ROLL UP ROLL UP BOYS AND GIRLS
PICK A Z-FRAME, ANY Z-FRAME(https://i.postimg.cc/446tFwtR/JFK-JBC-react-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)USE THE FRAME COUNT TO PICK WHICH FRAME YOU THINK CONNALLY STARTS TO REACT.
To me, he appears to be reacting to being shot by 224, if not before.
I would certainly have to agree with this assessment.
Below is a rough gif of z224, z225, z226 which, I think, shows JBC beginning to react in an extreme way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzKmSt4Y/z224-226-gif-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
I wonder what other members think of this assessment or if they have a different opinion.
To me, he appears to be reacting to being shot by 224, if not before.Sure looks like it to me. He said that it felt like a fist hitting him in his back. At around Z223/224 his right back looks like it was "punched" or hit by a fist. I know, confirmation bias and all.
Sure looks like it to me. He said that it felt like a fist hitting him in his back. At around Z223/224 his right back looks like it was "punched" or hit by a fist. I know, confirmation bias and all.
Connally (WC testimony): It was "as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade."
Isn't that what we see? His right back crumpling?
It is amazing to me how much influence our preconceptions have on what we see in the photographic record. I am not immune to this phenomenon. People who can’t believe the SBT, for whatever reasons, will deny that JBC is reacting to being shot.He is reacting.
It is amazing to me how much influence our preconceptions have on what we see in the photographic record. I am not immune to this phenomenon. People who can’t believe the SBT, for whatever reasons, will deny that JBC is reacting to being shot.
He is reacting.
I can't tell from the film whether he is reacting being hit in the back or reacting to hearing the first shot hit JFK and fearing an assassination unfolding (as he said occurred).
The only reason to think that the bullet through JFK's neck hit Connally is that the bullet passed through JFK's neck without deflecting and the car shows no sign of being hit. Arlen Specter admitted that this was the reason for the SBT.
If that is indeed the case, the SBT must be correct. The evidence would favour the first shot SBT and we would have to find (as John McCloy did) that the evidence that JBC was hit on the second shot must be wrong.
But if JBC was hit by two bullets and did not feel one because it caused only superficial wound that he did not notice for a few seconds before being hit in the back, then there is no problem with any of the evidence. In fact, the difference in JBC's wounds could be easily explained as would the condition of CE399. Tague's evidence that he was struck on the second shot would also fit. And the trajectory would fit much better. I can't think of any evidence that does not fit that scenario.
Right. And people who believe in the single bullet fantasy "see" a simultaneous reaction. It's a Rorschach test.
What do you see, John?
Oh that's easy, Iacoletti sees the exact opposite of any evidence that convicts Oswald.
JohnM
Connally was reacting at Z223 but watching Mrs. Kennedy it seems JFK was hit a bit earlier. She turns and stares at him right after he goes behind the sign.
The interesting thing is that this isn't about people's pet theories, it's just about what the Z-film is showing.
What do people see?
So far there has been a general consensus that JBC is having an extreme reaction that begins around z223/224.
Obviously, people can't resist adding their own spin, be it the SBT or whatever, but it would be interesting to see if a real consensus can be reached over this issue as I believe it would be a first.
Mrs. Kennedy's job was to acknowledge the crowd and at that point in time the majority of the crowd from her position was behind her husband.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pxrqLBQ/Zapruder-stabilized-just-before-sign.jpg)
Another factor to consider is after hearing a shot at approximately Z160, Connally quickly turns to the right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hVkznpy/connallyturn.gif)
Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?
Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...
Rosemary Willis slows down after hearing a shot at approximately Z160
(https://www.washingtondecoded.com/.a/6a00d834523b6869e2019b02be18c8970b-600wi)
At circa Zapruder film frames 164-171 (hereafter "Z-164-171"), she starts to slow down, then she stops running and, simultaneous with her slowing/stopping, she slightly turns her level-facing head to end up looking towards the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository. Willis stated she stopped because she heard a loud noise that attracted her attention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Willis
JohnM
There is an overwhelming amount of evidence absolutely refuting a first shot as early as the z160's that is covered in "The First Shot" thread.
Rosemary Willis??
Really??
Connally turns his head, therefore there was a shot??
Really??
You seem to have missed that JFK and Jackie also turn their heads to the right at around the same time. Are they all responding to the sound of a shot?
Or are they responding to Mary Woodward and her colleagues shouting at them to turn their way?
Head turns and Rosemary Willis... ::)
You also missed the most reliable piece of evidence of an earlier shot, when Zapruder who was continuously filming while all three shots rang out makes three unique vertical reactions!!!
Zapruder up till and including the headshot only makes three startled vertical jumps while filming, the head shot at Z313, the shot when the Limo emerges from behind the sign and the earlier shot just before Rosemary Willis slows and turns when she says she heard a shot and Connally's quick head turn as confirmed by his own words, testimony which you conveniently ignored. -smug emoji-
(https://i.postimg.cc/85h5y3F8/Zapuder-Shot-Reaction1.gif)
Btw it took time for the gun shot sounds to reach Zapruder hence the slight delay in his reactions.
JohnM
It's not reliable at all.
Marilyn Sitzman describes the shots as sounding really distant. She describes the smashing of the Coke bottle as being far louder.
There is no reason to believe the shots were loud enough to cause a startle effect.
It's not reliable at all.
Marilyn Sitzman describes the shots as not being that loud. She describes the smashing of the Coke bottle as being far louder.
There is no reason to believe the shots were loud enough to cause a startle effect.
Thompson: Could I ask you something about your gaze and actions immediately after the head shot? On the trailer of Mr. Zapruder's film, we noticed that he turned to his right and photographed the general area of the stockade fence, the trees and the stockade fence and that particular area. Did you turn in that direction after the head shot too?
Sitzman: In a way, I have a feeling this: He might have heard the kids throw down the coke bottles and heard that crash or else maybe it was just what he saw could have caused a reaction where he'd jump, but I don't think it was the sound of bullets, because I didn't jump.
Zapruder is a two shot witness. How can Zapruder have a startle reaction to a shot he never heard and he states he never heard. This is an example of the WC and HSCA conclusions indicating “Medias Influence” about inflating the number of shots– He is being asked about a shot he never heard nor did he know anything about this phantom shot until he was told about it.
I believe jiggle analysis only showed a strong reaction twice. Shots one and two that he describes in detail.
ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him,
Thanks, but under the circumstances of Zapruder concentrating on his filming, I can understand him not specifically recalling an inconsequential missed shot.
As for the two shot eyewitnesses, the number is statistically insignificant.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Hn37wd/number-of-shots-pie-chart.jpg)
JohnM
Rather than getting bogged down in various theories, particularly your own, it's more of a general discussion about what we actually see in the Z-film.It looks to me like he is reacting the way he said he reacted to the first shot.
You agree JBC is reacting - how would you describe the reaction?
The example presented was based on startle reaction. How can someone be startled by a sound they did not hear? Again, didn’t jiggle analysis indicate there were only two similar reactions?
These graphs are a fools game. Most of the % is based on earwitnesses not eyewitnesses. Why stop at just the earwitnesses in Dealey Plaza maybe they should have went a block over and asked those people.
The eyewitnesses tell a different story. First statements vs later statements present a different graph. There are endless variations of when the statements are taken as to how many shots and the location of the witnesses, whether they were eyewitnesses or earwitnesses, and also their descriptions of the second shot being the headshot, or two shots so close together they sounded as if they were one. All kinds of descriptions in statements that are interpreted as three shots but are actually two shot descriptions.
Jackie clearly states the medias influence that occurred following the assassination.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.
And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two.
Zapruder is correlating everything he hears to the reaction in the car. You are suggesting that after the headshot he forgot he heard another shot? He flat out stated he only heard two shots. The first shot JFK slumps, second shot his head explodes. No other shots, he doesn't hear a shot and nothing happened in the car.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - …... I never even heard a third shot
Knott Lab and their Laser findings concluded that the SBT is IMPOSSIBLE. This makes the ongoing discussion immaterial. No SBT = Multiple Shooters = Conspiracy. CASE CLOSED!
Knott Lab and their Laser findings...
Just as a matter of interest, when did Knott Lab accurately laser measure the position of JFK's Limo on Elm and more importantly when did they accurately laser measure the precise positions of Kennedy and Connally within the actual Limo?
JohnM
FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. This Laser 360 Technology is far more advanced than ANY that has EVER been done with regard to the JFK Assassination/Dealey Plaza. The Knott Lab 360 technology has routinely been used/accepted in court cases across the USA. CASE CLOSED!
FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. This Laser 360 Technology is far more advanced than ANY that has EVER been done with regard to the JFK Assassination/Dealey Plaza. The Knott Lab 360 technology has routinely been used/accepted in court cases across the USA. CASE CLOSED!
Since you brought up the Limo occupants.These witnesses are a perfect example of the ever -changing and morphing witness statements. All at some time, have no knowledge of a third shot or the second shot is the headshot or plainly there was only two shots. This is why a compilation comparing different witness statements as to two or three shots is flawed from the very get go.
Mrs Connally
Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
John Connally
Mr. SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.
After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us.
William Robert Greer.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.
Roy Kellerman heard a flurry of shots enter the Limo(which I believe were the fragments bouncing around), but he definitely heard more than two.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.
I would also like to finally add that three shells were found in the sniper's nest and the closest earwitness, the "boom click click, boom click click, boom click click" man(Harold Norman) heard 3 shots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKZBXQjv/3-shells-in-sniper-s-nest.jpg)
And the closest earwitness, Harold Norman, who was just on the floor below heard 3 shots.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.
@3:58
JohnM
John is right. the only things laser-surveyed were stationary buildings, structures, streets and objects as they exist today.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b5/ba/VZpWKoBe_o.jpg)
The positioning of the limousine, the two men and the Stemmons sign were entirely subjective. The absurbly-low JFK inshoot and left-chest exit came from a conspiracy theorist.
