JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on March 26, 2020, 03:27:02 AM
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The question that never gets answered by conspiracy theorists:
If Oswald wasn't in Mexico City, then where was he?
He's missing from Sept 25th to Oct 3rd, with zero sightings of him anywhere in-between (except of course inconveniently on the bus to Mexico City and at the Cuban and Soviet consulates there).
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The question that never gets answered by conspiracy theorists:
If Oswald wasn't in Mexico City, then where was he?
That's an argument from ignorance. You could do that with any claim.
For example: if Oswald wasn't at Silvia Odio's apartment, then where was he?
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argument-from-Ignorance (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argument-from-Ignorance)
And what does the question of whether he was in Mexico city or not have to do with conspiracy theories?
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And what does the question of whether he was in Mexico city or not have to do with conspiracy theories?
People are entitled to say Oswald was not in Mexico City, but they must come up with an alternative timeline for Oswalds movements from Sept 25th to Oct 3rd. And they never do.
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People are entitled to say Oswald was not in Mexico City, but they must come up with an alternative timeline for Oswalds movements from Sept 25th to Oct 3rd. And they never do.
Why must they? Are you automatically correct until you are proven wrong?
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Why must they? Are you automatically correct until you are proven wrong?
Well i'm curious to know where he was if he was not in Mexico City.
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The question that never gets answered by conspiracy theorists:
If Oswald wasn't in Mexico City, then where was he?
He's missing from Sept 25th to Oct 3rd, with zero sightings of him anywhere in-between (except of course inconveniently on the bus to Mexico City and at the Cuban and Soviet consulates there).
Good question.
For those interested in discussing this event and in trying to figure out what happened (as best as we can) - specifically about whether he went to Mexico City - it's the type of question they would welcome.
When people discuss historic events, whether controversial ones like the assassination or others, they look at the event from all sort of angles and perspectives. As in: if we're not sure about what did happen we ask about alternative explanations for what did. Then we weigh them, consider what is more or less likely.
But you'll see that the posters who say they're "undecided" on this - they're not a lone assassin adherent or, they claim, a conspiracy believer - will dismiss these types of questions. If they're not being simple-minded Oswald defenders I'm not sure why they do this.
So we have evidence he went to Mexico City. What evidence do we have that he was elsewhere over this period? What is the alternative explanation for him having, for example, the Cuban secretary's (Silvia Duran's) phone number in his address book?
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Good question.
For those interested in discussing this event and in trying to figure out what happened (as best as we can) - specifically about whether he went to Mexico City - it's the type of question they would welcome.
When people discuss historic events, whether controversial ones like the assassination or others, they look at the event from all sort of angles and perspectives. As in: if we're not sure about what did happen we ask about alternative explanations for what did. Then we weigh them, consider what is more or less likely.
But you'll see that the posters who say they're "undecided" on this - they're not a lone assassin adherent or, they claim, a conspiracy believer - will dismiss these types of questions. If they're not being simple-minded Oswald defenders I'm not sure why they do this.
So we have evidence he went to Mexico City. What evidence do we have that he was elsewhere over this period? What is the alternative explanation for him having, for example, the Cuban secretary's (Silvia Duran's) phone number in his address book?
Mr. Galbraith, I have additional "good questions" for you and your "brain trust" over at the .alt newsgroup, but lack the patience to immerse myself in the non-denial, denial, or outright denial.
What do you make of this... I discovered and documented Grossi / Bowen informing author Epstein that Oswald brought his MC rifle to their place of employment and that James H Martin had an interestingly similar criminal background as Grossi / Bowen with the US Navy at approx. the same time, both were car thieves, and Martin claimed the government had run his background and "propositioned him" into taking Marina and her two girls into his home. Not the stuff of lone nuttery!
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=71122&search=martin_and+%221941+chevrolet+car%22#relPageId=4&tab=page
FBI - HSCA Subject File: James Herbert Martin/
https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1252
Anybody want to attempt to explain why Fleda Ryder Bowen Mantooth's brother, Dial Ryder, and her former husband Jack Bowen, father of their son, wanted the public to believe Oswald just happened to present "his rifle" to both of them? Doesn't seem to fit the "lone nut" narrative, but more like conspiring of a felon or two, to plant or to cement a narrative? ....
