for years without showing any evidence. And of course the Soviets were spreading disinformation about the assassination too.
I see zero credible evidence that Castro or his agents that infiltrated these groups had any knowledge of Oswald's attempt. Yes, it was Oswald. The evidence he did it plus the implausibility of alternative explanations plus fifty plus years of little (to me) evidence to the contrary leads me to believe it was him. I mean, good grief, he didn't bring curtain rods with him to work that day. And he didn't leave right after the shooting because he thought he would have the day off. He was fleeing.
You don't think Castro would have loved implicating the anti-Castro groups in the assassination of JFK? If he had any evidence of it I am quite sure he would have been promoting it. Hell, his people - Fabian Escalate among others - were and have been making the claim for years without showing any evidence. And of course the Soviets were spreading disinformation about the assassination too.
I see zero credible evidence that Castro or his agents that infiltrated these groups had any knowledge of Oswald's attempt.
Agreed, but better not tell Charles Collins because he doesn't want to understand that.
Yes, it was Oswald. The evidence he did it plus the implausibility of alternative explanations plus fifty plus years of little (to me) evidence to the contrary leads me to believe it was him.
Fair enough. I can see how you could make that argument, although I have another take on it. I don't find the evidence against Oswald sufficiently credible, as there are too many assumptions that need to be made and too much conflicting evidence that needs to be ignored to come to a conclusion about Oswald one way or the other.
As far as the implausibility of alternative explanations goes, one should never forget that absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense and in this case it hasn't been particularly easy or even possible to get to the actual evidence buried in the National Archives. Not that I think there will be any kind of smoking gun in the so far unreleased documents. I'm talking more about the inaccessibility of crucial physical evidence of independent testing.
I mean, good grief, he didn't bring curtain rods with him to work that day.
He probably didn't, but the problem is that we will never know for sure what he did bring. As far as I know, the TSBD was never searched for curtain rods and even if they did search it, Oswald would have had all morning to dispose of whatever was in the bag he brought. In my opinion, the curtain rods story could well have been nothing more that a white lie told to Frazier so that Oswald would not have to explain to this 19 year co-worker that he was really going to try to make up with his wife and convince her to live together again. In fact, that is was Marina and Ruth Paine testified they believed was his reason for the trip to Irving.
If Oswald really went to Irving to get his rifle, why would he go through the trouble of making a paper bag at the TSBD and conceal it for Frazier on Thursday, when he could just as easily have used one of his duffle bags to conceal the rifle in on Friday morning?
And he didn't leave right after the shooting because he thought he would have the day off. He was fleeing.
This again is one of those mysteries in this whole saga. We only have the WC version for Oswald's fast departure from the TSBD, which on so many levels doesn't make any sense. Why would he run so quickly after he had just been cleared by Truly and Baker? He worked there, so he had a good reason for being there. Instead of instantly running and call attention to himself, he could have stayed for at least a while.
The WC version of events does imply a consiousness of guilt, but none of it really adds up or makes sense. If Oswald was indeed on the run, why did he offer his taxi to a lady who needed one? Why would he return to the roominghouse when he could have taken a bus out of Dallas? The WC version of him letting the taxi stop a distance from the roominghouse raises more questions than it answers. Why would he risk going back to the roominghouse at all, if he feared police would already be there. What could have been so important for him to return to the roominghouse? When he got there, all he did was change his clothes and... if the official narrative is true, he picked up a revolver, but for what purpose? To go to a suburban go-nowhere neighborhood and kill a policeman? Too many questions have remained completely unanswered.
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No one said that the coverage was more intense. However, it was intense. The antagonistic words between Castro and JFK were getting more personal.
Well it seemed like you were implying that things were more intense between Kennedy and Castro in 1963 than prior years.
I'm familiar with Latell's book. I think it's plausible that low levels of Cuban Intelligence might've been aware of and in contact with LHO in 1963.
I'm unconvinced though that Castro had foreknowledge of any plot to kill JFK.
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You don't think Castro would have loved implicating the anti-Castro groups in the assassination of JFK? If he had any evidence of it I am quite sure he would have been promoting it. Hell, his people - Fabian Escalate among others - were and have been making the claim for years without showing any evidence. And of course the Soviets were spreading disinformation about the assassination too.
I see zero credible evidence that Castro or his agents that infiltrated these groups had any knowledge of Oswald's attempt. Yes, it was Oswald. The evidence he did it plus the implausibility of alternative explanations plus fifty plus years of little (to me) evidence to the contrary leads me to believe it was him. I mean, good grief, he didn't bring curtain rods with him to work that day. And he didn't leave right after the shooting because he thought he would have the day off. He was fleeing.
We know the DGI had spies in the radical Alpha 66 group, the Cuban Exile group that had operatives in Dallas (Oak Cliff) at the time of Kennedy's assassination.
'Leader of Exile Group Tells of Spying for Cuba'
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/11/us/leader-of-exile-group-tells-of-spying-for-cuba.html
Were they aware of or in contact with Oswald? Possibly (If the witness accounts of Oswald visiting the Harlandale Safe House are true.)
Oswald's lack of a motive and other problems with the evidence are why I remain open to the possibility that there was a Conspiracy.
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Well it seemed like you were implying that things were more intense between Kennedy and Castro in 1963 than prior years.
I'm familiar with Latell's book. I think it's plausible that low levels of Cuban Intelligence might've been aware of and in contact with LHO in 1963.
I'm unconvinced though that Castro had foreknowledge of any plot to kill JFK.
The bay of pigs resulted in JFK refusing to commit further involvement of U.S. military troops. LHO probably liked that aspect of it. The Cuban Missile Crisis resulted in a removal of the missiles without an invasion of Cuba. And with Castro and his revolution still intact. LHO probably liked those aspects of it. But the covert war against Castro and his revolution in the fall of 1963 was a very real threat.
LHO read the socialist papers that he subscribed to. And he listened to Cuban radio broadcasts on his shortwave radio. Michael Paine says in his manuscript: “One time I asked Lee what his socialist papers meant to him. He replied that he could ‘read between the lines and tell what they wanted him to do’.”
What do you think LHO thought “they wanted him to do” when he read and heard Castro threatening U.S. leaders during the height of the covert war?
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The bay of pigs resulted in JFK refusing to commit further involvement of U.S. military troops. LHO probably liked that aspect of it. The Cuban Missile Crisis resulted in a removal of the missiles without an invasion of Cuba. And with Castro and his revolution still intact. LHO probably liked those aspects of it. But the covert war against Castro and his revolution in the fall of 1963 was a very real threat.
Oswald's Fair Play For Cuba activism in 1963 (if it was genuine. I suspect it was a psyop) at least suggests that he was aware that the US under Kennedy was still hostile towards Cuba.
Despite that, Oswald still told people he liked JFK after his arrest in New Orleans.
What do you think LHO thought “they wanted him to do” when he read and heard Castro threatening U.S. leaders during the height of the covert war?
I think that's a gigantic leap.
To suggest that Oswald was radicalized by Communist and Cuban media.
The Tell for me that Oswald was not an ISIS-like "Extremist" is the fact that he claimed he was innocent.
A true Radical/Extremist would proudly take credit for accomplishing his mission (ie Timothy McVeigh).
Oswald's claim of innocence means either: A) he was really just a patsy or B) he wasn't motivated by ideology. Something else motivated him.
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Oswald's Fair Play For Cuba activism in 1963 (if it was genuine. I suspect it was a psyop) at least suggests that he was aware that the US under Kennedy was still hostile towards Cuba.
Despite that, Oswald still told people he liked JFK after his arrest in New Orleans.
I think that's a gigantic leap.
To suggest that Oswald was radicalized by Communist and Cuban media.