These witnesses are a perfect example of the ever -changing and morphing witness statements.
You're all over the place Dan, you show three Agents in Altgens6 who all look over their right shoulders looking for a sniper and who were all obviously at that point in time reacting to Kennedy showing signs of being shot and one describes the sounds at that later time in the plural "fireworks"!
Zapruder who was filming at a point not that much further away would have heard the same sounds or do you think that an additional ten or twenty yards would muffle the sounds?
(https://www.grandsubversion.com/jfkAssassination/images/dallas_delaley_plaza/map_dealey_plaza_dallas_jfk_2.jpg)
JohnM
Yes that can be true, nobody wants to be wrong.
In the following video Jay Watson who was a reporter and trained to notice details and was in a media follow up car quickly got back to the studio and tells the world within the hour @27:40 that there was three shots.
At another point in the video Bill Newman doesn't recall a third shot but his wife @32:20 recalls three shots.
Also Jerry, Jay's colleague in the follow up car @36:20 recalls 3 shots.
@27:40
Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKZBXQjv/3-shells-in-sniper-s-nest.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Hn37wd/number-of-shots-pie-chart.jpg)
JohnM
Sure, they accurately laser plotted Dealey Plaza 60 years later, did they allow for the variation in land movement, repaved road height, etc etc?
Also I juxtaposed the two frames from their video presentation and matching the two images showed heavy variations, for example the Don Knotts Lab's Stemmons sign has the wrong angle, the side of the Limo warps, Connally's shoulder height is way off, etc etc.
And again, and listen closely this time, as can be seen by The Don Knotts Lab Hulking out Connally, this avalanche of mistakes leads to more unavoidable errors and lastly the exact plotting of the precise 3D positions of Hulked out Connally and Kennedy from a 2D image is open to biased interpretation.
Iirc Dale Myers scientifically allowed any variations of 3D depth which concurred with the 2D images to fit his hypothesis whereas the opposite methodology of placing the models to achieve a predetermined outcome is the antithesis of science.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPRLYPM4/Don-Knotts-lab-sbf.gif)
JohnM
When was JBC shot through the chest?Connally starts to react at Z224.
I ask "when" in terms of the Z-film - when in the Z-film is JBC hit?
That is to say, when does JBC first show signs that he has been hit [as we cannot see the actual bullet entering him].
I am not asking, when does JBC think he was hit or when any other witness believes he was hit or what any "theory" has to say about it.
When, during the Z-film, does JBC show the clear signs of an extreme reaction that can be safely interpreted as being shot through the chest?
In the clip below, which is s bit jerkier than I would like, we see JBC looking off to his right as JFK waves and smiles to the crowds. He is partially obscured by a part of the limo.
JBC is looking off to his right as he disappears behind the Stemmons sign.
He is still looking off to his right as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
(https://i.postimg.cc/m27kWGdH/Z169-226-JFK-close.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Below is z223.
It shows JBC after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
He is still looking off to his right as he was before he passed behind the Stemmons sign and, in my opinion, he looks calm and composed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyJzTbxy/z223good.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvLkfhSJ/z223goodcrop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Almost immediately after this frame JBC appears to have an extreme reaction.
The clip below is from z222 to z250.
In my opinion it shows JBC having an extreme reaction, most likely to being shot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/446tFwtR/JFK-JBC-react-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Is it an extreme reaction to being shot or could it be something else?
If you agree it is a reaction to being shot then when does this reaction begin?
Sure, they accurately laser plotted Dealey Plaza 60 years later, did they allow for the variation in land movement, repaved road height, etc etc?Knotts Lab said that they allowed for the change in height due to the road re-paving.
Also I juxtaposed the two frames from their video presentation and matching the two images showed heavy variations, for example the Don Knotts Lab's Stemmons sign has the wrong angle, the side of the Limo warps, Connally's shoulder height is way off, etc etc.
And again, and listen closely this time, as can be seen by The Don Knotts Lab Hulking out Connally, this avalanche of mistakes leads to more unavoidable errors and lastly the exact plotting of the precise 3D positions of Hulked out Connally and Kennedy from a 2D image is open to biased interpretation.
Iirc Dale Myers scientifically allowed any variations of 3D depth which concurred with the 2D images to fit his hypothesis whereas the opposite methodology of placing the models to achieve a predetermined outcome is the antithesis of science.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPRLYPM4/Don-Knotts-lab-sbf.gif)
JohnM
Royell Royell Royell, u really should try the carnivore diet.
FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. This Laser 360 Technology is far more advanced than ANY that has EVER been done with regard to the JFK Assassination/Dealey Plaza. The Knott Lab 360 technology has routinely been used/accepted in court cases across the USA. CASE CLOSED!
You also missed the most reliable piece of evidence of an earlier shot, when Zapruder who was continuously filming while all three shots rang out makes three unique vertical reactions!!!Jack your comments, in every thread that i have recently read, are top quality, i have allways been very impressed.
Zapruder up till and including the headshot only makes three startled vertical jumps while filming, the head shot at Z313, the shot when the Limo emerges from behind the sign and the earlier shot just before Rosemary Willis slows and turns when she says she heard a shot and Connally's quick head turn as confirmed by his own words, testimony which you conveniently ignored. -smug emoji-
(https://i.postimg.cc/85h5y3F8/Zapuder-Shot-Reaction1.gif)
Btw it took time for the gun shot sounds to reach Zapruder hence the slight delay in his reactions.
JohnM
Royell Royell Royell, u really should try the carnivore diet.
A laser 3D survey adds nothing to any SBT analysis.
A 1963 survey is all that is needed.
The hijinx is in the placing of jfk & Connally & limo.
Re the limo, Greer ran the left wheels just shy of the left lane line.
This placed jfk close to the center of the road, ie the center of the 3 lanes.
After all, jfk should be located at nearly an even distance from gawkers on the left & on the right.
The X painted in the center lane is well placed.
Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.
Are these the shells Fritz picked up or the ones he threw down in the sniper's nest?
Yes that can be true, nobody wants to be wrong.
In the following video Jay Watson who was a reporter and trained to notice details and was in a media follow up car quickly got back to the studio and tells the world within the hour @27:40 that there was three shots.
At another point in the video Bill Newman doesn't recall a third shot but his wife @32:20 recalls three shots.
Also Jerry, Jay's colleague in the follow up car @36:20 recalls 3 shots.
@27:40
Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKZBXQjv/3-shells-in-sniper-s-nest.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Hn37wd/number-of-shots-pie-chart.jpg)
JohnM
Thanks Jerry, I didn't notice some of your other examples of the inconsistencies between the two images, at the end of the day Dale Myers did this a decade ago with far more accuracy.
Btw your date in your graphic after "Jerry Organ" is 2013?
JohnM
Wow, lucky ole me, the Forum's most devoted Stalker has chased after me half way across the Planet from the Off Topic section to here.
Go away and get a life, Creep.
JohnM
Myers did it in the 1990s with less computer power than in most iPhones today. Thanks for the error spot!
Of course, we shouldn't expect a molecule-level match-up. The SketchUp program, for example, has no "pincushion" effect that the Zapruder camera lens had. So some elements on the far side of the car could be a bit off in a match-up. My model's side-mirror doesn't match but it's not important; there are multiple features that I'm more sure of that allow me to match the model to the frame. The mirror isn't on my priority list right now. Another thing is the resolution of the 8mm film and panning blur. In essence, even a relatively-sharp frame still means the figures and car can be moved an inch this way-or-than and still match.
That's like an allowable error margin of 5%. The Knotts SBT analysis is a lot more than 5%.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/fb/4a/WQAWUivf_o.jpg)
BTW, the critics are howling over a Knotts capture that they think shows the trajectory followed close to the path of the (oh dear) "official" version.
I love it when armchair know-it-alls figure they have the grey matter to take on computers. Yet, when a guy like Max Holland decides to move the JFK Limo and expand the 3 shot time window to 12 seconds, they go silent as a church mouse. This biased approach to THE SCIENCE involved completely DQ's them from any sort of objective analysis what-so-ever. FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. SBT RIP
You think LNers have meekly accepted "Mad Max's" cockamamie Pet Theory?
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2015/06/hollands-deflection-ballistics-and-truth.html
I guess that's what happens when one only visits CT kook sites and blogs.
Jerry - You're knee jerking here and embarrassing yourself. But, desperate people do desperate things. Holland globally launched his ludicrous theory way way back in 2011 during the Nat Geo "The Lost Bullet" Special. He could have even been tooting that laughable horn earlier than that. Your posted link is dated 2015. Is that the Best you got? Really? You are making my case for me. This is indicative of how desperate LN's are with the Knott Laser findings destroying the SBT. Plus, those Knott findings have bolstered the opinion(s) of the oft maligned Cyril Wecht. Double Whammy!! FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. SBT= DOA.
You really can't bring yourself to read a page on an LN site. Near the top are links to earler critiques that go back to 2007, when the Holland Theory first appeared in as a web article. The very day after Holland published, Gary Mack dismissed it, predicting accurately it would not gain any support. Of course there's always a handful of lost souls who support fringe theories like Mortal Error, Two Shots Total and Third Shot Miss.
That's hilarious Jerry. In fact, Gary Mack personally called Holland when someone had a car accident and knocked down that very signal light. Holland could then immediately conduct all kinds of testing on it. But, you probably knew this. Holland, Mack, (while alive), You and others have been pulling on the same end of the rope for a good while now. Having someone like Mack as a "friend" running the Sixth Floor proved invaluable. But the Knott 360 Laser Testing has ended all of this subterfuge. You guys are NOW on the wrong side of Pure Science. SBT RIP
Dave, I wish you would do research first before coming to a conclusion.
At the beginning (which you missed), the presiding judge instructed all of us to disregard everything we may have learned or heard about the assassination and reach a verdict based solely on the evidence presented by the prosecution and defense....which is what real trials do.
