JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Matt Grantham on May 11, 2018, 02:13:27 PM
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I imagine most know the story, but after listening to Douglass Horne's 6 hour YouTube presentation I am more curious and informed
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Body_Alteration.html
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There at least three people who coroborate the 6.35 arrival of a black hearse with a grey casket
Dennis David Paul O'Connor, and USMC Sergeant Boyajian
?The short answer is, ?by helicopter.? Specifically, by a helicopter that landed at the Bethesda Naval Hospital complex?s Officer?s Club parking lot. JFK?s body was transferred from that helicopter to a Hearse (a black Cadillac mortuary ambulance), placed inside a shipping casket, and delivered to the morgue loading dock less than five minutes later, at 6:35 PM, when USMC Sergeant Boyajian dutifully recorded the time of arrival of the casket in his notes.
ajmacdonaldjr says:
November 18, 2013 at 6:42 pm
I was at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the evening of November 22, 1963. After the helicopter landed, there was no casket taken off the helicopter. I saw a body on a gurney with a sheet over it transferred from the helicopter to the waiting ambulance, which then took the body to the hospital. I never saw a casket, I saw a body with a sheet over it. There are witnesses to the helicopter landing that night, including me.
https://ajmacdonaldjr.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/the-arrival-of-jfks-body-at-bethesda-naval-hospital-what-i-saw/
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There at least three people who coroborate the 6.35 arrival of a black hearse with a grey casket
Dennis David Paul O'Connor, and USMC Sergeant Boyajian
?The short answer is, ?by helicopter.? Specifically, by a helicopter that landed at the Bethesda Naval Hospital complex?s Officer?s Club parking lot. JFK?s body was transferred from that helicopter to a Hearse (a black Cadillac mortuary ambulance), placed inside a shipping casket, and delivered to the morgue loading dock less than five minutes later, at 6:35 PM, when USMC Sergeant Boyajian dutifully recorded the time of arrival of the casket in his notes.
ajmacdonaldjr says:
November 18, 2013 at 6:42 pm
I was at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the evening of November 22, 1963. After the helicopter landed, there was no casket taken off the helicopter. I saw a body on a gurney with a sheet over it transferred from the helicopter to the waiting ambulance, which then took the body to the hospital. I never saw a casket, I saw a body with a sheet over it. There are witnesses to the helicopter landing that night, including me.
https://ajmacdonaldjr.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/the-arrival-of-jfks-body-at-bethesda-naval-hospital-what-i-saw/
Boyajian never gave a description of a black hearse with a gray casket. He never gave any description of a casket. That's because he never saw the casket. He wasn't even present when it arrived at Bethesda.
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Boyajian never gave a description of a black hearse with a gray casket. He never gave any description of a casket. That's because he never saw the casket. He wasn't even present when it arrived at Bethesda.
O.K He records the arrival of JFK's body at 6.35 at Bethesda?
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O.K He records the arrival of JFK's body at 6.35 at Bethesda?
Do Dennis David and Paul O'Connor record the arrival of JFK's body at 6.35 at Bethesda?
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Do Dennis David and Paul O'Connor record the arrival of JFK's body at 6.35 at Bethesda?
They were not tasked to do so
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They were not tasked to do so
That doesn't answer my question. Do Dennis David and Paul O'Connor record the arrival of JFK's body at 6.35 at Bethesda? Yes or no.
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That doesn't answer my question. Do Dennis David and Paul O'Connor record the arrival of JFK's body at 6.35 at Bethesda? Yes or no.
What would they have recorded them on? They made no official report because it was not their job to do so. Add David's partner, Donald Rebentisch, to the list of those stating JFK's casket arrived at 6.35 According to David, Boswell stated that he had received JFK's corpse in the casket that arrived at 6.35
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What would they have recorded them on?
Ok, the answer is No, right?
Why do you have them as corroborating the 6.35 arrival of a black hearse with a grey casket?
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Ok, the answer is No, right?
Why do you have them as corroborating the 6.35 arrival of a black hearse with a grey casket?
Their statements
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Their statements
Let's see their statements then.
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Let's see their statements then.
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md177.pdf
According to Horne, ?After Best Evidence was published, a Michigan newspaper and a Canadian news team located and interviewed Donald Rebentisch, one of the sailors in Dennis David?s working party, who had been telling the same story independently for years.? (Horne, volume 3, page 675.)
