JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Joe Elliott on July 29, 2020, 02:44:37 AM
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My Re-Evaluation of Johnny Brewer’s Initial Report of December 6, 1963
I didn’t think it likely that the media was reporting the shooting of an officer so soon after the shooting. Officer Tippit was shot at 1:15 pm. Oswald ducked into the foyer of the shoe store at 1:36. Surely, I thought, the media could not have been broadcasting this within 21 minutes, could they? Or if they had, surely someone on this board would know of this.
However, John McAdams maintains a website on the JFK assassination. At the following webpage, he has a transcript of the police communications from November 22, 1963:
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/ (https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/)
This is broken up into three sections. In section 3:
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm (https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm)
At 1:26 or 1:27, we have the following information being relayed from Officer E. G. Sabastian to the Dallas police Dispatcher.
Sabastian 75. ; getting the Dispatcher’s attention
Dispatcher 75. ; Dispatcher acknowledging Officer Sabastian
Sabastian NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher That’s correct.
Sabastian That the officer?
Dispatcher Yes.
By 1:27, within 12 minutes of the shooting, NBC News was reporting the death of a police, who was reported DOA. I would expect, probably, no, most certainly, that local radio stations would pick this up and report on it immediately. Mr. Brewer may have even been listening to NBC News. Mr. Brewer may have heard that a policeman was shot up to 9 minutes before Oswald showed up. It would have been the last major news break before he first saw Oswald.
I would now speculate that someone, in this case NBC News, had done what I thought was possible. Monitor the police frequency. And got a scoop that was promptly broadcast and would be picked up by the rest of the media, if they were not asleep, immediately.
Over time, I think it’s clear that Mr. Brewer’s memory did change. Two weeks later it was “I” was listening to the radio. Four months later it was “we” were listening to the radio. 33 years later it was “Two IBM employees were lounging around and killing time, on a work day, while we” were listening to the radio. But Mr. Brewer’s memory just two weeks later seems to have been spot on.
My apologies to Mr. Brewer. His memory of the events during the first two weeks appears spot on. In this case my “Probability” analysis was off. That’s why I call it a “Probability” analysis, not a “Certainty” analysis.
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By 1:27, within 12 minutes of the shooting, NBC News was reporting the death of a police, who was reported DOA.
@56:55
JohnM
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@56:55
That's too late. At 43:40 in this video they mention that Kilduff announced that the president had died at 1:00, and that it was "thirty-five minutes ago".
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That's too late. At 43:40 in this video they mention that Kilduff announced that the president had died at 1:00, and that it was "thirty-five minutes ago".
Yes, but as you know, as you know, the Dictabelt recordings show the police talking over the police radio about an NBC news flash, of a policeman being shot and killed in Dallas. From the police radio they would learn that the shooing had taken place in the Oak Cliff area. And this talk over the radio occurred several minutes before Oswald first showed up at the shoe store at 1:36.
Why do you put emphasis on the later TV broadcast? It doesn’t matter is this shooing was reported by the media well after 1:30. What matters is that it was also reported before 1:30.
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Yes, but as you know, as you know, the Dictabelt recordings show the police talking over the police radio about an NBC news flash, of a policeman being shot and killed in Dallas. From the police radio they would learn that the shooing had taken place in the Oak Cliff area. And this talk over the radio occurred several minutes before Oswald first showed up at the shoe store at 1:36.
Why do you put emphasis on the later TV broadcast? It doesn’t matter is this shooing was reported by the media well after 1:30. What matters is that it was also reported before 1:30.
Radio stations always record their entire output, for the purpose of settling possible disputes with advertisers. No recording of any broadcast about Tippit being killed for the time in question has ever surfaced.
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Radio stations always record their entire output, for the purpose of settling possible disputes with advertisers. No recording of any broadcast about Tippit being killed for the time in question has ever surfaced.
And they keep those tapes forever? They never reuse them?
Assuming what you tell me is true:
Question 1:
Is the reason we have no recording of a radio station broadcasting the news of a policeman’s shooting because we no longer have these recordings?
Question 2:
Can you give me a list of radio stations that we do have entire recordings of that do not mention the shooting of a police officer before 1:35?
Question 3:
If such a radio announcement was never made, why are the police discussing over the police radio the NBC news flash reporting the shooting of a police officer by 1:27?
That we do have a recording of and it still exists.
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Yes, but as you know, as you know, the Dictabelt recordings show the police talking over the police radio about an NBC news flash, of a policeman being shot and killed in Dallas. From the police radio they would learn that the shooing had taken place in the Oak Cliff area. And this talk over the radio occurred several minutes before Oswald first showed up at the shoe store at 1:36.
Why do you put emphasis on the later TV broadcast? It doesn’t matter is this shooing was reported by the media well after 1:30. What matters is that it was also reported before 1:30.
But I checked the existing recordings of both NBC TV and NBC radio, and no such announcement exists. So patrolman Sebastian was wrong.
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And they keep those tapes forever? They never reuse them? Assuming what you tell me is true:
"Assuming"? ----What is your major malfunction? The recordings are preserved on youtube....
@ 2:05:30 the report JFK is dead [announcement came at 1:38 CST] @2:33 in the recording the report of the Oak Cliff shooting....Do the math---------
This recording starts at the announcement of JFK's death [1:38 CST]
NOTE--- 24:30 = [minutes later] the report states "Moments ago a policeman was reported shot shot down at 10th and Patton in the Oak Cliff area...."
It seems that hearts are broken that Brewer lied...get over it....move on.
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Brewer even said in his interview with Griggs that when he was following the man he was thinking "what am I doing here?". I believe that his story about hearing on the radio that a policeman had been shot in Oak Cliff was a post-hoc fabrication (conscious or unconscious) to justify why he was suspicious of this man standing in front of his shop.
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Brewer even said in his interview with Griggs that when he was following the man he was thinking "what am I doing here?". I believe that his story about hearing on the radio that a policeman had been shot in Oak Cliff was a post-hoc fabrication (conscious or unconscious) to justify why he was suspicious of this man standing in front of his shop.
::)
Only 'standing in front of his shop' was he... did Brewer say that was what made him look funny?
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::)
Only 'standing in front of his shop' was he... did Brewer say that was what made him look funny?
Look who's JAQ-ing now!
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That's too late. At 43:40 in this video they mention that Kilduff announced that the president had died at 1:00, and that it was "thirty-five minutes ago".
Anyone who watches that NBC video should see that the official announcement of the presidents death being made at 1:38 PM CST [43:35 on the tape] Logic dictates that @56:55, that would make the time @1:51 PM CST ----21 minutes or so later. Oswald was in the police car headed downtown at that time.... end of story so please quit making up stories!!!
Is it not embarrassing enough so far? :D
This leaves the police invasion of the Texas Theater being based on a post-arrest fabrication a la cover-up.
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Look who's JAQ-ing now!
It's not JAQing since I'm not attempting to garner plausible deniability. It seems you're the one who doesn't know what the term JAQing means.
Addtionally, you are once again attempting to mislead by ignoring that which gave Brewer cause to watch the guy walk down the street in the first place.
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"Assuming"? ----What is your major malfunction? The recordings are preserved on youtube....
@ 2:05:30 the report JFK is dead [announcement came at 1:38 CST] @2:33 in the recording the report of the Oak Cliff shooting....Do the math---------
This recording starts at the announcement of JFK's death [1:38 CST]
NOTE--- 24:30 = [minutes later] the report states "Moments ago a policeman was reported shot shot down at 10th and Patton in the Oak Cliff area...."
It seems that hearts are broken that Brewer lied...get over it....move on.
The Dallas police Dictabelt recording of the radio transmissions show the dispatcher and one other policeman reporting that NBC News had reported that a Dallas police officer had been shot and killed. This brief talk took place at 1:27 to 1:28 CST, 13 to 14 minutes after the shooting. This is about 7 to 8 minutes before Oswald first showed up at the shoe store.
So, for us to conclude that the police were hearing things, we would need, at a minimum, a recording of the NBC news radio station during this time. Something that Mr. Freeman has not provided us with yet.
Now, about the two recording Mr. Freeman has provided us with:
The KBOX recording is worthless because it doesn’t start until it is officially known and announced that the President is dead. These announcements were not made by the media until 1:35 or later so this recording tells us nothing of what was broadcast between 1:15 and 1:36.
The KLIF broadcast is more useful, it starts at 11:30 CST. But was it the NBC News station? We have no information that Mr. Brewer was listening to this station. But a couple things of interest:
At 1:49:00, which corresponds to 1:19 CST, 4 minutes after the shooting of Officer Tippit, KLIF reported “And new here’s a late report from Dallas police. One secret service agent was killed in the assassin’s attempt. This was a false report, but it could cause Mr. Brewer to remember hearing about someone else being killed. This could cause some confusion in Mr. Brewer’s mind. Two weeks later he may assume he heard a report of the killing of a police officer, not of a secret service agent.
On KLIF, there is no report of a police officer being shot. However, at 1:54:19, or 1:24 CST, they said “KLIF is only accepting news from official sources, those whom we are in contact daily.” This implies they had the policy not to rely information from other sources, like NBC News. So KLIF might report the Officer Tippit shooting much later. But we don’t know if all Dallas radio stations have this policy.
I remember that many stations had a different policy. They could report flashes from other news agencies, so long as they gave them credit. So, an ABC radio station might report:
“NBC News has just reported that a Dallas police officer was shot in the Oak Cliff area”.
But KLIF had a different policy, so it did not report the officer shooting until later.
All and all, Mr. Freeman has done the minimum, to prove that no Dallas radio station reported on this shooting before 1:35 CST. He only provided the recording of two stations. One of which starts too late to be of any use on the question. Neither is, as far as I can tell, the NBC News Radio station that was being discussed on the Dictabelt tape.
It is possible that Mr. Freeman was lying, or more likely, mistaken about hearing about a police officer was shot before Oswald ducked into his foyer. He might have been listening to KLIF. But we have no information what radio station he was listening to. He might have been listening to the NBC News station, or some radio station willing to forward the news flashes of other networks.
Mr. Freeman needs to do more work to prove that is was impossible for Mr. Brewer to have heard about the shooing of Officer Tippit in the Oak Cliff area. He needs to provide us with a continuous recording of the local NBC station during the time of 1:10 to 1:40.
P.S.
David Von Pein has a recording of the New York NBC station, I assume, because it uses EST times, not CST. We need a recording of the local Dallas NBC station.
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We need a recording of the local Dallas NBC station.
Now prove that Brewer was listening to WBAP.
3:27:40 Witness describes shots from the knoll.
3:37:00 [video timing officially]--- JFK announced dead.
Joe Elliott has supplied absolutely no support for any of his speculative statements.
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Brewer even said in his interview with Griggs that when he was following the man he was thinking "what am I doing here?". I believe that his story about hearing on the radio that a policeman had been shot in Oak Cliff was a post-hoc fabrication (conscious or unconscious) to justify why he was suspicious of this man standing in front of his shop.
You're the one doing the justifying here, not Brewer.
In this interview with Brewer, at one point he says he thought something to the effect of 'what in hell I doing... am I taking this too far?'.
Point out where that could mean anything other than Brewer knowing full well that the funny looking guy might well have been armed & dangerous.
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In this interview with Brewer, at one point he says he thought something to the effect of 'what in hell I doing... am I taking this too far?'. Point out where that could mean anything other than Brewer knowing full well that the funny looking guy might well have been armed & dangerous.
A [could be] armed and dangerous funny looking guy stops..looks at Brewer and then flips him off :D
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It's not JAQing since I'm not attempting to garner plausible deniability. It seems you're the one who doesn't know what the term JAQing means.
"it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less" - Chapman in Wonderland
Addtionally, you are once again attempting to mislead by ignoring that which gave Brennan cause to watch the guy walk down the street in the first place.
Oh so now Brennan watched somebody walk down the street? :D
Typical incoherent babbling Chapman . . .
I'm not "ignoring" anything. If you have a point to make about Brewer, then make it rather than JAQ-ing.
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The Dallas police Dictabelt recording of the radio transmissions show the dispatcher and one other policeman reporting that NBC News had reported that a Dallas police officer had been shot and killed. This brief talk took place at 1:27 to 1:28 CST, 13 to 14 minutes after the shooting. This is about 7 to 8 minutes before Oswald first showed up at the shoe store.
So, for us to conclude that the police were hearing things, we would need, at a minimum, a recording of the NBC news radio station during this time. Something that Mr. Freeman has not provided us with yet.
The KLIF broadcast is more useful, it starts at 11:30 CST. But was it the NBC News station? We have no information that Mr. Brewer was listening to this station.
ILG: I know this is a crazy question but is there any way of recalling which programme, which station, you were listening to?
JCB: A Dallas station. I have a feeling it may have been KLIF. That would be one of the stations that I would ordinarily be listening to, but I honestly don't know. It was just the normal run of the motorcade and all of a sudden you hear all the commotion and then you hear something about shots being fired and then -- you know.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page)
I know -- "probably" another "false memory".
All and all, Mr. Freeman has done the minimum, to prove that no Dallas radio station reported on this shooting before 1:35 CST. He only provided the recording of two stations. One of which starts too late to be of any use on the question. Neither is, as far as I can tell, the NBC News Radio station that was being discussed on the Dictabelt tape.
The burden is on the people who claim that Brewer heard a radio report of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff to show that such a report was actually made.
David Von Pein has a recording of the New York NBC station, I assume, because it uses EST times, not CST. We need a recording of the local Dallas NBC station.
NBC is NBC is NBC. They either reported it or they didn't.
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Point out where that could mean anything other than Brewer knowing full well that the funny looking guy might well have been armed & dangerous.
That's nothing but Chapman conjecture. He had no reason whatsoever to think that the funny guy was armed and dangerous. Nor did he ever say he did.
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ILG: I know this is a crazy question but is there any way of recalling which programme, which station, you were listening to?
JCB: A Dallas station. I have a feeling it may have been KLIF. That would be one of the stations that I would ordinarily be listening to, but I honestly don't know. It was just the normal run of the motorcade and all of a sudden you hear all the commotion and then you hear something about shots being fired and then -- you know.
I know -- "probably" another "false memory".
When did Mr. Brewer make this statement? And what problem does it cause me? He said he didn’t know which station he was listening to. It may have been KLIF. Or it may have not. Your implying that because he thought it might have been KLIF, it probably was KLIF. Who is making the ‘probably’ argument now?
The burden is on the people who claim that Brewer heard a radio report of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff to show that such a report was actually made.
No. The burden is on the people who claim Mr. Brewer could not possibly have heard such a broadcast. Because the Dictabelt tapes record two policemen talking about just such a broadcast at 1:26 or 1:27. I don’t think either was hallucinating. So, it must be assumed that such a broadcast did take place, until it is proven that no such early broadcast took place, on any of the local radio stations, not just one or two. Only then can it be declared “impossible”.
NBC is NBC is NBC. They either reported it or they didn't.
No. I live in the San Francisco area. I listen on a radio to a CBS station, KCBS. They talk about the national news, the local news and the local weather and traffic. I assume the same is true throughout the country. Each major city would have its own local NBC radio station and not just broadcast the same that is broadcast out of New York. How else are people to find out about their local weather and traffic? Go to a competitor’s station?
As an aside, I was running with the theory that some NBC reporter could have monitored the police radio frequencies, to get this scoop. But there is another more-straight forward way. Send some reporters to the Dallas Police station. What better way to get early information? The talk of a police shooting would quickly spread throughout the police station. Later in the day, after Oswald was brought in, the press camped out in huge numbers in the police station. But there is no reason to believe there would not have been a media presence during the first hour after the assassination. If reporters did not find out about the Officer Tippit shooing within a few minutes, or did but decided not to report it, that would be surprising.
P. S. I just remembered, that reporters did know about the shooting of the police officer in the Oak Cliff area. Many of them immediately left the Dealey Plaza area to go to the Oak Cliff area. Before Oswald was captured, one of the reporters was helping the police search a building, as I recall, and thought this was crazy because he did not have a gun to defend himself.