Based on that, I voted Not Guilty. The prosecution showed a very weak case and the defense put up enough reasonable doubt that the decision was easy. It didn't matter that history says every major investigation concluded Oswald killed JFK, the evidence presented to us didn't convince me Oswald was in that window with a rifle.
Gary
So what? Gary Mack would graciously help nearly anybody with just about any kind of lamebrain theory. It didn't cost the Museum anything to have Holland cart away a signal cross-arm. Gary, while at the Museum, was host to numerous visiting CT documentary-makers and Hollywood-mythologists like Oliver Stone. Mack had an keen interest in CT/LN minutia to the point where he was sometimes pro-active, such as impartially timing Oswald's movements in Oak Cliff. Mack was an invited juror on the 2013 State Bar of Texas Oswald Mock Trial that ended in amockhung jury; Mack (the LNer's "Museum Friend") voted "Not Guilty".
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. He emailed with me too. So what? Mack got hammered on the audio stuff, got buried on the Badge Man, got bludgeoned on the mis-id of Mumford/McKinnon, got shived on his claiming that Wiegman was filmed "continously", etc, etc, etc. He finally was so battered that he went into the tank and took the Curator position/$$ and thereby consented to the limitations of a leash. Maybe you know what Mack did with the Gordon Arnold camera that Arnold's wife and son gave him? Maybe you know why the Sixth Floor has buried the Gordon Arnold interview? Maybe you know why Mack hid his talking with Gordon Arnold way back in "80" or "81"? Don't matter any more as the Knott Lab Laser results have currently put all of this decades old cloak-n-dagger BS: to bed. Those results and the FACTS that RFK Jr is now supplying to the public have opened up the flood gates. The TRUTH is finally being told.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. He emailed with me too. So what?
Mack got hammered on the audio stuff
got buried on the Badge Man
got bludgeoned on the mis-id of Mumford/McKinnon
got shived on his claiming that Wiegman was filmed "continously"
He finally was so battered that he went into the tank and took the Curator position/$$ and thereby consented to the limitations of a leash.
Maybe you know what Mack did with the Gordon Arnold camera that Arnold's wife and son gave him? Maybe you know why the Sixth Floor has buried the Gordon Arnold interview? Maybe you know why Mack hid his talking with Gordon Arnold way back in "80" or "81"?
Don't matter any more as the Knott Lab Laser results have currently put all of this decades old cloak-n-dagger BS: to bed. Those results and the FACTS that RFK Jr is now supplying to the public have opened up the flood gates. The TRUTH is finally being told.
As Jerry, myself and several prominent CT researchers have pointed out, the Don Knott Lab's results come from "Garbage in Garbage out", they were commissioned by hardcore CT's who heavily contributed to the "Garbage in"! If their study was balanced by a neutral knowledgeable 3D expert then you may have something but you can crow till the cows come home because at the end of the day we have film of Kennedy and Connally violently reacting simultaneously.
Better luck next time!
JohnM
Myers did it in the 1990s with less computer power than in most iPhones today. Thanks for the error spot!
Of course, we shouldn't expect a molecule-level match-up. The SketchUp program, for example, has no "pincushion" effect that the Zapruder camera lens had. So some elements on the far side of the car could be a bit off in a match-up. My model's side-mirror doesn't match but it's not important; there are multiple features that I'm more sure of that allow me to match the model to the frame. The mirror isn't on my priority list right now. Another thing is the resolution of the 8mm film and panning blur. In essence, even a relatively-sharp frame still means the figures and car can be moved an inch this way-or-than and still match.
That's like an allowable error margin of 5%. The Knotts SBT analysis is a lot more than 5%.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/fb/4a/WQAWUivf_o.jpg)
BTW, the critics are howling over a Knotts capture that they think shows the trajectory followed close to the path of the (oh dear) "official" version.
That's like an allowable error margin of 5%. The Knotts SBT analysis is a lot more than 5%.
Oh that's easy, Iacoletti sees the exact opposite of any evidence that convicts Oswald.
Iirc Dale Myers scientifically allowed any variations of 3D depth which concurred with the 2D images to fit his hypothesis whereas the opposite methodology of placing the models to achieve a predetermined outcome is the antithesis of science.
You have collected a mountain of evidence that JFK is reacting to the first shot when he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
I have done a serious amount of research on the specific topic of when the first shot was fired ["The First Shot" thread]
I have collected a mountain of evidence which demonstrates that the first shot was taken around z222/z223 and is the shot that caused JFK's arms to fly towards his throat as seen in the Z-film.
You should trust me on this one John.
You have collected a mountain of evidence that JFK is reacting to the first shot when he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.JBC's reactions/actions - the swift head move/turn to the right and then head going back to the center before they go behind the sign - AND his testimony on why he did this, i.e., he said he heard a shot, are explained how? Crowd noise?
When they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign, both men are reacting to the first shot, just as the evidence says they did
The first bullet passed through JFK on a right to left path without deflecting a material amount and did not appear to strike the car so that is when JBC was first hit by a bullet (ie. when the first shot struck).
JBC was hit in the back on the second shot, according to the evidence. There were only three shots.
JBC's reactions/actions - the swift head move/turn to the right and then head going back to the center before they go behind the sign - AND his testimony on why he did this, i.e., he said he heard a shot, are explained how? Crowd noise?JBC's head turn to the right is from z164-171 and follows JFK turning his head in the same direction from z159-168. Neither turns would appear to be unusual. The explanation for those turns was provided by Mary Woodward who said that JFK and Jackie were turned to the left so she waved and shouted to them as they approached. JFK appears to be looking at her as he goes past the lamp post just to the left of Woodward. JBC continues looking and turned to the right as he disappears behind the Stemmons sign. Mary Woodward said that this turn and the subsequent smile and hand wave occurred before the first "horrible, ear-shattering noise". Many others said the same thing. She also said that she and her friends were the last people that JFK ever acknowledged. So that has to be the turn that she is describing.
JBC's head turn to the right is from z164-171 and follows JFK turning his head in the same direction from z159-168. Neither turns would appear to be unusual. The explanation for those turns was provided by Mary Woodward who said that JFK and Jackie were turned to the left so she waved and shouted to them as they approached. JFK appears to be looking at her as he goes past the lamp post just to the left of Woodward. JBC continues looking and turned to the right as he disappears behind the Stemmons sign. Mary Woodward said that this turn and the subsequent smile and hand wave occurred before the first "horrible, ear-shattering noise". Many others said the same thing. She also said that she and her friends were the last people that JFK ever acknowledged. So that has to be the turn that she is describing.Mary Woodward & friends were on the north side of Elm St, she was 3rd after Millican.
The turn that JBC described was a turn in response to the first shot, which he recognized as a rifle shot and immediately feared an assassination was taking place. He said he turned to the right to try to see the President. That turn begins about z230. That is the only time he turns around to make any effort to look in the President's direction.
JBC's head turn to the right is from z164-171 and follows JFK turning his head in the same direction from z159-168. Neither turns would appear to be unusual.
The explanation for those turns was provided by Mary Woodward who said that JFK and Jackie were turned to the left so she waved and shouted to them as they approached. JFK appears to be looking at her as he goes past the lamp post just to the left of Woodward. JBC continues looking and turned to the right as he disappears behind the Stemmons sign. Mary Woodward said that this turn and the subsequent smile and hand wave occurred before the first "horrible, ear-shattering noise". Many others said the same thing. She also said that she and her friends were the last people that JFK ever acknowledged. So that has to be the turn that she is describing.
The turn that JBC described was a turn in response to the first shot, which he recognized as a rifle shot and immediately feared an assassination was taking place. He said he turned to the right to try to see the President. That turn begins about z230. That is the only time he turns around to make any effort to look in the President's direction.
You have collected a mountain of evidence that JFK is reacting to the first shot when he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
When they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign, both men are reacting to the first shot, just as the evidence says they did
The first bullet passed through JFK on a right to left path without deflecting a material amount and did not appear to strike the car so that is when JBC was first hit by a bullet (ie. when the first shot struck).
JBC was hit in the back on the second shot, according to the evidence. There were only three shots.
Doesn't Nelly and Jackie also turn to their right about there?Jackie and Nellie begin their turns to the front-right at about z174.
But nobody on Woodward's side of the street appears to be waving at the Kennedys during that time (a few clap hands). Woodward can't see Jackie's face Z133ff; by time Jackie turns her head right, JFK and his right arm are in the line-of-sight. So the waving and the facial contract between Woodward and the Kennedys must have occurred before Z133. I don't see why the Woodward group wouldn't be eager to get the Kennedys' attention as soon as the car straighten out, rather than seconds before it was to pass them. They seem in awe as the limousine goes by them in the film and satisfied with the moment; seems no further antics were needed.You can tell that they are NOT waving? We can only see their backs. She could have been waving at any time. She said she shouted when JFK was approaching looking to the left. He is looking to the left until z159. He never looks left after that and her impression was that JFK did not acknowledge anyone after acknowledging them.
... and the reactions he shows (sudden jacket pluck, unnaturally-fast wrist flip, subsequent collapse) are merely the Governor "showing concern" for the President.There is an increase in the amount of white shirt seen between z222 and z223. There is a decrease in the amount of white shirt seen from z223 and z224. How are you able to tell that the first (z222-223) is not caused by jacket motion due to arm movement? How are you able to tell that the second (z223-224) is any different: ie. a "pluck" caused by a bullet and not simply a movement of the jacket caused by arm motion (or a combination of jacket movement and, possibly, changing shadow)?
When they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign, both men are reacting to the first shot, just as the evidence says they didI was referring to when both men emerge from behind the Stemmons sign. When both men emerge (z224 and after) I see reactions in both men. JFK is obviously reacting and JBC begins moving his arms from z224-228 as he prepares to turn around. JBC did not say that he reacted to being hit. He said he reacted by turning around to see JFK out of fear that an assassination was unfolding. That arm movement has to be part of that turn.
