JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 06:48:12 AM
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An hour after the shooting of President Kennedy I encountered Jack Ruby at Parkland Hospital. Ruby was someone I had known at the start of the Kennedy administration, when I had been a reporter on a Dallas newspaper. He sought me out at Parkland, called me by name and, later from jail, wrote me a warm, personal note. But he later denied that he had been inside Parkland Hospital at that critical time. As a result, the Warren Commission questioned both Ruby and me in June, 1964, about the Parkland encounter. In the end, page 336 of the Warren Report declared that "Kantor probably did not see Ruby in Parkland Hospital.
from~~~ "Who Was Jack Ruby'' by Seth Kantor
The surprising thing is not that Seth Kantor testified that he saw Ruby at Parkland and the Warren Commission chose not to believe him.
It is that Ruby denied being at the hospital completely and the Commission chose to believe him ...a known felon!
There must have been some reason that Jack Ruby did not want to be identified as being at the medical center.
If there were some policemen who saw Ruby there, they were not officially produced.
At the Dallas Trade Mart... Penn Jones rushed to Parkland Hospital where he asked questions and took several photographs. One of his pictures, according to researcher John Judge, may have captured Jack Ruby going into the hospital. As was stated ---The Warren Commission later denied Ruby was ever there there at this time.
Burt W. Griffin:When did you first meet Mr. Ruby?
[Seth Kantor had testified that he knew Jack Ruby for about 3 years]
Seth Kantor: Well, it was within a very few months after I joined the Times Herald. I was a feature writer for the paper. I think by nature of the stories that I wrote, I sort of attracted Jack Ruby. He came up to my desk one day and introduced himself and said that he owned a club or clubs in town, and that he thought he might have some stories for me from time to time, and he did. Over the next several months, he provided me with maybe as many as half-a-dozen feature stories, on characters in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.....go ahead...Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything in particular about the doorway that you were in--that you were near at the time you thought you saw Ruby that sticks out in your mind?
Mr Kantor. Now, as I had told the FBI, it was either at this point or it was at a point originally when I went up behind Malcolm Kilduff that I spoke with Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you to place on the map approximately where you were the first time that you think you might have seen Jack Ruby--if you would place a No. "3" on the map where you were the first time when you think you might have seen Ruby.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. It was inside the building, but just barely inside. It was just immediately inside the doorway. I am not sure, as I said, whether there was a small door next to the main entrance itself, or whether this occurred just inside the main entrance. But it seems to me it was--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight, then. The first time you saw Ruby, before you went up to Mr. Kilduff's press conference--
Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; what I am saying is I only saw him once and talked to him that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything in particular about the doorway that you were in--that you were near at the time you thought you saw Ruby that sticks out in your mind?
So we can see by the line of questioning that Council Burt Griffin was strongly implying that Seth Kator must be mistaken about seeing Ruby.
I wonder why they even called him to testify at all.
Still there is the nagging mystery of why was Jack Ruby at Parkland...What he doing going inside the same area that police were keeping others from entering? Why didn't he just say that he was concerned about the condition of the president? [yeah right]
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At the Dallas Trade Mart... Penn Jones rushed to Parkland Hospital where he asked questions and took several photographs. One of his pictures, according to researcher John Judge, may have captured Jack Ruby going into the hospital.
This could be Jack Ruby [I didn't know he was so short] Same build.. suit.. and fedora hat------------
https://app.box.com/s/8b408e6999f8799dfd0a/file/17669463452
[ FMG Vol3 page 140..a pdf file]
The Seth Kantor affair is a blatant demonstration that the Warren Commission and their staff willingly ignored the truth and the actual facts of the assassination so they could produce Oswald as a lone nut and that [as they put it] No evidence of a conspiracy could be found.
My speculation [pure conjecture] is that Ruby was there at Parkland Hospital to plant that bullet known as CE 399.
