JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: John Mytton on October 20, 2018, 01:57:13 AM
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Conclusions
This Commission was created to ascertain the facts relating to the preceding summary of events and to consider the important questions which they raised. The Commission has addressed itself to this task and has reached certain conclusions based on all the available evidence. No limitations have been placed on the Commission's inquiry; it has conducted its own investigation, and all Government agencies have fully discharged their responsibility to cooperate with the Commission in its investigation. These conclusions represent the reasoned judgment of all members of the Commission and are presented after an investigation which has satisfied the Commission that it: has ascertained the truth concerning the assassination of President Kennedy to the extent that a prolonged and thorough search makes this possible.
The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the sixth floor window at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository. This determination is based upon the following:
(a) Witnesses at the scene of the assassination saw a rifle being fired from the sixth floor window of the Depository Building, and some witnesses saw a rifle in the window immediately after the shots were fired.
(b) The nearly whole bullet found on Governor Connally's stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital and the two bullet fragments found in the front seat of the Presidential limousine were fired from the 6.5- millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository Building to the exclusion of all other weapons.
(c) The three used cartridge cases found near the window on the sixth floor at the southeast corner of the building were fired from the same rifle which fired the above-described bullet and fragments, to the exclusion of all other weapons.
(d) The windshield in the Presidential limousine was struck by a bullet fragment on the inside surface of the glass, but was not penetrated.
(e) The nature of the bullet wounds suffered by President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the location of the car at the time of the shots establish that the bullets were fired from above and behind the Presidential limousine, striking the President and the Governor as follows:
President Kennedy was first struck by a bullet which entered at the back of his neck and exited through the lower front portion of his neck, causing a wound which would not necessarily have been lethal. The President was struck a second time by a bullet which entered the right-rear portion of his head, causing a massive and fatal wound.
Governor Connally was struck by a bullet which entered on the right side of his back and traveled downward through the right side of his chest, exiting below his right nipple. This bullet then passed through his right wrist and entered his left thigh where it caused a superficial wound.
(f)There is no credible evidence that the shots were fired from the Triple Underpass, ahead of the motorcade, or from any other location.
The weight of the evidence indicates that there were three shots fired.
Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot hit Governor Connally, there is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President's throat also caused Governor Connally's wounds. However, Governor Connally's testimony and certain other factors have given rise to some difference of opinion as to this probability but there is no question in the mind of any member of the Commission that all the shots which caused the President's and Governor Connally's wounds were fired from the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.
The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired by Lee Harvey Oswald. This conclusion is based upon the following:
(a)The Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle from which the shots were fired was owned by and in the possession of Oswald.
(b)Oswald carried this rifle into the Depository Building on the morning of November 22, 1963.
(c)Oswald, at the time of the assassination, was present at the window from which the shots were fired.
(d)Shortly after the assassination, the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle belonging to Oswald was found partially hidden between some cartons on the sixth floor and the improvised paper bag in which Oswald brought the rifle to the Depository was found dose by the window from which the shots were fired.
(e)Based on testimony of the experts and their analysis of films of the assassination, the Commission has concluded that a rifleman of Lee Harvey Oswald's capabilities could have fired the shots from the rifle used in the assassination within the elapsed time of the shooting. The Commission has concluded further that Oswald possessed the capability with a rifle which enabled him to commit the assassination.
(f)Oswald lied to the police after his arrest concerning important substantive matters.
(g)Oswald had attempted to kill Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker (Retired, U.S. Army) on April 10, 1963, thereby demonstrating his disposition to take human life.
Oswald killed Dallas Police Patrolman J. D. Tippit approximately 45 minutes after the assassination. This conclusion upholds the finding that Oswald fired the shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally and is supported by the following:
(a) Two eyewitnesses saw the Tippit shooting and seven eyewitnesses heard the shots and saw the gunman leave the scene with revolver in hand. These nine eyewitnesses positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man they saw.
(b) The cartridge cases found at the scene of the shooting were fired from the revolver in the possession of Oswald at the time of his arrest to the exclusion of all other weapons.
(c) The revolver in Oswald's possession at the time of his arrest was purchased by and belonged to Oswald.
(d) Oswald's jacket was found along the path of flight taken by the gunman as he fled from the scene of the killing.
Within 80 minutes of the assassination and 35 minutes of the Tippit killing Oswald resisted arrest at the theatre by attempting to shoot another Dallas police officer.