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The question that never gets answered by conspiracy theorists:
If Oswald wasn't in Mexico City, then where was he?
He's missing from Sept 25th to Oct 3rd, with zero sightings of him anywhere in-between (except of course inconveniently on the bus to Mexico City and at the Cuban and Soviet consulates there).
He's missing from Sept 25th to Oct 3rd, with zero sightings of him anywhere in-between
How do you know he wasn't seen? Let me guess, it was the WC that told you, right?
What if his absence simply fitted the narrative? Sylvia Odio claimed to have seen him in that time frame and the WC dismissed her testimony.....
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The conspiracy historian John Newman (and some posters here: see the threads on this issue) have said that Oswadl's visit to Mexico City was faked or staged by the real murderers of JFK. It was undertaken to connect Oswald to either Cuba or the Soviets and when the subsequent WC investigation was done and it discovered these contacts everything was stopped out of a fear that it could lead to a war with Moscow.
Other conspiracy believers such as Peter Dale Scott and Bill Simpich said this was faked by elements of the CIA in order to blame Castro and justify an overthrow of the regime.
Newman's thesis is laid out here: http://www.jfklancer.com/backes/newman/newman_1.html
The noted Mary Ferrell JFK assassination site has numerous articles making these same general claims. That is, the visit was faked. That is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Oswald_in_Mexico_City.html
Back to the question: The evidence is he went to MC. What is the counter evidence that he was seen or went elsewhere? We consider the evidence he went, we look at alternative explanations and make a judgment.
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The conspiracy historian John Newman (and some posters here: see the threads on this issue) have said that Oswadl's visit to Mexico City was faked or staged by the real murderers of JFK. It was undertaken to connect Oswald to either Cuba or the Soviets and when the subsequent WC investigation was done and it discovered these contacts everything was stopped out of a fear that it could lead to a war with Moscow.
Other conspiracy believers such as Peter Dale Scott and Bill Simpich said this was faked by elements of the CIA in order to blame Castro and justify an overthrow of the regime.
Newman's thesis is laid out here: http://www.jfklancer.com/backes/newman/newman_1.html
The noted Mary Ferrell JFK assassination site has numerous articles making these same general claims. That is, the visit was faked. That is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Oswald_in_Mexico_City.html
Back to the question: The evidence is he went to MC. What is the counter evidence that he was seen or went elsewhere? We consider the evidence he went, we look at alternative explanations and make a judgment.
Another question for you, Steve? How would this anti-Castro propagandist, Barnes, know how to "recognize" what is attributed to him, here? Barnes's Florida address just happened to be in proximity of where
JMWAVE was first set up by Justin whats-his-name, in Coral Gables. Barnes is accounted for in the Mexican customs records @maryferrell.org, at the time in question!!
Search Results google.com link (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=QNh8XrqRFPC1tgXx5JKACA&q=henry+breck+fight+harder+they+have+to&oq=henry+breck+fight+harder+they+have+to&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.1283.19627..20053...5.0..4.2041.10476.24j8j5-2j2j2j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0j0i131j0i22i30j0i13j0i13i10j33i160.pDvf8k5Vj5U&ved=0ahUKEwi6se7Vx7joAhXwmq0KHXGyBIAQ4dUDCAc&uact=5)
Web results
The Oxford Dictionary of American Quotationsbooks.google.com › books
Hugh Rawson, Margaret Miner - 2006 - Reference
You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much. ... The ones with the more money have more to eat and drink at their affairs, and their clothes cost ... The upper classes fight the hardest. They have the most to lose. —Henry Breck, quoted in Evan Thomas, The Very Best Men [1995] ☆ Mr. Breck was a CIA ...
http://randompixels.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-way-we-werethe-cia-in-1960s-miami.html
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......While JMWAVE was by far the biggest, it was neither the first nor the only CIA presence in Miami . That distinction belonged to Justin F. "Jay" Gleichauf, who arrived shortly after Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista fled into exile on New Year's Day of 1959. Gleichauf told his story more than 40 years later in an unclassified CIA publication. "I had no inkling [when Batista fell] that within two weeks I would be in Miami as head - and sole staffer - of a newly authorized office of the Domestic Contacts Division in the Directorate of Intelligence," he wrote.