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That's nothing but Chapman conjecture. He had no reason whatsoever to think that the funny guy was armed and dangerous. Nor did he ever say he did.
There you go again: Ignoring the wailing cop-cars, news of the assassination, a guy observed by Brewer to be attempting to hide, and then conclude that Brewer had no reason to suspect anything.
::)
Now show us where Brewer claimed to be doubting his reasons for following Oswald. Seems to me that's nothing but Iacoletti conjecture.
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There you go again: Ignoring the wailing cop-cars, news of the assassination, a guy observed by Brewer to be attempting to hide, and then conclude that Brewer had no reason to suspect anything.
::)
Now show us where Brewer claimed to be doubting his reasons for following Oswald. Seems to me that's nothing but Iacoletti conjecture.
Oswald was " trying to hide"? On a public sidewalk? And maybe, the foyer of a shoe store?
Who, exactly, was Brewer?
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Question 1:
By the way, what is the CT explanation for the 1:26 or 1:27, exchange, on the Dictabelt recording, between Officer E. G. Sabastian and the Dallas police Dispatcher.
Sabastian 75. ; getting the Dispatcher’s attention
Dispatcher 75. ; Dispatcher acknowledging Officer Sabastian
Sabastian NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher That’s correct.
Sabastian That the officer?
Dispatcher Yes.
Is this to be considered a “Probable” error?
I don’t think it should be considered a “probable” error until we find that the local Dallas NBC radio station never issued this bulletin at this time. Then it can be considered an error, an incredible error that just happened, by sheer change, to match Mr. Brewer’s recollections two weeks later.
And no, it cannot be the National NBC radio station in New York. Or the local NBC station in Miami. It has to be the local NBC radio station in Dallas. During the time of 1:15 through 1:35 CST.
I should note that this cannot be confusion between hearing about President Kennedy and Officer Tippit. President Kennedy was never declared “DOA”, “Dead on Arrival”. He still had a weak heartbeat and was weakly breathing when he got to the hospital. The doctors worked on him for 10 minutes. Only then did his heart and breathing stop and the doctors gave up. President Kennedy died but he was not “DOA” nor ever declared so in the media. Only Officer Tippit was “DOA”.
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Oswald was " trying to hide"? On a public sidewalk? And maybe, the foyer of a shoe store?
Who, exactly, was Brewer?
1) Where did I say he was trying to hide on the sidewalk?
2) Brewer is and was one of the conspiracy central's biggest nightmares.
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Oswald was " trying to hide"? On a public sidewalk? And maybe, the foyer of a shoe store?
Who, exactly, was Brewer?
A patriotic citizen. It’s amazing how unpopular Johnny Brewer is with the CT community. It makes no sense.
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A patriotic citizen. It’s amazing how unpopular Johnny Brewer is with the CT community. It makes no sense.
Mr Elliott:
First, I neither believe - nor promote- any conspiracy re: JFK. Therefore, please stop referring to me as such. Thx.
Second: I have no feelings - pro or con - regarding Mr. Brewer. I've never met him.
Third: if he's such "patriotic citizen", then, surely, we should know more about him.
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The grasping of the minutiae of this thread seems to escape the detractors.
Johnny Brewer claims that "we were listening to a transistor radio"----
Mr. BELIN - I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events....
...And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.
I have linked the radio recordings and the detractors have failed to locate and pinpoint where it was reported that a cop was shot prior to Oswald's arrest. No other Dallas area citizen has stepped forward recalling that news of the policeman's shooting was heard by them prior to Oswald's arrest.
If the detractors want to pretend that ..even so, Brewer heard it anyway...then fine--enjoy your fantasy.
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A patriotic citizen. It’s amazing how unpopular Johnny Brewer is with the CT community. It makes no sense.
Yes it does. See post #24
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"it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less" - Chapman in Wonderland
Oh so now Brennan watched somebody walk down the street? :D
Typical incoherent babbling Chapman . . .
I'm not "ignoring" anything. If you have a point to make about Brewer, then make it rather than JAQ-ing.
I am impervious to your verbal barbs. You may hope that they are damaging me in other people's eyes. Feel free to keep it up. But be careful that you are not eventually seen here as nothing more than a desperate, petty, shallow little Oswald apologist.
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When did Mr. Brewer make this statement?
Well, if you had clicked on the link I helpfully provided with the quote, you would know.
And what problem does it cause me? He said he didn’t know which station he was listening to. It may have been KLIF. Or it may have not.
You claimed that “we have no information that he was listening to KLIF”. This interview is information.
Your implying that because he thought it might have been KLIF, it probably was KLIF.
When did I “imply” that?
No. The burden is on the people who claim Mr. Brewer could not possibly have heard such a broadcast.
What people claimed that?
The bottom line is that there is NO evidence of a radio announcement of Tippit’s death in Dallas prior to Oswald’s arrest.
Because the Dictabelt tapes record two policemen talking about just such a broadcast at 1:26 or 1:27. I don’t think either was hallucinating.
But you do think that Brewer hallucinated two IBM men in his shop. Go figure.
So, it must be assumed that such a broadcast did take place,
They said NBC. It can conclusively be shown that there was no such report by NBC, because the recordings exist.
No. I live in the San Francisco area. I listen on a radio to a CBS station, KCBS. They talk about the national news, the local news and the local weather and traffic. I assume the same is true throughout the country. Each major city would have its own local NBC radio station and not just broadcast the same that is broadcast out of New York. How else are people to find out about their local weather and traffic? Go to a competitor’s station?
If an affiliate station was giving a local report, then it wouldn’t be “NBC News” reporting it, it would be the local station. But that’s moot, because the local NBC radio affiliate at the time was WBAP, and as Jerry already pointed out, they made no such announcement either.
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There you go again: Ignoring the wailing cop-cars, news of the assassination, a guy observed by Brewer to be attempting to hide, and then conclude that Brewer had no reason to suspect anything.
Strawman. I made no such argument. And Brewer never said “attempting to hide”.
Now show us where Brewer claimed to be doubting his reasons for following Oswald. Seems to me that's nothing but Iacoletti conjecture.
When did I ever ever claim he did?
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I am impervious to your verbal barbs.
You’re impervious to being coherent too.
Yeah, it’s quite a “CT nightmare” that Brewer heard a radio report that there is no evidence of. You’re mighty full of yourself.
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JOHNNY BREWER AND THE SHOOTING OF J.D. TIPPIT....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html
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MR.CHAPMAN: There you go again: Ignoring the wailing cop-cars, news of the assassination, a guy observed by Brewer to be attempting to hide, and then conclude that Brewer had no reason to suspect anything.
MR.IACOLETTI: Strawman. I made no such argument.
MR.CHAPMAN: Reply #8 July 31, 2020, 03:25:47 AM ("to justify why he was suspicious of this man")
MR.CHAPMAN: Now show us where Brewer claimed to be doubting his reasons for following Oswald. Seems to me that's nothing but Iacoletti conjecture.
MR.IACOLETTI: When did I ever ever claim he did?
Mr.CHAPMAN: Reply #8 July 31, 2020, 03:25:47 AM ("to justify why he was suspicious of this man")
MR.IACOLETTI: Brewer never said “attempting to hide'.
MR.CHAPMAN: ::) You and your semantics. 'Attempting to hide': Same difference as stepping into the foyer at the sudden approach of cop cars, turning his back, glancing over his shoulder, then leaving immediately after the cop cars disappear. But I guess Oswald was just shy. Btw, Brewer did not say the man was 'standing in front of his shop' as you claim (Reply #8 July 31, 2020, 03:25:47 AM) "to justify why he was suspicious of this man standing in front of his shop"
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You’re impervious to being coherent too.
Yeah, it’s quite a “CT nightmare” that Brewer heard a radio report that there is no evidence of. You’re mighty full of yourself.
1) You lot write in a way that gives you a 'deniability' escape-hatch.
2) My feet are firmly planted on the ground, as opposed to those hanging onto the CTer other-worldly standard-of-proof bar which has long since left our solar system.
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JOHNNY BREWER AND THE SHOOTING OF J.D. TIPPIT....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html
If..perhaps...maybe...could be...probably...might have... sorry--absolutely no certainty in that link.
In any event, even if Brewer didn't hear any pre-1:36 PM radio bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting, it's still quite clear to me from the weight of John Brewer's testimony and statements over the years that Brewer was suspicious of Lee Harvey Oswald's behavior and actions shortly after 1:30 PM on 11/22/63 (such as: Oswald turning his back to the street just as the police cars went roaring by). {so the story said}
And if some conspiracy theorists have a desire to totally discount and deem invalid all of Mr. Brewer's testimony because of this issue of whether he really did hear a radio bulletin at the time he said he heard it, then I think those conspiracists are making a big mistake.
As it turned out, Johnny Brewer was the person who was most directly responsible for setting the wheels in motion which ultimately led to the capture of President Kennedy's (accused) assassin in the Texas Theater less than 90 minutes after JFK was shot.
IOW it was just another totally amazing coincidence. Johnny Brewer notices a guy and for some reason decides that he is suspicious and looks dangerous [puny Oswald?]... and there was never any corroboration concerning this observation.
Why is a reasonable doubt considered a " big mistake"?
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If..perhaps...maybe...could be...probably...might have... sorry--absolutely no certainty in that link.IOW it was just another totally amazing coincidence. Johnny Brewer notices a guy and for some reason decides that he is suspicious and looks dangerous [puny Oswald?]... and there was never any corroboration concerning this observation.
Why is a reasonable doubt considered a " big mistake"?
Where did Brewer state that Oswald looked dangerous? This is not hard to figure out: The dangerous part would be following a guy who might well be armed, given his observed behaviour regarding the cop cars.
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Johnny Brewer notices a guy and for some reason decides that he is suspicious and looks dangerous [puny Oswald?]... and there was never any corroboration concerning this observation. Why is a reasonable doubt considered a "big mistake"?
Because common sense (alone) dictates it's a "big mistake" to totally discount everything Johnny Brewer had to say.
Why, you ask?
Because there must have been SOMETHING about Oswald and his demeanor on 11/22/63 that caused Brewer to leave his store and physically follow this guy (Oswald) up the street and into the Texas Theater. (And you surely don't deny that Brewer did follow Oswald into the movie theater, do you? Remember, Brewer himself was grabbed initially by the police when he opened the back door of the theater. Or do some conspiracy theorists think that incident was fabricated too?)
In short....
If Oswald really wasn't "acting funny" and looking "scared" and looking as if he had been "running" when Johnny Brewer saw him in the lobby of his shoe store, then please give me one good reason for Brewer wanting to follow this person up the street to the theater on November 22nd?
Any bright ideas? Or would you rather continue calling Johnny Calvin Brewer a big fat liar?
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What is the CTers alternative explanation for Brewer's behavior? That he was lying or somehow involved in the conspiracy to frame Oswald? It really doesn't add up. If you want to believe that Brewer behaved in an unreasonable manner by finding Oswald suspicious, then knock yourself out. It doesn't have any relevance unless you are claiming this is somehow evidence that he was involved in a conspiracy. And it doesn't do that.
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What is the CTers alternative explanation for Brewer's behavior? That he was lying or somehow involved in the conspiracy to frame Oswald?
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/wallbash.gif)(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/deadhorsebeat_2.gif)
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(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/wallbash.gif)(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/deadhorsebeat_2.gif)
Very informative as always. I can understand though why you don't want to answer.
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Why is Brewer making his statement two weeks after the assassination?
And Postal - December 4th - 12 days after the event?
We have statements from the bus driver and the cab driver by Nov 23rd.
And, as pointed out, the Postal and Brewer affadavits do not match up.
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JOHNNY BREWER AND THE SHOOTING OF J.D. TIPPIT....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html
Well, as usual, David was able to shine some light on the situation. But it is still a little murky to me.
The Dictabelt recording show the police discussing NBC reporting the shooting of a police officer at 1:27 and 1:28. So I would assume that the local NBC radio station had reported this by this time.
But can we confirm this? Do we have a recording of the local NBC Dallas area radio station?
First, which was the local NBC Dallas area radio station? The following website:
http://www.dfwradioarchives.info/1960s.htm (http://www.dfwradioarchives.info/1960s.htm)
shows that all through 1960 through 1965, the frequency of the local Dallas NBC radio station was 820 AM. And the frequency of the local ABC radio station was 570 AM. Now, what muddles things up is that but WBAP and WFAA would alternate using the 820 AM and the 570 AM frequencies, as explained here:
https://flashbackdallas.com/2014/06/15/wfaa-and-wbaps-unusual-broadcasting-alliance/ (https://flashbackdallas.com/2014/06/15/wfaa-and-wbaps-unusual-broadcasting-alliance/)
That is, during certain times of the day WFAA would broadcast on 820 AM (NBC) while WBAP would broadcast on 570 AM (ABC). Then they would reverse during other hours, WBAP on 820 AM (NBC) and WFAA on 570 AM (ABC). So sometimes WBAP would be broadcast on the ABC frequency and at other times on the NBC frequency. And WFAA would be doing the opposite.
So, what we need are the complete broadcast of both WBAP and WFAA during 1:10 through 1:40, to confirm or refute such a broadcast ever took place. Or, more simply, just a complete broadcast of the 820 AM frequency, which was only used by NBC, at certain times of the day called WBAP, and at others WFAA.
In other words, we are not looking for the WBAP or the WFAA broadcast, but for the broadcast on the 820 AM frequency, since this was always the NBC broadcast. Whether at the moment it is calling itself WBAP or WFAA. While the broadcast on the 570 AM frequency was always ABC.
None of the radio broadcasts that users here have posted answer that question:
The JFK Assassination: As It Happened NBC NBC News Special
Is clearly not the local NBC station, but the national station in New York. It gives its time for the Eastern Time Zone, not the Central Time Zone.
KLIF does record over the time period, but it was not the local Dallas NBC station.
The KBOX recording starts too late and is not the local Dallas NBC station.
The WBAP recording starts on time and might be the NBC broadcast, but might also be the ABC broadcast. Except we know it is the ABC broadcast, because within the first minute, the first thing the announcer says is that this is 570 AM Radio for Fort Worth/Dallas, . . .WBAP and ABC. Clearly this is the local ABC broadcast on frequency 570 AM, not the local NBC broadcast on frequency 820 AM.
So, we have no proof that a local Dallas radio station did or did not report this before 1:35. But we do have the Dictabelt recording showing two officers discussing such a broadcast. So, unless we ever find radio recordings on frequency 820 AM during this time that shows this did not happen, we must conclude that such a broadcast did happen. We have evidence that it did and no evidence that it did not.
Do we have any reliable information on what station Johnny Brewer was listening to? If so, that might make it irrelevant what the local NBC radio station broadcast. Well, the best information we have is an interview of Mr. Brewer that was conducted 33 years later:
ILG: I know this is a crazy question but is there any way of recalling which programme, which station, you were listening to?
JCB: A Dallas station. I have a feeling it may have been KLIF. That would be one of the stations that I would ordinarily be listening to, but I honestly don't know. It was just the normal run of the motorcade and all of a sudden you hear all the commotion and then you hear something about shots being fired and then -- you know.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page
I would like to point out the possibility that Mr. Brewer may have usually listened to a popular local music station, like KLIF. But for following the news about the motorcade for that day, he might have opted for a local news station, possibly NBC on 820 AM.
CTers claims that these statements clearly show that Mr. Brewer was definitely listening to KLIF, and show he could not have heard the announcement. And since he was wrong about hearing the announcement, he must have either been mistaken or lying, and we must assume lying.
There are a few points I wish to make:
1. Mr. Brewer’s statement about listening to KLIF were 33 years old. And were part of the same interview where he also recalls two IBM employees who, on a work day, were lounging around the shoe store with him, killing time, and were with him all during this time, up until Oswald showed up. In contrast, his statement that he heard over the radio that a policeman had been shot was taken just 2 weeks after the assassination. Why should the 33-year-old memory be considered more reliable than the 2-week-old statement? /
2. Even in the 33-year-old statement, Mr. Brewer does not claim he was definitely listening to KLIF. He says he can’t remember, but it might have been KLIF.