The Commission has reached the following conclusions concerning Oswald's interrogation and detention by the Dallas police:
(a) Except for the force required to effect his arrest, Oswald was not subjected to any physical coercion by any law enforcement officials. He was advised that he could not be compelled to give any information and that any statements made by him might be used against him in court. He was advised of his right to counsel. He was given the opportunity to obtain counsel of his own choice and was offered legal assistance by the Dallas Bar Association, which he rejected at that time.
(b) Newspaper, radio, and television reporters were allowed uninhibited access to the area through which Oswald had to pass when he was moved from his cell to the interrogation room and other sections of the building, thereby subjecting Oswald to harassment and creating chaotic conditions which were not conducive to orderly interrogation or the protection of the rights of the prisoner.
(c) The numerous statements, sometimes erroneous, made to the press by various local law enforcement officials, during this period of confusion and disorder in the police station, would have presented serious obstacles to the obtaining of a fair trial for Oswald. To the extent that the information was erroneous or misleading, it helped to create doubts, speculations, and fears in the mind of the public which might otherwise not have arisen.
The Commission has reached the following conclusions concerning the killing of Oswald by Jack Ruby on November 24, 1963:
(a) Ruby entered the basement of the Dallas Police Department shortly after 11:17 a.m. and killed Lee Harvey Oswald at 11:21 a.m.
(b) Although the evidence on Ruby's means of entry is not conclusive, the weight of the evidence indicates that he walked down the ramp leading from Main Street to the basement of the police department.
(c) There is no evidence to support the rumor that Ruby may have been assisted by any members of the Dallas Police Department in the killing of Oswald.
(d) The Dallas Police Department's decision to transfer Oswald to the county jail in full public view was unsound. The arrangements made by the police department on Sunday morning, only a few hours before the attempted transfer, were inadequate. Of critical importance was the fact that news media representatives and others were not excluded from the basement even after the police were notified of threats to Oswald's life. These deficiencies contributed to the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
The Commission has found no evidence that either Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby was part of any conspiracy, domestic or foreign, to assassinate President Kennedy. The reasons for this conclusion are:
(a) The Commission has found no evidence that anyone assisted Oswald in planning or carrying out the assassination. In this connection it has thoroughly investigated, among other factors, the circumstances surrounding the planning of the motorcade route through Dallas, the hiring of Oswald by the Texas School Book Depository Co. on October 15, 1963, the method by which the rifle was brought into the building, the placing of cartons of books at the window, Oswald's escape from the building, and the testimony of eyewitnesses to the shooting.
(b) The Commission has found no evidence that Oswald was involved with any person or group in a conspiracy to assassinate the President, although it has thoroughly investigated, in addition to other possible leads, all facets of Oswald's associations, finances, and personal habits, particularly during the period following his return from the Soviet Union in June 1962.
(c) The Commission has found no evidence to show that Oswald was employed, persuaded, or encouraged by any foreign government to assassinate President Kennedy or that he was an agent of any foreign government, although the Commission has reviewed the circumstances surrounding Oswald's defection to the Soviet Union, his life there from October of 1959 to June of 1962 so far as it can be reconstructed, his known contacts with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and his visits to the Cuban and Soviet Embassies in Mexico City during his trip to Mexico from
September 26 to October 3, 1963, and his known contacts with the Soviet Embassy in the United States.
(d) The Commission has explored all attempts of Oswald to identify himself with various political groups, including the Communist Party, U.S.A., the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and the Socialist Workers Party, and has been unable to find any evidence that the contacts which he initiated were related to Oswald's subsequent assassination of the President.
(e) All of the evidence before the Commission established that there was nothing to support the speculation that Oswald was an agent, employee, or informant of the FBI, the CIA, or any other governmental agency. It has thoroughly investigated Oswald's relationships prior to the assassination with all agencies of the U.S. Government. All contacts with Oswald by any of these agencies were made in the regular exercise of their different responsibilities.
(f) No direct or indirect relationship between Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby has been discovered by the Commission, nor has it been able to find any credible evidence that either knew the other, although a thorough investigation was made of the many rumors and speculations of such a relationship.
(g) The Commission has found no evidence that Jack Ruby acted with any other person in the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.