The Tell for me that Oswald was not an ISIS-like "Extremist" is the fact that he claimed he was innocent.
A true Radical/Extremist would proudly take credit for accomplishing his mission.
Oswald's claim of innocence means either: A) he was really just a patsy or B) he wasn't motivated by ideology. Something else motivated him.
Oswald's claim of innocence means either: A) he was really just a patsy or B) he wasn't motivated by ideology. Something else motivated him.
Now that’s a gigantic leap. The Centennial Olympic Park bomber was a radical who didn’t claim responsibly or plead guilty until over 5-years after the bombing. And even after he was apprehended he waited until his attorney came up with a plea bargain that kept him from being sentenced to death.
So, LHO’s claim doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means...
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Oswald's claim of innocence means either: A) he was really just a patsy or B) he wasn't motivated by ideology. Something else motivated him.
Now that’s a gigantic leap. The Centennial Olympic Park bomber was a radical who didn’t claim responsibly or plead guilty until over 5-years after the bombing. And even after he was apprehended he waited until his attorney came up with a plea bargain that kept him from being sentenced to death.
So, LHO’s claim doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means...
The Olympic Park Bomber may be the rare exception. I don't know enough about that case.
If you're arguing that Oswald was motivated by pro-Castro/Communist ideology, then his refusal to claim responsibility does go against the pattern of terrorists or killers who are motivated by ideology.
It seems that you're suggesting that Oswald was radicalized by Communist propaganda and a die hard believer.
Generally, people who commit violence for political motives claim responsibility for their actions. Sometimes they leave behind a manifesto.
FWIW, I think Oswald was prepared to claim responsibility for shooting Gen. Walker if he succeeded and got caught. Hence the backyard photos and the "Hunter of Fascists" stuff.
Oswald even mentioned Walker in one of the letters he wrote to his cousin in 1963.
Unlike the Walker example, Oswald left behind no pattern of animosity or disagreement with Kennedy. The Warren Commission found no evidence that he disliked Kennedy.
It doesn't appear that the hostilities between the US and Cuba from 1961 to 1963 angered Oswald enough for him to say anything negative about JFK. But he said plenty of negative things about Walker. And I believe it was Walker's Reactionary rhetoric on de-Segregation that angered Oswald, not Walker's rhetoric on Cuba.
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The Olympic Park Bomber may be the rare exception. I don't know enough about that case.
If you're arguing that Oswald was motivated by pro-Castro/Communist ideology, then his refusal to claim responsibility does go against the pattern of terrorists or killers who are motivated by ideology.
It seems that you're suggesting that Oswald was radicalized by Communist propaganda and a die hard believer.
Generally, people who commit violence for political motives claim responsibility for their actions. Sometimes they leave behind a manifesto.
FWIW, I think Oswald was prepared to claim responsibility for shooting Gen. Walker if he succeeded and got caught. Hence the backyard photos and the "Hunter of Fascists" stuff.
Oswald even mentioned Walker in one of the letters he wrote to his cousin in 1963.
Unlike the Walker example, Oswald left behind no pattern of animosity or disagreement with Kennedy. The Warren Commission found no evidence that he disliked Kennedy.
It doesn't appear that the hostilities between the US and Cuba from 1961 to 1963 angered Oswald enough for him to say anything negative about JFK. But he said plenty of negative things about Walker. And I believe it was Walker's Reactionary rhetoric on de-Segregation that angered Oswald, not Walker's rhetoric on Cuba.
If you're arguing that Oswald was motivated by pro-Castro/Communist ideology, then his refusal to claim responsibility does go against the pattern of terrorists or killers who are motivated by ideology.
Another one: Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, didn’t immediately proclaim his responsibilities upon being incarcerated...
What you appear to be ignoring, is that Jack Ruby’s murder of LHO prevented any chances that LHO might have claimed responsibility for JFK and Walker after he had obtained an attorney. Opinions on that possibility (predictably) vary...
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If you're arguing that Oswald was motivated by pro-Castro/Communist ideology, then his refusal to claim responsibility does go against the pattern of terrorists or killers who are motivated by ideology.
Another one: Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, didn’t immediately proclaim his responsibilities upon being incarcerated...
What you appear to be ignoring, is that Jack Ruby’s murder of LHO prevented any chances that LHO might have claimed responsibility for JFK and Walker after he had obtained an attorney. Opinions on that possibility (predictably) vary...
McVeigh left a long trail of evidence about his motives. He was even wearing a T-shirt with a John Wilkes Booth quote at the time of his arrest.
In contrast, no one knows why Oswald allegedly killed JFK.
And I'm not claiming that Oswald's lack of a motive exonerates him. As I said earlier, I'm inclined to believe he was involved.
What I'm objecting to is the speculation that Oswald was some sort of ideology driven extremist.
There's lots of reasons to doubt that and as a suspect with no motive and no claim of responsibility, he doesn't fit the pattern of most fanatical extremist killers.
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McVeigh left a long trail of evidence about his motives. He was even wearing a T-shirt with a John Wilkes Booth quote at the time of his arrest.
In contrast, no one knows why Oswald allegedly killed JFK.
And I'm not claiming that Oswald's lack of a motive exonerates him. As I said earlier, I'm inclined to believe he was involved.
What I'm objecting to is the speculation that Oswald was some sort of ideology driven extremist.
There's lots of reasons to doubt that and as a suspect with no motive and no claim of responsibility, he doesn't fit the pattern of most fanatical extremist killers.
Here’s a clip from a Los Angeles Times article about the officer who arrested McVeigh. I can’t help but notice how close hanger came to ending up like Tippit.
Hanger was driving north on Interstate 35 when he passed a rusting, yellow 1977 Mercury Marquis with no license plate. He stopped the car and found behind the wheel a clean-cut, 26-year-old Timothy McVeigh wearing military boots and a windbreaker.
McVeigh also wore a T-shirt with a picture of Abraham Lincoln and the words his assassin, John Wilkes Booth, shouted in Ford’s Theater: “Sic semper tyrannis.” (“Thus always to tyrants.”) On the back was a quote from Thomas Jefferson: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
McVeigh didn’t have proof of insurance or a bill of sale for the car. He told the always-suspicious Hanger that he was on a long, multi-state drive — moving to Arkansas and on his way to get more of his belongings. But there was no suitcase in the car. No change of clothes, either.
As McVeigh reached into his rear pocket for his driver’s license, his windbreaker tightened, and Hanger noticed the bulge of a shoulder holster under his left arm. McVeigh was wearing a loaded Glock pistol and had a 6-inch knife on his belt.
“My gun is loaded,” Hanger recalled McVeigh telling him as Hanger grabbed the bulge under the jacket.
“So is mine,” the trooper responded, putting his own gun to McVeigh’s head before arresting him for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon. If he hadn’t spotted the bulge, he would have let McVeigh go with a ticket.
As Hanger drove back to the Noble County Courthouse, McVeigh, sitting in the passenger seat, rattled off the serial number of his gun, correctly except for a single digit. He asked Hanger how fast his car ran, what kind of firearm he carried, how he could get his own gun back.
“I thought it was just nervous chatter,” Hanger said. “The radio was going. They were still sending units to Oklahoma City. I never made any comment about it and he never made any comment about it. I thought, ‘He’s just passing through. He doesn’t know what’s going on.’”
Hanger booked McVeigh into the Noble County Jail, inmate 95-057, and took his wife to lunch. Like everyone else, he was glued to the TV news coverage of the bombing.
As the nation searched for the bomber and public speculation lingered on men of Middle Eastern descent,McVeigh sat in a concrete cell atop the aging courthouse.
McVeigh was supposed to go before a county judge the next day, Thursday, but his hearing was delayed because the judge got tied up in a messy divorce case. The hearing was rescheduled for Friday.