Gleichauf opened an overt CIA office at 299 Alhambra Circle in Coral Gables. Its basic function was to be a Cuba "listening post." To aid his effort, Gleichauf listed a CIA number - but no address - in the phone book and passed out business cards with his home number, resulting in calls from "a motley collection of weirdos" as well as some irate Castro supporters.......
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EssoCubaWinifredBarnesSeeingPeople.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EssoCubaWinifredBarnes.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/WinstonCbarnesOneOfTheLast.jpg)
And Steve, I began this post quoting Henry Breck, former CIA agent. In your belief system, neither GHW Bush, nor Tony Lapham, Bush's chosen CIA consul had any prior CIA affiliation, despite Bush, a one year DCI being honored with his name on the CIA building.
Lapham and Henry Breck attended no schools in common and I find nothing leading to their extremely close relationship.....maybe I'm just not thorough enough? LOL !
https://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/21/archives/henry-r-breck-weds-miss-mccrary.html
Henry R. Breck Weds Miss McCrary - The New York Timeswww.nytimes.com › 1973/01/21 › archives › henry-r-breck-weds-miss-...
Jan 21, 1973 - Four ‐ year ‐ old Nicholas Lapham, godson of the bridegroom, served as page. His father, Anthony A. Lapham, was best man. Editors' Picks ...
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The evidence that we have either proves that he went to Mexico or it doesn't. This idea that your narrative is automatically correct unless a better "alternative explanation" can be proven is fundamentally flawed. If the evidence is inconclusive then it's inconclusive.
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The evidence that we have either proves that he went to Mexico or it doesn't. This idea that your narrative is automatically correct unless a better "alternative explanation" can be proven is fundamentally flawed. If the evidence is inconclusive then it's inconclusive.
John, no wonder why you are so unpopular! What more proof do you need, than this? LOL
https://cuban-exile.com/doc_201-225/doc0216.html
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BARNES, Winfred C. (Amer.); wife, Lois Helena Enquist (Amer.); ch.: Helga, Gretchen, Clark. Marketing Mgr., Esso Standard Oil, S.A. Edif. Alujor, N. y 23 Vedado. Tel. 30-3121. Apdo. 4087. Res. Ave. 13 y 202, Biltmore, Mar. Tel. 21-9888. Clubs: Petro., Hav. Bilt.; wife: W.
....
http://randompixels.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-way-we-werethe-cia-in-1960s-miami.html
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......While JMWAVE was by far the biggest, it was neither the first nor the only CIA presence in Miami . That distinction belonged to Justin F. "Jay" Gleichauf, who arrived shortly after Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista fled into exile on New Year's Day of 1959. Gleichauf told his story more than 40 years later in an unclassified CIA publication. "I had no inkling [when Batista fell] that within two weeks I would be in Miami as head - and sole staffer - of a newly authorized office of the Domestic Contacts Division in the Directorate of Intelligence," he wrote.
Gleichauf opened an overt CIA office at 299 Alhambra Circle in Coral Gables. Its basic function was to be a Cuba "listening post." To aid his effort, Gleichauf listed a CIA number - but no address - in the phone book and passed out business cards with his home number, resulting in calls from "a motley collection of weirdos" as well as some irate Castro supporters.......
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EssoCubaWinifredBarnesSeeingPeople.jpg)
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(http://jfkforum.com/images/WinstonCbarnesOneOfTheLast.jpg)
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Not only can we ask the question: If he didn't go to Mexico City then where was he over that week or so? We can also ask how did those who allegedly impersonated him know where he was in order to pull this plan off?
What would happen if he had stayed in New Orleans and had been seen by people who could give him an alibi? In order to frame him for going to Mexico City he can't have an alibi, he can't be seen by others at that same time. So these supposed agents who framed him would have to be confident (wouldn't they?) that for those eight days Oswald would never been seen by people who could expose this act.
This is the same type of question for those who say he was framed for shooting JFK. How did the framers know where he was at 12:30?
Do the conspiracy believers really think this is all possible? Are there any limits on the ability to frame him? Any at all?
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Not only can we ask the question: If he didn't go to Mexico City then where was he over that week or so? We can also ask how did those who allegedly impersonated him know where he was in order to pull this plan off?
