JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jim Hawthorn on January 24, 2024, 01:18:59 PM
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Looking through all the films and documentation, crammed with contradicting evidence I get dizzy and frustrated. I can find myself convinced by an LN argument then convinced by a CT counter argument. It goes on and on around in circles.
Then I realised that the explanation that solves the whole riddle is that there were two totally independent plots, the participants of which, had no idea that the other was in play (until the shots rang out that is). I think this subject has already been discussed here, so I searched a little but the search motor came up with nothing. Please point me to existing thread and/or books which relate to this theory. Anyway, how I see it:
There were two unrelated plots (a theory):
1. The conspiracy involving the recruitment of one or two professional gunmen (not a wide "government" plot but a small group of powerful individuals),
2. Lee Harvey Oswald, the "lone gunman" (playing out a plan in cahoots with the CIA).
On the day of the assassination, as the ground level sniper(s) prepared to take the kill shot, they heard a shot ring out, and another. WTF? Was that a backfire? A firework? Another shooter? If there were two professionals down there, they might have thought that the other had already let off a shot. Whatever, I have to to take my contracted kill shot (from the front, side or wherever).
As for Oswald, he had also seen the route plan and realised that it passed by his workplace. What an opportunity to create a scare and reinforce my image as a pro-Castrist! Yes, Oswald's intention was to merely let off a few rounds (with his rusty, misaligned rifle), as if it was an assassination attempt. He fired into the ground with the first shot. Another went further along, hitting a kerb stone and spitting out fragments. A third shot? Maybe, and maybe it did end up within the presidential limo. He heard shots that weren't his! Or was that an echo?
He didn't see that JFK had been hit and he descended, thinking only that his little scaremongery exercise had gone as planned. Of course, the rifle and bag would be found but that was part of the plan - a little jail sentence for disturbance of the peace and his portrayal as a communist/pro-Castrist was nicely bolstered, ready for the next part of his mission (as an inside informer for the CIA in Cuba).
Or perhaps he did see Kennedy's head explode and was thrown into a panic, so he grabbed his revolver from home and decided to leave town. His flight was thwarted by Tippit. He dashed into a cinema and tried to find someone who could give him a lift out of town. He's captured and realises the dilemma he has found himself in. Did he feel that he had been set up? "I'm just the patsy!". He tries to get a phone call out to Langley for help...
Then he was at the mercy of the bumbling DPD, the FBI and finally the Warren Commission to tidy things up for the American public and the World stage, to make it all point to Oswald, at all cost.
So in fact on that fateful day, there was an incredible coincidence. That's what it was. Two separate plots, totally unrelated and it is that which has led to decades of all these half-convincing theories.
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Looking through all the films and documentation, crammed with contradicting evidence I get dizzy and frustrated. I can find myself convinced by an LN argument then convinced by a CT counter argument. It goes on and on around in circles.
Then I realised that the explanation that solves the whole riddle is that there were two totally independent plots, the participants of which, had no idea that the other was in play (until the shots rang out that is). I think this subject has already been discussed here, so I searched a little but the search motor came up with nothing. Please point me to existing thread and/or books which relate to this theory. Anyway, how I see it:
There were two unrelated plots (a theory):
1. The conspiracy involving the recruitment of one or two professional gunmen (not a wide "government" plot but a small group of powerful individuals),
2. Lee Harvey Oswald, the "lone gunman" (playing out a plan in cahoots with the CIA).
On the day of the assassination, as the ground level sniper(s) prepared to take the kill shot, they heard a shot ring out, and another. WTF? Was that a backfire? A firework? Another shooter? If there were two professionals down there, they might have thought that the other had already let off a shot. Whatever, I have to to take my contracted kill shot (from the front, side or wherever).
As for Oswald, he had also seen the route plan and realised that it passed by his workplace. What an opportunity to create a scare and reinforce my image as a pro-Castrist! Yes, Oswald's intention was to merely let off a few rounds (with his rusty, misaligned rifle), as if it was an assassination attempt. He fired into the ground with the first shot. Another went further along, hitting a kerb stone and spitting out fragments. A third shot? Maybe, and maybe it did end up within the presidential limo. He heard shots that weren't his! Or was that an echo?
He didn't see that JFK had been hit and he descended, thinking only that his little scaremongery exercise had gone as planned. Of course, the rifle and bag would be found but that was part of the plan - a little jail sentence for disturbance of the peace and his portrayal as a communist/pro-Castrist was nicely bolstered, ready for the next part of his mission (as an inside informer for the CIA in Cuba).