Hanger was at home that morning when a dispatcher with Highway Patrol headquarters called asking if McVeigh was still in jail. Hanger doubted it, since he could easily make bail, but to his surprise McVeigh was still there, his car still parked by the interstate about 35 miles south of the Kansas state line.
McVeigh’s hearing had been delayed again, this time because the judge’s son had missed the school bus and the judge had to give the boy a ride. McVeigh probably would be seeing the judge any minute, Hanger told the dispatcher. Put a hold on him for the FBI, he was told. Now.
The trail that led to McVeigh had begun with the discovery of the Ryder truck’s rear axle.
Flung two blocks from the blast site, the axle still held the vehicle identification number, which led authorities to the rental agency and then to a motel where McVeigh had stayed, registered under his real name. Staff said he resembled a composite sketch of “John Doe No. 1,” seen near the Murrah Building before the explosion.
Authorities had learned McVeigh was in jail because Hanger had run his Social Security number through a national crime database after his arrest.
Word spread fast in Perry that something was up.
...
These days, Hanger says he was just doing his job, though he later realized that, had he made one false move, McVeigh could have shot him on that highway.
“Looking back later at who I was dealing with, what could have happened — that was more frightening than what happened that day,” Hanger said. “I often run the whole scenario back through my mind to see if there was something I missed, something I should have picked up on, and I’m just glad I didn’t let him go.”
However the main point is that even though McVeigh was arguably more radical, like LHO, he didn’t immediately proclaim his cause or guilt.
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However the main point is that even though McVeigh was arguably more radical, like LHO, he didn’t immediately proclaim his cause or guilt.
I agree but my point is McVeigh did have a clear motive based on the evidence discovered later, unlike LHO who never uttered a negative word about Kennedy according to everyone who knew him.
Even if McVeigh was killed before confessing to the OKC bombing, it was clear that he was a rightwing extremist and the bombing was connected to his ideology...
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I agree but my point is McVeigh did have a clear motive based on the evidence discovered later, unlike LHO who never uttered a negative word about Kennedy according to everyone who knew him.
Even if McVeigh was killed before confessing to the OKC bombing, it was clear that he was a rightwing extremist and the bombing was connected to his ideology...
McVeigh even wrote about it from prison. LHO didn’t get a chance.
On the eve of the assassination at the Paine residence, LHO didn’t even want to comment about the presidential visit to Dallas when Ruth Paine tried to bring it up for conversation. If LHO still liked JFK, why do you think that he tried to avoid that subject?
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McVeigh left a long trail of evidence about his motives. He was even wearing a T-shirt with a John Wilkes Booth quote at the time of his arrest.
In contrast, no one knows why Oswald allegedly killed JFK.
And I'm not claiming that Oswald's lack of a motive exonerates him. As I said earlier, I'm inclined to believe he was involved.
What I'm objecting to is the speculation that Oswald was some sort of ideology driven extremist.
There's lots of reasons to doubt that and as a suspect with no motive and no claim of responsibility, he doesn't fit the pattern of most fanatical extremist killers.
Oswald had no idea he only had 48 hours or so to live after his arrest. He thought he had years or decades. By assassinating the President, he had changed history and made his mark as a political revolutionary when he pulled the trigger. He had no incentive, however, to assist the authorities in placing legal responsibility and imposing punishment on himself. He had only his confession and the details to bargain for his life in that context. Had he lived, he likely would have waited until he had a deal before confessing. Similar to James Earl Ray.
In addition, Oswald was a nut. Nuts don't have neat "motivations" for their actions. They don't behave in the same way as normal people. So it is not surprising that Oswald's "motive" remains unclear. Only he would know for sure assuming even he could have articulated a reason. There are clues from his actions that allow us to draw logical inferences but no one can say with absolute certainty. That doesn't mean there is any doubt that he did it. Only that his motive must, by necessity, remain the product of some speculation because his actions were not those of a rational person.
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McVeigh left a long trail of evidence about his motives. He was even wearing a T-shirt with a John Wilkes Booth quote at the time of his arrest.
In contrast, no one knows why Oswald allegedly killed JFK.
And I'm not claiming that Oswald's lack of a motive exonerates him. As I said earlier, I'm inclined to believe he was involved.
What I'm objecting to is the speculation that Oswald was some sort of ideology driven extremist.
There's lots of reasons to doubt that and as a suspect with no motive and no claim of responsibility, he doesn't fit the pattern of most fanatical extremist killers.
Oswald was a completely political person. Politics was his entire life; even more important than his family. He defected to the Soviet Union and turned his back on his family (read the letters he wrote to his brother). He returned to the US, failed miserably, and wanted to defect to Cuba. He was rejected and had to return to the US.
Note: In one letter to his brother when he lived in the USSR he wrote: "In the event of war, I would kill any American who put a uniform on in defense of the American government--any American." Granted, he likely suspected that the KGB was reading the letters so he wanted to impress them with his devotion of the country. Still, it's a pretty odd thing to write.
He regularly read - even though he had little money - radical publications. He talked politics, he read politics, he lived politics. Marina said he used to sing songs to Fidel and wanted to name their first baby Fidel.
His writings indicate he loathed the American political and economic systems. He also said he hated the Soviet system. His personal writings are only about politics. The evidence for me is persuasive that he tried to shoot Walker. He called himself a Marxist (as he understood the term). If that's not someone with extreme views then I'm not sure what we would call it.
I don't believe that on November 22, 1963 that he suddenly woke up and abandoned all of this.
This is a person with extreme views. Who dresses and acts like this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HPQnsOqQfnY/Tmel8ssSYOI/AAAAAAAAhTc/hQBiAfX1ZpA/s1600/Oswald-Backyard-Photos.jpg)
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McVeigh even wrote about it from prison. LHO didn’t get a chance.
On the eve of the assassination at the Paine residence, LHO didn’t even want to comment about the presidential visit to Dallas when Ruth Paine tried to bring it up for conversation. If LHO still liked JFK, why do you think that he tried to avoid that subject?
I don’t know. Maybe he wasn’t in a good mood because of his Marriage issues.
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Oswald had no idea he only had 48 hours or so to live after his arrest. He thought he had years or decades. By assassinating the President, he had changed history and made his mark as a political revolutionary when he pulled the trigger. He had no incentive, however, to assist the authorities in placing legal responsibility and imposing punishment on himself. He had only his confession and the details to bargain for his life in that context. Had he lived, he likely would have waited until he had a deal before confessing. Similar to James Earl Ray.
In addition, Oswald was a nut. Nuts don't have neat "motivations" for their actions. They don't behave in the same way as normal people. So it is not surprising that Oswald's "motive" remains unclear. Only he would know for sure assuming even he could have articulated a reason. There are clues from his actions that allow us to draw logical inferences but no one can say with absolute certainty. That doesn't mean there is any doubt that he did it. Only that his motive must, by necessity, remain the product of some speculation because his actions were not those of a rational person.
When Castro realized that he wasn’t likely to be able to keep the nuclear missiles he wrote the Armageddon letter to Kruschev requesting a preemptive nuclear strike against the U.S. There’s nothing rational about that either...
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I don’t know. Maybe he wasn’t in a good mood because of his Marriage issues.
He was in a good enough mood to play with the kids in the yard, but not good enough to have a conversation with Ruth about JFK’s visit?
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Oswald was a completely political person. Politics was his entire life; even more important than his family. He defected to the Soviet Union and turned his back on his family (read the letters he wrote to his brother). He returned to the US, failed miserably, and wanted to defect to Cuba. He was rejected and had to return to the US.
I agree that Lee was very politically engaged but according to Robert Oswald, Lee was less enthusiastic about Communism when he returned to the US.