3. CTers want to cherry pick which of the statements Mr. Brewer made over the years are reliable and which are not. The 33-year-old memory of him maybe listening to KLIF is to be considered an absolutely reliable memory, except that Mr. Brewer thought he might have been listening to KLIF where we must assume, he was definitely listening to KLIF. Otherwise, this is an absolutely reliable memory. And since this ‘absolutely reliable’ tentative and 33-year-old memory contradicts the 2-week old statement, we must conclude that the 2-week old statement is either a mistake or a lie. And we must conclude it was a lie. Therefore, Mr. Brewer was lying beyond all possible doubt.
And finally, to clarify, I am not stating the Mr. Brewer was definitely listening to NBC on 820 AM radio. And that this broadcast most definitely carried the news that a police officer was shot at least as early as 1:28 CST. I am just stating that CTers claims that this could not have happened are false. We definitely don’t know if Mr. Brewer’s statement is a lie, or even false.
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Well, as usual, David was able to shine some light on the situation.
Really?But it is still a little murky to me.
Sounds like a contradiction. The Dictabelt recording show the police discussing NBC reporting the shooting of a police officer at 1:27 and 1:28. So I would assume that the local NBC radio station had reported this by this time.
Time to re-reevaluate there because that is not true....
On 2.
75 (Ptm. E.G. Sabastian) 75.
Dispatcher 75.
75 NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher That's correct.
75 (?) That the officer?
Dispatcher Yes.
87 (?) (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) 87.
75 . . . on the President?
Dispatcher No, that's not correct, 19.
What officer was it?
Dispatcher J.D. Tippit.
87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) 87.
Dispatcher 87.
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm
There is absolutely no indication there of an NBC report that a cop was shot. Even patrol units thought that this was about the president.But can we confirm this? Do we have a recording of the local NBC Dallas area radio station?
See Reply #14 ..how many times must it be linked? Stop chasing your tail. Next you guys will be claiming that Brewer must have been listening to the police channel and he just forgot.
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Really?Sounds like a contradiction. Time to re-reevaluate there because that is not true....https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm
There is absolutely no indication there of an NBC report that a cop was shot. Even patrol units thought that this was about the president
E. G. Sabastian asked about the police officer. Only R. C. Nelson asked if the message was about the President, hoping that it wasn’t about a fellow officer. And I imagine R. C. Nelson’s questions were prompted about the exchange he just heard between E. G. Sabastian and the dispatcher.
And the police confusing an NBC announcement about the President with the police officer is unlikely because the death reported by the media was a ‘DOA’. ‘Dead On Arrival’. President Kennedy was not DOA nor every reported by the media as DOA. He still have a weak heartbeat and breathing and the doctors worked on him for 10 minutes. Only Officer Tippit was DOA.
Clearly E. G. Sabastian thought he had just heard NBC announce that a police officer was DOA. Was he somehow mistaken? Only a recording of the broadcast by NBC on frequency 820 AM, continuous broadcast over 1:10 through 1:40, can answer that question. Until this is done, we must assume that he did.
See Reply #14 ..how many times must it be linked?
Once. Once will do. But you nor anyone else has done so. Your ‘Reply #14’ refers to the WBAP broadcast on frequency 570 AM, the ABC radio station. We need the broadcast on frequency 820 AM, the NBC radio station. Which no one has provided.
E. G. Sabastian specifically referred to a bulletin from NBC News. So, a recording by KBOX, KLIV or WBAP over 570 AM which is ABC, or even NBC in New York will not do. We need the local NBC recording.
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Really?Sounds like a contradiction. Time to re-reevaluate there because that is not true....https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm
There is absolutely no indication there of an NBC report that a cop was shot. Even patrol units thought that this was about the president
E. G. Sabastian asked about the police officer. Only R. C. Nelson asked if the message was about the President, hoping that it wasn’t about a fellow officer. And I imagine R. C. Nelson’s questions were prompted about the exchange he just heard between E. G. Sabastian and the dispatcher.
And the police confusing an NBC announcement about the President with the police officer is unlikely because the death reported by the media was a ‘DOA’. ‘Dead On Arrival’. President Kennedy was not DOA nor every reported by the media as DOA. He still had a weak heartbeat and weak breathing and the doctors worked on him for 10 minutes. Only Officer Tippit was DOA.
Clearly E. G. Sabastian thought he had just heard NBC announce that a police officer was DOA. Was he somehow mistaken? Only a recording of the broadcast by NBC on frequency 820 AM, continuous broadcast over 1:10 through 1:40, can answer that question. Until this is done, we must assume that he did.
See Reply #14 ..how many times must it be linked?
Once. Once will do. But you nor anyone else has done so. Your ‘Reply #14’ refers to the WBAP broadcast on frequency 570 AM, the ABC radio station. We need the broadcast on frequency 820 AM, the NBC radio station. Which no one has provided.
E. G. Sabastian specifically referred to a bulletin from NBC News. So, a recording by KBOX, KLIV or WBAP over 570 AM which is ABC, or even NBC in New York will not do. We need the local NBC recording.
To summarize, what the CTers want:
• We need the local NBC broadcast on frequency 820 AM, from 1:10 to 1:40 (to allow for time misestimates) before we can conclude that Mr. Brewer’s memory of hearing such a broadcast must be false. We need to prove that both Officer E. G. Sabastian and Mr. Brewer somehow got confused about hearing such a broadcast.
• Upon proving Mr. Brewer’s false statement was a lie, we need to prove that it was not an honest mistake, like the one Officer E. G. Sabastian allegedly made, but a lie. This can never be proved. And there is no motive for making such a lie.
Right now, we need to make a couple of big and unwarranted leaps of faith before we can conclude that Mr. Brewer was lying about anything and so we have an excuse for ignoring everything he said that implicates Oswald, which is all the CTers are looking for.
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E. G. Sabastian asked about the police officer. Only R. C. Nelson asked if the message was about the President, hoping that it wasn’t about a fellow officer.
How do you know what a cop was "hoping"? President Kennedy was not DOA
So? How many people really knew that at that time?
Clearly E. G. Sabastian thought he had just heard NBC announce that a police officer was DOA. Was he somehow mistaken? Only a recording of the broadcast by NBC on frequency 820 AM, continuous broadcast over 1:10 through 1:40, can answer that question. Until this is done, we must assume that he did.
How do you know that the reference was to NBC 820 AM radio? TV was the main media at the time. Why must "we assume" there was an 820 broadcast? At 1:30 all ears were glued to what was the fate of the president. What you are doing is basically stating that--- [using 1:15 as the time of the shooting] ---in less than 12 minutes!...some news report states the cop "DOA"! Now how was that humanly possible?
To summarize, what the CTers want: We need the local NBC broadcast on frequency 820 AM
You are a "CT" ? OK, But I am not. I am a skeptic. How do you know there was even a broadcast on 820?
As you mention ...there was a time share involved with the AM broadcasts--The station then moved to Fort Worth after being purchased by Amon Carter, getting the new call sign WFAA. (In the early days of radio, stations in Texas were given call letters beginning with a "W."). WFAA and WBAP had a shared time agreement that lasted until May 1, 1970, when WFAA operated on 570 alone and WBAP became the sole operator on 820.
So the request may just be for some broadcast that didn't exist. The NBC broadcasting was given in replies #14 and the New York feed #18. You yourself posted the NBC TV feed. Why not just listen to them? If you hear about the policeman being shot please point out the section.
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How do you know what a cop was "hoping"?
It is logical.
So? How many people really knew that at that time?
Millions. The radio broadcasts kept stressing that the President and the Governor were wounded, both in critical condition with the doctors working to save their lives. No one reported either as DOA.
How do you know that the reference was to NBC 820 AM radio? TV was the main media at the time. Why must "we assume" there was an 820 broadcast?
Was the policeman E. G. Sabastian watching TV? The main NBC TV broadcast reporters were not set up to monitor the Dallas police department radio. Only the local news stations were set up to do that.
And because of the link I posted before:
http://www.dfwradioarchives.info/1960s.htm
In each of the years, 1960 through 1965, the NBC station was 820 AM, the ABC station was 570 AM. Sometimes the local station WBAP would be broadcasting on 820 AM for NBC. Sometimes it was WFAA. But when either was broadcasting for NBC it was always on 820 AM.
We know it was not on the NBC TV Broadcast. We know it was not on the national NBC radio broadcast out of New York, which I don’t know was available in Dallas on any station. That leaves the local NBC 820 AM frequency. To know that Mr. Brewer could not have heard such an announcement, we need a recording of the broadcast on that day for 820 AM. Without it, no one can say that Mr. Brewer could not have heard that announcement before Oswald showed up.
So, yes, you need to find the 820 AM broadcast to prove no NBC station made such an announcement.
At 1:30 all ears were glued to what was the fate of the president. What you are doing is basically stating that--- [using 1:15 as the time of the shooting] ---in less than 12 minutes!...some news report states the cop "DOA"! Now how was that humanly possible?You are a "CT" ? OK, But I am not. I am a skeptic. How do you know there was even a broadcast on 820?
Easy. Reporters compete the get out news as fast as possible. I have heard that several local stations monitor the police radio frequency. They might even have found out from hanging around police headquarters, a good place to be where reports are first funneled into. In any case, monitoring the police radio frequencies can allow them to get the information at the speed of light. They can have the news as soon as the police dispatcher did, within a minute or two.
I don’t know for certain if it did happen or not. Although if it didn’t happen, I’m mighty perplexed out how Officer E. G. Sabastian became convinced that it did happen and report this immediately. In any case, it is not impossible nor extremely unlikely. Mr. Brewer might get confused within the next two weeks. Officer E. G. Sabastian? That’s a harder sell.
As you mention ...there was a time share involved with the AM broadcasts--So the request may just be for some broadcast that didn't exist. The NBC broadcasting was given in replies #14 and the New York feed #18. You yourself posted the NBC TV feed. Why not just listen to them? If you hear about the policeman being shot please point out the section.
Reply # 14, for WBAP was the ABC feed. It said at the beginning, in the first minute, that it was an ABC broadcast, on 570 AM. Checking the ABC feed tells us nothing.
Reply # 18 was the New York NBC radio broadcast, which, as far as I know, was not even available in Dallas without a special radio. Checking the national NBC feed that a regular radio could not get in Dallas tells us nothing.
You need the NBC 820 AM broadcast, to eliminate the possibility of Mr. Brewer hearing it. Otherwise, with Officer E. G. Sabastian reporting immediately that he just heard such an NBC announcement, with Mr. Brewer saying within two weeks that he heard such an announcement, they probably both heard such an announcement.
I used to believe that Mr. Brewer probably could not have heard that announcement. New evidence caused me to change my mind. It will take new evidence to cause me to change it back.
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MR.CHAPMAN: There you go again: Ignoring the wailing cop-cars, news of the assassination, a guy observed by Brewer to be attempting to hide, and then conclude that Brewer had no reason to suspect anything.
MR.IACOLETTI: Strawman. I made no such argument.
MR.CHAPMAN: Reply #8 July 31, 2020, 03:25:47 AM ("to justify why he was suspicious of this man")
MR.CHAPMAN: Now show us where Brewer claimed to be doubting his reasons for following Oswald. Seems to me that's nothing but Iacoletti conjecture.
MR.IACOLETTI: When did I ever ever claim he did?
Mr.CHAPMAN: Reply #8 July 31, 2020, 03:25:47 AM ("to justify why he was suspicious of this man")
MR.IACOLETTI: Brewer never said “attempting to hide'.
MR.CHAPMAN: ::) You and your semantics. 'Attempting to hide': Same difference as stepping into the foyer at the sudden approach of cop cars, turning his back, glancing over his shoulder, then leaving immediately after the cop cars disappear. But I guess Oswald was just shy. Btw, Brewer did not say the man was 'standing in front of his shop' as you claim (Reply #8 July 31, 2020, 03:25:47 AM) "to justify why he was suspicious of this man standing in front of his shop"
Typical Chapman. He makes a claim ("attempting to hide") that a witness never said, and when called on it, he whines about "semantics".
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Where did Brewer state that Oswald looked dangerous? This is not hard to figure out: The dangerous part would be following a guy who might well be armed, given his observed behaviour regarding the cop cars.
Yeah, because in Chapman-land, looking in a window while cop-cars are going by means "armed".
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If Oswald really wasn't "acting funny" and looking "scared" and looking as if he had been "running" when Johnny Brewer saw him in the lobby of his shoe store, then please give me one good reason for Brewer wanting to follow this person up the street to the theater on November 22nd?
Brewer didn't really have one -- hence the fabricated radio report.
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The Dictabelt recording show the police discussing NBC reporting the shooting of a police officer at 1:27 and 1:28. So I would assume that the local NBC radio station had reported this by this time.
Again, the policeman on the recording said "NBC News is reporting DOA". Not WBAP or the local NBC radio affiliate, or whatever. NBC News made no such report. End of story. And just because a cop says something over the police radio doesn't mean that you can assume it's true anyway.
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Joe bases his theory on some obscure radio report that he nor anyone else seems able to find.
Such a phantom broadcast is possible but yet it is impossible for Brewer's statements to have been just a yarn?
The Sixth Floor Museum may offer something more about the radio broadcasts.....
https://www.jfk.org/sixth-floor-museum-acquires-jfk-assassination-coverage-collection-cumulus-media-wbap-820/
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Reply # 14, for WBAP was the ABC feed. It said at the beginning, in the first minute, that it was an ABC broadcast, on 570 AM. Checking the ABC feed tells us nothing.
Listen to the WBAP video around time stamp 3:15:00 - 3:45:00. They are definitely carrying NBC coverage at that time. The official flash from Kilduff is reported at timestamp 3:37:00. There is a 1:00 time-check at timestamp 03:05:05.
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Yeah, because in Chapman-land, looking in a window while cop-cars are going by means "armed".
Yeah, while looking in a window set inside the foyer, away from the sidewalk
Yeah, while watching cop-cars 'going by' at speed with sirens wailing.
Yeah, while catching the attention of Brewer.
Oh, yeah... show us were I said anything more than that being armed would be a possibility given Brewer's description of the scene.
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Brewer didn't really have one -- hence the fabricated radio report.
You've always denied being a CT
Are you now claiming Brewer was in on some sort of plot?
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Typical Chapman. He makes a claim ("attempting to hide") that a witness never said, and when called on it, he whines about "semantics".
FFS. My 'trying to hide' description sums up Brewer's observations. Now stop whining about Brewer just because your hero was stopped from shooting more cops.
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Lest we not forget the CBS station--KRLD 1080 AM.....
The official announcement -- 42:15
At 54:47 it is announced that police had "picked up a 24 year old suspect as the possible killer".
The guy who supplied that report was non other than Dan Rather. [Who knows what that was about?]
At 1:05 on the first mention of police surrounding the person believed to be be the assassin. The dragnet was out at [Dealey] and Oak Cliff.
1:23:30 The first mention [that I heard] of Tippit's shooting death. Oswald mentioned by name.
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Brewer didn't really have one [a reason to follow Oswald to the theater] -- hence the fabricated radio report.
So you think Brewer followed LHO up the street for no reason whatsoever, is that it?
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So you think Brewer followed LHO up the street for no reason whatsoever, is that it?
Actually, it is an interesting question.
Who closes down his own store to follow some guy, he sees in the window, down the street?
What if the man Brewer saw/followed did not go to the Texas Theater, just how far would Brewer have gone to follow him and for what purpose?
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Actually, it is an interesting question.
'Who closes down his own store to follow some guy he sees in the window down the street?'
Johnny Brewer
What if the man Brewer saw/followed did not go to the Texas Theater, just how far would Brewer have gone to follow him and for what purpose?
LOL
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'Who closes down his own store to follow some guy he sees in the window down the street?'