Or perhaps he did see Kennedy's head explode and was thrown into a panic, so he grabbed his revolver from home and decided to leave town. His flight was thwarted by Tippit. He dashed into a cinema and tried to find someone who could give him a lift out of town. He's captured and realises the dilemma he has found himself in. Did he feel that he had been set up? "I'm just the patsy!". He tries to get a phone call out to Langley for help...
Then he was at the mercy of the bumbling DPD, the FBI and finally the Warren Commission to tidy things up for the American public and the World stage, to make it all point to Oswald, at all cost.
So in fact on that fateful day, there was an incredible coincidence. That's what it was. Two separate plots, totally unrelated and it is that which has led to decades of all these half-convincing theories.
Oliver Stone might be interested in your fantasy. Have you contacted him yet?
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The odds of two unrelated plots that converge on the day, time, and place are so mind boggling that I can't believe this is for real. The odds would a trillion to one. Wow.
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The odds of two unrelated plots that converge on the day, time, and place are so mind boggling that I can't believe this is for real. The odds would a trillion to one. Wow.
I don't think so. The motorcade came past Oswald's place of work. What an opportunity for him to pull a stunt (because that's all it was with that lousy rifle left to be found).
At the same time, the conspirators saw that motorcade would slow right down to go around Dealy Plaza. Perfect for the hit!
I think that there actually was an extraordinary coincidence that day.
I have never accepted that a shooter, even Oswald, would try and shoot the President from a position where he could be so easily identified or discovered (on the 6th floor of a building full of people) and I don't believe he was a deranged nut who didn't care if he was caught. He had no connection with the actual conspirators.
Think it over. That amazing coincidence explains everything that happened, better than any other theory that I've come across.
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I don't think so. The motorcade came past Oswald's place of work. What an opportunity for him to pull a stunt (because that's all it was with that lousy rifle left to be found).
At the same time, the conspirators saw that motorcade would slow right down to go around Dealy Plaza. Perfect for the hit!
I think that there actually was an extraordinary coincidence that day.
I have never accepted that a shooter, even Oswald, would try and shoot the President from a position where he could be so easily identified or discovered (on the 6th floor of a building full of people) and I don't believe he was a deranged nut who didn't care if he was caught. He had no connection with the actual conspirators.
Think it over. That amazing coincidence explains everything that happened, better than any other theory that I've come across.
Even your own baseless theory here has Oswald firing the shots. So how exactly does expressing doubt that he would shoot the president from a position where he could be so easily identified advance your double conspiracy theory that accepts Oswald as a shooter? And how do you think Oswald could have pulled this off without being identified? He was a former defector to the USSR who worked in the building from which the shots were fired. Oswald knew there was no getting away with this act. He accepted death or arrest in making his decision to carry it out. It came with the territory. He was likely as surprised as anyone that he pulled it off and got out of the building.
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Even your own baseless theory here has Oswald firing the shots. So how exactly does expressing doubt that he would shoot the president from a position where he could be so easily identified advance your double conspiracy theory that accepts Oswald as a shooter? And how do you think Oswald could have pulled this off without being identified? He was a former defector to the USSR who worked in the building from which the shots were fired. Oswald knew there was no getting away with this act. He accepted death or arrest in making his decision to carry it out. It came with the territory. He was likely as surprised as anyone that he pulled it off and got out of the building.
I don't think he accepted arrest or death (for an assassination attempt) at all. His behaviour after the event reveals that - he looked very troubled and mystified by what was going on. No, I'm convinced it was just a stunt with a lousy rifle firing into the ground (twice). He expected to be arrested for that stunt (which is why he left the rifle, cartridges, bag and prints) but not for murder. Whether he killed Tippet or not is open for discussion (seeing as the chain of evidence was all over the place).
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Oliver Stone might be interested in your fantasy. Have you contacted him yet?
I'm thinking that Oswald would have received more than a simple "disturbing the peace" charge for taking shots at JFK. This was a crowded street, the president, et cetera. Was he going to argue that he was just kidding? A Judge would accept that? Given his documented radical background I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded that he was just pretending. He's going to be put away for years. So much for the "Then he gets out, goes to Cuba, is welcomed by them, and spies on Havana for the CIA" idea.