(h) After careful investigation the Commission has found no credible evidence either that Ruby and Officer Tippit, who was killed by Oswald, knew each other or that Oswald and Tippit knew each other.
Because of the difficulty of proving negatives to a certainty the possibility of others being involved with either Oswald or Ruby cannot be established categorically, but if there is any such evidence it has been beyond the reach of all the investigative agencies and resources of the United States and has not come to the attention of this Commission.
In its entire investigation the Commission has found no evidence of conspiracy, subversion, or disloyalty to the U.S. Government by any Federal, State, or local official.
On the basis of the evidence before the Commission it concludes that Oswald acted alone. Therefore, to determine the motives for the assassination of President Kennedy, one must look to the assassin himself. Clues to Oswald's motives can be found in his family history, his education or lack of it, his acts, his writings, and the recollections of those who had close contacts with him throughout his life. The Commission has presented with this report all of the background information bearing on motivation which it could discover. Thus, others may study Lee Oswald's life and arrive at their own conclusions as to his possible motives.
The Commission could not make any definitive determination of Oswald's motives. It has endeavored to isolate factors which contributed to his character and which might have influenced his decision to assassinate President Kennedy. These factors were:
(a) His deep-rooted resentment of all authority which was expressed in a hostility toward every society in which he lived;
(b) His inability to enter into meaningful relationships with people, and a continuous pattern of rejecting his environment favor of new surrounding;
(c) His urge to try to find a place in history and despair at times over failures in his various undertakings;
(d) His capacity for violence as evidenced by his attempt to kill General Walker;
(e) His avowed commitment to Marxism and communism, as he understood the terms and developed his own interpretation of them; this was expressed by his antagonism toward the United States, by his defection to the Soviet Union, by his failure to be reconciled with life in the United States even after his disenchantment with the Soviet Union, and by his efforts, though frustrated, to go to Cuba.
Each of these contributed to his capacity to risk all in cruel and irresponsible actions.
The Commission recognizes that the varied responsibilities of the President require that he make frequent trips to all parts of the United States and abroad. Consistent with their high responsibilities Presidents can never be protected from every potential threat. The Secret Service's difficulty in meeting its protective responsibility varies with the activities and the nature of the occupant of the Office of President and his willingness to conform to plans for his safety. In appraising the performance of the Secret Service it should be understood that it has to do its work within such limitations. Nevertheless, the Commission believes that recommendations for improvements in Presidential protection are compelled by the facts disclosed in this investigation.
(a) The complexities of the Presidency have increased so rapidly in recent years that the Secret Service has not been able to develop or to secure adequate resources of personnel and facilities to fulfill its important assignment. This situation should be promptly remedied.
(b) The Commission has concluded that the criteria and procedures of the Secret Service designed to identify and protect against persons considered threats to the president, were not adequate prior to the assassination.
The Protective Research Section of the Secret Service, which is responsible for its preventive work, lacked sufficient trained personnel and the mechanical and technical assistance needed to fulfill its responsibility.
Prior to the assassination the Secret Service's criteria dealt with direct threats against the President. Although the Secret Service treated the direct threats against the President adequately, it failed to recognize the necessity of identifying
other potential sources of danger to his security. The Secret Service did not develop adequate and specific criteria defining those persons or groups who might present a danger to the President. In effect, the Secret Service largely relied upon other Federal or State agencies to supply the information necessary for it to fulfill its preventive responsibilities, although it did ask for information about direct threats to the President.
(c) The Commission has concluded that there was insufficient liaison and coordination of information between the Secret Service and other Federal agencies necessarily concerned with Presidential protection. Although the FBI, in the normal exercise of its responsibility, had secured considerable information about Lee Harvey Oswald, it had no official responsibility, under the Secret Service criteria existing at the time of the President's trip to Dallas, to refer to the Secret Service the information it had about Oswald. The Commission has concluded, however, that the FBI took an unduly restrictive view of its role in preventive intelligence work prior to the assassination. A more carefully coordinated treatment of the Oswald case by the FBI might well have resulted in bringing Oswald's activities to the attention of the Secret Service.
(d) The Commission has concluded that some of the advance preparations in Dallas made by the Secret Service, such as the detailed security measures taken at Love Field and the Trade Mart, were thorough and well executed. In other respects, however, the Commission has concluded that the advance preparations for the President's trip were deficient.