Maybe his time in the USSR, caused him to rethink some of his views about Communism.
Oswald wrote a speech in July 1963 where he ridiculed the Soviet system and called the US Capitalist system the “lesser evil”.
http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-oswald-speech-in-alabama
He also ridiculed the US communist movement.
Because of those things, I don’t believe he was a Communist.
He may have identified himself as a Marxist but the terms “Marxist” and “Communist” aren’t synonyms.
You can be a Marxist while not being a Communist. Marxist ideas are compatible with other Leftist political ideologies.
I think he definitely was a Leftist and critical of the US government but not a Communist in 1963.
If you believe Oswald’s own writings or the claims of George DM, Oswald criticisms of America were based on Racism and Class issues. Which suggests he was more angry at the American Right, than the Liberal wing of US politics that JFK represented.
The evidence for me is persuasive that he tried to shoot Walker. He called himself a Marxist (as he understood the term). If that's not someone with extreme views then I'm not sure what we would call it.
I define “Marxists” broadly as people who believe in Racial and Class solidarity (racial equality and unity among working class people). Marxist ideas and policies can co-exist with Capitalism. Communism cannot co-exist with Capitalism. Based on my research of the Kennedy Assassination, I don’t think Oswald viewed Marxism as synonymous with Communism.
Marxism is not radical at all to me. In fact, Abraham Lincoln was a contemporary of Karl Marx and it’s believed that he was influenced to some extent by Marx’s writings.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/07/27/you-know-who-was-into-karl-marx-no-not-aoc-abraham-lincoln/
This is a person with extreme views. Who dresses and acts like this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HPQnsOqQfnY/Tmel8ssSYOI/AAAAAAAAhTc/hQBiAfX1ZpA/s1600/Oswald-Backyard-Photos.jpg)
While I have questions about the forensic evidence in the Walker assassination attempt, I agree that Oswald had a motive in that example.
And as I mentioned earlier, I think he was prepared to accept responsibility if he was caught for that crime.
Oswald perceived Gen. Walker as a potential Adolph Hitler and probably thought he might be viewed as a hero for killing him.
Walker definitely was a Fascist and Racist and had a relatively large following. The early 1960s were a violent time for the civil rights movement. So in that context, while I don’t condone political violence, I can see how all those things together might’ve motivated Oswald to act against Walker.
I don’t see any similar pattern with Oswald and JFK.
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McVeigh even wrote about it from prison. LHO didn’t get a chance.
On the eve of the assassination at the Paine residence, LHO didn’t even want to comment about the presidential visit to Dallas when Ruth Paine tried to bring it up for conversation. If LHO still liked JFK, why do you think that he tried to avoid that subject?
Why do you assume he was “avoiding” it rather than just not being interested?
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He was in a good enough mood to play with the kids in the yard, but not good enough to have a conversation with Ruth about JFK’s visit?
I can’t speak for LHO’s state of mind but I don’t view his unwillingness to make conversation with Ruth Paine as proof of anything...
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I can’t speak for LHO’s state of mind but I don’t view his unwillingness to make conversation with Ruth Paine as proof of anything...
Neither do I. However, it is evidence that I believe should be considered in forming an opinion about whether or not LHO still liked JFK. And if considered in conjunction with the public threats of both Castro and JFK against each other that fall, and the evidence that even you indicated suggests LHO was involved in JFK’s assassination then it appears to me that perhaps LHO changed his opinion of JFK...
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Why do you assume he was “avoiding” it rather than just not being interested?
Because he actually did avoid it. I didn’t indicate why. I asked a question.
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Neither do I. However, it is evidence that I believe should be considered in forming an opinion about whether or not LHO still liked JFK. And if considered in conjunction with the public threats of both Castro and JFK against each other that fall, and the evidence that even you indicated suggests LHO was involved in JFK’s assassination then it appears to me that perhaps LHO changed his opinion of JFK...
Oswald knew JFK was against Castro when the Bay of Pigs happened in 1961. Tensions between the US and Cuba were very high from 1961 through 1963.
If the BoP and Cuban Missile Crisis didn’t turn Oswald against Kennedy, I don’t see why any reports of Covert ops against Castro in 1963 would’ve turned Oswald against Kennedy.
Also, Oswald couldn’t have known months before November 1963 that he’d have an opportunity to shoot JFK but he did know how to find anti-Castro activists in New Orleans and Dallas. Why are there no examples of Oswald resorting to violence against the anti-Castro groups? If you believe he attempted to kill Gen. Walker over Cuba, why didn’t he attempt to kill someone like Carlos Bringuer?
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Granted, he likely suspected that the KGB was reading the letters so he wanted to impress them with his devotion of the country.
Bingo. Which is what a false defector would want to do.
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"Oswald was extremely critical of President Kennedy, and he was just obsessed with what America did to support this invasion at the Bay of Pigs.... obsessed with his anger towards Kennedy...."
Volkmar Schimdt, relating a conversation he had with Oswald at a party in Dallas in February of 1963.
I find it difficult to believe that a self-described Marxist (as he understood the word) who admired Castro so much that he actually sang songs to him would also admire the president of the main enemy of that man. It makes no sense. Yes, we have DeMohrenschildt saying that Oswald "admired" JFK and Marina saying she thought he "liked" Kennedy. So one can argue it both ways.
But let's remember that Oswald "left" the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building about three minutes after the shooting. There is no evidence that at any time afterwards did he show any interest at all in what happened to Kennedy, the man he supposedly "like" or "admired." He never talked to any co-worker about the incident, he didn't stay around to find out what happened to Kennedy, he never discussed with anyone he met on his way to his rooming house the incident and when he arrived at his rooming house to discover the housekeeper watching television he never once asked her if she knew what happened.
Zero interest at all. For a politically obsessed person like Oswald that is very, very odd.
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Because he actually did avoid it. I didn’t indicate why. I asked a question.
There’s no reason to assume he avoided it, just because he didn’t engage Ruth Paine in conversation about it.
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But let's remember that Oswald "left" the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building about three minutes after the shooting. There is no evidence that at any time afterwards did he show any interest at all in what happened to Kennedy, the man he supposedly "like" or "admired." He never talked to any co-worker about the incident,
Did Oswald have a history of being chatty with his coworkers about anything?
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"Oswald was extremely critical of President Kennedy, and he was just obsessed with what America did to support this invasion at the Bay of Pigs.... obsessed with his anger towards Kennedy...."
Volkmar Schimdt, relating a conversation he had with Oswald at a party in Dallas in February of 1963.
I find it difficult to believe that a self-described Marxist (as he understood the word) who admired Castro so much that he actually sang songs to him would also admire the president of the main enemy of that man. It makes no sense. Yes, we have DeMohrenschildt saying that Oswald "admired" JFK and Marina saying she thought he "liked" Kennedy. So one can argue it both ways.
There’s a long list of witnesses who say Oswald either admired or at least didn’t dislike Kennedy. Far more people than just Marina and George DM. He was not the type of person who hid his political views (ie Gen. Walker and John Connally) so it’s odd that there’s so little evidence that he had negative opinions about Kennedy.
The WC found no concrete evidence of political motivation. That’s why they went with the “he wanted to get his name in the history books” motive.
It’s possible that Oswald liked Kennedy’s policies on Civil Rights and Russia but disliked his policies on Cuba.
Still, I’m not convinced that his views on Cuba drove him to violence. Otherwise, why would he ignore all the anti-Castro people he associated with between Dallas and New Orleans?
He had plenty of opportunities to violently target anti-Castro activists before November 1963.
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Neither do I. However, it is evidence that I believe should be considered in forming an opinion about whether or not LHO still liked JFK. And if considered in conjunction with the public threats of both Castro and JFK against each other that fall, and the evidence that even you indicated suggests LHO was involved in JFK’s assassination then it appears to me that perhaps LHO changed his opinion of JFK...