If the CIA (them again) wanted to pad his legend, his pro-Castro resume I would think they'd just have him approach the limo waving a Cuban flag or photo of Castro and shouting "Viva the Revolution" or something? Not pretend to shoot at him.
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I'm thinking that Oswald would have received more than a simple "disturbing the peace" charge for taking shots at JFK. This was a crowded street, the president, et cetera. Was he going to argue that he was just kidding? A Judge would accept that? Given his documented radical background I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded that he was just pretending. He's going to be put away for years. So much for the "Then he gets out, goes to Cuba, is welcomed by them, and spies on Havana for the CIA" idea.
If the CIA (them again) wanted to pad his legend, his pro-Castro resume I would think they'd just have him approach the limo waving a Cuban flag or photo of Castro and shouting "Viva the Revolution" or something? Not pretend to shoot at him.
Good point - unless Oswald wanted to do something far more dramatic than wave a flag. However, for all we know, Oswald might have fired Blancs.
The fact that he tried to call the Langley area doesn't fit with he LN assassin idea.
Even if the "stunt" theory is ruled out, the coincidence theory still holds up.
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I don't think he accepted arrest or death (for an assassination attempt) at all. His behaviour after the event reveals that - he looked very troubled and mystified by what was going on. No, I'm convinced it was just a stunt with a lousy rifle firing into the ground (twice). He expected to be arrested for that stunt (which is why he left the rifle, cartridges, bag and prints) but not for murder. Whether he killed Tippet or not is open for discussion (seeing as the chain of evidence was all over the place).
You believe looking "troubled" is inconsistent with someone knowing he is going to be arrested or killed and somehow lends itself to innocence despite all the evidence that he left behind? Oswald killed Tippit in broad daylight on a public street in the presence of several witnesses who identified him as the person with the gun. He is stone cold guilty of both the JFK and Tippit murders. In fact, it is difficult to contemplate how there could be much more evidence of the fact than exists.
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You believe looking "troubled" is inconsistent with someone knowing he is going to be arrested or killed and somehow lends itself to innocence despite all the evidence that he left behind? Oswald killed Tippit in broad daylight on a public street in the presence of several witnesses who identified him as the person with the gun. He is stone cold guilty of both the JFK and Tippit murders. In fact, it is difficult to contemplate how there could be much more evidence of the fact than exists.
A possibility is that his troubled look is due to the fact that he realised that he was in fact being accused of killing the POTUS! - something that he hadn't planned to do at all. THAT is the gravity of his predicament hitting home. I suggest (I'm only throwing this out there by the way) that for Oswald, his descent from the 6th was supposed to be amidst an atmosphere of confusion about shots ringing out (his own dummy shots). To his horror, JFK had actually been shot and from then on, his own plans were in total disarray and he fled.
I agree that it does look like he killed Tippit but that doesn't prove that he intentionally tried to assassinate JFK. It has been theorised that Tippit was involved in the plot concerning Oswald (to escort him to a Dallas airfield). The theory is that Tippet realised that this whole thing might have been related to the assassination and he quizzed Oswald about it and things got heated, leading to him moving in on Lee and thus getting shot and silenced forever.
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A possibility is that his troubled look is due to the fact that he realised that he was in fact being accused of killing the POTUS! - something that he hadn't planned to do at all. THAT is the gravity of his predicament hitting home. I suggest (I'm only throwing this out there by the way) that for Oswald, his descent from the 6th was supposed by among an atmosphere of confusion about shots ringing out (his own dummy shots). To his horror, JFK had actually been shot and from then on, his own plans were in total disarray and he fled.
I agree that it does look like he killed at Tippit but that doesn't prove that he intentionally tried to assassinate JFK. It has been theorised that Tippit was involved in the plot concerning Oswald (to escort him to a Dallas airfield). The theory is that Tippet realised that this whole thing might have been related to the assassination and he quizzed Oswald about it and things got heated, leading to him moving in on Lee and thus getting shot and silenced forever.
I'm losing track of your narrative. How could there be a plot against Oswald within an hour of the assassination if your theory is that the real assassins were working independently from Oswald, and it was just a tillion to one coincidence that Oswald stuck his rifle out the window and yelled "bang." How would they even know he existed much less organize a plot to have Tippit approach him?
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I'm losing track of your narrative. How could there be a plot against Oswald within an hour of the assassination...
There was no plot against Oswald at all. The theory is that he acted alone on the day as part of the non-assassination stunt to get him arrested (to strengthen his image as a pro-Castrist activist).
