JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on March 28, 2024, 09:50:09 AM
-
This came up on another thread and I'm interested to see how Nutters deal with this issue.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time around 75 seconds.
Five days later, the 25th March, both men testify before the WC and they talk about the time trials.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and reached the first floor in less than 60 seconds. On arriving at the first floor she saw Lovelady and Shelley there as she crossed the floor, heading for the Houston Street loading dock door.
The results of the time trials are firmly established by this point and there is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the area around the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the Baker/Truly time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the timings of Shelley and Lovelady (contradicting the Truly/Baker time trials) to undermine the testimony of Adams!!
This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor.
Is there a rational and reasonable explanation in which Shelley and Lovelady are not lying and the Commission isn't using these lies to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams?
-
Is there a rational and reasonable explanation in which Shelley and Lovelady are not lying and the Commission isn't using these lies to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams?
Sure. We know that Lovelady and Shelley were standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the shots. Shelley said (22Nov63 DPD statement CE2003 24H226) that after the shots he ran across the street to the "corner of the park" (which in his WC testimony made it clear that he crossed the side-street in front of the TSBD to the sidewalk on the north side of the motorcade route:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XyLG8R7/Shelley-cross-street.jpg)
where he met Gloria Calvery who was crying as she returned to the TSBD. Shelley said he then entered the TSBD and made a phone call to his wife, which he would have made from his first floor office. So, if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock, Shelly had already walked across the street, met Glora Calvery coming to the TSBD from farther along the sidewalk (she was standing between the Thornton and Stemmons signs), crossed back to the NE corner of Houston and Elm, walked to the back of the TSBD, walked up the steps to the loading dock entrance door and walked to his office:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kX66bsGH/Shelley-route.jpg)
Since Vicki Adams came down to the first floor at the time Shelley was crossing the first floor, it took her long enough to get there after the shots as it took Shelley to:
1. cross Elm
2. meet Gloria Calvery coming back from a point about 100 ft farther along the sidewalk.
3. cross back to the corner of Elm and Houston
4. walk the distance of the TSBD + loading platform along Houston
5. walk half the width of the TSBD to the steps of the loading dock
6. walk up the steps and enter the building and start walking across the floor to his office.
-
Sure. We know that Lovelady and Shelley were standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the shots. Shelley said (22Nov63 DPD statement CE2003 24H226) that after the shots he ran across the street to the "corner of the park" (which in his WC testimony made it clear that he crossed the side-street in front of the TSBD to the sidewalk on the north side of the motorcade route:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XyLG8R7/Shelley-cross-street.jpg)
where he met Gloria Calvery who was crying as she returned to the TSBD. Shelley said he then entered the TSBD and made a phone call to his wife, which he would have made from his first floor office. So, if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock, Shelly had already walked across the street, met Glora Calvery coming to the TSBD from farther along the sidewalk (she was standing between the Thornton and Stemmons signs), crossed back to the NE corner of Houston and Elm, walked to the back of the TSBD, walked up the steps to the loading dock entrance door and walked to his office:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kX66bsGH/Shelley-route.jpg)
Since Vicki Adams came down to the first floor at the time Shelley was crossing the first floor, it took her long enough to get there after the shots as it took Shelley to:
1. cross Elm
2. meet Gloria Calvery coming back from a point about 100 ft farther along the sidewalk.
3. cross back to the corner of Elm and Houston
4. walk the distance of the TSBD + loading platform along Houston
5. walk half the width of the TSBD to the steps of the loading dock
6. walk up the steps and enter the building and start walking across the floor to his office.
Perhaps you should have read Dan's posts in the other thread before you answered, Andrew
Btw, Shelley and Lovelady never stated they entered the 1st floor at the loading dock. They said they used the door at the west side of the building. And Dan argues that was a lie.
-
Sure. We know that Lovelady and Shelley were standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the shots. Shelley said (22Nov63 DPD statement CE2003 24H226) that after the shots he ran across the street to the "corner of the park" (which in his WC testimony made it clear that he crossed the side-street in front of the TSBD to the sidewalk on the north side of the motorcade route:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XyLG8R7/Shelley-cross-street.jpg)
where he met Gloria Calvery who was crying as she returned to the TSBD. Shelley said he then entered the TSBD and made a phone call to his wife, which he would have made from his first floor office. So, if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock, Shelly had already walked across the street, met Glora Calvery coming to the TSBD from farther along the sidewalk (she was standing between the Thornton and Stemmons signs), crossed back to the NE corner of Houston and Elm, walked to the back of the TSBD, walked up the steps to the loading dock entrance door and walked to his office:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kX66bsGH/Shelley-route.jpg)
Since Vicki Adams came down to the first floor at the time Shelley was crossing the first floor, it took her long enough to get there after the shots as it took Shelley to:
1. cross Elm
2. meet Gloria Calvery coming back from a point about 100 ft farther along the sidewalk.
3. cross back to the corner of Elm and Houston
4. walk the distance of the TSBD + loading platform along Houston
5. walk half the width of the TSBD to the steps of the loading dock
6. walk up the steps and enter the building and start walking across the floor to his office.
Okay...I'm really struggling with this. There is definitely something I'm missing so just help me fully understand what you're saying here.
1.] After the last shot Shelley crosses the Elm Street extension (not Elm Street) to the concrete 'spur' that has the traffic light on it - is that what you're saying, because I agree with that if that's what you're actually saying.
2.] At this point (the 'spur') he meets Gloria running the other way from her position down on Elm Street where she could actually see JFK's head explode. Approximately 100 ft from the position she meets Shelley on the concrete 'spur'.
3.] this is where you are losing me. You seem to be saying that someone goes to the corner of Elm and Houston. Do you mean Shelley or Gloria or both of them. Where are you coming up with the idea that anyone has moved to the corner of Elm and Houston? What testimony are you basing this on? I'm genuinely baffled.
4.] I've completely lost it here. You seem to be saying that whoever has moved to the corner of Elm and Houston now moves down the length of the TSBD building on Houston Street and across the loading dock.
I literally have no idea what you're talking about.
Is this backed up by any kind of testimonial evidence? Does anyone report anything even remotely like this? Are Shelley and Lovelady together as they seem to be in almost every report they make? Is it just Shelley? What's going on? What happened to Gloria?
Is this something you have made up out of thin air with zero evidence to back it up? If it is, it's really important you state that.
Is this just pure speculation on your behalf?
If it is, that's ok, it's just that speculation does need to be backed up with some kind of evidence. At least I think it does.
How does any of what you're proposing fit in with the known testimony of Shelley or Lovelady?
When did they see Baker and Truly during this scenario?
LATER EDIT: I've just noticed something in your post. You wrote:
"...if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock..."
Where are you getting the idea from that Vicki "saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock."?
What is making you think Adams saw these men after they entered through the loading dock door. Nobody has said this happened or anything even remotely like it. Where are you getting this idea from? What makes you think Lovelady and Shelley had just entered through the loading dock door when Adams saw them? Where are you getting that idea from?
EVEN LATER EDIT: What has any of this got to do with the topic of this thread - the 3 minute lie Shelley and Lovelady sold to the Commission who eagerly swallowed it down.
You could not have written a more confusing post if you'd spent a decade working on it.
-
170+ views of this thread.
Doubtless by many of the forum's Nutters.
Apart from the very confused post by Andrew...silence.
Not really surprising as this is an insurmountable problem for those who believe wholeheartedly in the integrity of the Warren Commission.
The way the Commission handles this issue is disgraceful.
On page 152 of the report, the Baker/Truly time trials are mentioned:
"In an effort to determine whether Oswald could have descended to the lunchroom from the sixth floor by the time Baker and Truly arrived, Commission counsel asked Baker and Truly to repeat their movements from the time of the shot until Baker came upon Oswald in the lunchroom. Baker placed himself on a motorcycle about 200 feet from the corner of Elm and Houston Streets where he said he heard the shots. Truly stood in front of the building. At a given signal, they reenacted the event. Baker's movements were timed with a stopwatch. On the first test, the elapsed time between the simulated first shot and Baker's arrival on the second-floor stair landing was 1 minute and 30 seconds. The second test run required 1 minute and 15 seconds."
On page 154, just a few paragraphs later, Vicki Adams is thrown under the bus;
"Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up..."
The speed of her descent is acknowledged as is her witnessing of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. Does this mean there was something amiss with the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady who, according to their own accounts, could never have been in that location so quickly? Of course not. Their accounts are fully accepted but the fact that these accounts contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials is completely glossed over:
"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calverly, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They reentered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."
Two things to note:
Firstly, no mention of the 3 minute lie. It is conspicuously absent. This isn't surprising as the Truly/Baker time trials have been dealt with a few paragraphs earlier and the times were given - 90 and 75 seconds. How can they then have Shelley and Lovelady testifying that Baker and Truly were still outside the building three minutes after the shooting?
The Commission is more than happy to use the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to contradict the testimony of Adams but not to contradict the time trials.
Secondly, there's this sentence - "On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams."
This is an out-and-out lie. Lovelady said nothing of the sort. In fact, he said the opposite, that he couldn't say it was Vicki.
The Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about how quickly Baker and Truly entered the building.
The 3 minute lie contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials yet this was completely ignored.
Worse than that, the Commission then used this lie to contradict Adams' testimony.
And if that wasn't enough, it then lied about Lovelady's testimony in order to make sure Adams was fully discredited.
How Nutters can suck all this up without flinching is really telling.
-
170+ views of this thread.
Doubtless by many of the forum's Nutters.
Apart from the very confused post by Andrew...silence.
Not really surprising as this is an insurmountable problem for those who believe wholeheartedly in the integrity of the Warren Commission.
The way the Commission handles this issue is disgraceful.
On page 152 of the report, the Baker/Truly time trials are mentioned:
"In an effort to determine whether Oswald could have descended to the lunchroom from the sixth floor by the time Baker and Truly arrived, Commission counsel asked Baker and Truly to repeat their movements from the time of the shot until Baker came upon Oswald in the lunchroom. Baker placed himself on a motorcycle about 200 feet from the corner of Elm and Houston Streets where he said he heard the shots. Truly stood in front of the building. At a given signal, they reenacted the event. Baker's movements were timed with a stopwatch. On the first test, the elapsed time between the simulated first shot and Baker's arrival on the second-floor stair landing was 1 minute and 30 seconds. The second test run required 1 minute and 15 seconds."
On page 154, just a few paragraphs later, Vicki Adams is thrown under the bus;
"Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up..."
The speed of her descent is acknowledged as is her witnessing of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. Does this mean there was something amiss with the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady who, according to their own accounts, could never have been in that location so quickly? Of course not. Their accounts are fully accepted but the fact that these accounts contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials is completely glossed over:
"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calverly, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They reentered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."
Two things to note:
Firstly, no mention of the 3 minute lie. It is conspicuously absent. This isn't surprising as the Truly/Baker time trials have been dealt with a few paragraphs earlier and the times were given - 90 and 75 seconds. How can they then have Shelley and Lovelady testifying that Baker and Truly were still outside the building three minutes after the shooting?
The Commission is more than happy to use the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to contradict the testimony of Adams but not to contradict the time trials.
Secondly, there's this sentence - "On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams."
This is an out-and-out lie. Lovelady said nothing of the sort. In fact, he said the opposite, that he couldn't say it was Vicki.
The Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about how quickly Baker and Truly entered the building.
The 3 minute lie contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials yet this was completely ignored.
Worse than that, the Commission then used this lie to contradict Adams' testimony.
And if that wasn't enough, it then lied about Lovelady's testimony in order to make sure Adams was fully discredited.
How Nutters can suck all this up without flinching is really telling.
The reason Shelley thought it was 3 or 4 minutes is because that is how much time Shelley thought it took for Calvery to get from where she was watching the parade to where he was standing on the steps. If you have a better time estimate you would rather use, feel free to use your time estimate instead.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
The real question is how can you continually miss these statements that explain why? It would have to be because you start from a position with a pre-conceived idea. Why else would there be this constant reference to Nutters?
-
The reason Shelley thought it was 3 or 4 minutes is because that is how much time Shelley thought it took for Calvery to get from where she was watching the parade to where he was standing on the steps. If you have a better time estimate you would rather use, feel free to use your time estimate instead.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
The real question is how can you continually miss these statements that explain why? It would have to be because you start from a position with a pre-conceived idea. Why else would there be this constant reference to Nutters?
As usual, you've completely missed the point of the thread.
In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.
Both men testify that they were on the steps when the shots occurred and they stayed there until Gloria came running up to them (even though, in his same-day affidavit Shelley was clear that he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete spur that divides the two Elm Streets, where he met Gloria, and then came back to the building).
Both men testify that after Gloria tells them the President was shot they both ran across to the concrete spur (curiously both men use the exact phrase, "that little, old island", to describe the spur).
Both men testify that after they have left the steps they notice Baker and Truly in the process of entering the building.
I'm sure you don't need this spelling out but this means both men are testifying that at least three minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside the TSBD building.
That's the point!
Less than three weeks earlier the Baker/Truly time trials had taken place. Two attempts to recreate how long it took for Baker and Truly to get to the second floor after the shots. The results were 90 seconds and 75 seconds.
So, by the time Shelley and Lovelady testified, the results of the time trials were well known by the WC. They had been firmly established.
But then Shelley and Lovelady come along and both men testify that, in effect, Baker and Truly were still outside three minutes after the shots were fired!
This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
The WC let these lies stand, unchallenged. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Worse than that, even though these timings contradicted the time trials, the WC still included them to discredit Adams' testimony. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Even worse than that, the WC then covered up for these lies in their conclusions. Fact, not preconceived idea.
As a good little Nutter you won't see anything wrong with any of this.
Even though the Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that both men were lying about their timings.
Here's a simple question for you that will test how much of a Nutter you are:
How long do you think it took for Baker to reach the foot of the front steps of the TSBD building?
-
As usual, you've completely missed the point of the thread.
In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.
Both men testify that they were on the steps when the shots occurred and they stayed there until Gloria came running up to them (even though, in his same-day affidavit Shelley was clear that he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete spur that divides the two Elm Streets, where he met Gloria, and then came back to the building).
Both men testify that after Gloria tells them the President was shot they both ran across to the concrete spur (curiously both men use the exact phrase, "that little, old island", to describe the spur).
Both men testify that after they have left the steps they notice Baker and Truly in the process of entering the building.
I'm sure you don't need this spelling out but this means both men are testifying that at least three minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside the TSBD building.
That's the point!
Less than three weeks earlier the Baker/Truly time trials had taken place. Two attempts to recreate how long it took for Baker and Truly to get to the second floor after the shots. The results were 90 seconds and 75 seconds.
So, by the time Shelley and Lovelady testified, the results of the time trials were well known by the WC. They had been firmly established.
But then Shelley and Lovelady come along and both men testify that, in effect, Baker and Truly were still outside three minutes after the shots were fired!
This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
The WC let these lies stand, unchallenged. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Worse than that, even though these timings contradicted the time trials, the WC still included them to discredit Adams' testimony. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Even worse than that, the WC then covered up for these lies in their conclusions. Fact, not preconceived idea.
As a good little Nutter you won't see anything wrong with any of this.
Even though the Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that both men were lying about their timings.
Here's a simple question for you that will test how much of a Nutter you are:
How long do you think it took for Baker to reach the foot of the front steps of the TSBD building?
Shelley stated he thought it was 3 or 4 minutes because that is how long he thought it took for Calvery to travel from where she was to where he was. Maybe the time trial should have been on her.
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
-
Shelley stated he thought it was 3 or 4 minutes because that is how long he thought it took for Calvery to travel from where she was to where he was. Maybe the time trial should have been on her.
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
??
I already made that point in my post:
In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.
You really can't seem to grasp the most simple things.
Do you understand what this thread is about?
It's been established that Shelley and Lovelady testified that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes to get back to the TSBD steps.
It's been established that both men testified to seeing Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD after they see Gloria.
Now, try to concentrate here, this means they are testifying that, in effect, Truly and Baker are still outside at least three minutes after the shooting!!
But this completely contradicts the time trials Truly and Baker conducted which had them back inside the TSBD building within seconds. This is confirmed by the Darnell footage.
What is it you don't understand about this?
It's really easy to understand.
Do you even read the posts you are responding to?
You're making a real fool of yourself yet again.
And you forgot this question:
In your opinion, how long did it take Baker to reach the front steps after the shooting?
-
??
I already made that point in my post:
In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.
You really can't seem to grasp the most simple things.
Do you understand what this thread is about?
It's been established that Shelley and Lovelady testified that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes to get back to the TSBD steps.
It's been established that both men testified to seeing Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD after they see Gloria.
Now, try to concentrate here, this means they are testifying that, in effect, Truly and Baker are still outside at least three minutes after the shooting!!
But this completely contradicts the time trials Truly and Baker conducted which had them back inside the TSBD building within seconds. This is confirmed by the Darnell footage.
What is it you don't understand about this?
It's really easy to understand.
Do you even read the posts you are responding to?
You're making a real fool of yourself yet again.
And you forgot this question:
In your opinion, how long did it take Baker to reach the front steps after the shooting?
How about you answer your own question. How long did it take Calvery to run back to the TSBD? If you answer your own question, you will get the answer. Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.
It does not matter what you think about Shelley's response. It only matters what Shelley thought and he guessed based on how far he thought Calvery was away from the TSBD. Calvery never told a soul and neither did Shelley that he knew that it took Calvery 3 or 4 minutes to reach the TSBD. He was just guessing the time, nothing more.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
-
How about you answer your own question. How long did it take Calvery to run back to the TSBD? If you answer your own question, you will get the answer. Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.
It does not matter what you think about Shelley's response. It only matters what Shelley thought and he guessed based on how far he thought Calvery was away from the TSBD. Calvery never told a soul and neither did Shelley that he knew that it took Calvery 3 or 4 minutes to reach the TSBD. He was just guessing the time, nothing more.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.
And maybe we should rename you the researcher who never was.
How about you answer your own question.
Three times you've been asked this question and three times you've slithered out of it.
At least you're consistent.
If it helps, I'll tell you what I think first, then see if you can manage a straight-forward answer to a straight-forward question.
I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XNLsyWP/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.
Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.
They were still at the steps themselves when Baker arrived.
It was a matter of a few seconds before he arrived.
Now then, for the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the steps after the shooting?
Come on Jack, you can do it. It's such a simple question. Why won't you just answer it?
-
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials.
The problem appears to be the result of the WC counsel Mr. Ball being under the impression that the Lovelady and Shelley met Gloria Calvery on the steps of the TSBD and then went across Elm St and then down toward the tracks. If it took 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery to walk up to the front door, and if they saw Truly and Baker enter after that, there could be a timing problem. That is what Ball with a leading question seems to have elicited from Lovelady and possibly Shelley.
But in his 22Nov63 FBI statement (CD205 (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233152#relPageId=2)) Lovelady said:
- He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.
In his original statement on 22Nov63 (24H226) Shelley said that after the shots they ran across the street and then met Gloria Calvery:
- I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery...
The only time Lovelady mentions a time of 3 minutes is with meeting Gloria Calvery. But, according to their earlier statements, that is after they crossed Elm St. and started walking toward the railway tracks, long after the first 15-25 steps (estimated) when he saw Truly and Baker run into the building.
You have to go with the statements that were closest to the events if there is a conflict. This is especially so when the subsequent statements are made in answer to leading questions.
But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor. That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes. Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.
-
The problem appears to be the result of the WC counsel Mr. Ball being under the impression that the Lovelady and Shelley met Gloria Calvery on the steps of the TSBD and then went across Elm St and then down toward the tracks. If it took 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery to walk up to the front door, and if they saw Truly and Baker enter after that, there could be a timing problem. That is what Ball with a leading question seems to have elicited from Lovelady and possibly Shelley.
But in his 22Nov63 FBI statement (CD205 (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233152#relPageId=2)) Lovelady said:
- He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.
In his original statement on 22Nov63 (24H226) Shelley said that after the shots they ran across the street and then met Gloria Calvery:
- I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery...
The only time Lovelady mentions a time of 3 minutes is with meeting Gloria Calvery. But, according to their earlier statements, that is after they crossed Elm St. and started walking toward the railway tracks, long after the first 15-25 steps (estimated) when he saw Truly and Baker run into the building.
You have to go with the statements that were closest to the events if there is a conflict. This is especially so when the subsequent statements are made in answer to leading questions.
But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor. That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes. Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.
Hi Andrew, you don't seem to be grasping what this thread is about.
Do you agree that, during the WC hearings, both men testify that after at least three minutes, Gloria Calvery approaches them at the steps, tells them about the shooting after which they both make their way out to the concrete spur across the Elm Street extension. At some point after they have left the steps they turn around to see Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building?
Do you agree with that assessment?
Do you agree that the Darnell footage proves this is an incorrect account of events?
Do you agree that the Baker/Truly time trials prove this is an incorrect account of events?
Once I feel you have a basic understanding of what the thread is about we can move forward with some kind of discussion but, with respect to the two replies you've posted on this thread, I don't feel you really understand what's being said.
But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.
I feel this statement clearly demonstrates that you don't really know what this thread is about.
It's not about Vicki Adams.
It's about Shelley and Lovelady lying in their WC testimonies.
That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes.
What are you basing this timing on?
Please don't say the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady.
If so, I urge you to read what's been posted so far in this thread.
Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.
Familiarise yourself with the Stroud document.
Adams and Styles were down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs.
You should really know something this basic.
-
Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.
And maybe we should rename you the researcher who never was.
How about you answer your own question.
Three times you've been asked this question and three times you've slithered out of it.
At least you're consistent.
If it helps, I'll tell you what I think first, then see if you can manage a straight-forward answer to a straight-forward question.
I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XNLsyWP/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.
Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.
They were still at the steps themselves when Baker arrived.
It was a matter of a few seconds before he arrived.
Now then, for the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the steps after the shooting?
Come on Jack, you can do it. It's such a simple question. Why won't you just answer it?
You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.
Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.
Obviously, it has been determined Shelley and Lovelady did not lie to anyone.