I'm not sure it is a matter of whether Oswald "liked" JFK or not. JFK was the president. Oswald viewed himself as some type of revolutionary who had already demonstrated a willingness to assassinate a public figure. The president is the symbolic representative of everything Oswald hated. And by sheer chance the opportunity fell into his lap. If the president had been Nixon, LBJ, or anyone else at that moment, he still takes the shot. It wasn't the individual but the office holder that he was targeting. I believe Oswald's political beliefs were more about himself than the political cause. In a fringe movement like Marxism, Oswald felt he could be someone important. A big fish because it is a small pond. That would not be true in mainstream American politics like being a democrat or republican. Just another sheep in his mind. So he picks a fringe political group to associate himself with and then hopes he can make his mark. The political cause is the means rather than the ends. He uses it to promote himself.
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I'm not sure it is a matter of whether Oswald "liked" JFK or not. JFK was the president. Oswald viewed himself as some type of revolutionary who had already demonstrated a willingness to assassinate a public figure. The president is the symbolic representative of everything Oswald hated. And by sheer chance the opportunity fell into his lap. If the president had been Nixon, LBJ, or anyone else at that moment, he still takes the shot. It wasn't the individual but the office holder that he was targeting. I believe Oswald's political beliefs were more about himself than the political cause. In a fringe movement like Marxism, Oswald felt he could be someone important. A big fish because it is a small pond. That would not be true in mainstream American politics like being a democrat or republican. Just another sheep in his mind. So he picks a fringe political group to associate himself with and then hopes he can make his mark. The political cause is the means rather than the ends. He uses it to promote himself.
Was Oswald just a “crazy lunatic” and his motive doesn’t matter as you claimed earlier?
Or was he driven by his ideology?
As usual you’re trying to have it both ways because the question of Motive is one that can’t be satisfactorily answered.
FWIW, Oswald’s political views were closer to JFK’s than Kruschev’s.
Clearly, Oswald was strongly opposed to Edwin Walker’s Reactionary John Birch society politics.
He was not opposed to the emerging Democratic politics of Civil Rights and Labor Rights...
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Epstein cites it here: http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/question_oswald.htm
He writes: "On October 18, 1963, according to its own records, the Cuban Foreign Ministry in Havana authorized the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City to issue a transit visa for Lee Harvey Oswald to enter Cuba. It required that Oswald also obtain a visa to enter the Soviet Union."
I believe there's a photo of the letter in the HSCA list of exhibits. It was sent from Havana to the consulate in MC but not to Oswald (he put his New Orleans address on the application).
Added: The letter is here (the date is October 15 so perhaps Epstein is referring to a different letter?): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=847&tab=page
Note: It doesn't explicitly authorize the visa or deny it either but says that: "I respectfully inform you that in order for us to comply with his request, he must inform us by cable, with prepaid reply, when he has the authorized visa of the Embassy of the U.S.S.R." In any case, this indicates that the application was sent to Havana and not tossed away. Very strange.
Yes, I don't read that letter as an approval. It appears to be just reiterating what he was told in Mexico City. That he has to the get a visa from the Soviets before the Cubans will do anything. That makes it all the more curious if, just three days later, they granted his visa without an approval for a visa from the Russians. It seems odd that whatever is the basis of the claim that his visa was approved - as referenced in a number of places - it is so difficult to locate.
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Was Oswald just a “crazy lunatic” and his motive doesn’t matter as you claimed earlier?
Or was he driven by his ideology?
As usual you’re trying to have it both ways because the question of Motive is one that can’t be satisfactorily answered.
No one is trying to have it both ways. Motive doesn't have to be proven even in a criminal law trial. If there is abundant evidence to convict, then we know that person is responsible. That is the case here. There is overwhelming evidence of Oswald's guilt even if we can't know with absolute certainty his subjective motive. Oswald did it. Oswald's motive is only a matter of historical interest. It is not relevant to the issue of his guilt. And his "ideology" and "mental state" are not mutually exclusive factors. It is possible for a nut to seek out some fringe cause to vent their anger. In fact, that is often the case.
Oswald was attracted to Marxism, in large part, because it was a fringe political element in American society. That aligned with his own feelings of being an outsider. He was also considered unique for purporting to be a Marxist. It garnered attention including requests for interviews. Something that would never have happened if Oswald was a member of a mainstream American political party. To what extent he was a true believer in Marxist ideology is unclear. It aligned with his own fantasy to be someone important. How deeply he believed in the ideology can never be known. He certainly wasn't willing to stay in the commie utopia of the Soviet Union when it involved freezing his arse off and doing menial jobs. So a logical inference is that the depth of his political leanings were superficial but still important as a vehicle for his actions. His fanaticism was mostly in himself. He was an angry, disgruntled person who wanted to cause harm to the social and political system that he blamed for his anger about his lot in life. He didn't want to view himself, however, as an angry nut. Better to spin his impulse to commit violence in terms of a political act. So that was a fantasy he concocted in his diseased brain. That he was a revolutionary figure with a noble goal rather than an angry loser. Marxism was vehicle he used. He may have to believed in it for that reason but could easily abandon it when it didn't align with his own self-interests.
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No one is trying to have it both ways.
These are your words from a few pages ago:
“Oswald was a nut. Nuts don't have neat "motivations" for their actions. They don't behave in the same way as normal people. So it is not surprising that Oswald's "motive" remains unclear.”
On one hand you dismiss speculation about his motive as irrelevant.
On the other, you seem to have a theory about his motive.
Motive doesn't have to be proven even in a criminal law trial. If there is abundant evidence to convict, then we know that person is responsible. That is the case here.
We’re not in a courtroom.
Everyone here is allowed to speculate about different elements of the Kennedy assassination but if the speculation isn’t based on reality or facts then some people will push back.
Oswald was attracted to Marxism, in large part, because it was a fringe political element in American society. That aligned with his own feelings of being an outsider. He was also considered unique for purporting to be a Marxist. It garnered attention including requests for interviews. Something that would never have happened if Oswald was a member of a mainstream American political party. To what extent he was a true believer in Marxist ideology is unclear. It aligned with his own fantasy to be someone important. How deeply he believed in the ideology can never be known. He certainly wasn't willing to stay in the commie utopia of the Soviet Union when it involved freezing his arse off and doing menial jobs. So a logical inference is that the depth of his political leanings were superficial but still important as a vehicle for his actions. His fanaticism was mostly in himself. He was an angry, disgruntled person who wanted to cause harm to the social and political system that he blamed for his anger about his lot in life. He didn't want to view himself, however, as an angry nut. Better to spin his impulse to commit violence in terms of a political act. So that was a fantasy he concocted in his diseased brain. That he was a revolutionary figure with a noble goal rather than an angry loser. Marxism was vehicle he used. He may have to believed in it for that reason but could easily abandon it when it didn't align with his own self-interests.
Fair points
I agree that it’s unclear how dedicated Oswald was to Marxist ideology.
I do believe he was broadly a Left-leaning Contrarian based on his own writings and the stuff George DeMorhenschildt said about his conversations with Oswald. But not a diehard Communist.
I’m not convinced that he could’ve been motivated by devotion to Castro or Communism.
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There is overwhelming evidence of Oswald's guilt even if we can't know with absolute certainty his subjective motive.
So you keep claiming, while never offering any.