Here is O'Connor
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/paul-oconnor.html
And here is Richard Lipsey claiming he was on the helicopter from Andrews to the parking lot of Bethesda, and helped unloading the body
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm
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Lets add 4 more names to those who corroborate the story of the 6.35 casket arrival in one way or another
Floyd Riebe
James Jenkins
John VanHuesen,
Jerrol Custer
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http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md177.pdf
According to Horne, ?After Best Evidence was published, a Michigan newspaper and a Canadian news team located and interviewed Donald Rebentisch, one of the sailors in Dennis David?s working party, who had been telling the same story independently for years.? (Horne, volume 3, page 675.)
Here is O'Connor
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/paul-oconnor.html
Dennis David said that the black Hearse arrived at about 6:45pm. O'Connor didn't give a time of arrival.
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Lets add 4 more names to those who corroborate the story of the 6.35 casket arrival in one way or another
Floyd Riebe
James Jenkins
John VanHuesen,
Jerrol Custer
How do those four corroborate the story of the 6:35 casket arrival?
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Lets add 4 more names to those who corroborate the story of the 6.35 casket arrival in one way or another
Floyd Riebe
James Jenkins
John VanHuesen,
Jerrol Custer
Custer described the casket that Kennedy's body was brought in as a bronze ceremonial casket. VanHoesen recalled the broken lugs on one of the handles. Jenkins said that the casket was brown in color. How do any of those corroborate a 6:35 arrival of a grey shipping casket?
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Dennis David said that the black Hearse arrived at about 6:45pm. O'Connor didn't give a time of arrival.
Indeed David originally estimated the time as 6.45 but also stated
Dennis David?s account of the arrival of the black hearse, with the shipping casket, prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance at the front ("a good 20 minutes before," said David
Thus when the log entry of 6.35 became known years later this matched perfectly between the 20 minutes between the shipping casket at 6.35 and the ambulance from Andrews at 6.55
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Indeed David originally estimated the time as 6.45 but also stated
Dennis David?s account of the arrival of the black hearse, with the shipping casket, prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance at the front ("a good 20 minutes before," said David
Thus when the log entry of 6.35 became known years later this matched perfectly between the 20 minutes between the shipping casket at 6.35 and the ambulance from Andrews at 6.55
The ambulance from Andrews arrived at 7:15, not 6:55.
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Custer described the casket that Kennedy's body was brought in as a bronze ceremonial casket. VanHoesen recalled the broken lugs on one of the handles. Jenkins said that the casket was brown in color. How do any of those corroborate a 6:35 arrival of a grey shipping casket?
On O'Connor .His statements match perfectly he just does not give an exact time
Right after we heard the helicopters come over, I distinctly heard one land in the back of the hospital, which was the Officer?s Club parking lot. There was a big parking lot. I heard one helicopter land there. I heard another helicopter land at the north side of the hospital where there was a normal helicopter-landing pad. Several minutes later, I can?t give you a definite time ? maybe five minutes ? the back of the morgue opened up and a crew of hospital corpsmen and a higher ranking corpsman brought in a plain, pinkish-gray, what I call a shipping casket. It was not ornate. It was not damaged?. They brought it up front where we were. At that time we opened up the coffin. Inside was the body bag.
I will get back on the others Some of the confirmation is in regard to the body bag that several describe Do you disagree that a body bag is a problem?
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The ambulance from Andrews arrived at 7:15, not 6:55.
No the ambulance, and the Presidential entourage arrived at 6.55 and Greer for some reason remained parked out front for 15 minutes or so At 7.17 they took the bronze casket to the ante room of the morgue
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And to go a step further
So why does Horne conclude that H&B illicitly removed (and altered) the brain shortly after 6:35 PM, before any X-rays were taken, and before the official autopsy began? He here introduces two intriguing witnesses ? the two R's, namely Reed and Robinson. Edward Reed was assistant to Jerrol Custer (the radiology tech), while Tom Robinson was a mortician. Rather consistently with one another, but quite independently, both describe critical steps taken by H&B that no one else reports. (Horne documents why no one else reported these events ? almost everyone else had been evicted from the morgue before this clandestine interlude.) After the body was placed on the morgue table (and before X-rays were taken), Reed briefly sat in the gallery.18 Reed states19 that Humes first used a scalpel across the top of the forehead to pull the scalp back. Then he used a saw to cut the forehead bone, after which he (and Custer, too) were asked to leave the morgue.
