JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on October 23, 2019, 05:34:52 AM
-
Quote Ray Mitcham
Why,in his same day affidavit, did your independent witness, Marion Baker state "As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket." ?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.msg52539.html#msg52539
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
There was no response to Ray Mitcham's question. I would like to see one. Anyone? Did Truly lie about that man in saying he was working for him?
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
What was Belin going to ask Truly about the 3rd floor? Belin asked nothing about the man Baker said they saw on the 3rd or 4th floors. Why not? When Baker was questioned by council, the 3rd or 4th floor man was apparently no longer a topic. Was the lunchroom encounter story contrived after all?
-
Quote Ray Mitcham https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.msg52539.html#msg52539
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
There was no response to Ray Mitcham's question. I would like to see one. Anyone? Did Truly lie about that man in saying he was working for him?What was Belin going to ask Truly about the 3rd floor? Belin asked nothing about the man Baker said they saw on the 3rd or 4th floors. Why not? When Baker was questioned by council, the 3rd or 4th floor man was apparently no longer a topic. Was the lunchroom encounter story contrived after all?
Oswald admitted to Fritz that he was stopped by a Police Officer in the Lunchroom.
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
Holmes who remembers something about a coke, recalls a similar confrontation.
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."
The testimony from a variety of sources all corroborate the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter, as they say in the classics "All roads lead to Rome".
And as for Baker being confused about the floor he was on is perfectly understandable because he first walks up steps to get into the Depository and then enters a closed stairwell which has a set of stairs leading to a platform and then he leaves the platform and walks up another set of stairs to the next floor.
JohnM
-
Sean Murphy went out dramatically, on the 50th anniversary. He left this behind, for those enamored by his speculations.
Next question, did the windshield have a hole, clean through?
(https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*vua45JtgbNwo8gTrm8kjmg.png)
If I had ever been here before on another time around the wheel...
-
Huh? Why did he post a hamster on a wheel? What is he trying to say?
Example: This is a lie, I have proven it is a lie. No one cares. How close can you come to this level of proof, about anything?
In a near time scenario (not 55 years after the fact) if a witness can be proven to have lied, under oath, about any material fact, the entirety of the testimony of that witness can be reasonably deemed unreliable.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/davis_vc.htm
TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS
The testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis was taken at 9 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building. Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis.
Mr. BELIN. You are known as Mrs. Charles Davis?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Your first name is Virginia?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?
Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.
Mr. BELIN. In Texas?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen....
Her name was Wilbanks. She lied about her age in a DPD statement in November
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/vdavis.htm
..on this day personally appeared Mrs. Virginia Davis, w/m/16 [sic]....
and again to the WC in April.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/VirginaWilbanksDavis1948.jpg)
https://www.meaningfulfunerals.net/?action=obituaries.obit_view&o_id=2314545&fh_id=11982
Gladys Douglas
February 08, 1943 - October 25, 2013
Memorial services for Gladys Douglas, age 70 of Palestine were held at 4:00 P.M. Sunday at Family of Faith Church in Elkhart with Pastor Clayton Douglas and Tommy Richardson officiating. Arrangements were under the direction of Bailey & Foster.
Mrs. Douglas died Friday at Palestine Regional Medical Center. She was born February 8, 1943 in Anderson County to Liga Burton Wilbanks and Lucille Arthurs Wilbanks. Mrs. Douglas was retired as a restaurant manager.
Mrs. Douglas was preceded in death by her parents, a son Joel Loyd Douglas, a sister Shirley Wilbanks, and a brother Hylas Wilbanks. She is survived by her daughters, Diane Cretsinger and husband Marlin of Palestine, Tammy Matthews and husband John Mark of Odessa, and Jackie Kerr and husband John Farrell of Saginaw, a son Dale Douglas of Hurst, a sister Virginia Davis and husband Charles of Tulia,
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/42544464/barbara-jeanette-davis
Barbara Jeanette Roberson Davis
BIRTH 21 May 1941
Athens, Henderson County, Texas, USA
DEATH 4 Aug 2007 (aged 66)
Brownsboro, Henderson County, Texas, USA
...brother-in-law Charles and wife Virginia, Tulia....
Absent verifiable evidence, endless debate seems similar to passing gas.
-
Oswald admitted to Fritz that he was stopped by a Police Officer in the Lunchroom.
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
:D
Funny how you forget to note that Captain Fritz forgot to mention what Agent Hosty heard Mr Oswald say!
(https://i.imgur.com/DZTAi6n.jpg)
Second-floor lunchroom for coke? Yes indeed, before the motorcade's arrival!
Watched the motorcade after that? Yes indeed, 'went outside to watch P. parade'!
This is Mr Oswald in the Wiegman film, just behind Mr Lovelady Thumb1:
(https://i.imgur.com/bO1KffJ.jpg)
Holmes who remembers something about a coke, recalls a similar confrontation.
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."
:D
Funny how you forget to quote the all-important bit just before that!
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Officer Baker and Mr Truly and Mr Oswald did have an encounter just after the shooting by the front door. This was then relocated---------for obvious reasons;) -----------to the second-floor lunchroom.
By the way, Mr Mytton, have you seen this from Agent Hosty?
(https://i.imgur.com/DZTAi6n.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
And as for Baker being confused about the floor he was on is perfectly understandable because....
Right ::)
Not all the confusion was so "perfectly understandable". What was Belin going to ask Truly about the 3rd floor?
And then seemed to think better of it.
As usual, memory seemed to improve with time? The 3rd or 4th floor man was described as 5' 9''- 30 [OK] 165 lbs [not a good call] 'Wearing a light brown jacket' What about that?
-
Huh? Why did he post a hamster on a wheel? What is he trying to say?
Probably trying to say...Get more sleep Tom.
-
The testimony from a variety of sources all corroborate the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter, as they say in the classics "All roads lead to Rome".
This is the first time I have ever heard about 'a variety of sources' corroborating the lunchroom story. Who else was there?...they say in the classics "All roads lead to Rome"---What does that mean?
-
Quote Ray Mitcham https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.msg52539.html#msg52539
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
There was no response to Ray Mitcham's question. I would like to see one. Anyone? Did Truly lie about that man in saying he was working for him?What was Belin going to ask Truly about the 3rd floor? Belin asked nothing about the man Baker said they saw on the 3rd or 4th floors. Why not? When Baker was questioned by council, the 3rd or 4th floor man was apparently no longer a topic. Was the lunchroom encounter story contrived after all?
Quote Ray Mitcham https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.msg52539.html#msg52539
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
There was no response to Ray Mitcham's question. I would like to see one. Anyone? Did Truly lie about that man in saying he was working for him?What was Belin going to ask Truly about the 3rd floor? Belin asked nothing about the man Baker said they saw on the 3rd or 4th floors. Why not? When Baker was questioned by council, the 3rd or 4th floor man was apparently no longer a topic. Was the lunchroom encounter story contrived after all?
Mr Mitcham was quite right to ask the question! And the answer to your question, Mr Freeman, is yes-------the lunchroom encounter story was contrived.
Mr Oswald, we now know, actually told Captain Fritz he had visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination and then went back down to the first floor to eat his lunch... and then 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Captain Fritz & co. kept these explosive claims a secret----------and the truth only came out very recently. when Agent Hosty's notes were unearthed!
Officer Baker encountered Mr Oswald at the front entrance to the building. He needed to know if Mr Oswald was an employee so he could show him the way to the stairs. Mr Truly then intervened and offered to escort Officer Baker.
There may have been no 'man walking away from the stairway' on the 'third or fourth floor'------------Officer Baker may have been told 'We have the assassin, he worked in the building, we need you to add him to your story'.
And then----------while Officer Baker is giving his affidavit statement based on a suspect description handed to him----------who is brought in past him only the guy he ran into at the front door!!
Does Officer Baker's affidavit note that the man in handcuffs was the man on the third or fourth floor? No.
Does Officer Baker identify Mr Oswald in a subsequent lineup as the man on the third or fourth floor? No.
Most likely Officer Baker agreed to invent an encounter with an employee by the back stairs up a few floors, but----------when he found out that the employee being accused of shooting JFK was an employee who couldn't possibly have been up on the sixth floor at the time-----------he was stunned. It would explain why he took so long to put his name to the official story!
But! If Officer Baker really did encounter a man walking away from the stairway a few floors up, it was someone involved in the assassination. Which raises the question: Why did Mr Truly vouch for him as an employee?
Thumb1:
-
Probably trying to say...Get more sleep Tom.
:D
Mr Scully doesn't want Mr Oswald's alibi to be established because no glory would accrue to Mr Scully from that... Pure narcissism!
-
:D
Mr Scully doesn't want Mr Oswald's alibi to be established because no glory would accrue to Mr Scully from that... Pure narcissism!
Sigh.....
point·less/ˈpoin(t)ləs/
1. having little or no sense, use, or purpose.
"speculating like this is a pointless exercise"
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=233&search="saw_mr.%20truly"%20and%20oswald
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrulyLunchroom.jpg)
Alan, sitting on a bed in my Mom's basement, "armed" only with a keyboard and clad in my pee-jays, singlehandedly I caused the deposition described below to happen. (My research is credited in several books; two examples... "A Secret Order: Investigating the High Strangeness and Synchronicity in the" ...By H. Albarelli, Jr. click link (https://books.google.com/books?id=SfoBBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq="High+Strangeness+and+Synchronicity"+"serious+researchers"&hl=en&ppis=_c&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjw54SP0rLlAhWNMd8KHX_nC_gQ6AEwAXoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=simkin&f=false) and
"Our Man in Haiti:" ...By Joan Mellen click link (https://books.google.com/books?id=d_0BBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT5&dq="our+man+in+haiti"+scully&hl=en&ppis=_c&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQ9IiL07LlAhUCUt8KHYr0DM4Q6AEwAHoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q="our%20man%20in%20haiti"%20scully&f=false) ...)
You'll just have to trust me, (I expect it won't be easy for you to do that) threads such as this one, "Those Front Steps", "Mrs. Robert Reid," "Sarah Stanton," "Wiping Down my Weapon Quickly," "SS Agent Lied About Curtain Rods In Mrs. Paine's Garage," are pointless chat fests. Those lacking the discernment to anticipate what is obviously a waste of their time will continue to waste their time and create additional, counterproductive distraction.
Mary's Mosaic: The CIA Conspiracy to Murder John F. Kennedy, ...
https://books.google.com... (https://books.google.com/books?id=OGOCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT401&dq="peter+janney"+mary%27s+mosaic+"o%27keefe+at+the+deposition"&hl=en&ppis=_c&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR5OOv0LLlAhULTt8KHYeAABMQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q="peter%20janney"%20mary's%20mosaic%20"o'keefe%20at%20the%20deposition"&f=false)
Peter Janney - 2016
The CIA Conspiracy to Murder John F. Kennedy, Mary Pinchot Meyer, and Their Vision for World Peace: Third Edition Peter Janney ... Before the first edition of Mary's Mosaic was published in April 2012, I had concluded that Lt. Mitchell was likely no longer living, or that his name ... The arrival of William Lockwood Mitchell (aka “Bill Mitchell”) and his attorney Garet O'Keefe at the deposition proceedings in ...
"No longer living," contradicted by one of author Janney's cited "intelligence" sources, a year later!
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19016&p=275187
Hank Albarelli, on 29 May 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:
...I have not read it. [My source knew Mr. Mitchell quite well and indeed still communicates and occasionally visits with him; that I passed this on to peter was entirely appropriate.} There is far more to the Mary M. story than has been released thus far. I expect that will come out soon. If Tom has info he should it out in the proper places. [Few read this forum.]...
-
Mr Mitcham was quite right to ask the question! And the answer to your question, Mr Freeman, is yes-------the lunchroom encounter story was contrived.
Mr Oswald, we now know, actually told Captain Fritz he had visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination and then went back down to the first floor to eat his lunch... and then 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Captain Fritz & co. kept these explosive claims a secret----------and the truth only came out very recently. when Agent Hosty's notes were unearthed!
Officer Baker encountered Mr Oswald at the front entrance to the building. He needed to know if Mr Oswald was an employee so he could show him the way to the stairs. Mr Truly then intervened and offered to escort Officer Baker.
There may have been no 'man walking away from the stairway' on the 'third or fourth floor'------------Officer Baker may have been told 'We have the assassin, he worked in the building, we need you to add him to your story'.
And then----------while Officer Baker is giving his affidavit statement based on a suspect description handed to him----------who is brought in past him only the guy he ran into at the front door!!
Does Officer Baker's affidavit note that the man in handcuffs was the man on the third or fourth floor? No.
Does Officer Baker identify Mr Oswald in a subsequent lineup as the man on the third or fourth floor? No.
Most likely Officer Baker agreed to invent an encounter with an employee by the back stairs up a few floors, but----------when he found out that the employee being accused of shooting JFK was an employee who couldn't possibly have been up on the sixth floor at the time-----------he was stunned. It would explain why he took so long to put his name to the official story!
But! If Officer Baker really did encounter a man walking away from the stairway a few floors up, it was someone involved in the assassination. Which raises the question: Why did Mr Truly vouch for him as an employee?
Thumb1:
Most likely Officer Baker agreed to invent an encounter with an employee by the back stairs up a few floors,
Nonsense!.... Baker was simply a motorcycle patrolman who responded immediately when he heard the sound of rifle shots. He wasn't involved in anyway and only started lying as his superiors wanted after he had given his sworn affidavit.
Baker did encounter Lee in the second floor lunchroom, but the encounter was so mundane and innocuous he simply dismissed it as being important when he wrote his affidavit. However, he did recall seeing a man on either the third or fourth floor ( could have been the fifth) . The reason he recalled seeing the man was because the man was being furtive and trying to duck out of sight. ( an indication of guilt) The man (Jack Dougherty ?) apparently had been headed down stairs on the stairway when he heard Baker ascending, and he saw Baker's white helmet. He immediately tried to get out of sight but Baker spotted him and ordered him to come back to the stairs. ( he was by the elevator and only about twenty feet away)
If Officer Baker really did encounter a man walking away from the stairway a few floors up, it was someone involved in the assassination. Which raises the question: Why did Mr Truly vouch for him as an employee?
"it was someone involved in the assassination."
Yes, I think you're right....
Why did Mr Truly vouch for him as an employee?
Because Roy Truly was also involved.... I believe the man was Jack Dougherty and Truly was afraid that the slow witted Dougherty would start telling Baker about hiding a rifle up on the sixth floor. So Truly intervened immediately when Baker started asking questions.
-
Most likely Officer Baker agreed to invent an encounter with an employee by the back stairs up a few floors,
Nonsense!.... Baker was simply a motorcycle patrolman who responded immediately when he heard the sound of rifle shots. He wasn't involved in anyway and only started lying as his superiors wanted after he had given his sworn affidavit.
Baker did encounter Lee in the second floor lunchroom, but the encounter was so mundane and innocuous he simply dismissed it as being important when he wrote his affidavit.
.......
Uhhh.... he drew his service revolver, allegedly holding it just inches from a subject's torso, in the presence of the subject's employer, inside their place of business. How many times per day, or for that matter, in an entire career did a Dallas patrol officer have occasion to do that, in the line of duty?
-
Uhhh.... he drew his service revolver, allegedly holding it just inches from a subject's torso, in the presence of the subject's employer, inside their place of business. How many times per day, or for that matter, in an entire career did a Dallas patrol officer have occasion to do that, in the line of duty?
If you believe that 'a man walking away from the stairway' on 'the third or fourth floor' was Mr Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom, then you'll believe anything. Explains a lot really!
Now, Mr Scully, I've a massively important research project for you!
- Who designed the lunchroom?
- Were they related in any way to the person who delivered the coke machine?
- Can such a link, if established, be related to the Janney thing?
Get this right, Mr Scully, and your Amazing Research might be Credited In Even More Books! Thumb1:
-
Uhhh.... he drew his service revolver, allegedly holding it just inches from a subject's torso, in the presence of the subject's employer, inside their place of business. How many times per day, or for that matter, in an entire career did a Dallas patrol officer have occasion to do that, in the line of duty?
Baker did Not "drew his service revolver" when he came upon/saw Oswald. Baker had the gun already drawn as he was going up the stairwell. Not sure what your law enforcement background may be, but on-the-ground law enforcement draw their weapon often. Actually firing a drawn weapon is far rarer. Nowadays, with tazzers etc, the drawing of a weapon even more frequent.
-
I've noticed in others threads that Scully is now seeking to pad his buddy list with WC apologists...
Yep! They flatter him and he happily becomes their useful id*ot.
I want the 201 file on the first cousin of the vending machine factory manager!
That's a tall order, Mr Beck, but if there's one guy who might pull it off it'd be Mr Scully, the Man Whose Research Has Been Credited In Books! Thumb1:
-
Uhhh.... he drew his service revolver, allegedly holding it just inches from a subject's torso, in the presence of the subject's employer, inside their place of business. How many times per day, or for that matter, in an entire career did a Dallas patrol officer have occasion to do that, in the line of duty?
What's your point?..... Baker was alarmed and alert.... And I'm happy that you used the modifier "allegedly" in saying, "he drew his service revolver, allegedly holding it just inches from a subject's torso," I have serious doubt that Baker pointed his revolver at the coke sippin man in the lunchroom. I don't doubt that he had the gun in his hand, but I believe the story about having the gun pointed at Lee Oswald is just a figment of the LNer's imagination. Who want it to appear that Baker was suspicious when he saw Lee Oswald sippin a coke. What a pile of BS!... If Baker had been suspicious of Lee, he wouldn't have turned and left about 15 seconds after he entered.
-
As late as 12/23 a DPD evidence report has Baker running into LHO on the stairway on the third or fourth floor.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker20fritz20report.jpg)
What does Baker noting that the LHO he saw at the DPD homocide office was wearing different clothes than when he ran into him in the TSBD mean?
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bakers%20testimony%203.png)
-
As late as 12/23 a DPD evidence report has Baker running into LHO on the stairway on the third or fourth floor.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker20fritz20report.jpg)
Captain Fritz wrote this for Chief Curry, Mr Craig. He's still stuck in Script A mode here, recounting the original story DPD were going to run with.
Captain Fritz's wording ('while coming down the stairs... on the stairway') makes clear what Baker's affidavit 'walking away from the stairway' was meant to convey:
The man was coming off the stairway when Officer Baker ran into him.
Nothing like the lunchroom story that subsequently... 'emerged'!
-
If you believe that 'a man walking away from the stairway' on 'the third or fourth floor' was Mr Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom, then you'll believe anything. Explains a lot really!
Now, Mr Scully, I've a massively important research project for you!
- Who designed the lunchroom?
- Were they related in any way to the person who delivered the coke machine?
- Can such a link, if established, be related to the Janney thing?