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I'm not sure it is a matter of whether Oswald "liked" JFK or not. JFK was the president. Oswald viewed himself as some type of revolutionary who had already demonstrated a willingness to assassinate a public figure. The president is the symbolic representative of everything Oswald hated. And by sheer chance the opportunity fell into his lap. If the president had been Nixon, LBJ, or anyone else at that moment, he still takes the shot. It wasn't the individual but the office holder that he was targeting. I believe Oswald's political beliefs were more about himself than the political cause. In a fringe movement like Marxism, Oswald felt he could be someone important. A big fish because it is a small pond. That would not be true in mainstream American politics like being a democrat or republican. Just another sheep in his mind. So he picks a fringe political group to associate himself with and then hopes he can make his mark. The political cause is the means rather than the ends. He uses it to promote himself.
Yes, I agree with that. However, after learning more details about the covert war between Cuba and the U.S. during the fall of 1963, I believe there is credible evidence that Castro at least suspected that LHO might take a shot at JFK on 11/22/63. And in keeping with the idea of an open mind, I don’t want to exclude that possibility. The evidence suggests that LHO conceived and implemented his plan without outside help. And that the opportunity did, by chance, fall into his lap. And I do believe that it is feasible that LHO actually did threaten to kill JFK while leaving the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City as reported. And if so, it is reasonable to believe that the DGI agents probably would have tracked LHO to Dallas, TX, even if only for surveillance.
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Yes, I agree with that. However, after learning more details about the covert war between Cuba and the U.S. during the fall of 1963, I believe there is credible evidence that Castro at least suspected that LHO might take a shot at JFK on 11/22/63. And in keeping with the idea of an open mind, I don’t want to exclude that possibility. The evidence suggests that LHO conceived and implemented his plan without outside help. And that the opportunity did, by chance, fall into his lap. And I do believe that it is feasible that LHO actually did threaten to kill JFK while leaving the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City as reported. And if so, it is reasonable to believe that the DGI agents probably would have tracked LHO to Dallas, TX, even if only for surveillance.
I think it is possible that Oswald vowed to commit some violent act to convince the Cubans of his sincerity to the cause. I doubt, however, that it involved a direct threat to JFK since Oswald would have had no way to know the opportunity would ever arise at the time he was in Mexico City. It would not have been until the week of the assassination that he would have any clue that opportunity would present itself. And he made no apparent effort after returning to the US to track down JFK. He may have told them he was the one who tried to kill Walker to impress them with his dedication. The Cubans likely thought he was a nut or some type of CIA plant. After the assassination, they would be reluctant to admit that Oswald made any threat for fear it would be used against them as pretext for linking them to Oswald in a plan to assassinate JFK. So they did some CYA. I doubt Oswald's visit to Mexico City - even if he made promises to commit violent acts - would rise to the level of anything told to Castro before the assassination.
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Yes, I don't read that letter as an approval. It appears to be just reiterating what he was told in Mexico City. That he has to the get a visa from the Soviets before the Cubans will do anything. That makes it all the more curious if, just three days later, they granted his visa without an approval for a visa from the Russians. It seems odd that whatever is the basis of the claim that his visa was approved - as referenced in a number of places - it is so difficult to locate.
Right, but the intriguing thing to me is that they processed his application. Why not just throw it away? He's viewed as a crank, an oddball that they wanted nothing to do with. And then they sent it on? Mirabal signed off on it; and he said that he thought Oswald might have been a "provocateur" sent to cause problems.
As to finding it: again, it would be given contingent on him presenting a Soviet visa. He shows them his Soviet visa and they give him a transit visa.
But our conspiracy friends can answer all of this: it wasn't Oswald. It was a double. Two Oswalds, two rifles, two Zapruder films (at least), two gunmen, two autopsies.....it never ends.
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Right, but the intriguing thing to me is that they processed his application. Why not just throw it away? He's viewed as a crank, an oddball that they wanted nothing to do with. And then they sent it on? Mirabal signed off on it; and he said that he thought Oswald might have been a "provocateur" sent to cause problems.
As to finding it: again, it would be given contingent on him presenting a Soviet visa. He shows them his Soviet visa and they give him a transit visa.
But our conspiracy friends can answer all of this: it wasn't Oswald. It was a double. Two Oswalds, two rifles, two Zapruder films (at least), two gunmen, two autopsies.....it never ends.
Oswald: I'm innocent.
CT Judge: Okay, you can go.
Oswald: [SMIRK]
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Right, but the intriguing thing to me is that they processed his application. Why not just throw it away? He's viewed as a crank, an oddball that they wanted nothing to do with. And then they sent it on? Mirabal signed off on it; and he said that he thought Oswald might have been a "provocateur" sent to cause problems.
As to finding it: again, it would be given contingent on him presenting a Soviet visa. He shows them his Soviet visa and they give him a transit visa.
But our conspiracy friends can answer all of this: it wasn't Oswald. It was a double. Two Oswalds, two rifles, two Zapruder films (at least), two gunmen, two autopsies.....it never ends.
In Dallas Oswald kept a low-profile and didn't do much to draw attention to himself.
In New Orleans and Mexico City, he did everything but keep a low profile. He did lots of things to draw attention to himself.
Despite all that, there are no photos of him in Mexico City. I don't think that is coincidental.
The most obvious possibility is that it was a charade and he was being used as some sort of Intelligence asset (witting or unwitting).
The intent of the project may have had more to do with FBI/CIA attempts to sabotage the Fair Play For Cuba organization than a conspiracy to make Oswald look suspicious weeks before the Kennedy assassination.
There's too much smoke around Mexico City to say that all the weird stuff was just coincidental...
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Right, but the intriguing thing to me is that they processed his application. Why not just throw it away? He's viewed as a crank, an oddball that they wanted nothing to do with. And then they sent it on? Mirabal signed off on it; and he said that he thought Oswald might have been a "provocateur" sent to cause problems.
As to finding it: again, it would be given contingent on him presenting a Soviet visa. He shows them his Soviet visa and they give him a transit visa.
But our conspiracy friends can answer all of this: it wasn't Oswald. It was a double. Two Oswalds, two rifles, two Zapruder films (at least), two gunmen, two autopsies.....it never ends.
I wonder if it actually ever was granted. Or whether the letter you noted has been misconstrued as granting his request and others simply repeated that over the years. I don't know for sure. Maybe someone here has the document demonstrating that his Cuban visa was granted. If it was, it was likely just processed by the bureaucracy. Maybe they had a policy to automatically do so with the understanding that the Russians were ultimately in control of whoever they wanted to allow into their country. I vaguely recall reading something along those lines but can't remember where.
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In Dallas Oswald kept a low-profile and didn't do much to draw attention to himself.
In New Orleans and Mexico City, he did everything but keep a low profile. He did lots of things to draw attention to himself.
Despite all that, there are no photos of him in Mexico City. I don't think that is coincidental.
The most obvious possibility is that it was a charade and he was being used as some sort of Intelligence asset (witting or unwitting).
The intent of the project may have had more to do with FBI/CIA attempts to sabotage the Fair Play For Cuba organization than a conspiracy to make Oswald look suspicious weeks before the Kennedy assassination.
There's too much smoke around Mexico City to say that all the weird stuff was just coincidental...
Why would there be pictures of him in Mexico City? What did he do to publicly draw attention to himself? The only thing he did in Mexico City to draw attention was cause a disturbance inside the Cuban consulate and then inside the Soviet Embassy. Again, inside both buildings. If there would be photos of him the Cuban and/or Soviet would have taken them.
If his or a purpose was to somehow embarrass the FPCC (yes, I am aware of the Angleton/CI/Jane Roman matter) with his behavior, how is acting rudely inside these building embarrassing the FPCC? The only people who would know about his behavior are Cuban and Soviet officials.
And the HSCA answered why the CIA failed to photograph him on Friday. Incompetence.
According to eyewitnesses - and his account as related by Marina - he simply went to the local restaurant, ate there and returned to his room. He did supposedly watched a bull fight.