Shelley estimated three to four minutes based on the actions of Gloria Calvery. There had to be a little time span for Shelley to even estimate three minutes. Truly thinks the time trials were a minimum not a maximum. You are doing enough speculating and guessing for everyone. 16 seconds as an estimate as to how quick Calvery returned to the front of the building has no basis in reality. The time trials can be best summarized by Truly's take on them.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.
Truly thought that 90 seconds was to short of a time span. Was he lying too? Everyone was lying. Everyone but Oswald.
It is safe to say that the idea that Shelley and Lovelady lied can be put to rest. Once again you have a picture that is a snapshot in time and tells nothing about the movement of the people or the time involved but look at the story you have created around the one picture. Shelley easily could have walked over to the island and returned with Calvery. Shelley during the parade was on the steps above Lovelady not standing at the bottom of the steps starring into space.
-
You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.
Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.
Obviously, it has been determined Shelley and Lovelady did not lie to anyone.
Shelley estimated three to four minutes based on the actions of Gloria Calvery. There had to be a little time span for Shelley to even estimate three minutes. Truly thinks the time trials were a minimum not a maximum. You are doing enough speculating and guessing for everyone. 16 seconds as an estimate as to how quick Calvery returned to the front of the building has no basis in reality. The time trials can be best summarized by Truly's take on them.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.
Truly thought that 90 seconds was to short of a time span. Was he lying too? Everyone was lying. Everyone but Oswald.
It is safe to say that the idea that Shelley and Lovelady lied can be put to rest. Once again you have a picture that is a snapshot in time and tells nothing about the movement of the people or the time involved but look at the story you have created around the one picture. Shelley easily could have walked over to the island and returned with Calvery. Shelley during the parade was on the steps above Lovelady not standing at the bottom of the steps starring into space.
Why won't you answer the question Jack?
What's wrong with you?
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?
Everyone can see you're avoiding this incredibly simple question.
Just answer it Thumb1:
-
Why won't you answer the question Jack?
What's wrong with you?
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?
Everyone can see you're avoiding this incredibly simple question.
Just answer it Thumb1:
It is obvious you have no idea as to how long it took her and I could care less. It is not as easy as how far and how fast did she run. You are trying to prove something here why not just get on with it.
The one thing you have not proven is did Shelley and Lovelady lie to discredit Adams and Styles. You just never really read their statements and realized Shelley’s statement hinged on the arrival of Calvery and how long that it took her to go that far. There is no missing three minutes in their statements. That is the real point, and which is the basis for this whole exercise. Here is the bottom line, Adams and Styles did not leave as early as they thought.
-
It is obvious you have no idea as to how long it took her and I could care less. It is not as easy as how far and how fast did she run. You are trying to prove something here why not just get on with it.
The one thing you have not proven is did Shelley and Lovelady lie to discredit Adams and Styles. You just never really read their statements and realized Shelley’s statement hinged on the arrival of Calvery and how long that it took her to go that far. There is no missing three minutes in their statements. That is the real point, and which is the basis for this whole exercise. Here is the bottom line, Adams and Styles did not leave as early as they thought.
:D :D
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
Don't be so cowardly and just answer the question.
There's an obvious reason why you won't answer it - you're going to make a massive fool of yourself. Again.
It's such a simple question Jack.
It has been proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady lied to the Commission about their movements after the assassination.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage.
It's proven to be a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It's proven to be a lie by their same-day affidavits.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
Lovelady - stayed on the front steps then went back in the building with Shelley.
In their WC statements Gloria runs up to them while they are still at the steps - contradicting Shelley's affidavit.
Then both men run across the street to "that little, old island" - contradicting Lovelady's affidavit.
In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened. Both men were back inside the front of the building within seconds of the shooting.
In further statements, as their lie evolves, Lovelady has them running down to where the limo slowed down and not the railroad yard. Shelley has them accompanying police officers down to the railroad yard where they stay for ten minutes!
The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
According to their WC statements Shelley and Lovelady have already spoken with Gloria and made their way across the Elm Street extension.
How do YOU explain this discrepancy? [Don't bother ducking this question]
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5MmpvZq/darnellcouch-Dunkel.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Poor old Jack.
-
Why would Shelley and Lovelady "intentionally lie" about their movements?
-
Hi Andrew, you don't seem to be grasping what this thread is about.
Do you agree that, during the WC hearings, both men testify that after at least three minutes, Gloria Calvery approaches them at the steps, tells them about the shooting after which they both make their way out to the concrete spur across the Elm Street extension. At some point after they have left the steps they turn around to see Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building?
Do you agree with that assessment?
They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests. My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion. They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was coming toward them from farther down Elm.
Do you agree that the Darnell footage proves this is an incorrect account of events?
Do you agree that the Baker/Truly time trials prove this is an incorrect account of events?
Once I feel you have a basic understanding of what the thread is about we can move forward with some kind of discussion but, with respect to the two replies you've posted on this thread, I don't feel you really understand what's being said.
You seem to be suggesting that Shelley and Lovelady were conspiring together to lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to enter the TSBD. But they never said that they entered three minutes after the shots. They said they met Gloria Calvery 3 minutes after the shots. They never said that they met Gloria Calvery before they crossed Elm St. That was Ball's take.
But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.
I feel this statement clearly demonstrates that you don't really know what this thread is about.
It's not about Vicki Adams.
It's about Shelley and Lovelady lying in their WC testimonies.
That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes.
What are you basing this timing on?
Please don't say the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady.
No. it is based on the fact that Adams said that when she came down the stairs to the first floor she saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor. The time is based on Shelley and Lovelady's earlier statements from 22Nov63, not their much later and somewhat confused WC testimony.
If so, I urge you to read what's been posted so far in this thread.
Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.
Familiarise yourself with the Stroud document.
Adams and Styles were down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs.
You should really know something this basic.
It may be basic to you but you are not taking into account all the evidence. If she came down before Truly and Baker went to the second floor lunchroom, she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady walking across the first floor. They could not have met Gloria Calvery before going around to the first floor entrance (not sure how they could have entered on the west side - must have been the door by the back loading dock) in before Truly and Baker went up the stairs.
-
Why would Shelley and Lovelady "intentionally lie" about their movements?
Why, indeed.
-
Why, indeed.
How about trying to answer with the understanding that would entail some speculation since you have gone on and on about this accusing them of "intentional" lies? Why would someone in their position intentionally lie about their movements under oath? Are you suggesting they were involved in the conspiracy to kill the president and frame Oswald and their role in this plot was to lie about their movements? If so, that is very silly. If not, it is difficult to understand why you think they would intentionally lie.
-
They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests. My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion. They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was running from farther down Elm.You seem to be suggesting that Shelley and Lovelady were conspiring together to lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to enter the TSBD. But they never said that they entered three minutes after the shots. They said they met Gloria Calvery 3 minutes after the shots. They never said that they met Gloria Calvery before they crossed Elm St. That was Ball's take.
No. it is based on the fact that Adams said that when she came down the stairs to the first floor she saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor. To some extent it is based on Shelley and Lovelady's statements. It may be basic to you but you are not taking into account the evidence. If that was the case, she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady walking across the first floor then. Are you suggesting that she did not see them immediately after coming down the stairs as you suggest?
I have to say, Andrew, that you are clearly unfamiliar with the WC testimonies of both Shelley and Lovelady.
The points you make in this post have no basis in fact, or anything for that matter.
They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests. My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion.
There are a couple of key points that need addressing here.
The first is the erroneous suggestion that Ball is somehow 'leading' Shelley and Lovelady, that they are going along with what Ball is 'suggesting'.
You then do a complete 180 degrees by insinuating Ball is somehow "confused" by what Shelley and Lovelady are saying!
How could he be confused by the witnesses if he is the one leading the witnesses?
Not that it matters as both points are figments of your imagination.
It is telling that you make these claims yet don't provide any testimonial evidence to back these claims up.
Is that because you know how empty these claims are?
Unlike you, I will provide the testimonial evidence demonstrating how wrong you are.
Firstly, your claim that Lovelady and Shelley somehow "confused" Ball into "thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps"
Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
There is nothing ambiguous about this piece of testimony.
Lovelady is stating, with clarity, that he was on the steps until Gloria showed up. He is not tricked into this or following up on some kind of 'suggestion'. He offers this information freely and without any provocation.
There is nothing in the slightest bit confusing about what Lovelady is saying here.
Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Ball has established that Shelley was stood on the top of the steps when the shooting occurred. Shelley describes the noises of the shots and Ball asks him what happened next:
Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
This is not a leading question and there can be zero doubt as to what Shelley is saying in this part of his testimony - he was stood on the steps when the shots occurred after which Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps. From the steps he and Lovelady headed across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
There is absolutely no confusion. Ball is under the impression that they met Gloria when they we're on the steps because that is exactly what both Shelley and Lovelady state in their testimonies. There are no leading questions. They offer this information freely and it is unambiguous. There is no confusion.
You really should familiarise yourself with the testimonial evidence before making these unfounded claims.
And the idea that Ball somehow suggested the "3 Minute Lie" and that Shelley and Lovelady just went along with it, is even more ill informed:
Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Ball asks a straight-forward question. He makes no kind of 'suggestion' as to how long it should be. Lovelady offers up this lie freely, he is not guided in any way.
Mr. Ball: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. Shelley: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Again, Shelley is asked a perfectly straight-forward question. There is nothing leading about it. And he answers it in a straight-forward manner.
It's unfortunate to say, but your claims that these men were somehow just following Ball's suggestions or that Ball was somehow confused, are either dishonest or just plain ignorant.
"They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was running from farther down Elm."
This is just plain ignorance of the various testimonies.
At no point before his WC testimony did Lovelady say he met Gloria after crossing Elm Street. This is so basic I shouldn't have to be pointing it out.
The point is that, in his WC testimony, Shelley completely changes this sequence of events. In his affidavit he makes it clear that he ran across the Elm Street extension after the shots and he met Gloria there. In his WC testimony, he now clearly states that he was on the steps when Gloria ran up to him and Lovelady.
The only reason to change this sequence of events I can see is to add the 3 Minute Lie. He has changed his original story.
In Lovelady's same-day affidavit he never left the steps but now, in his WC testimony, after hearing from Gloria, he races across to "that little, old island" with Shelley. The problem is, we already know from his affidavit, Shelley ran across there before Gloria got to the steps.
The Lie is falling apart.
You seem to be suggesting that Shelley and Lovelady were conspiring together to lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to enter the TSBD. But they never said that they entered three minutes after the shots. They said they met Gloria Calvery 3 minutes after the shots.
If you'd bothered to read the WC testimonies you would see that both Lovelady and Shelley are crystal clear that:
They were on the steps at the time of the shooting.
They were still on the steps when Gloria came running up to them.
Then they ran across the Elm Street extension.
Then they saw Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building.
If it took Gloria at least three minutes to reach the front steps then, according to Shelley and Lovelady, Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the shooting because Shelley and Lovelady saw them there after they saw Gloria.
They never said that they met Gloria Calvery before they crossed Elm St. That was Ball's take.
This is utter horsesh$t. They are both absolutely specific that they crossed Elm Street after seeing Gloria.
Lovelady - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.
Shelley - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute
I have to assume this is just complete ignorance on your behalf. It's either that or outright dishonesty.
To some extent it is based on Shelley and Lovelady's statements.
To what extent is your timing of Adams' movements based on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady.
What other testimonies are you basing it on?
It may be basic to you but you are not taking into account the evidence. If that was the case, she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady walking across the first floor then. Are you suggesting that she did not see them immediately after coming down the stairs as you suggest?
Do you even know what the Stroud document is?
There is no serious doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination. The 3 Minute Lie is proof of this.
The Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and their own affidavits prove they lied
It is hard to decide whether you are being dishonest with your spurious claims or you are simply ignorant of the evidence.
In future it would be courteous to at least provide at least a scrap of evidence to support your misguided claims.
-
How about trying to answer with the understanding that would entail some speculation since you have gone on and on about this accusing them of "intentional" lies? Why would someone in their position intentionally lie about their movements under oath? Are you suggesting they were involved in the conspiracy to kill the president and frame Oswald and their role in this plot was to lie about their movements? If so, that is very silly. If not, it is difficult to understand why you think they would intentionally lie.
Are you saying they didn't lie about their movements after the assassination?
Both men testified that they were on the steps for at least three minutes before Gloria came running up.
Both men testified that after Gloria told them about the shooting they ran across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
Both men testified that it was after they left the steps they turned and saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
Are you familiar with the Darnell footage?
Are you familiar with the Truly/Baker time trials?
Are you familiar with the testimony of Vicki Adams?
Using your patented logic, you seem to be saying that they weren't lying because you can't think of a reason why they would lie.
But they were lying - so where does that leave you?
-
Are you saying they didn't lie about their movements after the assassination?
Both men testified that they were on the steps for at least three minutes before Gloria came running up.
Both men testified that after Gloria told them about the shooting they ran across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
Both men testified that it was after they left the steps they turned and saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
Are you familiar with the Darnell footage?
Are you familiar with the Truly/Baker time trials?
Are you familiar with the testimony of Vicki Adams?
Using your patented logic, you seem to be saying that they weren't lying because you can't think of a reason why they would lie.
But they were lying - so where does that leave you?
To "intentionally lie" under oath in the case of the assassination of the president is not something anyone would do lightly. You are not suggesting that they were merely mistaken but have claimed they knowingly lied. Both of them in collusion. It raises the obvious question - why? They would only do so if they had a VERY GOOD reason for doing so. You apparently can't or won't even articulate any such possible reason understanding the absurdity of that claim in this context. This is just another example of not seeing the forest for a subjective pedantic examination of the trees. To accept your premise here, we have to believe that two random individuals decided to make up this story. That is farfetched. Where does that leave you?
-
I have to say, Andrew, that you are clearly unfamiliar with the WC testimonies of both Shelley and Lovelady.
The points you make in this post have no basis in fact, or anything for that matter.
They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests. My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion.
There are a couple of key points that need addressing here.
The first is the erroneous suggestion that Ball is somehow 'leading' Shelley and Lovelady, that they are going along with what Ball is 'suggesting'.
You then do a complete 180 degrees by insinuating Ball is somehow "confused" by what Shelley and Lovelady are saying!
How could he be confused by the witnesses if he is the one leading the witnesses?
That is not what happened. From Lovelady's earlier statement Ball should have known that Lovelady was not saying that he stood on the steps for three minutes. He said that they immediately ran towards the Presidential car but it sped away toward the triple underpass. Shelley also said that they ran across the street where they met Gloria Calvery. Neither man had said in prior statements that they met her on the steps. If Ball had understood their previous statements he would have known that there was a huge inconsistency between what they said initially and what he was suggesting (that they met Gloria C. on the steps before they ran across the street) and he would have asked them to explain their previous statements. He didn't. That tells me he did not fully grasp what they had said on previous occasions. And he did it by leading the witnesses eg:
"Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria. did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.
Not that it matters as both points are figments of your imagination.
It is telling that you make these claims yet don't provide any testimonial evidence to back these claims up.
Is that because you know how empty these claims are?
Unlike you, I will provide the testimonial evidence demonstrating how wrong you are.
Firstly, your claim that Lovelady and Shelley somehow "confused" Ball into "thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps"
Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
There is nothing ambiguous about this piece of testimony.
Yes there is. He did not say there that Gloria came running up to them while there were on the steps. He said that is when it first occurred to him that the President had been shot.
Lovelady is stating, with clarity, that he was on the steps until Gloria showed up. He is not tricked into this or following up on some kind of 'suggestion'. He offers this information freely and without any provocation.
There is nothing in the slightest bit confusing about what Lovelady is saying here.
Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Ball has established that Shelley was stood on the top of the steps when the shooting occurred.
Yes. So far there is no contradiction to what they said before.
Shelley describes the noises of the shots and Ball asks him what happened next:
Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
This is not a leading question and there can be zero doubt as to what Shelley is saying in this part of his testimony - he was stood on the steps when the shots occurred after which Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps. From the steps he and Lovelady headed across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
That is not a leading question but the damage had been done previously. If Ball had been properly prepared, he would have known about the previous inconsistent statements and raised the inconsistencies in an effort to resolve them. I am not blaming Ball for anything. They were very busy and working on tight timelines on one of the largest cases in history. This kind of thing happens all the time in trials. But then you have opposing counsel who may point out and try to resolve the contradiction.
There is absolutely no confusion. Ball is under the impression that they met Gloria when they we're on the steps because that is exactly what both Shelley and Lovelady state in their testimonies. There are no leading questions. They offer this information freely and it is unambiguous. There is no confusion.
You really should familiarise yourself with the testimonial evidence before making these unfounded claims.
You are overlooking their previous statements which are inconsistent with them meeting Gloria C. on the TSBD steps. We would have a much better idea of what they saw if they had been asked to explain the contradiction with their earlier statements. Unfortunately that did not occur because of Mr. Ball not recognizing the contradiction. If he had, he would have asked them to explain it.
And the idea that Ball somehow suggested the "3 Minute Lie" and that Shelley and Lovelady just went along with it, is even more ill informed:
Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Ball asks a straight-forward question. He makes no kind of 'suggestion' as to how long it should be. Lovelady offers up this lie freely, he is not guided in any way.
He does not say that she came up to them while they were standing on the steps.
Mr. Ball: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. Shelley: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Again, Shelley is asked a perfectly straight-forward question. There is nothing leading about it. And he answers it in a straight-forward manner.
It's unfortunate to say, but your claims that these men were somehow just following Ball's suggestions or that Ball was somehow confused, are either dishonest or just plain ignorant.
I am saying that Ball was confused and did not try to reconcile their answers to his questions with their previous statements. The witness is testifying about events that took place 6 months earlier and may not have read over their earlier statements to refresh their memory. Memories can change on small details like time intervals. Ball obviously thought there was nothing inconsistent with their previous statements and then proceeded to ask questions based on the faulty premise that they had met Gloria C. on the TSBD front steps before they ran across the street. Lovelady said they ran after the president's car but it sped away. I don't think they ran after it 3+ minutes after the shots.
"They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was running from farther down Elm."
This is just plain ignorance of the various testimonies.
"from the beginning" refers to 22Nov63.
At no point before his WC testimony did Lovelady say he met Gloria after crossing Elm Street. This is so basic I shouldn't have to be pointing it out.
The point is that, in his WC testimony, Shelley completely changes this sequence of events. In his affidavit he makes it clear that he ran across the Elm Street extension after the shots and he met Gloria there. In his WC testimony, he now clearly states that he was on the steps when Gloria ran up to him and Lovelady.
The only reason to change this sequence of events I can see is to add the 3 Minute Lie. He has changed his original story.
Or they had not retained those fine details by April 1964 and had not been reminded of what they said 6 months earlier. You cannot accuse them of lying when they were not asked to explain their original statements.
In Lovelady's same-day affidavit he never left the steps but now, in his WC testimony, after hearing from Gloria, he races across to "that little, old island" with Shelley. The problem is, we already know from his affidavit, Shelley ran across there before Gloria got to the steps.
The Lie is falling apart.
You are the only one suggesting it is a lie. They were never confronted with their previous inconsistent statements. If they had, they may have said "oh, yeah. That's right. We met Gloria C. farther down along Elm after we crossed the street. That's right, I remember running down Elm immediately after the shots trying to see the President's car but it sped away. So, I saw Truly and the officer enter when I left the steps which was maybe a few seconds after the shots." But because Ball did not realize the inconsistency, he never asked the questions.
To some extent it is based on Shelley and Lovelady's statements.
To what extent is your timing of Adams' movements based on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady. What other testimonies are you basing it on?
It is based on their earlier statements in which they said that they went across the street and down toward the railway tracks and then back along the west side of the TSBD and in the back loading dock door where Victoria Adams saw them as they crossed the floor. During that time, Truly and Baker had entered the building and had gone up to the second floor lunch room where they met Oswald. Adams did not see Oswald but she saw Shelley and Lovelady immediately after coming down the stairs from the fourth floor. That could not possibly have been before Truly and Baker met Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room.
Do you even know what the Stroud document is?
I gather it is the hearsay document provided by one of the WC counsel, Martha Stroud. There is a copy of it in The Girl on the Stairs in case you are inclined to let others know where to find it.
It states that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker come up the stairs after Adams went down. We don't have that from Garner. So it is hearsay. How reliable was Stroud in restating what Garner may have said? How reliable is the typist in accurately stating what Stroud dicatated? or how careful Stroud was in reviewing the letter before signing? We have no idea. We do know that she signed a letter that misspelled David Belin's name. What did Garner actually see? We don't know. Maybe she meant that she saw a policeman come up the stairs and Stroud assumed that it was the policeman with Truly. Garner stayed on the fourth floor after all and did not spend all her time near the stairs.
There is no serious doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination. The 3 Minute Lie is proof of this.
The Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and their own affidavits prove they lied
It is hard to decide whether you are being dishonest with your spurious claims or you are simply ignorant of the evidence.
In future it would be courteous to at least provide at least a scrap of evidence to support your misguided claims.
Only you think they lied.
-
That is not what happened. From Lovelady's earlier statement Ball should have known that Lovelady was not saying that he stood on the steps for three minutes. He said that they immediately ran towards the Presidential car but it sped away toward the triple underpass. Shelley also said that they ran across the street where they met Gloria Calvery. Neither man had said in prior statements that they met her on the steps. If Ball had understood their previous statements he would have known that there was a huge inconsistency between what they said initially and what he was suggesting (that they met Gloria C. on the steps before they ran across the street) and he would have asked them to explain their previous statements. He didn't. That tells me he did not fully grasp what they had said on previous occasions. And he did it by leading the witnesses eg:
"Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria. did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.
Yes there is. He did not say there that Gloria came running up to them while there were on the steps. He said that is when it first occurred to him that the President had been shot. Yes. So far there is no contradiction to what they said before.
That is not a leading question but the damage had been done previously. If Ball had been properly prepared, he would have known about the previous inconsistent statements and raised the inconsistencies in an effort to resolve them. I am not blaming Ball for anything. They were very busy and working on tight timelines on one of the largest cases in history. This kind of thing happens all the time in trials. But then you have opposing counsel who may point out and try to resolve the contradiction.