Although the Secret Service is compelled to rely to a great extent on local law enforcement officials, its procedures at the time of the Dallas trip did not call for well-defined instructions as to the respective responsibilities of the police officials and others assisting in the protection of the President.
The procedures relied upon by the Secret Service for detecting the presence of an assassin located in a building along a motorcade route were inadequate. At the time of the trip to Dallas, the Secret Service as a matter of practice did not investigate, or cause to be checked, any building located along the motorcade route to be taken by the President. The responsibility for observing windows in these buildings during the motorcade was divided between local police personnel stationed on the streets to regulate crowds and Secret Service agents riding in the motorcade. Based on its investigation the Commission has concluded that these arrangements during the trip to Dallas were clearly not sufficient.
(e) The configuration of the Presidential car and the seating arrangements of the Secret Service agents in the car did not afford Page the Secret Service agents the opportunity they should have had to be of immediate assistance to the President at the first sign of danger.
(f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the agents most immediately responsible for the President's safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-1
JohnM
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Not one cite in sight.
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Conclusions
This Commission was created to ascertain the facts relating to the preceding summary of events and to consider the important questions which they raised. ....
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-1
JohnM
(https://massivelyop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/lipstick-on-a-pig_466562_1.jpg)
The creation of the Commission was politically motivated and intended to control (manipulate) and contain the facts.
Political expedience seemed to require containment of the facts and not wide ranging, expansive investigation,
the opposite of following the leads wherever the evidence took the investigators. The amount of time required to
gather and analyze the facts resulting in a report to the POTUS was determined near the start of the investigation
and was not influenced by the requirements of the investigation.
The FBI was the eyes and ears, on the street, of the Commission. The top priority of the FBI was its image, its reputation,
especially if that priority was perceived to conflict with the pursuit of leads, fact finding, transparency to the WC or
to anything or anyone outside the FBI.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11392&search=dial_ryder#relPageId=4&tab=page
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldDialRyderBossGreener.jpg)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767
Fleta L. Ryder Mantooth
14 Aug 2008 (aged 85)
Fleta was the daughter of Homer Richard and Magdalena Jeanetta (Baehr) Ryder and raised with one brother and six sisters. She married Roy Lee Mantooth December 13, 1963, in Albany, Texas. He preceded her in death on March 10, 1979.
On May 12, 1970, Grossi/Bowen was tried and convicted. One count against him was impersonating Roy Lee Mantooth,
adoptive father of Bowen/Grossi son, Glenn. Mantooth was an ex-convict formerly in federal prison serving his sentence
after being found guilty of a series of USPO robberies for the purpose of stealing postal money order blanks and printers.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137473&search=mantooth#relPageId=4&tab=page
During World War II she built B-29's and B-17's in Illinois and Fort Worth, Texas. She worked for U.S. Brass in assembly for 20 years and most recently for Olney I.S.D. in food services. She was a member of the Southside Baptist Church and the Cross Country Emmaus Community.
She moved to Olney from Abilene, Texas in 1990. She was preceded in death by two sisters, Fern Boyett and Mardella Cox.
At time of death she was survived by one son, Glenn Lewis Mantooth and wife, Nicole of Abilene, Texas; two daughters, Dixie Kirby and husband DeWayne of Olney, Texas and Gypsie Fomby and husband Dale of Clyde, Texas; one brother, Dial Ryder of Irving, Texas; four sisters, Magdelene Beanblossom of Decatur, Illinois, Iseaphene Kutz of Olney, Illinois, Marcella Farrar of Poteau, Oklahoma and Velma Douglas of Killeen, Texas.
Link (https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bbirth_year%3A1956-1957~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Alucille~%20%2Bmother_surname%3Aryder~)
Glenn Lewis Bowen
Texas Birth Index
Name Glenn Lewis Bowen
Event Type Birth
Event Date 11 Oct 1956
Event Place Dallas, Texas
Gender Male
Father's Name Jack Leslie Bowen
Mother's Name Fleta Lucille Ryder
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49681/m1/1/med_res/
(http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49681/m1/1/med_res/)
Mrs. Fleda Mantooth was the mother of Oswald former co-worker Jack Leslie Bowen's son, Glenn, and former spouse of Bowen/Grossi.