Also according to Horne no one describes the metal head brace that we see in the official autopsy photos This leads to the rather easy conclusion that those photos were taken at a different time Also explains why Stringer did not take them
Regarding Robinson, Horne concludes that he arrived with the hearse that brought the body (i.e., the first entry). After that, Robinson simply observed events from the morgue gallery; contrary to Reed's experience, he was not asked to leave. Just before 7 PM, Robinson22 saw H&B remove large portions of the rear and top of the skull with a saw, in order to access the brain. (Robinson was not aware that this activity was off the record.) He also observed ten or more bullet fragments extracted from the brain. Although these do not appear in the official record, Dennis David recalls23 preparing a receipt for at least four fragments.24
Horne adds an independent argument for multiple casket entries.27 Pierre Finck told the Journal of the American Medical Association28 that he was at home when Humes telephoned him at 7:30 PM. (In his 2/1/65 report to General Blumberg he cites 8 PM.29) Finck, as a forensic pathologist, had been asked to assist with the autopsy. As further confirmation for Finck's overall timeline, he arrived (see his Blumberg report) at the morgue at 8:30 PM. But here is the clincher: during this phone call, Humes told Finck that X-rays had already been taken ? and had already been viewed. On the other hand, the official entry time (with the Joint Service Casket Team) was at 8 PM! If that indeed was the one and only entry time, how then could X-rays have been taken ? let alone developed and viewed (a process of 30 minutes minimum) ? even before the official entry time?
Evidence that there was to be a helicopter to take JFK's body from Andrews to Bethesda
The AF1 tapes reveal unambiguously that Gerald Behn in the White House situation room wanted to separate Mrs. Kennedy (hereafter referred to by her initials, JBK) and all other VIP passengers who were not Secret Service agents from the Dallas casket. Although JFK?s Military Aide, General Ted Clifton (code name ?Watchman?), initially insisted on an autopsy at Walter Reed Hospital and the use of a mortuary-type ambulance for transportation, he eventually fell into line with ?Crown?s? demands and then actively supported Behn?s orders. Here are some telling quotes from the Clifton tapes:
Digest: Walter Reed ambulance for body that will go to Walter Reed, over?
Duplex: Say again, say again.
Digest (Kellerman): ?[we need] an ambulance from Walter Reed to transport body, over?
Duplex (Behn): Arrangements have been made for a helicopter for the Bethesda Naval Medical Center, over.
Digest: Standby, jerry?ah, I?ll have to get Burkley here.
A short time later Behn clarified his intentions:
Duplex: The, everybody aboard Air Force One, everybody aboard Air Force One, with the exception of the body, will be choppered into the South Grounds [of the White House]. The body will be choppered to the Navy Medical Center at Bethesda, over.
Burkley: The body will be choppered or will go by ambulance to the Navy Medical Center?
Duplex: Will be choppered, will be choppered.
For me personally this information really clears up the picture at Bethesda So many contradictions and mystery's before it was overwhelming It amazing when anything about this event becomes clearer
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Matt , this is some very good info on the 2 caskets . I think that Dennis David, being such a good eye witness in the movements that were made with the body of JFK ,brings this 2 casket scenario into what took place at Bethesda that night. Dennis David never believed that LCMDR Pitzer took his own life . Matt, your information and web sites have been very good . Good work , Matt !
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On O'Connor .His statements match perfectly he just does not give an exact time
Right after we heard the helicopters come over, I distinctly heard one land in the back of the hospital, which was the Officer?s Club parking lot. There was a big parking lot. I heard one helicopter land there. I heard another helicopter land at the north side of the hospital where there was a normal helicopter-landing pad. Several minutes later, I can?t give you a definite time ? maybe five minutes ? the back of the morgue opened up and a crew of hospital corpsmen and a higher ranking corpsman brought in a plain, pinkish-gray, what I call a shipping casket. It was not ornate. It was not damaged?. They brought it up front where we were. At that time we opened up the coffin. Inside was the body bag.
I will get back on the others Some of the confirmation is in regard to the body bag that several describe Do you disagree that a body bag is a problem?
Custer recalled that the body was wrapped in sheets. He never saw a body bag.