Johnny Brewer
Just wondering...but where does Brewer say that he "closed down the store"?
I read the affidavit ..the testimony...the interview...and it seems that some IBM pals of his were in the store and he just up and left them hanging [or so it seems]-- So what was up with all that?
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Just wondering...but where does Brewer say that he "closed down the store"?
I read the affidavit ..the testimony...the interview...and it seems that some IBM pals of his were in the store and he just up and left them hanging [or so it seems]-- So what was up with all that?
Why are you asking me? Ask Weidmann. He claimed the closing. But he has a point, since probably the majority of people in Brewer's shoes wouldn't have had the guts to follow up.
And I can't vouch for the IBM guys.
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Why are you asking me?
Because you responded to the statement...are you asleep?
And I can't vouch for the IBM guys.
What does that mean? Did you not read Brewer's interview?
I guess not ....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page)
What about the question to Brewer...
"...Can you remember when you heard about the Tippit killing-the shooting of the policeman?"
Answer..."I've never really thought about it".
That response alone shows me he was blowing smoke out of his wazoo.
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Because you responded to the statement...are you asleep?What does that mean? Did you not read Brewer's interview?
I guess not ....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page)
What about the question to Brewer...
"...Can you remember when you heard about the Tippit killing-the shooting of the policeman?"
Answer..."I've never really thought about it".
That response alone shows me he was blowing smoke out of his wazoo.
Leaving your ad-hom & wazoo references aside for the moment, tell us exactly how much Brewer had heard about the shooting in Oak Cliff by the time the cop-cars and Oswald showed up.
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Leaving your ad-hom & wazoo references aside for the moment, tell us exactly how much Brewer had heard about the shooting in Oak Cliff by the time the cop-cars and Oswald showed up.
Who me?
I've never really thought about it :D
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You've always denied being a CT
Are you now claiming Brewer was in on sort of plot?
Where did you get that idea?
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FFS. My 'trying to hide' description sums up Brewer's observations.
As usual, your "sum-ups" have no relation to reality. That's because you don't know squat about the case and you're just here to regale us all with your "clever repartee".
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So you think Brewer followed LHO up the street for no reason whatsoever, is that it?
What I think is that there is no evidence that there was a radio broadcast of Tippit's shooting that early, so it seems that the reason he gave was fabricated after the fact.
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So we have this thread, and then the " unsung heroes" thread, which argues the same points about Mr Brewer. Unconvincingly, I might add.
Mr. Collins: the horse is dead. Please stop beating it.
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As usual, your "sum-ups" have no relation to reality. That's because you don't know squat about the case and you're just here to regale us all with your "clever repartee".
I just tell the tell.
And you've summed up yourself @DeadOswald.
And the reality is that Oswald remains prime suspect to this day.
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Who me?
I've never really thought about it :D
I agree. You haven't.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mpm4X6n3/Brewer-Tippit-info-2.png)
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The reality is that Oswald remains prime suspect to this day.
Based on what?
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Based on what?
Nobody else on base
They've all struck out
Feel free to send in a pinch-hitter
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Nobody else on base
They've all struck out
Feel free to send in a pinch-hitter
LOL. Back to the usual Chapman contentless wasting of time.
He's the "prime suspect", just because.
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LOL. Back to the usual Chapman contentless wasting of time.
He's the "prime suspect", just because.
No pinch hitter, huh
You lot keep striking out
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(https://i.postimg.cc/Mpm4X6n3/Brewer-Tippit-info-2.png)
Bill posted another contradiction in Brewer's statements.
He still must have not read the interview!
Wake up Bill!
See what Brewer says in that interview--- that he didn't recall that the broadcast said anything about a policeman.
There you have it. Changing his story-- [an obviously guilty conscience perhaps?]
Brewer himself denied there any reason to suspect anyone of anything.
Watch the Oswald did it-bots profess that Brewer must have had a divine revelation [even though he doesn't seem to say so himself]
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What I think is that there is no evidence that there was a radio broadcast of Tippit's shooting that early, so it seems that the reason he gave was fabricated after the fact.
Nonsense. Brewer didn't "fabricate" anything.
I think Brewer was probably listening to KBOX Radio on 11/22/63. And Dale Myers seems to think so too....
http://jfk-assassination-as-it-happened.blogspot.com/2015/12/kbox-radio.html
"KBOX Radio might have been the station that Johnny Brewer had turned on that day, because within the first minute of the KBOX coverage [linked above] (which equates to about 1:35 PM CST), there's a bulletin which states: "We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital." (If that report was referring to Officer Tippit, then there are two errors in it, because Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital, not Parkland, and Tippit, of course, was not a "detective". But later radio reports did also make the mistake of calling the slain policeman "Detective Tippit". So that KBOX bulletin probably is referring to Officer Tippit's death. And if that's the case, then Johnny Brewer could have heard about the Tippit shooting prior to seeing Oswald come into the lobby area of his shoe store. And it's also possible that KBOX could have provided a bulletin about the policeman's shooting even earlier than 1:35, but I have no way to confirm whether they did or not, because the version of the KBOX material in my collection begins at about 1:35 PM.)
[...]
"I'm certainly willing to accept the possibility that Johnny Brewer might have gotten mixed up concerning the precise time when he first heard the news about a police officer being shot in Oak Cliff. Perhaps he did hear that news a little later in the day. But also keep in mind the 1:35 PM KBOX report about the DOA "detective" (which is a remarkably speedy bulletin, because KBOX not only was reporting on the wounding of a police officer, they were already reporting on the death of that policeman as early as 1:35), which tends to indicate that at least one Dallas-area radio station was reporting the officer's shooting at a time which would be perfectly consistent with Johnny Brewer's account of only seeing Oswald after hearing about the policeman's shooting on the radio.
"The KBOX audio footage I provided does not, however, give the necessary detail about the shooting taking place in Oak Cliff, but, as I mentioned earlier, it's possible that such an "Oak Cliff" detail was mentioned in an earlier KBOX bulletin, which preceded the point in time when my truncated copy of the coverage begins.
"In any event, even if Brewer didn't hear any pre-1:36 PM radio bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting, it's still quite clear to me from the weight of John Brewer's testimony and statements over the years that Brewer was suspicious of Lee Harvey Oswald's behavior and actions shortly after 1:30 PM on 11/22/63 (such as: Oswald turning his back to the street just as the police cars went roaring by).
[...]
"BTW / FYI .... Here is a CBS-TV interview with Johnny Brewer from 1964 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZElxNDFOdnRJWE0/view). In this interview, Brewer says this: "Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff." " -- DVP; April 18, 2019
-----------
From Dale Myers....
"My work on this issue was quite exhaustive and appears as endnote No. 617 (pages 738-739 of the 2013 Edition of “With Malice”). ....
A 1:59 p.m. KBOX report from newsman Sam Pate repeats information known to have been previously broadcast, including a report about the Tippit shooting (“Moments ago a police officer reported to have been shot down at Tenth and Patton in the Oak Cliff area. Several squads of police, approximately twenty men, ordered to the Oak Cliff area. A late word shows that the police officer was dead on arrival at Methodist Hospital.”). This KBOX report on the Tippit shooting was probably broadcast earlier on KBOX shortly after 1:31 p.m. when it was reported over the Dallas police radio that Tippit was DOA at Methodist Hospital." -- Dale K. Myers; E-Mail To DVP On April 19, 2019
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html
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Brewer didn't "fabricate" anything.
What he didn't fabricate you guys do.
What about the post above?
.. that he didn't recall that the broadcast said anything about a policeman.
What about the question to Brewer...
"...Can you remember when you heard about the Tippit killing-the shooting of the policeman?"
Answer..."I've never really thought about it".
"We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital." (If that report was referring to Officer Tippit)
IF..if..We know it wasn't. Quit reaching.
In any event, it's quite clear that at least one of the radio stations in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area had provided, prior to approximately 1:36 PM (Dallas time), a bulletin concerning the shooting of a police officer in Oak Cliff. We know that whatever radio station Johnny Calvin Brewer was listening to on 11/22/63 most definitely did broadcast such a bulletin (most likely somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM).
Evidence imagined is evidence proven? Where is that "clear" bulletin? I have failed to hear it.
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What about the question to Brewer...
"...Can you remember when you heard about the Tippit killing-the shooting of the policeman?"
Answer..."I've never really thought about it".
And yet we have Brewer telling Eddie Barker of CBS this in 1964....
"Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff."
Go figure.
Where is that "clear" bulletin? I have failed to hear it.
That certainly doesn't mean no such bulletin existed. Go find the KBOX-Radio coverage from 1:15 PM to 1:35 PM. If you can find it, I'll bet you'd find the bulletin in question. But since it evidently wasn't preserved, all we can do is guess (and all the conspiracy theorists can do, therefore, is to pretend no such broadcast ever existed).
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Go figure. I'll bet you'd find the bulletin in question.
I will go very slowly one more time-----The KBOX recording that we do hear [pt 1] starts with the announcement..JFK died. Then it recaps--- "a suspect about 30 yrs old was in custody" and "also one Dallas police detective arrived at Parkland DOA". Little surprising information until---
At 24:30 into that recording it states "moments ago a police officer reported to have been shot down at 10th and Patton...several squads of police have been ordered to that area."
That is....moments ago...this being 25 minutes after the announcement JFK died at the beginning of the recording!
Now how long is a moment? Certainly not 25 minutes.
Why would someone say moments ago if the bulletin had already been announced a half hour earlier?
The KBOX broadcast is found in reply # 43.
All the lone assassin theorists can do, therefore, is to pretend that some other phantom broadcast existed.
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Nonsense. Brewer didn't "fabricate" anything.
I think Brewer was probably listening to KBOX Radio on 11/22/63. And Dale Myers seems to think so too....
http://jfk-assassination-as-it-happened.blogspot.com/2015/12/kbox-radio.html
"KBOX Radio might have been the station that Johnny Brewer had turned on that day, because within the first minute of the KBOX coverage [linked above] (which equates to about 1:35 PM CST), there's a bulletin which states: "We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital." (If that report was referring to Officer Tippit, then there are two errors in it, because Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital, not Parkland, and Tippit, of course, was not a "detective". But later radio reports did also make the mistake of calling the slain policeman "Detective Tippit". So that KBOX bulletin probably is referring to Officer Tippit's death. And if that's the case, then Johnny Brewer could have heard about the Tippit shooting prior to seeing Oswald come into the lobby area of his shoe store. And it's also possible that KBOX could have provided a bulletin about the policeman's shooting even earlier than 1:35, but I have no way to confirm whether they did or not, because the version of the KBOX material in my collection begins at about 1:35 PM.)
[...]
"I'm certainly willing to accept the possibility that Johnny Brewer might have gotten mixed up concerning the precise time when he first heard the news about a police officer being shot in Oak Cliff. Perhaps he did hear that news a little later in the day. But also keep in mind the 1:35 PM KBOX report about the DOA "detective" (which is a remarkably speedy bulletin, because KBOX not only was reporting on the wounding of a police officer, they were already reporting on the death of that policeman as early as 1:35), which tends to indicate that at least one Dallas-area radio station was reporting the officer's shooting at a time which would be perfectly consistent with Johnny Brewer's account of only seeing Oswald after hearing about the policeman's shooting on the radio.
"The KBOX audio footage I provided does not, however, give the necessary detail about the shooting taking place in Oak Cliff, but, as I mentioned earlier, it's possible that such an "Oak Cliff" detail was mentioned in an earlier KBOX bulletin, which preceded the point in time when my truncated copy of the coverage begins.
"In any event, even if Brewer didn't hear any pre-1:36 PM radio bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting, it's still quite clear to me from the weight of John Brewer's testimony and statements over the years that Brewer was suspicious of Lee Harvey Oswald's behavior and actions shortly after 1:30 PM on 11/22/63 (such as: Oswald turning his back to the street just as the police cars went roaring by).
[...]
"BTW / FYI .... Here is a CBS-TV interview with Johnny Brewer from 1964 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZElxNDFOdnRJWE0/view). In this interview, Brewer says this: "Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff." " -- DVP; April 18, 2019
-----------
From Dale Myers....
"My work on this issue was quite exhaustive and appears as endnote No. 617 (pages 738-739 of the 2013 Edition of “With Malice”). ....
A 1:59 p.m. KBOX report from newsman Sam Pate repeats information known to have been previously broadcast, including a report about the Tippit shooting (“Moments ago a police officer reported to have been shot down at Tenth and Patton in the Oak Cliff area. Several squads of police, approximately twenty men, ordered to the Oak Cliff area. A late word shows that the police officer was dead on arrival at Methodist Hospital.”). This KBOX report on the Tippit shooting was probably broadcast earlier on KBOX shortly after 1:31 p.m. when it was reported over the Dallas police radio that Tippit was DOA at Methodist Hospital." -- Dale K. Myers; E-Mail To DVP On April 19, 2019
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html
"KBOX Radio might have been the station that Johnny Brewer had turned on that day, because within the first minute of the KBOX coverage [linked above] (which equates to about 1:35 PM CST), there's a bulletin which states: "We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital." (If that report was referring to Officer Tippit, then there are two errors in it, because Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital, not Parkland, and Tippit, of course, was not a "detective". But later radio reports did also make the mistake of calling the slain policeman "Detective Tippit". So that KBOX bulletin probably is referring to Officer Tippit's death. And if that's the case, then Johnny Brewer could have heard about the Tippit shooting prior to seeing Oswald come into the lobby area of his shoe store.
Sorry David, but this fails to convince for two reasons;
First, it's highly speculative on your (and Myers') part where you try to morph a reported death of a detective at Parkland into Tippit's death at Methodist, without a shred of evidence. Just after Kennedy was killed, there were - apparently erroneous - reports about a Secret Service man being also shot and killed, about a pool of blood in the sidewalk and so on. The report about a detective being reported dead at Parkland could just as easily have been one of those erroneous reports and thus have nothing to do with Tippit at all.
Secondly, and more importantly, even if Brewer heard the report about a Detective being reported dead at Parkland, it still would have told him nothing about Tippit being killed at 10th and Patton. Brewer told CBS in 1964:
"Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff."
which means he couldn't be talking about the KBOX report, as he would have no way of knowing that the report - as you suggest - was actually about an officer being killed in Oak Cliff.
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Bill posted another contradiction in Brewer's statements.
He still must have not read the interview!
Wake up Bill!
See what Brewer says in that interview--- that he didn't recall that the broadcast said anything about a policeman.
There you have it. Changing his story-- [an obviously guilty conscience perhaps?]
Brewer himself denied there any reason to suspect anyone of anything.
Watch the Oswald did it-bots profess that Brewer must have had a divine revelation [even though he doesn't seem to say so himself]
'Changing his story' from what, exactly..
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And yet we have Brewer telling Eddie Barker of CBS this in 1964....
"Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff."
Go figure.
That certainly doesn't mean no such bulletin existed. Go find the KBOX-Radio coverage from 1:15 PM to 1:35 PM. If you can find it, I'll bet you'd find the bulletin in question. But since it evidently wasn't preserved, all we can do is guess (and all the conspiracy theorists can do, therefore, is to pretend no such broadcast ever existed).
'Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff'
I understand from the Griggs interview that by the time Oswald showed up, Brewer had only heard about a shooting in Oak Cliff, not that an officer had been the victim.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mpm4X6n3/Brewer-Tippit-info-2.png)
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No pinch hitter, huh
You lot keep striking out
Thanks again for your always useful advancement of knowledge regarding the evidence in this case.
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Nonsense. Brewer didn't "fabricate" anything.
I think Brewer was probably listening to KBOX Radio on 11/22/63.
The only, and I mean ONLY reason to think this is "probably" true is that KBOX is the only station for which there is no extant audio for the time period in question. Which is as circular an argument as there can be.
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And yet we have Brewer telling Eddie Barker of CBS this in 1964....
"Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff."
Go figure.