Get this right, Mr Scully, and your Amazing Research might be Credited In Even More Books! Thumb1:
If you believe that 'a man walking away from the stairway' on 'the third or fourth floor' was Mr Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom, then you'll believe anything.
Well said, Mr Ford.... Anybody who believes that Baker was referring to the encounter with Lee in the lunchroom when he described the man on either the third or fourth floor ( possibly the fifth) ....Should have their picture next to the definition of "gullible" .......
There's something about Baker's encounter with the man who was trying to avoid being seen that is generally never mentioned....We know that the second floor lunchroom was well lit. ( many photos reveal the lighting) But Baker said that he couldn't see the man when he was by the elevator because the area was not well lit.... Thus he commanded the man to come to the stairs where there was a window with sunshine streaming in.
-
If you believe that 'a man walking away from the stairway' on 'the third or fourth floor' was Mr Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom, then you'll believe anything.
Well said, Mr Ford.... Anybody who believes that Baker was referring to the encounter with Lee in the lunchroom when he described the man on either the third or fourth floor ( possibly the fifth) ....Should have their picture next to the definition of "gullible" .......
Indeed so, Mr Cakebread!
Difficult to see though how the man at the stairway on the third or fourth floor could be Mr Dougherty, who was blond and 6'1"
-------------unless they told Officer Baker at DPD HQ his recollection was wrong and these were the correct suspect details that he needed to put in his affidavit?
-
Indeed so, Mr Cakebread!
Difficult to see though how the man at the stairway on the third or fourth floor could be Mr Dougherty, who was blond and 6'1"
-------------unless they told Officer Baker at DPD HQ his recollection was wrong and these were the correct suspect details that he needed to put in his affidavit?
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
You present a good counterpoint in pointing out that Dougherty was 6'1"..... I don't know what "blond" means.... There are many shades of "blond"
-
Captain Fritz wrote this for Chief Curry, Mr Craig. He's still stuck in Script A mode here, recounting the original story DPD were going to run with.
Captain Fritz's wording ('while coming down the stairs... on the stairway') makes clear what Baker's affidavit 'walking away from the stairway' was meant to convey:
The man was coming off the stairway when Officer Baker ran into him.
Nothing like the lunchroom story that subsequently... 'emerged'!
TThe man was coming off the stairway when Officer Baker ran into him.
"Coming off the stairway".... Yes, I believe that's a fact..... I strongly suspect that the encounter took place on the fifth floor..... I doubt that it could have occurred on the fourth floor because there were several women on the fourth floor...and the third floor was only one floor up from the second floor lunchroom, where Baker had encountered Lee Oswald......It's not likely that Baker wouldn't have known that he'd just left a man in the lunchroom one floor down. and had climbed only one floor....
-
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
You present a good counterpoint in pointing out that Dougherty was 6'1"..... I don't know what "blond" means.... There are many shades of "blond"
Hmmm... "30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair" doesn't sound right for "great big husky" Mr Dougherty (as Mr Truly described him), no matter what the lighting. But I wouldn't close off the possibility that Baker was persuaded to amend the details for his affidavit. This before seeing Mr Oswald marched into the office.
-
Hmmm... "30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair" doesn't sound right for "great big husky" Mr Dougherty (as Mr Truly described him), no matter what the lighting. But I wouldn't close off the possibility that Baker was persuaded to amend the details for his affidavit. This before seeing Mr Oswald marched into the office.
I believe the man that Baker saw on the 5th ? floor was an employee.... What employee fit that description?
-
All anyone has to do is look at the floor plan for the TSBD 2nd Floor. If Oswald had come Down that stairwell and then ducked into the vestibule, he would have utilized the Other Door inside that vestibule. That Other Door permits access to a hallway which leads to a Down stairway. That stairway empties within feet of the TSBD Front Door. Easy Peasy into the streetsy.
-
All anyone has to do is look at the floor plan for the TSBD 2nd Floor. If Oswald had come Down that stairwell and then ducked into the vestibule, he would have utilized the Other Door inside that vestibule. That Other Door permits access to a hallway which leads to a Down stairway. That stairway empties within feet of the TSBD Front Door. Easy Peasy into the streetsy.
Good point, Royell.... Why the hell would a "fleeing assassin" corner himself by ducking into the lunchroom , when he had easy exit out of the building simply by taking the door into the second floor office area.
Lee was Not a fleeing assassin ....He was a chump who had been duped by conniving CIA type minds . He had gone to the second floor lunchroom to get a Coke and that's where he was when JFK was ambushed.
-
I believe the man that Baker saw on the 5th ? floor was an employee.... What employee fit that description?
Mr Oswald came close enough--which was probably the point!
-
Mr Oswald came close enough--which was probably the point!
We know it was not Lee Oswald..... So WHO was it that Truly vouched for ?
-
We know it was not Lee Oswald..... So WHO was it that Truly vouched for ?
Julia Postal's boss. He was there to pick up Lee and drive him to the Theater but Baker held him up and Lee had to find his own way to the picture show, a little later. It's close to Halloween.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/59566461/john-august-callahan
The gaps in our awareness are routinely labeled "mysterious"....
Bill Simpich - Posted October 23, 2019
.....It is intriguing to note that the news story reports that it was the mysterious manager John Callahan who turned the lights on and exposed LHO to the police (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41&search=balcony#relPageId=20&tab=page). Postal said that just as Oswald entered the building, Callahan came running out the other way, and "got in his car...to see where (the police) were going (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41&search=balcony#relPageId=20&tab=page)." Another report says that the "manager on duty (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&relPageId=262&search=balcony)" had seen one man in the theater "since 12:05". To my knowledge, Callahan was never questioned by anybody.
http://files.usgwarchives.net/tx/tomgreen/obits/2001/051501.txt
JOHN AUGUST CALLAHAN
John August Callahan, 85, passed away Monday, May 14, 2001, after a
brief illness. He was born in Palestine, Texas, on Sept. 6, 1915. He
married Mildred Patrick, also of Palestine, on May 26, 1941. He served
overseas in the Signal Corps and in the Merchant Marines in World War
II.
He began his long employment with Rowley United Theatres, later to
become United Artists, in Palestine. He was later transferred to
Dallas as city manager of the theaters there. While in Dallas, John
was an active member of the Knights of Columbus, Oak Cliff Lions Club
and the Variety Club. He and his family moved to San Angelo in 1966,
where he served as city manager of United Artist Theatres until his
retirement in 1980.
He was a Lions Club member for 55 years and a past president of the
Downtown Lions Club in San Angelo, as well as past exalted ruler of
the Benevolent Order of Elks. John was a member of Holy Angels
Catholic Church......
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldTexasTheaterJohnACallahanWaxahachie050750.jpg)
-
Right on, and earlier this year we saw this confused contribution by Mr. Scully addressing his pen pal Parnell as "just the facts" guy:
And from Mr. "Just the facts" himself, in case Mr. Scully's fading memory has failed to recall Parnell arriving at this "contribution":
Thumb1:
We're drifting away from the basic question asked in the title of this thread.... Did Roy Truly and/or Marion Baker Lie?
Clearly the answer is; YES..... Baker did not enter the investigation as a liar.... He was simply a patrolman trying to perform his duties.
But it wasn't long until he realized that his superiors ( those in control of his paycheck and career) wanted his cooperation in framing Lee Oswald.
Baker was made aware that Lee Oswald was a dirty communist rat who had defected to Russia so he deserved being lynched.... or at least he most certainly was not deserving of the iron clad alibi that Baker could provide. Baker knew very well that Lee was "DRINKING A COKE" when he spotted him in the lunchroom, and he knew that that FACT provided the dirty commie rat with an iron clad alibi. Originally ( when he was an honest patrolman ) he said that he saw Lee "Drinking a coke " in the lunchroom ..... Later he lied and recanted his statement.
So Did Baker Lie? There's no doubt about it....
-
Baker was made aware that Lee Oswald was a dirty communist rat who had defected to Russia so he deserved being lynched....
Don't forget the Tippit murder!
-
Mr Oswald, we now know, actually told Captain Fritz he had visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination and then went back down to the first floor to eat his lunch... and then 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Captain Fritz & co. kept these explosive claims a secret----------and the truth only came out very recently. when Agent Hosty's notes were unearthed!
The recent "Hosty's Notes" revelation doesn't come close to erasing the Second-Floor Lunchroom Encounter or exonerating Lee Harvey Oswald for President Kennedy's murder. And if Oswald had actually been "outside to watch P. Parade" when JFK was shot, then please tell me why I don't have this statement coming directly from Oswald's own lips in my extensive JFK assassination audio/video collection (which is a statement that all sensible people know most certainly would have been uttered by the accused assassin in front of the live television cameras and microphones on either November 22nd or November 23rd if that accused assassin had really been standing on the front stoop of the Book Depository at 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63)....
"I can't possibly be the killer the police are looking for! I was standing outside drinking a Coke with my fellow employees Buell Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady when the President passed by my building! So how could I be the assassin?! This is nuts!!" -- Lee H. Oswald; Nov. 22 or 23, 1963
More on Lee Harvey Oswald's whereabouts at 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1308.html
Officer Baker encountered Mr Oswald at the front entrance to the building. He needed to know if Mr Oswald was an employee so he could show him the way to the stairs. Mr Truly then intervened and offered to escort Officer Baker.
There may have been no 'man walking away from the stairway' on the 'third or fourth floor'------------Officer Baker may have been told 'We have the assassin, he worked in the building, we need you to add him to your story'.
And then----------while Officer Baker is giving his affidavit statement based on a suspect description handed to him----------who is brought in past him only the guy he ran into at the front door!!
Does Officer Baker's affidavit note that the man in handcuffs was the man on the third or fourth floor? No.
Does Officer Baker identify Mr Oswald in a subsequent lineup as the man on the third or fourth floor? No.
Most likely Officer Baker agreed to invent an encounter with an employee by the back stairs up a few floors, but----------when he found out that the employee being accused of shooting JFK was an employee who couldn't possibly have been up on the sixth floor at the time-----------he was stunned. It would explain why he took so long to put his name to the official story!
But! If Officer Baker really did encounter a man walking away from the stairway a few floors up, it was someone involved in the assassination. Which raises the question: Why did Mr Truly vouch for him as an employee?
Thumb1:
All of the above is pure crap, of course.
It's intriguing to watch the Internet conspiracy theorists---decade after decade---invent their made-up scenarios so they can continue to pretend---year after year---that Oswald didn't fire a shot at anybody in Dallas on November 22nd. A very strange hobby, indeed.
Lots more on the Lunchroom Encounter....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-973.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1080.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1123.html
-
Don't forget the Tippit murder!
Thank you....Yes, that was probably reason numero uno ..... Baker certainly thought that Lee had gunned down Tippit..... and he wouldn't have provided the iron clad alibi for Lee even though he knew the truth was that Lee was drinking a coke at the time he saw him in the lunchroom.
-
please tell me why I don't have this statement coming directly from Oswald's own lips in my extensive JFK assassination audio/video collection (~~~)
Because, Mr von Pein, the interrogations weren't recorded! Thumb1:
-
Thank you....Yes, that was probably reason numero uno ..... Baker certainly thought that Lee had gunned down Tippit..... and he wouldn't have provided the iron clad alibi for Lee even though he knew the truth was that Lee was drinking a coke at the time he saw him in the lunchroom. at the front door to the building when he saw him
Fixed it for you, Mr Cakebread! Thumb1:
-
Because, Mr von Pein [sic], the interrogations weren't recorded! Thumb1:
Mr. Ford,
Oh, for Pete's sake! I wasn't talking about the "interrogations" of Oswald. As I clearly said, I was talking about the "live television cameras and microphones" that were being stuck in Oswald's face on multiple occasions on both Nov. 22nd and 23rd.
If Lee Harvey Oswald had really been located on the TSBD front steps when the assassination occurred, then no conspiracy theorist can possibly explain (in a reasonable fashion) why Oswald didn't shout out to the many reporters in the DPD hallways, "I was on the steps at 12:30, so I can't be JFK's killer!"
And the fact that Lee Oswald didn't make such a statement to the press in the corridors of the Dallas Police Department (when he obviously could have very easily done so, and the DPD wouldn't have been able to stop him) is one of the main reasons we can know, with nearly 100% certainty, that Lee Harvey Oswald is not "Prayer Man" (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/09/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1031.html).
-
Mr. Ford,
I wasn't talking about the "interrogations" of Oswald. As I clearly said, I was talking about the "live television cameras and microphones" that were being stuck in Oswald's face on multiple occasions on both Nov. 22nd and 23rd.
If Lee Harvey Oswald had really been located on the TSBD front steps when the assassination occurred, then no conspiracy theorist can possibly explain (in a reasonable fashion) why Oswald didn't shout out to the many reporters in the DPD hallways, "I was on the steps at 12:30, so I can't be JFK's killer!"
Mr von Pein, you believe the second-floor lunchroom incident involving Officer Baker and Mr Oswald and Mr Truly took place, yes?
Well, let's run with that, shall we?
What a stroke of luck for the assassin, Mr Oswald! He gets spotted just after the shooting, way way way down on the second floor.
Why didn't he shout out to the many reporters in the DPD hallways, "I was in the second-floor lunchroom the whole time, ask the cop and my boss------they saw me there right after the shooting!"?
-
Because, Mr von Pein, the interrogations weren't recorded! Thumb1:
Who mentioned "interrogations"?
What we do have is Oswald saying he was in the building at the time! Oops!
@1:12
JohnM
-
Why didn't he shout out to the many reporters in the DPD hallways, "I was in the second-floor lunchroom the whole time, ask the cop and my boss------they saw me there right after the shooting!"?
Huh? What Oswald was doing in the minutes after the assassination is irrelevant and besides it was proved that Oswald could have made the journey in the time allowed.
JohnM
-
Who mentioned "interrogations"?
What we do have is Oswald saying he was in the building at the time! Oops!
@1:12
JohnM
What we do have is Mr Oswald saying he 'went outside to watch P. parade'!
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
The front entranceway was both 'outside' and part of the building. Get it now, Mr Mytton?
Of course you don't-------------you never will! :D
By the way! I was a bit hurt that you never got back to me with your explanation for this dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film. Care to offer your thoughts now?
(https://i.imgur.com/PAo7ez9.jpg)
Thank you! Thumb1:
-
The front entranceway was both 'outside' and part of the building. Get it now, Mr Mytton?
Hahahaha, as soon as you exit the front door you are outside! Try again.
JohnM
-
Huh? What Oswald was doing in the minutes after the assassination is irrelevant and besides it was proved that Oswald could have made the journey in the time allowed.
JohnM
Mr Oswald showed no interest in giving the press any details. He had already told Captain Fritz where he was at the time of the assassination:
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
Captain Fritz kept what Mr Oswald said to himself.
And you take Liar Fritz's side! ::)
-
Hahahaha, as soon as you exit the front door you are outside! Try again.
JohnM
Indeed so---yet you are not yet out in the street, you are still in the enclosed entranceway of the building.
Not my fault you can't explain this document away, Mr Mytton:
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
Combining both statements from Mr Oswald as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, we see that he has told us exactly where he was at the time of the shooting:
Front entranceway.
Checkmate! Thumb1:
-
Mr Oswald showed no interest in giving the press any details.
Maybe because the "details" like shooting the President, would have been highly incriminating?
JohnM
-
could have made the journey -- ROFL
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/xUOwFWJaAduNkAiTrG/giphy.gif)
JohnM
-
Maybe because the "details" like shooting the President, would have been highly incriminating?
JohnM
Yeah, showing interest in a Coca Cola on the second floor is about incriminating as it gets! :D
Any thoughts yet on this, Mr Mytton?:
(https://i.imgur.com/PAo7ez9.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
Any thoughts yet on this, Mr Mytton?:
(https://i.imgur.com/PAo7ez9.jpg)
Thumb1:
I see a lot of insignificant blobs, now what?
JohnM
-
In see a lot of insignificant blobs, now what?
JohnM
I love it when you play dumb, Mr Mytton! :D
Why is there a shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side when he is nowhere close to the shadow cast by the western column of the entranceway?
-
Hahahaha, as soon as you exit the front door you are outside! Try again.
JohnM
John - When are You going to weigh in on that Jet Black, Razor Straight, Strip that runs alongside Lovelady? I have seen the original Steve McQueen version of "The Blob". What we are seeing next to Lovelady does not remotely qualify as a "Blob".
-
Mr von Pein [sic], you believe the second-floor lunchroom incident involving Officer Baker and Mr Oswald and Mr Truly took place, yes?
Well, let's run with that, shall we?
What a stroke of luck for the assassin, Mr Oswald! He gets spotted just after the shooting, way way way down on the second floor.
Why didn't he shout out to the many reporters in the DPD hallways, "I was in the second-floor lunchroom the whole time, ask the cop and my boss------they saw me there right after the shooting!"?
Nice attempt at dodging the point I was making.
The point (again) being:
If Lee Oswald WAS REALLY INNOCENT of shooting the President, and if Oswald had REALLY BEEN located out on the front steps of the Book Depository Building at the exact moment when JFK was getting shot (as many Internet conspiracists firmly believes is true), then it's virtually impossible to believe that Oswald would have remainded DEAD SILENT about his FACTUAL ALIBI when those live television cameras were staring him in the face on both November 22nd and 23rd.
And the fact that Oswald actually told reporters that he was located inside the TSBD building at the time of the assassination eliminates the idea that LHO was standing outside on the front steps when JFK was being shot (unless some inventive conspiracy theorist can come up with a plausible reason for an INNOCENT Lee Harvey Oswald to want to LIE to the press when he said he was INSIDE even though he was really OUTSIDE)....
LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."
REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"
OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."
-
Nice attempt at dodging the point I was making.
The point (again) being:
If Lee Oswald WAS REALLY INNOCENT of shooting the President, and if Oswald had REALLY BEEN located out on the front steps of the Book Depository Building at the exact moment when JFK was getting shot (as many Internet conspiracists firmly believes is true), then it's virtually impossible to believe that Oswald would have remainded DEAD SILENT about his FACTUAL ALIBI when those live television cameras were staring him in the face on both November 22nd and 23rd.
And the fact that Oswald actually told reporters that he was located inside the TSBD building at the time of the assassination eliminates the idea that LHO was standing outside on the front steps when JFK was being shot (unless some inventive conspiracy theorist can come up with a plausible reason for an INNOCENT Lee Harvey Oswald to want to LIE to the press when he said he was INSIDE even though he was really OUTSIDE)....
LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."
REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"
OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."
Because Captain Fritz was managing his perception of what was happening to him.
He may simply have told him, 'Look, we know you were out front at the time, that's been corroborated, but we're charging you because we can tie you to the rifle used in the shooting'.