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This could be Jack Ruby [I didn't know he was so short] Same build.. suit.. and fedora hat------------
https://app.box.com/s/8b408e6999f8799dfd0a/file/17669463452
[ FMG Vol3 page 140..a pdf file]
The Seth Kantor affair is a blatant demonstration that the Warren Commission and their staff willingly ignored the truth and the actual facts of the assassination so they could produce Oswald as a lone nut and that [as they put it] No evidence of a conspiracy could be found.
My speculation [pure conjecture] is that Ruby was there at Parkland Hospital to plant that bullet known as CE 399.
I had always imagined Ruby a little shorter, but in the last few years I thought I read he was around 6 foot, but just read an article stating in his autopsy he was 5 foot 8 inches,around 145 or 150 pounds. Oddly enough the ads showing up on this page for me right now are for fedora hats.
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I had always imagined Ruby a little shorter, but in the last few years I thought I read he was around 6 foot, but just read an article stating in his autopsy he was 5 foot 8 inches,around 145 or 150 pounds. Oddly enough the ads showing up on this page for me right now are for fedora hats.
Could you link that article? Jack Ruby definitely was not 6 ft tall...5'8" probably but very husky. No doubt he lost weight in jail and with illness.
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This could be Jack Ruby [I didn't know he was so short] Same build.. suit.. and fedora hat------------
https://app.box.com/s/8b408e6999f8799dfd0a/file/17669463452
[ FMG Vol3 page 140..a pdf file]
The Seth Kantor affair is a blatant demonstration that the Warren Commission and their staff willingly ignored the truth and the actual facts of the assassination so they could produce Oswald as a lone nut and that [as they put it] No evidence of a conspiracy could be found.
My speculation [pure conjecture] is that Ruby was there at Parkland Hospital to plant that bullet known as CE 399.
My speculation [pure conjecture] is that Ruby was there at Parkland Hospital to plant that bullet known as CE 399.
Not an unfounded idea..... Seth Cantor was discredited by the WC....One of the reasons they wanted to cast doubt on his credibility was of course the fact that he insisted that he encountered Ruby at Parkland.... but another seldom heard reason is the fact that Cantor said that there was a bullet hole in a sixth floor window of the TSBD.
PS.... If Ruby had taken the "magic Bullet" to Parkland it's highly unlikely that he would have called Cantor's attention to his presence there at Parkland. I'd speculate that Ruby would have given the bullet to someone who had unquestioned right to be there in that area. ( Like Darrell Tomlinson , or OP Wright.)
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Could you link that article? Jack Ruby definitely was not 6 ft tall...5'8" probably but very husky. No doubt he lost weight in jail and with illness.
The writer of the article Blaine Greteman gives this info after he visited with his students Dallas Medical Examiner Earl Rose's collection that was donated to University of Iowa library.
https://newrepublic.com/article/115723/jack-rubys-autopsy-report-university-iowas-library (https://newrepublic.com/article/115723/jack-rubys-autopsy-report-university-iowas-library)
This link has Rubys fingerprints after murder arrest and listing him as 5 ft 8 1/2,179 lbs.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jack-Rubys-Fingerprint-Card-Autographed-JFK-John-F-Kennedy-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-/303128449945 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jack-Rubys-Fingerprint-Card-Autographed-JFK-John-F-Kennedy-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-/303128449945)
This link has Rubys different arrest records one for permitting dancing after hours, you think his friends would have overlooked that for him. The site says it will be unavailable 13 Fri Dec until 16 Mon Dec
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337376/ (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337376/)
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This link has Rubys fingerprints after murder arrest and listing him as 5 ft 8 1/2,179 lbs.
They didn't get his name right and also mis-spelled it----
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8K0AAOxy4YdTSe6Q/s-l1600.jpg)
Born-- Jacob Leon Rubenstein
Also...according to wikipedia--Jack Ruby was born on April 25, 1911 not March :-\
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby
According to the Warren Commission, Ruby was in the second-floor advertising offices of the Dallas Morning News, five blocks away from the Texas School Book Depository, placing weekly advertisements for his nightclubs when he learned of the assassination around 12:45 p.m.[17]:334–335 Ruby then made phone calls to his assistant at the Carousel Club and to his sister.[17]:334 The Commission stated that an employee of the Dallas Morning News estimated that Ruby left the newspaper's offices at 1:30 p.m., but indicated that other testimony suggested he may have left earlier.[17]:334–335
Not a word there about Seth Kantor ::)
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No response from the Warren defenders on this one...typical--there is no defense.