What would happen if he had stayed in New Orleans and had been seen by people who could give him an alibi? In order to frame him for going to Mexico City he can't have an alibi, he can't be seen by others at that same time. So these supposed agents who framed him would have to be confident (wouldn't they?) that for those eight days Oswald would never been seen by people who could expose this act.
This is the same type of question for those who say he was framed for shooting JFK. How did the framers know where he was at 12:30?
Do the conspiracy believers really think this is all possible? Are there any limits on the ability to frame him? Any at all?
You ask ask whatever questions you want. Just don't pretend that your questions somehow improve your case that Oswald committed the crime, and did so by himself.
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Well i'm curious to know where he was if he was not in Mexico City.
Too bad the Warren investigators/FBI weren't. But they all liked the story line......Oswald was going to Cuba to teach them rifle training.
Only one thing...Oswald couldn't speak Spanish :D
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Guy who shares address with JMWave alerts FBI of some Oswald related nonsense after having to abandon his oil corp's $80 million oil refinery to Castro.
Looks like Oswald was painted as convenient justification for a bigger, better BOP invasion.
It's always about the Benjamins instead of about the evidence.
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John, no wonder why you are so unpopular! What more proof do you need, than this? LOL
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EssoCubaWinifredBarnesSeeingPeople.jpg)
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(http://jfkforum.com/images/WinstonCbarnesOneOfTheLast.jpg)
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Bumpin' this. Thank you, Tom. Hoping today finds you and the Chef OK +
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Not only can we ask the question: If he didn't go to Mexico City then where was he over that week or so? We can also ask how did those who allegedly impersonated him know where he was in order to pull this plan off?
What would happen if he had stayed in New Orleans and had been seen by people who could give him an alibi? In order to frame him for going to Mexico City he can't have an alibi, he can't be seen by others at that same time. So these supposed agents who framed him would have to be confident (wouldn't they?) that for those eight days Oswald would never been seen by people who could expose this act.
This is the same type of question for those who say he was framed for shooting JFK. How did the framers know where he was at 12:30?
Do the conspiracy believers really think this is all possible? Are there any limits on the ability to frame him? Any at all?
If the conspirators controlled the narrative after the fact, it wouldn't have mattered if people had seen him somewhere. Their testimony (if it ever came to that) would simply be dismissed as mistaken. Odio claimed she had seen Oswald, when he was supposed to be in Mexico, and the WC simply said she was mistaken.
There are all sorts of examples of pro-Oswald evidence being dismissed. Some, potentially crucial, witnesses were simply not called to testify at all. Others had their testimony tampered with, were (unfairly) discredited and/or were publicly ridiculed.
You make it sound so easy for a pro-Oswald witness to come forward, and perhaps nowadays with social media it is, at least to some extend, but back in 1963 with limited communication possibilities and a lot of people being fearful to come forward or go against the Government, it would be a very different story.
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Too bad the Warren investigators/FBI weren't. But they all liked the story line......Oswald was going to Cuba to teach them rifle training.
Only one thing...Oswald couldn't speak Spanish :D
He was learning to speak Spanish though. Marina said he had a Spanish-English dictionary. That is consistent with him planning to go to Cuba, which consequently is consistent with him being in Mexico City trying to get to Cuba.
That is strong circumstantial evidence that it was indeed Oswald in Mexico City.
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He was learning to speak Spanish though. Marina said he had a Spanish-English dictionary. That is consistent with him planning to go to Cuba, which consequently is consistent with him being in Mexico City trying to get to Cuba.
That is strong circumstantial evidence that it was indeed Oswald in Mexico City.
No it isn't... It's at best evidence that he had a Spanish-English dictionary.
In New Orleans he had contacts with Cubans... The dictionary may just as easily have been used for the purpose of improving communication with them.
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He was learning to speak Spanish though. Marina said he had a Spanish-English dictionary.
That is strong circumstantial evidence that it was indeed Oswald in Mexico City.
Do you speak Spanish?...or any foreign language?
Asking because that is not how you learn to speak a language....with dictionaries.
Lee knew Russian...a very difficult language with a different alphabet.
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Do you speak Spanish?...or any foreign language?
Asking because that is not how you learn to speak a language....with dictionaries.
Lee knew Russian...a very difficult language with a different alphabet.
What do you think the dictionary was for then? If that was not to learn Spanish, in what way would one use a dictionary to help learn a new language?