How can you say JBC is reacting to the first shot when he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign?
Are you seriously saying that this frame shows JBC "reacting"?
Connally himself, after studying high-quality prints of the Z film under high magnification for LIFE magazine, said he was certain, beyond any doubt, that he was not hit before Z228.
When he reemerges into view in Z222, he does have a concerned look on his face and appears somewhat tense, but that is only natural because he has just heard at least one loud bang that sounded like a gunshot. So, yes, naturally, he would feel worried and would become somewhat tense. But that is a far cry from reacting to multiple, extremely painful wounds, including having a bullet tear through your upper torso and smashing several ribs in the process.
In Z238, we see Connally's right shoulder slammed downward and an obvious pained look begins to form on his face. The bullet probably hit him between Z234 and Z237, just as he said.
Connally only studied still frames and did the best he could and guessed!
Today we have the technology to closely examine consecutive frames.
As Connally emerges from behind the sign his jacket billows as CE399 passes through and his right shoulder thrusts forward as his left shoulder violently raises.
At the same split second both Connally and Kennedy react simultaneously
Connally's hat flip and look of immense pain happen way before Z230.
Btw Griffith, why do you believers in Zapruder Film alteration still use exact Zapruder frames to prove your theories, you have absolutely no right to use the Zapruder film! Hypocrite!
JohnM
I use the Zapruder film as evidence because the forgers were not able to remove all the problematic elements from the film. There was only so much editing they could do. They could not get rid of every unwanted sequence. That's why the film was suppressed for so many years. The plotters recognized that even the altered version markedly contradicted the lone-gunman scenario.
Wow, it's amazing that Connally himself, the man who actually experienced the wounding, was absolutely certain that he was not hit before Z228. He looked at every frame from Z222 through Z245 under high magnification and using high-qualify prints of each frame, and he saw no indication that he was hit before Z228. But you say he only "guessed" and could not recognize his own reactions!
His right shoulder does not start to get slammed forward and downward until Z238, and his face does not start to exhibit a pained expression until Z238. Connally said the bullet's impact felt like someone punched him hard in the back, so it's ludicrous to suppose that the impact occurred in Z224. You would not have a 14-frame delay between impact and shoulder collapse. You might have a 3-4-frame delay, but no more. This lines up with Connally's conclusion that the bullet's impact occurred at Z234.
And how do you have an SBT hit at Z224 when JFK begins to react to his non-fatal wounding at around Z200, and when Jackie clearly starts to react to JFK's reaction in Z202, as even the HSCA photographic experts recognized and acknowledged? We now know that the initial Secret Service analysis of the Z film concluded that JFK was hit at Z199.
The HSCA experts also recognized that Willis slide 5 is strong evidence that JFK was hit at least 17 frames before he disappears behind the freeway sign because Willis slide 5 corresponds with Z202. Willis specified that he snapped the picture in a startle reaction to hearing a shot fired. Allowing time for Willis's brain and nervous system to receive, process, and react to the sound of the shot, this means Willis heard the shot at around Z186-190, as the HSCA experts explained. I cover this in some detail in my book.
I use the Zapruder film as evidence because the forgers were not able to remove all the problematic elements from the film. There was only so much editing they could do. They could not get rid of every unwanted sequence. That's why the film was suppressed for so many years. The plotters recognized that even the altered version markedly contradicted the lone-gunman scenario.
Wow, it's amazing that Connally himself, the man who actually experienced the wounding, was absolutely certain that he was not hit before Z228. He looked at every frame from Z222 through Z245 under high magnification and using high-qualify prints of each frame, and he saw no indication that he was hit before Z228. But you say he only "guessed" and could not recognize his own reactions!
His right shoulder does not start to get slammed forward and downward until Z238, and his face does not start to exhibit a pained expression until Z238.
There's no "wow" about it, we can all see the same frames now and today instead of examining still frames we have the added benefit of studying those very same frames in repeated motion.
For starters contrary to popular belief, when someone is struck by a bullet, there has never been an over the top Hollywood type reaction and the frames I presented show Connally's lapel flip and his sharp sudden forward thrust of only an inch or two, you know like real life. And secondly I don't see any forward slamming at Z238??
Take off your conspiracy blinding glasses and have an honest look.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8v-YQb6mFo0/WVXcxF5rw4I/AAAAAAABMJE/Ge6Ef1RgHQkDioCxaoghpM0Npv6-xgpIACLcBGAs/s1600/Z-Film-Clip-SBT-In-Motion---3.gif)
At frame 238 check out the orientation of Connally's severely right turned body and knowing the entrance and exit points of Connally's wounds, seriously consider the trajectory required and then postulate what would be the location of your mysterious sniper, from a helicopter perhaps?? Because at the established earlier Zapruder frame, Connally wounds are perfectly lined up back to Oswald's sniper's nest!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jbpymw7jW20/WMzJdh_W5AI/AAAAAAABLkU/Eyc_-irXYv8vxMwinJVEiKJvO4iv0IIwQCLcB/s1600/Z-Film%2BClip-SBT-In-Motion.gif)
JohnM
And how do you have an SBT hit at Z224 when JFK begins to react to his non-fatal wounding at around Z200, and when Jackie clearly starts to react to JFK's reaction in Z202, as even the HSCA photographic experts recognized and acknowledged? We now know that the initial Secret Service analysis of the Z film concluded that JFK was hit at Z199.
The HSCA experts also recognized that Willis slide 5 is strong evidence that JFK was hit at least 17 frames before he disappears behind the freeway sign because Willis slide 5 corresponds with Z202. Willis specified that he snapped the picture in a startle reaction to hearing a shot fired. Allowing time for Willis's brain and nervous system to receive, process, and react to the sound of the shot, this means Willis heard the shot at around Z186-190, as the HSCA experts explained. I cover this in some detail in my book.
Well isn't that convenient, the "plotters" only altered frames/sequences which don't affect your theories? What a load of self serving nonsense.
Anyway Griffith, let me get this straight, the "plotters" didn't alter the sequences where Oswald's bullets actually struck his victims but isn't one of your theories that the "plotters" altered ineffectual frames/timing around Brehm's son, is that right and the most important question that needs answering is WHY?
Speaking of self-serving nonsense…
“Oswald’s bullets”. LOL.
“Oswald’s sniper’s nest”. LOL.
All Moot. SBT = DOA
Here is another clear, obvious fact that proves that JFK was hit well before Z224, and that therefore he and Connally were hit by separate bullets, even if we erroneously assume that Connally was hit at Z224: In Z224, we see that JFK has already brought his left hand up to the level of his throat and that Jackie is looking intently at him. Obviously, JFK began this motion with his left arm many frames earlier because his left hand is already up to the level of his throat in Z224.
| (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1ZzOxJVXfcigIKhKEHdTcmn96XqNnSSIV) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=11Yu0cNpqqxBkD7eW5RZ66yPPCw9rP_--) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1XDaZJObVpx1llZjqWBzWPiEA8jT4Hqea) |
Similarly, Jackie's reaction undeniably begins before she and JFK disappear behind the freeway sign. As anyone can plainly see, she starts to turn her head rapidly to the right, toward JFK, by no later than Z200, whereas before that point she is looking to her left or straight ahead. Obviously, something important happened to JFK that caused her to suddenly turn her head to the right to look at him. When she reemerges from behind the road sign at Z221, she is looking straight at JFK and continue to do so from that point onward.
In Z224, we also see Connally in the process of completing a rightward turn of his head. In Z228, he has completed his turn and is looking nearly straight ahead, with his shoulders virtually parallel to the limo's roll bar. In Z229, he is still looking nearly straight ahead and has no apparent expression of pain on his face, yet the Z224 SBT would have us believe that five frames earlier a bullet had torn through his chest, smashing several ribs along the way. And where is the powerful blow that Connally said he felt when the bullet hit him? No such reaction occurs until Z238, when his right shoulder is suddenly slammed downward and forward and an obvious expression of pain begins to form on his face.
But even if you choose to ignore Connally's reactions, there is no way anyone can rationally, seriously believe that JFK could have brought his left arm up toward his throat in response to a Z224 hit. Clearly, undeniably, that reaction began many frames before Z224, as did Jackie's response to that reaction.
These things are obvious to anyone with adequate eyesight. It is just a matter of whether one is willing to admit them.
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/12/72/rU7zgIAx_o.gif) | (https://images2.imgbox.com/cd/45/rI3VSEP5_o.gif) |
You can LOL as much as you like but it won't change history.
Brennan under oath verified that Oswald was holding a rifle in the 6th floor snipers nest window.
Brennan's close description of Oswald
was in his affidavit and had to be the source of the virtually identical description that went out over the Police radio 15 minutes later.
Oswald's relatively fresh prints were discovered on the rifle rest box which was moved half way across the floor.
Oswald owned the rifle found on the 6th floor.
Oswald was photographed with the rifle.
The bullet fragments recovered from the Limo were an exclusive match
Oswald's prints were on the rifle,
Three types of Oswald's arrest shirt fibres were a match to the three types of fibres found on the rifle.
Oswald immediately flees the scene.
Oswald in his frantic rush get's on and off a bus.
Oswald's cab stops way past his Rooming house.
Oswald admits getting his revolver.
Oswald kills Tippit in front of an eyewitness and many more see Oswald flee that scene holding a gun.
Oswald's shells at the scene exclusively match Oswald revolver.
Oswald discards his jacket in a carpark.
Oswald tries to kill more Police when arrested.
Oswald was not wearing his Zipper jacket when arrested.
Oswald lies about the authenticated backyard photo's.
Oswald lies about the ownership of the rifle.
Oswald lies to Frazier about curtain rods.
Oswald lies about carrying his lunch.