That certainly doesn't mean no such bulletin existed. Go find the KBOX-Radio coverage from 1:15 PM to 1:35 PM. If you can find it, I'll bet you'd find the bulletin in question. But since it evidently wasn't preserved, all we can do is guess (and all the conspiracy theorists can do, therefore, is to pretend no such broadcast ever existed).
"all we can do is guess"
Precisely.
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The National Archives supposedly has the original KBOX tapes, but "cannot locate them".
The commonly heard Sam Pate recording ("something has happened in the motorcade route") was a re-creation done for the "Four Days That Shocked the World" LP record.
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Thanks again for your always useful advancement of knowledge regarding the evidence in this case.
I'm just telling the tell. Batting clean-up.
Using my artistic-license privileges.
You lot can't even manage a Texas-leaguer, ffs.
Seems you 'knowledge-advancers' are going to need a walk-off homer.
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The National Archives supposedly has the original KBOX tapes, but "cannot locate them".
The Sixth Floor Museum has all the radio tapes that have been linked. After reading reply #81 [which pretty well defines the event] why is any further searching even needed?
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Listen to the WBAP video around time stamp 3:15:00 - 3:45:00. They are definitely carrying NBC coverage at that time. The official flash from Kilduff is reported at timestamp 3:37:00. There is a 1:00 time-check at timestamp 03:05:05.
You are correct. Up to 11:54 PM CST (2:55:40 on the recording), it was broadcasting for ABC, 570 AM. Then the recording stopped.
On the tape recording, it immediately resumed again, but over an hour had passed. It started recording at about 12:50 PM CST (2:55:52 on the recording). You are right, by that time, WBAP had switched to NBC on 820 AM. And it was NBC during 1:00 through 1:40.
But what could cause Officer E. G. Sabastian “NBC News is reporting DOA” when we now know that NBC did not report this?
Well, listening to various radio recordings, I see that stations only occasionally identify themselves as WBAP/NBC, WBAP/ABC WFAA/NBC or WFAA/ABC. Probably, the way Officer E. G. Sabastian would identify a station is from the voice of the announcer. Just as, if you heard the TV in 1963 and heard the voice of Walter Cronkite reporting the news, you can infer that this is CBS news. Officer Sabastian would likely have done the same. If so, the voice he heard was sometimes on WFAA with NBC News (on 820 AM) was also sometimes on WFAA with ABC News (on 570 AM).
Going about his business, he could be stopped at a light and hear the radio from a car besides him, and hear that a Dallas police officer was dead. This could cause him to radio the Dispatcher to confirm this, and say that NBC News was reporting this, when in actual truth the reporter was on the ABC frequency at the time. I think something like this scenario is likely because I doubt Officer E. G. Sabastian was listening to the radio while on duty. It could cause him to miss a message from the Dispatcher.
So, what does our recording of WFAA report? David Von Pein has this recording below:
However, like so many of our other recordings, it starts well after the assassination. Three minutes into the recording, it says: “This report was issued at 1:48, which was just a few moments ago.” So, this recording started at 1:45 PM CST, which is too late to tell us what they were broadcasting between 1:10 PM and 1:40 PM, which is what we need.
It is often reported that all the radio stations reported everything they broadcasted. This is clearly not true. While a fair number were recording hours of broadcasting that day, even before the assassination, this may have been unusual and was only happening that day because of the President’s visit to Dallas. WBAP managed to start recording by 12:50 CST. They were setup to do this, since they were recording the President’s arrival at Love Field just an hour before. WFAA, which was not recording this event, took longer to hook up the recorder. KBOX is another station that comes to mind as starting its recording well after the assassination.
So, was Officer E. G. Sabastian correct that the death of an officer was reported by the media? We have no reason to believe he was not correct. Various local news stations did monitor the police radio frequencies. They could have learned of this shooting very early. Radio stations would broadcast news that had not yet been officially confirmed, like the shooting of a Secret Service man at Dealey Plaza, which was not an official report, or even a true report.
I would be shocked if we ever learned that Officer E. G. Sabastian was mistaken. It’s one thing to confuse two announcements that are an hour apart in time, two weeks later, as Mr. Brewer allegedly did. As I used to think he likely did. But to confuse two reports, one an hour in the past and the other a half hour in the future? No way.
Do people think that Officer E. G. Sabastian was hearing voices?
P. S.
A see that David Von Pein has also pointed out that when the recording of KBOX starts at 1:35 PM, within the first minute it reports that a Dallas detective was DOA at Parkland Hospital. And as David reports, this was two errors, ‘detective’ and ‘Parkland’. But it shows that local Dallas news stations were reporting on the death of a Dallas policeman a good deal earlier than I had been led to believe. And it is possible that this was not the first report on the death of a policeman but was a repeat of an earlier report. We cannot tell because, like other stations, KBOX was not recording its broadcast at the time of the assassination and it took a little while to setup the recording equipment.
But even the 1:36 report is early enough that Mr. Brewer could have heard this just before Oswald walked up to his store.
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...KBOX is the only station for which there is no extant audio for the time period in question.
Not true. There are several other Dallas-area radio stations that Brewer could have been listening to for which there is no extant audio at all (as of this date in August 2020) -- e.g., WRR, KVIL, KIXL, and KSKY (and perhaps some others too).
But maybe CTers can just pretend those stations didn't exist on 11/22/63.
Plus, as Joe Elliott just pointed out by posting my WFAA video above, we have no idea what WFAA-Radio was reporting at the key time in question (1:15 to 1:45 PM CST), because the archived WFAA coverage doesn't even begin until 1:45.
So why on Earth would you, John I., say that KBOX is the only station with gaps in the coverage? Because that's certainly not the case at all.
BTW / FWIW....
Here's the NBC Radio Network coverage on 11/22/63 (the national feed from New York):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ERm-cucsE0VVBnRTZqWktPUnM/view
And here's the ABC Radio Network (national feed):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ERm-cucsE0eHlZc2F2SnJfd3M/view
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So why on Earth would you, John I., say that KBOX is the only station with gaps in the coverage? Because that's certainly not the case---at all.
Why? Because just as James Bond has a license to kill, CTers have a license to lie. Including “I’m not really a CTer”.
I mean, come on, even WBAP, a station which he posted a link to and discussed its broadcast in detail, has an almost one hour gap, from 11:54 to 12:50. Or just talking about the time of the assassination, a 20 minute gap from 12:30 to 12:50. The recording of the first hour after the assassination was very spotty by the local Dallas radio stations. I believe they were all scrambling to get a recording started, while, at the same time, having various people work on reporting the news as soon as possible, which was the higher priority.
While CTers try to give the impression that is a known fact that Mr. Brewer could not have heard a report of a policeman’s shooting before 1:35, this is just not the case. And we have a recording of a police officer talking about such a broadcast at 1:28. As well as a recording of an actual broadcast at 1:35, shortly after the recording starts.
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Nonsense. Brewer didn't "fabricate" anything.
I think Brewer was probably listening to KBOX Radio on 11/22/63. And Dale Myers seems to think so too....
http://jfk-assassination-as-it-happened.blogspot.com/2015/12/kbox-radio.html
"KBOX Radio might have been the station that Johnny Brewer had turned on that day, because within the first minute of the KBOX coverage [linked above] (which equates to about 1:35 PM CST), there's a bulletin which states: "We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital." (If that report was referring to Officer Tippit, then there are two errors in it, because Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital, not Parkland, and Tippit, of course, was not a "detective". But later radio reports did also make the mistake of calling the slain policeman "Detective Tippit". So that KBOX bulletin probably is referring to Officer Tippit's death. And if that's the case, then Johnny Brewer could have heard about the Tippit shooting prior to seeing Oswald come into the lobby area of his shoe store. And it's also possible that KBOX could have provided a bulletin about the policeman's shooting even earlier than 1:35, but I have no way to confirm whether they did or not, because the version of the KBOX material in my collection begins at about 1:35 PM.)
[...]
"I'm certainly willing to accept the possibility that Johnny Brewer might have gotten mixed up concerning the precise time when he first heard the news about a police officer being shot in Oak Cliff. Perhaps he did hear that news a little later in the day. But also keep in mind the 1:35 PM KBOX report about the DOA "detective" (which is a remarkably speedy bulletin, because KBOX not only was reporting on the wounding of a police officer, they were already reporting on the death of that policeman as early as 1:35), which tends to indicate that at least one Dallas-area radio station was reporting the officer's shooting at a time which would be perfectly consistent with Johnny Brewer's account of only seeing Oswald after hearing about the policeman's shooting on the radio.
"The KBOX audio footage I provided does not, however, give the necessary detail about the shooting taking place in Oak Cliff, but, as I mentioned earlier, it's possible that such an "Oak Cliff" detail was mentioned in an earlier KBOX bulletin, which preceded the point in time when my truncated copy of the coverage begins.
"In any event, even if Brewer didn't hear any pre-1:36 PM radio bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting, it's still quite clear to me from the weight of John Brewer's testimony and statements over the years that Brewer was suspicious of Lee Harvey Oswald's behavior and actions shortly after 1:30 PM on 11/22/63 (such as: Oswald turning his back to the street just as the police cars went roaring by).
[...]
"BTW / FYI .... Here is a CBS-TV interview with Johnny Brewer from 1964 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZElxNDFOdnRJWE0/view). In this interview, Brewer says this: "Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff." " -- DVP; April 18, 2019
-----------
From Dale Myers....
"My work on this issue was quite exhaustive and appears as endnote No. 617 (pages 738-739 of the 2013 Edition of “With Malice”). ....
A 1:59 p.m. KBOX report from newsman Sam Pate repeats information known to have been previously broadcast, including a report about the Tippit shooting (“Moments ago a police officer reported to have been shot down at Tenth and Patton in the Oak Cliff area. Several squads of police, approximately twenty men, ordered to the Oak Cliff area. A late word shows that the police officer was dead on arrival at Methodist Hospital.”). This KBOX report on the Tippit shooting was probably broadcast earlier on KBOX shortly after 1:31 p.m. when it was reported over the Dallas police radio that Tippit was DOA at Methodist Hospital." -- Dale K. Myers; E-Mail To DVP On April 19, 2019
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html
You and Dale Myers are the proponent of the KBOX theory.
So, it is convenient that there are no tapes.
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The KBOX recording:
Like many local Dallas radio stations, KBOX took awhile to set up a recording of their broadcast immediately after the assassination.
0:00:46 We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland hospital.
0:03:58 “The President died at 2 o’clock Eastern Standard Time, 1 o’clock Dallas time, some 39 minutes ago.”
The recording starts at 1:35 and by 1:36 we have the report of the death of a Dallas police officer on at least one station, KBOX.
Now, one can say, this report has errors. A detective? DOA at Parkland? Could this be an erroneous report, that had nothing to do with the Officer Tippit shooting? Like the report of a Secret Service agent being killed at Dealey Plaza? It doesn’t matter. Mr. Brewer could have heard that radio report. And learned within the hour more details, that it was officer Tippit, shot in the Oak Cliff area just 20 minutes before Oswald showed up. And report two weeks later that he heard about the policeman being shot just before Oswald showed up.
And we don’t know what was being broadcast by other radio stations at that time. There is a strong clue that WFAA may have reported the shooting of a police officer. Officer E. G. Sabastian reported to dispatch that there was such a media report at 1:28.
Certainly, any reporters listening to the police radio broadcasts should know that the shooting was in the Oak Cliff area, and this may have been reported, possibly by KBOX (before 1:35) or WFAA or other stations. But since so many stations had not started recording their own broadcast before 1:35, there is no way to tell.
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The KBOX recording:
Like many local Dallas radio stations, KBOX took awhile to set up a recording of their broadcast immediately after the assassination.
0:00:46 We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland hospital.
0:03:58 “The President died at 2 o’clock Eastern Standard Time, 1 o’clock Dallas time, some 39 minutes ago.”
The recording starts at 1:35 and by 1:36 we have the report of the death of a Dallas police officer on at least one station, KBOX.
Now, one can say, this report has errors. A detective? DOA at Parkland? Could this be an erroneous report, that had nothing to do with the Officer Tippit shooting? Like the report of a Secret Service agent being killed at Dealey Plaza? It doesn’t matter. Mr. Brewer could have heard that radio report. And learned within the hour more details, that it was officer Tippit, shot in the Oak Cliff area just 20 minutes before Oswald showed up. And report two weeks later that he heard about the policeman being shot just before Oswald showed up.
And we don’t know what was being broadcast by other radio stations at that time. There is a strong clue that WFAA may have reported the shooting of a police officer. Officer E. G. Sabastian reported to dispatch that there was such a media report at 1:28.
Certainly, any reporters listening to the police radio broadcasts should know that the shooting was in the Oak Cliff area, and this may have been reported, possibly by KBOX (before 1:35) or WFAA or other stations. But since so many stations had not started recording their own broadcast before 1:35, there is no way to tell.
The detective at Parland was erroneous. Not, "could this"? There was no dead detective.
Was Parkland close to the Brewer location? No.
Was Tippit taken to Parkland? No.
Are you grasping at straws?
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The detective at Parland was erroneous. Not, "could this"? There was no dead detective.
Was Parkland close to the Brewer location? No.
Was Tippit taken to Parkland? No.
Are you grasping at straws?
Not known to be erroneous. Not 100% correct? Definitely.
It could be a totally erroneous report. Like that of the Secret Service agent killed at Dealey Plaza. Or it could be an early report about the shooting of Officer Tippit, with someone mishearing some of the information they were getting over the police radio, while getting some details right.
At the about that time, around 1:25, the police radio was talking about the need to get blood to Parkland. I would assume for Governor Connally. The mention of Parkland could have confused someone.
In any case, a totally erroneous report, or a valid report with significant errors, this could be the basis of Mr. Brewer remembering hearing about the shooting of a Dallas police officer just before Oswald showed up.
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Are you grasping at straws?
J T ...don't you see by now?---They are the straw ::)
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I'm just telling the tell. Batting clean-up.
Using my artistic-license privileges.
You lot can't even manage a Texas-leaguer, ffs.
Seems you 'knowledge-advancers' are going to need a walk-off homer.
More incoherent and irrelevant babbling.
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More incoherent and irrelevant babbling.
Correct, Mr I.
Oddly, his language reminds me of Mr. Storing.
As the Bard spake: " sound and fury, signifying nothing".
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So, was Officer E. G. Sabastian correct that the death of an officer was reported by the media? We have no reason to believe he was not correct.
He was incorrect. NBC News made no such report. You can hope that he heard it somewhere and you can hope that Brewer heard it somewhere, but that doesn’t make it a fact.
Do people think that Officer E. G. Sabastian was hearing voices?
Do you think that Brewer hallucinated two IBM men?
P. S.
But even the 1:36 report is early enough that Mr. Brewer could have heard this just before Oswald walked up to his store.
That would imply that you know what time it was when Brewer saw the man in front of his store.
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Not true. There are several other Dallas-area radio stations that Brewer could have been listening to for which there is no extant audio at all (as of this date in August 2020) -- e.g., WRR, KVIL, KIXL, and KSKY (and perhaps some others too).
Fair enough. I should have said “major radio stations with live news departments”.
But my point remains the same. There’s no reason to think that Brewer was “probably” listening to KBOX, or that he heard an announcement of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff, prior to the man appearing in front of his shop.
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Do you think that Brewer hallucinated two IBM men?
Mr. BELIN - I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.
JohnM
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WBAP managed to start recording by 12:50 CST. They were setup to do this, since they were recording the President’s arrival at Love Field just an hour before. WFAA, which was not recording this event, took longer to hook up the recorder. KBOX is another station that comes to mind as starting its recording well after the assassination.
Where did you get the idea that KBOX didn’t record any earlier broadcasts? Just because they are not commonly available now?
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Mr. BELIN - I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.
JohnM
Who is the "we"?
Why were they not interviewed, as further proof as to the "suspicious " actions of Oswald?
Who was Johnny Brewer? Education? Military background, service, if any?
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Who was Johnny Brewer? Education? Military background, service, if any?