You are overlooking their previous statements which are inconsistent with them meeting Gloria C. on the TSBD steps. We would have a much better idea of what they saw if they had been asked to explain the contradiction with their earlier statements. Unfortunately that did not occur because of Mr. Ball not recognizing the contradiction. If he had, he would have asked them to explain it.
He does not say that she came up to them while they were standing on the steps. I am saying that Ball was confused and did not try to reconcile their answers to his questions with their previous statements. The witness is testifying about events that took place 6 months earlier and may not have read over their earlier statements to refresh their memory. Memories can change on small details like time intervals. Ball obviously thought there was nothing inconsistent with their previous statements and then proceeded to ask questions based on the faulty premise that they had met Gloria C. on the TSBD front steps before they ran across the street. Lovelady said they ran after the president's car but it sped away. I don't think they ran after it 3+ minutes after the shots."from the beginning" refers to 22Nov63.
Or they had not retained those fine details by April 1964 and had not been reminded of what they said 6 months earlier. You cannot accuse them of lying when they were not asked to explain their original statements.You are the only one suggesting it is a lie. They were never confronted with their previous inconsistent statements. If they had, they may have said "oh, yeah. That's right. We met Gloria C. farther down along Elm after we crossed the street. That's right, I remember running down Elm immediately after the shots trying to see the President's car but it sped away. So, I saw Truly and the officer enter when I left the steps which was maybe a few seconds after the shots." But because Ball did not realize the inconsistency, he never asked the questions.
It is based on their earlier statements in which they said that they went across the street and down toward the railway tracks and then back along the west side of the TSBD and in the back loading dock door where Victoria Adams saw them as they crossed the floor. During that time, Truly and Baker had entered the building and had gone up to the second floor lunch room where they met Oswald. Adams did not see Oswald but she saw Shelley and Lovelady immediately after coming down the stairs from the fourth floor. That could not possibly have been before Truly and Baker met Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room.
I gather it is the hearsay document provided by one of the WC counsel, Martha Stroud. There is a copy of it in The Girl on the Stairs in case you are inclined to let others know where to find it.
It states that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker come up the stairs after Adams went down. We don't have that from Garner. So it is hearsay. How reliable was Stroud in restating what Garner may have said? How reliable is the typist in accurately stating what Stroud dicatated? or how careful Stroud was in reviewing the letter before signing? We have no idea. We do know that she signed a letter that misspelled David Belin's name. What did Garner actually see? We don't know. Maybe she meant that she saw a policeman come up the stairs and Stroud assumed that it was the policeman with Truly. Garner stayed on the fourth floor after all and did not spend all her time near the stairs.
Only you think they lied.
The first thing to do is to get you to back off from your unfounded assertion that there is some kind of confusion over whether or not Shelley and Lovelady were stood on the front steps when they encountered Gloria Calvery, according to their WC testimonies.
When we look at their WC testimonies we see that both men are absolutely unequivocal about this point.
It is a fact that both men testify to the following sequence of events:
1] They were stood on the steps when the shooting happened.
2] They had not moved from the steps by the time Gloria came running up to them.
3] They left the steps heading across the Elm Street extension.
4] They turn and see Truly and Baker still stood outside the building.
Do you agree with this? if not, can you show in their WC testimonies where they say anything different.
The following are excerpts from the WC testimonies of both men demonstrating, beyond any doubt, that they testify to the sequence of events I have laid out.
LOVELADY
Mr. Lovelady: ...I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. Ball: You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. Ball: The top step you were standing there?
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. Lovelady: Yeah.
Mr. Ball: When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. Lovelady: Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street...
Mr. Ball: By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. Lovelady: As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
SHELLEY
Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Shelley: Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. Ball: Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Do you agree with the fact that both men testify to the following sequence of events in their WC testimonies:
1] They were stood on the steps when the shooting happened.
2] They had not moved from the steps by the time Gloria came running up to them.
3] They left the steps heading across the Elm Street extension.
4] They turn and see Truly and Baker still stood outside the building.
You were also asked to what extent you relied on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady when determining how long it took Adams to make it down to the first floor. You implied that you were using evidence other than the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to make your determination.
What other evidence were you using?
-
:D :D
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
Don't be so cowardly and just answer the question.
There's an obvious reason why you won't answer it - you're going to make a massive fool of yourself. Again.
It's such a simple question Jack.
It has been proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady lied to the Commission about their movements after the assassination.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage.
It's proven to be a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It's proven to be a lie by their same-day affidavits.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
Lovelady - stayed on the front steps then went back in the building with Shelley.
In their WC statements Gloria runs up to them while they are still at the steps - contradicting Shelley's affidavit.
Then both men run across the street to "that little, old island" - contradicting Lovelady's affidavit.
In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened. Both men were back inside the front of the building within seconds of the shooting.
In further statements, as their lie evolves, Lovelady has them running down to where the limo slowed down and not the railroad yard. Shelley has them accompanying police officers down to the railroad yard where they stay for ten minutes!
The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
According to their WC statements Shelley and Lovelady have already spoken with Gloria and made their way across the Elm Street extension.
How do YOU explain this discrepancy? [Don't bother ducking this question]
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5MmpvZq/darnellcouch-Dunkel.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Poor old Jack.
The 3 minute lie are you ever going to prove it are just talk all around it and hope I prove it for you?
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
I thought it was six and counting but you would be the expert on that count. You can't even explain why it is important. In fact in this whole confused rant, you have yet to make a valid point about a lie.
In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened
In Shelley’s and Lovelady’s affidavits there is no mention of Adams and Styles or Baker and Truly. In Calvery’s affidavit there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady or Baker and Truly. Does that make her a liar as well? Lovelady does not mention Calvery at all. So, if he mentions them in their WC testimonies that makes them liars too? Are you even remotely aware of how many witnesses have similar testimonies? So, exactly what is your point and how does that make them standout as being different than all the other witnesses? How does that prove a 3 minute lie? A lie you seem to be distancing yourself from with every post.
The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
Seconds? No, it does not, this is an outright fabrication.
No, the Darnell footage shows a cop running to the TSBD. You have consistently stated it does not prove he went inside. Now are you lying now about him running into the building? Where is there any time attributed to the film?
You have taken a photo, created a story around it that only you think is accurate and stating all these people are lying. A photo only you can make out the participants. The interesting part is still how Lovelady and Shelley get in front of Truly and Baker in order to complete this fanciful tale. This whole story depends on Shelley and Lovelady telling the truth about talking to Calvery but also lying about everything else. Can you explain the reason for this odd logic? Maybe start with why are all the people who are lying are in a dead sprint to be where you want them to be.
Guessing and conjecture is all this whole post is about. Not a true fact anywhere. Until I read to you Shelley’s statement about Calvery you did not have an interest in her. Now you believe that part of his statement is undeniable, but the time is a lie. There is a point in time where constant accusations are just part of the endless tripe.
You have not proven anything.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
No, going back into the building is something you just made up. Both Shelley and Lovelady felt it was about a three minutes time span until they spoke with her.
Just curious but are you even capable of an original thought?
-
The 3 minute lie are you ever going to prove it are just talk all around it and hope I prove it for you?
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
I thought it was six and counting but you would be the expert on that count. You can't even explain why it is important. In fact in this whole confused rant, you have yet to make a valid point about a lie.
In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened
In Shelley’s and Lovelady’s affidavits there is no mention of Adams and Styles or Baker and Truly. In Calvery’s affidavit there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady or Baker and Truly. Does that make her a liar as well? Lovelady does not mention Calvery at all. So, if he mentions them in their WC testimonies that makes them liars too? Are you even remotely aware of how many witnesses have similar testimonies? So, exactly what is your point and how does that make them standout as being different than all the other witnesses? How does that prove a 3 minute lie? A lie you seem to be distancing yourself from with every post.
The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
Seconds? No, it does not, this is an outright fabrication.
No, the Darnell footage shows a cop running to the TSBD. You have consistently stated it does not prove he went inside. Now are you lying now about him running into the building? Where is there any time attributed to the film?
You have taken a photo, created a story around it that only you think is accurate and stating all these people are lying. A photo only you can make out the participants. The interesting part is still how Lovelady and Shelley get in front of Truly and Baker in order to complete this fanciful tale. This whole story depends on Shelley and Lovelady telling the truth about talking to Calvery but also lying about everything else. Can you explain the reason for this odd logic? Maybe start with why are all the people who are lying are in a dead sprint to be where you want them to be.
Guessing and conjecture is all this whole post is about. Not a true fact anywhere. Until I read to you Shelley’s statement about Calvery you did not have an interest in her. Now you believe that part of his statement is undeniable, but the time is a lie. There is a point in time where constant accusations are just part of the endless tripe.
You have not proven anything.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
No, going back into the building is something you just made up. Both Shelley and Lovelady felt it was about a three minutes time span until they spoke with her.
Just curious but are you even capable of an original thought?
Oh dear.
What a sad and confused little post this is.
Really not sure why you bother as you constantly end up looking a bit foolish.
I thought it was six and counting but you would be the expert on that count. You can't even explain why it is important. In fact in this whole confused rant, you have yet to make a valid point about a lie.
Don't you remember Jack, it was six and counting regarding the 'untruth' you were telling about how Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett had made statements that refuted Adams' testimony. I simply asked you to provide these statements but you couldn't do that because they don't exist. Rather than admit you'd made it all up you had to keep avoiding the simple question over and over again, making you appear even more silly than if you'd just owned up.
Because you don't know what you're talking about you end up making silly statements and painting yourself into a corner.
And here we are again.
I've asked you a simple question knowing that whatever answer you give is going to make you look foolish. You must have figured that out as well which is why you refuse to answer such a simple question.
If you don't believe me, just answer the question.
So, for the FIFTH time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
Seconds? No, it does not, this is an outright fabrication.
No, the Darnell footage shows a cop running to the TSBD. You have consistently stated it does not prove he went inside. Now are you lying now about him running into the building? Where is there any time attributed to the film?
??? Wow!!
Even for you this is a next level senior moment.
It appears I'm going to have to hold your hand through this one.
Look at my quotation again. Read it slowly. It says that the Darnell footage shows Baker "reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting".
Reaching the foot
Don't you understand?
There is no mention of Baker "running into the building", as you put it.
Do you understand?
And have you forgotten already - it was you who was saying that the Darnell footage showed Baker entering the building, not me!
It wasn't that long ago.
Here, let me show you the quote, see if it jogs your memory. It's from Reply#339 on the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread:
Why does this even matter? Baker entering the TSBD is on film and is a known time event. Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes.
Don't you remember, I responded by pointing out what a poor grasp of the evidence you have. What an understatement that was.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
No, going back into the building is something you just made up. Both Shelley and Lovelady felt it was about a three minutes time span until they spoke with her.
::)
Oh, brother.
This is a summary of Shelley's affidavit in which he states very clearly that he went back inside the building.
Just do some basic research and you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself,
Here is a link to the affidavit, all you have to do is read it:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/
Just curious but are you even capable of an original thought?
Are you capable of any kind of thought?
-
The topic of this thread is the 3 minute Lie both Shelley and Lovelady told the WC during their testimonies.
Both men were basically testifying that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the shooting.
This is an easily disprovable lie as we have the Darnell footage which shows Baker reaching the area of the front steps within seconds of the assassination.
It is also proved a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials which had both men entering the building within seconds of the last shot.
The Nutters who believe Shelley and Lovelady didn't lie must accept that the Darnell footage is fake and the Truly/Baker time trials were fake. They must also accept that the encounter with Oswald in the second floor lunchroom 75 seconds after the assassination was also fake and that Oswald was lying to his interrogators when he mentioned it or that his interrogators were lying when they reported Oswald referring to it.
They must also believe the testimony of Victoria Adams is a pack of lies and that Sandra Styles and Dorothy Garner are also liars.
Nutters don't think things through because they think what they're told to think.
So, let's assume the Darnell footage is real, let's assume the Truly/Baker time trials were accurate, let's assume Adams, Styles, Garner, Truly, Baker, and those interrogators who reported Oswald's encounter with Baker aren't all liars.
Let's assume the only people lying are Shelley and Lovelady.
We have the following scenario -
The shots are fired.
Before the limo even reaches the Underpass Adams decides to get downstairs to find out what's going on. She turns to Styles and says, to paraphrase, "Let's go!". Baker sees the pigeons flying off the roof and decides he needs to get to the top of the TSBD building. He pulls up and races towards the TSBD steps, He enters the lobby, followed by Shelley and Lovelady who make their way past him as he tries to find out how to get up the building. Truly shows up to help him and as they are chatting in the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady make their way to the back of the first floor.
Adams and Styles hit the first floor approximately 40 seconds after the last shot, Adams calls out to Shelley and Lovelady about the President but they ignore her. Adams and Styles exit the back door and seconds later Baker and Truly arrive in the same area, where Baker reports seeing two white men just hanging out in that area seconds after the shooting.
Adams and Styles make their way round the building, Baker and Truly make their way up the building.
In this scenario the testimonies of everyone other than Shelley and Lovelady makes sense.
The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.
-
Oh dear.
What a sad and confused little post this is.
Really not sure why you bother as you constantly end up looking a bit foolish.Don't you remember Jack, it was six and counting regarding the 'untruth' you were telling about how Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett had made statements that refuted Adams' testimony. I simply asked you to provide these statements but you couldn't do that because they don't exist. Rather than admit you'd made it all up you had to keep avoiding the simple question over and over again, making you appear even more silly than if you'd just owned up.
Because you don't know what you're talking about you end up making silly statements and painting yourself into a corner.
And here we are again.
I've asked you a simple question knowing that whatever answer you give is going to make you look foolish. You must have figured that out as well which is why you refuse to answer such a simple question.
If you don't believe me, just answer the question.
So, for the FIFTH time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
??? Wow!!
Even for you this is a next level senior moment.
It appears I'm going to have to hold your hand through this one.
Look at my quotation again. Read it slowly. It says that the Darnell footage shows Baker "reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting".
Reaching the foot
Don't you understand?
There is no mention of Baker "running into the building", as you put it.
Do you understand?
And have you forgotten already - it was you who was saying that the Darnell footage showed Baker entering the building, not me!
It wasn't that long ago.
Here, let me show you the quote, see if it jogs your memory. It's from Reply#339 on the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread:
Why does this even matter? Baker entering the TSBD is on film and is a known time event. Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes.
Don't you remember, I responded by pointing out what a poor grasp of the evidence you have. What an understatement that was.
::)
Oh, brother.
This is a summary of Shelley's affidavit in which he states very clearly that he went back inside the building.
Just do some basic research and you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself,
Here is a link to the affidavit, all you have to do is read it:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/
Are you capable of any kind of thought?
Don't you remember Jack, it was six and counting regarding the 'untruth' you were telling about how Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett
Actually, I do remember. It had nothing to do with Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett. Stop trying to lie your way through this, it was all about Calvery. It is hard to take you seriously when you can't be honest about the little things. That is a lie you are telling because those officers completely refuted your whole fantasy story. Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett give a factual time stamped accounting of the exterior of the TSBD after the shooting, and those timestamps completely refute everything you have posted. No number of false statements on your part can change that.
So, for the FIFTH time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
Here are your last three fourth time counting posts: All the fourth time. All about Calvery. You can't even be honest about something as simple as this. That explains all the nonsense being posted.
Reply 10- Now then, for the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the steps after the shooting?
Reply 14- For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?
:D :D
Reply 16- For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
The last one had emojis with it that look like a post maybe from an adolescent girl. Typical of how you think.
There is no mention of Baker "running into the building", as you put it.
Do you understand?
Understand completely. Now you are stating Baker, Truly, Shelley, and Lovelady all lied about Baker and Truly entering the building, because you can’t understand how they got there, because the Darnell film does not show it.
This is a summary of Shelley's affidavit in which he states very clearly that he went back inside the building.
Oddly for someone who is always making the claim of a superior knowledgeable about the correlation of all these statements to be completely evade this post. Have another try at it.
In Shelley’s and Lovelady’s affidavits there is no mention of Adams and Styles or Baker and Truly. In Calvery’s affidavit there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady or Baker and Truly. Does that make her a liar as well? Lovelady does not mention Calvery at all. So, if he mentions them in their WC testimonies that makes them liars too? Are you even remotely aware of how many witnesses have similar testimonies? So, exactly what is your point and how does that make them standout as being different than all the other witnesses? How does that prove a 3 minute lie? A lie you seem to be distancing yourself from with every post.
-
The topic of this thread is the 3 minute Lie both Shelley and Lovelady told the WC during their testimonies.
Both men were basically testifying that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the shooting.
This is an easily disprovable lie as we have the Darnell footage which shows Baker reaching the area of the front steps within seconds of the assassination.
It is also proved a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials which had both men entering the building within seconds of the last shot.
The Nutters who believe Shelley and Lovelady didn't lie must accept that the Darnell footage is fake and the Truly/Baker time trials were fake. They must also accept that the encounter with Oswald in the second floor lunchroom 75 seconds after the assassination was also fake and that Oswald was lying to his interrogators when he mentioned it or that his interrogators were lying when they reported Oswald referring to it.
They must also believe the testimony of Victoria Adams is a pack of lies and that Sandra Styles and Dorothy Garner are also liars.
Nutters don't think things through because they think what they're told to think.
So, let's assume the Darnell footage is real, let's assume the Truly/Baker time trials were accurate, let's assume Adams, Styles, Garner, Truly, Baker, and those interrogators who reported Oswald's encounter with Baker aren't all liars.
Let's assume the only people lying are Shelley and Lovelady.
We have the following scenario -
The shots are fired.
Before the limo even reaches the Underpass Adams decides to get downstairs to find out what's going on. She turns to Styles and says, to paraphrase, "Let's go!". Baker sees the pigeons flying off the roof and decides he needs to get to the top of the TSBD building. He pulls up and races towards the TSBD steps, He enters the lobby, followed by Shelley and Lovelady who make their way past him as he tries to find out how to get up the building. Truly shows up to help him and as they are chatting in the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady make their way to the back of the first floor.
Adams and Styles hit the first floor approximately 40 seconds after the last shot, Adams calls out to Shelley and Lovelady about the President but they ignore her. Adams and Styles exit the back door and seconds later Baker and Truly arrive in the same area, where Baker reports seeing two white men just hanging out in that area seconds after the shooting.
Adams and Styles make their way round the building, Baker and Truly make their way up the building.
In this scenario the testimonies of everyone other than Shelley and Lovelady makes sense.
The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.
The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.
The frightening thing is that actually seems to make sense to you. I guess you think if you say it enough that somehow it magically becomes true. Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting. Repeating these false statements over and over does not change the officers' timestamps.
-
The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.
The frightening thing is that actually seems to make sense to you. I guess you think if you say it enough that somehow it magically becomes true. Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting. Repeating these false statements over and over does not change the officers' timestamps.
Yet another in a long list of senior moments.
You've got the threads mixed up Jack.
I think it's time for your nap. ::)
But here's a chance for you to avoid yet another simple question over and over again.
You posted that this
Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting
Here's the question:
How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
Here's your big chance to show what an excellent "researcher" you are.
Are you going to answer this question or run away like you've done time after time?
What's it going to be Jack?
-
You have taken a photo, created a story around it that only you think is accurate and stating all these people are lying. A photo only you can make out the participants. The interesting part is still how Lovelady and Shelley get in front of Truly and Baker in order to complete this fanciful tale. This whole story depends on Shelley and Lovelady telling the truth about talking to Calvery but also lying about everything else. Can you explain the reason for this odd logic? Maybe start with why are all the people who are lying are in a dead sprint to be where you want them to be.
Guessing and conjecture is all this whole post is about. Not a true fact anywhere. Until I read to you Shelley’s statement about Calvery you did not have an interest in her. Now you believe that part of his statement is undeniable, but the time is a lie. There is a point in time where constant accusations are just part of the endless tripe.
You have not proven anything.
This is some harsh truth. Well said.
-
The following are excerpts from the WC testimonies of both men demonstrating, beyond any doubt, that they testify to the sequence of events I have laid out.
LOVELADY
Mr. Lovelady: ...I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. Ball: You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. Ball: The top step you were standing there?
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. Lovelady: Yeah.
Mr. Ball: When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. Lovelady: Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street...
Mr. Ball: By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. Lovelady: As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
SHELLEY
Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Shelley: Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. Ball: Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Do you agree with the fact that both men testify to the following sequence of events in their WC testimonies:
1] They were stood on the steps when the shooting happened.
2] They had not moved from the steps by the time Gloria came running up to them.
3] They left the steps heading across the Elm Street extension.
4] They turn and see Truly and Baker still stood outside the building.
It is not clear from the excerpts you have provided that they are saying that Gloria Calvery came up to them when they were on the steps. That might be an inference one could draw, were it not for their earlier statements where they made it clear that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Calvery.
You were also asked to what extent you relied on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady when determining how long it took Adams to make it down to the first floor. You implied that you were using evidence other than the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to make your determination.
What other evidence were you using?
Their earlier statements. They described going across Elm trying to see the President's car but it sped away under the triple underpass. They described then going to the rail yards and then going back along the west side of the building and entering the back door by the rear loading dock.
-
Yet another in a long list of senior moments.
You've got the threads mixed up Jack.
I think it's time for your nap. ::)
But here's a chance for you to avoid yet another simple question over and over again.
You posted that this
Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting
Here's the question:
How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
Here's your big chance to show what an excellent "researcher" you are.
Are you going to answer this question or run away like you've done time after time?
What's it going to be Jack?
How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
This is a relief. I thought you had been stupidly posting that Shelley and Lovelady had actually sprinted to the elevator area immediately after the shots were fired. That in some bizarre fashion that Calvery had sprinted to the steps and told them JFK had been shot and this information was now the key to understanding this sudden revelation. That Shelley and Lovelady had been seen standing near the elevator by Adams and Styles before Truly and Baker ran up the stairs to the second-floor encounter with Oswald.