----------> Risk of Mr Oswald blurting out his alibi to the cameras? Zilcho! Thumb1:
We know that Captain Fritz was capable of such shenanigans because he later withheld Mr Oswald's claim to the gone 'outside to watch P. parade'. It would take five-and-a-half decades before Mr Oswald's actual claim would come to light.
What you need to explain, Mr von Pein, is why Mr Oswald's claim to have gone 'outside to watch P. parade'-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
------------was hushed up.
Watcha got?
-
The front entranceway was both 'outside' and part of the building.
I love it when CTers get desperate and try to say (with a straight face) that a person standing on the front TSBD steps can still be considered "in" or "inside" the building.
But when the crazy CT talk gets swept aside (as it must), then a reasonable person realizes that nobody who was standing on the steps of the Book Depository would ever say they were "in the building". That's crazy. The steps are OUTSIDE the front door, for Pete sake.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xMASHuENDuQ/T07-Ortw7TI/AAAAAAAAF4Q/Y63uJHUInzo/s527/Texas-School-Book-Depository-Building.jpg)
Related "Inside" or "Outside" discussion....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1052.html
-
I love it when CTers get desperate and try to say (with a straight face) that a person standing on the front TSBD steps can still be considered "in" or "inside" the building.
But when the crazy CT talk gets swept aside (as it must), then a reasonable person realizes that nobody who was standing on the steps of the Book Depository would ever say they were "in the building". That's crazy. The steps are OUTSIDE the front door, for Pete sake.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xMASHuENDuQ/T07-Ortw7TI/AAAAAAAAF4Q/Y63uJHUInzo/s527/Texas-School-Book-Depository-Building.jpg)
Related "Inside" or "Outside" discussion....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1052.html
Exactly-------that's why Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he 'went outside to watch P. parade'!
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
But! The front entranceway is still part of the building. So when Mr Oswald is asked if he was 'in the building at the time' he confirms that yes, that was his location.
Glad to help you out of your muddled thinking, Mr von Pein! Thumb1:
-
Any chance that you'll ever spell my name correctly, Mr. Ford?
-
Any chance that you'll ever spell my name correctly, Mr. Ford?
Any chance you'll move beyond your muddled thinking, Mr Von Pein? :D
-
The front entranceway is still part of the building. So when Mr Oswald is asked if he was 'in the building at the time' he confirms that yes, that was his location.
Glad to help you out of your muddled thinking, Mr von Pein [sic]! Thumb1:
As I said, it's always humorous to watch a desperate CTer trying to reconcile the "in's" with the "out's". You just provided further humor. Thanks.
-
I love it when you play dumb, Mr Mytton! :D
Why is there a shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side when he is nowhere close to the shadow cast by the western column of the entranceway?
Bumped for Mr Mytton, who seems to have done a runner! :D
-
Because Captain Fritz was managing his perception of what was happening to him.
He may simply have told him, 'Look, we know you were out front at the time, that's been corroborated, but we're charging you because we can tie you to the rifle used in the shooting'.
----------> Risk of Mr Oswald blurting out his alibi to the cameras? Zilcho! Thumb1:
More made-up CT garbage (of course).
What you need to explain, Mr von Pein [sic], is why Mr Oswald's claim to have gone 'outside to watch P. parade' was hushed up.
It wasn't. CTers just can't properly evaluate the evidence, that's all. For example....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1308.html
-
As I said, it's always humorous to watch a desperate CTer trying to reconcile the "in's" with the "out's". You just provided further humor. Thanks.
This from the man who refuted Mr Oswald's documented claim to have gone 'outside' by pointing out that the front steps were 'outside'! :D
Do let us know when you can muster a coherent (i.e. non-muddled) response to the questions I put to you, Mr Von Pein! Thumb1:
-
More made-up CT garbage (of course).
It wasn't. CTers just can't properly evaluate the evidence, that's all. For example....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1308.html
Sorry to see you throw in the towel so quickly, Mr Von Pein :-[
-
Sorry to see you throw in the towel so quickly, Mr Von Pein :-[
What I tell you? Stick with the Black Strip. You are getting your hat handed to you.
-
But! The front entranceway is still part of the building. So when Mr Oswald is asked if he was 'in the building at the time' he confirms that yes, that was his location.
Lovelady doesn't seem to agree with your definition of in and out, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there."
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Frazier also says he went "out there" to see him(The President)
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.
JohnM
-
What I tell you? Stick with the Black Strip. You are getting your hat handed to you.
Spoken like a true Lone Nutter, Mr Storing!
Good luck with your heroic quest to find the real Mr Frazier in Wiegman :D
-
This from the man who refuted Mr Oswald's documented claim to have gone 'outside' by pointing out that the front steps were 'outside'! :D
Do let us know when you can muster a coherent (i.e. non-muddled) response to the questions I put to you, Mr Von Pein! Thumb1:
I refuted the CTers' claim of LHO being OUTSIDE with Oswald's OWN STATEMENT to the press about how he was INSIDE.
You're the one doing the "muddling", Mr. Ford. Not me.
-
Lovelady doesn't seem to agree with your definition of in and out, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there."
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
JohnM
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
I refuted the CTers' claim of LHO being OUTSIDE with Oswald's OWN STATEMENT to the press about how he was INSIDE.
You're the one doing the "muddling", Mr. Ford. Not me.
Ok, so you'll have no trouble quoting Mr Oswald saying he was INSIDE the building! Thumb1:
-
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
Thumb1:
So no comment about Lovelady's definition of in and out?
And Frazier also agrees that he went out there to see him(The President)
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.
Shelley says he was outside the glass doors.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
JohnM
-
Ok, so you'll have no trouble quoting Mr Oswald saying he was INSIDE the building! Thumb1:
Already did. You know that. It's in my "I'm Just A Patsy" video. Here it is again...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-rcjDGNFEH_TjlCazd2ZmN0Wmc/view
And you aren't going to argue that Oswald didn't know what the reporter meant when he said "at the time", are you Mr. Ford? ....
REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"
-
So no comment about Lovelady's definition of in and out?
And Frazier also agrees that he went out there to see him(The President)
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.
JohnM
Mr Oswald's off-the-cuff response to the reporter's question (where the word 'inside' is nowhere used btw) is supplemented and clarified by this:
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
No contradiction: Mr Oswald (said he) was in the entranceway. Sorreee!
-
Already did. You know that. It's in my "I'm Just A Patsy" video. Here it is again...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-rcjDGNFEH_TjlCazd2ZmN0Wmc/view
And you aren't going to argue that Oswald didn't know what the reporter meant when he said "at the time", are you Mr. Ford? ....
REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"
But the word 'INSIDE' is not used there, Mr Von Pein, so you must have meant a different quote when you told us Mr Oswald said he was 'INSIDE' (look, you even put the word in CAPITALS).
Looking forward to hearing the quote you actually meant! Thumb1:
-
But the word 'INSIDE' is not used there, Mr Von Pein, so you must have meant a different quote when you told us Mr Oswald said he was 'INSIDE' (look, you even put the word in CAPITALS).
Looking forward to hearing the quote you actually meant! Thumb1:
As I said before, CTers have no ability to properly evaluate the JFK evidence. The Internet CTers are the last people on the planet who should be looking into this case.
Alan Ford now wants to argue that when Oswald said "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir" when answering the question of "Were you in the building at the time?", Oswald really meant this:
"Well, yeah, sort of....I was kinda IN the building, but I was really OUTSIDE on the steps....but I guess you should consider the steps to be IN the building too (even though the steps are, of course, OUTSIDE the front door)....but I guess I was kinda IN the building....in a way....sort of....you know?"
(It's always hysterical when CTers do this IN IS REALLY OUT thing. I get a kick out of it.)
-
Mr Oswald's off-the-cuff response to the reporter's question (where the word 'inside' is nowhere used btw) is supplemented and clarified by this:
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
No contradiction: Mr Oswald was in the entranceway. Sorreee!
Have you actually read Hosty's note, all Hosty says is that Oswald went out to watch the P.Parade and we know Oswald went outside a few minutes later and would have seen part of the "stalled" P.Parade.
A President's Parade is more than 1 car!
JohnM
-
As I said before, CTers have no ability to properly evaluate the JFK evidence. The Internet CTers are the last people on the planet who should be looking into this case.
Alan Ford now wants to argue that when Oswald said "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir" when answering the question of "Were you in the building at the time?", Oswald really meant this:
"Well, yeah, sort of....I was kinda IN the building, but I was really OUTSIDE on the steps....but I guess you should consider the steps to be IN the building too....I guess....sort of...."
(It's always hysterical when CTers do this IN IS REALLY OUT thing. I get a kick out of it.)
Thanks for confirming that you misquoted Mr Oswald, Mr Von Pein! He never used the word 'inside' Thumb1:
Now! You have given to understand that Mr Oswald's claim to have gone 'outside to watch P. parade'-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
-------------was not hushed up by Captain Fritz.
Kindly point us to where Captain Fritz mentions Mr Oswald's claim. Feel free to range over his WC testimony, his reports, his notes. You're the archival master, this should be no trouble to you! Thumb1:
-
Have you actually read Hosty's note, all Hosty says is that Oswald went out to watch the P.Parade and we know Oswald went outside a few minutes later and would have seen part of the "stalled" P.Parade.
A President's Parade is more than 1 car!
JohnM
Yes, I can just picture Mr Oswald saying, 'Well, I went up to the second floor for a coke, see, then a cop came in and put a gun in my gut, then he and Mr Truly took off up the stairs, then I went through the second-floor office and a lady told me the President had been shot, then I went down to the first floor to have my lunch, then I decided to pop outside to catch the Presidential parade'.
Talk about reaching, Mr Mytton! :D
By the way, I've been meaning to ask you:
How would you explain the fact that there is a dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman despite the fact that he was nowhere near the shadow cast by the western column of the entranceway?
Thumb1:
-
As late as 12/23 a DPD evidence report has Baker running into LHO on the stairway on the third or fourth floor.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker20fritz20report.jpg)
IOW--6. For some reason Truly just got a wild hair up his backside to report Oswald [complete with address] 'missing'.--7. The FBI has this bullet that was found -location confirmed and ballistics analyzed rocketfire! 8. FIBERS coulda-mighta--been linked to the rifle 9. Mrs Harvey Lee Oswald huh? But not Marina? :D 10. How did Willy Fritzo's guys find the alleged location of the BY fakes so quickly? Maybe they were there before hand? All of the above discovered before a Nov 23rd report was typed up :-\ I wish I could have had Henry Wade's phone line tapped back then and recorded for posterity.
I would really really like GC to post the FIRST FIVE items on that cover-up list [page 1] if he will. Is there a document#?
What does Baker noting that the LHO he saw at the DPD homocide office was wearing different clothes than when he ran into him in the TSBD mean?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. BELIN - Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
--
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was this later on that same day?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, it was.
Mr. BELIN - Is there anything else about his clothes that you can remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; I can't.
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN - He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER - He looked like he did not have the same on.
-
Have you actually read Hosty's note, all Hosty says is that Oswald went out to watch the P.Parade and we know Oswald went outside a few minutes later and would have seen part of the "stalled" P.Parade.
A President's Parade is more than 1 car!
JohnM
Your "few minutes" for the JFK Motorcade to exit Dealey Plaza would alter the currently accepted time lines of several assassination Films, Photos, as well as the individuals captured in those images. It was inevitable that You would eventually realize that these accepted time lines are Not legit.
-
Who was lying --Bill Shelley or Roy Truly?
Shelly stated in his sworn affidavit that HE mentioned that Oswald was missing to Truly ...
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0466-001.gif
On the other hand----Truly testified that he told Shelley that Oswald was missing..................DUH
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had. {Did not agree with Fritz' report that while the search was still on, Oswald was reported missing}
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that. {I'll bet}
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.
-
Your "few minutes" for the JFK Motorcade to exit Dealey Plaza would alter the currently accepted time lines of several assassination Films, Photos, as well as the individuals captured in those images. It was inevitable that You would eventually realize that these accepted time lines are Not legit.
I'm prepared to be corrected, where is your footage/photos which shows no traffic on Elm or Houston and which is timestamped a few minutes after the assassination? Thanks in advance.
Since you are a non image posting expert, how long after the assassination was the "accepted time line" of this piece of assassination film?
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xQNKtjw/cars-in-dealey-plazaa.gif)
I didn't label the next image but if the time is accurate then it looks like what I said is a reasonable scenario.
Have you actually read Hosty's note, all Hosty says is that Oswald went out to watch the P.Parade and we know Oswald went outside a few minutes later and would have seen part of the "stalled" P.Parade.
A President's Parade is more than 1 car!
JohnM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/92/a2/3792a2223b09a00ff5033b2a82c27b3f.jpg)
JohnM
-
David Von Pein on Today at 01:59:16 AM:
... The Internet CTers are the last people on the planet who should be looking into this case...
We agree on that and "there is nothing suspect (handwriting debate notwithstanding) about the $21.45 PMO sent to Klein's and deposited at Klein's bank, etc."
Armstrong is not of the internet.
-
Who was lying --Bill Shelley or Roy Truly?
Shelly stated in his sworn affidavit that HE mentioned that Oswald was missing to Truly ...
Indeed! Thumb1:
Btw....Mr Dougherty told the WC that Mr Shelley told him he "thought he saw him (=Mr Oswald) carrying a fairly good-sized package" that morning.
Makes sense-------Mr Oswald brought curtain rods to work that day------they were later found in the building and tested for his fingerprints!
(https://i.imgur.com/tcqb2eS.jpg)
-
How would you explain the fact that there is a dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman despite the fact that he was nowhere near the shadow cast by the western column of the entranceway?
Bumped for Mr Mytton! Thumb1:
-
Bumped for Mr Mytton! Thumb1:
I have no idea what you're talking about, you lost all credibility a long time ago and now you're claiming to be a photo expert, Give me a break.
The problem with the internet is that everybody thinks they're an expert, time to wake up.
JohnM
-
I have no idea what you're talking about, you lost all credibility a long time ago and now you're claiming to be a photo expert, Give me a break.
The problem with the internet is that everybody thinks they're an expert, time to wake up.
JohnM
:D
"I am forced to confirm that I can't explain the dark 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman" would have done just fine, Mr Mytton!
But don't beat yourself up-----neither can anyone else Thumb1:
-
I have no idea what you're talking about, you lost all credibility a long time ago and now you're claiming to be a photo expert, Give me a break.
The problem with the internet is that everybody thinks they're an expert, time to wake up.
JohnM
A person doesn't have to be an expert to look at a photo of the disassembled rifle ( CE 1304) and see with their own eyes that Detective Day was lying when he said he found a palm print on the metal barrel of the rifle. Anybody with normal vision can see that there is a bayonet lug surrounding the barrel at the place that Day claimed he found the palm print. The palm print is one of the key lies that the conspirators fabricated....
-
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker20fritz20report.jpg)
IOW--6. For some reason Truly just got a wild hair up his backside to report Oswald [complete with address] 'missing'.--7. The FBI has this bullet that was found -location confirmed and ballistics analyzed rocketfire! 8. FIBERS coulda-mighta--been linked to the rifle 9. Mrs Harvey Lee Oswald huh? But not Marina? :D 10. How did Willy Fritzo's guys find the alleged location of the BY fakes so quickly? Maybe they were there before hand? All of the above discovered before a Nov 23rd report was typed up :-\ I wish I could have had Henry Wade's phone line tapped back then and recorded for posterity.
I would really really like GC to post the FIRST FIVE items on that cover-up list [page 1] if he will. Is there a document#?
"I would really really like GC to post the FIRST FIVE items on that cover-up list [page 1] if he will. Is there a document#?"
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1512-001.gif
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritz.gif)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1512-002.gif
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritz1.gif)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1512-003.gif
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritz2.gif)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1512-004.gif
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritz3.gif)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1512-005.gif
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritz4.gif)
-
Have you actually read Hosty's note, all Hosty says is that Oswald went out to watch the P.Parade and we know Oswald went outside a few minutes later and would have seen part of the "stalled" P.Parade.
A President's Parade is more than 1 car!
JohnM
Mr Mytton, I rarely agree with anything you post....But this is one of those rare times.... When you're right you're right. The P. Parade was still on the street when Lee left the building .... And there are photos ( film clips) that show a man who I believe is Lee Oswald on the stub street in front of the TSBD.
-
Mr Mytton, I rarely agree with anything you post....But this is one of those rare times.... When you're right you're right. The P. Parade was still on the street when Lee left the building .... And there are photos ( film clips) that show a man who I believe is Lee Oswald on the stub street in front of the TSBD.
::)
It really must take heavy investment in a cherished narrative to parse a sequence of simple words so that they mean something other than their plain sense!
'Then went outside to watch P. parade' means:
Then (i.e. after buying coke in lunchroom and returning to first floor for lunch)
went outside (i.e. through the front door)
to watch (i.e. to be a spectator of)
P. parade (i.e. the Presidential parade).
After JFK was shot, there was no Presidential parade. The words 'watch' and 'parade' are the very last words either Mr Oswald or Agent Hosty would have used to describe 'going outside to see what all the commotion was about'.
It's garbage like this that brings CT 'researchers' down to the level of the Warren Gullibles!
-
If Lee Oswald WAS REALLY INNOCENT of shooting the President, and if Oswald had REALLY BEEN located out on the front steps of the Book Depository Building at the exact moment when JFK was getting shot (as many Internet conspiracists firmly believes is true), then it's virtually impossible to believe that Oswald would have remainded DEAD SILENT about his FACTUAL ALIBI when those live television cameras were staring him in the face on both November 22nd and 23rd.
I love the way that WC fundamentalists think that "what I think an innocent person would do" makes a compelling argument.
-
It wasn't. CTers just can't properly evaluate the evidence, that's all. For example....
And by "properly evaluate", DVP means spin-doctoring, assumptions, and rhetoric.
-
Have you actually read Hosty's note, all Hosty says is that Oswald went out to watch the P.Parade and we know Oswald went outside a few minutes later and would have seen part of the "stalled" P.Parade.
What part of the "parade" was still there at 1:33?
-
I didn't label the next image but if the time is accurate then it looks like what I said is a reasonable scenario.
Are you calling any traffic that came down Elm street after the assassination part of the presidential parade?
-
David Von Pein on Today at 01:59:16 AM:
We agree on that and "there is nothing suspect (handwriting debate notwithstanding) about the $21.45 PMO sent to Klein's and deposited at Klein's bank, etc."
Armstrong is not of the internet.
Deposited at Klein's bank a month before it was "sent to Klein's"? How does that work?
-
::)
It really must take heavy investment in a cherished narrative to parse a sequence of simple words so that they mean something other than their plain sense!
'Then went outside to watch P. parade' means:
Then (i.e. after buying coke in lunchroom and returning to first floor for lunch)
went outside (i.e. through the front door)
to watch (i.e. to be a spectator of)
P. parade (i.e. the Presidential parade).
After JFK was shot, there was no Presidential parade. The words 'watch' and 'parade' are the very last words either Mr Oswald or Agent Hosty would have used to describe 'going outside to see what all the commotion was about'.