He was seen at that TSBD window and the description of him led to his capture. The DPD were convinced they had captured the assassin.
... and it was just a trillion to one coincidence that Oswald stuck his rifle out the window and yelled "bang." How would they even know he existed much less organize a plot to have Tippit approach him?
Why would it be a trillion to one coincidence? The situation of the motorcade coming into that funnel was too good to miss for any scheming minds during that politically volatile time. I don't find it at all far-fetched that two separate plots were under way.
...Oswald stuck his rifle out the window and yelled "bang."
No, he actually fired a shot or two (blanks?).
How would they even know he existed much less organize a plot to have Tippit approach him?
The conspiracy cell was totally unaware of Oswald until he was captured. Remember that the conspirators and the government framing of Oswald are two separate things.
As for the Tippit incident, we can't know for sure what exactly happened. Was Tippit simply questioning him because he fit the description that had been put out? Oswald was seen leaning on the passenger seat window frame of Tippit's car, seemingly chatting to him. Is that how an officer would conduct the questioning of a suspect? Who could possible be armed?
Which brings us to the theory that Tippit was part of the Oswald/CIA (rogue CIA?) stunt and his part to play was the picking up of Oswald, not far from his residence. Tippit might not even have any idea that a stunt was to be pulled that day (simply the chauffeur). There is even that theory (not mine) that he was to take Oswald to the airfield where a plane was revving, waiting to fly him to Cuba. The rifle would be found at the TSBD (as planned) and linked to Hidell/Oswald (as planned).
However, when Tippit heard that JFK had been murdered (by the conspirators), he realised the gravity of what was going on and that he might have been part of it! Too heavy. So when he began to get suspicious of Oswald - "Hold on a minute there. Does this have anything to do with what just happened!?" - and then he moved in on him, to arrest him - blam!
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I don't think so. The motorcade came past Oswald's place of work. What an opportunity for him to pull a stunt (because that's all it was with that lousy rifle left to be found).
At the same time, the conspirators saw that motorcade would slow right down to go around Dealy Plaza. Perfect for the hit!
I think that there actually was an extraordinary coincidence that day.
I have never accepted that a shooter, even Oswald, would try and shoot the President from a position where he could be so easily identified or discovered (on the 6th floor of a building full of people) and I don't believe he was a deranged nut who didn't care if he was caught. He had no connection with the actual conspirators.
Think it over. That amazing coincidence explains everything that happened, better than any other theory that I've come across.
Haven't we been told repeatedly by a lot of CT rifle "experts" and an expert Marine sniper or two, that firing into a moving Limousine was near impossible and hence the need for 27 snipers, and let's face it, the only reason Oswald tried and accomplished his task, was because it was going to be virtually the only opportunity he would have.
But the reality is, another team of assassinators with much more time and access to other locations would very likely choose a place where Kennedy was at the very least stationary and therefore negating the need for a triangulation of multiple snipers on a crowded street?
(https://i.insider.com/62ff8a94ec781d001868d1b9?width=700)
JohnM
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Haven't we been told repeatedly by a lot of CT rifle "experts" and an expert Marine sniper or two, that firing into a moving Limousine was near impossible and hence the need for 27 snipers, and let's face it, the only reason Oswald tried and accomplished his task, was because it was going to be virtually the only opportunity he would have.
That is pretty well lining up with what I'm saying. An amazing opportunity for Oswald and he jumped at the chance. Then comes the speculation around whether actually tried to kill JFK or if he shot into the ground or fired blanks. Of course the bullets were matched to his rifle but the CTers will say that those bullets were plants by the government framers (not by the small conspiracy cell).
But the reality is, another team of assassinators with much more time and access to other locations would very likely choose a place where Kennedy was at the very least stationary and therefore negating the need for a triangulation of multiple snipers on a crowded street?
Well a situation like the one you showed (a large public appearance) was far easier for the security teams to hermetically seal off. They couldn't sustain that level of security along the entire route to where he was to give a speech. There were thousands of windows along that route - danger at every point. It seems that they did tighten things up for the turn at Dealey Plaza but for anyone with bad intentions, it remained the ideal place for a hit (or a stunt). After all, a car that is moving towards you or away from you is relatively static through a gun sight.
So in the scenario I'm chewing over, Oswald's (real or dummy) shots might have startled the conspiracy assassin(s), creating a moment's hesitation on his/their part (WTF?) but the hit was accomplished as the limo levelled with the car park/grassy knoll.