Mr. BELIN - How old are you, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER - Twenty-two. ~~
Mr. BELIN - You graduated from high school?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Did you go to school after you graduated from high school?
Mr. BREWER - I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BREWER - I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's Shoe Store. I----that was in September, and I got married in December. And I have been with them ever since.
Mr. BELIN - When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store?
Mr. BREWER - In September of 1961.
Now I would still like to know from the detractors...What is there about "moments ago" [reply # 81] that do they not understand?
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So, was Officer E. G. Sabastian correct that the death of an officer was reported by the media? We have no reason to believe he was not correct. Various local news stations did monitor the police radio frequencies. They could have learned of this shooting very early. Radio stations would broadcast news that had not yet been officially confirmed, like the shooting of a Secret Service man at Dealey Plaza, which was not an official report, or even a true report.
He was incorrect. NBC News made no such report. You can hope that he heard it somewhere and you can hope that Brewer heard it somewhere, but that doesn’t make it a fact.
We can’t insist that everything Officer E. G. Sabastian or the KBOX broadcast has to be 100% correct to conclude early media report based on the shooting of Officer Tippit. After all, many early descriptions of the shooting at Dealey Plaza said both the President and the Governor were shot and a Secret Service agent was killed. Well, based on the faulty statement about a Secret Service agent being killed, can we conclude that these reports were a totally erroneous reports, that had nothing to do with the shooting at Dealey Plaza? No way. It would be a huge coincidence that this was a totally erroneous report, and it was just by chance that it included details like the President and the Governor being shot.
Similarly, errors in the initial reports about the Officer Tippit shooting. The report was from NBC News. A detective was shot. The body was taken to Parkland hospital. None of these early errors, which are so common in early news reports, should cause us to conclude that these were just totally erroneous reports that had nothing to do with the shooting of Officer Tippit. And it was just a coincidence that the partly faulty report, of a Dallas police officer, who was a detective, being shot, matched up with the real event of a Dallas police officer, a non-detective, Officer Tippit, being shot.
Officer E. G. Sabastian mistaken statement that “NBC News reports . . .” was an error. But a very easy error to make. Because the local “NBC News” announcers also often broadcast for “ABC News”. So, if WFAA, broadcasting at that time for ABC made such an announcement, it would be an easy error to make. So, there is no reason to conclude that Officer E. G. Sabastian was not relaying to dispatch information he just got over commercial radio.
Do you think that Brewer hallucinated two IBM men?
No. I think he confused different memories from different days. The events of that Friday, and the events of some Saturday, when two employees from IBM, possibility looking at shoes, decided to hang around a bit. It is very easy to scramble memories after 33 years.
Officer E. G. Sabastian is much less likely to be totally mistaken. This was not a 33-year-old memory. This was a recorded real time statement, made just after he heard, or thought he heard, a news flash while patrolling in his squad car.
P. S.
That would imply that you know what time it was when Brewer saw the man in front of his store.
The exact times are not known. Only approximations.
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He was incorrect. NBC News made no such report. You can hope that he heard it somewhere and you can hope that Brewer heard it somewhere, but that doesn’t make it a fact.
We can’t insist that everything Officer E. G. Sabastian or the KBOX broadcast has to be 100% correct to conclude early media report based on the shooting of Officer Tippit. After all, many early descriptions of the shooting at Dealey Plaza said both the President and the Governor were shot and a Secret Service agent was killed. Well, based on the faulty statement about a Secret Service agent being killed, can we conclude that these reports were a totally erroneous reports, that had nothing to do with the shooting at Dealey Plaza? No way. It would be a huge coincidence that this was a totally erroneous report, and it was just by chance that it included details like the President and the Governor being shot.
Similarly, errors in the initial reports about the Officer Tippit shooting. The report was from NBC News. A detective was shot. The body was taken to Parkland hospital. None of these early errors, which are so common in early news reports, should cause us to conclude that these were just totally erroneous reports that had nothing to do with the shooting of Officer Tippit. And it was just a coincidence that the partly faulty report, of a Dallas police officer, who was a detective, being shot, matched up with the real event of a Dallas police officer, a non-detective, Officer Tippit, being shot.
Officer E. G. Sabastian mistaken statement that “NBC News reports . . .” was an error. But a very easy error to make. Because the local “NBC News” announcers also often broadcast for “ABC News”. So, if WFAA, broadcasting at that time for ABC made such an announcement, it would be an easy error to make. So, there is no reason to conclude that Officer E. G. Sabastian was not relaying to dispatch information he just got over commercial radio.
No. I think he confused different memories from different days. The events of that Friday, and the events of some Saturday, when two employees from IBM, possibility looking at shoes, decided to hang around a bit. It is very easy to scramble memories after 33 years.
Officer E. G. Sabastian is much less likely to be totally mistaken. This was not a 33-year-old memory. This was a recorded real time statement, made just after he heard, or thought he heard, a news flash while patrolling in his squad car.
The exact times are not known. Only approximations.
Brewer said "we" in 1964.
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We can’t insist that everything Officer E. G. Sabastian or the KBOX broadcast has to be 100% correct to conclude early media report based on the shooting of Officer Tippit. After all, many early descriptions of the shooting at Dealey Plaza said both the President and the Governor were shot and a Secret Service agent was killed. Well, based on the faulty statement about a Secret Service agent being killed, can we conclude that these reports were a totally erroneous reports, that had nothing to do with the shooting at Dealey Plaza? No way. It would be a huge coincidence that this was a totally erroneous report, and it was just by chance that it included details like the President and the Governor being shot.
Similarly, errors in the initial reports about the Officer Tippit shooting. The report was from NBC News. A detective was shot. The body was taken to Parkland hospital. None of these early errors, which are so common in early news reports, should cause us to conclude that these were just totally erroneous reports that had nothing to do with the shooting of Officer Tippit. And it was just a coincidence that the partly faulty report, of a Dallas police officer, who was a detective, being shot, matched up with the real event of a Dallas police officer, a non-detective, Officer Tippit, being shot.
Officer E. G. Sabastian mistaken statement that “NBC News reports . . .” was an error. But a very easy error to make. Because the local “NBC News” announcers also often broadcast for “ABC News”. So, if WFAA, broadcasting at that time for ABC made such an announcement, it would be an easy error to make. So, there is no reason to conclude that Officer E. G. Sabastian was not relaying to dispatch information he just got over commercial radio.
It seems you either missed or ignored my reply in the "Unsung Heroes" thread, so here are two parts of it again;
If Sabastian had heard a report on the radio he would have known that it was Tippit, or at least a police officer, who was DOA, but he clearly did not know that because he asked the dispatcher "That the officer".
Another point of interest is this. Let's say you're right and Sabastian did hear it on the radio at 1.25 or just before that. According to the official narrative, Tippit was allegedly shot at 1.14/1.15 and picked up by an ambulance at 1.18. The drive to Methodist Hospital from 10th/Patton is about 4 minutes, which puts the arrival of the ambulance at 1.22. There were no reporters with the ambulance, only Davenport's police car which started following the ambulance en route. Back in those days reporters had to call in stories by phone, so for the story to be broadcast at no later than 1.25, there were only three minutes, after the ambulance arrival, available for a reporter to get to Methodist Hospital, talk to a doctor, find a phone and call it in and get the story on the air..... Not very likely... Even less likely would be that a reporter calling in from Methodist Hospital would report to the station that he was at Parkland Hospital.
Now, if Tippit was really shot at around 1.06 or 1.07 it would be a different matter, but I don't think you want to be having that discussion....
In any event, I put it to you that if Tippit was indeed declared DOA at 1.22, there was no physical possibility for a report about his death being broadcast 3 minutes after the event.
Officer E. G. Sabastian is much less likely to be totally mistaken. This was not a 33-year-old memory. This was a recorded real time statement, made just after he heard, or thought he heard, a news flash while patrolling in his squad car.
The exact times are not known. Only approximations.
First of all, you are only speculating that Sabastian heard a news flash in his squad car. There is no evidence for that. And secondly, as I already stated in the "Unsung Heroes" thread;
DPD recordings are likely not correct, as per J.C. Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers;
A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.
In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart.
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So, if Oswald was roaming the streets of Oak Cliff, acting "suspiciously", why didn't anyone but Johnny Brewer notice? And also follow him, call the police, warn their neighbors?
Only Johnny Brewer - and perhaps those with him, though we'll never know, because they were never identified, nor interviewed- spotted this dangerous double murderer.
Every time one looks into the details of this case, one finds a stunning lack of follow through.
That doesn't mean some conspiracy on the part of the DPD and the FBI, just a desire for a quick, easy uncomplicated solution.
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So, if Oswald was roaming the streets of Oak Cliff, acting "suspiciously", why didn't anyone but Johnny Brewer notice? And also follow him, call the police, warn their neighbors?
Only Johnny Brewer - and perhaps those with him, though we'll never know, because they were never identified, nor interviewed- spotted this dangerous double murderer.
Every time one looks into the details of this case, one finds a stunning lack of follow through.
That doesn't mean some conspiracy on the part of the DPD and the FBI, just a desire for a quick, easy uncomplicated solution.
Oswald himself made it a quick, easy uncomplicated solution.
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If Sabastian had heard a report on the radio he would have known that it was Tippit, or at least a police officer, who was DOA, but he clearly did not know that because he asked the dispatcher "That the officer".
I think he only knew that some officer was shot, as he could tell over the police radio. Maybe even which officer, if he happened to know that Officer Tippit was driving Unit 10. But likely he didn’t know what car each officer was driving. Only the Dispatcher would know that. Officer Sabastian was just looking for conformation of the report he heard over commercial radio, that the officer in question had actually died.
Another point of interest is this. Let's say you're right and Sabastian did hear it on the radio at 1.25 or just before that. According to the official narrative, Tippit was allegedly shot at 1.14/1.15 and picked up by an ambulance at 1.18. The drive to Methodist Hospital from 10th/Patton is about 4 minutes, which puts the arrival of the ambulance at 1.22. There were no reporters with the ambulance, only Davenport's police car which started following the ambulance en route. Back in those days reporters had to call in stories by phone, so for the story to be broadcast at no later than 1.25, there were only three minutes, after the ambulance arrival, available for a reporter to get to Methodist Hospital, talk to a doctor, find a phone and call it in and get the story on the air..... Not very likely... Even less likely would be that a reporter calling in from Methodist Hospital would report to the station that he was at Parkland Hospital.
The DOA report, although accurate, may very well have been a false detail. False details in early reports are very common. Like the early reports that the President and the Governor were shot and a Secret Service agent killed, all in Dealey Plaza. The DOA report was likely a false detail, accept, by chance, it turned out to be true.
First of all, you are only speculating that Sabastian heard a news flash in his squad car. There is no evidence for that. And secondly, as I already stated in the "Unsung Heroes" thread;
This is false. There is evidence of that. The evidence is that Sabastian said he heard from “NBC News” that an officer was DOA. And this message was recorded on the Dictabelt. He could only get his voice recorded if he was broadcasting from his patrol car.
This could not be based on a conversation with a news reporter. Officer Sabastian was in his patrol car several miles north of Dealey Plaza. As he reported his location just 2 to 3 minutes before.
Also, this was not a 33-year-old memory, a 4-month-old memory, not even a 2-week-old memory, but a statement he made immediately. And his statement is recorded on the Dictabelt.
DPD recordings are likely not correct, as per J.C. Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers;
The relative times are correct. Officer Sabastian reported that the media was reporting the death of an officer 11 to 12 minutes after Police Dispatch first heard of the shooting of Officer Tippit. Far sooner than I have been led to believe that such a news report could have been made. But of course, since the media was monitoring the police radio frequencies, they could have heard about it as soon as the Police Dispatcher and easily report on this within 11 to 12 minutes.
So, in conclusion, one can nitpick at this message.
Sabastian: NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher: That's correct.
Sabastian: That the officer?
Dispatcher: Yes.
• It could not have been from “NBC News”. But the reporters for WFAA sometimes broadcast for “NBC News”, and sometimes for “ABC News”. So, this is an easy error that could have occurred. And we have no recording for WFAA so soon after the assassination. We could say it is speculation that WFAA made such a broadcast but it is equally speculative to say that WFAA did not. Except the hypothesis that WFAA, or some other radio station, did make this broadcast is supported by Officer Sabastian’s recorded statement.
• Officer Tippit was DOA, but the media could not have known that so soon. But faulty details in early stories are common, like a Secret Service agent was killed in Dealey Plaza. Just because of this faulty detail, no one doubts that the early reports were about the shooting of the President and Governor at Dealey Plaza. So, no one should doubt that these early reports were about the police officer being shot.
• We don’t know if the media did report Officer Tippit was DOA. But we know, for a fact, that the media never reported the President or the Governor were DOA. They kept stressing that both were in surgery and that there was still hope. A DOA report, even a faulty one, could only have been for Officer Tippit. And if the media ‘DOA report’ was for the President, or the Governor, or even the Secret Service Agent, Officer Sabastian would not have asked “That the officer?”.
Is this absolute proof that the media reported over radio the death of a police officer? No. But it’s pretty convincing evidence.
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So, if Oswald was roaming the streets of Oak Cliff, acting "suspiciously", why didn't anyone but Johnny Brewer notice? And also follow him, call the police, warn their neighbors?
Only Johnny Brewer - and perhaps those with him, though we'll never know, because they were never identified, nor interviewed- spotted this dangerous double murderer.
Every time one looks into the details of this case, one finds a stunning lack of follow through.
That doesn't mean some conspiracy on the part of the DPD and the FBI, just a desire for a quick, easy uncomplicated solution.
Because I don’t think a police car with the siren on was approaching Oswald ever 5 minutes. If that did happen, and each time Oswald ducked briefly into a store entrance, we might have had other reports like that of Mr. Brewer and Julia Postal.
The earliest statement, from two weeks later, did not mention “we.” Only the statements taken down 4 months later. And the questioner probably didn’t even notice the “we” while going through his list of questions.
And, they already had 2 witnesses, Johnny Brewer and Julia Postal, who saw Oswald disappear from view at the approach of a police car with a siren on. Do we really need one or two more? About a subject who ten minutes later not only ducked into a shoe store entrance, ducked into a theater without paying, but also pulled a gun and struck Officer McDonald when he asked Oswald to stand up?
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Also, this was not a 33-year-old memory, a 4-month-old memory, not even a 2-week-old memory, but a statement he made immediately. And his statement is recorded on the Dictabelt.
That doesn’t make it true. There’s nothing that corroborates it.
It could not have been from “NBC News”. But the reporters for WFAA sometimes broadcast for “NBC News”, and sometimes for “ABC News”.
WBAP and WFAA were different radio stations. They shared broadcast frequencies, but why do you assume they shared announcers?
So, this is an easy error that could have occurred. And we have no recording for WFAA so soon after the assassination.
There are “WFAA News” reports on the so-called “WBAP” broadcast tape during the relevant time.
• We don’t know if the media did report Officer Tippit was DOA. But we know, for a fact, that the media never reported the President or the Governor were DOA.
That’s quite a double-standard. You can’t rule out all those minor stations we don’t have recordings for, right?
They kept stressing that both were in surgery and that there was still hope. A DOA report, even a faulty one, could only have been for Officer Tippit.
A faulty report could have said anything.
And if the media ‘DOA report’ was for the President, or the Governor, or even the Secret Service Agent, Officer Sabastian would not have asked “That the officer?”.
I could just as easily say that if another organization announced the Tippit shooting, Sebastian would not have said “NBC News”. You don’t get to decide what a mistaken cop can be mistaken about.
Is this absolute proof that the media reported over radio the death of a police officer? No. But it’s pretty convincing evidence.
To you, maybe.
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And, they already had 2 witnesses, Johnny Brewer and Julia Postal, who saw Oswald disappear from view at the approach of a police car with a siren on.
Postal did not see such a thing.
Do we really need one or two more? About a subject who ten minutes later not only ducked into a shoe store entrance, ducked into a theater without paying, but also pulled a gun and struck Officer McDonald when he asked Oswald to stand up?