It's garbage like this that brings CT 'researchers' down to the level of the Warren Gullibles!
The reverse of when you're right , you're right ...(As I believe Mr Mytton is in this case. ) When you're wrong, you're wrong, as I believe you are in this case ....
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
It really must take heavy investment in a cherished narrative to parse a sequence of simple words so that they mean something other than their plain sense!
Perhaps you should check the accuracy of Hosty's notes...... Did Lee go to lunch at 12:00 noon?
-
The reverse of when you're right , you're right ...(As I believe Mr Mytton is in this case. ) When you're wrong, you're wrong, as I believe you are in this case ....
(https://i.imgur.com/hxwYE1D.jpg)
It really must take heavy investment in a cherished narrative to parse a sequence of simple words so that they mean something other than their plain sense!
Perhaps you should check the accuracy of Hosty's notes...... Did Lee go to lunch at 12:00 noon?
Hosty wrote that Lee went to lunch at noon.... Lee did NOT go to lunch at noon
Hosty wrote that Lee went to the second floor to get a Coke to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor... We know that the 1st floor lunchroom was occupied by several TSBD employees until at least 12:15....and none of them said that Lee was eating lunch while they were there in the Domino Room.
Hosty said that after lunch Lee said he went outside to watch the P. Parade..... Since Le had to have eaten his lunch after the other TSBD employees left the Domino Room, obviously he ate his lunch after 12:15 .....and he was there in the D Room when Jarman and Norman walked by at about 12 :26 Then he went to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke, and returned to the D room finished his lunch and went outside to watch the parade.
Who knows if ther was any of the parade still streaming past?.....It seems likely because photos taken several minutes after the shooting show the busses still passing down Elm street ...and they were part of the P Parade.
-
Are you calling any traffic that came down Elm street after the assassination part of the presidential parade?
Yes, Mr Iacoletti, it seems Mr Mytton has been reduced to this! :D
-
Hosty wrote that Lee went to lunch at noon.... Lee did NOT go to lunch at noon
Hosty wrote that Lee went to the second floor to get a Coke to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor... We know that the 1st floor lunchroom was occupied by several TSBD employees until at least 12:15....and none of them said that Lee was eating lunch while they were there in the Domino Room.
Hosty said that after lunch Lee said he went outside to watch the P. Parade..... Since Le had to have eaten his lunch after the other TSBD employees left the Domino Room, obviously he ate his lunch after 12:15 .....and he was there in the D Room when Jarman and Norman walked by at about 12 :26 Then he went to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke, and returned to the D room finished his lunch and went outside to watch the parade.
Who knows if ther was any of the parade still streaming past?.....It seems likely because photos taken several minutes after the shooting show the busses still passing down Elm street ...and they were part of the P Parade.
Then he went to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke, ( where he was seen by Marrion Baker and Roy Truly) and returned to the D room, finished his lunch and went outside to watch the parade.
I suddenly realized that Hosty's note seems to rebut Mrs Reid's claim that she saw Le walk through the office area after the encounter with Baker and Truly....Because the shortest route from the 2nd floor lunchroom to the Domino Room was by way of the stairs in the NW corner of the building.....If Lee returned to the D Room as Hosty wrote he probably wouldn't have walked through the 2nd floor office area. And Lee most certainly never ever mentioned meeting Mrs Reid after he had been left by Baker and Truly.
-
Who knows if ther was any of the parade still streaming past?.....It seems likely because photos taken several minutes after the shooting show the busses still passing down Elm street ...and they were part of the P Parade.
'So the President's been shot, eh? And there's screaming outside. And I've just had a cop put a gun in my gut. Never mind, maybe I might catch a bus or two parading down the street!' :D
Let it go, Mr Cakebread, and resign yourself to The Game-Changing Fact That Was Hushed Up By Fritz And Friends:
Mr Oswald claimed to have gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.
He broke for lunch around about noon........
He went down to the first floor.......
He went upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom......
He came back downstairs......
He saw Messrs Jarman & Norman re-enter the building......
He then went outside to watch the Presidential parade.
Here he is, just behind Mr Lovelady:
(https://i.imgur.com/PJ3Cq1Q.jpg)
You think it's a coincidence that the only person in all the images captured that day who gets a magic shadow on his person is Mr Lovelady? Come on!
-
Yes, Mr Iacoletti, it seems Mr Mytton has been reduced to this! :D
Alan, has it occurred to you that simply because Lee told the interrogators that after he finished his lunch he went outside to watch the P parade does NOT mean that there was any parade still passing by..... But How was Lee to know that?....He simply said that that is what he intended to do after he finished his lunch.
-
Alan, has it occurred to you that simply because Lee told the interrogators that after he finished his lunch he went outside to watch the P parade does NOT mean that there was any parade still passing by..... But How was Lee to know that?....He simply said that that is what he intended to do after he finished his lunch.
He thinks there's a business-as-usual Presidential parade going by just after he's had a cop put a gun to his gut and a Depository employee tell him the President has just been shot?
Ridiculous!
Besides, if his intention had been to catch a view of JFK going by he wouldn't gone up to the second-floor lunchroom and waited until after 12.30pm before thinking to go out front.
Presumably he lingered inside on the first floor, listening out for noise levels from the crowd and perhaps (if Ms Carolyn Arnold's statement to the FBI is anything to go by) taking periodic looks out the glass front door, and then
-----------shortly after seeing Messrs. Norman and Jarman re-enter the building-----------
went out that front door
------------> where Mr Wiegman captured his image on film.
Thumb1:
-
'So the President's been shot, eh? And there's screaming outside. And I've just had a cop put a gun in my gut. Never mind, maybe I might catch a bus or two parading down the street!' :D
Let it go, Mr Cakebread, and resign yourself to The Game-Changing Fact That Was Hushed Up By Fritz And Friends:
Mr Oswald claimed to have gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.
He broke for lunch around about noon........
He went down to the first floor.......
He went upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom......
He came back downstairs......
He saw Messrs Jarman & Norman re-enter the building......
He then went outside to watch the Presidential parade.
Here he is, just behind Mr Lovelady:
(https://i.imgur.com/PJ3Cq1Q.jpg)
You think it's a coincidence that the only person in all the images captured that day who gets a magic shadow on his person is Mr Lovelady? Come on!
'So the President's been shot, eh? And there's screaming outside.
Huh?.....If lee was at the rear of the building do you think he could hear "screaming outside" ??
And I've just had a cop put a gun in my gut. Your imagination does not constitute proof that Baker stuck a gun in Lee's gut....That's a bit that the LNer's invented to make it appear that Baker suspected that Lee was a fugitive ( or something) IOW...It's BS!
Never mind, maybe I might catch a bus or two parading down the street!' :D
Riiiiight!..... So you think that Lee was clairvoyant and knew that he had missed seeing the Pres???
-
I wouldn't put it past Oswald to milk his time in the spotlight even if innocent.
-
I wouldn't put it past Oswald to milk his time in the spotlight even if innocent.
I would put it past you to explain why there is a dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film:
(https://i.imgur.com/DczbXxb.jpg)
Prove me wrong! Thumb1:
-
'So the President's been shot, eh? And there's screaming outside. And I've just had a cop put a gun in my gut. Never mind, maybe I might catch a bus or two parading down the street!' :D
Let it go, Mr Cakebread, and resign yourself to The Game-Changing Fact That Was Hushed Up By Fritz And Friends:
Mr Oswald claimed to have gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.
He broke for lunch around about noon........
He went down to the first floor.......
He went upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom......
He came back downstairs......
He saw Messrs Jarman & Norman re-enter the building......
He then went outside to watch the Presidential parade.
Here he is, just behind Mr Lovelady:
(https://i.imgur.com/PJ3Cq1Q.jpg)
You think it's a coincidence that the only person in all the images captured that day who gets a magic shadow on his person is Mr Lovelady? Come on!
Here he is, just behind Mr Lovelady:
(https://i.imgur.com/PJ3Cq1Q.jpg)
Really??...That's Lee Oswald? Are you sure,...... That looks like Casper the Ghost to me.....
-
I would put it past you to explain why there is a dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film:
(https://i.imgur.com/DczbXxb.jpg)
Prove me wrong! Thumb1:
Either my vision is fuzzy or you've studied at 'The Ralph Cinque School of How to Post Blobs of Pixels and Claim They Are What You What Them to Be'
-
He thinks there's a business-as-usual Presidential parade going by just after he's had a cop put a gun to his gut and a Depository employee tell him the President has just been shot?
Ridiculous!
Besides, if his intention had been to catch a view of JFK going by he wouldn't gone up to the second-floor lunchroom and waited until after 12.30pm before thinking to go out front.
Presumably he lingered inside on the first floor, listening out for noise levels from the crowd and perhaps (if Ms Carolyn Arnold's statement to the FBI is anything to go by) taking periodic looks out the glass front door, and then
-----------shortly after seeing Messrs. Norman and Jarman re-enter the building-----------
went out that front door
------------> where Mr Wiegman captured his image on film.
Thumb1:
I strongly disagree with your ideas..... But that's OK.... As long as we agree that Lee Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor at the time of the murder, that's the important thing.
-
Either my vision is fuzzy or you've studied at 'The Ralph Cinque School of How to Post Blobs of Pixels and Claim They Are What You What Them to Be'
Another Lone Nutter unable to explain why there is a dark shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman! Thumb1:
Still waiting for Mr Mytton's Funky Graphics rebuttal of the observation that this shadow cannot be a natural shadow...
-
I strongly disagree with your ideas..... But that's OK.... As long as we agree that Lee Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor at the time of the murder, that's the important thing.
That's fine as far as it goes, Mr Cakebread, but what's most important of all is establishing where exactly Mr Oswald was. And clinging to old ideas-----like most CTers and all Lone Nutters do-----is a block to that endeavor!
-
Anything will do as long as we also agree he DID NOT carry that 3 x 5 index card on his clipboard.
Thumb1:
Since I don't believe that anybody carried the 3 X 5 card on a clipboard ....I have no trouble agreeing with you Mr Beck.
At least you seem to be acknowledging the dimensions( 3" X 5" ) of the small white card..... Some folks refuse to accept that the dimensions ( which are easily verified) are 3 inches by five inches....
-
That's fine as far as it goes, Mr Cakebread, but what's most important of all is establishing where exactly Mr Oswald was. And clinging to old ideas-----like most CTers and all Lone Nutters do-----is a block to that endeavor!
clinging to old ideas-
Please Explain......
-
Here he is, just behind Mr Lovelady:
(https://i.imgur.com/PJ3Cq1Q.jpg)
Really??...That's Lee Oswald? Are you sure,...... That looks like Casper the Ghost to me.....
Yes, I am sure because that is the very area-----Mr Lovelady's right side-----where the impossible shadow on Mr Lovelady falls.
(https://i.imgur.com/I2vzTsv.jpg)
And look how blatant the addition of the impossible shadow is in the later frames where Mr Lovelady has moved downwards!
(https://i.imgur.com/pGVqDbF.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
clinging to old ideas-
Please Explain......
You made up your mind years ago and refuse to be budged from these old conclusions.
Nothing personal!
-
"I would really really like GC to post the FIRST FIVE items on that cover-up list [page 1] if he will. Is there a document#?"
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1512-001.gif
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritz.gif)
Item #1..."Partially hidden"--so it could be found more easily I would guess. :-\ #2 "The cartridges were protected"? Really? I understand from previous posts [not really ever refuted by the ODIAs] that the shell cases had everybody's prints on them but Oswald's. #3... It seems like only Oswald's prints were ever searched for. #4..."A palm print and a partial print" --doesn't say whose ::)
#5...The paper bag story---a desperately concocted fable.
-
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritz2.gif)
#11...How convenient for those guys to find these ads that were months and months old and couldn't possibly be needed anymore. #12 & #13...Absolutely false! No mention was made of an ID until much later... long after Oswald was arrested. #14-#15-#16-#17 & #18 proved absolutely nothing.
One thing is obvious...This was all a table of contents for the Warren Report. Written [SERIOUSLY?] the very next day after the assassination. Merely agreed upon and rubber stamped by the JEHFBI and the Warren Commission.
-
The timeline was constructed by Belin because Mrs Reid had made an EARLY FBI statement of having seen Oswald enter the 2nd floor office.
Mrs Reid however had not given an actual time estimate herself, rather just a more vague "left immediately to return" to the TSBD right after Mr.Campbell had left her, and when she saw people "beginning to fall"
It probably rapidly became apparent to Belin that Mrs Reid, just as Dorothy Garner, could be a disaster for their theory that Oswald was the shooter, so Belin hid the memo about Garner and took control early on with Mrs Reid, not letting Mrs Reid do the timing, but himself in control of the stop watch, which he showed her at beginning and end. Mrs Reid saw, therefore 2 fixed times but for all she knew, it could have been a mere 60 seconds,not 2 minutes, since a stopwatch can be advanced a whole extra minute easily before its then shown again to Mrs Reid.
-
I'm prepared to be corrected, where is your footage/photos which shows no traffic on Elm or Houston and which is timestamped a few minutes after the assassination? Thanks in advance.
Since you are a non image posting expert, how long after the assassination was the "accepted time line" of this piece of assassination film?
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xQNKtjw/cars-in-dealey-plazaa.gif)
I didn't label the next image but if the time is accurate then it looks like what I said is a reasonable scenario.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/92/a2/3792a2223b09a00ff5033b2a82c27b3f.jpg)
JohnM
YOU said it took a "few minutes" for the JFK Motorcade to exit Dealey Plaza. If you are taking Back Water on that statement just say so. Stop flailing around like a fish out of water. You look like Unger on that rare occasion that he comes forward with a Sincere Opinion/Observation and then suffers getting slapped backed into line by the LN's back stage. In order to stand alone, Courage and Character are required.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/h5NScRz.jpg)
-
Alan, which of the blob like element other than Lovelady do you now think might be Oswald on the front steps?
-
Now!
Mr Oswald wanted to see JFK, but he didn't want to go out onto the steps and wait with all those co-workers there. He wasn't a mixer. Hated smalltalk. Wasn't much liked.
So he kept an ear and an eye out until it was obvious the motorcade was close to arriving, and then popped out.
It's very possible that Mr Lovelady never noticed Mr Oswald's presence during the shooting. However, he did notice the apparent altercation between Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly by the front door shortly afterwards.
Here's what Mr James Jarman told the HSCA on 9/25/77:
"There was a Billy Lovelady standing on the steps.... Oswald was coming out the door and Lovelady said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building. Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright"
If Mr Lovelady had not noticed Mr Oswald's presence just behind him during the shooting----------
(https://i.imgur.com/NDWVNCR.jpg)
------------then it would explain why he misinterpreted the Baker-Oswald exchange as Mr Oswald being 'stopped' by the officer.
All Officer Baker wanted was someone to show him where the stairs were. Hence 'Do you work here?'
All of that later got transported up to the second-floor lunchroom and Mr Oswald's actual claims garbled beyond recognition.
Thankfully, though, this has turned up and it tells us what Mr Oswald really said!
(https://i.imgur.com/8UOq8P2.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
Alan, which of the blob like element other than Lovelady do you now think might be Oswald on the front steps?
Try reading my recent posts, Mr Mason! Thumb1:
-
YOU said it took a "few minutes" for the JFK Motorcade to exit Dealey Plaza. If you are taking Back Water on that statement just say so. Stop flailing around like a fish out of water. You look like Unger on that rare occasion that he comes forward with a Sincere Opinion/Observation and then suffers getting slapped backed into line by the LN's back stage. In order to stand alone, Courage and Character are required.
YOU said it took a "few minutes" for the JFK Motorcade to exit Dealey Plaza.
Yes I did and I even I provided evidence of what was vehicles on Elm street supposedly @12:40, whereas you said their was a photographic/film record that could show what was happening a few minutes later but as usual your mouth exceeds your abilities.
If you are taking Back Water on that statement just say so.
Where's your evidence that you said you had?
Stop flailing around like a fish out of water
After the last sentence, another lazy "water" reference loses all impact.
You look like Unger
Thanks, I wish I had half his photographic knowledge.
In order to stand alone, Courage and Character are required.
I see, said the blind man.
JohnM
-
What part of the "parade" was still there at 1:33?
1:33?
JohnM
-
Are you calling any traffic that came down Elm street after the assassination part of the presidential parade?
How do you know what Oswald would interpret as a P.Parade?
JohnM
-
It's very possible that Mr Lovelady never noticed Mr Oswald's presence during the shooting.
However!
It's very impossible that Mr Frazier did not notice Mr Oswald's presence during the shooting
---------------------> Mr Oswald was right in front of him!
Helps explain why researchers have had to contend over the years with what Mr Royell Storing calls "the ever changing story told by Buell Wesley Frazier"! Thumb1:
-
It's very possible that Mr Lovelady never noticed Mr Oswald's presence during the shooting.
In his HSCA interview Mr Lovelady was asked could Mr Oswald have been on those steps without his (Mr Lovelady's) noticing him. Mr Lovelady's response? "Could have."
I think that's what happened-------------and, because of the Altgens photograph, the chance close proximity of Messrs Lovelady and Oswald during the shooting was to follow Mr Lovelady around for the rest of his life.
(https://i.imgur.com/Oxfit0u.jpg)
-
Now!
One of the most curious mini-episodes in this whole affair is this definitive statement in this 3/2/64 FBI report:
(https://i.imgur.com/oupPbQ7.jpg)
Mr Lovelady later denied having told the FBI this------------he just arrived for the photo session in any old shirt.
(https://i.imgur.com/CaXDHxa.jpg)
Unlikely! Would the FBI, with their sensitivity to the Altgens controversy, have been so casual as to drastically misunderstand Mr Lovelady-----or to fail to have communicated to Mr Lovelady beforehand that he was to wear his 11/22/63 shirt for the photographs?
Theory!
The FBI gave Mr Lovelady the short-sleeved shirt to wear* because they needed him in short sleeves
------------> because the Wiegman film showed Mr Oswald's exposed right arm (he had his sleeves rolled up**) appearing to come out of Mr Lovelady's body!
Then, as soon as the Wiegman frame was... 'enhanced' and evidence of Mr Oswald's presence blackened out, Mr Lovelady's red plaid shirt could come out of the closet!
* Side Bar!: Just wondering aloud... Did the FBI give the same shirt to Mr Eddie Piper for his photo?
(https://i.imgur.com/cgnzQNu.png)
** Mr Oswald in short sleeves would of course lend further support to the PrayerMan=LHO claim
Thumb1:
-
Now!
One of the most curious mind-episodes in this whole affair is this definitive statement in this 3/2/64 FBI report:
(https://i.imgur.com/oupPbQ7.jpg)
Mr Lovelady later denied having told the FBI this------------he just arrived for the photo session in any old shirt.