Oswald lies about placing his long package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
Oswald lies about where he purchased his revolver.
Oswald defected to the enemy.
Oswald's told us in his own diary that he tried to commit suicide.
Oswald bashed his wife.
Oswald was a bad bad man!
Etc etc etc....
Here is another clear, obvious fact that proves that JFK was hit well before Z224, and that therefore he and Connally were hit by separate bullets, even if we erroneously assume that Connally was hit at Z224: In Z224, we see that JFK has already brought his left hand up to the level of his throat and that Jackie is looking intently at him. Obviously, JFK began this motion with his left arm many frames earlier because his left hand is already up to the level of his throat in Z224.
You can call unsubstantiated assertions “history” all you like, but it doesn’t make them true.
“Verified”. LOL. No more than Euins “verified” under oath that the rifleman had a bald spot. And Brennan failed to make a positive ID at the lineup that was egregiously unfair and biased to begin with, even after seeing Oswald’s picture on television.
LOL. Wrong height, wrong weight, wrong age, wrong clothing.
Why did it “have to be”? Funny that Sawyer didn’t remember his informant wearing a hard hat.
“Relatively recent”. LOL. “Rifle rest box”. LOL.
LOL.
LOL.
“Recovered from the limo”. LOL.
“Prints”. LOL. “On the rifle”. LOL.
“Match”. LOL.
“Flees”, “frantic rush”, “admits”, “kills Tippit”, “shells at the scene”, “Oswald revolver”, “his jacket”, “tries to kill”, “lies about”.
LOL
Now he believes he is clairvoyant. Further proof the Knott Lab Laser 360 SCIENCE has knocked him for a loop. SBT = DOA
in junction with computer evaluated still frames and photographs taken on 11/22/63.
Even though you inadvertently have supplied further Proof of the Current Z Film being Bogus,
As difficult as it might be, try to FOCUS on the Laser projected bullet trajectory. You are so far off your game or what used to be your game, I feel sorry for you. Knott Labs has really knocked you for a loop. SBT = "IMPOSSIBLE"
Even though you inadvertently have supplied further Proof of the Current Z Film being Bogus,
And I know that if Connally way back when he examined individual frames had this added degree of accuracy he would would heartily agree with this unescapable conclusion!That is very persuasive. But I can do better. I say that this was the first shot ie. there was no earlier missed shot. And I know that if JFK had survived the assassination attempt by Oswald, he would agree with that inescapable conclusion. Presidential credibility beats Governor credibility so you can't get any better than that.
The WC apologists' posts in this thread are a sad but telling example of why nearly all the progress made on the case has been made by WC skeptics. WC apologists are chained down by the Commission's fictional one-shooter-three-shot scenario and so they are forced to come up with ludicrous explanations for evidence that deep down they know refutes the single-bullet theory.
Of all the whacky, self-evidently bogus arguments put forward by WC defenders, the claim that JFK and Connally were hit by the same bullet in Z224 has to rank in the Top 10.
Anyone with functioning eyes can see that JFK is clearly and obviously already reacting to a wound when he partially reemerges into view in Z224 as we see his left forearm nearing the level of his throat, and Jackie is clearly and obviously already noticing JFK's reaction in Z224. Unless you're committed to denying your own eyes can see, you know that these reactions must have started many frames before Z224.
Moreover, even if you force yourself to ignore the self-evident reactions in Z224, there is also the fact that in Z225, when we can see both of JFK's forearms, we see that JFK has both of his hands in a clutching formation and is bringing both hands up to the level of his throat. There is no way he could have done this in response to a shot at Z224. Humans cannot respond and move their arms that rapidly after being wounded. Not on this planet.
And then, of course, there is the fact that Connally survived his wounds and adamantly insisted he was not hit before Z228. No one knows you better than you. No one knows what your facial expressions and body movements mean better than you do. Connally had knowledge that no one else had (1) because he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding, and (2) because no one knew him better than he did.
After carefully studying high-quality prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, Connally said he was certain beyond all doubt that he was not hit before Z228, and he identified Z234 as the moment of impact--and just four frames later, or just 4/18ths of a second later, or just 222 milliseconds later, or less than 1/4th of a second later, we see the start of the dramatic slamming down of his right shoulder, in perfect harmony with his statement that the bullet's impact felt like someone hit him hard in the back.
I know we can all see these things. It's just a question of whether or not one is willing to be honest and credible about what they prove.
Given how close JBC and JFK were to each other in the car. Explain JBC's wound and from where did the shot originate from if the bullet did not pass through JFK first. Was there two shooters sitting side by side in the Snipers Nest? Early on, JBC gave all kinds of statements and most do not match up with previous statements. Nellie even changed her statement to match his.
It is known that the shots originated from the 6th floor window above BRW, Jarmin, and Norman. We also know BRW said there was two shots and Jarmin describes the headshot as the second shot. You may not like SBT but it is the only answer possible unless you think JFK somehow shot JBC. That would be the only other answer.
False. Connally was consistent on every major point in his various statements through at least the 1970s.
I'm baffled as to how you could think that any shot that hit Connally would have had to first hit JFK. That's just silly, even if you assume that all the shots came from the sixth-floor window.
Moreover, a gunman firing from the Dal-Tex Building or the County Records Building could have barely missed Kennedy and accidentally hit Connally instead.
I think you're another one who's stuck in a time warp. You talk like we're in the early 1970s. Are you unaware of recent research that has utterly destroyed the SBT? Do you know anything about the ARRB disclosures about the back wound's location, about the absolute determination at the autopsy that the back wound was shallow and had no exit point, about the fragments in the C3/C4 region, etc., etc.? Are you aware that the HSCA's photographic experts found clear, powerful evidence that JFK was hit before Z190, i.e., when the sixth-floor gunman's view would have been obstructed by the oak tree? And on and on we could go.
The WC apologists' posts in this thread are a sad but telling example of why nearly all the progress made on the case has been made by WC skeptics. WC apologists are chained down by the Commission's fictional one-shooter-three-shot scenario and so they are forced to come up with ludicrous explanations for evidence that deep down they know refutes the single-bullet theory.
WC apologists are chained down by the Commission's fictional one-shooter-three-shot scenario
So the straight line trajectory doesn’t work for the SBT, so there must have been some zigzagging happening , only not as extreme as the original hand drawn diagram showed ?
Still waiting for a real empirical test that includes the the bullet going thru wrist bone and stopping finally into material replicating thigh muscle.
The 2003 Beyond Conspiracy test not only failed to prove any zigzagging, but in the straight line trajectory they DID record, the bullet did not exit from the throat of the JFK replica torso, but rather from the upper right chest of the torso.
And then there was NO wrist bone element or thigh tissue material that the bullet had to continue thru after exiting the 2nd torso, the bullet instead, into soft ground.
Even with that critical omission, the bullet recovered looked much more deformed than CE 399 was.
How about finish this thought train you are on and explain all of Gov Connally’s wounds starting from the point where the only way to explain the wound in JBC’s back is the fact that the bullet first must pass through JFK’s neck. Somewhere in this belief you are presenting one bullet stopped and another took over coursing through his body to his thigh?There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car. It is very likely that the wrist injury was from the bullet exiting JBC's chest. But the wound characteristics and the condition of the bullet that caused the wrist wound differ markedly from that of the left thigh wound. No one seems to have considered that JBC was hit by two bullets, the first one (thigh) which he did not feel (we know that he never felt it).
There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car.There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the head (small fragments in xray) on the first shot (ricochet off signal arm)(at pseudo Z105) and reacted to it (my god i am hit). The first shot did strike the car (CE567 & 569)(hole in floor... photo dec1963).
I’m not saying the SBT trajectory is impossible.
I’m suggesting it should be aligned as a nearly straight line trajectory similar to Myers computer graphic model with a slight adjustment to Myers positioning of JCs legs and where JC was holding his hat at time of impact of the bullet entering his back.
There has not been,imo, , a satisfactory experiment that’s proved a straight line trajectory for an MC 6.5mm ball nosed bullet that aligns the wounds of JFK and JC, nor has demonstrated such minimal deformation as CE 399 displays , nor has there been a replication of any zigzagging that occurred by this type 6.5 mm MC bullet when fired thru 2 replica human bodies.
Another series of tests are needed to
Prove either :
1. a straight line trajectory of a ball nosed 6.5 mm MC bullet going thru 2 replica bodies that align all the wounds and when bullet recovered matches the minimal deformation of CE339
Or:
2. Demonstrates A slight zigzagging trajectory that aligns the wounds and the 6.5mm ball nosed MC bullet when recovered matches CE399.
The 2003 Beyond Conspiracy experiment demonstrated the MC 6.5mm bullet did NOT zigzag, maintaining a straight path as it went thru both replica bodies.
The correct entry on the back of the JFK model was hit , however the exit from that model was NOT from the throat, instead , the bullet exited from the right side upper chest of the JFK replica torso.
The bullet recovered showed more deformation than CE 399 and this without even having to go also thru wrist bone after exiting the 2nd replica body.
Since there was a fairly believable witness who found a bullet on the stretcher whom always maintained his opinion that the bullet he saw was a more pointed shaped bullet than the ball nosed round shaped CE 399 bullet., therefore requires more tests firing conical shaped bullets from 6.5 mm to 7.62 mm.
The angle of JCs legs and the angle of his upper torso and shoulders must be positioned to align the trajectory path as close to straight line as possible and the hat must be upside down and the well of the hat hanging off the outside of the left thigh because that’s about the only way the same bullet that exited from JFKs body could go thru JCs right hand and not go thru the hat.
It’s a certainty from the Z- film frames ( unless there is some Conspiratorial alteration ) that JC was holding his hat upside down, clutched in his right hand which he raised up suddenly only AFTER being hit.
