JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Matt Grantham on June 27, 2018, 08:27:27 PM
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A link to a video Baker heading towards the TSBD Pretty striking how virtually everyone else heading south towards the knoll Yet we are supposed to believe the majority of witnesses thought the shoots came from the TSBD?
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A link to a video Baker heading towards the TSBD Pretty striking how virtually everyone else heading south towards the knoll Yet we are supposed to believe the majority of witnesses thought the shoots came from the TSBD?
Well duh, people ran to where Kennedy was shot.
After Kennedy is shot why do you think that these SS agents are looking back at the general vicinity of the TSBD?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1K-AA4LrN14/maxresdefault.jpg)
JohnM
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They were chasing the limo? As to looking back in Altgens six, the frontal shot has not either happened yet or they have not had time to react to it/them
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They were chasing the limo? As to looking back in Altgens six, the frontal shot has not either happened yet or they have not had time to react to it/them
They were chasing the limo?
They were moving to the scene of the crime. Just like 54 years later people are drawn to the scene of the crime.
(https://dallasnews.imgix.net/PhotoX-1024x768.jpg?auto=format%2Cenhance&crop=faces%2Centropy&fit=crop&q=40&or=0&w=1024&h=543)
As to looking back in Altgens six, the frontal shot has not either happened yet or they have not had time to react to it/them
Thanks, so you agree that there were shots from behind but doesn't that make the whole point of your OP null and void? Doh!
JohnM
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There's better versions of that Darnell film on YT, much better, no one ever found anything in that copy, go find one and show me who's running towards a possble source of gunfire other than Baker, also explain why kids are left playing in the street and no one cares?
98% of your witnessses were all asked where the shots came from after they've all learnt JFK was dead from gun wounds, of course they had opinions they were right there and some who had left the scene came running right back after they learnt about it to tell us what they saw.
"Where do you think the shots came from?" Like anyone cares. Bowers could not tell, Baker guessed based on visual stimuli and anyone who saw Baker could guess too, that includes Jackson, Brennan and Euins.
Based on the films it seems to me, no one near the TSBD had the first clue to what was even happening.
m2c.
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Well duh, people ran to where Kennedy was shot.
After Kennedy is shot why do you think that these SS agents are looking back at the general vicinity of the TSBD?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1K-AA4LrN14/maxresdefault.jpg)
JohnM
(1) Where did Officer Hargis run? (2) Where did Officer Haygood run? They both ran UP the Knoll.
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They were chasing the limo? As to looking back in Altgens six, the frontal shot has not either happened yet or they have not had time to react to it/them
'They were chasing the limo?'
LOL. Tell us where JohnM said, implied or meant that.
You fck'n CTers. Always twisting what people said, in an attempt to make them look stupid. JohnM clearly said they were running to where Kennedy got shot. Tell us how that means they were chasing the limo.
You're just another CTrolling gaslighter.
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They were chasing the limo? As to looking back in Altgens six, the frontal shot has not either happened yet or they have not had time to react to it/them
Kennedy's fists are already at his throat, meaning two shots have already been fired
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(1) Where did Officer Hargis run? (2) Where did Officer Haygood run? They both ran UP the Knoll.
So what, they checked out the area where Kennedy was killed.
In the following photo which is obviously some time after the assassination, where are all the people who were drawn to the Knoll?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T2QT6eJa360/TZOWOf3GYkI/AAAAAAAATmA/Fq5vZ7eyMwI/s1600/ZZZ.%2BDealey%2BPlaza%2BAftermath%2B%25282%2529.jpg)
And unfortunately for you and your crazy theory, it looks like people ran straight past the classic position of the Knoll shooter and ran towards the railway overpass, most likely just following a cop who was just doing a routine check.
(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kut/files/styles/medium/public/201311/4._Press_Bus.jpg)
JohnM
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So what, they checked out the area where Kennedy was killed.
In the following photo which is obviously some time after the assassination, where are all the people who were drawn to the Knoll?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T2QT6eJa360/TZOWOf3GYkI/AAAAAAAATmA/Fq5vZ7eyMwI/s1600/ZZZ.%2BDealey%2BPlaza%2BAftermath%2B%25282%2529.jpg)
And unfortunately for you and your crazy theory, it looks like people ran straight past the classic position of the Knoll shooter and ran towards the railway overpass, most likely just following a cop who was just doing a routine check.