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No the ambulance, and the Presidential entourage arrived at 6.55 and Greer for some reason remained parked out front for 15 minutes or so At 7.17 they took the bronze casket to the ante room of the morgue
Dennis David said that the black hearse arrived at the loading dock about 6:45 and that the grey ambulance arrived out front about 30 minutes later.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=708#relPageId=3&tab=page
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And to go a step further
So why does Horne conclude that H&B illicitly removed (and altered) the brain shortly after 6:35 PM, before any X-rays were taken, and before the official autopsy began? He here introduces two intriguing witnesses ? the two R's, namely Reed and Robinson. Edward Reed was assistant to Jerrol Custer (the radiology tech), while Tom Robinson was a mortician. Rather consistently with one another, but quite independently, both describe critical steps taken by H&B that no one else reports. (Horne documents why no one else reported these events ? almost everyone else had been evicted from the morgue before this clandestine interlude.) After the body was placed on the morgue table (and before X-rays were taken), Reed briefly sat in the gallery.18 Reed states19 that Humes first used a scalpel across the top of the forehead to pull the scalp back. Then he used a saw to cut the forehead bone, after which he (and Custer, too) were asked to leave the morgue.
Also according to Horne no one describes the metal head brace that we see in the official autopsy photos This leads to the rather easy conclusion that those photos were taken at a different time Also explains why Stringer did not take them
Regarding Robinson, Horne concludes that he arrived with the hearse that brought the body (i.e., the first entry). After that, Robinson simply observed events from the morgue gallery; contrary to Reed's experience, he was not asked to leave. Just before 7 PM, Robinson22 saw H&B remove large portions of the rear and top of the skull with a saw, in order to access the brain. (Robinson was not aware that this activity was off the record.) He also observed ten or more bullet fragments extracted from the brain. Although these do not appear in the official record, Dennis David recalls23 preparing a receipt for at least four fragments.24
Horne adds an independent argument for multiple casket entries.27 Pierre Finck told the Journal of the American Medical Association28 that he was at home when Humes telephoned him at 7:30 PM. (In his 2/1/65 report to General Blumberg he cites 8 PM.29) Finck, as a forensic pathologist, had been asked to assist with the autopsy. As further confirmation for Finck's overall timeline, he arrived (see his Blumberg report) at the morgue at 8:30 PM. But here is the clincher: during this phone call, Humes told Finck that X-rays had already been taken ? and had already been viewed. On the other hand, the official entry time (with the Joint Service Casket Team) was at 8 PM! If that indeed was the one and only entry time, how then could X-rays have been taken ? let alone developed and viewed (a process of 30 minutes minimum) ? even before the official entry time?
Evidence that there was to be a helicopter to take JFK's body from Andrews to Bethesda
The AF1 tapes reveal unambiguously that Gerald Behn in the White House situation room wanted to separate Mrs. Kennedy (hereafter referred to by her initials, JBK) and all other VIP passengers who were not Secret Service agents from the Dallas casket. Although JFK?s Military Aide, General Ted Clifton (code name ?Watchman?), initially insisted on an autopsy at Walter Reed Hospital and the use of a mortuary-type ambulance for transportation, he eventually fell into line with ?Crown?s? demands and then actively supported Behn?s orders. Here are some telling quotes from the Clifton tapes:
Digest: Walter Reed ambulance for body that will go to Walter Reed, over?
Duplex: Say again, say again.
Digest (Kellerman): ?[we need] an ambulance from Walter Reed to transport body, over?
Duplex (Behn): Arrangements have been made for a helicopter for the Bethesda Naval Medical Center, over.
Digest: Standby, jerry?ah, I?ll have to get Burkley here.
A short time later Behn clarified his intentions:
Duplex: The, everybody aboard Air Force One, everybody aboard Air Force One, with the exception of the body, will be choppered into the South Grounds [of the White House]. The body will be choppered to the Navy Medical Center at Bethesda, over.
Burkley: The body will be choppered or will go by ambulance to the Navy Medical Center?
Duplex: Will be choppered, will be choppered.
For me personally this information really clears up the picture at Bethesda So many contradictions and mystery's before it was overwhelming It amazing when anything about this event becomes clearer
Reed told the ARRB that the body was not in a body bag. Robinson said that the autopsy was already underway when he arrived. So, how could Horne possibly conclude that he arrived with the hearse that brought the body?
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Dennis David said that the black hearse arrived at the loading dock about 6:45 and that the grey ambulance arrived out front about 30 minutes later.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=708#relPageId=3&tab=page
Lets have it your way We still have JFK's body arriving in a separate casket before the bronze (empty) casket arrives with the motorcade
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Matt , this is some very good info on the 2 caskets . I think that Dennis David, being such a good eye witness in the movements that were made with the body of JFK ,brings this 2 casket scenario into what took place at Bethesda that night. Dennis David never believed that LCMDR Pitzer took his own life . Matt, your information and web sites have been very good . Good work , Matt !