Obviously, you are now indicating you have not been stating that at all. Instead because of the testimonies of Harkness, Swayer, and Barnett you now believe Adams and Styles had left the fourth floor later than they thought. Welcome back to reality Dan. We have missed you.
Originally, I thought you posted this as an obvious meaningless dodge to not address the obvious problems with this whole ridiculous storyline, but now I can see, like a cry for help, you are sincerely wanting to better your understanding of the assassination. Congratulations, glad I could help you.
-
How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
This is a relief. I thought you had been stupidly posting that Shelley and Lovelady had actually sprinted to the elevator area immediately after the shots were fired. That in some bizarre fashion that Calvery had sprinted to the steps and told them JFK had been shot and this information was now the key to understanding this sudden revelation. That Shelley and Lovelady had been seen standing near the elevator by Adams and Styles before Truly and Baker ran up the stairs to the second-floor encounter with Oswald.
Obviously, you are now indicating you have not been stating that at all. Instead because of the testimonies of Harkness, Swayer, and Barnett you now believe Adams and Styles had left the fourth floor later than they thought. Welcome back to reality Dan. We have missed you.
Originally, I thought you posted this as an obvious meaningless dodge to not address the obvious problems with this whole ridiculous storyline, but now I can see, like a cry for help, you are sincerely wanting to better your understanding of the assassination. Congratulations, glad I could help you.
You're clearly having the meltdown I was worried about.
I'll try the question again:
How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
Please take your meds and have a nap before trying to answer the question old-timer.
-
It is not clear from the excerpts you have provided that they are saying that Gloria Calvery came up to them when they were on the steps.
This is simply not true.
The WC testimonies of both men are unequivocal - they were on the steps at the time of the shooting and didn't leave the steps until after the encounter with Gloria. It is only once they leave the steps that they see Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building. There is no other way to interpret their testimonies.
It is utterly dishonest of you to insinuate otherwise.
That might be an inference one could draw, were it not for their earlier statements where they made it clear that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Calvery.
Firstly, this is not the first time you have made the dishonest claim that both men made earlier statements that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Gloria. Lovelady never made any such claim and it's dishonest of you to keep asserting he did.
And it is really bizarre to suggest that, because Shelley stated in his affidavit on the day of the assassination that he ran across Elm and met Gloria, when he completely changes his story in his WC testimony we are meant to ignore it because of his earlier statement!!
Shelley and Lovelady are lying about their movements after the assassination, that is what the 3 Minute Lie is part of. Shelley's change of story is yet another indication of the lies he is telling. Instead, you try to use it as a way to interpret his WC testimony in a way that suits you! Could there be a more dishonest approach to the evidence?
I don't think so.
Their earlier statements. They described going across Elm trying to see the President's car but it sped away under the triple underpass. They described then going to the rail yards and then going back along the west side of the building and entering the back door by the rear loading dock.
Shelley and Lovelady are lying about their movements after the assassination.
It's why their stories keep changing from statement to statement.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimonies/statements of Baker, Truly, Adams, Styles, Garner, Molina and Pauline Sanders.
You're assertion, that Adams lied in her testimony, is based solely on the statements/testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady, two proven liars.
This is good enough for you and Nutters like you but not for anyone looking honestly at this issue.
Personally, I would be ashamed at the dishonest tactics you have to resort to, but for you it seems like it's just another day at the office.
-
While Jack takes a nap I'd like to have a closer look at this claim I made in an earlier post:
I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XNLsyWP/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The woman in white is dressed very distinctively, a white headscarf and dress. she appears to be linking arms with Gloria, who wears a black headscarf and black top. I believe this is the woman who was with Gloria as reported by Joe Molina:
Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
From various testimonies it is clear Gloria saw JFK's head explode so she must have been standing close enough to the limo when the headshot occurred to see it. There are a number of films taken around the moment of the assassination so it should not be too difficult to locate these two women, proving that at the moment of the headshot they were stood somewhere on Elm Street but seconds later they were on the front steps of the TSBD building.
In March of '64 the employees of the TSBD building gave statements [CE1381's] to the FBI including their whereabouts at the time of the assassination and who they were with. Gloria states that she left her office with three work colleagues to go and watch the motorcade - Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed. In their CE1381's each woman confirms she was with the other three at the time of the assassination but there is something weird about these statements that needs to be mentioned before moving on. Three of the statements - Calvery, Westbrook and Hicks' - are identical. Only Carol Reed's statement is different.
The CE1381's state that the four women were on Elm Street, about halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would make sense as the head shot occurred in this general area and Gloria has to be stood close enough to see it. However, there is a discrepancy - according to one version they are stood on the south side of Elm Street but in the other they are stood on the sidewalk, which is on the north side of Elm Street.
So, which is it, north or south?
When we watch the Zapruder film we see there is no-one on the south side of Elm Street that fits the description of these four young women. As the limo moves along we see:
Two black men clapping
The Babushka lady, Charles Brehm and his son.
Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.
Two older men in dark suits - one is Altgens and I believe the other is Bothun.
A diving Malcolm Summers
A family of three - the Franzens. Stood close to them a man whose name I don't know.
And finally, an unidentified couple.
The Zapruder film proves the women are not stood on the south side of Elm, meaning they are stood on the sidewalk on the north side.
In the Bronson pic below we can see those people stood on the north side. To the very left of the picture is Bill Newman stood with his wife and kids. We know from the Bell film that there is no-one else stood on the sidewalk between Bill and the underpass (there are three men on the steps leading up to the picket fence but nobody on the sidewalk).
As we move from left to right - after the Newmans there are two women, one of which I believe is Doris Mumford. Then there is a very large gap until we come to Umbrella Man and DCM. Then two college kids. Then the Chisms and then a group of five women. A red arrow points out a woman wearing a blue headscarf:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdQ56mgf/Bronson-good-close-arrow.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
There are no group of women who could possibly be Gloria and friends between Bill Newman and the woman in the blue headscarf.
Which brings us to the picture below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbppBNGR/Zapruder-Calvery2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
On the right hand side of the picture we see the woman with the blue headscarf (who was picked out with the red arrow in the Bronson pic), partially obscured by the Stemmons sign. In the group to her left we are looking for the woman with a white headscarf and dress and Gloria, wearing a black headscarf and black top. They are instantly recognisable as there is only one group of women wearing headscarves:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PTjg5LW/Zapruder-Calvery-cropped-close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Here we have Gloria Clavery and her three work colleagues, all wearing headscarves.
In the Zapruder film, the last time we see Gloria is z190.
Seconds later we see her and the woman in white at the front steps in the Darnell footage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XNLsyWP/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the cropped and cleaned section of the Roberdeau map below, Calvery's position is shown. It also shows her route back to the "corner of the park" where she met Shelley , who had run across from the front steps [at point A]. According to the scale of the map, the distance from Gloria's position to point A and then across to the steps is just shy of 140 ft. At a modest run of 6mph, she could have covered this distance in 16 seconds. Personally, I think she was moving faster .
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhwZSTwP/Roberdeau-Map-Close-Clean1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Rather than stamp their little feet, huffing and puffing, I invite the resident Nutters to counter the arguments I have made here with actual evidence and arguments of their own. Show me where you think I've gone wrong and why, rather than the usual whining "I'm right so you must be wrong" logic that pervades all their posts.
-
You're clearly having the meltdown I was worried about.
I'll try the question again:
How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?
Please take your meds and have a nap before trying to answer the question old-timer.
They contradict the timing on the first floor as you well know. Seriously, so much for being a great researcher. You have not set the bar very high. This thread was resolved on page one by the statement of Shelley. Remember where I had to redirect you back thirty or forty pages to the answer on when the first shot was fired? Same thing here except it was on page one.
-
While Jack takes a nap I'd like to have a closer look at this claim I made in an earlier post:
I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XNLsyWP/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The woman in white is dressed very distinctively, a white headscarf and dress. she appears to be linking arms with Gloria, who wears a black headscarf and black top. I believe this is the woman who was with Gloria as reported by Joe Molina:
Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
From various testimonies it is clear Gloria saw JFK's head explode so she must have been standing close enough to the limo when the headshot occurred to see it. There are a number of films taken around the moment of the assassination so it should not be too difficult to locate these two women, proving that at the moment of the headshot they were stood somewhere on Elm Street but seconds later they were on the front steps of the TSBD building.
In March of '64 the employees of the TSBD building gave statements [CE1381's] to the FBI including their whereabouts at the time of the assassination and who they were with. Gloria states that she left her office with three work colleagues to go and watch the motorcade - Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed. In their CE1381's each woman confirms she was with the other three at the time of the assassination but there is something weird about these statements that needs to be mentioned before moving on. Three of the statements - Calvery, Westbrook and Hicks' - are identical. Only Carol Reed's statement is different.
The CE1381's state that the four women were on Elm Street, about halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would make sense as the head shot occurred in this general area and Gloria has to be stood close enough to see it. However, there is a discrepancy - according to one version they are stood on the south side of Elm Street but in the other they are stood on the sidewalk, which is on the north side of Elm Street.
So, which is it, north or south?
When we watch the Zapruder film we see there is no-one on the south side of Elm Street that fits the description of these four young women. As the limo moves along we see:
Two black men clapping
The Babushka lady, Charles Brehm and his son.
Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.
Two older men in dark suits - one is Altgens and I believe the other is Bothun.
A diving Malcolm Summers
A family of three - the Franzens. Stood close to them a man whose name I don't know.
And finally, an unidentified couple.
The Zapruder film proves the women are not stood on the south side of Elm, meaning they are stood on the sidewalk on the north side.
In the Bronson pic below we can see those people stood on the north side. To the very left of the picture is Bill Newman stood with his wife and kids. We know from the Bell film that there is no-one else stood on the sidewalk between Bill and the underpass (there are three men on the steps leading up to the picket fence but nobody on the sidewalk).
As we move from left to right - after the Newmans there are two women, one of which I believe is Doris Mumford. Then there is a very large gap until we come to Umbrella Man and DCM. Then two college kids. Then the Chisms and then a group of five women. A red arrow points out a woman wearing a blue headscarf:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdQ56mgf/Bronson-good-close-arrow.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
There are no group of women who could possibly be Gloria and friends between Bill Newman and the woman in the blue headscarf.
Which brings us to the picture below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbppBNGR/Zapruder-Calvery2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
On the right hand side of the picture we see the woman with the blue headscarf (who was picked out with the red arrow in the Bronson pic), partially obscured by the Stemmons sign. In the group to her left we are looking for the woman with a white headscarf and dress and Gloria, wearing a black headscarf and black top. They are instantly recognisable as there is only one group of women wearing headscarves:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PTjg5LW/Zapruder-Calvery-cropped-close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Here we have Gloria Clavery and her three work colleagues, all wearing headscarves.
In the Zapruder film, the last time we see Gloria is z190.
Seconds later we see her and the woman in white at the front steps in the Darnell footage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XNLsyWP/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the cropped and cleaned section of the Roberdeau map below, Calvery's position is shown. It also shows her route back to the "corner of the park" where she met Shelley , who had run across from the front steps [at point A]. According to the scale of the map, the distance from Gloria's position to point A and then across to the steps is just shy of 140 ft. At a modest run of 6mph, she could have covered this distance in 16 seconds. Personally, I think she was moving faster .
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhwZSTwP/Roberdeau-Map-Close-Clean1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Rather than stamp their little feet, huffing and puffing, I invite the resident Nutters to counter the arguments I have made here with actual evidence and arguments of their own. Show me where you think I've gone wrong and why, rather than the usual whining "I'm right so you must be wrong" logic that pervades all their posts.
The 3-minute Lie. What a joke. It makes sense you would try and turn this thread into some other topic. You are really trying to distance yourself from this obvious debacle. The WC ended this story decades ago but go ahead and keep posting your own twisted interpretations. If nothing else, it is amusing.
-
This is simply not true.
The WC testimonies of both men are unequivocal - they were on the steps at the time of the shooting and didn't leave the steps until after the encounter with Gloria. It is only once they leave the steps that they see Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building. There is no other way to interpret their testimonies.
It is utterly dishonest of you to insinuate otherwise.
Perhaps you need to refresh your reading and comprehension skills Dan. Here are the excerpts you provided:
The following are excerpts from the WC testimonies of both men demonstrating, beyond any doubt, that they testify to the sequence of events I have laid out.
LOVELADY
Mr. Lovelady: ...I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. Ball: You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
So far, it is consistent with them meeting Gloria a few minutes after they crossed Elm Street where, in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them. We continue:
Mr. Ball: The top step you were standing there?
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. Lovelady: Yeah.
This too is consistent with them meeting Gloria a few minutes after they crossed Elm Street where, in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them as they were standing near each other. We continue:
Mr. Ball: When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. Lovelady: Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street...
If we were to replace the bolded "and" with a "then" and if "run towards that little, old island" means running across Elm St. then you would be correct that this is a statement that is inconsistent with meeting Gloria after crossing Elm Street. But he used the word "and" not "then" so it is ambiguous at best.
Mr. Ball: By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. Lovelady: As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.[/b]
Nothing there to say where they met Gloria C.
SHELLEY
Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Shelley: Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Again, if we were to replace the bolded "and" with a "then" and if "took off across the street to that little, old island" means running across Elm St. then you would be correct that this is a statement that is inconsistent with meeting Gloria after crossing Elm Street. But he too used the word "and" not "then" so it is ambiguous at best.
Mr. Ball: Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.[/b]
This is consistent with them seeing Truly and Baker go into the TSBD after crossing Elm but before meeting Gloria C. It was not until Mr. Ball asked this leading question that you can say that Lovelady contradicts his earlier statement.
"Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria. did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.
Do you agree with the fact that both men testify to the following sequence of events in their WC testimonies:
1] They were stood on the steps when the shooting happened.
We know this from Altgens' #6 photo and other evidence. They did not leave the steps until after the shots. The question is: how long after the shots did they leave the steps?
Firstly, this is not the first time you have made the dishonest claim that both men made earlier statements that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Gloria. Lovelady never made any such claim and it's dishonest of you to keep asserting he did.
First of all, your habit of accusing people who do not agree with you as being dishonest is not one of your endearing qualities. More to the point, it only detracts from your argument.
How do you interpret this statement of Lovelady from 22Nov63 (https://history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd/wcd_0065a.gif): "He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass."?
How do you interpret this statement of Shelley from 22Nov63 (24H226): "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot."?
And it is really bizarre to suggest that, because Shelley stated in his affidavit on the day of the assassination that he ran across Elm and met Gloria, when he completely changes his story in his WC testimony we are meant to ignore it because of his earlier statement!!
I didn't say we should ignore it. I just said that, since they were never asked to explain the contradictions we are unable to determine which statement is accurate with respect to that detail. So we cannot give any weight to the latter statement.
Shelley and Lovelady are lying about their movements after the assassination, that is what the 3 Minute Lie is part of. Shelley's change of story is yet another indication of the lies he is telling. Instead, you try to use it as a way to interpret his WC testimony in a way that suits you! Could there be a more dishonest approach to the evidence?
I don't think so.
Again, your tiresome allegations that people who disagree with you are being dishonest do not contribute to the discussion.
Shelley and Lovelady are lying about their movements after the assassination.
It's why their stories keep changing from statement to statement.
You are accusing Shelley and Lovelady as being dishonest based on speculation. Making inconsistent statements in itself is not evidence of dishonesty. Evidence of dishonesty may arise if the witness is confronted with the previous inconsistent statement and cannot give a credible explanation. Proof of dishonesty requires clear and cogent evidence of an intent to mislead. That did not occur here. You cannot determine the probability that they would have been able to innocently explain the contradiction.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimonies/statements of Baker, Truly, Adams, Styles, Garner, Molina and Pauline Sanders.
You're assertion, that Adams lied in her testimony, is based solely on the statements/testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady, two proven liars.
I never suggested, let alone said, that Adams lied in her testimony. There is a difference between knowingly uttering a falsehood and being mistaken. You don't seem to grasp that essential point.
This is good enough for you and Nutters like you but not for anyone looking honestly at this issue.
Personally, I would be ashamed at the dishonest tactics you have to resort to, but for you it seems like it's just another day at the office.
I would be ashamed if I suggested that every witness who made inconsistent statements was a liar.
-
Perhaps you need to refresh your reading and comprehension skills Dan. Here are the excerpts you provided: So far, it is consistent with them meeting Gloria a few minutes after they crossed Elm Street where, in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them. We continue:
This too is consistent with them meeting Gloria a few minutes after they crossed Elm Street where, in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them as they were standing near each other. We continue:If we were to replace the bolded "and" with a "then" and if "run towards that little, old island" means running across Elm St. then you would be correct that this is a statement that is inconsistent with meeting Gloria after crossing Elm Street. But he used the word "and" not "then" so it is ambiguous at best.
Nothing there to say where they met Gloria C.Again, if we were to replace the bolded "and" with a "then" and if "took off across the street to that little, old island" means running across Elm St. then you would be correct that this is a statement that is inconsistent with meeting Gloria after crossing Elm Street. But he too used the word "and" not "then" so it is ambiguous at best.This is consistent with them seeing Truly and Baker go into the TSBD after crossing Elm but before meeting Gloria C. It was not until Mr. Ball asked this leading question that you can say that Lovelady contradicts his earlier statement.
"Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria. did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.We know this from Altgens' #6 photo and other evidence. They did not leave the steps until after the shots. The question is: how long after the shots did they leave the steps?First of all, your habit of accusing people who do not agree with you as being dishonest is not one of your endearing qualities. More to the point, it only detracts from your argument.
How do you interpret this statement of Lovelady from 22Nov63 (https://history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd/wcd_0065a.gif): "He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass."?
How do you interpret this statement of Shelley from 22Nov63 (24H226): "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot."?
I didn't say we should ignore it. I just said that, since they were never asked to explain the contradictions we are unable to determine which statement is accurate with respect to that detail. So we cannot give any weight to the latter statement.Again, your tiresome allegations that people who disagree with you are being dishonest do not contribute to the discussion.
You are accusing Shelley and Lovelady as being dishonest based on speculation. Making inconsistent statements in itself is not evidence of dishonesty. Evidence of dishonesty may arise if the witness is confronted with the previous inconsistent statement and cannot give a credible explanation. Proof of dishonesty requires clear and cogent evidence of an intent to mislead. That did not occur here. You cannot determine the probability that they would have been able to innocently explain the contradiction. I never suggested, let alone said, that Adams lied in her testimony. There is a difference between knowingly uttering a falsehood and being mistaken. You don't seem to grasp that essential point.I would be ashamed if I suggested that every witness who made inconsistent statements was a liar.
Your dishonesty knows no bounds.
Before his WC testimony Lovelady NEVER claims that he ran across Elm Street and met Gloria there.
This is staggering dishonesty on your behalf to constantly assert he did and it's mind-blowing you are continuing with this falsehood when you've been caught out.
I'm well aware Shelley claims that after the shots he runs across the Elm Street extension and meets Gloria coming the other way. He then returns to the steps and re-enters the building. At no point does he mention Lovelady came with him. He refers only to himself going over.
In his affidavit Lovelady never even leaves the front steps!
After that we have Lovelady's FBI statement that has them both running down to the area where the limo slowed down. Not the railroad yard.
Then there's Shelley's FBI statement that both men accompanied officers down to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes.
Constantly changing movements and timings.
But NEVER does Lovelady state he ran across Elm Street and met Gloria away from the steps.
Am I calling it dishonest because you don't agree with me?
Not at all, I relish that debate.
I'm calling it dishonest because that is exactly what it is.
I challenge you to either produce the document that contains this earlier claim that Lovelady met Gloria away from the steps [at which point I will apologise to you] or own up to your dishonesty in front of the forum.
Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY: Yes.
Explain this exchange in Shelley's WC testimony.
Your dishonest attempt to change the sequence of events that both men testified to is recorded.
You really should be ashamed.
-
Your dishonesty knows no bounds.
Your misuse of the term "dishonesty" is an unfortunate part of your discussions that does nothing to enhance the points you think you are making. Either you do not understand the meaning of the term "dishonest" or you do not understand the evidence required to establish dishonesty.
Before his WC testimony Lovelady NEVER claims that he ran across Elm Street and met Gloria there.
This is staggering dishonesty on your behalf to constantly assert he did and it's mind-blowing you are continuing with this falsehood when you've been caught out.
He is reported to have said in his 22Nov63 FBI statement which can be viewed here (https://history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd/wcd_0065a.gif) is: "He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.". Perhaps you are thinking that there was some way for them to run toward the Presidential car while remaining standing on the front steps of the TSBD. I may have missed it but I didn't see a running treadmill on the front steps. He doesn't say he met Gloria C. at any time but he could not have met her before he ran towards the President's car. Gloria C. could not have been on the steps immediately after the shots before the President's car had disappeared under the Triple underpass.
I'm well aware Shelley claims that after the shots he runs across the Elm Street extension and meets Gloria coming the other way. He then returns to the steps and re-enters the building. At no point does he mention Lovelady came with him. He refers only to himself going over.
Au contraire. Shelley said in his FBI statement (22H673): "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building...". Are we to assume you were not aware of this statement when you suggested that "at no point does he mention that Lovelady came with him"?
In his affidavit Lovelady never even leaves the front steps!
You really aren't serious are you? How can they both run toward the President's car and still remain standing on the front steps?
After that we have Lovelady's FBI statement that has them both running down to the area where the limo slowed down. Not the railroad yard.
Then there's Shelley's FBI statement that both men accompanied officers down to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes.
Constantly changing movements and timings.
But NEVER does Lovelady state he ran across Elm Street and met Gloria away from the steps.
I challenge you to either produce the document that contains this earlier claim that Lovelady met Gloria away from the steps [at which point I will apologise to you] or own up to your dishonesty in front of the forum.
Lovelady never mentions meeting Gloria Calvery at all in any of his earlier statements, although he does acknowledge meeting Gloria C in his WC testimony. So we can conclude that he met Gloria C. somewhere. The question is where? Shelley says that he met Gloria C. in his first statement (http://first statement)but does not mention that Lovelady was with him. But Lovelady did say that Shelley was with him when they ran from the steps and he says that after the shots he and Shelley immediately started running toward the President's car. Gloria C is seen in the Zfilm between the Thornton and Stemmons signs.