(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kut/files/styles/medium/public/201311/4._Press_Bus.jpg)
JohnM
obviously some time after the assassination
Really? With the Newmans and their kids still lying on the grass?
So, just how many seconds constitutes "obviously some time" in your mind?
Another typical Mytton exaggeration!
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obviously some time after the assassination
Really? With the Newmans and their kids still lying on the grass?
So, just how many seconds constitutes "obviously some time" in your mind?
Another typical Mytton exaggeration!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T2QT6eJa360/TZOWOf3GYkI/AAAAAAAATmA/Fq5vZ7eyMwI/s1600/ZZZ.%2BDealey%2BPlaza%2BAftermath%2B%25282%2529.jpg)
The Newans were clearly a valuable photo op and have been on the ground long enough for a crowd of photographers to gather, the other hint is that Umbrella Man and his mate are finally sitting and just appear bored.
Here's another photo of the Newmans who now appear relaxed and long after the photographers have moved on and we can still see no one running anywhere the classic knoll fence.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TO9I4_Un8CI/AAAAAAAAHEY/L8E2l15cQ-k/s530/116e.%2BDealey%2BPlaza%2BAftermath.jpg)
Ironically the only self serving time guestimate of what you claimed as "seconds" came from you. LOL!
But it doesn't really matter anyway because the photographic evidence that you just conveniently ignored clearly shows the first people who moved anywhere, moved right past the grassy knoll fence.
(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kut/files/styles/medium/public/201311/4._Press_Bus.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/N_Cr84sm_WI/hqdefault.jpg)
The Bell film shows a whole lot of people have arrived at the crime scene and nobody is running anywhere near the grassy knoll fence.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/ohqe5xcuj/Bell_film.jpg)
JohnM
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The Newans were clearly a valuable photo op and have been on the ground long enough for a crowd of photographers to gather, the other hint is that Umbrella Man and his mate are finally sitting and just appear bored.
Here's another photo of the Newmans who now appear relaxed and long after the photographers have moved on and we can still see no one running anywhere the classic knoll fence.
Ironically the only self serving time guestimate of what you claimed as "seconds" came from you. LOL!
But it doesn't really matter anyway because the photographic evidence that you just conveniently ignored clearly shows the first people who moved anywhere, moved right past the grassy knoll fence.
The Bell film shows a whole lot of people have arrived at the crime scene and nobody is running anywhere near the grassy knoll fence.
JohnM
Agreed. Clearly, the people are trying to see the limousine. A lot of people did not clearly see what happened to the President. For most, someone?s head was in the way of their view of the limousine at z312, since most viewers were to the northeast of the President, not standing alongside. Most would have difficulty seeing the limousine at all and didn?t realize that it was leaving the plaza at high speed after z345. So, they tried to go far enough to the southwest in hopes they could see the limousine and hopefully find out that President was not wounded. When they saw the limousine was no longer in the plaza, they headed for the overpass in hopes of seeing the limousine just on the other side, not realizing that the limousine immediately headed off at high speed for the hospital.
The real ?Rush for the Knoll? did not occur until a couple of minutes later, when it occurred to the people that since shots were fired, it would be prudent to get out of open spaces. For many people, the fastest way to get away from open spaces was to cross Elm Street, go up the grassy knoll and get some protection on the other side of the fences and monument.
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A link to a video Baker heading towards the TSBD Pretty striking how virtually everyone else heading south towards the knoll Yet we are supposed to believe the majority of witnesses thought the shoots came from the TSBD?
It's a herding instinct. From the Elm St. perspective, the knoll area is in proximity to where JFK was shot and appears to provide seclusion for a shooter. We know that isn't the case today because the backside of that area is entirely open to half of Dallas. No assassin would choose that as the location to fire the shots. That is what those folks discovered when they got there.
There was nothing to see. But in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, that would be a reasonable place to surmise the shots might have come from. Some people start moving in that direction and others start following withing having any independent knowledge as to where the shots came from.
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SENATOR COOPER - I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?
Mr. BAKER - I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
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'They were chasing the limo?'
LOL. Tell us where JohnM said, implied or meant that.
I like the three choice option of said, implied, or meanr
John M said Well duh, people ran to where Kennedy was shot.
That could be implied that he was shot in the Limo
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Kennedy's fists are already at his throat, meaning two shots have already been fired
Sorry your response is an utter non sequitur. Did you believe one of the first two shots was a frontal shot?