Mrs. Fleda Mantooth was the sister of Dial Ryder. Mrs. Mantooth's husband's brother Robert was described as a
partner in 1970 in a stolen car ring with Jack Leslie Bowen.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&search=bowen_and+mantooth+and+license#relPageId=58&tab=page
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I can find almost nothing in the Warren Commission?s conclusions that I disagree with. Just the last line.
(f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the agents most immediately responsible for the President's safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building.
However, the reasons for the slow response of the Secret Service are easy to see. A motorcade with frequent loud backfires by the escorting motorcycles is bound to slow their responses. The backfires would be about as loud as a rifle shot, particularly with some motorcycles being so much closer to the Secret Service agents then a rifle 130 to 265 feet away.
I think it is natural to except most Secret Service agents to not begin to react until after the President is wounded at z222 and for the two agents in the front seat, who did not see the President?s reactions to his wounding, to not react effectively until after the headshot at z312.
The Warren Commission conclusions were much sounder than the later House Select Committee on Assassinations. I think this shows the pitfalls of having a later investigation designed to find errors in the first investigation due to a possible lack of time. The desire to find major errors in the first investigation caused the HSCA to make major errors in their conclusions.
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I can find almost nothing in the Warren Commission?s conclusions that I disagree with. Just the last line.
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Your opinion is offered. I learned nothing new from it. The bulk of the evidence offered by the WC was provided by
the FBI. All of the FBI personnel disciplined by Director Hoover after the Assassination of JFK were punished for
decisions and actions Hoover believed reflected poorly on the Bureau. None were disciplined for actual Investigation
performance shortcomings.
I provided an example to readers of how shallow the claimed thorough FBI investigation actually was.
You provided a poorly supported, personal endorsement of the investigative work of the FBI tasked by the WC
with politically motivated time constraints imposed.
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This is one giant glaring example of conclusions not following from the evidence.
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"This Commission was created to ascertain the facts relating to the preceding summary of events and to consider the important questions which they raised. ...."
Maybe it should read the Committee ascertained that it created facts ..............
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Your opinion is offered. I learned nothing new from it.
And you never will. Mighty Mytton loves to chew up web space.
The Commission could not make [up] any definitive determination of Oswald's motives.
Because they couldn't. There wasn't any.
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Conclusions
This Commission was created to ascertain the facts relating to the preceding summary of events and to consider the important questions which they raised. The Commission has addressed itself to this task and has reached certain conclusions based on all the available evidence. No limitations have been placed on the Commission's inquiry; it has conducted its own investigation, and all Government agencies have fully discharged their responsibility to cooperate with the Commission in its investigation. These conclusions represent the reasoned judgment of all members of the Commission and are presented after an investigation which has satisfied the Commission that it: has ascertained the truth concerning the assassination of President Kennedy to the extent that a prolonged and thorough search makes this possible.
~snip~
JohnM
Chief Justice Warren:
"Now I think our job here is essentially one for the evaluation of evidence as distinguished from being one of gathering evidence, and I believe at the outset at least we can start with the premise that we can rely upon the reports of the various agencies that have been engaged in investigation of the matter, the FBI, the Secret Service, and others that I may know about at the present time
Gerald Ford:
"The FBI, and I use them as an example, undertook a very extensive investigation. I don't recall how many agents, but they had a massive operation to investigate everything. The commission with this group of lawyers and some additional staff people, then drew upon this information which was available, and we, if my memory serves me accurately, insisted that the FBI give us everything they had. Now that is a comprehensive order from the Commission to the Director and to the FBI. I assume and I think
the Commission assumed that that order was so broad that if they had anything it was their obligation to submit it. Now if they didn't, that is a failure on the part of the agencies, not on the part of the Commission."
Richard Schweiker, Senator and former Church Committee member:
"I think the [Warren] report, to those who have studied it closely, has collapsed like a house of cards.....the fatal mistake the Warren Commission made was not to use its own investigators, but instead to rely on the CIA and FBI personnel, which played directly into the hands of senior intelligence officials who directed the cover-up."
- speaking on Face the Nation on 27 Jun 1976. Schweiker was with Gary Hart the co-chairman of the JFK subcommittee.