So, having a brain, we can put the statements and the zfilm together and conclude that their initial statements are inconsistent with meeting Gloria C. on the steps before they ran from the steps.
Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
This passage was not included in the passage you asked me to comment on.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY: Yes.[/b]
A rather leading question, don't you think? So it is not given much weight. Since it conflicts completely with what he had said in his earlier statements, we can't determine what his real recollection was unless the previous statement is put to him. It wasn't.
-
Your misuse of the term "dishonesty" is an unfortunate part of your discussions that does nothing to enhance the points you think you are making. Either you do not understand the meaning of the term "dishonest" or you do not understand the evidence required to establish dishonesty.He is reported to have said in his 22Nov63 FBI statement which can be viewed here (https://history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd/wcd_0065a.gif) is: "He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.". Perhaps you are thinking that there was some way for them to run toward the Presidential car while remaining standing on the front steps of the TSBD. I may have missed it but I didn't see a running treadmill on the front steps. He doesn't say he met Gloria C. at any time but he could not have met her before he ran towards the President's car. Gloria C. could not have been on the steps immediately after the shots before the President's car had disappeared under the Triple underpass.Au contraire. Shelley said in his FBI statement (22H673): "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building...". Are we to assume you were not aware of this statement when you suggested that "at no point does he mention that Lovelady came with him"? You really aren't serious are you? How can they both run toward the President's car and still remain standing on the front steps?Lovelady never mentions meeting Gloria Calvery at all in any of his earlier statements, although he does acknowledge meeting Gloria C in his WC testimony. So we can conclude that he met Gloria C. somewhere. The question is where? Shelley says that he met Gloria C. in his first statement (http://first statement)but does not mention that Lovelady was with him. But Lovelady did say that Shelley was with him when they ran from the steps and he says that after the shots he and Shelley immediately started running toward the President's car. Gloria C is seen in the Zfilm between the Thornton and Stemmons signs.
So, having a brain, we can put the statements and the zfilm together and conclude that their initial statements are inconsistent with meeting Gloria C. on the steps before they ran from the steps.
This passage was not included in the passage you asked me to comment on.A rather leading question, don't you think? So it is not given much weight. Since it conflicts completely with what he had said in his earlier statements, we can't determine what his real recollection was unless the previous statement is put to him. It wasn't.
He doesn't say he met Gloria C. at any time but he could not have met her before he ran towards the President's car.
And finally, here we have it - the admission that Lovelady never mentioned seeing Gloria before his WC testimony in any statement. Time and time again making the claim he did, but knowing full well he hadn't:
Reply#18
"They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was coming toward them from farther down Elm."
Reply#33
"...were it not for their earlier statements where they made it clear that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Calvery."
Reply#40
"...in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them."
Reply#40
"...in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them as they were standing near each other."
Is this dishonesty?
Do I understand what dishonesty is?
Or should the question be - do you know what "dishonest" means?
I posted:
"I'm well aware Shelley claims that after the shots he runs across the Elm Street extension and meets Gloria coming the other way. He then returns to the steps and re-enters the building. At no point does he mention Lovelady came with him. He refers only to himself going over."
To which you responded:
"Au contraire. Shelley said in his FBI statement (22H673): "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building...". Are we to assume you were not aware of this statement when you suggested that "at no point does he mention that Lovelady came with him"? "
Au contraire?
Really?
Here's a link to Shelley's affidavit, a document you are clearly unfamiliar with - https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/m1/1/
Here is the relevant excerpt from it:
"I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the President in the parade...when I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot...I went back to the building and went inside."
I ran across the street...
I went back to the building...
No mention of Lovelady being with him. As far as his affidavit is concerned he went alone and, as we shall see, this is corroborated by Lovelady's affidavit.
I posted:
"In his affidavit Lovelady never even leaves the front steps!"
To which you responded:
"You really aren't serious are you? How can they both run toward the President's car and still remain standing on the front steps?"
Yes Andrew...I am being serious.
Here's a link to Lovelady's affidavit, another document you are clearly unfamiliar with - https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338698/
Here's the relevant excerpts from his affidavit:
"I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work...I heard three shots...After it was over we went back into the building."
That is the sum total of Lovelady's recollection of his movements in his first statement to the police a couple of hours after the assassination.
According to their affidavits, after the shots Shelley ran across Elm, encountered Gloria and came back to the steps. Both men then re-entered the building.
And that's that.
And it is the only truthful account of their movements.
And this is how Vicki Adams not only witnessed them towards the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination, she called out to them.
Then come the lies.
First is Lovelady's FBI statement about how "immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass."
It's obviously a lie because it's impossible.
Both men were on the steps when all three shots were fired. How could they then run towards the limo and see it speed away?
If the headshot was the last shot, which isn't necessarily the case, but if it were the limo sped away instantly after it was fired so how could they see it speed away.
In his FBI statement of March 19th '64, Lovelady exacerbates he lie when he states "I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes..."
So Lovelady has them both running towards the spot where the limo stopped, seeing the limo speeding away and staying in that area for about 5 minutes. Meanwhile, Shelley is telling a completely different story - "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Nolan and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
Ten minutes?
At the railroad yards?
What happened to five minutes in the area where the limo stopped?
They get their heads together and the lie they finally settle on is a version on Shelley's FBI statement for their WC testimony.
And let's not forget Lovelady's HSCA statement where he said he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20 to 25 minutes after the shooting!!
You were asked to explain this part of Shelley's WC testimony where he is unequivocally clear that he was still on the steps when Gloria ran up there:
Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY: Yes.
Obviously you tried to side-step it in your usual honest way.
And as for Ball's "leading question",
As you are well aware, earlier in his testimony, Ball asked where Shelley was during the shooting to which Shelley replied, "just outside the glass doors". After the shots Shelley is asked what happened next:
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
When he says Gloria ran "back up there", he is referring to his position on the steps. After the encounter he and Lovelady "took off across the street."
Ball is simply clarifying that Shelley was still on the steps when Gloria came running up and Shelley confirms this was the case.
In reality, Shelley had run across the Elm Street extension where he encountered Gloria and followed her back to the steps as she told everyone there about the shooting.
But in their WC testimonies there can be zero doubt that both men are saying they were on the steps when Gloria came running up, after which they took off across the Elm Street extension at which point they turned round and saw Truly and Baker still outside the building over three minutes after the shooting
It must be remembered that Shelley repeated this lie to Patricia and George Nash, as reported in their October '64 article "The Other Witnesses":
"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered five or six minutes after the shooting."
The 3 Minute Lie is a co-ordinated and repeated lie.
It is proven a lie by the Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimonies/statements of Adams, Truly, Baker, Molina and Sanders, not to mention the constantly changing, contradictory and, at times, impossible statements Shelley and Lovelady make regarding their movements.
It's sole purpose is to disguise the real movements of Shelley and Lovelady immediately after the assassination.
The reality of these movements were given away in their original statements - after the shooting Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension, met Gloria, came back to the steps from where Lovelady hadn't moved, and both men re-entered the building. Seconds later Adams sees them on the first floor as she and Styles run from the stairs and exit through the back door. Seconds after that Truly and Baker arrive in the same area and Baker reports seeing two white men, who can only be Shelley and Lovelady, hanging around that area.
-
He doesn't say he met Gloria C. at any time but he could not have met her before he ran towards the President's car.
And finally, here we have it - the admission that Lovelady never mentioned seeing Gloria before his WC testimony in any statement. Time and time again making the claim he did, but knowing full well he hadn't:
Reply#18
"They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was coming toward them from farther down Elm."
Reply#33
"...were it not for their earlier statements where they made it clear that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Calvery."
Reply#40
"...in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them."
Reply#40
"...in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them as they were standing near each other."
Is this dishonesty?
Do I understand what dishonesty is?
Or should the question be - do you know what "dishonest" means?
I was referring to what what Lovelady and Shelley together said. So long as they don't contradict each other there is nothing dishonest or misleading about referring to what they said in their statements. If I had said "each said they met Gloria" and only one had said that then I would have been incorrect. That would have been careless of me. But I didn't. When you asked me specifically what just Lovelady said I reviewed all his statements prior to his WC testimony and acknowledged that he had not - just in his WC testimony. Lovelady's failure to mention that he met Gloria Calvery doesn't mean he didn't meet her so it doesn't make it inconsistent with Shelly's statement
I posted:
"I'm well aware Shelley claims that after the shots he runs across the Elm Street extension and meets Gloria coming the other way. He then returns to the steps and re-enters the building. At no point does he mention Lovelady came with him. He refers only to himself going over."
To which you responded:
"Au contraire. Shelley said in his FBI statement (22H673): "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building...". Are we to assume you were not aware of this statement when you suggested that "at no point does he mention that Lovelady came with him"? "
Au contraire?
Really?
Here's a link to Shelley's affidavit, a document you are clearly unfamiliar with - https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/m1/1/
Not only am I familiar with it, I have referred to it. It is the only prior statement either he or Lovelady made in which Gloria Calvery is mentioned. BTW, the witness statements of all the witnesses in Dealey Plaza are conveniently compiled by Stuart Galanor here (https://history-matters.com/analysis/witness/index.htm).
Here is the relevant excerpt from it:
"I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the President in the parade...when I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot...I went back to the building and went inside."
I ran across the street...
I went back to the building...
No mention of Lovelady being with him. As far as his affidavit is concerned he went alone and, as we shall see, this is corroborated by Lovelady's affidavit.
That is correct. But that is not the only statement he made before giving his WC testimony. That is why I quoted from his earlier FBI statement at 22H673 in which he mentions Lovelady being with him.
I posted:
"In his affidavit Lovelady never even leaves the front steps!"
To which you responded:
"You really aren't serious are you? How can they both run toward the President's car and still remain standing on the front steps?"
Yes Andrew...I am being serious.
Here's a link to Lovelady's affidavit, another document you are clearly unfamiliar with - https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338698/
Here's the relevant excerpts from his affidavit:
"I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work...I heard three shots...After it was over we went back into the building."
That is the sum total of Lovelady's recollection of his movements in his first statement to the police a couple of hours after the assassination.
What makes you think that that is all he recalled? Does it say "I don't recall any other details at all"? The statement was written up by the Dallas police. They were very busy that day. Lovelady may not have mentioned meeting Gloria Calvery or seeing Truly walk into the building or going down to the railroad yard or going in the back door etc. Or the police officer taking the statement may not have thought those details were needed to be in the statement. Statements are often taken for a particular purpose. In that case, it appears they were particularly interested in what he heard - the number of shots and where he thought they came from. I can guarantee you that their purpose was not to determine where he may have encountered Gloria Calvery.
According to their affidavits, after the shots Shelley ran across Elm, encountered Gloria and came back to the steps. Both men then re-entered the building.
And that's that.
And it is the only truthful account of their movements.
And this is how Vicki Adams not only witnessed them towards the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination, she called out to them.
Then come the lies.
First is Lovelady's FBI statement about how "immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass."
It's obviously a lie because it's impossible.
Both men were on the steps when all three shots were fired. How could they then run towards the limo and see it speed away?
If the headshot was the last shot, which isn't necessarily the case, but if it were the limo sped away instantly after it was fired so how could they see it speed away.
In his FBI statement of March 19th '64, Lovelady exacerbates he lie when he states "I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes..."
So Lovelady has them both running towards the spot where the limo stopped, seeing the limo speeding away and staying in that area for about 5 minutes. Meanwhile, Shelley is telling a completely different story - "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Nolan and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
Ten minutes?
At the railroad yards?
What happened to five minutes in the area where the limo stopped?
They get their heads together and the lie they finally settle on is a version on Shelley's FBI statement for their WC testimony.
And let's not forget Lovelady's HSCA statement where he said he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20 to 25 minutes after the shooting!!
That's your theory. I just don't find it to be the least bit persuasive. It does not fit the evidence provided by others or provided in their earlier statements.
You were asked to explain this part of Shelley's WC testimony where he is unequivocally clear that he was still on the steps when Gloria ran up there:
Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY: Yes.
No explaining necessary. It says what it says. He was confused, possibly by Ball, about when he saw Truly and Baker running into the TSBD, possibly because both events occurred after they ran across Elm St. immediately after the shots.
Obviously you tried to side-step it in your usual honest way.
And as for Ball's "leading question",
As you are well aware, earlier in his testimony, Ball asked where Shelley was during the shooting to which Shelley replied, "just outside the glass doors". After the shots Shelley is asked what happened next:
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
When he says Gloria ran "back up there", he is referring to his position on the steps. After the encounter he and Lovelady "took off across the street."
Ball is simply clarifying that Shelley was still on the steps when Gloria came running up and Shelley confirms this was the case.
In reality, Shelley had run across the Elm Street extension where he encountered Gloria and followed her back to the steps as she told everyone there about the shooting.
But in their WC testimonies there can be zero doubt that both men are saying they were on the steps when Gloria came running up, after which they took off across the Elm Street extension at which point they turned round and saw Truly and Baker still outside the building over three minutes after the shooting
It must be remembered that Shelley repeated this lie to Patricia and George Nash, as reported in their October '64 article "The Other Witnesses":
"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered five or six minutes after the shooting."
The 3 Minute Lie is a co-ordinated and repeated lie.
It is proven a lie by the Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimonies/statements of Adams, Truly, Baker, Molina and Sanders, not to mention the constantly changing, contradictory and, at times, impossible statements Shelley and Lovelady make regarding their movements.
It's sole purpose is to disguise the real movements of Shelley and Lovelady immediately after the assassination.
The reality of these movements were given away in their original statements - after the shooting Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension, met Gloria, came back to the steps from where Lovelady hadn't moved, and both men re-entered the building. Seconds later Adams sees them on the first floor as she and Styles run from the stairs and exit through the back door. Seconds after that Truly and Baker arrive in the same area and Baker reports seeing two white men, who can only be Shelley and Lovelady, hanging around that area.
I disagree with your assessment of Shelley and Lovelady as deliberately lying. I would need some clear and cogent evidence that they had any intent to mislead the Warren Commission. Witnesses change their stories all the time. That is why we have statements taken as early as possible. If a witness later gives testimony that is inconsistent with their earlier statement they can either be corrected. If they insist their memories are better 6 months after the events the judge or jury will take that into account in assessing their credibility.
-
I was referring to what what Lovelady and Shelley together said. So long as they don't contradict each other there is nothing dishonest or misleading about referring to what they said in their statements. If I had said "each said they met Gloria" and only one had said that then I would have been incorrect. That would have been careless of me. But I didn't. When you asked me specifically what just Lovelady said I reviewed all his statements prior to his WC testimony and acknowledged that he had not - just in his WC testimony. Lovelady's failure to mention that he met Gloria Calvery doesn't mean he didn't meet her so it doesn't make it inconsistent with Shelly's statement
This is just utter nonsense.
You made multiple claims that from their earliest statements Lovelady and Shelley were saying they had met Gloria after they crossed Elm Street.
This is categorically untrue.
I called you out on it and then (and only then) you reviewed all Lovelady's statements and acknowledged you were incorrect to state otherwise.
At no point did Lovelady ever say he met Gloria after leaving the steps before his WC testimony.
You were wrong to make the statements I have highlighted. They were untruthful statements.
If you're saying it wasn't dishonesty because you didn't really know what you were talking about, that's fair enough. I accept that.
But just say that rather than this nonsense.
That is correct. But that is not the only statement he made before giving his WC testimony. That is why I quoted from his earlier FBI statement at 22H673 in which he mentions Lovelady being with him.What makes you think that that is all he recalled? Does it say "I don't recall any other details at all"? The statement was written up by the Dallas police. They were very busy that day. Lovelady may not have mentioned meeting Gloria Calvery or seeing Truly walk into the building or going down to the railroad yard or going in the back door etc. Or the police officer taking the statement may not have thought those details were needed to be in the statement. Statements are often taken for a particular purpose. In that case, it appears they were particularly interested in what he heard - the number of shots and where he thought they came from. I can guarantee you that their purpose was not to determine where he may have encountered Gloria Calvery.
One minute you're on about the importance of the first statements after an event but now, when it doesn't suit you, these first statements mean nothing.
The purpose of the affidavits was to find out what these men did and saw around the time of the assassination.
Shelley ran across Elm Street, met Gloria, came back to the steps and re-entered the building.
Lovelady never left the steps and re-entered the building.
This is what they said they did within two hours of the event.
Your, argument - that these men meant to say the things you want them to say - is really lame.
You like to use Lovelady's FBI statement but it is noteworthy that you skip over the physical impossibility of this statement.
How very convenient.
That's your theory. I just don't find it to be the least bit persuasive. It does not fit the evidence provided by others or provided in their earlier statements.
No explaining necessary.
It does not fit the evidence provided by others...
By "others" you mean Shelley and Lovelady. You don't mean anyone else.
So, here your argument is - Shelley and Lovelady can't be liars because their testimony/statements say otherwise.
How lame is that?
It says what it says. He was confused, possibly by Ball, about when he saw Truly and Baker running into the TSBD, possibly because both events occurred after they ran across Elm St. immediately after the shots.
I agree Andrew, this section of his testimony does say what it says - Q: Were you on the steps when Gloria ran up to you? A: Yes!
But then you treat us to what really happened. That Shelley was confused even though he told exactly the same lie to George and Patricia Nash (you forgot about that, didn't you?). Shelley was confused and by some million-to-one shot told exactly the same lie Lovelady did about how long it was before Truly and Baker entered the building.
Yet another unbelievably lame "argument".
I disagree with your assessment of Shelley and Lovelady as deliberately lying. I would need some clear and cogent evidence that they had any intent to mislead the Warren Commission. Witnesses change their stories all the time. That is why we have statements taken as early as possible. If a witness later gives testimony that is inconsistent with their earlier statement they can either be corrected. If they insist their memories are better 6 months after the events the judge or jury will take that into account in assessing their credibility.
I'm glad you disagree Andrew.
There could hardly be greater validation of the arguments I'm presenting.
-
This is just utter nonsense.
You made multiple claims that from their earliest statements Lovelady and Shelley were saying they had met Gloria after they crossed Elm Street.
How can you interpret what they said before giving their WC testimony as being consistent with meeting Gloria Calvery on the steps? Here is what they said they did after the shots:
Shelley:
24H226: "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This Girl's name is Gloria Calvery."
22H673: "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
Lovelady:
CD205 FBI 22Nov63: "He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building."
The statements mention different things. Yet each said that immediately after the shots they did things that are inconsistent with remaining on the steps and meeting Gloria Calvery coming back to the TSBD.
One minute you're on about the importance of the first statements after an event but now, when it doesn't suit you, these first statements mean nothing.
The purpose of the affidavits was to find out what these men did and saw around the time of the assassination.
Shelley ran across Elm Street, met Gloria, came back to the steps and re-entered the building.
Lovelady never left the steps and re-entered the building.
You have yet to tackle Lovelady's FBI statement. How did they start running towards the President's car and not leave the front steps of the TSBD?
I'm glad you disagree Andrew.
There could hardly be greater validation of the arguments I'm presenting.
Pure speculation that they knowingly uttered statements that they knew to be false at the time they uttered them. Speculation appears to be good enough for you to call someone dishonest.
-
How can you interpret what they said before giving their WC testimony as being consistent with meeting Gloria Calvery on the steps? Here is what they said they did after the shots:
Shelley:
24H226: "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This Girl's name is Gloria Calvery."
22H673: "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
Lovelady:
CD205 FBI 22Nov63: "He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building."
The statements mention different things. Yet each said that immediately after the shots they did things that are inconsistent with remaining on the steps and meeting Gloria Calvery coming back to the TSBD.
What part of 'they lied about their movements after the assassination' are you not getting?
The only time they were truthful were their very first statements, their affidavits.
They were both on the steps when the shots rang out, Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension where he met Gloria coming the other way. Shelley returned to the steps and re-entered the building with Lovelady, who never left the steps.
They both then made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting. Seconds later Truly and Baker show up in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around.
What, about this scenario, are you having a problem with.
Lovelady never mentions going across Elm Street and meeting Gloria.
Lovelady lied when he said he and Shelley went to where the limo slowed down and stayed in that area for five minutes.
Shelley lied when he said he and Lovelady accompanied police officers to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes.
Shelley lied in his WC testimony when he said he was on the steps when Gloria came running up.
Both men lied when they said it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to arrive.
Shelley lied to George and Patricia Nash when he said Truly and Baker didn't enter the building for five or six minutes.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said that after they left the steps they turned around and saw Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building at least 3 minutes after the assassination.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said they went to the railroad yards.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said they re-entered the building through the west door.
Lovelady lied in his HSCA statement when he said he didn't re-enter the building for 20 to 25 minutes.
LOVELADY NEVER LEFT THE STEPS.
BOTH MEN RE-ENTERED THE FRONT DOOR AROUND THE SAME TIME BAKER ARRIVES IN THE LOBBY.
ADAMS SAW BOTH MEN LESS THAN 60 SECONDS AFTER THE SHOOTING.
This scenario is supported by the following evidence:
1] The Darnell footage
2] The Truly/Baker time trials
3] The Dillard Picture
4] The Stroud document
5] The testimonies/statements of Adams, Styles, Garner, Truly, Baker, Molina and Sanders
The only evidence against it are the lies of Shelley and Lovelady.
-
If that’s Lovelady moving away from the TSBD steps in the Darnell film segment capturing Baker running then that’s approx 20 -25 secs post shots.
That may be Shelley walking along side Lovelady. If it’s Danny Arce then that’s makes Shelley’s story of walking with Lovelady suspect.
(Note see that Gerda Dunckel GIF enlargement)
The Dillard photo of the TSBD was approx 10 sec post shots and there’s no persons visible at the one open window of the 4th floor office. So that’s an indication (imo )that Adams estimate of she and Stiles (A/S)leaving the 4th floor office window and reaching the ground floor by 60 seconds post shots accurate.
So then it’s a question if Lovelady and Shelley could have returned to the rear loading dock annex building of TSBD via the west door by 60 secs post shots and there was a brief encounter as L/S were entering the west door and A/S were just exiting the rollup door beside the west rear elevator.