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Sorry your response is an utter non sequitur. Did you believe one of the first two shots was a frontal shot?
I'm not claiming any frontal shots.
Not a non-sequitur: you said the two agents looking back at the TSBD wouldn't have had time to turn around. They had already heard shots. Look at the image of JFK's fists at his throat. The first shot missed and the twofer had already passed through the victims.
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I like the hree choice option of said, implied, or meanr
John M said Well duh, people ran to where Kennedy was shot.
That could be implied that he was shot in the Limo
Inside the limo was the POTUS. Inside the POTUS were bullet wounds. The limo, the POTUS and his bullet wounds were already speeding away from the scene. Tell us how you can claim that the limo was the place that JohnM meant when saying 'where Kennedy was shot'
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No
Not a non-sequitur: you said the two agents looking back at the TSBD wouldn't have had time to turn around. They had already heard shots. Look at the image of JFK's fists at his throat. The first shot missed and the twofer had already passed through the victims.
It might help if you posted what I said which is-
As to looking back in Altgens six, the frontal shot has not either happened yet or they have not had time to react to it/them
The frontal shot is generally the one referred to at 313 by us folks
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Whats really going to throw a wrench into it all, is Mrs. Robert A. Reid's WC testimony describing exactly the point at which she decided to return into TSBD:
Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did you---did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?
Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?
Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?
Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.
Now if someone can point out Mrs Reid in this Couch film, that would be most helpful, because i personally do not see a woman about 50+ years old, with glasses and white scarf, that was the woman seen standing beside Mr.Campbell in the Weigmann film clip, a film sequence preceding the Couch film sequence approx 25 sec before Couch flim captures Baker running.
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It might help if you posted what I said which is-
As to looking back in Altgens six, the frontal shot has not either happened yet or they have not had time to react to it/them
The frontal shot is generally the one referred to at 313 by us folks
JohnM is referring to the SS agents looking back at the TSBD entrance. He posted the Altgens image with JFK in colour. Do you not see JFK's fists at his throat?
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JohnM is referring to the SS agents looking back at the TSBD entrance. He posted the Altgens image with JFK in colour. Do you not see JFK's fists at his throat?
Yes I see his hands He, and the the SS agents have reacted to a shot Wherever did you get the impression I was saying they were not?
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Only the agent in front needs to have reacted, the one behind could have just reacted to him.
Weigman reacted to the parade slowing down as he often did, by jumping out to grab exclusives.
Hargis reacted to Weigman, heads right for him.
Haygood probably reacted to Curry and what he saw on Elm.
Look into why Jackson didn't run toward the building and pick one of the many answers he gave over the years.
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Only the agent in front needs to have reacted, the one behind could have just reacted to him.
Weigman reacted to the parade slowing down as he often did, by jumping out to grab exclusives.
Hargis reacted to Weigman, heads right for him.
Haygood probably reacted to Curry and what he saw on Elm.
Look into why Jackson didn't run toward the building and pick one of the many answers he gave over the years.
Your description of the reaction & route that Officer Hargis took is pure speculation and flies in the face of his WC Testimony. As to Baker, he admits it was pigeons that sent him into the TSBD with the intention of gaining access to the roof of the building.
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98% of what I offer has no bearing on the testimony unless it's to argue against it as proof of anything but saying it's all speculation is far from true.
Not one single thing in the photographic record disputes where I say Hargis ran to and how quick he turned back, that's all I care about.
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98% of what I offer has no bearing on the testimony unless it's to argue against it as proof of anything but saying it's all speculation is far from true.
Not one single thing in the photographic record disputes where I say Hargis ran to and how quick he turned back, that's all I care about.
Why not be upfront and simply state this is what you Think/Believe happened? Proffering your Opinion as Fact does nothing but damage your credibility going forward.
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Okay yes IMHO, I do forget sometimes but do you see how the thread started?
Pick out that which you think is wrong, tell me why and perhaps you'll encourage me to rethink it, the old fashioned way but if you gave me any credit at all, you'd know I don't make things up based on nothing and you'd also know what I think of testimony. I've been over each one of those issues I mentioned above already in the past with you personally.
Every little nugget you can find in the spotty photographic evidence tells me Hargis ran to Wiegman, even what I last found in Paschall, the woman who ran and dove to the grass by the Newmans got up again and moved out of Hargis' way and IMHO Wiegman himself dove to the ground to show he was no threat to the appraching officer with his pistol out.