(https://i.imgur.com/CaXDHxa.jpg)
It's a shame that you're so recalcitrant Mr Ford.... You could be one of the best researchers of this case.....
Unlikely! Would the FBI, with their sensitivity to the Altgens controversy, have been so casual as to drastically misunderstand Mr Lovelady-----or to fail to have communicated to Mr Lovelady beforehand that he was to wear his 11/22/63 shirt for the photographs?
Theory!
The FBI gave Mr Lovelady the short-sleeved shirt to wear* because they needed him in short sleeves
------------> because the Wiegman film showed Mr Oswald's exposed right arm (he had his sleeves rolled up**) appearing to come out of Mr Lovelady's body!
Then, as soon as the Wiegman frame was... 'enhanced' and evidence of Mr Oswald's presence blackened out, Mr Lovelady's red plaid shirt could come out of the closet!
* Just wondering aloud... Did the FBI give the same shirt to Mr Eddie Piper for his photo?
(https://i.imgur.com/DCMdqiX.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/CaXDHxa.jpg)
** Mr Oswald in short sleeves would of course lend further support to the PrayerMan=LHO claim
Thumb1:
-
How do you know what Oswald would interpret as a P.Parade?
Because in your narrative, Reid had already told Oswald that the president was shot. So he then decides to go outside and watch the P. Parade?
-
Baker was made to cross out 'drinking a coke'....
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
-
Yes I did and I even I provided evidence of what was vehicles on Elm street supposedly @12:40, whereas you said their was a photographic/film record that could show what was happening a few minutes later but as usual your mouth exceeds your abilities.
Where's your evidence that you said you had?
After the last sentence, another lazy "water" reference loses all impact.
Thanks, I wish I had half his photographic knowledge.
I see, said the blind man.
JohnM
JOHN - You well know that "vehicles on Elm St" at roughly 12:40 were NOT part of the JFK Motorcade/Parade. When Darnell filmed the BUS and that Cop Car going under the Triple underpass THAT was the Official End of the JFK Motorcade. If you have doubts, just look up the schematic of the JFK motorcade. You said it took "a few minutes" for the JFK Motorcade/Parade to exit Dealey Plaza. If you want to retract Your Claim and the ensuing timelines of Images and Individuals that claim Altered, just do so. STOP trying to manipulate the vehicles that were Officially included/documented as being in the JFK Motorcade/Parade.
-
Baker was made to cross out 'drinking a coke'....
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
Yes....You're right.... Baker was deep into the lie created by his superiors when he appeared before the warren Commission.. So it was no big deal for him to cross out the "drinking a coke" entry that was deliberately written into that affidavit by the FBI agent who actually wrote the affidavit. If that entry was not correct,the agent could easily have rewritten the affidavit and omitted that "drinking a coke " entry....but the scratch out ( which left the entry still readable) was the whole idea behind that key piece of the deception.
-
Because in your narrative, Reid had already told Oswald that the president was shot. So he then decides to go outside and watch the P. Parade?
No, in the actually what happened narrative, Oswald was watching the motorcade from the 6th floor and knew precisely that he shot Kennedy, so Reid's comments would have had zero impact on Oswald.
JohnM
-
JOHN - You well know that "vehicles on Elm St" at roughly 12:40 were NOT part of the JFK Motorcade/Parade. When Darnell filmed the BUS and that Cop Car going under the Triple underpass THAT was the Official End of the JFK Motorcade. If you have doubts, just look up the schematic of the JFK motorcade. You said it took "a few minutes" for the JFK Motorcade/Parade to exit Dealey Plaza. If you want to retract Your Claim and the ensuing timelines of Images and Individuals that claim Altered, just do so. STOP trying to manipulate the vehicles that were Officially included/documented as being in the JFK Motorcade/Parade.
When discussing the visual record you need to illustrate and prove your evidence, asking me to find your evidence is incredibly lazy and has a huge impact on any credibility that you had left.
Btw what was the exact timestamp of the Darnell footage I posted?
JohnM
-
No, in the actually what happened narrative,
LOL
Oswald was watching the motorcade from the 6th floor and knew precisely that he shot Kennedy, so Reid's comments would have had zero impact on Oswald.
So much for your excuse about what the Hosty notes meant.
-
When discussing the visual record you need to illustrate and prove your evidence, asking me to find your evidence is incredibly lazy and has a huge impact on any credibility that you had left.
Btw what was the exact timestamp of the Darnell footage I posted?
JohnM
Your 12:40 Proclamation regarding the JFK Motorcade being inside Dealey Plaza absolutely Shatters the accepted timelines assigned to Assassination Films, Photos, and the individuals contained therein. I know it's Not easy for You to go on the record and reverse a course you have followed for a very long time. You are to be commended for your courage and character.
-
Your 12:40 Proclamation regarding the JFK Motorcade being inside Dealey Plaza absolutely Shatters the accepted timelines assigned to Assassination Films, Photos, and the individuals contained therein. I know it's Not easy for You to go on the record and reverse a course you have followed for a very long time. You are to be commended for your courage and character.
From my very first reply to you, I said I would be happy to admit that I was wrong as long as you could post some images of no traffic on Houston/Elm and so far days later you are still giving your worthless opinion.
And since you've had plenty of time, have you worked out the time of the Darnell footage that I posted?
Btw at the end of the day there is no question of what Oswald saw because from the 6th floor he saw the Presidential Limo roar off down Elm street.
JohnM
-
From my very first reply to you, I said I would be happy to admit that I was wrong as long as you could post some images of no traffic on Houston/Elm and so far days later you still are giving your worthless opinion.
And since you've had plenty of time, have you worked out the time of the Darnell footage that I posted?
Btw at the end of the day there is no question of what Oswald saw because from the 6th floor he saw the Presidential Limo roar off down Elm street.
JohnM
Two bald men fighting over hair gel! :D
Meanwhile! Back in the real world-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/8dxBHIq.jpg)
Except Mr Oswald wasn't 'rushing out' of the building-------he'd been there for the P. parade, right behind Mr Lovelady! Thumb1:
(https://i.imgur.com/h3IAjDY.jpg)
And Officer Baker wasn't 'stopping' him----------he was asking if he worked there so he could show him the way to the nearest stairs! Thumb1:
Mr Lovelady saw the interaction between Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly and (on a charitable reading) misunderstood it
------------he assumed that Mr Oswald had only just then come to the front door.
Mr Lovelady told Mr James Jarman what he'd seen, and
------------------Mr Jarman told the HSCA all about it in 1977:
"There was a Billy Lovelady standing on the steps.... Oswald was coming out the door and Lovelady said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building. Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright...."
If Mr Lovelady really did see Officer Baker "sen(d Oswald) back in the building"-----------i.e. grab him and urgently pull him in with him through the glass door----------then the incident where Officer Baker asked Mr Oswald where the stairs were really did indeed take place in the vestibule or front lobby. Thank you, Mr Harry D. Holmes! Thumb1:
And! For all this to happen requires Mr Oswald to be somewhere that would make him a person for Mr Baker to grab
-----------> Mr Oswald's candidacy for PrayerManInDarnell gets another nice lil' boost, thank you very much! Thumb1:
Question!
What moved Mr Truly to tell FBI agents this the evening of the assassination?
"...he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there..."
Of course you didn't see anyone there, Mr Truly-----------it's the front lobby, for Pete's sake! So...........why are you mentioning this to us?
:D
-
Two bald men fighting over hair gel! :D
Meanwhile! Back in the real world-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/8dxBHIq.jpg)
Except Mr Oswald wasn't 'rushing out' of the building-------he'd been there for the P. parade, right behind Mr Lovelady! Thumb1:
(https://i.imgur.com/h3IAjDY.jpg)
And Officer Baker wasn't 'stopping' him----------he was asking if he worked there so he could show him the way to the nearest stairs! Thumb1:
Mr Lovelady saw the interaction between Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly and (on a charitable reading) misunderstood it
------------he assumed that Mr Oswald had only just then come to the front door.
Mr Lovelady told Mr James Jarman what he'd seen, and
------------------Mr Jarman told the HSCA all about it in 1977:
"There was a Billy Lovelady standing on the steps.... Oswald was coming out the door and Lovelady said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building. Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright...."
If Mr Lovelady really did see Officer Baker "sen(d Oswald) back in the building"-----------i.e. grab him and urgently pull him in with him through the glass door----------then the incident where Officer Baker asked Mr Oswald where the stairs were really did indeed take place in the vestibule or front lobby. Thank you, Mr Harry D. Holmes! Thumb1:
And! For all this to happen requires Mr Oswald to be somewhere that would make him a person for Mr Baker to grab
-----------> Mr Oswald's candidacy for PrayerManInDarnell gets another nice lil' boost, thank you very much! Thumb1:
Question!
What moved Mr Truly to tell FBI agents this the evening of the assassination?
"...he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there..."
Of course you didn't see anyone there, Mr Truly-----------it's the front lobby, for Pete's sake! So...........why are you mentioning this to us?
:D
Mr Ford, you are your own worst critic.... You could be one of the best, but your continued attempts to prove that Lee was outside during the shooting is preventing that. You are much like Rob Caprio....He had a lot of knowledge about the case, but he also had formed some really absurd ideas about the case.
-
Except Mr Oswald wasn't 'rushing out' of the building-------he'd been there for the P. parade! Thumb1:
Alan, don't give me the typical BS but if you were watching the President, out in the open, alongside your workmates as the President was driving by and then suddenly you were accused of murdering the President what would you say to the Press? I know I would be saying "I was outside watching the President with my friends" but Oswald told us he was inside at the time because obviously he had no alibi.
JohnM
-
Alan, don't give me the typical BS but if you were watching the President, out in the open, alongside your workmates as the President was driving by and then suddenly you were accused of murdering the President what would you say to the Press? I know I would be saying "I was outside watching the President with my friends" but Oswald told us he was inside at the time because obviously he had no alibi.
JohnM
Depends on what you've been told you're being charged with! How many times do you need this explained to you, Mr Mytton? ::)
And no, Mr Oswald never 'told us he was inside at the time'. Your pal Mr Von Pein crawled back under his rock the last time he had that canard thrown back in his face! :D
Now, Mr Mytton! See this impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side?
(https://i.imgur.com/PPuhPjh.jpg)
It betokens the final expiration of your dearly beloved narrative of events!
If you disagree.............explain it! Thumb1:
-
Mr Ford, you are your own worst critic.... You could be one of the best, but your continued attempts to prove that Lee was outside during the shooting is preventing that. You are much like Rob Caprio....He had a lot of knowledge about the case, but he also had formed some really absurd ideas about the case.
Looking forward to your explanation of the dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film, Mr Cakebread!
Go on-----don't just tell me I'm wrong, show me! Thumb1:
-
Depends on what you've been told you're being charged with! How many times do you need this explained to you, Mr Mytton? ::)
At the midnight conference he's told that he's been charged with the murder of the President and Oswald's reaction is typical of a guilty man whereas you or I would be saying we have a rock solid alibi.
Btw Oswald agreeing with the reporter that he was inside means that Oswald was saying he was inside and all the CT spin can't change what is a straight forward question and answer, and whatever happened to saying that the steps were actually inside the building, another day another guess? Hehehe.
JohnM
-
Looking forward to your explanation of the dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film, Mr Cakebread!
Go on-----don't just tell me I'm wrong, show me! Thumb1:
No ...YOU show me a clear photo of Lee on the steps or the doorway during the shooting......
-
At the midnight conference he's told that he's been charged with the murder of the President and Oswald's reaction is typical of a guilty man whereas you or I would be saying we have a rock solid alibi.
Btw Oswald agreeing with the reporter that he was inside means that Oswald was saying he was inside and all the CT spin can't change what is a straight forward question and answer, and whatever happened to saying that the steps were actually inside the building, another day another guess? Hehehe.
JohnM
'Mytton's evasions proves (sic) his discomfort'! :D
Now!
"I, Mr. John Mytton, can easily explain the dark shadow down Mr Billy Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film. It is obviously due to ________________________________________"
Over to you, Mr Mytton! Thumb1:
-
At the midnight conference he's told that he's been charged with the murder of the President and Oswald's reaction is typical of a guilty man whereas you or I would be saying we have a rock solid alibi.
Btw Oswald agreeing with the reporter that he was inside means that Oswald was saying he was inside and all the CT spin can't change what is a straight forward question and answer, and whatever happened to saying that the steps were actually inside the building, another day another guess? Hehehe.
JohnM
At the midnight conference he's told that he's been charged with the murder of the President and Oswald's reaction is typical of a guilty man
This is Monthy Python gold; he is guilty because he looked guilty! Pathetic.....
whereas you or I would be saying we have a rock solid alibi.
Well, I find it not a bit strange that somebody is taken back and stunted by the news that he is charged with a crime, whereas having an instant reply, like "I have a rock solid alibi" indicates preparation and a preparedness for such an event, which of course would indicate guilt (see how easy that is?).
Btw Oswald agreeing with the reporter that he was inside means that Oswald was saying he was inside and all the CT spin can't change what is a straight forward question and answer, and whatever happened to saying that the steps were actually inside the building, another day another guess? Hehehe.
Never mind the circumstances under which a question is asked, innocent people are always 100% quick on their feet and always give a 100% complete and correct answer to every question, right John?
-
No ...YOU show me a clear photo of Lee on the steps or the doorway during the shooting......
So you can't? Got it! Thumb1:
If the Wiegman frames hadn't been messed with (=the thing you can't offer a counter-explanation for!), Mr Oswald would be as recognizable as Mr Lovelady.
But thankfully----------------we can still see he's there!
(https://i.imgur.com/xVnaR5E.jpg)
You're just too stuck in your ways to understand this, because you cling to the long-discredited lunchroom story----------------and pretend this bombshell document wasn't recently uncovered:
(https://i.imgur.com/6ICmD6A.jpg)
Nothing personal!
-
Btw Oswald agreeing with the reporter that he was inside means that Oswald was saying he was inside and all the CT spin can't change what is a straight forward question and answer, and whatever happened to saying that the steps were actually inside the building, another day another guess? Hehehe.
Never mind the circumstances under which a question is asked, innocent people are always 100% quick on their feet and always give a 100% complete and correct answer to every question, right John?
Yes, Mr Weidmann, it was an off the cuff response from Mr Oswald, but let's not let Mr Mytton away with the lie that Mr Oswald or the reporter used the world 'inside'! Thumb1:
-
So you can't? Got it! Thumb1:
If the Wiegman frames hadn't been messed with (=the thing you can't offer a counter-explanation for!), Mr Oswald would be as recognizable as Mr Lovelady.
But thankfully----------------we can still see he's there!
(https://i.imgur.com/xVnaR5E.jpg)
You're just too stuck in your ways to understand this, because you cling to the long-discredited lunchroom story----------------and pretend this bombshell document wasn't recently uncovered:
(https://i.imgur.com/6ICmD6A.jpg)
Nothing personal!
That's not a "bombshell document".....Simply because Hosty used the " P." in referring to the parade does NOT mean that Lee said he went outside to watch the ( President's ) parade. Is this too difficult for you , Mr Ford?
-
Looking forward to your explanation of the dark strip down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film, Mr Cakebread!
Go on-----don't just tell me I'm wrong, show me! Thumb1:
There's a very good reason Nobody will engage you regarding that Dark Strip. They do Not have a shred of Evidence to refute your position. If there was even the hint of that Jet Black Strip possibly being a shadow, Mytton would have jumped at the opportunity to post at least 1 of his cartoon visual aids. You got 'em.
-
From my very first reply to you, I said I would be happy to admit that I was wrong as long as you could post some images of no traffic on Houston/Elm and so far days later you are still giving your worthless opinion.
So you really are equating any traffic on Elm with the presidential parade.
Btw at the end of the day there is no question of what Oswald saw because from the 6th floor he saw the Presidential Limo roar off down Elm street.
LOL
-
Mr Ford, you are your own worst critic.... You could be one of the best, but your continued attempts to prove that Lee was outside during the shooting is preventing that. You are much like Rob Caprio....He had a lot of knowledge about the case, but he also had formed some really absurd ideas about the case.
Says Mr. “red signal rings”.
-
At the midnight conference he's told that he's been charged with the murder of the President and Oswald's reaction is typical of a guilty man
LOL
-
So you really are equating any traffic on Elm with the presidential parade.
It really doesn't matter because Oswald was watching the Presidential Parade through the scope of his rifle.
JohnM
-
That's not a "bombshell document".....Simply because Hosty used the " P." in referring to the parade does NOT mean that Lee said he went outside to watch the ( President's ) parade. Is this too difficult for you , Mr Ford?
:D
Document: "Then went outside to watch P. parade"
Mr Cakebread's exegesis: "Doesn't mean 'went outside to watch P. parade'"
Your heart's in the right place, Mr Cakebread, but I'm afraid your head's all in a muddle. You're as blind to inconvenient data as the most hardcore of the Warren Gullibles!
-
It really doesn't matter because Oswald was watching the Presidential Parade through the scope of his rifle.
JohnM
"I, Mr. John Mytton, can easily explain the dark shadow down Mr Billy Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film. It is obviously due to ___________________________________"
Thumb1:
-
There's a very good reason Nobody will engage you regarding that Dark Strip. They do Not have a shred of Evidence to refute your position. If there was even the hint of that Jet Black Strip possibly being a shadow, Mytton would have jumped at the opportunity to post at least 1 of his cartoon visual aids. You got 'em.
Looks that way alright! Thumb1:
-
It really doesn't matter because Oswald was watching the Presidential Parade through the scope of his rifle.
JohnM
Glad to see you now understand the meaning of the words 'Presidential parade', Mr Mytton. Hope for you yet! Thumb1:
-
So you really are equating any traffic on Elm with the presidential parade.
LOL
Of course Mytton is Now forced to "equate any traffic on Elm with the presidential parade". If he takes Any other position, he is then Locked into his original statement that the actual JFK Motorcade exited Dealey Plaza "several minutes" After the Kill Shot. This "Several Minutes" would alter current time lines assigned to assassination films, photos, and the individuals contained on those images. Plus, we then are also into a possible JFK Limo STOP on Elm St. Mytton is trapped in a box of his own making and getting all kinds of flack back stage from the Pioneer JFK "Research" Community that has sat back and simply rubber stamped the WC Hog Wash for 55+ years.
-
It really doesn't matter because Oswald was watching the Presidential Parade through the scope of his rifle.
Cite source/evidence :-\
Then go to reply #88 and tell me who was lying...Truly or Shelley.
-
Says Mr. “red signal rings”.
I understand that some folks think the idea that the red rings on the windows had no significance..... or they believe they were a signal for the fire department.
I believe they were there for a very definite reason.
Do you have any original ideas at all Johnny?