That would be an encounter of the 2 parties in passing inside the annex building thus might not have been in the LOS of Baker/Truly from their position at that 60 sec post shot interval still working their way thru the desktop counter (by Trulys office) on the ground floor and not yet starting their diagonal trek across the floor towards the rear elevators.
Imo, it would have to be the case if Lovelady and Shelley were in place in time by the rear elevators by approx 65 sec post shots to have been instructed by Truly to guard those elevators just before Truly and Baker start their ascent up the rear staircases at approx 75 sec post shots.
But if the above sequence is correct, then there is no way that it took Lovelady and Shelley 3 minutes before they returned into TSBD because then how could Lovelady have been told by Truly to guard the elevators BEFORE Truly and Baker went up the rear stairs?
The only other time that Truly could have spoken to Lovelady would be about 8-10 minutes post shots after Truly and Baker leave the rooftop of TSBD and take the east elevator back down the 4th floor where they stopped and met Sawyer.
-
What part of 'they lied about their movements after the assassination' are you not getting?
The only time they were truthful were their very first statements, their affidavits.
They were both on the steps when the shots rang out, Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension where he met Gloria coming the other way. Shelley returned to the steps and re-entered the building with Lovelady, who never left the steps.
They both then made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting. Seconds later Truly and Baker show up in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around.
What, about this scenario, are you having a problem with.
Lovelady never mentions going across Elm Street and meeting Gloria.
Lovelady lied when he said he and Shelley went to where the limo slowed down and stayed in that area for five minutes.
Shelley lied when he said he and Lovelady accompanied police officers to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes.
Shelley lied in his WC testimony when he said he was on the steps when Gloria came running up.
Both men lied when they said it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to arrive.
Shelley lied to George and Patricia Nash when he said Truly and Baker didn't enter the building for five or six minutes.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said that after they left the steps they turned around and saw Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building at least 3 minutes after the assassination.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said they went to the railroad yards.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said they re-entered the building through the west door.
Lovelady lied in his HSCA statement when he said he didn't re-enter the building for 20 to 25 minutes.
LOVELADY NEVER LEFT THE STEPS.
BOTH MEN RE-ENTERED THE FRONT DOOR AROUND THE SAME TIME BAKER ARRIVES IN THE LOBBY.
ADAMS SAW BOTH MEN LESS THAN 60 SECONDS AFTER THE SHOOTING.
This scenario is supported by the following evidence:
1] The Darnell footage
2] The Truly/Baker time trials
3] The Dillard Picture
4] The Stroud document
5] The testimonies/statements of Adams, Styles, Garner, Truly, Baker, Molina and Sanders
The only evidence against it are the lies of Shelley and Lovelady.
They both then made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting. Seconds later Truly and Baker show up in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around.
What, about this scenario, are you having a problem with.
The timing doesn't work. Both with Shelley and Lovelady and the officers surrounding the building.
Your calculations place Adams and Styles on the first floor and going out the back at 35 seconds post shot. Shelley, Lovelady, Baker, and Truly by your estimation are still on the front steps. How does that work? How can they be in two places at the same time?
Dan O--"So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):
8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.
A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of less than 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators."
The officer time stamps also prove the early departure of Adams and Styles is just wrong. Exactly again why do you think this is possible? It is all based on the thought or lack of thought that Shelley and Lovelady deliberately mislead everyone to discredit Adams and Styles, really?
-
They both then made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting. Seconds later Truly and Baker show up in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around.
What, about this scenario, are you having a problem with.
The timing doesn't work. Both with Shelley and Lovelady and the officers surrounding the building.
Your calculations place Adams and Styles on the first floor and going out the back at 35 seconds post shot. Shelley, Lovelady, Baker, and Truly by your estimation are still on the front steps. How does that work? How can they be in two places at the same time?
Dan O--"So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):
8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.
A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of less than 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators."
The officer time stamps also prove the early departure of Adams and Styles is just wrong. Exactly again why do you think this is possible? It is all based on the thought or lack of thought that Shelley and Lovelady deliberately mislead everyone to discredit Adams and Styles, really?
Perhaps you could direct us to the statement or testimony of Shelley or Lovelady or anyone else who says that immediately after the shots they both ran into the TSBD and crossed the first floor.
-
Perhaps you could direct us to the statement or testimony of Shelley or Lovelady or anyone else who says that immediately after the shots they both ran into the TSBD and crossed the first floor.
They do not. This whole thing is just Dan's pipe dream. No part of it is reality.
-
They both then made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting. Seconds later Truly and Baker show up in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around.
What, about this scenario, are you having a problem with.
The timing doesn't work. Both with Shelley and Lovelady and the officers surrounding the building.
Your calculations place Adams and Styles on the first floor and going out the back at 35 seconds post shot. Shelley, Lovelady, Baker, and Truly by your estimation are still on the front steps. How does that work? How can they be in two places at the same time?
Dan O--"So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):
8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.
A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of less than 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators."
The officer time stamps also prove the early departure of Adams and Styles is just wrong. Exactly again why do you think this is possible? It is all based on the thought or lack of thought that Shelley and Lovelady deliberately mislead everyone to discredit Adams and Styles, really?
The various timings of people's actual movements in the seconds after the assassination is at the heart of the theory I'm presenting.
Apart from their affidavits, Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination. This has been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt.
But what were their actual movements?
Your calculations place Adams and Styles on the first floor and going out the back at 35 seconds post shot. Shelley, Lovelady, Baker, and Truly by your estimation are still on the front steps. How does that work? How can they be in two places at the same time?
How can Shelley and Lovelady be on the front steps and at the back of the first floor at the same time?
How can Shelley and Lovelady reach the area towards the back of the first floor before Truly and Baker get there? Particularly if Baker enters the building before Shelley and Lovelady.
How can Adams and Styles get down to the first floor and out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive on the scene?
These are questions that emanate from Jack's post and they have to be addressed.
Firstly, I'd like to clarify a few details with the post:
"Your calculations place Adams and Styles on the first floor and going out the back at 35 seconds post shot."
The "calculations" you are referring to were done in Reply#362 [page 46] of the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread.
The point of the calculations were to establish how quickly Adams and Styles could have made it down to the first floor after the last shot. The post starts with these words:
"While the Nutters choke on their own BS:, let's do a thought experiment.
How fast could Adams and Styles have feasibly made it down to the first floor?
And remember Nutters, this is only a thought experiment."
As I make clear, the purpose of the thought experiment was to establish the fastest feasible time for Adams and Styles to get down to the first floor from the fourth floor window after the last shot. It worked out around 35 seconds.
The point is, I am NOT saying that this was the time it was done in - I am saying it was possible to do it that quickly.
Shelley, Lovelady, Baker, and Truly by your estimation are still on the front steps.
I am unaware of making the estimation Jack is talking about here.
Jack appears to be implying that somewhere I've estimated that all these men were still on the steps around 35 seconds after the shooting.
This is not true but I understand the point he is making and, as I say, it needs to be addressed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Above is a still from the Darnell footage.
It shows Baker arriving at the area in front of the TSBD steps. He has just passed Truly, who is facing the other way. He is about to pass Shelley who has just returned from across the Elm Street extension, where he ran into Gloria Calvery coming the other way.
Gloria has also ran back to the steps and is telling those at the steps, including Lovelady, about the shooting. This moment is recounted by Frazier who is stood at the top of the steps looking on.
The question is - how long after the last shot is this Darnell still taken?
Elsewhere I have approximated 20 - 25 seconds, but I'm not really sure. It would help to get a precise figure for this.
So, in our imagination, let's try to run this Darnell image forward and determine how it might look.
According to Molina, Truly arrived in the building 20 - 30 seconds after the shots.
According to Sanders she saw a cop with a white round helmet pass her position on the stairs about 10 seconds after the shooting.
Both witnesses are emphasising how quickly these men got up the steps.
The time trials with Truly and Baker had them entering the building within seconds.
When we look at the image above we can imagine Baker reaching the steps and making his way up to the front door. Truly would have to turn around and then make his way up the same steps, passing Shelley and Lovelady, and into the lobby.
For Vicki Adams to see Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor less than 60 seconds after the last shot, it must be the case that, at the same moment as Truly is making his way towards the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady also make their way into the lobby.
Baker alludes to this when he says:"As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered."
In the lobby Baker is asking where the stairs and elevators are. At this point Truly comes up to him and they have a brief conversation.
While Baker is trying to get his bearings and is talking to Truly, Shelley and Lovelady make their way through the lobby into the main part of the first floor (for some reason this really blows Jack's mind, that Shelley and Lovelady could walk through the lobby while Baker was trying to find his bearings and is talking to Truly).
Shelley and Lovelady simply walk by Baker as he is stood in the lobby.
From here Shelley and Lovelady make their way towards the back of the first floor. As they are doing so, Adams and Styles come racing by, Adams shouting out to them about the President.
Adams and Styles cross the space from the stairs to the back door in around 5 seconds.
Seconds later Truly and Baker arrive in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men who can only be Shelley and Lovelady.
This is the scenario determined by the Darnell footage, the Baker/Truly time trials and the testimony of Vicki Adams. It is represented in the diagram below.
The red line shows the route Adams and Styles took when they reached the first floor.
The red star is the area they encountered the police officer.
The red circle is the area Shelley and Lovelady are stood when Adams calls out to them.
We know Shelley and Lovelady were on the front steps when the shooting occurred (the blue circle). After Shelley returns from across the Elm Street extension it is from this general area they make their way to the back of the first floor. The blue line is an approximation of their route.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqYYRnpH/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Below is my first attempt at a timeline for these first critical seconds. It goes without saying that this is an exercise in SPECULATION.
It starts after the headshot (which marks 0 seconds)
0 - 10 seconds: The limo speeds towards the underpass. Baker sees pigeons fly off the roof and decides to head for the TSBD building. Adams turns to Styles and tells her she wants to find out what's going on. They begin their race downstairs. Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension.
10 - 20 seconds: Dillard takes his pic of the empty 4th floor window. Shelley meets Gloria on the concrete 'spur' that divides the two Elm Streets, and they both head for the TSBD steps. Baker pulls up next to the concrete 'spur'. Adams and Styles are on the stairs.
20 -30 seconds: Baker runs across the Elm Street extension and into the lobby. He is followed into the lobby by Shelley, Lovelady and Truly. Shelley and Lovelady pass through the lobby. Adams and Styles are still on the stairs.
30 - 40 seconds: Baker and Truly talk in the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady make their way towards the back of the first floor. Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, interact with Shelley and Lovelady and exit the back door. Baker and Truly enter the main part of the first floor.
40 - 50 seconds: Adams and Styles make their way to the stairs by the Houston Street dock and run north, turning west towards the railroad yards. Baker and Truly arrive at the elevators. Baker sees Shelley and Lovelady in that area. Truly calls up for the elevator to come down.
50 - 60 seconds: Adams and Styles run into a police officer, "two yards" from the rail tracks, who tells them to go back. Baker and Truly wait for the elevator to come down.
60 - 70 seconds: Adams and Styles ignore the police officer and begin to make their way around the west side of the building to the Elm Street extension. Truly and Baker decide to abandon the elevators and head up the stairs.
70 - 80 seconds: Adams and Styles are still making their way around the west side of the building. Truly and Baker get to the second floor. Baker sees movement through the 'vestibule' door and decides to investigate.
The officer time stamps also prove the early departure of Adams and Styles is just wrong.
It is so irritating, to have to deal with the same falsehood over and over again.
THERE IS NO TIME STAMP OR STATEMENT BY ANY OFFICER THAT REFUTES ADAMS' INSISTENCE THAT SHE LEFT WITHIN SECONDS OF THE LAST SHOT.
Jack fantasises that the officer Adams encountered as she made her way around the building is Harkness.
There is not a single scrap of evidence to support this, it is completely Jack's fantasy but, because he believes it so much he thinks it's a fact.
How he has dragged Sawyer into this fantasy is anybody's guess, even as part of his fantasy it makes no sense.
Barnett is the only officer who potentially has something to offer. Immediately after the shooting he makes his way down Houston street to a point where he can see the east side and the back of the TSBD building. It is fair to say that he is in this area before Adams and Styles exit through the back door and is in a position to see them exit.
However, in the first moments Barnett is totally convinced that the shooter is on top of the building and all his focus is on the top of the building, particularly the fire escape on the east side of the building. In his WC testimony he absolutely clear that he is not focused on the area of the back door, all his focus is on the roofline of the building.
Mr. Liebeler: There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett: It is around the corner from Houston Street.
Mr. Liebeler: Did you go in the building?
Mr. Barnett: No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.
I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down .
Mr. Liebeler: Since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You thought they had been fired from the top of the building?
Mr. Barnett: That's right.
Mr. Liebeler: So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. Barnett: I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
Once a Nutter has decided on something no amount of evidence or common sense is going to change anything. Jack will carry on spouting this falsehood forever more.
-
They do not. This whole thing is just Dan's pipe dream. No part of it is reality.
:D
You just can't get your head round the bit where Shelley and Lovelady walk by Baker in the lobby.
-
:D
You just can't get your head round the bit where Shelley and Lovelady walk by Baker in the lobby.
Andrew has it right. How about prove that or quote anything that states your opinion is remotely correct.
How far apart is the elevator and stairs?
-
Seems doubtful to me that Lovelady and Shelley went thru the desktop counter ahead of Baker and Truly because Truly had to unlock the counter top (as I recall) so that he and Baker could go thru.
This extra action is what I believer slowed up their trek about at least 5 maybe 10 secs such that it was not until about 65 sec post shots when B/T are thru this obstacle and are actually facing in the direction they travel diagonally across the floor to get to the rear elevator.
Thus B/T missed seeing Adams/Stiles as A/S reached the 1st floor by 60 secs post shots.
As far as the time required for 2 women wearing heels to go down 18 steps and 20 ft landing distance per floor it’s doubtful they could do that any faster than about 12 secs per floor
so my estimate is that if they left the 4th floor office window before Dillard took the photo approx 10 sec post shots , then having to traverse about 80 ft at least to get to staircase would require about 15 secs at a 5 ft/per sec pace.
Then 3 floors of steps and landing at 12 sec/per fllor pace = 36 secs
So 60 sec total estimate by Adams was pretty close.
It may require getting 2 women wearing heels to reenact this descent down L- shaped staircases to really determine if they could make it down as fast as 45 sec post shots.
-
Seems doubtful to me that Lovelady and Shelley went thru the desktop counter ahead of Baker and Truly because Truly had to unlock the counter top (as I recall) so that he and Baker could go thru.
This extra action is what I believer slowed up their trek about at least 5 maybe 10 secs such that it was not until about 65 sec post shots when B/T are thru this obstacle and are actually facing in the direction they travel diagonally across the floor to get to the rear elevator.
Thus B/T missed seeing Adams/Stiles as A/S reached the 1st floor by 60 secs post shots.
As far as the time required for 2 women wearing heels to go down 18 steps and 20 ft landing distance per floor it’s doubtful they could do that any faster than about 12 secs per floor
so my estimate is that if they left the 4th floor office window before Dillard took the photo approx 10 sec post shots , then having to traverse about 80 ft at least to get to staircase would require about 15 secs at a 5 ft/per sec pace.
Then 3 floors of steps and landing at 12 sec/per fllor pace = 36 secs
So 60 sec total estimate by Adams was pretty close.
It may require getting 2 women wearing heels to reenact this descent down L- shaped staircases to really determine if they could make it down as fast as 45 sec post shots.
Hey Zeon, I did the calculations for the quickest feasible time Adams and Styles could have reached the first floor in Reply#362 [page 46] of the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread. I've reproduced it below.
I wanted to work out the very quickest time it could've reasonably happened.
The time for getting down the stairs was based on a reconstruction of Oswald's movements in which he made it down four flights of stairs in approximately 20 seconds - that's 5 seconds per flight, and he wasn't even moving that quickly.
You use a speed of 5 ft per second to calculate Vicki's movements across the floor but that is walking pace, about 3.4mph. Adams can't stress enough that she ran all the way until stopped outside by the police officer, I've used a modest running pace of 6mph
The counter was not locked when Truly and Baker went through. The issue was the swinging door which caught on something and Baker crashed into the back of Truly because he was too close and they were running. So there would have been no issue for Shelley and Lovelady to pass through.
In their affidavits Shelley and Lovelady re-enter the building without have gone anywhere (apart from Shelley going across and back the Elm Street extension).
Lovelady never even leaves the steps. Less than 60 seconds later Vicki Adams sees them towards the back of the first floor meaning they must have passed through the lobby.
I'm not sure why you think it would have taken more than one minute for Truly and Baker to get into the main working area of the first floor. The Darnell footage has Baker arriving in the area at the foot of the steps within a few short seconds which is supported by Pauline Sanders FBI statement that she saw a police officer with a round white helmet on the steps seconds after the shooting.
Vicki stated - "I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.'
So let's take her at her word. Before the limo has reached the underpass she has decided to race downstairs.
Assumption #1 Let's say that she begins her run from the fourth floor window as the limo reaches the underpass.
Assumption #2 Let's say the headshot is the last shot.
Assumption #3 Vicki runs all the way.
Using Mark Tyler's Motorcade mapping, Vicki's run begins about 8 seconds after the headshot. The Dillard pic is taken about eleven seconds after the headshot.
This means Vicki started her run 3 seconds before the Dillard pic so it is not surprising to find she is nowhere to be seen in it. Conversely, the Dillard pic demonstrates that Vicki had indeed already began her run.
There are two main sections to Vicki's run:
1) From the window to the top of the stairs.
2) Down 3 flights of stairs
I'll deal with the stairs first.
The video below is a timed recreation of Oswald's supposed scurry from the 6th floor to the second floor lunchroom. This means he has to descend four flights of stairs, whereas Vicki descends only three. I will note the time it takes 'Oswald' to reach the second floor, divide this time by four to get the time taken to descend each floor, then time this by three to get an approximate time for how long it took Vicki to descend 3 flights of stairs.
The time trial begins around 6:48 in the video. There is a timer for the trial itself.
In the time trial, 'Oswald' reaches the top of the 6th floor stairs at around 27 seconds.
'Oswald' reaches the second floor at around 46 seconds.
So, in this time trial it took 'Oswald' approximately 19 seconds to descend four flights of stairs.
For ease of arithmetic let's say it took him 20 seconds, that's 5 seconds per floor, which would make it 15 seconds for Vicki to get down the stairs and remember, in the time trial 'Oswald' isn't really running, unlike Vicki, so this estimation of 15 seconds might actually be a little over.
So, how long does it take for Vicki to get from the window to the top of the stairs?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor and the most probable route taken by Adams and Styles.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr492KQn/TSBD4floor-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Using the scale provided in the diagram it is possible to determine that this distance Adams ran is just under 110 feet, but let's call it 110.
Assuming a very modest running speed of 6mph, this distance can be covered in 12.5 seconds.
So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):
8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.
A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of less than 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators. This is the only way the Stroud document can be correct.
-
Hey Zeon, I did the calculations for the quickest feasible time Adams and Styles could have reached the first floor in Reply#362 [page 46] of the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread. I've reproduced it below.
I wanted to work out the very quickest time it could've reasonably happened.
The time for getting down the stairs was based on a reconstruction of Oswald's movements in which he made it down four flights of stairs in approximately 20 seconds - that's 5 seconds per flight, and he wasn't even moving that quickly.
You use a speed of 5 ft per second to calculate Vicki's movements across the floor but that is walking pace, about 3.4mph. Adams can't stress enough that she ran all the way until stopped outside by the police officer, I've used a modest running pace of 6mph
The counter was not locked when Truly and Baker went through. The issue was the swinging door which caught on something and Baker crashed into the back of Truly because he was too close and they were running. So there would have been no issue for Shelley and Lovelady to pass through.
In their affidavits Shelley and Lovelady re-enter the building without have gone anywhere (apart from Shelley going across and back the Elm Street extension).
Lovelady never even leaves the steps. Less than 60 seconds later Vicki Adams sees them towards the back of the first floor meaning they must have passed through the lobby.
I'm not sure why you think it would have taken more than one minute for Truly and Baker to get into the main working area of the first floor. The Darnell footage has Baker arriving in the area at the foot of the steps within a few short seconds which is supported by Pauline Sanders FBI statement that she saw a police officer with a round white helmet on the steps seconds after the shooting.
Everything in this post is just your opinion and nothing more. Seriously, just a load of crap. The picture is just your personal belief of who even is in the picture. The times are your guesstimates. The beauty of it all is it ends up showing you are just plain wrong.
You have yet to prove one thing. Just the opposite, your refusal to accept the time stamps and testimonies of the officers shows just how wrong you are.
Watching you slither around and try to evade the content of your posts and theories is hard to believe. Making accusations that are not true. Do you really think it is not obvious what is transpiring with your evasive posts? What is the opinion of your imaginary fan base that you are always referring too about you evading all the information proving how wrong you are?
THERE IS NO TIME STAMP OR STATEMENT BY ANY OFFICER THAT REFUTES ADAMS' INSISTENCE THAT SHE LEFT WITHIN SECONDS OF THE LAST SHOT.
This is just a load of crap. All three officers refute your story. The WC knew the importance of the statements. Were Belin and Liebeler really that much smarter than you? Maybe stop embarrassing yourself.
-
This is the WC's conclusion regarding the testimonies of Shelley, Lovelady and Adams:
"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calvery, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They re-entered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."
It confirms the sequence of events I've been presenting all along:
Shelley and Lovelady were on the top step when Gloria Calvery came up and said that the President had been shot. After the encounter with Gloria, they left the steps and moved out into the street.
It was then, and only then - after they had left the steps - that they saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
This is the sequence of events that both men outline in their WC testimonies.
It is an untrue sequence of events.
Why do Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements after the assassination?
The obvious answer is that they have created a false account of their movements in order to cover-up the true account of their movements.
FALSE ACCOUNT
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
They are still on the steps when Gloria runs up and tells everyone the President has been shot.