That's why he's sprawled over those steps so akwardly, there was no need for him to be getting a steady shots of the Hesters, that's not his style, he was the smash and grab type an get back to the car, he went down to protect himself, only reason this is controversial is if you never heard it before but it makes so much sense to me.
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The SS looking back are indeed reacting to a shot (but it is NOT where JFK brings his hands to his throat)... described as a firecracker sound-the white car behind LBJ having barely made the turn already has the driver's side back door opening reacting to disturbance. SS Youngblood does not jump on LBJ as LBJ said according to Yarborough...instead LBJ has ducked in the floorboard of the car and is listening on a radio/walkie talkie. He is probably listening on the same radio/walkie talkie that "bored" terrorist Orlando Bosch clearly has on him as he sits on the curb with the umbrella man. He is not the only man seen in Dealey Plaza with a walkie tie...as almost directly across the street is another...Jim...last name escapes me at the moment, clearly seen in his back pocket. There were 53 witnesses that said they felt the shots came from the Grassy Knoll area. There is smoke coming out from the trees in that area verifying Yarborough's account of smelling gunpowder "at street level". There were other people that felt that the shots came from the TSBD...one doesn't exclude the other. The only thing the LNs can't show is the actual shots coming from the TSBD....there is however video evidence of shots coming from other locations. There are bullet holes in the windshield (front to back), chrome of the car, a piece of the curb removed, a pistol bullet recovered by Buddy Walthers, 2 bullet holes in the man hole cover and even witnesses who said they saw bullets strike pavement behind limo. 4 JFK wounds and 3 Connally wounds. Are we talking pinball ? Mercy.
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The SS looking back are indeed reacting to a shot (but it is NOT where JFK brings his hands to his throat)... described as a firecracker sound-the white car behind LBJ having barely made the turn already has the driver's side back door opening reacting to disturbance. SS Youngblood does not jump on LBJ as LBJ said according to Yarborough...instead LBJ has ducked in the floorboard of the car and is listening on a radio/walkie talkie. He is probably listening on the same radio/walkie talkie that "bored" terrorist Orlando Bosch clearly has on him as he sits on the curb with the umbrella man. He is not the only man seen in Dealey Plaza with a walkie tie...as almost directly across the street is another...Jim...last name escapes me at the moment, clearly seen in his back pocket. There were 53 witnesses that said they felt the shots came from the Grassy Knoll area. There is smoke coming out from the trees in that area verifying Yarborough's account of smelling gunpowder "at street level". There were other people that felt that the shots came from the TSBD...one doesn't exclude the other. The only thing the LNs can't show is the actual shots coming from the TSBD....there is however video evidence of shots coming from other locations. There are bullet holes in the windshield (front to back), chrome of the car, a piece of the curb removed, a pistol bullet recovered by Buddy Walthers, 2 bullet holes in the man hole cover and even witnesses who said they saw bullets strike pavement behind limo. 4 JFK wounds and 3 Connally wounds. Are we talking pinball ? Mercy.
Hi Jim Welcome or welcome back which ever the case may be I started a LBJ ducking thread while back and perhaps you might be interested or perhaps you have already seen it We also have one on the hole in the windshield if you are interested in that
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Okay yes IMHO, I do forget sometimes but do you see how the thread started?
Pick out that which you think is wrong, tell me why and perhaps you'll encourage me to rethink it, the old fashioned way but if you gave me any credit at all, you'd know I don't make things up based on nothing and you'd also know what I think of testimony. I've been over each one of those issues I mentioned above already in the past with you personally.
Every little nugget you can find in the spotty photographic evidence tells me Hargis ran to Wiegman, even what I last found in Paschall, the woman who ran and dove to the grass by the Newmans got up again and moved out of Hargis' way and IMHO Wiegman himself dove to the ground to show he was no threat to the appraching officer with his pistol out.
That's why he's sprawled over those steps so akwardly, there was no need for him to be getting a steady shots of the Hesters, that's not his style, he was the smash and grab type an get back to the car, he went down to protect himself, only reason this is controversial is if you never heard it before but it makes so much sense to me.