-
I understand that some folks think the idea that the red rings on the windows had no significance..... or they believe they were a signal for the fire department.
I believe they were there for a very definite reason.
Do you have any original ideas at all Johnny?
You means fabricating stories for which there is no evidence whatsoever?
No, I don’t do that.
-
You means fabricating stories for which there is no evidence whatsoever?
No, I don’t do that.
As Mark Twain once said: quote: You can't depend on your eyes , when your imagination is out of focus.
And you, Mr Iacoletti, can't imagine that the word is Mississippi, if every "I" isn't dotted.....
-
As Mark Twain once said: quote: You can't depend on your eyes , when your imagination is out of focus.
And you can't imagine that the word is Mississippi, if every "I" isn't dotted.....
You imagine that the word is Mississippi when you’re looking at a blank piece of paper.
-
Guys...Guys-----Stay on topic! Focus on Truly and Baker :)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2nd-Floor-Dreams-Patsies.jpg?w=461)
-
Guys...Guys-----Stay on topic! Focus on Truly and Baker :)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2nd-Floor-Dreams-Patsies.jpg?w=461)
What more is there to know about Truly and Baker?
They both were liars.....and willing putty in the hands of LBJ's cover up committee.....
They couldn't renounce the story about encountering Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom.....Because that bit had become cast in stone, by the interrogators and Lee Oswald himself, who said that he was drinking a coke at the time Baker and Truly entered the lunchroom.
They could however change the innocuous encounter from a very brief and innocuous meeting into something a bit incriminating of Lee, by embellishing the story with bits like ..Baker had his gun stuck in Oswald's belly, and nonsense like calling for Oswald to "come here" when he was only a few feet away from Baker. And the most damaging prevarication was Baker's striking out the words "drinking a coke" from his late affidavit.
the title asks... Did Roy Truly and/or Marion Baker Lie? The answer is: Yes, very definitely...... and it's easily verifiable.....
-
What more is there to know about Truly and Baker?
:(
Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there.
One lie at a time :-\
-
Mr. BALL. Now, before inquiring into the circumstances of seeing two guns that belonged to Mr. Warren Caster on November 20, 1963, I'll ask you whether or not you ever at anytime before that time or after that time saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Never before.
Mr. BALL. Never before, and between that date Wednesday, November 20, and Friday, November 22, did you ever see any guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. I did see guns in there after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. That is, you saw guns of police officers?
Mr. TRULY. Of the police officers.
Why did Truly seem inclined to answer a question that wasn't asked?
-
:(One lie at a time :-\
Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there.
I certainly would not defend Truly, but I don't see where he is lying in this exchange.
-
I certainly would not defend Truly, but I don't see where he is lying in this exchange.
Mr. TRULY.... That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there.
To the 'Sniper's Window'? OK right..Just a really terrible memory.
-
Mr. BALL. Your testimony is filed in volume 28, I believe, of the Commission here. There are certain matters which have come to the attention of the Commission since then that I would like to inquire about, and that's the reason we are taking your deposition, which will be in addition to the testimony you have already given.
Do you recall anytime that you saw any guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I saw two guns on November 20.
Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?
Mr. TRULY. They belonged to Mr. Warren Caster.
Mr. BALL. And you did take the large rifle out?
Mr. TRULY. And raised it to my shoulder and go through the motion of it, but not cocking it---just looking at it.
Mr. BALL. Who else was there besides you and Mr. Caster?
Mr. TRULY. Well, the only person I can recall being there was Mr. Shelley.
LIE...for the record here, Oswald was there----How else would he have known?
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-net/30216/archive/fullsize/f7fbbe1318694f9d57d284f0da55ff3c.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI3ATG3OSQLO5HGKA&Expires=1573084800&Signature=DD%2BSOcMCmxH1GctFpX67efhh8bQ%3D)
The rifle he saw was a Mauser bolt action of all types of guns to have been in the building 2 days before the Event.
-
LIE...for the record here, Oswald was there----How else would he have known?
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-net/30216/archive/fullsize/f7fbbe1318694f9d57d284f0da55ff3c.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI3ATG3OSQLO5HGKA&Expires=1573084800&Signature=DD%2BSOcMCmxH1GctFpX67efhh8bQ%3D)
The rifle he saw was a Mauser bolt action of all types of guns to have been in the building 2 days before the Event.
Agent Hosty scribbled this during Mr Oswald's interrogation:
(https://i.imgur.com/f3Jb1oT.jpg)
Mr Cakebread argued that Mr Oswald was identifying the rifle being shown to him as having been the one he'd seen Mr Truly with.
Looks like Mr Cakebread was right-------------this 11/22 FBI report was recently uncovered by Mr B. Kamp:
(https://i.imgur.com/hMJVKui.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
Agent Hosty scribbled this during Mr Oswald's interrogation:
(https://i.imgur.com/f3Jb1oT.jpg)
Mr Cakebread argued that Mr Oswald was identifying the rifle being shown to him as having been the one he'd seen Mr Truly with.
Looks like Mr Cakebread was right-------------this 11/22 FBI report was recently uncovered by Mr B. Kamp:
(https://i.imgur.com/hMJVKui.jpg)
Thank You , Mr ford. I don't know with absolute certainty that Lee said he saw the carcano ( he didn't ID it by using the word carcano) he said that he saw THE rifle or THIS rifle in Mr Truly's office.
It is SOP to confront the suspect with the murder weapon and observe his reaction to being confronted with the weapon. And that's apparently what they did to Lee Oswald, But were surprised by his statement that he had seen it in Mr Tuly's office the day before yesterday.
Thumb1:
-
No problem, Mr Cakebread. I thought you were talking nonsense when you made this argument before, so please accept my apologies. Turns out your interpretation of the interrogation notes in this regard was spot on! Thumb1:
-
No problem, Mr Cakebread. I thought you were talking nonsense when you made this argument before, so please accept my apologies. Turns out your interpretation of the interrogation notes in this regard was spot on! Thumb1:
Not so fast. It’s Walt’s contention that there were three rifles in Caster’s office.
-
Not so fast. It’s Walt’s contention that there were three rifles in Caster’s office.
One of them was the carcano.......
-
if Oswald had opened the door just as Baker was coming up the front entrance steps on the right side of the handrail, where Baker runs into Pauline Sanders, then Sanders would have likely seen Oswald and so would Sarah Stanton aka prayerperson, have seen him too.
So its unlikely imo, Oswald came out JUST AS Baker was ascending the entrance steps.
Its more probable that IF Oswald and Baker met each other on the 1st floor,it was just AFTER Baker enters and that would place Oswald either in the front lobby storage room not in LOS at first, but then exiting from that storage room, OR, the 'vestibule" reference could mean the office area just after the 2nd set of glass doors, where Baker and TRuly had to get thru the counter and then Baker was surprised by Oswald exiting the Domino room as Baker and Truly went diagonally across the 1st floor towards the 2 rear elevators and rear staircase.
Otherwise, the "vestibule" must be refering to the smaller area 2nd floor space between hallway, landing and the lunchroom and office of 2nd floor.
-
Not so fast. It’s Walt’s contention that there were three rifles in Caster’s office.
Sure, but his key claim---that 'rifle' meant 'the rifle'----is borne out by the Pinkston report. And this was raised with Mr Truly very quickly.
Speculation! Mr Truly had tried to get Mr Oswald to handle the rifle...
-
if Oswald had opened the door just as Baker was coming up the front entrance steps on the right side of the handrail, where Baker runs into Pauline Sanders, then Sanders would have likely seen Oswald and so would Sarah Stanton aka prayerperson, have seen him too.
LOL!
-
Sure, but his key claim---that 'rifle' meant 'the rifle'----is borne out by the Pinkston report. And this was raised with Mr Truly very quickly.
Speculation! Mr Truly had tried to get Mr Oswald to handle the rifle...
As well as the long paper bag.
-
Not so fast. It’s Walt’s contention that there were three rifles in Caster’s office.
You're confused Mr Iacoletti..... Lee told the interrogators that he had seen ( This) or (that) or ( the ) rifle and TWO OTHER RIFLES ( total 3) in Mr TRULY'S ( Not Caster's ) office the day before yesterday. Both Hosty and Fritz jotted down similar notes.
-
You're confused Mr Iacoletti..... Lee told the interrogators that he had seen ( This) or (that) or ( the ) rifle and TWO OTHER RIFLES ( total 3) in Mr TRULY'S ( Not Caster's ) office the day before yesterday. Both Hosty and Fritz jotted down similar notes.
Yes, sorry. Truly’s office. The notes don’t actually say (or mean) “two other rifles” but that’s a different debate.
-
You guys are putting Oliver Stone to shame. If you believe they went to All the trouble to create a paper trail attaching Oswald to the rifle, and then Planted the rifle on the 6th floor, why go through all your Hocus Pocus a couple days before to get Oswald's prints on the rifle? Unnecessary Over Kill.
-
You guys are putting Oliver Stone to shame. If you believe they went to All the trouble to create a paper trail attaching Oswald to the rifle, and then Planted the rifle on the 6th floor, why go through all your Hocus Pocus a couple days before to get Oswald's prints on the rifle? Unnecessary Over Kill.
they went to All the trouble to create a paper trail attaching Oswald to the rifle,
Royell, Have you forgotten that the "paper trail" was created nine months prior to the ambush murder. I believe that it was Lee Oswald himself who created that "Paper trail".... He had ordered the rare and unusual Mannlicher Carcano through a popular mail order house so that when the police found that rifle near Walker's house after the hoax attempt to shoot Walker) they would have no trouble tracing it to the "Castro Lovin commie" Lee Oswald. ( the public image that he had carefully nurtured)
-
You guys are putting Oliver Stone to shame. If you believe they went to All the trouble to create a paper trail attaching Oswald to the rifle, and then Planted the rifle on the 6th floor, why go through all your Hocus Pocus a couple days before to get Oswald's prints on the rifle? Unnecessary Over Kill.
Who’s “they”?
-
Who’s “they”?
Lee Oswald and George de Mohrenschildt.
-
As well as the long paper bag.
Glad you brought up that subject....( The long paper bag)
There is testimony that Lt JC Day found a "gun case shaped ( triangular) paper bag" in the TSBD . Roy Truly was with him at the time so we can assume that this discovery occurred after Day had taken the rifle to police headquarters and returned to the TSBD. When Day spotted the "gun case shaped" paper bag he turned to Truly and asked if he'd ever seen the "gun case" before. Of course Roy Truly denied that he'd ever seen it.
Lt Day said that he folded the paper up and put it in his pocket and he never displayed this paper sack to anybody.
Where did Day find that "gun case"? It must have been in a place where he would logically assume that Truly had ready access to ( like truly's office where three rifles had been seen by Lee Oswald on Wednesday 11 / 20 /63.
Why did Day fold it and put in his pocket without treating it as evidence?? He certainly knew that a large paper bag had been found in the SE corner of the sixth floor and it was suspected as being the wrapper used to smuggle the rifle into the TSBD.....So why didn't he treat the gun case shaped bag, as evidence and refrain from undue handling.???
-
Lee Oswald and George de Mohrenschildt.
Cool story, bro.
-
How silly!.... Talk about bizarre ideas!.... They had Lee's prints ....They had taken his prints on Friday 11/22/63. Since the cellophane tape on the 3 X 5 card was a photo, it was a piece o cake to add Lee's palm print to the photo. There was no need to try to to put the prints of a corpse on the rifle. Did you know that a dead man doesn't sweat?
True. However------
Dryness or excess moisture (sweat) and heat are the biggest challenges to obtaining good fingerprints, so it is always recommended to come to your appointment with cool and dry, but hydrated hands.
https://www.atlanticscreening.com/livescan/fingerprintrejections/
It was reported that Fed acting guys entered the morgue and demanded privacy when Oswald arrived ....They apparently wanted something and were in a hurry to get it.
-
True. However------https://www.atlanticscreening.com/livescan/fingerprintrejections/
It was reported that Fed acting guys entered the morgue and demanded privacy when Oswald arrived ....They apparently wanted something and were in a hurry to get it.
t was reported that Fed acting guys entered the morgue and demanded privacy when Oswald arrived ....They apparently wanted something and were in a hurry to get it.
I don't doubt that some intel organization wanted to be certain that the dead man was in fact Lee H. Oswald. Since there is evidence that they had used an impostor Lee Oswald at least once, they wanted to be certain the dead man was in fact their secret undercover agent Lee H. Oswald. I seriously doubt that the visit to the corpse was to plant prints on the rifle. Can you explain how they could have gotten the corpse to perspire and secrete oils through the skin ?
-
t was reported that Fed acting guys entered the morgue and demanded privacy when Oswald arrived ....They apparently wanted something and were in a hurry to get it.
I don't doubt that some intel organization wanted to be certain that the dead man was in fact Lee H. Oswald. Since there is evidence that they had used an impostor Lee Oswald at least once they wanted to be certain the dead man was in fact their secret undercover agent Lee H. Oswald. I seriously doubt that the visit to the corpse was to plant prints on the rifle. Can you explain how they could have gotten the corpse to perspire and secrete oils through the skin ?
When Dick Russell published his book The Man Who Knew Too Much we learned that Richard Case Nagell had dispatched ( murdered) a man who was using the name Lee Oswald on September (20 ?) 1963. Nagell had been ordered to find "Oswald" and snuff him..... And he did. He removed papers and ID from the dead man and among the ID cards was a copy of a card that Lee Oswald had in his possession on 11 /22/63. The card was a "uniformed Services Identification card " bearing the number N 4, 271,617. The card that Lee had in his possession bore a photo of Lee Oswald...But the card that Nagell removed from the body of the impostor had a different photo.
-
I don't doubt that some intel organization wanted to be certain that the dead man was in fact Lee H. Oswald. Since there is evidence that they had used an impostor Lee Oswald at least once they wanted to be certain the dead man was in fact their secret undercover agent Lee H. Oswald. I seriously doubt that the visit to the corpse was to plant prints on the rifle. Can you explain how they could have gotten the corpse to perspire and secrete oils through the skin ?
As I am not an expert on all that I can only refer---- https://www.quora.com/Can-a-dead-body-be-identified-by-fingerprint
-
LOL!
Well, are you still prayerperson= Oswald advocate? I thought you have moved on to Oswald on the steps or Oswald in the lobby either of which, he should have been seen by Baker AND Pauline Sanders if at the front door entrance.
Where do you place Oswald at the time that Baker is ascending up the front entrance steps to the right of the handrail?
-
Well, are you still prayerperson= Oswald advocate? I thought you have moved on to Oswald on the steps or Oswald in the lobby either of which, he should have been seen by Baker AND Pauline Sanders if at the front door entrance.
False choices, Mr Mason--Mr Oswald was in different places at different points in time! And the assumption that PrayerManInWiegman = PrayerManInDarnell, while understandable, is flawed, and has IMO caused no end of confusion since the Prayer Man thing broke back in 2013!
1. In the Wiegman film Mr Oswald is just behind Mr Billy Lovelady:
(https://i.imgur.com/Yw4MG7m.jpg)
He is the second 'Lovelady' head on the left as we look.
Mr Oswald's precise location was known to the cover-up investigators, for Mr Oswald had told them about it in his first interrogation. This is why the Altgens photograph (which, by a stroke of great luck, turned out only to show Mr Lovelady's face) caused such panic as soon as it emerged---------for it seemed to show that Mr Oswald was telling the truth! They were not so lucky with the Wiegman film...
'PrayerMan' in Wiegman is almost certainly Mr Bill Shelley.
2. In the Darnell film Mr Oswald is very probably PrayerMan:
(https://i.imgur.com/9VMh011.jpg)
I say only very probably because, although no other serious other candidate has ever been put forward, it is just about possible that someone who had been down in the street has gone up the steps to that position since Wiegman.
If Mr Oswald is not PrayerMan in Darnell, then
-----------this does not make Ms Stanton PrayerMan ( =a laughable notion! :D )
-----------Mr Oswald has probably already slipped back in the front lobby.
Either way, Mr Oswald is about to...
3. ... have an encounter with Officer Baker (and Mr Truly) in that vestibule (front lobby).
This encounter will be seen (see what the DPD told reporters later that day and what Mr Lovelady told Mr Junior Jarman) and Mr Oswald will tell Captain Fritz about it (see Mr Holmes' WC testimony).
The second-floor lunchroom story------and its pendant, the encounter with Mrs Reid in the office area-------will be invented to bury these simple facts, for Mr Oswald's alibi must not be allowed to stand!
Where do you place Oswald at the time that Baker is ascending up the front entrance steps to the right of the handrail?
We don't know that Officer Baker ascended the front entrance steps to the right of the handrail-------it looks rather congested compared to the left hand side, doesn't it!
If Mr Oswald is PrayerMan in Darnell, then he is probably still in the PrayerMan spot at the time Officer Baker hits those steps
------------a good person for Officer Baker to ask for help in finding the stairs ('Hey, do you work here?') Thumb1:
The one thing I am quite certain about is that Mr Oswald was right behind Mr Lovelady at the time the shots were fired!
It's the reason for
----------the second 'Lovelady' head in Wiegman
----------the fact that a magic shadow has been added down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman!
(https://i.imgur.com/FIB2Huj.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
With regard to Oswald being "very Probably PrayerMan" in the Darnell still frame you posted above, try looking again. PrayerMan from hip-to-hip in your Darnell Still Frame does Not have the slender/slight body build that Oswald had. Hip-To-Hip not even close.
-
Please point out these alleged hips.
-
With regard to Oswald being "very Probably PrayerMan" in the Darnell still frame you posted above, try looking again. PrayerMan from hip-to-hip in your Darnell Still Frame does Not have the slender/slight body build that Oswald had. Hip-To-Hip not even close.
The forum's self-appointed Methodological Sage is back, not 24 hours after his Olympian posturing was exposed for the utter sham it is.
And now the man who claimed not to be even able to find Mr Frazier in Wiegman is lecturing me on how to look at Darnell...
No shame----and no credibility! :D
-
The forum's self-appointed Methodological Sage is back, not 24 hours after his Olympian posturing was exposed for the utter sham it is.
And now the man who claimed not to be even able to find Mr Frazier in Wiegman is lecturing me on how to look at Darnell...