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Chief Justice Warren:
"Now I think our job here is essentially one for the evaluation of evidence as distinguished from being one of gathering evidence, and I believe at the outset at least we can start with the premise that we can rely upon the reports of the various agencies that have been engaged in investigation of the matter, the FBI, the Secret Service, and others that I may know about at the present time
Gerald Ford:
"The FBI, and I use them as an example, undertook a very extensive investigation. I don't recall how many agents, but they had a massive operation to investigate everything. The commission with this group of lawyers and some additional staff people, then drew upon this information which was available, and we, if my memory serves me accurately, insisted that the FBI give us everything they had. Now that is a comprehensive order from the Commission to the Director and to the FBI. I assume and I think the Commission assumed that that order was so broad that if they had anything it was their obligation to submit it. Now if they didn't, that is a failure on the part of the agencies, not on the part of the Commission."
Good. So, all I have to do to become a CTer is to believe that the FBI, the Secret Service and other various agencies were in it together as part of a conspiracy. Once I can make myself believe in Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracies I am over the hurdle.
Richard Schweiker, Senator and former Church Committee member:
"I think the [Warren] report, to those who have studied it closely, has collapsed like a house of cards.....the fatal mistake the Warren Commission made was not to use its own investigators, but instead to rely on the CIA and FBI personnel, which played directly into the hands of senior intelligence officials who directed the cover-up."
- speaking on Face the Nation on 27 Jun 1976. Schweiker was with Gary Hart the co-chairman of the JFK subcommittee.
This is patent nonsense because if the Warren Commission had used its own investigators, in whatever numbers, Schweiker would have just concluded that they were part of the conspiracy.
Indeed, wouldn?t it be easier to run a cover-up with people you appoint yourself than to have to use already existing FBI agents, Secret Service agents and other government employees who might or might not want to go along with a large conspiracy?
So, in what way did Schweiker think having the Warren Commission select its own investigators would be superior to using FBI agents? I don?t follow his logic.
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This is one giant glaring example of conclusions not following from the evidence.
Ok Iacoletti or whatever you name is, you have all the WC facts and the accumulated evidence of thousands of researchers putting millions of hours into this case, what's your conclusion?
JohnM
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Hale Boggs was on the Warren Commission and he wasn't buying the Single-bullet theory and it seems that the disappearance of Hale Boggs plane over Alaska ,which was never found, sent a message of get on board with the Warren Commission or stop breathing . Two others on the Warren Commission were not really on board either . Are we to believe that Gerald Ford , on his own ,had the bullet in the back moved up to a bullet at the base of the neck with the final report saying " A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine . I don't remember Ford being at and running the job that Humes was said to have done at the JFK Autopsy. There were those who thought that Ford was a"Mole" for giving J. Edgar Hoover the scoop on what was being said and done with the task of the Warren Commission !
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Hale Boggs was on the Warren Commission and he wasn't buying the Single-bullet theory and it seems that the disappearance of Hale Boggs plane over Alaska ,which was never found, sent a message of get on board with the Warren Commission or stop breathing . Two others on the Warren Commission were not really on board either . Are we to believe that Gerald Ford , on his own ,had the bullet in the back moved up to a bullet at the base of the neck with the final report saying " A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine . I don't remember Ford being at and running the job that Humes was said to have done at the JFK Autopsy. There were those who thought that Ford was a"Mole" for giving J. Edgar Hoover the scoop on what was being said and done with the task of the Warren Commission !
Hale Boggs was on the Warren Commission and he wasn't buying the Single-bullet theory and it seems that the disappearance of Hale Boggs plane over Alaska ,which was never found, sent a message of get on board with the Warren Commission or stop breathing .
Even though the WC clearly spelled out that the SBF wasn't essential to their findings, 9 years later "they" killed not only Boggs but everyone else on board to send a message, Holy FK'n WOW!
Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot hit Governor Connally....
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-1
Are we to believe that Gerald Ford , on his own ,had the bullet in the back moved up to a bullet at the base of the neck with the final report saying " A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine .
All Ford did was more accurately reflect the autopsy report, you know the report written and signed off by 3 medical professionals.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYj7HVM9/jfk-autopsy-report-base-neck.jpg)
JohnM
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundautopsyphotos.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundwc_1.jpg)
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Good. So, all I have to do to become a CTer is to believe that the FBI, the Secret Service and other various agencies were in it together as part of a conspiracy. Once I can make myself believe in Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracies I am over the hurdle.
This is patent nonsense because if the Warren Commission had used its own investigators, in whatever numbers, Schweiker would have just concluded that they were part of the conspiracy.