The issue I have regarding your claiming that Hargis followed Wiegman UP the knoll is the time frame. Wiegman jumped out of the Camera Car ran around the corner, and then ran Down Elm St. He then leaves Elm St heading (N) UP the Knoll while panning his camera across the knoll. The early frames of Wiegman's jittery film show the LBJ SS Follow Up Car on the South side of Elm St and what looks to be Hargis's motorcycle on the left of that SS Follow Up Car. Where is Hargis? We see Hargis bringing his motorcycle to a Stop on the Zapruder film. Do you believe Hargis racked his motorcycle and then simply stood there while somehow avoiding being filmed by Wiegman? And if Hargis is trailing Wiegman on the knoll, how is it that Hargis and his White Helmet are Nowhere on the Wiegman Film? The time stamping of the Wiegman Film is Wrong. This is due to the Fact that for 35-40 years it was simply accepted that the Wiegman Film was filmed "Continuously". This has been proven to be Wrong. Unfortunately, segments of other assassination films and the characters within those segments have used the erroneous "continuous" filming of the Wiegman Film to help assign their time stamping. For example, if Wiegman was going UP the knoll Less than 30 seconds after the assassination and is panning his camera across the knoll, and then filming the Alleged Hester's still laying on the ground, where is Zapruder? Where is Sitzman? They are Not on the Wiegman Film. Just how quickly can the middle aged and dizzy Zapruder and Sitzman dismount their Perch and somehow disappear/miss being filmed by Wiegman?
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Hi Jim Welcome or welcome back which ever the case may be I started a LBJ ducking thread while back and perhaps you might be interested or perhaps you have already seen it We also have one on the hole in the windshield if you are interested in that
Thanks Matt ! I am a Newbie and posted a couple of times some months back and just started posting again recently. I have been researching JFK since High school. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes or anything. I have looked at Robin Unger photos for some time now...REALLY GOOD ! I, like many others ,have spent countless hours researching JFK (and RFK and MLK as well). I didn't start out with any preconceived notions but wanted to see where the evidence would take me.I don't think I can pinpoint one person/theory that I agree with 100% but there are some people who have some outstanding resources.There are many different stories from many different people....the one common thread to me is it was a conspiracy. If you can count past 3, there are way too many bullets that are unaccounted for...lone nut shooter was the prevailing M.O. in the 60's.
Can you kind of guide a newbie to the LBJ ducking thread and the windshield holes (I've seen both left and right holes). Thanks for the welcome...I look forward to sharing ideas w/o any name calling or being disrespectful. I KNOW the WC theory is trash but I also realize that there are some people who can't be convinced...I'm OK with that.
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Jim You sound very reasonable and look forward to your participation I meant to at least leave you the link for the LBJ duck, but forgot as usual
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,663.0.html
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,723.0.html
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Thanks Matt ! I am a Newbie and posted a couple of times some months back and just started posting again recently. I have been researching JFK since High school. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes or anything. I have looked at Robin Unger photos for some time now...REALLY GOOD ! I, like many others ,have spent countless hours researching JFK (and RFK and MLK as well). I didn't start out with any preconceived notions but wanted to see where the evidence would take me.I don't think I can pinpoint one person/theory that I agree with 100% but there are some people who have some outstanding resources.There are many different stories from many different people....the one common thread to me is it was a conspiracy. If you can count past 3, there are way too many bullets that are unaccounted for...lone nut shooter was the prevailing M.O. in the 60's.
Can you kind of guide a newbie to the LBJ ducking thread and the windshield holes (I've seen both left and right holes). Thanks for the welcome...I look forward to sharing ideas w/o any name calling or being disrespectful. I KNOW the WC theory is trash but I also realize that there are some people who can't be convinced...I'm OK with that.
I'm 100% certain that Dirty Harvey probably* did it
* The genpop accepts Oswald as shooter
The HSCA said 'likely'
The WC said 'probably'
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I'm 100% certain that Dirty Harvey probably* did it
* The genpop accepts Oswald as shooter
The HSCA said 'likely'
The WC said 'probably'
Not so....70 % of genpop DON'T believe LHO lone gun, HSCA said 90 something percent there were 2 shooters WC said definitely and ALONE....generally, "if you didn't see Oswald shoot, you didn't see anything ". Even poor ole Kenny O'Donnell and Dave Powers said they thought shots came from the Grassy Knoll. There 's an awful lot of bullets for ole Dirty Harvey to account for....we're not talking about a pinball machine here but real guns with real bullets.