The Warren Commission who vowed to "leave no stone unturned" decided to not turn this one over.
It reeks of coverup.
Ruby at Parkland Hospital had a sinister implication --- Ruby denying he was there and the Commission accepting his
lie word over Seth Kantor's proves that any scent of conspiracy was to be avoided no matter what.
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I'm going to believe that Seth Kantor saw Ruby at Parkland because I feel that Kantor had nothing to gain or lose by saying he saw Ruby at Parkland . It's like the wounds on JFK's head ! Parkland saw it one way and Bethesda saw it another way . Parkland didn't have anything to gain or lose by telling what they saw . You are going to believe whatever you believe and that's all there is to it . Half our country is Republican and the other half is Democratic but you still think that the truth will rise to the top ! Don't count on it !
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Half our country is Republican and the other half is Democratic ...
That is not quite accurate---
As of September 2019, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrat, 29% identified as Republican, and 38% as Independent.
Democrats were still the largest political party with more than 42 million voters (compared with 30 million Republicans and 24 million independents).
I personally... am a Libertarian.
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Seth Kanter was not the only witness who saw Jack Ruby at Parkland immediately after the assassination. Wilma Tice also testified to the Commission that she encountered Ruby at the hospital and the Commission took a similar tact with her as they did with Kanter. The treatment of this episode is proof positive that the Warren Commission was not interested in getting down to the real truth but rather squashing any testimony that could lead to a conspiracy of any size and shape.
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Seth Kanter was not the only witness who saw Jack Ruby at Parkland immediately after the assassination. Wilma Tice also testified to the Commission that she encountered Ruby at the hospital and the Commission took a similar tact with her as they did with Kanter. The treatment of this episode is proof positive that the Warren Commission was not interested in getting down to the real truth but rather squashing any testimony that could lead to a conspiracy of any size and shape.
Thumb1: Why can't everyone else see this?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=51&search=wilma_tice#relPageId=401&tab=page
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It had been several years since I had read the Wilma Tice testimony and I had forgotten how overly diligent the future Judge Griffin was in trying to "gently" dissuade Tice from testifying - certainly not the tact that one would take if they were going to leave "no stone unturned" in order to find out the truth. If the testimony of Kanter and Tice were heard by a jury I don't see how any reasonable person could not be convinced that Jack Ruby was at Parkland hospital within minutes of the president begin brought to the emergency room - while by itself it may not mean anything significant, you can tell that the Commission wanted no part of either party's testimony - except that they perfectly corroborated each other.
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The problem with the assumption that Jack Ruby planted CE399 on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital is that the actual bullet retrieved by hospital engineer Darrell Tomlinson was of a different colour and shape. According to Mr. Tomlinson, the bullet that he found on the stretcher was grey and and had a pointed tip. His superior, former police officer O.P. Wright confirmed that.
CE399 is copper-coloured and has a rounded tip.
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Ruby was in the Dallas Morning News offices until well after 1pm (witnesses there) and then in the Carousel Club to close it for the day (witnesses there).
When was he supposed to have been at Parkland? Or are the Dallas Morning News and Carousel employees to be added to the list of conspirators?
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Ruby was in the Dallas Morning News offices until well after 1pm (witnesses there) and then in the Carousel Club to close it for the day (witnesses there). When was he supposed to have been at Parkland? Or are the Dallas Morning News and Carousel employees to be added to the list of conspirators?
Name these witnesses. Cite their testimony to that fact. Otherwise--- it is fake reporting.
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Name these witnesses. Cite their testimony to that fact. Otherwise--- it is fake reporting.