Is that a hypothetical question? Oswald did not “pull a gun”.
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Oswald, who had phenomenal respect for authority, especially poor dumb cops, promptly stood to attention as the poor dumb cops approached. In his bumbling attempt to salute, he inadvertently popped a poor dumb cop in the chops, knocking him backwards. Then, as a patsy, he tried to turn in his poor dumb cop-killer S&W. While playing handsies with poor dumb cops, he almost shot more poor dumb cops.
Noticing that the movie had stopped, he remarked 'That's it. It's all over now'. Then, while resisting arrest, he protested that he wasn't resisting arrest.
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I think he only knew that some officer was shot, as he could tell over the police radio. Maybe even which officer, if he happened to know that Officer Tippit was driving Unit 10. But likely he didn’t know what car each officer was driving. Only the Dispatcher would know that. Officer Sabastian was just looking for conformation of the report he heard over commercial radio, that the officer in question had actually died.
The only problem is that there is no evidence whatsoever for such a report on commercial radio around 1.25pm and the timeline (if the official narrative is correct) makes it physically impossible for such a broadcast to be made within 3 minutes after Tippit being declared DOA at 1.22.
The DOA report, although accurate, may very well have been a false detail. False details in early reports are very common. Like the early reports that the President and the Governor were shot and a Secret Service agent killed, all in Dealey Plaza. The DOA report was likely a false detail, accept, by chance, it turned out to be true.
What "DOA report" may have been false yet accurate? I'm not even sure where you are getting this from, as there wasn't a DOA report. In fact there is no record of any verbal report and the first document that mentions Tippit's DOA is a permission for an autopsy which gives the time of DOA at 1.15 pm.
But you missed and/or ignored the point I made completely.
Another point of interest is this. Let's say you're right and Sabastian did hear it on the radio at 1.25 or just before that. According to the official narrative, Tippit was allegedly shot at 1.14/1.15 and picked up by an ambulance at 1.18. The drive to Methodist Hospital from 10th/Patton is about 4 minutes, which puts the arrival of the ambulance at 1.22. There were no reporters with the ambulance, only Davenport's police car which started following the ambulance en route. Back in those days reporters had to call in stories by phone, so for the story to be broadcast at no later than 1.25, there were only three minutes, after the ambulance arrival, available for a reporter to get to Methodist Hospital, talk to a doctor, find a phone and call it in and get the story on the air..... Not very likely... Even less likely would be that a reporter calling in from Methodist Hospital would report to the station that he was at Parkland Hospital.
Now, if Tippit was really shot at around 1.06 or 1.07 it would be a different matter, but I don't think you want to be having that discussion....
In any event, I put it to you that if Tippit was indeed declared DOA at 1.22, there was no physical possibility for a report about his death being broadcast 3 minutes after the event.
So, I repeat, if the official narrative is correct, Tippit was declared at Methodist Hospital at 1.22 pm. There is no physical way that his DOA could be reported on the air by a commercial station at 1.25 pm, when the DPD dispatcher, who was in direct radio contact with the officers at Methodist Hospital, didn't even confirm the DOA until 1.28 pm.
This is false. There is evidence of that. The evidence is that Sabastian said he heard from “NBC News” that an officer was DOA. And this message was recorded on the Dictabelt. He could only get his voice recorded if he was broadcasting from his patrol car.
This could not be based on a conversation with a news reporter. Officer Sabastian was in his patrol car several miles north of Dealey Plaza. As he reported his location just 2 to 3 minutes before.
Also, this was not a 33-year-old memory, a 4-month-old memory, not even a 2-week-old memory, but a statement he made immediately. And his statement is recorded on the Dictabelt.
No that's not false. Sabastian did not say he heard from NBC News, he said "NBC News is reporting DOA". There also is no evidence that he heard that news in his car, just like there is no proof that there actually was a radio transmission. You just assume he did and it's a circular argument.
You say Sabastian said he heard a broadcast (which he didn't really say), so there must have been one, and there must have been a broadcast because otherwise Sabastian could not have heard it.
As for his voice being on the dictabelt, yes he could only broadcast from his patrol car, but that doesn't mean he was in it when he heard about the DOA of an officer. In fact, he could have been one of the officers at the carpark where the jacket was found.
And who said anything about a conversation with a reporter? He simply could have overheard it. Victoria Adams wasn't talking to a police officer when she heard a message on DPD radio from a motorbike parked in front of the TSBD. As for his location, just before he asked about the DOA, Sabastian told the dispatcher he was almost at 400 East Jefferson. So, he was not several miles north of Dealey Plaza, as you incorrectly claimed.
The relative times are correct. Officer Sabastian reported that the media was reporting the death of an officer 11 to 12 minutes after Police Dispatch first heard of the shooting of Officer Tippit. Far sooner than I have been led to believe that such a news report could have been made. But of course, since the media was monitoring the police radio frequencies, they could have heard about it as soon as the Police Dispatcher and easily report on this within 11 to 12 minutes.
The relative times are correct.
So, now you know better than J.C. Bowes, the man who was actually in charge of the DPD dispatchers and who testified to the HSCA that the times could not be relied on? WOW!
Officer Sabastian reported that the media was reporting the death of an officer 11 to 12 minutes after Police Dispatch first heard of the shooting of Officer Tippit.
Really, and where did he say that? Or, for that matter, how did he know that? According to the DPD transcripts, the first General Broadcast of an officer being shot at 10th street was at 1.18 pm.... 11 to 12 later would be 1.29 to 1.30 for the alleged media broadcast.... 4 to 5 minutes after Sabastian allegedly heard a NBC broadcast. It doesn't add up.
But of course, since the media was monitoring the police radio frequencies, they could have heard about it as soon as the Police Dispatcher and easily report on this within 11 to 12 minutes.
Reporters have always monitored police radio frequencies for the purpose of finding out where the next story possibly is. As police radio traffic isn't always correct or complete, no responsible reporter would use those broadcasts as the main source for a report on the radio.
So, in conclusion, one can nitpick at this message.
Sabastian: NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher: That's correct.
Sabastian: That the officer?
Dispatcher: Yes.
• It could not have been from “NBC News”. But the reporters for WFAA sometimes broadcast for “NBC News”, and sometimes for “ABC News”. So, this is an easy error that could have occurred. And we have no recording for WFAA so soon after the assassination. We could say it is speculation that WFAA made such a broadcast but it is equally speculative to say that WFAA did not. Except the hypothesis that WFAA, or some other radio station, did make this broadcast is supported by Officer Sabastian’s recorded statement.
• Officer Tippit was DOA, but the media could not have known that so soon. But faulty details in early stories are common, like a Secret Service agent was killed in Dealey Plaza. Just because of this faulty detail, no one doubts that the early reports were about the shooting of the President and Governor at Dealey Plaza. So, no one should doubt that these early reports were about the police officer being shot.
• We don’t know if the media did report Officer Tippit was DOA. But we know, for a fact, that the media never reported the President or the Governor were DOA. They kept stressing that both were in surgery and that there was still hope. A DOA report, even a faulty one, could only have been for Officer Tippit. And if the media ‘DOA report’ was for the President, or the Governor, or even the Secret Service Agent, Officer Sabastian would not have asked “That the officer?”.
Is this absolute proof that the media reported over radio the death of a police officer? No. But it’s pretty convincing evidence.
You keep repeating yourself.... Are you even taking notice of what others say?
Except the hypothesis that WFAA, or some other radio station, did make this broadcast is supported by Officer Sabastian’s recorded statement.
No it doesn't. Sabastian's message on DPD radio only shows that he (over)heard something about a DOA. He gets the station wrong and doesn't even know if it was "the officer" or "the President".
75 (Ptm. E.G. Sabastian) 75.
Dispatcher 75.
75 NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher That's correct.
75 (?) That the officer?
Dispatcher Yes.
87 (?) (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) 87.
75 . . . on the President?
Dispatcher No, that's not correct, 19.
What officer was it?
Dispatcher J.D. Tippit.
The available evidence clearly shows there couldn't have been a radio broadcast about Tippit's death within 3 minutes after him being declared DOA.
Officer Tippit was DOA, but the media could not have known that so soon. But faulty details in early stories are common
There was no faulty detail here. According to the official narrative (which I do not believe) Tippit was declared DOA at around 1.22 pm. In those days reporters had to phone in stories. There wasn't even a reporter present at Methodist Hospital and no broadcast about Tippit's death was made on DPD radio until 1.28 pm. There simply is no way that there could have been a radio broadcast within 3 minutes after the officer's death.
We don’t know if the media did report Officer Tippit was DOA. But we know, for a fact, that the media never reported the President or the Governor were DOA.
What kind of warped "logic" is this? Neither Kennedy or Connally were Dead on Arrival, so of course the media did not report that they were!
A DOA report, even a faulty one, could only have been for Officer Tippit.
And what DOA report would that be?
Officer Sabastian would not have asked “That the officer?”.
And if he thought it was Tippit, he wouldn't have asked ". . . on the President?"
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Oswald, who had phenomenal respect for authority, especially poor dumb cops, promptly stood to attention as the poor dumb cops approached. In his bumbling attempt to salute, he inadvertently popped a poor dumb cop in the chops, knocking him backwards. Then, as a patsy, he tried to turn in his poor dumb cop-killer S&W. While playing handsies with poor dumb cops, he almost shot more poor dumb cops.
Noticing that the movie had stopped, he remarked 'That's it. It's all over now'. Then, while resisting arrest, he protested that he wasn't resisting arrest.
Cool story, bro. Thanks for your imaginative contribution.
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So now that we're all in agreement that Sebastian was mistaken, is there any evidence at all that Brewer heard a radio report of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff prior to Oswald's arrest?
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WBAP and WFAA were different radio stations. They shared broadcast frequencies, but why do you assume they shared announcers?
WBAP and WFAA did not share the same announcers. They have a totally different set of announcers. But on both stations, an announcer working for that station may, from time to time, say that this is “NBC News” and at other times “ABC News”. So, it would be easy for someone, like Officer Sabastian, to recognize a voice over the radio and associate it with “NBC News”.
There are “WFAA News” reports on the so-called “WBAP” broadcast tape during the relevant time.
Where on the recording is the WBAP 820 AM broadcasting news from WFAA, during 1:15 through 1:40 CST? Did WBAP broadcast all the reports that WFAA was broadcasting?
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The only problem is that there is no evidence whatsoever for such a report on commercial radio around 1.25pm and the timeline (if the official narrative is correct) makes it physically impossible for such a broadcast to be made within 3 minutes after Tippit being declared DOA at 1.22.
There is evidence. Officer Sabastian’s recorded comments on the Dictabelt. What you mean to say, is to make the claim, that it was impossible for him to hear such a broadcast.
But this is wrong. It is as simple as a radio station monitoring the police frequencies, which we know they did, to learn as soon as the dispatcher did, that a Dallas officer was shot.
What "DOA report" may have been false yet accurate? I'm not even sure where you are getting this from, as there wasn't a DOA report. In fact there is no record of any verbal report and the first document that mentions Tippit's DOA is a permission for an autopsy which gives the time of DOA at 1.15 pm.
What I am saying is that someone may have said a Dallas police officer was dead. When this message was relayed, it could have been garbled to “Officer killed” to “Officer DOA”.
Messages get garbled all the time. It seems to have happened at Dealey Plaza. Possibility someone related that they saw a Secret Service officer bravely rush toward the limousine, even though he may have gotten killed. This could get garbled to a report that a Secret Service agent was killed in Dealey Plaza. The inaccuracy of these early reports should not cause one to reject an entire report, that the report of the President, the Governor and the killing of a Secret Service agent, had nothing to do with the shooting at Dealey Plaza, because it included a statement about the death of a Secret Service agent.
So, I repeat, if the official narrative is correct, Tippit was declared at Methodist Hospital at 1.22 pm. There is no physical way that his DOA could be reported on the air by a commercial station at 1.25 pm, when the DPD dispatcher, who was in direct radio contact with the officers at Methodist Hospital, didn't even confirm the DOA until 1.28 pm.
As I said, this could just be a garbled report. Like the report of a Secret Service agent being killed.
And it’s possible, it was an accurate report. No way for the radio stations to know that Officer Tippit was DOA? No reporter could have been at large, looking for a story, and see and follow an ambulance, on the off chance this may lead to a scoop? No chance a radio station wouldn’t start monitoring the radio frequencies of the ambulances to see if they can get an update on the condition of the officer?
No that's not false. Sabastian did not say he heard from NBC News, he said "NBC News is reporting DOA". There also is no evidence that he heard that news in his car, just like there is no proof that there actually was a radio transmission. You just assume he did and it's a circular argument.
He was broadcasting from his car. So, he likely heard it from his car. But it doesn’t matter if he heard a radio from his car, or heard a radio while he briefly parked and got out of his car. He could, and likely did, overhear a somebody else’s radio. That is the most likely way he would overhear a message he thought was from “NBC News”, because I doubt he would have been listening to his own radio while on duty.
As for his voice being on the dictabelt, yes he could only broadcast from his patrol car, but that doesn't mean he was in it when he heard about the DOA of an officer. In fact, he could have been one of the officers at the carpark where the jacket was found.
No. at 1:25 2 to 3 minutes before his “Officer DOA” message, he reported he was at Forest and Central, several miles from Dealey Plaza and the Oak Cliff area.
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There is evidence. Officer Sabastian’s recorded comments on the Dictabelt. What you mean to say, is to make the claim, that it was impossible for him to hear such a broadcast.
But this is wrong. It is as simple as a radio station monitoring the police frequencies, which we know they did, to learn as soon as the dispatcher did, that a Dallas officer was shot.
We seem to be going around in circles. You seem to be desperate to cling to the notion that Sabastian heard the DOA on the radio and there simply isn't any evidence for that. "NBC news is reporting..." does not automatically mean he is refering to a radio broadcast.
And an officer being shot is not the same as an officer being DOA. The first confirmation of the DOA was put out by the dispatcher on channel 2 at 1.28, which is 3 minutes after Sabastian asked the dispatcher about the DOA. Sabastian's question, btw, was the first mention of DOA on channel one, so that couldn't have been the source for a radio report either.
What I am saying is that someone may have said a Dallas police officer was dead. When this message was relayed, it could have been garbled to “Officer killed” to “Officer DOA”.
More speculation. Someone? Who is someone? It wasn't anybody on the police radio because those messages came after the alleged radio broadcast that Sabastian is supposed to have heard. So, even if somebody at Methodist Hospital said a police officer was dead, how was it relayed, when there wasn't even a reporter there to do the relaying?
And considering that Tippit, according to the official narrative, was declared DOA at around 1.22 there were only 3 minutes left for a broadcast to take place so that Sabastian could hear it. Highly unlikely!
Messages get garbled all the time. It seems to have happened at Dealey Plaza. Possibility someone related that they saw a Secret Service officer bravely rush toward the limousine, even though he may have gotten killed. This could get garbled to a report that a Secret Service agent was killed in Dealey Plaza. The inaccuracy of these early reports should not cause one to reject an entire report, that the report of the President, the Governor and the killing of a Secret Service agent, had nothing to do with the shooting at Dealey Plaza, because it included a statement about the death of a Secret Service agent.
As I said, this could just be a garbled report. Like the report of a Secret Service agent being killed.
None of this has anything to do with Tippit being shot....
And it’s possible, it was an accurate report. No way for the radio stations to know that Officer Tippit was DOA? No reporter could have been at large, looking for a story, and see and follow an ambulance, on the off chance this may lead to a scoop? No chance a radio station wouldn’t start monitoring the radio frequencies of the ambulances to see if they can get an update on the condition of the officer?
No way for the radio stations to know that Officer Tippit was DOA?
Between 1.22 and 1.25? No... how could they know?
No reporter could have been at large, looking for a story, and see and follow an ambulance, on the off chance this may lead to a scoop?