I don't see how you think he did things in Mexico City that would lead to him being photographed. And if the CIA was somehow trying to discredit the FPCC this is an odd way to do it. How is acting rude to Cubans - and only Cubans - discrediting the FPCC.
I think you are seeing things that aren't there.
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Why would there be pictures of him in Mexico City? What did he do to publicly draw attention to himself? The only thing he did in Mexico City to draw attention was cause a disturbance inside the Cuban consulate and then inside the Soviet Embassy. Again, inside both buildings. If there would be photos of him the Cuban and/or Soviet would have taken them.
Embassies generally are under the constant surveillance of one or more governments. It seems almost unbelievable that he wasn't photographed entering or leaving the Soviet or Cuban embassies.
And I'm not arguing that he didn't really visit the Cubans and Soviets. I think maybe it was intentional, not a coincidence. I do think Oswald was being directed by someone with Intelligence ties.
He did just enough to make sure people in intelligence circles knew he was there.
If his or a purpose was to somehow embarrass the FPCC (yes, I am aware of the Angleton/CI/Jane Roman matter) with his behavior, how is acting rudely inside these building embarrassing the FPCC? The only people who would know about his behavior are Cuban and Soviet officials.
I think Oswald's public persona in New Orleans and clashing with the DRE was intended to create bad PR for the FPCC. I suspect the strange trip to Mexico City might've been related to the activities New Orleans but am less certain of that.
He certainly made himself visible to spies in Mexico City. But you're right, I'm not sure if we'd ever know about his visit to Mexico City if it didn't get revealed through investigations.
According to eyewitnesses - and his account as related by Marina - he simply went to the local restaurant, ate there and returned to his room. He did supposedly watched a bull fight.
Other witnesses say he appeared at a party in Mexico City with Sylvia Duran and some Cubans.
He also stayed at a hotel that was known as a meeting spot for Cuban Intel (according to Amb. Thomas Mann)
Marina only knows what Lee wanted her to know. She wasn't with him in Mexico City.
I don't see how you think he did things in Mexico City that would lead to him being photographed.
If you visit an embassy you will be photographed by someone (likely without your knowledge). That's just a fact 9 times out of 10.
Look at the Jamaal Khasoggi incident for example. The Turks had the Saudi embassy under video and audio surveillance.
I think even in the early 60's there were ways to surveil embassies 24-7.
And if the CIA was somehow trying to discredit the FPCC this is an odd way to do it. How is acting rude to Cubans - and only Cubans - discrediting the FPCC.
We know the CIA and FBI wanted to plant some bad publicity for the FPCC around the time of Summer/Fall of 1963. It could be coincidental but the overlap between their objectives and Oswald's sudden interest in the FPCC shouldn't be ignored.
From JFKFacts:
“As historian David Kaiser revealed in his deeply researched book “The Road to Dallas,” COINTELPRO targeted the pro-Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee for disruption and discrediting in the summer of 1963. At the time Lee Harvey Oswald was founding his own chapter of the FPCC in New Orleans — over the written objections of the FPCC’s leadership.
As Bill Simpich documents in his revelatory and important ebook, “State Secret,” the FBI and the CIA’s counterintelligence staff worked together on a program to discredit the FPCC 1963 throughout the fall of 1963.
Here’s the CIA’s Sept. 16, 1963 memo to the FBI about the operation to discredit the FPCC “in foreign countries.”
The author of the memo, John Tilton, was a supervisor of George Joannides, the Miami-based undercover officer whose paid assets in the Cuban Student Directorate (DRE) publicized and denounced Oswald’s pro-Castro activities in New Orleans in August 1963.
https://jfkfacts.org/the-jfk-connection-why-cointelpro-still-matters/
All roads lead to Angleton...
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I think it is possible that Oswald vowed to commit some violent act to convince the Cubans of his sincerity to the cause. I doubt, however, that it involved a direct threat to JFK since Oswald would have had no way to know the opportunity would ever arise at the time he was in Mexico City. It would not have been until the week of the assassination that he would have any clue that opportunity would present itself. And he made no apparent effort after returning to the US to track down JFK. He may have told them he was the one who tried to kill Walker to impress them with his dedication. The Cubans likely thought he was a nut or some type of CIA plant. After the assassination, they would be reluctant to admit that Oswald made any threat for fear it would be used against them as pretext for linking them to Oswald in a plan to assassinate JFK. So they did some CYA. I doubt Oswald's visit to Mexico City - even if he made promises to commit violent acts - would rise to the level of anything told to Castro before the assassination.
I doubt Oswald's visit to Mexico City - even if he made promises to commit violent acts - would rise to the level of anything told to Castro before the assassination.
I beg to differ. Here are a couple of quotes from “Castro’s Secrets” by Brian Latell:
I confess that many times I have meditated on the dramatic story of John F. Kennedy.
It was my fate to live through the era when he was the greatest and most dangerous adversary of the Revolution.
—Fidel Castro, April 24, 2009
Some walk-ins are turned away at the doors of foreign embassies when they arrive cold, without warning or sensitive documents...
...The Cubans, in contrast, usually are less cautious when approached by strangers offering to help. Aspillaga told me that “Cuba is freer”; the philosophy generally is “You take what comes.” Exaggerating to make the point, he added, “If a million people come, we would handle the million people.” In countries all over the world, true believers in Fidel and his revolution have volunteered their services this way, literally knocking on the doors of Cuban embassies. John F. Kennedy’s assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, was one of them.
Castro was very much hands-on in charge of the DGI. Most of the people that LHO encountered at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City were DGI assets. If LHO did threaten to kill JFK, then I believe that Castro would have been told about it.
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Embassies generally are under the constant surveillance of one or more governments. It seems almost unbelievable that he wasn't photographed entering or leaving the Soviet or Cuban embassies.
And I'm not arguing that he didn't really visit the Cubans and Soviets. I think maybe it was intentional, not a coincidence. I do think Oswald was being directed by someone with Intelligence ties.
He did just enough to make sure people in intelligence circles knew he was there.
I think Oswald's public persona in New Orleans and clashing with the DRE was intended to create bad PR for the FPCC. I suspect the strange trip to Mexico City might've been related to the activities New Orleans but am less certain of that.
He certainly made himself visible to spies in Mexico City. But you're right, I'm not sure if we'd ever know about his visit to Mexico City if it didn't get revealed through investigations.
Other witnesses say he appeared at a party in Mexico City with Sylvia Duran and some Cubans.
He also stayed at a hotel that was known as a meeting spot for Cuban Intel (according to Amb. Thomas Mann)
Marina only knows what Lee wanted her to know. She wasn't with him in Mexico City.
If you visit an embassy you will be photographed by someone (likely without your knowledge). That's just a fact 9 times out of 10.
Look at the Jamaal Khasoggi incident for example. The Turks had the Saudi embassy under video and audio surveillance.
I think even in the early 60's there were ways to surveil embassies 24-7.
We know the CIA and FBI wanted to plant some bad publicity for the FPCC around the time of Summer/Fall of 1963. It could be coincidental but the overlap between their objectives and Oswald's sudden interest in the FPCC shouldn't be ignored.
From JFKFacts:
“As historian David Kaiser revealed in his deeply researched book “The Road to Dallas,” COINTELPRO targeted the pro-Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee for disruption and discrediting in the summer of 1963. At the time Lee Harvey Oswald was founding his own chapter of the FPCC in New Orleans — over the written objections of the FPCC’s leadership.
As Bill Simpich documents in his revelatory and important ebook, “State Secret,” the FBI and the CIA’s counterintelligence staff worked together on a program to discredit the FPCC 1963 throughout the fall of 1963.
Here’s the CIA’s Sept. 16, 1963 memo to the FBI about the operation to discredit the FPCC “in foreign countries.”