No hole in the hat and no blood residue on the hat suggests the most probable position of the hat at the moment JC was hit, was such that the hat was upside down on the outside of JCs left leg being held down with the palm of his right hand pressing the rim of the hat against the upper part of his left leg/thigh. The bullet entered the top of JCs right wrist and then exited the bottom of the palm , then entered JCs inner left thigh, without any portion of the hat well or rim, being in the path of the bullet.
There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car. It is very likely that the wrist injury was from the bullet exiting JBC's chest. But the wound characteristics and the condition of the bullet that caused the wrist wound differ markedly from that of the left thigh wound. No one seems to have considered that JBC was hit by two bullets, the first one (thigh) which he did not feel (we know that he never felt it).
The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could easily have gone to the left side of JBC.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kg1YrsW4/limo-z197-First-Shot-2.jpg)
If it occurred where the witnesses said the first shot occurred (after z186 and before z202) with JBC turned to the right, the left thigh could easily have been in that path. With JFK to the far right so that his midline was immediately behind JBC's right shoulder (which is farther right than he was) this could have been the view of JBC that he saw before the first shot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx71ZqxW/JBC-z200-rear1-reenactment.jpg)
There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car. It is very likely that the wrist injury was from the bullet exiting JBC's chest. But the wound characteristics and the condition of the bullet that caused the wrist wound differ markedly from that of the left thigh wound. No one seems to have considered that JBC was hit by two bullets, the first one (thigh) which he did not feel (we know that he never felt it).
The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could easily have gone to the left side of JBC.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kg1YrsW4/limo-z197-First-Shot-2.jpg)
If it occurred where the witnesses said the first shot occurred (after z186 and before z202) with JBC turned to the right, the left thigh could easily have been in that path. With JFK to the far right so that his midline was immediately behind JBC's right shoulder (which is farther right than he was) this could have been the view of JBC that he saw before the first shot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx71ZqxW/JBC-z200-rear1-reenactment.jpg)
Shhhhh! ... (Don't tell Mason his figure placements are ridiculous. It's Christmas.)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1X2yb5u7l9CuouFDagDZdn4ytbyi3emDW)
The question is whether a 12-14 degree right to left trajectory through JFK's midline/neck between z186 and z202 could, within the range of error in determining the relative positions of the two men from the zfilm, put the left thigh on a path from the SN through JFK's neck. That path could be either completely straight or with a possible slight shift in direction due to bullet instability after exiting JFK.
Shhhhh! ... (Don't tell Mason his figure placements are ridiculous. It's Christmas.)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1X2yb5u7l9CuouFDagDZdn4ytbyi3emDW)
I have to agree, Andrew's 3D characters don't look to be in the right position at the time of the SBF, whereas yours being corroborated with the Croft photo are much more accurate and are perfectly lined up fof the SBF. Very nice work.
Btw, the Knott Lab's 3D artists could learn a thing or two from you. Thumb1:
JohnM
There are inconsistencies between your different views and the photos. As you point out, you need to raise JFK's shoulders in the rear view to fit with your lateral view and with Croft and Altgens' 5. You also have JFK with his ribs pressing against the side of the car, which does not fit with z195 or z225. I would place him at least an inch farther left and probably 2 inches. His right shoulder is definitely inside the car because the upper arm is extending outward from the shoulder to the top of the car:
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1X2yb5u7l9CuouFDagDZdn4ytbyi3emDW)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a9/19/skukExmE_o.png)I see that you have not tried sitting on a seat on the floor with your knees in the air. Unless you are a eunuch, you would sit with legs apart.
How I currently perceive Mason's Pet Theory.
"The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling
on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could
easily have gone to the left side of JBC."
....
"hit the left thigh if it was out to the left as it likely was
(he would not sit as you have him with his legs together)"
How do you know that? Hee hee. More likely both knees were towards the car door as he spent much of his time looking to his right.
As one might expect, a bullet passing through the soft tissues of a body without directly striking bone should follow a straight line—from the point of entry to the point of exit from where it continues without deviating; however, ballistics has demonstrated that this is not the case.For a bullet to deviate from a straight path a net force must be applied to it (Newton 1). So it must experience asymmetrical forces to deviate from the straight line path from the rifle. It does not appear to have struck anything hard in passing through the neck so, as the WC ballistics experts noted, it would leave JFK's throat in a straight line but likely tumbling (as it would have lost rifling in passing through JFK).
After the bullet penetrates JFK's back, while it traverses through his body, it probably deviates from a straight line—possibly slightly UPWARD from its initial line and to the RIGHT; but continues in a general downward trajectory as it exits his throat and strikes Governor Connally.
The Knott Laboratory digital reconstruction appears rather convincing until one scrutinises it further. They base their findings on straight-line bullet trajectories from entry to exit that continue without deviation while traversing JFK's neck and continue undeviated after projectile exit. A bullet deviating RIGHT as it exits the throat could account for the discrepancy in their trajectory analysis. So, their determinations are demonstrable fallacies and, therefore, cannot be used as irrefutable evidence to disprove the Single Bullet Theory.
There's lot of hype about the Knott Lab laser reconstruction but I can't find an independent analysis or critique of it anywhere.You seem to be starting with the assumption that the SBT is correct and occurred about z225 and criticizing Knott for disagreeing with you.
The pic below shows the culmination of the reconstruction and illustrates their fundamental claim, that the bullet passing through JFK can't be lined up with JBC:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nVPxSGb5/knott2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The green line shows the trajectory of the bullet from the SN.
The red line shows the trajectory of the bullet passing through JBC.
Two issues spring out immediately:
1] The Knott reconstruction shows the bullet passing through JFK and hitting JBC (green line). It shows the bullet hitting JBC about 10 inches away from where it should be. The question is - what happened to the bullet they show hitting JBC? We know he wasn't hit in the position they are showing, so what happened to this bullet?
2] The red line, showing the trajectory of the bullet through JBC, seems to be showing that JBC was shot by JFK!! Is that the revolutionary new theory Knott are presenting? It is beyond obvious that their reconstruction shows the bullet that hits JBC in the back MUST pass through JFK first. How do they explain this?
Knott Laboratory don't seem to have taken reality into account. They haven't taken into account that the Z-film shows both men reacting at exactly the same moment. If there were two different bullets, as Knott claims, then JFK must have shot JBC as it is IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to hit JBC in the back without going through JFK first.
On top of this, their reconstruction shows the moment at z225. By z223 the bullet has passed through both men, crushing JBC's rib on the way through. While this does not really affect the position of JFK (as the bullet passes straight through soft tissue), it radically affects the position of JBC by z225 as his body is responding to the instantaneous physical reaction of the bullet against bone. The right side of his body is thrust forward instantaneously and has twisted to a significant degree by z225.
Below is a still from the Knott reconstruction and it shows that JFK and JBC are sat pretty much one behind the other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3GgFgCD/knott4.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This is simply not the case. JBC was sat far more inboard than this reconstruction shows. The pic taken by Dave Powers demonstrates this clearly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85qrH67s/powerspic.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I'm no image analyst but there seems to be lots of issues with the Knott reconstruction and I don't see where they've had to answer any difficult questions about it.
You seem to be starting with the assumption that the SBT is correct and occurred about z225 and criticizing Knott for disagreeing with you.
Knott Labs took all the physical evidence and made an accurate model not only of Dealey Plaza, but of the car and its position and direction on the street at each frame. They then determined the trajectory to see if a shot from the SN could possibly have gone through both men as the SBT says. They conclude that, based on the physical evidence, position and direction of the car and the distances between the two men as they were seated, that JBC would have to have been in the position shown at z225 and concluded that the path would have struck JBC farther left than he was actually struck:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBGNF7Y0/SBT-trajectory-z225.jpg)
So they conclude that the SBT could not have occurred at z225 according to the trajectory from the SN through JFK unless JBC was seated where they show. So they tried it at z210 to see if it worked. And it did not at z210 either.
I believe that they have mis-labelled the z210 and z225 trajectory images because the position of JBC in the right frame labelled Z225 has him turned to the right side, which is not the position that JBC was in at z225. Rather that was the position before he disappeared behind the sign. The position shown in the frame labelled Z210 has him facing forward, as he was in z225 but not z210:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjLjJZdk/SBT-trajectory-z210-225.jpg)
There is no doubt JFK is shot through the throat between z-frames 222 and 223. I'm asking a simple question - where did the bullet go that Knott Labs have striking JBC's back?I not only have considerable doubt about the first shot being that late, there is considerable evidence is against it. You are ignoring Phil Willis, as well as his daughter Linda. You are also ignoring Rosemary Willis' sharp turn at z204-206:
There is also no doubt that the Z-film shows both men having radical reactions at exactly the same moment, a reality the Knott Labs model fails to explain.The evidence that the first bullet passed through JFK but did not strike JBC in the back is also consistent with both men having "radical reactions" at "exactly" the same moment. [edit:] JBC said he reacted immediately after recognizing the sound as a rifle shot and, fearing an assassination unfolding, turned around out of concern for JFK being shot. He was quite clear that his reaction to the first shot was not from being hit in the back by it.
And the trajectory for JBC's wounds seems to be showing that he was shot by JFK!! A new theory that holds about as much water as your own truly dead and buried theory.If you are referring to the red line trajectory, that is the path that a bullet would have to follow for JBC to be hit in the right armpit and exit under his right nipple at that point. That red line trajectory does not fit a shot from the SN, obviously. So the conclusion would have to be that JBC was not struck in the back at that point, based on the Knott model.
I not only have considerable doubt about the first shot being that late, there is considerable evidence is against it. You are ignoring Phil Willis, as well as his daughter Linda. You are also ignoring Rosemary Willis' sharp turn at z204-206:Question: What caused the "radical reaction" by JBC at the same moment as JFK's "radical reaction" to a bullet hitting him?