No shame----and no credibility! :D
No, Alan, you are misinterpreting Royell imo. Because I think Royell is as confused as I am about your above post/premise with the many photos and apparently it seems, suggesting that prayerblob IS Oswald in Wiegman, but is NOT Oswald in Darnell? Or is it vice versa? Anyway, it does not appear to me at least, that prayerblob moves very much at all from Wiegman to Darnell, except for a slight turn perhaps.(and raising the white object to mouth level). So I cannot follow your argument here, as I suspect Royell cannot either Thumb1:
-
No, Alan, you are misinterpreting Royell imo. Because I think Royell is as confused as I am about your above post/premise with the many photos and apparently it seems, suggesting that prayerblob IS Oswald in Weigman, but is NOT Oswald in Darnell? Or is it vice versa? Anyway, it does not appear to me at least, that prayerblob moves very much at all from Weigman to Darnell, except for a slight turn perhaps.(and raising the white object to mouth level). So I cannot follow your argument here, as I suspect Royell cannot either Thumb1:
1. Mr Storing is 'confused' only in the sense that he can't get his own schtick straight. This constitutes what he would call 'an immediate disqualifier'! :D
2. You're not looking very closely at the relative elevations of PrayerMan in Wiegman and PrayerMan in Darnell. Try again! Thumb1:
3. Your repeated use of the term prayerblob is understandable-----you know PrayerMan doesn't remotely resemble Ms Sarah Stanton, so you exaggerate the indecipherability of his features! :D
4. You don't find my 'many photos' (sic) confusing, you just don't want Mr Oswald to be outside!
-
In William Manchester’s Death Of A President ...Truly is quoted as: Roy Truly, who didn’t believe the races were meant to mix, later doubted that --
half my boys would have gone out to see the parade if it hadn’t been lunchtime. Except for my niggers the boys are conservative, like me—like most Texans.
Roy Truly’s Warren Commission testimony:Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?
Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway. By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume – I know.
Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?
Which doesn't make any sense if the story went that Baker already had his gun pointed at Oswald when Truly arrived and said that Oswald worked in the building. So who lied there? The Oswalddidits wont respond.
-
Truly said he was already on the staircase to the third floor when he realized that Baker was no longer behind him and turned around and came back down.
-
When Dick Russell published his book The Man Who Knew Too Much we learned that Richard Case Nagell had dispatched ( murdered) a man who was using the name Lee Oswald on September (20 ?) 1963. Nagell had been ordered to find "Oswald" and snuff him..... And he did. He removed papers and ID from the dead man and among the ID cards was a copy of a card that Lee Oswald had in his possession on 11 /22/63. The card was a "uniformed Services Identification card " bearing the number N 4, 271,617. The card that Lee had in his possession bore a photo of Lee Oswald...But the card that Nagell removed from the body of the impostor had a different photo.
...said Nagell, not Russell, not anyone else. Just have to take Nagell's word for it, and he was dropped on his head.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/NagellCardUnknownOriginC.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Nagell1954CrashInjury.jpg)
-
...said Nagell, not Russell, not anyone else. Just have to take Nagell's word for it, and he was dropped on his head.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/NagellCardUnknownOriginC.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Nagell1954CrashInjury.jpg)
There is a photo of the card on page 109 of Jesse Curry's book JFK Assassination File Page 109
-
...said Nagell, not Russell, not anyone else. Just have to take Nagell's word for it, and he was dropped on his head.
What does all this have to do with Truly and Baker?
Truly said he was already on the staircase to the third floor when he realized that Baker was no longer behind him and turned around and came back down.
Which is even stranger. Which one was the law enforcement officer? Cops usually tell citizens to get out of the way..especially if they have their side-arm pulled. The idea that Baker could not advance without Truly's help is ludicrous.
-
Truly said he was already on the staircase to the third floor when he realized that Baker was no longer behind him and turned around and came back down.
A couple of weeks after the coup d e'tat, the magazine US News and World Report published a story hat included an interview of Roy Truly. Truly gave a description of the second floor lunchroom encounter with Lee Oswald that is quite different than the version that was handed us by LBJ's cover up committee.
Wouldn't be great if Mr Scully would post the story that appeared in US News and World report .....
-
.... He removed papers and ID from the dead man and among the ID cards was a copy of a card that Lee Oswald had in his possession on 11 /22/63. The card was a "uniformed Services Identification card " bearing the number N 4, 271,617. The card that Lee had in his possession bore a photo of Lee Oswald...But the card that Nagell removed from the body of the impostor had a different photo.
There is a photo of the card on page 109 of Jesse Curry's book JFK Assassination File Page 109
The card is linked to Oswald, per the assassination investigation and Tippit murder investigation. The only evidence linking same or similar card to Nagell is a photocopy of unknown provenance.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49560/m1/1/?q=oswald%20identification
(http://jfkforum.com/images/metapth49560_m_91-001_332.med_res%20(1).jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/metapth49560_m_91-001_332Crop.jpg)
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/White%20Jack/Item%2008.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldNagellidCard.jpg)
-
The card is linked to Oswald, per the assassination investigation and Tippit murder investigation. The only evidence linking same or similar card to Nagell is a photocopy of unknown provenance.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49560/m1/1/?q=oswald%20identification
(http://jfkforum.com/images/metapth49560_m_91-001_332.med_res%20(1).jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/metapth49560_m_91-001_332Crop.jpg)
I'd love to discuss the card with you, but this is not the thread for that.....
-
When Dick Russell published his book The Man Who Knew Too Much we learned that Richard Case Nagell had dispatched ( murdered) a man who was using the name Lee Oswald on September (20 ?) 1963. Nagell had been ordered to find "Oswald" and snuff him..... And he did. He removed papers and ID from the dead man and among the ID cards was a copy of a card that Lee Oswald had in his possession on 11 /22/63. The card was a "uniformed Services Identification card " bearing the number N 4, 271,617. The card that Lee had in his possession bore a photo of Lee Oswald...But the card that Nagell removed from the body of the impostor had a different photo.
The card is linked to Oswald, per the assassination investigation and Tippit murder investigation. The only evidence linking same or similar card to Nagell is a photocopy of unknown provenance.
......
I'd love to discuss the card with you, but this is not the thread for that.....
This is "the thread" in which BSers BS, (distract) the readers, as happens in almost every thread of this forum. You presented unsupported BS.
-
In William Manchester’s Death Of A President ...Truly is quoted as: Roy Truly, who didn’t believe the races were meant to mix, later doubted that -- Roy Truly’s Warren Commission testimony:Which doesn't make any sense if the story went that Baker already had his gun pointed at Oswald when Truly arrived and said that Oswald worked in the building. So who lied there? The Oswalddidits wont respond.
The TSBD had a screwy floor plan concerning the stairs. The stairwell that Baker/Truly entered on the ground floor ended/emptied onto the 2nd Floor. Baker/Truly had to travel several feet on the 2nd floor to gain access to another stairwell which went Up from that point on the 2nd Floor. They could have become separated while moving on the 2nd floor amidst switching from one stairwell to the other.
-
1. Mr Storing is 'confused' only in the sense that he can't get his own schtick straight. This constitutes what he would call 'an immediate disqualifier'! :D
2. You're not looking very closely at the relative elevations of PrayerMan in Wiegman and PrayerMan in Darnell. Try again! Thumb1:
3. Your repeated use of the term prayerblob is understandable-----you know PrayerMan doesn't remotely resemble Ms Sarah Stanton, so you exaggerate the indecipherability of his features! :D
4. You don't find my 'many photos' (sic) confusing, you just don't want Mr Oswald to be outside!
Alan, you are WAY off if you think I have concluded Oswald cannot be out there somewhere at the front entrance. Its just that at the current time, the prayerblob is too short at 5'3" to be the 5'9" Oswald.
When you have to start explaining this anomally by suggesting prayerblob is maintaining a very awkward position with one foot on lower step and other foot on upper landing, it begins to become a little bit like the WC explaining the single bullet trajectory by distorting JFKs body position and exaggerating his neck curvature, and moving him closer to Gov Connally, as in Myers computer graphic.
So I have to respectfully be skeptical for the time being until some other measurement or something else shows why the Prayerblob is only 5'3"
The width of the Prayerblob imo is also a bit too wide to be slender Oswald
The shirt sleeves are rolled up which would be a question if Oswald meets Baker at the entrance or just inside the lobby which may or may not be the ""vestibule" reference, why Baker does not mention such detail
The hair of Prayerblob is too bushy in the back to be similar enough to Oswald tapered short cut hair imo
But Im not exclusively stating that prayerblob is Sarah Stanton either. Just that the relatives seem to have stated that the figure at least in volume, does appear to be similar to that of Stanton.
The computer programmed enlargement of the face, imo is NOT very convincing at all that the face is Stanton. But equally, it is not very convincing that it could be Oswalds face either. So I cannot definitively state that prayerblob is Oswald any more than it is Stanton. Imo, the computer imaging program is a glitched program and is not a reliable one.
So absent definitive proof, i have no choice but to attempt logical deduction method and that is why imo, the corner is a LOGICAL place where a large 300 lb woman would stand, in order to:
A. Be out of the way and not an obstruction to other people entering/exiting the front door. This is something a large fat person would be self consciously aware of and more likely to wish to avoid being an obstruction.
B. Be able to have a much better LOS to Elm st to view the limo, much better than where Stanton was originally, according to Pauline Sanders, BESIDE Sanders which would place Stanton behind BWF, Shelly, and in front of the entrance door.
C. Be in a position that BWF appears to be looking at during the portion of Couch/Darnell films coincident with Gloria Cavalry having arrived at the base of the front steps, which BWF suggests that is the que when he and Stanton glanced at each other, as they heard Gloria Cavalry exclaim that JFK had been shot.
-
Who missed Lee the most?
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339642/m1/1/med_res/)
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/med_res/)
-
The TSBD had a screwy floor plan concerning the stairs. The stairwell that Baker/Truly entered on the ground floor ended/emptied onto the 2nd Floor. Baker/Truly had to travel several feet on the 2nd floor to gain access to another stairwell which went Up from that point on the 2nd Floor. They could have become separated while moving on the 2nd floor amidst switching from one stairwell to the other.
The TSBD floor plan shows the stair well plans go up/down floor by floor on the far NW corner....
This was necessary for fire concerns. The entire floors' plans can be seen here....Scroll to the bottom of the page-------
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/05/tsbd-photographs-and-floor-plans.html
There was nothing "screwy" about the stairs at all. A child could navigate them. The 4th floor for example----
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5D1kkNnLfqA/WRkmL2vLJFI/AAAAAAABLzg/6xPp9q2BfkYhNxUwx7sl9_2txqF-lH9nQCLcB/s696/TSBD-Floor-Plan-Fourth-Floor.png)
-
The TSBD floor plan shows the stair well plans go up/down floor by floor on the far NW corner....
This was necessary for fire concerns. The entire floors' plans can be seen here....Scroll to the bottom of the page-------
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/05/tsbd-photographs-and-floor-plans.html
There was nothing "screwy" about the stairs at all. A child could navigate them. The 4th floor for example----
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5D1kkNnLfqA/WRkmL2vLJFI/AAAAAAABLzg/6xPp9q2BfkYhNxUwx7sl9_2txqF-lH9nQCLcB/s696/TSBD-Floor-Plan-Fourth-Floor.png)
This is the floor where Baker said that he saw a man "walking away from the stairs " ( Baker said that it was either the third or fourth floor) You can see that it probably was not the fourth floor where Baker saw the man because the area was mostly open storage space.
There were several women on the fourth floor looking out of the windows toward the railroad yard. If Baker had encountered the man on the fourth floor those women could not have failed to notice ..... It didn't happen on the fourth floor....and the third floor was only one floor up from where he had encountered Lee Oswald, so it's highly unlikely that Baker would say either the third or fourth floor....I suspect that Baker should have said that he saw the man on either the fourth or fifth floor....and I believe it was the fifth floor where Baker saw the man and commanded that he come over to where Baker was at the top of the stairs.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5D1kkNnLfqA/WRkmL2vLJFI/AAAAAAABLzg/6xPp9q2BfkYhNxUwx7sl9_2txqF-lH9nQCLcB/s696/TSBD-Floor-Plan-Fourth-Floor.png)
-
The TSBD floor plan shows the stair well plans go up/down floor by floor on the far NW corner....
This was necessary for fire concerns. The entire floors' plans can be seen here....Scroll to the bottom of the page-------
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/05/tsbd-photographs-and-floor-plans.html
There was nothing "screwy" about the stairs at all. A child could navigate them. The 4th floor for example----
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5D1kkNnLfqA/WRkmL2vLJFI/AAAAAAABLzg/6xPp9q2BfkYhNxUwx7sl9_2txqF-lH9nQCLcB/s696/TSBD-Floor-Plan-Fourth-Floor.png)
Maybe you have limited experience with multi floored structures? I have worked at structures 11 stories tall. 1 continuous stairway ALL the way up is common. I never said anything about there being an issue of "navigation". You mention some "fire concerns". Short and simple, if you look at images of the massive amount of junk scattered hither and yon inside the TSBD, that place Was a Fire Trap.
-
A couple of weeks after the coup d e'tat, the magazine US News and World Report published a story hat included an interview of Roy Truly. Truly gave a description of the second floor lunchroom encounter with Lee Oswald that is quite different than the version that was handed us by LBJ's cover up committee.
Mr Truly and Officer Baker were given an invented second-floor lunchroom story to tell, and they were unable to keep that story straight! Thumb1:
Wouldn't be great if Mr Scully would post the story that appeared in US News and World report .....
Don't hold your breath, Mr Cakebread... Mr Scully is actively hostile to those working to establish Mr Oswald's alibi. His off-topic nonsense in this thread being just the latest example!
-
Huh? Explain how you arrived at the 5'3" height determination please!
Well..see how short he looks here----- Officially, they say that is Oswald and Marina [5' 3"] must be standing on a rise in the pavement.
(https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-ZE145_1005Os_D_20131004143111.jpg)
-
Alan, if you cannot see that prayerblob is almost a whole head lower than BW Frazier which cannot be explained by perspective as per the John Mytton analysis using a computer perspective program. I have no doubt John Mytton has saved all his work for the last 10 years and will happy to post it all again right here in this thread :)
The John Mytton analysis using a computer perspective program? You mean, you have actually fallen for that garbage?
Look at PrayerManInDarnell's right elbow, Mr Mason, and its distance to the redbrick. Then compare Mr Mytton's 'reading' of PrayerManInDarnell! :D
Given that even most of the remaining faithful Prayerblob=Oswald advocates accept that Prayerblob appears obviously too short to be a 5'9" Oswald even if he was standing at the very BACK of the corner, the only remaining argument left was Stancaks placement with one foot on lower step and one foot on top landing and that has been also shown by measurements to be not probable.
Why is Mr Stancak's suggestion for PrayerMan's posture the only possible solution? Mr Stancak has incorrectly read the radiator behind the glass door as Mr Oswald's left leg. We don't have to!
If you disagree, Mr Mason, how about you prove to us that PrayerMan could not possibly have both feet on the first step down, or one foot on that step and the toes of the other foot resting on the landing? Thumb1:
So now, Alan, what exactly is your CURRENT argument, because it appears to me at least that you are suggesting that prayerblob is Bill Shelley in Wiegman? But then afterwards, when Shelley and Lovelady appear to have moved away and walking away from the steps, that prayerblob is now Oswald?
You know what my current argument is, Mr Mason, because I have explained it to you in the clearest possible terms several times. But------like your fellow members of Team Keep LHO Away From That Entranceway At All Costs-------you keep playing dumb and seeking 'clarification'. And then, when shown the relevant images, you claim to be 'confused'.
You are fooling nobody!
So! Prove that what I am saying about Mr Oswald's being right behind Mr Lovelady in Wiegman is wrong. Show us your counter-explanation for this---------
(https://i.imgur.com/eIvBxNb.jpg)
---------and for the magic dark 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady's right side in this-----------
(https://i.imgur.com/ReRqcy4.jpg)
Go Team Keep LHO Away From That Entranceway At All Costs! Thumb1:
-
Maybe you have limited experience with multi floored structures? I have worked at structures 11 stories tall. 1 continuous stairway ALL the way up is common. I never said anything about there being an issue of "navigation". You mention some "fire concerns". Short and simple, if you look at images of the massive amount of junk scattered hither and yon inside the TSBD, that place Was a Fire Trap.
After further review...there is a separate staircase around the corner of the entrance that went up to the second floor to a maze of offices and hallways. As far as 'my experience' goes...the TSBD was built as a farm machinery warehouse in around 1910. So, in modern buildings, we know that usually the first access to upper floors are elevators. Presently, the old TSBD are Dallas County offices [except for the museum areas]
-
Friends, it has been claimed by Mr Stancak that this is Ms Pauline Sanders in the Darnell film (yellow box):
(https://i.imgur.com/k5qQurM.jpg)
But! A viewing of this frame in context (the penultimate frame here below) shows not only that this one-frame phenomenon is not Ms Sanders but that...................it's not even a head!
(https://i.imgur.com/up9CiFV.gif)
Thumb1:
-
The fact that Oswald had a coca cola seemed to mess up the timeline as to what Oswald was able to do within the timeline if he was said to have shot JFK and hide the rifle and then make his way down to the lunchroom and already have a Coca cola ! Marion Baker thought that his timeline from the end of the shooting to the time of his face to face meeting with Oswald with his pistol drawn was 90 seconds . Someone seems to have Oswald doing a lot from the end of the shots to the meeting of Baker and himself in the lunch room . Oswald seemed to have the metabolism of a slow moving person but yet we are led to believe this guy was a mover and a shaker ! I don't think Baker lied but I'm not real sure about Truly !
-
The fact that Oswald had a coca cola seemed to mess up the timeline as to what Oswald was able to do within the timeline if he was said to have shot JFK and hide the rifle and then make his way down to the lunchroom and already have a Coca cola ! Marion Baker thought that his timeline from the end of the shooting to the time of his face to face meeting with Oswald with his pistol drawn was 90 seconds . Someone seems to have Oswald doing a lot from the end of the shots to the meeting of Baker and himself in the lunch room . Oswald seemed to have the metabolism of a slow moving person but yet we are led to believe this guy was a mover and a shaker ! I don't think Baker lied but I'm not real sure about Truly !
FWIW.... Mike..... Both Baker and Truly started lying when it became apparent that Lee couldn't possibly have been at the SE corner of the sixth fllor and firing a rifle out of the window at !230, and then be in the 2nd floor lunchroom drinking a Coke at 12:31 :30. They were bent on framing Lee Oswald, and they lied to accomplish that objective.
-
After further review...there is a separate staircase around the corner of the entrance that went up to the second floor to a maze of offices and hallways. As far as 'my experience' goes...the TSBD was built as a farm machinery warehouse in around 1910. So, in modern buildings, we know that usually the first access to upper floors are elevators. Presently, the old TSBD are Dallas County offices [except for the museum areas]
there is a separate staircase around the corner of the entrance that went up to the second floor to a maze of offices and hallways.
What would the logical thing for a police officer ( or anybody) to do, if they entered the building and wanted to get to the upper floors ??
Would they have looked for the arrows that pointed to the stairs to the upper floors? ....Or would they have stood there scratching heir head in trying to decide how to get upstairs?
-
What would the logical thing for a police officer ( or anybody) to do, if they entered the building and wanted to get to the upper floors ??