The author of the memo, John Tilton, was a supervisor of George Joannides, the Miami-based undercover officer whose paid assets in the Cuban Student Directorate (DRE) publicized and denounced Oswald’s pro-Castro activities in New Orleans in August 1963.
https://jfkfacts.org/the-jfk-connection-why-cointelpro-still-matters/
All roads lead to Angleton...
In 1963, the surveillance methods would have been a lot more primitive than they are today. That is not a valid comparison. In addition, who is to say the CIA didn't take pictures of Oswald or have other information relating to his visit? After his death, they would have no incentive to release such pictures and reveal to the Cubans and Russians their sources for obtaining information. Anything they revealed about Oswald's visit could be reversed engineered to learn its source and if the CIA had any information that should have made Oswald more suspicious then better to cover it up and not be subject to criticism for failing to keep a closer eye on him. Intelligence agencies never like to reveal anything. All of Oswald's actions are consistent with those of a political kook. It is easy to graft onto his actions some type of fantastic James Bond narrative but there is no credible evidence. If he made himself "visible" it was in the pursuit of his nutty fantasy of becoming some type of revolutionary figure. That necessitated associating himself with folks who were in the Cuban or Russian intelligence community (basically anyone at those embassies). But that doesn't mean he was being directed by anyone. It is entirely consistent with Oswald's erratic behavior.
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In 1963, the surveillance methods would have been a lot more primitive than they are today. That is not a valid comparison. In addition, who is to say the CIA didn't take pictures of Oswald or have other information relating to his visit? After his death, they would have no incentive to release such pictures and reveal to the Cubans and Russians their sources for obtaining information. Anything they revealed about Oswald's visit could be reversed engineered to learn its source and if the CIA had any information that should have made Oswald more suspicious then better to cover it up and not be subject to criticism for failing to keep a closer eye on him. Intelligence agencies never like to reveal anything. All of Oswald's actions are consistent with those of a political kook. It is easy to graft onto his actions some type of fantastic James Bond narrative but there is no credible evidence. If he made himself "visible" it was in the pursuit of his nutty fantasy of becoming some type of revolutionary figure. That necessitated associating himself with folks who were in the Cuban or Russian intelligence community (basically anyone at those embassies). But that doesn't mean he was being directed by anyone. It is entirely consistent with Oswald's erratic behavior.
The CIA did release photos of that "mystery" person who they suspected on Monday may have been Oswald that visited the Soviet Embassy. But that was a major screwup - bureaucracies do what bureaucracies do - and had nothing to do with someone impersonating Oswald. The Soviet Embassy officials/KGB senior agents were shown photos of the "mystery" person and all said it wasn't the person who said he was Oswald. They said the man they met who identified himself as Oswald was the man arrested for assassinating JFK: that is, Oswald.
In any case, if they were worried about revealing sources and methods then why did they release those photos? I don't think they had any photos of him; the camera was down and for some reason they didn't cover the embassy on weekends. We like to think that the CIA is some sort of top flight organization that is in control of things but we need to remember it's also a bureaucracy that sometimes just is incompetent.
Again though: how is photographing Oswald going into the Cuban consulate or Soviet Embassy part of any plan to discredit the FPCC? I just don't see how his trip to MC can be considered part of any counter intelligence operation to make the FPCC look bad. Sure, he embarrassed himself to some Cubans and Soviets. But had he not assassinated JFK that would never have been known except by the people involved.
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The CIA did release photos of that "mystery" person who they suspected on Monday may have been Oswald that visited the Soviet Embassy. But that was a major screwup - bureaucracies do what bureaucracies do - and had nothing to do with someone impersonating Oswald. The Soviet Embassy officials/KGB senior agents were shown photos of the "mystery" person and all said it wasn't the person who said he was Oswald. They said the man they met who identified himself as Oswald was the man arrested for assassinating JFK: that is, Oswald.
In any case, if they were worried about revealing sources and methods then why did they release those photos? I don't think they had any photos of him; the camera was down and for some reason they didn't cover the embassy on weekends. We like to think that the CIA is some sort of top flight organization that is in control of things but we need to remember it's also a bureaucracy that sometimes just is incompetent.
Again though: how is photographing Oswald going into the Cuban consulate or Soviet Embassy part of any plan to discredit the FPCC? I just don't see how his trip to MC can be considered part of any counter intelligence operation to make the FPCC look bad. Sure, he embarrassed himself to some Cubans and Soviets. But had he not assassinated JFK that would never have been known except by the people involved.
They could have been inept or they could used this as an opportunity to make themselves look inept to the Russians/Cubans. Let's say they had a hundred pictures of Oswald from a dozen locations and were really on the ball. But they release a picture of someone they know is not Oswald to give the Russians/Cubans the impression that their surveillance is spotty instead. I'm not saying that is what happened. They may simply have not been taking pictures of everyone who entered a Cuban or Russian embassy around the entire world. That would be quite a task. It wouldn't surprise me that, in 1963, not everyone was photographed. Today they probably can do it but not then. Regardless, there are a number of plausible explanations for why there was no picture of Oswald. I was just responding to the claim that the lack of any photograph is indicative of Oswald being some type of agent.
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I don't think they had any photos of him; the camera was down and for some reason they didn't cover the embassy on weekends.
Which is exactly why I suggested it maybe was intentional that he wasn’t photographed, not a coincidence.
Only a CIA insider would know when the cameras were Offline if there was some sort of schedule.
Someone with that kind of knowledge could’ve been involved with the whole charade that brought Oswald to Mexico City.
We like to think that the CIA is some sort of top flight organization that is in control of things but we need to remember it's also a bureaucracy that sometimes just is incompetent.
The CIA is very compartmentalized. There are different departments within the agency working independently of each other.
It’s likely that some folks at Langley knew more about Oswald than the CIA employees in Mexico City.
Again though: how is photographing Oswald going into the Cuban consulate or Soviet Embassy part of any plan to discredit the FPCC? I just don't see how his trip to MC can be considered part of any counter intelligence operation to make the FPCC look bad. Sure, he embarrassed himself to some Cubans and Soviets. But had he not assassinated JFK that would never have been known except by the people involved.
I’ll grant you that I don’t know for certain the purpose of Oswald’s Mexico City trip. It may have been related to what he was doing in New Orleans or it may have been completely unrelated. I don’t really know for sure.
There is much about the Mexico City episode that we’ll never know because there was an Intelligence Cover-Up. Some people didn’t want to open that can of worms. Not just the CIA. Mexican Intelligence and Cuban Intelligence may have covered up some info too.
The little that we do know makes me think the goal of Oswald going to Cuba was just a charade and that one real objective was to put Oswald in a position where he would attract the attention of international Intelligence agents.
In espionage, that’s called a “Dangle”.
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We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans with the objective of gaining entry into Cuba. It is plausible that he mentioned his attempt on Walker while in Mexico City as part of that process. Or made some reference to a willingness to commit violence on behalf of Castro. The Cubans probably thought he was a nut. They would not have informed Castro about some nut who showed up in Mexico City.
After the fact, the Cubans might have believed Oswald was some type of CIA asset who was sent to implicate them in the assassination. So they cover up whatever threat Oswald made. And it could not have related to JFK since Oswald would have had no idea at that time that he would ever have an opportunity to assassinate him. It would have been more general such as a promise to commit some bold or violent act. Later on, once the incident could no longer be used as a pretext for war, Castro would have used the incident to enhance his reputation as someone with knowledge about the JFK assassination.
We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans...
We do? ::)
Talk about wild ass conspiracy theories! Speculate us to death now. The Cubans probably thought he was a nut...They would not have informed Castro...
Uh...wasn't Castro a Cuban? :D