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsF3w5Cx/z202-z206-RWillis.gif)
The evidence that the first bullet passed through JFK but did not strike JBC in the back is also consistent with both men having "radical reactions" at "exactly" the same moment. If you are referring to the red line trajectory, that is the path that a bullet would have to follow for JBC to be hit in the right armpit and exit under his right nipple at that point. That red line trajectory does not fit a shot from the SN, obviously. So the conclusion would have to be that JBC was not struck in the back at that point, based on the Knott model.
I not only have considerable doubt about the first shot being that late, there is considerable evidence is against it. You are ignoring Phil Willis, as well as his daughter Linda. You are also ignoring Rosemary Willis' sharp turn at z204-206:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsF3w5Cx/z202-z206-RWillis.gif)
The evidence that the first bullet passed through JFK but did not strike JBC in the back is also consistent with both men having "radical reactions" at "exactly" the same moment. If you are referring to the red line trajectory, that is the path that a bullet would have to follow for JBC to be hit in the right armpit and exit under his right nipple at that point. That red line trajectory does not fit a shot from the SN, obviously. So the conclusion would have to be that JBC was not struck in the back at that point, based on the Knott model.
Question: What caused the "radical reaction" by JBC at the same moment as JFK's "radical reaction" to a bullet hitting him?Hearing the first shot. His reaction described in his WC testimony fits exactly what we see him do after z228. I have updated my earlier post to elaborate.
Don't we also see a physical reaction by JBC as the bullet hits him in the right shoulder like, as he said, a "fist"? If that wasn't a bullet then what caused it? I'm sure you answered this before but I can't find it offhand.I can't tell from just the film what he is reacting to. We have to follow the evidence and fit it to what is seen in the film. He said he turned "to look back over my right shoulder" and he does not begin preparing to do that until about z228 and he does not look "back over my right shoulder" until about z255. We can see him straining to look back in Altgens #6 at that time. We know from SA George Hickey that Hickey was turned forward watching JFK at the time of the second and third shots. Hickey is still turned rearward in Altgens #6 at z255. So, according to Hickey, the last two shots are after z255. That fits with what 80% of those who recalled a pattern to the shot sounds said.
The z-frame below is 223.The problem is that everyone assumed he had been struck by only one bullet. You are assuming that he would have felt the bullet hit his thigh. That is not only based on no evidence, it is contrary to the experience of people who have been shot (http://). Bullets do not hurt. Even JBC said it the shot through his chest did not hurt. But he felt the impact because it struck and damaged bone. The whole premise of the original SBT was that JBC did not feel being shot!! That was explained by John McCloy who had witnessed a soldier being shot in by a sniper standing beside him who had not felt the bullet.
It shows JBC as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
He looks calm and composed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyJzTbxy/z223good.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvLkfhSJ/z223goodcrop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
According to Andrew, Connally has been shot in the leg by this point.
In fact, according to Andrew, Connally was shot in the leg before he even went behind the Stemmons sign and emerges from behind it as if nothing has happened!
Unfortunately, this is the least crazy aspect of his Dead Theory.
The z-frame below is 223.
It shows JBC as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
He looks calm and composed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyJzTbxy/z223good.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvLkfhSJ/z223goodcrop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
According to Andrew, Connally has been shot in the leg by this point.
In fact, according to Andrew, Connally was shot in the leg before he even went behind the Stemmons sign and emerges from behind it as if nothing has happened!
Unfortunately, this is the least crazy aspect of his Dead Theory.
The problem is that everyone assumed he had been struck by only one bullet. You are assuming that he would have felt the bullet hit his thigh. That is not only based on no evidence, it is contrary to the experience of people who have been shot (http://). Bullets do not hurt. Even JBC said it the shot through his chest did not hurt. But he felt the impact because it struck and damaged bone. The whole premise of the original SBT was that JBC did not feel being shot!! That was explained by John McCloy who had witnessed a soldier being shot in by a sniper standing beside him who had not felt the bullet..
.Sorry to hear about your injury. When did you start feeling pain?
Bullets do not hurt.
Apparently you have never been shot with a bullet. I can assure you from first hand experience that they do hurt.
Hi Dan,
Absolutely correct, Dan!
I am amazed that anyone could actually believe that John Connally has been shot anywhere before he emerges from behind the sign. From the time Connally jerked his head from right to left to right , he remained in the same position until he re-emerges from behind the sign and shows the first sign of any change whatsoever to his face at frame 222 of the Zapruder film. Had Connally been struck at any point prior to frame 222-we would have seen. Not a shred of evidence to support such a theory that Connally was struck before he went behind the sign.
Sorry to hear about your injury. When did you start feeling pain?
We are talking about the first 4 seconds after being shot in the leg. The issue is not whether bullet wounds are painful - obviously any wound can be painful once the effects of the injury are realized. The issue is whether all bullets penetrating a thigh at an oblique angle at reduced speed will necessarily will cause immediate pain and, in particular, whether it necessarily caused immediate pain for JBC that he necessarily would have noticed. I rely on what people who have been shot say they felt in the first few seconds, and few report immediate pain:
At circa z142-z143, Rosemary Willis appears to possibly turn her head sharply to her right in the general direction of The Texas School Book Depository and the Presidential Limousine. If this is a rapid head turn in reaction to the first shot, it may give credence to Max Holland's theory of an early shot miss.She is running to keep abreast of the President's car. Her shoulders are square to the direction she is running so she has to turn her head to see the car. And because she has a hood over her head and because the head is connected to the body part which is facing forward, she can turn her head farther around than the hood. So what you see as she is running is consistent with Rosemary looking at the motorcade out of a partially turned hood.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID10963945669/Keyp0ok4bet0sqt/woods.gif)She stops running when she plants her right foot at z198-199. That fits a first shot just before z202 as her father testified and when JFK was between Linda Willis and the Stemmons sign, as Linda Willis testified.
(https://i.imgur.com/R7yu7nd.gif)
Rosemary Willis 1979 interview with David Lui:
See: https://archive.org/details/RosemaryWillisArticle/mode/2up
DAVID LUI: Why did you stop running?
Rosemary Willis 1979 interview with Marcia Smith-Durk:
The injury you describe is not at all similar to a bullet penetrating and destroying tissue, such as JBC’s thigh wound.The reason bullets are often not felt is because they destroy the nerve endings as they plow through the tissue. What you are describing is not that kind of injury as there was no damage except to the skin. Nerves would doing their job!
When did you start feeling pain?
I felt it the instant it hit me. It was a .177 caliber, 5.2 grain BB, at approximately 300 to 350 feet per second, which penetrated the skin of the palm of my hand but didn’t go much further. I was maybe 10 to 12 years old and should have known better than to let that happen.
I invite you to experiment for yourself. Use a piece of Kevlar or something to prevent penetration. Shoot yourself in the thigh with a .22 caliber pellet at the appropriate velocity. Multi-pump air guns make this feasible. Record your experiment on video. Then show us how you “didn’t feel” it.
The injury you describe is not at all similar to a bullet penetrating and destroying tissue, such as JBC’s thigh wound.The reason bullets are often not felt is because they destroy the nerve endings as they plow through the tissue. What you are describing is not that kind of injury as there was no damage except to the skin. Nerves would doing their job!
In any event it is a well documented fact - view the YouTube clip I posted - that people can be shot, particularly in an extremity or part of the body that does not immediately interfere with function, and not feel it and are not immediately aware they are shot.
Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.
I consider the wound I suffered to be more than skin-deep. In fact the projectile was removed by a doctor. He said that usually they would just leave the projectile in there for fear of doing more damage to 3the tissue during removal. But in this case he could see the BB and felt that it could be removed with minimal collateral damage. I still have a scar, and from time to time that hand gets painful. I cannot help but believe that the pain stems from that injury. JBC’s wound was described by the doctors as shallow also. So I think the two wounds are somewhat similar despite what you say. I am not arguing that it is impossible to get shot and not immediately feel it. There are many variables involved. However, I cannot believe that your idea that JBC was shot in the thigh first and didn’t feel it has any validity whatsoever.
Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.
There is really no evidence really that it occurred from the same bullet that passed through his wrist and reason to believe that it wasn't. The wound characteristics of the wrist and thigh are quite different. The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile. The wrist and cuff appeared to have been struck by an irregular shaped missile. The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second. The trajectory from JFK to the left thigh does not require any change in direction after passing through JFK.
Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.Yes, but again he said he felt the bullet hit him like a "doubled up fist" punching him in his back. That's not a pain reaction/feeling but it is a physical reaction that must have been immediate? I can't see how such a reaction could have been delayed? So, a delayed pain reaction is not only possible but based on his account what happened; but the physical reaction to the bullet was not delayed.
There is really no evidence really that it occurred from the same bullet that passed through his wrist and reason to believe that it wasn't. The wound characteristics of the wrist and thigh are quite different. The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile. The wrist and cuff appeared to have been struck by an irregular shaped missile. The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second. The trajectory from JFK to the left thigh does not require any change in direction after passing through JFK.
Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.
There is really no evidence really that it occurred from the same bullet that passed through his wrist and reason to believe that it wasn't. The wound characteristics of the wrist and thigh are quite different. The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile. The wrist and cuff appeared to have been struck by an irregular shaped missile. The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second. The trajectory from JFK to the left thigh does not require any change in direction after passing through JFK.
"The trajectory from JFK to the left thigh does not require any change in direction after passing through JFK."I said the trajectory would not require a change in direction. Whether there is a clear path from JFK's neck to thigh depends more on where it passed JBC's back as he is turned to the right, the correct downward angle and the height of the thigh. If the shot occurred with JBC turned to the right as he was before disappearing behind the Stemmons sign and if his knees were up, as they had to be:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/f8/31/6YRmIurW_o.jpg)
Apparently, in Mason's world, Connally's spine wouldn't defect the bullet on its way to the thigh.