According to the story...a man told the cop that he was the bldg manager--and to follow him.
-
According to the story...a man told the cop that he was the bldg manager--and to follow him.
Thank you, Jerry, and yes that is the official tale.... But does it make sense ?? When Baker ran into the TSBD he would have been looking for a way to get upstairs ASAP. And the stairs to the second floor were clearly marked with an arrow ( Baker would have had no way of knowing that the stairs only went to the second floor and then the passageway through the second floor was blocked by a swinging gate that had a latch) It is logical that at this point Baker might have asked anybody at hand ( like Roy Truly) how to get to the roof......Or perhaps Baker had already gone to the second floor and found that he could not get through and returned to the first floor.....I don't know ...but the official tale just smells a bit fishy....
-
The card is linked to Oswald, per the assassination investigation and Tippit murder investigation. The only evidence linking same or similar card to Nagell is a photocopy of unknown provenance.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49560/m1/1/?q=oswald%20identification
(http://jfkforum.com/images/metapth49560_m_91-001_332.med_res%20(1).jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/metapth49560_m_91-001_332Crop.jpg)
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/White%20Jack/Item%2008.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldNagellidCard.jpg)
Who can explain the reason the "official looking" circular "stamp" to fill the quarter round space at the right hand corner of the ID photo was made by using a quarter dollar US coin and a date stamp.... If you doubt that the "stamp was made by using a quarter and an ink pad...Just get a good copy of the document and you can read the word QUARTER ( spelled backwards ) and you can scale the photo to find that the round "stamp" is exactly the size of a quarter.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/metapth49560_m_91-001_332Crop.jpg)
-
The testimony from a variety of sources all corroborate the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter, as they say in the classics "All roads lead to Rome".
And as for Baker being confused about the floor he was on is perfectly understandable because he first walks up steps to get into the Depository and then enters a closed stairwell which has a set of stairs leading to a platform and then he leaves the platform and walks up another set of stairs to the next floor.
In other words Baker was just a dumbass cop and couldn't count floor entries.
-
David Belin was the one who lied. He suppressed mutually corroborating eyewitness testimony that Oswald could not have been on the stairs in the first 60 seconds after the shooting and that therefore there was no way Oswald could have been on the sixth floor during the assassination. This is covered thoroughly in the new documentary JFK Revisited.
-
David Belin was the one who lied. He suppressed mutually corroborating eyewitness testimony that Oswald could not have been on the stairs in the first 60 seconds after the shooting and that therefore there was no way Oswald could have been on the sixth floor during the assassination. This is covered thoroughly in the new documentary JFK Revisited.
There was no mutually corroborating eyewitness testimony that Oswald could not have been on the stairs in the first 60 seconds after the shooting. None. Zero. Nada. JFK Revisited doesn't provide any. Barry Ernest changes one part of his story about what Dorothy Garner told him in order to close a gap in his Girl on the Stairs narrative that would have allowed Oswald to slip through it. Of course, Victoria Adams own WC testimony rules out an early descent by her and Styles. Styles herself was adamant that they stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute.
(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
-
There was no mutually corroborating eyewitness testimony that Oswald could not have been on the stairs in the first 60 seconds after the shooting. None. Zero. Nada. JFK Revisited doesn't provide any. Barry Ernest changes one part of his story about what Dorothy Garner told him in order to close a gap in his Girl on the Stairs narrative that would have allowed Oswald to slip through it. Of course, Victoria Adams own WC testimony rules out an early descent by her and Styles. Styles herself was adamant that they stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute.
(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
So? What does that really suppose to prove? Apparently the testimony was bothersome to the Warren cause or it would not have been classified Top Secret.
According to the inference of the Report...Oswald turned into a shadow that no one saw or heard [after he wiped off and hid the rifle]
-
So? What does that really suppose to prove? Apparently the testimony was bothersome to the Warren cause or it would not have been classified Top Secret.
According to the inference of the Report...Oswald turned into a shadow that no one saw or heard [after he wiped off and hid the rifle]
Almost all of the testimonies were classified as Top Secret. Adams' testimony wasn't bothersome to the WC. I doubt that it would have been even without the references of the encounter with Lovelady and Shelley.
I have no reason to believe that Oswald wiped off his rifle. Oswald didn't turn into a shadow either. No one was on or near the stairs when he descended down to the second floor.
-
Almost all of the testimonies were classified as Top Secret.
Please cite evidence of that.
Adams' testimony wasn't bothersome to the WC.
Perhaps..just cite the evidence to the previous request.
I have no reason to believe that Oswald wiped off his rifle.
I see. Then Oswald's should have been easily found...if in fact Oswald was the shooter right?
But yet---
Mr. McCLOY. Am I to understand your testimony, Lieutenant, about the fingerprints to be you said you were positive---you couldn't make a positive identification, but it was your opinion that these were the fingerprints of Lee Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Well, actually in fingerprinting it either is or is not the man. So I wouldn't say those were his prints.
The FBLie couldn't do any better stating that the poor quality of the wood and metal was not conducive to retaining fingerprints.
If the thing was in such poor quality...how did it shoot?
A bum like Oswald couldn't have done it.
No one was on or near the stairs when he descended down to the second floor.
Same thing as with the Tippit encounter...he has to hurry up and get to the lunchroom before Truly and Baker does.
How could he have known that he must do this?
-
Please cite evidence of that.
Perhaps..just cite the evidence to the previous request.I see. Then Oswald's should have been easily found...if in fact Oswald was the shooter right?
But yet---The FBLie couldn't do any better stating that the poor quality of the wood and metal was not conducive to retaining fingerprints.
If the thing was in such poor quality...how did it shoot?
A bum like Oswald couldn't have done it.Same thing as with the Tippit encounter...he has to hurry up and get to the lunchroom before Truly and Baker does.
How could he have known that he must do this?
(https://i.postimg.cc/j53BfL4c/BLACK-STOCK.png)
The FBLie couldn't do any better stating that the poor quality of the wood and metal was not conducive to retaining fingerprints.
Does the metal appear to be "poor quality" ?..... Do you believe that the metal wouldn't have been "conducive to retaining fingerprints"?
-
Please cite evidence of that.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/finding-aids/jfk-key-persons
Not all of those listed gave depositions or testified before the WC. Of those who did, not all of their testimonies are included in their folders. There are some marked as Confidential and some without any classification, but a great many of them were marked as Top Secret. Just starting down from the top, I see Top Secret on the transcripts of the testimonies of Adrian Alba, Don Archer, Andrew Armstrong, Charles Arnett, Tommy Bargas, W.E Barnes, Colin Barnhorst, Charles Batchelor, Pauline Bates, B.L. Beaty.......
I see. Then Oswald's should have been easily found...if in fact Oswald was the shooter right?
Wrong.
Contrary to portrayals in the movies and on television, fingerprints are not always easy to find on certain items of evidence. In the author's experience identifiable fingerprints are found on guns, knives, clubs, and the like in less than 10 percent of the cases.
https://www.bevfitchett.us/forensic-science/firearms-and-fingerprints-in-the-crime-lab.html
-
... identifiable fingerprints are found on guns, knives, clubs, and the like in less than 10 percent of the cases.
That said..I wonder then why the Warren-ites on this forum constantly throw up as fact that Oswald's fingerprints were found on the rifle.
Mr. DAY. Well, actually in fingerprinting it either is or is not the man. So I wouldn't say those were his prints.
I might construe from that statement that fingerprints were found on the rifle but they were not Oswald's.
BTW thanks for the archives link. Found once again [click for full page] -----
(https://i.ibb.co/0BMwhYy/Baker-Marion-L-Patrolman.png) (https://ibb.co/0BMwhYy)
That still just doesn't sound the same as everything described in the lunchroom encounter.
As I said before, CTers have no ability to properly evaluate the JFK evidence. The Internet CTers are the last people on the planet who should be looking into this case.
You would almost think that this individual did actually personally lead the JFK investigation :D
Move over Chief Justice Warren.
-
That said..I wonder then why the Warren-ites on this forum constantly throw up as fact that Oswald's fingerprints were found on the rifle.I might construe from that statement that fingerprints were found on the rifle but they were not Oswald's.
BTW thanks for the archives link. Found once again [click for full page] -----
(https://i.ibb.co/0BMwhYy/Baker-Marion-L-Patrolman.png) (https://ibb.co/0BMwhYy)
That still just doesn't sound the same as everything described in the lunchroom encounter.
You would almost think that this individual did actually personally lead the JFK investigation :D
Move over Chief Justice Warren.
I believe Baker's affidavit is the truth.... But the lunchroom encounter with Lee Oswald was so brief and innocuous that Baker didn't include it in his affidavit. At the time that Baker submitted that affidavit he had no idea that the young man with the coke in his hand was the designated patsy. He did recall a man who caught his attention because he was furtively trying to slip away from the stairs. And this is the man Baker described ....And the description does not fit Lee Oswald.
(https://i.ibb.co/0BMwhYy/Baker-Marion-L-Patrolman.png) (https://ibb.co/0BMwhYy)
When Baker returned to DPD headquarters late that afternoon he was informed that he may have encountered the assassin in his dash through the TSBD with Roy Truly. ( Fritz said that he was told about the lunchroom encounter by Roy Truly when he (fritz) was at the TSBD at about 1:30) Baker didn't know that his informant was referring to Lee Oswald and the lunchroom encounter, he recalled encountering a 30 year old, 165 pound man, who was wearing a light brown jacket.
-
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/finding-aids/jfk-key-persons
Not all of those listed gave depositions or testified before the WC. Of those who did, not all of their testimonies are included in their folders. There are some marked as Confidential and some without any classification, but a great many of them were marked as Top Secret. Just starting down from the top, I see Top Secret on the transcripts of the testimonies of Adrian Alba, Don Archer, Andrew Armstrong, Charles Arnett, Tommy Bargas, W.E Barnes, Colin Barnhorst, Charles Batchelor, Pauline Bates, B.L. Beaty.......
Wrong.
Contrary to portrayals in the movies and on television, fingerprints are not always easy to find on certain items of evidence. In the author's experience identifiable fingerprints are found on guns, knives, clubs, and the like in less than 10 percent of the cases.
https://www.bevfitchett.us/forensic-science/firearms-and-fingerprints-in-the-crime-lab.html
Contrary to portrayals in the movies and on television, fingerprints are not always easy to find on certain items of evidence. In the author's experience identifiable fingerprints are found on guns, knives, clubs, and the like in less than 10 percent of the cases.
As I recall DPD detective J.C. Day said basically the same thing in his testimony before the WC. Day said that a print is either positively identifiable or it is not. Sooooo..... my question is: Why is it that no experienced finger print expert could positively identify any prints ON THE CARCANO? Some folks have claimed that they were able to identify the prints in a photograph of the carcano's magazine while experts who actually examined the carcano were unable to identify the partial finger prints.
-
A guy pulls photos out of a briefcase 30 years later with no provenance whatsoever and the nutters lap it up.
-
A guy pulls photos out of a briefcase 30 years later with no provenance whatsoever and the nutters lap it up.
Quote from: John Iacoletti on May 05, 2022, 09:26:45 PM
What kind of honorable man shows up at somebody's private residence at night unannounced and lies to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements?
-
? ? ? Is there supposed to be a connection there?
-
? ? ? Is there supposed to be a connection there?
Oswald
-
Almost all of the testimonies were classified as Top Secret. Adams' testimony wasn't bothersome to the WC. I doubt that it would have been even without the references of the encounter with Lovelady and Shelley. I have no reason to believe that Oswald wiped off his rifle. Oswald didn't turn into a shadow either. No one was on or near the stairs when he descended down to the second floor.
Adams' testimony wasn't bothersome to the WC.
No.. it wasn't... as soon as her testimony [that was corroborated by two other employees] was changed to--- Adams didn't hear Oswald running down the stairs because she was not there. ...from-- she was at the staircase in the following couple of minutes.
It was simple---Oswald descended the stairs so fast that he passed the fourth floor before Vicki and Sandra even arrived at the stairwell.
Ergo...only the shadow knows.
Just make every post-event recreation fit your theory. If it doesn't fit one way...then casually juke it the other...EZ :-\
I have no reason to believe that Oswald wiped off his rifle.
I don't either. It wasn't ever his rifle and he wasn't ever up there.
-
Reproduced here [where it belongs] from another thread----
Was the Coke issue even a thing in September 1964?
I concede that Burnett wrote the [Baker] note. I still don't understand the purpose of the note.
The actual final Report states---
Gun in hand, he [Baker] rushed to the door and saw a man about 20 feet away walking toward the other end of the lunchroom. The man was empty handed. Within about 1 minute after his encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald was seen passing through the second-floor offices. In his hand was a full "Coke" bottle which he had purchased from a vending machine in the lunchroom. He was walking toward the front of the building where a passenger elevator and a short flight of stairs provided access to the main entrance of the building on the first floor. Approximately 7 minutes later, at about 12:40 p.m, Oswald boarded a bus at a point on Elm Street seven short blocks east of the Depository Building.
Who actually witnessed the encounter between Baker and Truly that establishes this "within 1 minute"?
Is it likely that a desperate assassin would casually spin some coins in the soda machine after such an encounter?
Maybe? Then what did he do...chug it? He would have had to [if he was going to catch a bus in 7 minutes] If he did or didn't... How does anyone know that Oswald had obtained the Coke and that the bottle was full? Furthermore ... I'm not sure of the old layout of the 2nd floor lunchroom but if the Coke and candy machines were at the entry where the super and the cop came in...and Oswald was walking away from that entry [20 ft toward the end of the lunchroom] Why would Oswald have made himself walk beyond the machine and then back again to buy the soda that he seemed to want anyway?
Emphasis was placed on the part that stated that "the man was empty handed". This would certainly negate the time spent on activating a soda machine.
Yet there was some ascribed certainty that Lee did indeed possess a soda...to wit...Coca Cola after the encounter. Why? It should have been moot at that point because he had nothing in his hands [it is declared] during the encounter.
So...was the Coke issue even a thing back in Sept 1964? Well---maybe it was and then again maybe it wasn't :-\
-
Reproduced here [where it belongs] from another thread----
I concede that Burnett wrote the [Baker] note. I still don't understand the purpose of the note.
The actual final Report states---Who actually witnessed the encounter between Baker and Truly that establishes this "within 1 minute"?
Is it likely that a desperate assassin would casually spin some coins in the soda machine after such an encounter?
Maybe? Then what did he do...chug it? He would have had to [if he was going to catch a bus in 7 minutes] If he did or didn't... How does anyone know that Oswald had obtained the Coke and that the bottle was full? Furthermore ... I'm not sure of the old layout of the 2nd floor lunchroom but if the Coke and candy machines were at the entry where the super and the cop came in...and Oswald was walking away from that entry [20 ft toward the end of the lunchroom] Why would Oswald have made himself walk beyond the machine and then back again to buy the soda that he seemed to want anyway?
Emphasis was placed on the part that stated that "the man was empty handed". This would certainly negate the time spent on activating a soda machine.
Yet there was some ascribed certainty that Lee did indeed possess a soda...to wit...Coca Cola after the encounter. Why? It should have been moot at that point because he had nothing in his hands [it is declared] during the encounter.
So...was the Coke issue even a thing back in Sept 1964? Well---maybe it was and then again maybe it wasn't :-\
I concede that Burnett wrote the [Baker] note. I still don't understand the purpose of the note.
The purpose of the revised Baker affidavit was to expunge the Coca Cola from evidence. It had become obvious to LBJ's special committee that if Lee Oswald had a coke in his hand when Baker and Truly encounteed him in the lunchroom then that fact cleared Lee Oswald because in performing the imagined flight of Lee Oswald
they discovered that Lee would have arrived at the lunchroom just one second before Baker reached the place on the stairs where he could have seen the lunchroom door. And if Lee had arrived at the lunchroom just one second earlier then he would not have had time enough to purchase a coke. But the official tale said that Lee was calmly drinking a coke in the lunchroom when Baker burst into the room with his revolver in his hand.
That was the reason for expunging the coke entry in that revised affidavit. They could easily have simply rewritten the affidavit and omitted the part about Lee having a coke in his hand, but that's not what the shyster lawyers wanted.
-
Almost all of the testimonies were classified as Top Secret. Adams' testimony wasn't bothersome to the WC.
(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
Here's the deal...People can't just arbitrarily decide to classify stuff however they want.
This is primarily a military classification...not to be taken so lightly.
This enhances my suspicion that the Pentagon was more involved in the JFK assassination than one might think.
Top Secret is a classification that means 'Exceptionally grave and possibly irreparable damage to the security of the United States".
So how could this testimony from Ms Adams in particular have resulted in such consequences?
Again ...if it "wasn't bothersome" why was it so summarily classified?
-
(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
Here's the deal...People can't just arbitrarily decide to classify stuff however they want.
This is primarily a military classification...not to be taken so lightly.
This enhances my suspicion that the Pentagon was more involved in the JFK assassination than one might think.
Top Secret is a classification that means 'Exceptionally grave and possibly irreparable damage to the security of the United States".
So how could this testimony from Ms Adams in particular have resulted in such consequences?
Again ...if it "wasn't bothersome" why was it so summarily classified?
Right. You're not a "Conspiracy Theorist" (nor a Republican). :D
The Adams testimony was declassified and published in 1964 ( Link (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_Preface.pdf) ). Probably some standard procedure when having closed hearings to initially classify it "Top Secret".
-
Right. You're not a "Conspiracy Theorist" (nor a Republican). :D
And you're not a clown huh? :D
The Adams testimony was declassified and published in 1964. Probably some standard procedure when having closed hearings to initially classify it "Top Secret".
The Adams statement was classified Top Secret and yet George DeMohrenschildt's was only just Secret...
Who was the more case sensitive would we think?
There were two versions of Ms Adams' testimony papers ...one she signed----
(https://i.ibb.co/PzHQZNz/vicky-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PzHQZNz)
and one she didn't---
(https://i.ibb.co/n0NV23J/vicky-1.webp) (https://ibb.co/n0NV23J)
Reader click on image for full screen.
-
Ray Mitcham -----
Why,in his same day affidavit, did your independent witness, Marion Baker state "As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket." ?
Mr. BELIN - Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository Building on that day?
Mr. BAKER - He was the same man.
Mr. BELIN - Is there anything else about his clothes that you can remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; I can't.
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN - He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER - He looked like he did not have the same on.
Q> Why didn't that skunk [Belin] pursue the obvious question...What was different?
A> Because it demonstrates that LHO did change his shirt as he had stated perhaps?
-
Right. You're not a "Conspiracy Theorist" (nor a Republican).
The Adams testimony was declassified and published in 1964 ( Link (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_Preface.pdf) ). Probably some standard procedure when having closed hearings to initially classify it "Top Secret".
So Victoria Adams' testimony had the same classification as the nuclear launch codes? :D