Indeed, wouldn?t it be easier to run a cover-up with people you appoint yourself than to have to use already existing FBI agents, Secret Service agents and other government employees who might or might not want to go along with a large conspiracy?
So, in what way did Schweiker think having the Warren Commission select its own investigators would be superior to using FBI agents? I don?t follow his logic.
???
"This is patent nonsense because if the Warren Commission had used its own investigators, in whatever numbers, Schweiker would have just concluded that they were part of the conspiracy."
LOL
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With the likes of Dulles and Ford on the Committee, Warren would have had a hell of a job trying to get real evidence into the report. By using the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service evidence, it was a boondoddle for those two to to get the verdict required by the conspirators.
If Earl Warren had employed his own investigators, which he certainly should have done, he still would have had an uphill battle against those two quislings on his committee, but at least we would have been able to trust the evidence produced.
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Guys...look at it this way- No one wanted to open up the can of worms that a conspiracy would entail or reveal. That same lack of backbone still exists today.
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Ok Iacoletti or whatever you name is, you have all the WC facts and the accumulated evidence of thousands of researchers putting millions of hours into this case, what's your conclusion?
My conclusion is that there is insufficient evidence to determine who killed JFK. If you disagree, then you need to specify what that evidence is,
a) without lying about or misrepresenting the evidence that exists
b) without appealing to speculation, assumption, and handwaving
c) without ignoring the real provenance issues with every single piece of what little physical evidence does exist
d) without cherry-picking unreliable and uncorroborated witness statements and claims
Regurgitating Bugliosi's 53 will not cut it, because they all violate one or more of the above.
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Good. So, all I have to do to become a CTer is to believe that the FBI, the Secret Service and other various agencies were in it together as part of a conspiracy. Once I can make myself believe in Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracies I am over the hurdle.
This is patent nonsense because if the Warren Commission had used its own investigators, in whatever numbers, Schweiker would have just concluded that they were part of the conspiracy.
Indeed, wouldn?t it be easier to run a cover-up with people you appoint yourself than to have to use already existing FBI agents, Secret Service agents and other government employees who might or might not want to go along with a large conspiracy?
So, in what way did Schweiker think having the Warren Commission select its own investigators would be superior to using FBI agents? I don?t follow his logic.
Perhaps you should talk to Trump. He can tell you all you need to know about the FBI and conspiracies....... ;)
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My conclusion is that there is insufficient evidence to determine who killed JFK.
OK, how much evidence would you need?
JohnM
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Even though the WC clearly spelled out that the SBF wasn't essential to their findings, 9 years later "they" killed not only Boggs but everyone else on board to send a message, Holy FK'n WOW!
Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot hit Governor Connally....
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-1
All Ford did was more accurately reflect the autopsy report, you know the report written and signed off by 3 medical professionals.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYj7HVM9/jfk-autopsy-report-base-neck.jpg)
JohnM
Even though the WC clearly spelled out that the SBF [sic] wasn't essential to their findings,
Really? Of course it was essential, because without it they couldn't explain all the wounds with just three shots!
Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot hit Governor Connally....
That might be true, but it's a long way from claiming the SBT wasn't essential to their findings since it absolutely was!
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but it's a long way from claiming the SBT wasn't essential to their findings since it absolutely was!
Why?
JohnM
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Why?
JohnM
Already explained?.
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Already explained?.
Ok, so you got nothing.
JohnM
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OK, how much evidence would you need?
Do you have any that fits the above criteria?
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Do you have any that fits the above criteria?
Yeah, almost all of the evidence.
Sure you can cherry pick an example here or there which I'm sure any of us can do but the overwhelming evidence since day 1 has pointed to only Oswald.
In almost 55 years if you had any proof of a conspiracy then we wouldn't be having this debate but all that keeps the Conspiracy movement moving is unending speculation which so far goes nowhere but do keep trying because you never know you John, you may just be the one out of thousands who can actually figure this out, Good Luck, you're gonna need it.
JohnM
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Ok, so you got nothing.
JohnM
Or alternatively you just need to learn to read
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Or alternatively you just need to learn to read
Why, it's your claim! DUH!'
And now I've got to research why you think the SBF was essential to the WC findings? WTF!
JohnM
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Why, it's your claim! DUH!'
And now I've got to research why you think the SBF was essential to the WC findings? WTF!
JohnM
Going back a couple of posts is "research" to you?