After this encounter they make their way across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
At some point after leaving the steps they turn and see Truly and Lovelady still outside the building.
They then make their way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yards.
After a short time in this area they re-enter the TSBD building through the west door.
TRUE ACCOUNT
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and runs into Gloria coming the other way.
They both head for the TSBD steps where Gloria tells everyone the President has been shot, including Lovelady who has not left the steps.
Both men then re-enter the TSBD building through the front door and make their way to the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting.
Shelley and Lovelady are trying to cover up the fact that Vicki Adams saw them near the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination.
That is the purpose of all the added movements and the time it takes to make these movements. In particular, it is the purpose of the 3 Minute Lie.
The question then becomes - why are Shelley and Lovelady trying to disguise the fact they made their way directly towards the back of the first floor in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
-
Everything in this post is just your opinion and nothing more. Seriously, just a load of crap. The picture is just your personal belief of who even is in the picture. The times are your guesstimates. The beauty of it all is it ends up showing you are just plain wrong.
You have yet to prove one thing. Just the opposite, your refusal to accept the time stamps and testimonies of the officers shows just how wrong you are.
Watching you slither around and try to evade the content of your posts and theories is hard to believe. Making accusations that are not true. Do you really think it is not obvious what is transpiring with your evasive posts? What is the opinion of your imaginary fan base that you are always referring too about you evading all the information proving how wrong you are?
THERE IS NO TIME STAMP OR STATEMENT BY ANY OFFICER THAT REFUTES ADAMS' INSISTENCE THAT SHE LEFT WITHIN SECONDS OF THE LAST SHOT.
This is just a load of crap. All three officers refute your story. The WC knew the importance of the statements. Were Belin and Liebeler really that much smarter than you? Maybe stop embarrassing yourself.
Looks like it's time for Jack's diaper change.
-
Since I’ve never seen a person jump down 9 steps to a midlevel then turn 90 degrees and jump down the next 9 steps, then make an acute sharp angle turn and jump across 20 ft of floor landing, then I can safely that it would without doubt take way more than 5 secs to run down 18 steps of this dogleg type staircase and then across 20 ft of the diagonal distance to get to the next staircase.
The fastest probable time would be 10 secs and that’s skipping 3 steps at a time , therefore 18 steps can be descended in 6 secs.
Then the momentum of doing that prevents the person from being able to turn on a dime so the diagonal distance cutting back across the landing is more of an arc than it is a true straight line diagonal , hence 20ft of distance to traverse to reach the next staircase.
3 secs to traverse that 20 ft. at a 7ft/ sec pace.
So it might be possible to do it in 9 secs per floor if you are an agile 24 year old 135 lb man like Oswald, wearing some kind of flat sole shoe that was not slippery.
But Adams and Stiles were females in dresses wearing heels and it is preposterous to suggest that it would only take them 5 secs per floor and they could reach the ground floor in 15 secs.
Dan, seek help before the rest of your cognitive ability is lost and you begin mumbling and think you are the POTUS:)
But otherwise, I’m in agreement that Lovelady and Shelley were not outside for 3 minutes but were mistaken about the time and it was really only about 45 sec to a minute when they returned to the TSBD, hence a brief glimpse of Adams and Stiles near the rear elevators just before Truly and Baker arrived.
Imo, I don’t think either Lovelady or Shelley originally intended to lie, but that they were never “corrected” nor at any time was a time trial conducted, and they were encouraged by prosecutors to repeat their estimates , mainly to avoid the problem of Mrs Garners time of exit out of the 4th floor following behind Adams and Stiles which would be like about 30 secs post shots if Adams/Stiles stared down tge 4th floor staircase as early 25 sec posts shots.
You can’t have Garner exiting the 4th floor office with clear LOS to the rear staircase and landing as soon as 30 or even 40 secs post shots because Oswald does not even begin down from the 6 th floor staircase until approx 40 secs post shots at best.
-
Since I’ve never seen a person jump down 9 steps to a midlevel then turn 90 degrees and jump down the next 9 steps, then make an acute sharp angle turn and jump across 20 ft of floor landing, then I can safely that it would without doubt take way more than 5 secs to run down 18 steps of this dogleg type staircase and then across 20 ft of the diagonal distance to get to the next staircase.
The fastest probable time would be 10 secs and that’s skipping 3 steps at a time , therefore 18 steps can be descended in 6 secs.
Then the momentum of doing that prevents the person from being able to turn on a dime so the diagonal distance cutting back across the landing is more of an arc than it is a true straight line diagonal , hence 20ft of distance to traverse to reach the next staircase.
3 secs to traverse that 20 ft. at a 7ft/ sec pace.
So it might be possible to do it in 9 secs per floor if you are an agile 24 year old 135 lb man like Oswald, wearing some kind of flat sole shoe that was not slippery.
But Adams and Stiles were females in dresses wearing heels and it is preposterous to suggest that it would only take them 5 secs per floor and they could reach the ground floor in 15 secs.
Dan, seek help before the rest of your cognitive ability is lost and you begin mumbling and think you are the POTUS:)
But otherwise, I’m in agreement that Lovelady and Shelley were not outside for 3 minutes but were mistaken about the time and it was really only about 45 sec to a minute when they returned to the TSBD, hence a brief glimpse of Adams and Stiles near the rear elevators just before Truly and Baker arrived.
Imo, I don’t think either Lovelady or Shelley originally intended to lie, but that they were never “corrected” nor at any time was a time trial conducted, and they were encouraged by prosecutors to repeat their estimates , mainly to avoid the problem of Mrs Garners time of exit out of the 4th floor following behind Adams and Stiles which would be like about 30 secs post shots if Adams/Stiles stared down tge 4th floor staircase as early 25 sec posts shots.
You can’t have Garner exiting the 4th floor office with clear LOS to the rear staircase and landing as soon as 30 or even 40 secs post shots because Oswald does not even begin down from the 6 th floor staircase until approx 40 secs post shots at best.
Dan, seek help before the rest of your cognitive ability is lost and you begin mumbling and think you are the POTUS:)
Not sure where this is coming from.
I just used the filmed reconstruction of 'Oswald' to get an idea of how quickly the stairs could be descended.
If you've got a problem with the timings of the reconstruction that's fair enough but I didn't conduct the reconstruction so I'm not too sure what the hostility is about.
But Adams and Stiles were females in dresses wearing heels and it is preposterous to suggest that it would only take them 5 secs per floor and they could reach the ground floor in 15 secs.
Zeon, seek help for your moronic sexist attitude.
But otherwise, I’m in agreement that Lovelady and Shelley were not outside for 3 minutes but were mistaken about the time and it was really only about 45 sec to a minute when they returned to the TSBD, hence a brief glimpse of Adams and Stiles near the rear elevators just before Truly and Baker arrived.
So let me get this straight...
...you think they were mistaken about the three minutes and it was really only about 45 seconds before they went back inside?
Do you also think they were mistaken when they said that after Gloria came up to them they went across the Elm Street extension to the concrete spur that divides the two Elm Streets?
Do you think they were mistaken when they said they then went down the Elm Street extension to the railroad yards?
Do you think they were mistaken when they said they re-entered the building through the west door?
-
This is the WC's conclusion regarding the testimonies of Shelley, Lovelady and Adams:
"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calvery, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They re-entered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."
It confirms the sequence of events I've been presenting all along:
Shelley and Lovelady were on the top step when Gloria Calvery came up and said that the President had been shot. After the encounter with Gloria, they left the steps and moved out into the street.
It was then, and only then - after they had left the steps - that they saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
This is the sequence of events that both men outline in their WC testimonies.
It is an untrue sequence of events.
Why do Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements after the assassination?
The obvious answer is that they have created a false account of their movements in order to cover-up the true account of their movements.
FALSE ACCOUNT
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
They are still on the steps when Gloria runs up and tells everyone the President has been shot.
After this encounter they make their way across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
At some point after leaving the steps they turn and see Truly and Lovelady still outside the building.
They then make their way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yards.
After a short time in this area they re-enter the TSBD building through the west door.
TRUE ACCOUNT
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and runs into Gloria coming the other way.
They both head for the TSBD steps where Gloria tells everyone the President has been shot, including Lovelady who has not left the steps.
Both men then re-enter the TSBD building through the front door and make their way to the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting.
Shelley and Lovelady are trying to cover up the fact that Vicki Adams saw them near the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination.
That is the purpose of all the added movements and the time it takes to make these movements. In particular, it is the purpose of the 3 Minute Lie.
The question then becomes - why are Shelley and Lovelady trying to disguise the fact they made their way directly towards the back of the first floor in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
Following on from the above post, an analysis of Vicki Adams' WC testimony to dispel the lame notion that she was somehow mistaken about how long it took her to get down to the first floor. Those who doubt Adams believe that, instead of immediately racing downstairs to find out whether the President was shot, she hung around the office for a few minutes before taking off. In this bozo scenario Adams is in no rush whatsoever then, for some unknown reason, suddenly bursts into a sprint after which she completely forgets that she was hanging around in the office for a few minutes!
What does her testimony tell us about her as a person:
Mr. Belin: Were you graduated from high school?
Miss ADAMS: In San Francisco, that's correct.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS: Following that I entered the Ursaline Order in St. Mary's, Ohio, and I left there as a novice in 1961.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do from there?
Miss ADAMS: I went to Atlanta, Ga. and taught school at the Immaculate Heart of Mary School. And following that I came to Dallas and was employed by the Holiday Inn Central during the summer months, and I obtained a teaching position at St. Monica's School here.
Mr. Belin: And you taught at St. Monica for some period of time?
Miss ADAMS: Yes; for 1 year.
She is a young, intelligent woman who, unlike convicted gun-runner Lovelady, is of impeccable moral character.
Her intelligence comes through during her testimony, each question is answered confidently and precisely, her recollection is clear and detailed.
She recounts where she was located at the time of the assassination, who she was with and what she saw. She describes the limo approaching, recalled that someone called out causing JFK and Jackie turn turn to face the building, then the limo went behind a tree at which point she heard three shots:
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
In this concise sentence she describes her actions following the last shot until she left the building. She stresses the immediacy of her actions when she says "following that, the third shot". She is relating her departure from the window to the last shot. This 'immediacy' is confirmed later in the testimony when she recalls it was a matter of seconds between the last shot and her departure from the window:
Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS: Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
During her testimony she makes it clear that she and Sandra Styles ran until they were outside the building:
Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I was running. We were running.
Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs;
Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Yes.
Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks.
Vicki is clear on this issue - she left the window within seconds of the last shot and was running all the way.
Why, though? What possessed her to want to get outside so quickly?
This question is never asked directly during her testimony but the reason becomes apparent as she describes her movements. With every person she interacts with as she runs around, she seems to want to find out whether the President had been shot.
Mr. BELIN: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.
Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here." And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
"I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out. I think the President is shot."
"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio"
Adams hears the shots ring out and is convinced someone was shooting at the President but she needs to find out for sure. Her decision to find out is immediate, she takes off within seconds. The idea that she hangs around the office for a few minutes after the shooting can't really be reconciled with her need to find out whether or not the President has been shot. The idea that she is suddenly running full tilt can't really be reconciled with the idea of hanging around in the office for a few minutes before taking off.
What does make sense is exactly what she testifies to - she is watching the motorcade, she hears the shots, she believes that someone has shot at the President, she immediately takes off running to find out what's going on.
There is absolutely nothing in her testimony that even hints at her hanging around in the office for a few minutes.
Mr. BELIN: Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS: I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN: So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, approximately.
The notion that Adams is somehow mistaken about how long it took to get down to the first floor is a convenience for lazy "researchers".
And what about her recollection that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor less than 60 seconds after the last shot?
Is this another mistake she makes?
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
Belin takes Vicki through floor by floor asking what she saw until he reaches the first floor:
Mr. Belin: When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS: Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
They then get into a detailed conversation about the exact position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:
Mr. Belin: Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. Belin: You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS: That's correct.
Mr. Belin: It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir.
In the diagram below the red line represents the route Adams and Styles took across the first floor from the stairs to the back door.
The red circle represents the approximate position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JndnP8Rq/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr. Belin: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. Belin: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.
When Adams says she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, it isn't some passing comment that is ignored. Every aspect of this observation is examined. Not only does she recall their exact location, she also reveals that she actually called out to them only to receive no reply.
Isn't it strange that Shelley and Lovelady appear to have absolutely no recollection of this interaction?
Vicki Adams is a highly credible witness. Intelligent and articulate, with excellent powers of recall. There is no credible reason to question her testimony.
There can be little doubt that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor within 60 seconds of the assassination.
-
Ok Dan, I think the problem
Is that the man you think is Lovelady on the steps in Darnell is actually The bald headed Joe Molina.
Imo, The shirt of is too solid a white to be the red and black square checkerboard pattern shirt of Lovelady, and this guy is more bald than Lovelady. And I think there is some statement from Molina of placing himself in proximity to Gloria Cavalry while on the steps and hearing her as did others.
Frazier said he saw that Lovelady left the steps so that supports the idea Lovelady has left the steps early.
So I’m staying with the Gerda Dunckel images and GIF from Darnell that shows what looks to me to be Lovelady with the same type of balding hair pattern, a loose shirt that has some square pattern texture , walking along side of a guy who just happens to look a lot like Shelley wearing dark jacket and pants and similar hair to Shelley. Both men are walking side by side away from the TSBD steps and are crossing to elm st just as Baker is running to the front steps.
And there IS an original early estimate from Lovelady of the time of return to the TSBD via the west side door as early as about 1 minute.
So what I think happened was that the WC basically got Lovelady and Shelley to “cooperate” to help the WC by adding more time of 3 minutes so that the meeting of Adams and Stiles at 60 secs or less would appear not possible and then they could discredit Adams by claiming SHE was mistaken about the time.
The reason I suggested you might be having cognitive dissonance is related to your theory that someone can descend 18 steps of a right angle staircase and cross 20 ft of floor landing in only 5 secs.
So I challenge any female person about the size and weight of Victoria Adams wearing a knee length skirt and heels to attempt to run down an 18 step right angle staircase and then across 20ft of floor in only 5 secs so that Dan’s current theoretical 35 sec timeline of Adams from 4th floor office window to ground floor of TSBD can be established as a fact.
You might have a point that after Shelley and Lovelady continued to change their story and allow for additional time to be added and then kind of have memory problems of whether they saw Adams at all, then they start becoming accessories to supporting a false narrative of the WC making.
-
Additional note: the video Dan posted is the bogus video from Beyond Conspiracy 2003 documentary where they used a PARALLEL staircase , thus shaving off the 20 extra feet of floor landing a person would have to cross if using the right angle staircase of TSBD.
-
Additional note: the video Dan posted is the bogus video from Beyond Conspiracy 2003 documentary where they used a PARALLEL staircase , thus shaving off the 20 extra feet of floor landing a person would have to cross if using the right angle staircase of TSBD.
I have stressed on a number of occasions that the 35 second estimate represented the fastest possible time it could be done.
I went out of my way to stress that it was NOT necessarily the time it was done in.
It would be good manners to properly read my posts rather than make up false statements about them
As for the video I used, what would be a better reconstruction to use? All I was trying to do was genuinely find out how long it might have taken for Adams to get down to the first floor. If there's a better reconstruction that can be used that gives a better idea of the timings involved I'd be more than happy to use it.
What I won't be doing is relying on sexist views of women to estimate anything.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2j9GB9BF/Gerda-Darnell1-00-00-00-00-00-30.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Anyone who thinks these two men are walking along side by side is a dreamer.
And as for Joe Molina's white shirt...
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0Qb5ZwX/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-
I have stressed on a number of occasions that the 35 second estimate represented the fastest possible time it could be done.
I went out of my way to stress that it was NOT necessarily the time it was done in.
It would be good manners to properly read my posts rather than make up false statements about them
As for the video I used, what would be a better reconstruction to use? All I was trying to do was genuinely find out how long it might have taken for Adams to get down to the first floor. If there's a better reconstruction that can be used that gives a better idea of the timings involved I'd be more than happy to use it.
What I won't be doing is relying on sexist views of women to estimate anything.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2j9GB9BF/Gerda-Darnell1-00-00-00-00-00-30.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Anyone who thinks these two men are walking along side by side is a dreamer.
And as for Joe Molina's white shirt...
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0Qb5ZwX/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Sorry but no this is not quite right. Here is the truth of what you think. Adams and Styles sprinted to the first floor in 35 seconds. Unfortunately, in this wayward story Shelley and Lovelady are behind Baker and Truly who are still outside.
Reply 389
With the exception of the lies told by Shelley and Lovelady, all the available evidence points to Adams and Styles racing downstairs within seconds of the assassination. There is zero evidence disagreeing with this.
When she gets to the first floor, 35-45 seconds after the last shot, Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady. She reports this in her WC testimony and she reiterates in this "lost interview" [I'm assuming you've listened to the interview that is the subject of this thread].
She has no reason to lie. She could hardly be a more trustworthy character.
In my last few posts I am in the process of demonstrating that the sequence of events that are the consequences of Adams witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor are feasible - Adams and Styles make it down to the first floor within 35-45 seconds. Shelley and Lovelady make it from their positions outside to the back of the first floor in this same time. Baker and Truly arrive at the same location at the same time.
[You seem to think Adams and Styles making it downstairs in 35-45 seconds is "unrealistic". As with everything else, you are wrong. It's perfectly realistic.]
You most certainly believe they arrive on the first floor in 35 seconds. Now you have them all there within 35 to 45 seconds in this post and they all are together. Ever tell the same story twice?
Reply 419
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that it was perfectly feasible for Adams to be on the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the last shot.
By your own calculations, When Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor Baker and Truly are still out on the steps.
How far is it between the elevator and the stairs. Maybe 5 to 10 feet at most?
-
Sorry but no this is not quite right. Here is the truth of what you think. Adams and Styles sprinted to the first floor in 35 seconds. Unfortunately, in this wayward story Shelley and Lovelady are behind Baker and Truly who are still outside.
Reply 389
With the exception of the lies told by Shelley and Lovelady, all the available evidence points to Adams and Styles racing downstairs within seconds of the assassination. There is zero evidence disagreeing with this.
When she gets to the first floor, 35-45 seconds after the last shot, Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady. She reports this in her WC testimony and she reiterates in this "lost interview" [I'm assuming you've listened to the interview that is the subject of this thread].
She has no reason to lie. She could hardly be a more trustworthy character.
In my last few posts I am in the process of demonstrating that the sequence of events that are the consequences of Adams witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor are feasible - Adams and Styles make it down to the first floor within 35-45 seconds. Shelley and Lovelady make it from their positions outside to the back of the first floor in this same time. Baker and Truly arrive at the same location at the same time.
[You seem to think Adams and Styles making it downstairs in 35-45 seconds is "unrealistic". As with everything else, you are wrong. It's perfectly realistic.]
You most certainly believe they arrive on the first floor in 35 seconds. Now you have them all there within 35 to 45 seconds in this post and they all are together. Ever tell the same story twice?
Reply 419
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that it was perfectly feasible for Adams to be on the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the last shot.
By your own calculations, When Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor Baker and Truly are still out on the steps.
How far is it between the elevator and the stairs. Maybe 5 to 10 feet at most?
Here is the truth of what you think.
:D :D
You don't even know what you think, let alone what I think.
How far is it between the elevator and the stairs. Maybe 5 to 10 feet at most?
I don't know Jack.
Let's call it 10 ft.
Does that sound good to you?
Glad to see you worked out the Barnett on Houston Street thing.
-
This is the WC's conclusion regarding the testimonies of Shelley, Lovelady and Adams:
"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calvery, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They re-entered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."
It confirms the sequence of events I've been presenting all along:
Shelley and Lovelady were on the top step when Gloria Calvery came up and said that the President had been shot. After the encounter with Gloria, they left the steps and moved out into the street.
It was then, and only then - after they had left the steps - that they saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
This is the sequence of events that both men outline in their WC testimonies.
It is an untrue sequence of events.
Why do Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements after the assassination?
The obvious answer is that they have created a false account of their movements in order to cover-up the true account of their movements.
FALSE ACCOUNT
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
They are still on the steps when Gloria runs up and tells everyone the President has been shot.
After this encounter they make their way across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
At some point after leaving the steps they turn and see Truly and Lovelady still outside the building.
They then make their way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yards.
After a short time in this area they re-enter the TSBD building through the west door.
TRUE ACCOUNT
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and runs into Gloria coming the other way.
They both head for the TSBD steps where Gloria tells everyone the President has been shot, including Lovelady who has not left the steps.
Both men then re-enter the TSBD building through the front door and make their way to the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting.
Shelley and Lovelady are trying to cover up the fact that Vicki Adams saw them near the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination.
That is the purpose of all the added movements and the time it takes to make these movements. In particular, it is the purpose of the 3 Minute Lie.
The question then becomes - why are Shelley and Lovelady trying to disguise the fact they made their way directly towards the back of the first floor in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
Following on from the above post, an analysis of Vicki Adams' WC testimony to dispel the lame notion that she was somehow mistaken about how long it took her to get down to the first floor. Those who doubt Adams believe that, instead of immediately racing downstairs to find out whether the President was shot, she hung around the office for a few minutes before taking off. In this bozo scenario Adams is in no rush whatsoever then, for some unknown reason, suddenly bursts into a sprint after which she completely forgets that she was hanging around in the office for a few minutes!
What does her testimony tell us about her as a person:
Mr. Belin: Were you graduated from high school?
Miss ADAMS: In San Francisco, that's correct.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS: Following that I entered the Ursaline Order in St. Mary's, Ohio, and I left there as a novice in 1961.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do from there?
Miss ADAMS: I went to Atlanta, Ga. and taught school at the Immaculate Heart of Mary School. And following that I came to Dallas and was employed by the Holiday Inn Central during the summer months, and I obtained a teaching position at St. Monica's School here.
Mr. Belin: And you taught at St. Monica for some period of time?
Miss ADAMS: Yes; for 1 year.
She is a young, intelligent woman who, unlike convicted gun-runner Lovelady, is of impeccable moral character.
Her intelligence comes through during her testimony, each question is answered confidently and precisely, her recollection is clear and detailed.