Could have? Sure... but with the President and the Governor having been shot, those reporters had something else on their mind, don't you think? What reporter, who knows Kennedy and Connally were shot at Dealey Plaza and that they are now at Parkland Hospital would come up with the bright idea to take a drive in a residential area like Oak Cliff to search for a story? The answer is none!
Besides, there wasn't a scoop. No reporter ever filed a report of having been at Methodist Hospital when Tippit was declared DOA.... So much for your "could have"!
He was broadcasting from his car. So, he likely heard it from his car. But it doesn’t matter if he heard a radio from his car, or heard a radio while he briefly parked and got out of his car. He could, and likely did, overhear a somebody else’s radio. That is the most likely way he would overhear a message he thought was from “NBC News”, because I doubt he would have been listening to his own radio while on duty.
That's an awful lot of "likely" with nothing to support it? Just prior his dispatcher had directed him to 400 East Jefferson, where the pursuit of the killer was going on. Do you really think Sabastian figured it would be a good idea to have a commercial radio station playing in the car or could it be he needed to focus on what was coming over the DPD radio?
He could, and likely did, overhear a somebody else’s radio.
I have noticed this before about you. Once you get something in your head, like this "Sabastian heard it on the radio" thing, there is nothing anybody can say to you to make you even think about alternatives. You just keep on twisting and turning to hold on to a notion which at best is nothing more than speculation on your part.
No. at 1:25 2 to 3 minutes before his “Officer DOA” message, he reported he was at Forest and Central, several miles from Dealey Plaza and the Oak Cliff area.
Yeah right.... that was (according to the transcripts) at 1.25 and then, two minutes later, came this;
Dispatcher 602.
211 & 224 (Ptm. R. Hawkins and Ptm. L.D. Wilson) 211 (probably 111) and 224, working Oak Cliff.
Dispatcher 10-4.
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker) Did someone find a jacket?
Dispatcher No (?), 85.
79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin) 79 clear, downtown.
Dispatcher Clear.
19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens) 19.
Dispatcher 19.
19 One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he's in this block, the 400 block of East Jefferson behind this service station. Would you give me some more squads over here?
79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin) 79 en route.
. . . 19/90/car 2.
412 (CID) 412 en route.
. . . 400 East Jefferson.
Dispatcher 10-4, 412.
75 (Ptm. E.G. Sabastian) Go ahead.
Dispatcher 400 East Jefferson.
75 We're almost there.
Dispatcher 19, where did the officer go?
550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2.
19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens) I saw some squads going towards Methodist real fast. Imagine that's where he is.
75 (Ptm. E.G. Sabastian) 75.
Dispatcher 400 East Jefferson. Report in that vicinity.
75 Code 2.
What part of "we're almost there" did you not understand? And come to think of it... who is the "we" in "we're"?
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So now that we're all in agreement that Sebastian was mistaken, is there any evidence at all that Brewer heard a radio report of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff prior to Oswald's arrest?
No.
Brewer's story makes no sense. He heard nothing on the radio.
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I said earlier that you would continue to twist and turn the facts as much as possible to keep your own theory (which you always consider to be correct) alive. And you have just proven me to be rightae know Officer Sabastian mentioned the officer" when in fact he did not mention the officer and we know no such thing. All we have is your claim that he asked "That the officer" when in fact the transcript has a questionmark behind his callsign 75.
As I mentioned before, the person who made this transcript did a poor, and/or a rushed job. Yes, there is a question mark with the “75”, as follows:
75 75.
Dispatcher 75.
75 NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher That’s correct.
75 (?) That the officer?
Dispatcher Yes.
But immediately below that we have on the transcript:
87 (?) (Ptm. R. C. Nelson) 87.
Really, there is a question about the “87” statement being used by Officer Nelson? Who else would be identifying themselves as Officer Nelson over the radio?
The transcript leaves out questions marks when there are serious reasons why the identity of the caller seems to be in error. And puts in questions marks when there should be no doubt as to who is calling in.
You are just trying to win your argument by exhausting the people you talk to, by constantly throwing out new "possibillities", no matter how unlikely, instead of looking honestly at the available information.
The facts are simple. There was no radio broadcast about Tippit being DOA at 1.25. No such recording has ever surfaced, no reporter has ever come forward to take credit for it. It doesn't matter if something was garbled or not, because it never made it on air.
But many stations had not start recording their broadcasts until after 1:25. KBOX, for instance, did not start recording until 1:35, and within the first minute, by 1:36, reported
“We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland hospital.”
Yes. It has the usual inaccuracies of early initial reports. A detective, not an ordinary police officer was killed. DOA at Parkland when he was taken to Methodist Hospital. And probably too early for them to know whether he was DOA or not. Just like the other early errors, just such as the President being reported DOA or a Secret Service agent killed.
And for all we know, there were earlier reports. If the recording had started at 1:30 CST, we might have a 1:31 CST announcement about the death of a detective.
The claim that a broadcast about Tippit could have taken place based on "nothing more than the police radio broadcasts which the media monitored" fails simply because there were no such police radio broadcasts prior to Sabastian asking the dispatcher about the DOA reported by NBC News.
No. Before 1:27 there were reports on the death of a police officer being broadcasted over the police radio.
1:16 CST
Citizen There’s been a shooting out here.
. . .
Citizen Between Marsalis and Beckley. It’s a police officer. Somebody shot him. What – what’s . . . 404 Tenth Street
. . .
Dispatcher Attention. Signal 19 (unconscious person), police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
1:19 CST
Citizen Pardon, from out hear on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he’s dead.
Dispatcher 10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio. Remain off the radio now.
By 1:19 CST, a radio station could broadcast the news about the death of a police officer, with at least as much reliable information as they thought they had when they were reporting the death of a Secret Service agent.
Your unwillingness to accept the reality that's staring you in the face makes it superfluous for anybody to confront you with the actual facts.
You should talk. “. . . no such police radio broadcasts prior to Sabastian asking the dispatcher about the DOA reported by NBC News”. Right.
If you desperately want to believe that Johnny Brewer heard a report on the radio about an officer being shot before he started following the man to the Texas Theater, then have at it.... believe it as much as you like, but don't pretend there is any evidence for it because there clearly isn't and your Sabastian quote "NBC News is reporting DOA" doesn't alter that one bit.
No. I am not desperate. You’re the one that is desperate. If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast, which we can’t because we have the KBOX broadcast at 1:36. But as I was saying, if it was ever proven that the was no such broadcast. That officer Sabastian, or some unknown officer thought he heard such a broadcast about the death of a police officer, but was mistaken, it wouldn’t matter one bit. Mr. Brewer would just be one more witness who got his facts jumbled up:
Officer DOA at Parkland.
President Kennedy was DOA.
A Secret Service agent was killed at Dealey Plaza.
It was a Dallas detective that was killed.
Just a small subset of the false statements made by people. We have no reason to suppose that any of these false reports were lies. And we would have no reason that a false statement, made two weeks later by Mr. Brewer was a lie, when it would be so easy to jumble up in his memory when he heard what. We don’t even have any reason to think that this statement was false, let alone a lie.
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As I mentioned before, the person who made this transcript did a poor, and/or a rushed job. Yes, there is a question mark with the “75”, as follows:
75 75.
Dispatcher 75.
75 NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher That’s correct.
75 (?) That the officer?
Dispatcher Yes.
But immediately below that we have on the transcript:
87 (?) (Ptm. R. C. Nelson) 87.
Really, there is a question about the “87” statement being used by Officer Nelson? Who else would be identifying themselves as Officer Nelson over the radio?
The transcript leaves out questions marks when there are serious reasons why the identity of the caller seems to be in error. And puts in questions marks when there should be no doubt as to who is calling in.
But many stations had not start recording their broadcasts until after 1:25. KBOX, for instance, did not start recording until 1:35, and within the first minute, by 1:36, reported
“We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland hospital.”
Yes. It has the usual inaccuracies of early initial reports. A detective, not an ordinary police officer was killed. DOA at Parkland when he was taken to Methodist Hospital. And probably too early for them to know whether he was DOA or not. Just like the other early errors, just such as the President being reported DOA or a Secret Service agent killed.
And for all we know, there were earlier reports. If the recording had started at 1:30 CST, we might have a 1:31 CST announcement about the death of a detective.
No. Before 1:27 there were reports on the death of a police officer being broadcasted over the police radio.
1:16 CST
Citizen There’s been a shooting out here.
. . .
Citizen Between Marsalis and Beckley. It’s a police officer. Somebody shot him. What – what’s . . . 404 Tenth Street
. . .
Dispatcher Attention. Signal 19 (unconscious person), police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
1:19 CST
Citizen Pardon, from out hear on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he’s dead.
Dispatcher 10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio. Remain off the radio now.
By 1:19 CST, a radio station could broadcast the news about the death of a police officer, with at least as much reliable information as they thought they had when they were reporting the death of a Secret Service agent.
You should talk. “. . . no such police radio broadcasts prior to Sabastian asking the dispatcher about the DOA reported by NBC News”. Right.
No. I am not desperate. You’re the one that is desperate. If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast, which we can’t because we have the KBOX broadcast at 1:36. But as I was saying, if it was ever proven that the was no such broadcast. That officer Sabastian, or some unknown officer thought he heard such a broadcast about the death of a police officer, but was mistaken, it wouldn’t matter one bit. Mr. Brewer would just be one more witness who got his facts jumbled up:
Officer DOA at Parkland.
President Kennedy was DOA.
A Secret Service agent was killed at Dealey Plaza.
It was a Dallas detective that was killed.
Just a small subset of the false statements made by people. We have no reason to suppose that any of these false reports were lies. And we would have no reason that a false statement, made two weeks later by Mr. Brewer was a lie, when it would be so easy to jumble up in his memory when he heard what. We don’t even have any reason to think that this statement was false, let alone a lie.
So, now you are jumping back to this thread again? Why? Did you exhaust all your options on the other thread and now want to give it another go here?
Why did you take quotes from my reply in the other thread and post them here, without saying so? Did you hope to confuse the readers who obviously will not find my actual reply in this thread?
And even more importantly, why did you edit part of one of the quotes?
Well, whatever the answer, I'm not playing your game anymore. You can repeat stuff that has already been debunked as much as you like. Have fun with it.
If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast
This is just about the dumbest thing to say, yet it is so typical for you. A negative can not be proven nor does it need to be. If you claim there was a radio broadcast than you need to prove it..... but you can't. That's been your problem all along and that's why you keep on twisting and turning without even noticing that you are not fooling anybody.
The most likely scenario of what happened is that Brewer heard the report on the radio that Kennedy was dead and that morphed later into that he heard a report on the radio about Tippit being DOA.
Have fun twisting and turning some more .....
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But many stations had not start recording their broadcasts until after 1:25. KBOX, for instance, did not start recording until 1:35, and within the first minute, by 1:36, reported
Why do you keep making this assertion? KBOX was recording during the motorcade. The tapes went "missing".
By 1:19 CST, a radio station could broadcast the news about the death of a police officer,
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
But as I was saying, if it was ever proven that the was no such broadcast. That officer Sabastian, or some unknown officer thought he heard such a broadcast about the death of a police officer, but was mistaken, it wouldn’t matter one bit. Mr. Brewer would just be one more witness who got his facts jumbled up:
Thumb1:
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So, now you are jumping back to this thread again? Why? Did you exhaust all your options on the other thread and now want to give it another go here?
Why did you take quotes from my reply in the other thread and post them here, without saying so? Did you hope to confuse the readers who obviously will not find my actual reply in this thread?
And even more importantly, why did you edit part of one of the quotes?
Well, whatever the answer, I'm not playing your game anymore. You can repeat stuff that has already been debunked as much as you like. Have fun with it.
If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast
This is just about the dumbest thing to say, yet it is so typical for you. A negative can not be proven nor does it need to be. If you claim there was a radio broadcast than you need to prove it..... but you can't. That's been your problem all along and that's why you keep on twisting and turning without even noticing that you are not fooling anybody.
The most likely scenario of what happened is that Brewer heard the report on the radio that Kennedy was dead and that morphed later into that he heard a report on the radio about Tippit being DOA.
Have fun twisting and turning some more .....
Mr Elliott wants someone to " prove a negative"?
Back to Logic 101 class for you sir.
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Why do you keep making this assertion? KBOX was recording during the motorcade. The tapes went "missing".
Or was never recorded. Yes, during important events, like the motorcade, they made recordings. And stopped recording when they thought the main public event was over. WFAA did exactly the same.
Any why would these tapes go missing? Were KBOX and WFAA transmitting coded messages to the shooters?
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Thumb1:
It is speculation for me to say that Mr. Brewer could have heard an early (with errors) broadcast about the death of a police officer. Like from listening to KBOX at 1:36. But it is not speculation to state that it was impossible for Mr. Brewer to have heard such a broadcast.
Why?
Why aren’t both claims considered “speculation”? And Martin’s claim an unreasonable speculation because we do have a recording of such a broadcast at 1:36, which could form the basis of Mr. Brewer’s memory of events two weeks later.
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The most likely scenario of what happened is that Brewer heard the report on the radio that Kennedy was dead and that morphed later into that he heard a report on the radio about Tippit being DOA.
Have fun twisting and turning some more .....
Why is that the most likely scenario? Why couldn't Mr. Brewer hear the KBOX broadcast at 1:36 about the death of a Dallas police officer, and that form the basis of him memory, two weeks later, that he heard about the killing of a Dallas police officer before Oswald showed up?
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Or was never recorded. Yes, during important events, like the motorcade, they made recordings. And stopped recording when they thought the main public event was over. WFAA did exactly the same.
You're leaping to the conclusion that they weren't recording just because you can't find the recordings on Youtube?
Any why would these tapes go missing?
Because the government "loses" things.
It is speculation for me to say that Mr. Brewer could have heard an early (with errors) broadcast about the death of a police officer.
Yes.
Like from listening to KBOX at 1:36. But it is not speculation to state that it was impossible for Mr. Brewer to have heard such a broadcast.
It's not "impossible". There's just no evidence of such a broadcast.
Why aren’t both claims considered “speculation”? And Martin’s claim an unreasonable speculation because we do have a recording of such a broadcast at 1:36, which could form the basis of Mr. Brewer’s memory of events two weeks later.
a) we don't have a broadcast at any time of a patrolman having been shot in Oak Cliff, which is what Brewer claimed.
b) the broadcast you are referring would have been too late anyway.
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Mr Elliott:
Brewer's story does not make sense.
He knew nothing regarding Tippit's murder.
Moving on, in later years he expanded his story, saying he knew Oswald, haviing earlier sold him shoes. Curious.
On a side note, Tippit was mentioned as a previous employee of the Texas Theater, according to Julia Postal.
Small world.
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Mr Elliott:
Brewer's story does not make sense.
He knew nothing regarding Tippit's murder.
Moving on, in later years he expanded his story, saying he knew Oswald, haviing earlier sold him shoes. Curious.
On a side note, Tippit was mentioned as a previous employee of the Texas Theater, according to Julia Postal.
Small world.
Do you have a source on Brewer saying Oswald bought shoes off him?
Regarding Tippit working at the Texas Theatre, Mrs Tippit said in an interview that this claim was false.
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Why is that the most likely scenario? Why couldn't Mr. Brewer hear the KBOX broadcast at 1:36 about the death of a Dallas police officer, and that form the basis of him memory, two weeks later, that he heard about the killing of a Dallas police officer before Oswald showed up?
Because there was no such broadcast. Catch up.
At 1:36 the announcement of Kennedy's death was being made.
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Because there was no such broadcast. Catch up.
At 1:36 the announcement of Kennedy's death was being made.
Brewer might have an illegal police radio. And heard the broadcast on that. Things can get boring in a shoe store.
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Brewer might have an illegal police radio. And heard the broadcast on that. Things can get boring in a shoe store.
In past years, I had also speculated about the idea that Brewer might have been listening to a police scanner on November 22nd in his shoe store. But after checking Brewer's Warren Commission testimony, I learned that the "police scanner" idea could not be accurate, because Brewer told the Commission this: "We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program."
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html