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I can find almost nothing in the Warren Commission?s conclusions that I disagree with. Just the last line.
(f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the agents most immediately responsible for the President's safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building.
However, the reasons for the slow response of the Secret Service are easy to see. A motorcade with frequent loud backfires by the escorting motorcycles is bound to slow their responses. The backfires would be about as loud as a rifle shot, particularly with some motorcycles being so much closer to the Secret Service agents then a rifle 130 to 265 feet away.
I think it is natural to except most Secret Service agents to not begin to react until after the President is wounded at z222 and for the two agents in the front seat, who did not see the President?s reactions to his wounding, to not react effectively until after the headshot at z312.
The Warren Commission conclusions were much sounder than the later House Select Committee on Assassinations. I think this shows the pitfalls of having a later investigation designed to find errors in the first investigation due to a possible lack of time. The desire to find major errors in the first investigation caused the HSCA to make major errors in their conclusions.
The reactions of the Secret Service were not overly delayed if the first shot occurred at z210 as the Commission seemed to find. Certainly that was McCloy's position because he made the point that Connally was struck by it but didn't notice it until after the second shot.
With the cars going down Elm and about to enter the freeway, there was not a lot that could be done. JFK did not want SS agents on the back of the Presidential car.
Clint Hill saw the opportunity to reach the President's car when it slowed down just before the head shot. He jumped off the followup car within about 3 seconds from z210. Jack Ready on the right front running board started to run to the President's car immediately after but was called back by Emory Roberts for safety concerns (CE1024, 18 H 734 and 750).
In retrospect, the SS agents were not adequately trained to recognize gun fire and to react. If Greer had been able to recognize the gun fire at the first shot and immediately react by making the President less of a target - and certainly not slowing down to make him a sitting duck - the result might have been different. But that was a training issue and it is unfair to put the blame on the agents themselves. Even if the other agents had recognized the first shot as gunfire, there was little they could have done in the 6 seconds that followed. Six seconds is not much time to do anything let alone determine where shots are coming from and put your body between the shooter and the President, which was the best they could have done.
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Yeah, almost all of the evidence.
Sure you can cherry pick an example here or there which I'm sure any of us can do but the overwhelming evidence since day 1 has pointed to only Oswald.
In almost 55 years if you had any proof of a conspiracy then we wouldn't be having this debate but all that keeps the Conspiracy movement moving is unending speculation which so far goes nowhere but do keep trying because you never know you John, you may just be the one out of thousands who can actually figure this out, Good Luck, you're gonna need it.
JohnM
This is longwinded doublespeak for him NOT having any. The evidence provided by the WC didn't point to LHO in 1964 so of course it doesn't point to LHO in 2018.
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Yeah, almost all of the evidence.
LOL
In almost 55 years if you had any proof of a conspiracy then we wouldn't be having this debate but all that keeps the Conspiracy movement moving is unending speculation which so far goes nowhere but do keep trying because you never know you John, you may just be the one out of thousands who can actually figure this out, Good Luck, you're gonna need it.
Poor "Mytton". He actually thinks that the lack of proof of a conspiracy somehow shows that Oswald did it.
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Not one cite in sight.
Yet there are 62 pages worth of footnotes in the Warren Report
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Once they had a known location/time of the shooter and the known location (and narrow window of time) of the suspect and only one path possible between the two locations within a narrow window of time, how about confirming that none of the TSBD staff were in a position to either impede unobserved traversal of that path during that time?
Every staff between the 2nd and 6th should haver been asked to confirm if they traversed the stairs or where in a position to observe the stairs. The WC failed to confirm that the presumed path of the assassin was able to be used by them at the time they were supposed to use it.
Instead a single TSBD staff Adams, who gave evidence of an early transit on the stairs was refuted by an observation in her testimony, that was uncoroborated by any of other 3 people and which she now denies having made. Any testimony by either Garner or Dorman about Adams and Styles descent, was either not sort or conviently not included, why? Why did they not make the simple check of the path being clear for the descent? Did it just not occurr that the numerous people in the TSBD may have used or been in place to observe any transit or as I think more likely they had a "cinched" case so lets not turn over stones?
This is the single biggest flaw in the WC in my opinion, they know where the suspect must have traversed but made to attmept to confirm if he could have unobserved made such a transit.
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Yet there are 62 pages worth of footnotes in the Warren Report
Then cite away for the claims in the OP.