Thanks Mike I DO appreciate it I suppose it is almost embarrassing that I had not hear d about it earlier, but it really clears up the picture
Thanks also for the heads up on Pitzer David was certainly involved with some interesting stuff
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Reed told the ARRB that the body was not in a body bag. Robinson said that the autopsy was already underway when he arrived. So, how could Horne possibly conclude that he arrived with the hearse that brought the body?
Again Tim happy to concede the point that the body bag information is not correct or relevant Still does not change the overwhelming evidence of JFK's body arriving before the motorcade
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Lets have it your way We still have JFK's body arriving in a separate casket before the bronze (empty) casket arrives with the motorcade
Nope. That's not what happened. Kennedy's body arrived in the bronze ceremonial casket. That casket was not left unattended from the time that Kennedy's body was placed in it at Parkland to the time it was opened at Bethesda.
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Nope. That's not what happened. Kennedy's body arrived in the bronze ceremonial casket. That casket was not left unattended from the time that Kennedy's body was placed in it at Parkland to the time it was opened at Bethesda.
Was David supposedly being either being 5 to 10 minutes off, or the mere mention of a body bag a major factor in forming that opinion?
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A few questions remain that I am having some difficulty with Was the casket switch before AF 1 takes off or after? The alteration of the rear head wound happens only for the photographs during the illicit autopsy People seem to state that they see the rear head wound during the official autopsy
Also pretty confused on the stories about the delivery of the bronze casket There seems to be solid evidence that the bronze casket is brought into the anteroom of the morgue at 7.17 But then there are the stories that the honor guard loses possession of the casket, chases a decoy ambulance that loses them, and then they magically find the casket again outside the morgue loading dock with JFK's body in it at exactly 8.00 Did the casket disappear from the anteroom or were the honor guard just confuse
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Was David supposedly being either being 5 to 10 minutes off, or the mere mention of a body bag a major factor in forming that opinion?
Probably both and anything else that Tim can throw at it to dismiss the story out of hand.
The elephant in the room is of course that there is just too much evidence to support the two casket scenario, so Tim just cherry picks the small errors in testimony of a number of people to basically claim it all never happened.
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A few questions remain that I am having some difficulty with Was the casket switch before AF 1 takes off or after? The alteration of the rear head wound happens only for the photographs during the illicit autopsy People seem to state that they see the rear head wound during the official autopsy
Also pretty confused on the stories about the delivery of the bronze casket There seems to be solid evidence that the bronze casket is brought into the anteroom of the morgue at 7.17 But then there are the stories that the honor guard loses possession of the casket, chases a decoy ambulance that loses them, and then they magically find the casket again outside the morgue loading dock with JFK's body in it at exactly 8.00 Did the casket disappear from the anteroom or were the honor guard just confuse
Confuse matters as much as possible could have been or perhaps even was a succesfull strategy
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From David Lifton
Mid December, 1980: THE FILM IS SCREENED (by me, personally) FOR DAN RATHER. . .
A few days later, I was back at CBS, this time alone, and I met with Dan Rather (who is eight years my senior) in a screening room. Once again, the lights went out, and the film was shown.
About 22 minutes later, the film was over. I turned to Rather?the same person of whom Steve Glauber, his producer, had predicted, ?Dan?s going to love this!?--but that was not Rather?s reaction. Not at all.
Instead, Rather professed puzzlement, as if he were a child, and what I had just shown him was beyond his comprehension. Really: he behaved in that fashion! He did not understand what the film had conveyed, he said, what it was all about. I had to go through it again, explaining it as if he were a child, that if the body was altered, then autopsy results could be changed; not because ?the doctors lied,?: but because the ?body lied to the doctors.?
Rather responded by saying something rather glib (but important) along these lines: ?But since Oswald assassinated the President, there would be no need to alter the body.? (Yes, he actually said that, or something darn near close to it. Of course: exactly the opposite was the case: if Oswald had not assassinated the President, then there would be every reason to alter the body, or falsify the autopsy in some way).
I could hardly believe my ears. I went over some of the points made in the film, including Dennis David?s account of the arrival of the black hearse, with the shipping casket, prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance at the front ("a good 20 minutes before," said David); and Paul O?Connor?s account of the body arriving inside the morgue, in a body bag, inside a shipping casket (and with an empty cranium).
Rather looked at me blankly and said: ?Well, I think you?ve found some witnesses who remember things a bit differently.?