- Jerry -
Everything related to Jack Ruby's movements on November 22, 1963 can be found in this remarkable article:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Third-Fourth%20Decade%206-17%20--%2020-93%20Conference/Item%2002.pdf
Enjoy!
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- Jerry -
Everything related to Jack Ruby's movements on November 22, 1963 can be found in this remarkable article:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Third-Fourth%20Decade%206-17%20--%2020-93%20Conference/Item%2002.pdf
Enjoy!
Ruby was in the Dallas Morning News offices until well after 1pm (witnesses there) and then in the Carousel Club to close it for the day (witnesses there).
When was he supposed to have been at Parkland? Or are the Dallas Morning News and Carousel employees to be added to the list of conspirators?
"Remarkable"....the conclusions of the writers----IF Ruby was at the Book Depository at the time of the shooting, and we believe he was, he could have easily returned to the News before our list of witnesses that .......
So Jack Ruby...knowing the exact time that the shooting would occur...ran down to the plaza to see it...then hurried back to be seen at the ad desk :D
There is not one bit of credible evidence to support the Warren Commission claim that Jack Ruby was in the Dallas Morning News at 12:30 p.m., November 22, 1963, at the moment President Kennedy was executed in Dealey Plaza. Unquestionably Ruby was in the News offices before and after the shooting event, but a close examination of the testimony of the witnesses, used by the Commission to support their conclusion, does not provide the proof of his presence at 12:30 pm
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Jack Ruby?
Mr. HUBERT. When Jack Ruby left that day, when he left the offices?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No, to ascertain a time, I would not try and hazard a guess, because his appearance there at the paper was a very commonplace thing, and to pay any particular attention as to when he comes and goes, we didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any independent recollection of having seen him after the first time you saw him when you first came in?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I'd say I saw him in and about the office for approximately 30 minutes afterward.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't particularly notice his departure because there was
no particular reason why you should?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do think he was there for 30 minutes after you first
arrived--and after you first saw him?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
The writers of the article provide nothing to contradict Seth Kantor's/Wilma Tice's testimony...That they saw Ruby at Parkland soon after the announcement of the president's death.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Tice, did you know that Jack himself has denied very vehemently he was out at the hospital?
Mrs. TICE. Yes; I know he denied that, and I hated to say that I saw him out there, and I told Eva. And Eva told me, "Well, I asked Jack and Jack said no, he wasn't out there." And I said, "Well, anybody can make a mistake. Anybody could have made a mistake." She said, "Yes, because there are many Jacks. A man called Jack,"--and if it wasn't him it was his twin brother.
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- Jerry -
I agree. As far as I can tell or are able to ascertain, Ruby was at the newspaper offices until 1.00 - 1.10 p.m. He had more than enough time to travel to Parkland Hospital to be seen by Seth Kantor at 1.30 p.m. or there about. He was however back in the Carousel Club no later than (or even a few minutes earlier than) 1.45 p.m. This is problematic, according to the Warren Report:
If Ruby immediately returned to the Carousel Club after Kantor saw him, it would have been necessary for him to have covered the distance from Parkland in approximately 10 or 15 minutes in order to have arrived at the club before 1:45 p.m., when a telephone call was placed at Ruby's request to his entertainer, Karen Bennett Carlin. At a normal driving speed under normal conditions the trip can be made in 9 or 10 minutes. However, it is likely that congested traffic conditions on November 22 would have extended the driving time. Even if Ruby had been able to drive from Parkland to the Carousel in 15 minutes, his presence at the Dallas Morning News until after 1 p.m., and at the Carousel prior to 1:45 p.m., would have made his visit at Parkland exceedingly brief.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-6.html#activities
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Name these witnesses. Cite their testimony to that fact. Otherwise--- it is fake reporting.
This is freely available information and a well worn path too. He wasn't in Parkland.
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This is freely available information and a well worn path too. He wasn't in Parkland.
Because Jack Ruby said he wasn't and Seth Kantor and Wilma Tice were liars :-\
If there is so much of this readily available information spoken of ...then link it so that we all may easily review it.