She recounts where she was located at the time of the assassination, who she was with and what she saw. She describes the limo approaching, recalled that someone called out causing JFK and Jackie turn turn to face the building, then the limo went behind a tree at which point she heard three shots:
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
In this concise sentence she describes her actions following the last shot until she left the building. She stresses the immediacy of her actions when she says "following that, the third shot". She is relating her departure from the window to the last shot. This 'immediacy' is confirmed later in the testimony when she recalls it was a matter of seconds between the last shot and her departure from the window:
Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS: Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
During her testimony she makes it clear that she and Sandra Styles ran until they were outside the building:
Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I was running. We were running.
Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs;
Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Yes.
Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks.
Vicki is clear on this issue - she left the window within seconds of the last shot and was running all the way.
Why, though? What possessed her to want to get outside so quickly?
This question is never asked directly during her testimony but the reason becomes apparent as she describes her movements. With every person she interacts with as she runs around, she seems to want to find out whether the President had been shot.
Mr. BELIN: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.
Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here." And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
"I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out. I think the President is shot."
"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio"
Adams hears the shots ring out and is convinced someone was shooting at the President but she needs to find out for sure. Her decision to find out is immediate, she takes off within seconds. The idea that she hangs around the office for a few minutes after the shooting can't really be reconciled with her need to find out whether or not the President has been shot. The idea that she is suddenly running full tilt can't really be reconciled with the idea of hanging around in the office for a few minutes before taking off.
What does make sense is exactly what she testifies to - she is watching the motorcade, she hears the shots, she believes that someone has shot at the President, she immediately takes off running to find out what's going on.
There is absolutely nothing in her testimony that even hints at her hanging around in the office for a few minutes.
Mr. BELIN: Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS: I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN: So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, approximately.
The notion that Adams is somehow mistaken about how long it took to get down to the first floor is a convenience for lazy "researchers".
And what about her recollection that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor less than 60 seconds after the last shot?
Is this another mistake she makes?
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
Belin takes Vicki through floor by floor asking what she saw until he reaches the first floor:
Mr. Belin: When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS: Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
They then get into a detailed conversation about the exact position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:
Mr. Belin: Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. Belin: You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS: That's correct.
Mr. Belin: It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir.
In the diagram below the red line represents the route Adams and Styles took across the first floor from the stairs to the back door.
The red circle represents the approximate position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JndnP8Rq/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr. Belin: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. Belin: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.
When Adams says she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, it isn't some passing comment that is ignored. Every aspect of this observation is examined. Not only does she recall their exact location, she also reveals that she actually called out to them only to receive no reply.
Isn't it strange that Shelley and Lovelady appear to have absolutely no recollection of this interaction?
Vicki Adams is a highly credible witness. Intelligent and articulate, with excellent powers of recall. There is no credible reason to question her testimony.
There can be little doubt that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor within 60 seconds of the assassination.
-
Here is the truth of what you think.
:D :D
You don't even know what you think, let alone what I think.
How far is it between the elevator and the stairs. Maybe 5 to 10 feet at most?
I don't know Jack.
Let's call it 10 ft.
Does that sound good to you?
Once again, everything but address the issue. You have the infamous sighting by Adams and Styles on the first floor when Shelley. Lovelady, Baker, and Truly are still on the steps.
Then for some really strange reason you believe Truly and Baker standing a few feet from Shelley and Lovelady makes them invisible to Adams and Styles.
-------------------------------
Here is your post where you were going to do something or prove something about Barnett, but apparently you cannot. I guess you never realized the door to the Houston Dock is around the corner yet on Houston Street because of the building design. The building is offset to the West on the back of the building. You know like a dock would be.
Vickie Adams: The Lost interview
Reply 473
Dan O---Last chance to work it out for yourself.
This is from Barnett's WC testimony:
Mr. Liebeler: There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett: It is around the corner from Houston Street.
You were asked to finish the whatever this is, but I guess not.
You completely glossed over the fact that Barnett really did look behind the TSBD and all he saw was police by the RR Yards and Police heading West on Elm Street.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. BARNETT - I went looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
Not an officer anywhere near the back of the building.
-
Following on from the above post, an analysis of Vicki Adams' WC testimony to dispel the lame notion that she was somehow mistaken about how long it took her to get down to the first floor. Those who doubt Adams believe that, instead of immediately racing downstairs to find out whether the President was shot, she hung around the office for a few minutes before taking off. In this bozo scenario Adams is in no rush whatsoever then, for some unknown reason, suddenly bursts into a sprint after which she completely forgets that she was hanging around in the office for a few minutes!
What does her testimony tell us about her as a person:
Mr. Belin: Were you graduated from high school?
Miss ADAMS: In San Francisco, that's correct.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS: Following that I entered the Ursaline Order in St. Mary's, Ohio, and I left there as a novice in 1961.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do from there?
Miss ADAMS: I went to Atlanta, Ga. and taught school at the Immaculate Heart of Mary School. And following that I came to Dallas and was employed by the Holiday Inn Central during the summer months, and I obtained a teaching position at St. Monica's School here.
Mr. Belin: And you taught at St. Monica for some period of time?
Miss ADAMS: Yes; for 1 year.
She is a young, intelligent woman who, unlike convicted gun-runner Lovelady, is of impeccable moral character.
Her intelligence comes through during her testimony, each question is answered confidently and precisely, her recollection is clear and detailed.
She recounts where she was located at the time of the assassination, who she was with and what she saw. She describes the limo approaching, recalled that someone called out causing JFK and Jackie turn turn to face the building, then the limo went behind a tree at which point she heard three shots:
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
In this concise sentence she describes her actions following the last shot until she left the building. She stresses the immediacy of her actions when she says "following that, the third shot". She is relating her departure from the window to the last shot. This 'immediacy' is confirmed later in the testimony when she recalls it was a matter of seconds between the last shot and her departure from the window:
Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS: Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
During her testimony she makes it clear that she and Sandra Styles ran until they were outside the building:
Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I was running. We were running.
Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs;
Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Yes.
Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks.
Vicki is clear on this issue - she left the window within seconds of the last shot and was running all the way.
Why, though? What possessed her to want to get outside so quickly?
This question is never asked directly during her testimony but the reason becomes apparent as she describes her movements. With every person she interacts with as she runs around, she seems to want to find out whether the President had been shot.
Mr. BELIN: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.
Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here." And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
"I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out. I think the President is shot."
"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio"
Adams hears the shots ring out and is convinced someone was shooting at the President but she needs to find out for sure. Her decision to find out is immediate, she takes off within seconds. The idea that she hangs around the office for a few minutes after the shooting can't really be reconciled with her need to find out whether or not the President has been shot. The idea that she is suddenly running full tilt can't really be reconciled with the idea of hanging around in the office for a few minutes before taking off.
What does make sense is exactly what she testifies to - she is watching the motorcade, she hears the shots, she believes that someone has shot at the President, she immediately takes off running to find out what's going on.
There is absolutely nothing in her testimony that even hints at her hanging around in the office for a few minutes.
Mr. BELIN: Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS: I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN: So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, approximately.
The notion that Adams is somehow mistaken about how long it took to get down to the first floor is a convenience for lazy "researchers".
And what about her recollection that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor less than 60 seconds after the last shot?
Is this another mistake she makes?
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
Belin takes Vicki through floor by floor asking what she saw until he reaches the first floor:
Mr. Belin: When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS: Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
They then get into a detailed conversation about the exact position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:
Mr. Belin: Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. Belin: You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS: That's correct.
Mr. Belin: It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir.
In the diagram below the red line represents the route Adams and Styles took across the first floor from the stairs to the back door.
The red circle represents the approximate position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JndnP8Rq/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr. Belin: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. Belin: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.
When Adams says she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, it isn't some passing comment that is ignored. Every aspect of this observation is examined. Not only does she recall their exact location, she also reveals that she actually called out to them only to receive no reply.
Isn't it strange that Shelley and Lovelady appear to have absolutely no recollection of this interaction?
Vicki Adams is a highly credible witness. Intelligent and articulate, with excellent powers of recall. There is no credible reason to question her testimony.
There can be little doubt that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor within 60 seconds of the assassination.
Is the reason you are talking to yourself is you are the only one gullible enough to believe this story?
-
"No mas" Roberto Duran.
-
A few replies back I posted this passage from the conclusions of the Warren Commission:
"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calvery, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They re-entered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."
The more astute will have noticed this sentence:
On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams.
This is a blatant falsehood. It's hard to believe they actually got away with publishing this.
In her WC testimony, Vicki Adams recalls seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor with clarity. She recalls exactly where they were stood, what she called out to them and their lack of response and that it was less than 60 seconds after the last shot.
In stark contrast, neither Shelley nor Lovelady appear to recall seeing Adams, which might explain this falsehood.
Lovelady most certainly does not see a girl who he believes was Victoria Adams.
In fact, this part of his testimony reveals he had been coached on this particular issue prior to giving his testimony:
Mr. Ball: You came in through the first floor?
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. Lovelady: I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. Ball: Who is Vickie?
Mr. Lovelady: The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. Ball: What is her full name?
Mr. Lovelady: I wouldn't know.
Mr. Ball: Vickie Adams?
Mr. Lovelady: I believe so.
Mr. Ball: Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. Lovelady: I couldn't swear.
This is probably the funniest piece of any testimony.
Lovelady is simply asked who he saw on the first floor after entering the building. He says he saw a girl and then completely out of nowhere blurts out Vickie's name. It's amazing.
Ball has a bit of a flap and asks who Vickie is but Ball knows full well who she is. We know this because when he asks Lovelady what her full name is, Lovelady doesn't know so Ball has to provide her full name! He asks it as a question as if he still doesn't know. Priceless.
Still flapping, Ball then asks Lovelady if he thought it was Vicki even though Lovelady had blurted out that he wouldn't swear it was Vickie in the first place.
Ball then makes the mistake of trying to find out where this girl was when Lovelady saw her. It would seem like a simple question but Lovelady is suddenly all over the place:
Mr. Ball: Where was the girl?
Mr. Lovelady: I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.
"...she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something..." ::)
Unbelievable. And who was this guy he was asking whether he should continue working? Wouldn't that guy be his boss, Bill Shelley?
Ball can't end the interview quickly enough after this bozo-fest.
Ball's pretending not to know Vicki Adams is made all the more ridiculous by the person who was interviewed directly before Lovelady - Vicki Adams.
Another stand out moment in Lovelady's testimony is when he is asked how long after the shots was it that Gloria came running up. This is when Lovelady introduces the 3 Minute Lie:
Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr Ball: Three minutes is a long time.
When a witness answers a direct question with a direct answer I would assume it's customary to take that at face value.
Incredibly, Ball seems to question Lovelady's answer when he makes the point "Three minutes is a long time."
Three minutes is a long time?
Now why would Ball think to question that?
Might it be because Vicki Adams had just testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady towards the back of the first floor within seconds of the assassination?
And why didn't Ball bring up this contradiction between the testimonies of Adams and Lovelady?
And why didn't he bring up this contradiction when Shelley told the same lie?
And why didn't he bring up the fact that both men's testimonies contradicted the testimonies of Truly and Baker and the time trials they had taken part in?
And why didn't he bring up the fact that Shelley had contradicted his own affidavit concerning the sequence of events with Gloria?
Why were these contradictions allowed to stand in the Commission's conclusions?
Why did the Commission publish the blatant falsehood regarding Lovelady's testimony?
-
I’m in complete agreement with Dan that Victoria Adams was telling the truth that in her estimate it was within 1 minute that she and Stiles got down to the 1st floor and that Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley near the rear elevators.
Presuming therefore 60 sec is an accurate estimate then we can examine which of 2 options for Lovelady/Shelley is the more probable.
The earliest estimate of The Darnell film showing Baker running to the TSBD steps is approx 20 sec post shots.
There is a probable proposed identification of Lovelady and Shelley still at the steps during this 20 -25 sec interval of the Darnell film and if L/S left the steps as observed by B.W. Frazier, then they must have waited at least until about 30 sec post shots to do so which is after Darnell camera pans away.
Approx time of leaving the steps therefore for Lovelady/Shelley leaving the steps is 30 secs post shots.
Option 1: L/S leave the steps and walk about 30 ft towards Elm st so as to be seen by Frazier. Then L/S trek out as they claimed to a point near where the JFK limo had been on Elm st. Then L/S turned around and traveled back to TSBD going along the west side of TSBD to enter thru a west side door and then to the rear elevators. Total distance= at least 300 ft.
Option 2: L/S left the steps , went out about 30ft, then turned around and returned that same 30ft to enter into TSBD by the front door. L/S then proceeded into lobby , then thru the desk counter top which was NOT locked , and then crossed the 1st floor to arrive near the rear elevators= 90 ft. Total distance = 150ft.
Option 1 is improbable because the distance L/S would have to travel would be in at least 300 ft and so they would both have had to run at 10 ft/sec the ENTIRE distance in order to have returned to TSBD by the west door and be near elevators by 60 sec post shots.
Option 2, returning thru the TSBD front door, as crazy as it may seem, is the only probable way that L/S could have arrived to the rear elevators by 60 sec post shots because the distance is only 150 ft, and they easily could have walked that at a normal pace of 5ft/ sec.
-
I’m in complete agreement with Dan that Victoria Adams was telling the truth that in her estimate it was within 1 minute that she and Stiles got down to the 1st floor and that Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley near the rear elevators.
Presuming therefore 60 sec is an accurate estimate then we can examine which of 2 options for Lovelady/Shelley is the more probable.
The earliest estimate of The Darnell film showing Baker running to the TSBD steps is approx 20 sec post shots.
There is a probable proposed identification of Lovelady and Shelley still at the steps during this 20 -25 sec interval of the Darnell film and if L/S left the steps as observed by B.W. Frazier, then they must have waited at least until about 30 sec post shots to do so which is after Darnell camera pans away.
Approx time of leaving the steps therefore for Lovelady/Shelley leaving the steps is 30 secs post shots.
Option 1: L/S leave the steps and walk about 30 ft towards Elm st so as to be seen by Frazier. Then L/S trek out as they claimed to a point near where the JFK limo had been on Elm st. Then L/S turned around and traveled back to TSBD going along the west side of TSBD to enter thru a west side door and then to the rear elevators. Total distance= at least 300 ft.
Option 2: L/S left the steps , went out about 30ft, then turned around and returned that same 30ft to enter into TSBD by the front door. L/S then proceeded into lobby , then thru the desk counter top which was NOT locked , and then crossed the 1st floor to arrive near the rear elevators= 90 ft. Total distance = 150ft.
Option 1 is improbable because the distance L/S would have to travel would be in at least 300 ft and so they would both have had to run at 10 ft/sec the ENTIRE distance in order to have returned to TSBD by the west door and be near elevators by 60 sec post shots.
Option 2, returning thru the TSBD front door, as crazy as it may seem, is the only probable way that L/S could have arrived to the rear elevators by 60 sec post shots because the distance is only 150 ft, and they easily could have walked that at a normal pace of 5ft/ sec.
"...and if L/S left the steps as observed by B.W. Frazier..."
I can't find where Frazier says he observed Shelley and Lovelady leaving the steps.
Can you point me to it.
Thanks
-
As someone who doesn't believe Oswald took the shots I am, by default, a Conspiracy Theorist. I have no option as far as that is concerned, it is an automatic consequence of believing someone else took the shots.
As such, it is of immense significance to me that Shelley and Lovelady lied to various investigating agencies and the Warren Commission about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. Why would they do that? This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.
Why would they try to cover up that, seconds after the shots, they re-entered the TSBD building through the front door and made their way towards the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker?
What were they doing that needed to be covered up?
Another consequence of their lies is that it becomes important to review what else they said at this time and what other events surrounding the assassination they were involved with.
And it doesn't take too much digging to unearth the fact that Shelley was involved with a fundamentally important aspect of the case - Oswald's alibi!
Oswald may have been a lot of things but he was not stupid. Beyond the mumbling loner known to his work colleagues, Oswald was an intelligent and articulate man. His various radio and television appearances demonstrate this with clarity as does the fact he taught himself to speak Russian (sidenote :- does anyone know if he was in the Marines when he learned Russian?)
When a person gives an alibi to the police they know they have gone on record and that this is the version of events that will be used against them in a court of law. For anyone accused of a crime, the most important element of their defence is the alibi. They also know that once the alibi is given it will be checked to see how 'cast iron' it is. For crimes such as shooting police officers or Presidents, this is doubly so.
If a guilty person is going to give a false alibi it must be one that is incredibly difficult to verify or one that has been agreed with an accomplice.
Looking through the various notes and reports pertaining to Oswald's interrogation, his alibi has a few different elements:
According to what Oswald reportedly said -
1] He was in the lunch room on the first floor (the Domino Room) when JFK's limo drove by the building.
2] After this he went up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke
3] He bought the Coke and was drinking it when Baker burst in, gun drawn.
4] He went back down to the first floor.
5] He finished his lunch and, possibly while he was finishing it, got together with Bill Shelley.
6] Shelley gave Oswald the impression there would be no more work that day and that it was okay for him to take the rest of the day off.
7] Oswald left the building.
Firstly, there is no way to verify that Oswald was in the Domino Room when JFK passed by. Although Oswald does seem to confirm this with his mention of seeing Junior Jarman and, presumably, Hank Norman together while he was in the Domino Room. The only time he could have seen these two men together on the first floor is when they entered the back door of the TSBD building on their way up to the fifth floor. Because the east elevator wasn't available Jarman and Norman had to walk around the elevators to get the west elevator. Walking around the elevators would have brought them into line of sight for someone sat in the Domino Room. This makes Oswald's apparent mention of seeing these men together compelling evidence supporting his assertion he was in the first floor lunchroom at the time JFK went by.
Unfortunately for Oswald, neither Jarman nor Norman saw him, so there is no direct alibi.
Secondly, the second floor lunchroom encounter is well attested to and seems to be confirmed by Oswald, Baker and Truly (not to mention indirectly by Mrs Robert Reid, who saw Oswald close to the lunchroom with a Coke in his hand a couple of minutes after the assassination). There is a wrinkle - Oswald appears to make it clear he had already bought his Coke and was sipping it when Baker burst in, something supported by Baker's initial report in which he had written Oswald was already drinking a Coke when the encounter occurred but which was then crudely crossed out. Oswald having already purchased the Coke really buggers up the timeline for his allegedly getting down from the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom in the requisite time. Whatever the case, there is ample confirmation that Oswald was indeed in the second floor lunchroom seconds after the assassination.
The third element to Oswald's alibi is his interaction with Bill Shelley. Apparently, Oswald credits Shelley with his motive for leaving the building. The importance of this cannot be stressed enough because it is Oswald's decision to 'flee the scene' that puts him well and truly in the spotlight as a prime suspect on the day of the assassination. Even if he actually pulled the trigger, he has no reason to run immediately. He has already encountered the police, seconds after the shooting, four floors below the location of the shooting and has been given a pass. They can't immediately trace the rifle to him, they can't use fingerprint evidence against him on the day. All he has to do is hold his nerve, say he was on the second floor lunchroom all along and skip town later that day. Instead, he leaves the TSBD building.
So let's imagine that he is the shooter and is trying to come up with a false alibi. One that will stick in a court of law.
He's being asked - why did you flee the scene of the crime? Obviously, he has to come up with something convincing, something that would be almost impossible to verify.
Instead, he basically says that Bill Shelley said it was OK for him to leave!
Why on earth would he mention Bill Shelley? Why would he say it was Bill Shelley who recommended he leave for the day?
After his arrest, Oswald saw Shelley as he was being taken into the interview room and Shelley, who was having his affidavit taken, had to vacate the same room. So Oswald knows that all they have to do is ask Shelley if such a conversation took place. It's the easiest thing in the world to check and it can be checked almost immediately.
Maybe Oswald just thought that, by some miracle, Shelley would back him up. That Shelley would somehow know, when being asked, that Oswald was expecting him to lie to the police on his behalf and back him up.
According to his testimony, Shelley (like nearly everyone else) hardly knew Oswald at all except as someone who worked at the TSBD building. Why would Oswald, an intelligent man, think Shelley would back him up? Why would he take such a ridiculous risk?
The answer to this question is obvious - Oswald did it because he fully expected that Shelley would back him up!
So, which of these two options makes sense - that Oswald was so utterly stupid as to include Shelley in a false alibi that could be checked out immediately, leaving him looking completely guilty...
...or that Oswald fully expected to be backed up by Shelley, which is why he felt comfortable telling his interrogators about it?
Of course, when asked, Shelley denies all knowledge of this interaction with Oswald. This is from an FBI report about Shelley the day after the assassination:
"OSWALD said nothing to him about leaving work early or going home, and he did not give OSWALD permission to leave work.
He is still being asked about it in his WC testimony:
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald was cool and collected during the questioning, as if he'd experienced this kind of thing before, so the idea that a panicked and desperate Oswald blurted out the first name he could think of as an alibi is a non-starter.
It must rate as one of the weakest alibis in law enforcement history and something only an utter moron would come up with.
Or...
...Shelley was lying.
Again.
If we accept Shelley was lying about interacting with Oswald, there are one of two options available as far as I can see:
1] Oswald really did have the conversation with Shelley about going home and Shelley just lied about it for his own reasons (innocent Shelley).
2] Oswald viewed Shelley as an accomplice but Shelley sold him down the river (guilty Shelley).
Option #1] explains why Shelley refuses to back up Oswald (sort of) but it doesn't explain why Shelley lied about his movements after the assassination.
And it also doesn't explain another contribution to the case Shelley makes that day. Unknown to those inside the TSBD, the shooting of Tippit was about to bring half of Dallas law enforcement crashing down on Oswald's head. But if the Tippit shooting hadn't have happened, Oswald would have still been at the top of the DPD's list of suspects thanks to Roy Truly and Shelley.
Option #2] doesn't really need too much examining. Shelley, like Oswald, was involved in the assassination but didn't take the shots. Oswald including Shelley in his alibi now makes sense - Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up. The fact Shelley lied about his movements after the assassination also becomes explicable as part of his involvement that he was trying to hide.