The scenario shown here tried to incorporate everything Mason's Theory demanded, and to see what worked and what didn't. I even spread apart Connally's knees because Mason said Connally's nuts needed the space. Now one can move the left thigh over to be in line with the trajectory, but there remains the problem of getting the bullet pass Connally's torso.You just need to raise the thigh. With that you can see that it is pretty close even with your placement of JBC and trajectory. It grazes the left side of his back. But you are assuming some things about JBC's back and the path that are not quite correct. The path relative to the car is close to 21 degrees down at z193 (24.03 degrees down relative to the horizontal at z186 by the survey at CE884) even assuming that the downward slope of Elm is the full 3 degrees at that point. The straight line trajectory just clears the jump seat back and passes to the level of JBC's lower back. Also, because he has to move a bit forward of the seatback to turn like he is at z190-200, the path would pass his back farther forward, so at an even lower level. I admit that it would be close but the trajectory path can work without striking JBC's back. The wound in the thigh is perfectly consistent with an tumbling undamaged CE399 striking JBC in the left thigh down to the femur, leaving a small bit of lead in the femur and denting just the base as it hits the bone. Because it was tumbling, and because the wound on the thigh was very oblique, its rotational motion may have continued and caused it to continue forward and up toward the surface of the skin or, perhaps, completely out, which could explain why it did not remain in the thigh.
Yes, but again he said he felt the bullet hit him like a "doubled up fist" punching him in his back. That's not a pain reaction/feeling but it is a physical reaction that must have been immediate? I can't see how such a reaction could have been delayed? So, a delayed pain reaction is not only possible but based on his account what happened; but the physical reaction to the bullet was not delayed.JBC said nothing about feeling the wrist or thigh strike. He felt the bullet that hit him in the back and his reaction to that was immediate because he knew he had been hit. Still, he said he felt no pain from it (until he reached Parkland and tried to move, which is possibly when his lung collapsed).
And don't we see that punching at circa 223? Shoulder going forward, jacket bulging. Does your scenario have him hit 2-3 seconds earlier and this shoulder reaction at circa 223?His motions are perfectly consistent with him realizing that he had just heard a rifle shot and is preparing to turn around to see JFK, which he appears to then do. There is no time prior to that where he makes any attempt to look at JFK and JBC he tried to see him before he was hit in the back.
JBC from WC testimony:
Senator COOPER. Would you describe again the nature of the shock that you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet?
Governor CONNALLY. Senator, the best way I can describe it is to say that I would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade.
Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot?
Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade.
My point is that there is no evidence that he was not hit in the thigh earlier than the back strike. There can be no assurance that he would have felt it. Even if you can imagine CE399 deflecting over to the left thigh from the wrist, the characteristics of the wound are not consistent with having been made by the missile that caused the wrist wound:
Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.
Of course he didn’t feel it. Because it happened concurrently with the back/chest and wrist wounds. You have absolutely no evidence that the thigh wound happened well before that. Only your own ideas.
The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile.My point is that the damage to CE399 occurred after passing through JFK and was caused by striking the femur butt first. It is the SBT proponents who fantasize about a bullet striking JBC's rib in the back, butt-first, with enough force to break the rib near the spine, demolish 10 cm of rib, fracture the radius, deposit flakes of lead in the wrist, create an irregular tear in the sleeve and have only one impact point.
CE 399 is intact except for a few small flakes of the lead compound missing from the butt end and a flattening deformation on one side.
The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second.Right. I didn't realize that JBC was a eunuch.
Place JBC’s legs with the knees to his right (as they most likely were) and all of your objections disappear.
I said the trajectory would not require a change in direction. Whether there is a clear path from JFK's neck to thigh depends more on where it passed JBC's back as he is turned to the right, the correct downward angle and the height of the thigh. If the shot occurred with JBC turned to the right as he was before disappearing behind the Stemmons sign and if his knees were up, as they had to be:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kD3hdMY7/men-in-car-side-open.jpg)
With his legs not together and his left leg out to the left a bit, there could have been a clear path to the thigh. It is certainly within a range of possibilities and actually fits the model done by the Knott Laboratory.
You just need to raise the thigh. With that you can see that it is pretty close even with your placement of JBC and trajectory. It grazes the left side of his back. But you are assuming some things about JBC's back and the path that are not quite correct. The path relative to the car is close to 21 degrees down at z193 (24.03 degrees down relative to the horizontal at z186 by the survey at CE884) even assuming that the downward slope of Elm is the full 3 degrees at that point. The straight line trajectory just clears the jump seat back and passes to the level of JBC's lower back. Also, because he has to move a bit forward of the seatback to turn like he is at z190-200, the path would pass his back farther forward, so at an even lower level. I admit that it would be close but the trajectory path can work without striking JBC's back. The wound in the thigh is perfectly consistent with an tumbling undamaged CE399 striking JBC in the left thigh down to the femur, leaving a small bit of lead in the femur and denting just the base as it hits the bone. Because it was tumbling, and because the wound on the thigh was very oblique, its rotational motion may have continued and caused it to continue forward and up toward the surface of the skin or, perhaps, completely out, which could explain why it did not remain in the thigh.
My point is that there is no evidence that he was not hit in the thigh earlier than the back strike. There can be no assurance that he would have felt it. Even if you can imagine CE399 deflecting over to the left thigh from the wrist, the characteristics of the wound are not consistent with having been made by the missile that caused the wrist wound:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hs2cwJSj/JBC-shirt-cuff.jpg)
My point is that the damage to CE399 occurred after passing through JFK and was caused by striking the femur butt first. It is the SBT proponents who fantasize about a bullet striking JBC's rib in the back, butt-first, with enough force to break the rib near the spine, demolish 10 cm of rib, fracture the radius, deposit flakes of lead in the wrist, create an irregular tear in the sleeve and have only one impact point.
Right. I didn't realize that JBC was a eunuch.
That was Dr. Gregory's understanding of Dr. Shires' understanding. But Dr. Shires actually said what he understood and he said this:
My point is that the damage to CE399 occurred after passing through JFK and was caused by striking the femur butt first.
If you think that the wound penetrated deep enough to strike the femur bone, then your idea is completely at odds with what the doctors who attended to JBC testified to.
Senator COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you, Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was.
Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond that.
That was Dr. Gregory's understanding of Dr. Shires' understanding. But Dr. Shires actually said what he understood and he said this:6H106:
- Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm.
punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg
and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of
the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment embedded in the
femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity
was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect
from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the
skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential
wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had
subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.
Mr. SPECTER What size fragment was there in the Governor’s leg at that
time?
Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-my
and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after
the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?
Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two.
He wrote in his medical report, CE392, 17H20, that the missile was seen to course through the subcutaneous fat and into the vestus medialis (the inner upper thigh muscle) leaving a fragment embedded in the femur:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJmRhhnY/shires-report.jpg)
And here is the account of what he said 14 years later to the HSCA 7 HSCA 445:
- He was open-minded about the
possibility that the fragment could have been just under
the skin, but preferred to reiterate his initial impressions
that the fragment was in the thigh bone . Dr. Shires said
that while they explored the entire track of the missile,
they were not " . . .exploring it as a track . . ." ; rather they
were " . . .exploring the wound looking for a big missile
injury ." Dr . Shires said he found little hemorrhage, so
he felt it was likely that a high velocity missile did not
pass through the skin causing the wound".
So use a slope of 21 degrees relative to the car rail? OK. Can I also move Connally so he matches where he's at in the Zapruder film (ie:the Z193 I use in the graphic posted earlier).No. You can't use their positions at z223 either. My point is to show that based on the first shot being between z190 and z200, and taking into account the range of uncertainty over relative positions of the two men, that there was a plausible clear straight line path from JFK's throat exit to JBC's left thigh. So to demonstrate that I am batsh_t crazy, as you suggest, you have to show that for any position and posture of the men that is consistent with the photographic evidence at around z190-195 (I use z193 because it is the clearest) and within the range of uncertainty of the positions and posture of the two men, the trajectory from JFK's exit wound to JBC's left thigh cannot be direct ie. unobstructed by JBC's body parts that were clearly not struck.
The only means by which a metal fragment could have been embedded in the femur, as Dr. Shires always maintained, would be from being deposited there by the butt end of CE399. Dr. Gregory did not operate on the thigh wound. He simply viewed it and thought it looked like it was made by the butt end of an intact missile e.g. the butt end of CE399. Dr. Shires maintained that the bullet penetrated much deeper than you suggest ie. through the skin, fat layer and into the muscle and deposited a fragment in the femur. It was also a tangential wound on an oblique strike in the direction of the femur toward the knee. Pretty hard to fit that with a bullet coming from the right wrist.
It appears quite clear that, if there actually was anything in the femur, then it was only a very small fragment. No where does he indicate that anything the size of CE 399 penetrated deeper than what Dr. Gregory indicated.
You indicated that the damage to CE 399 was caused by it striking the femur. How it that possible? It didn’t even come close to striking the femur. This is what I am saying.[/list]
The only means by which a metal fragment could have been embedded in the femur, as Dr. Shires always maintained, would be from being deposited there by the butt end of CE399. Dr. Gregory did not operate on the thigh wound. He simply viewed it and thought it looked like it was made by the butt end of an intact missile e.g. the butt end of CE399. Dr. Shires maintained that the bullet penetrated much deeper than you suggest ie. through the skin, fat layer and into the muscle and deposited a fragment in the femur. It was also a tangential wound on an oblique strike in the direction of the femur toward the knee. Pretty hard to fit that with a bullet coming from the right wrist.
No. You can't use their positions at z223 either. My point is to show that based on the first shot being between z190 and z200, and taking into account the range of uncertainty over relative positions of the two men, that there was a plausible clear straight line path from JFK's throat exit to JBC's left thigh. So to demonstrate that I am batsh_t crazy, as you suggest, you have to show that for any position and posture of the men that is consistent with the photographic evidence at around z190-195 (I use z193 because it is the clearest) and within the range of uncertainty of the positions and posture of the two men, the trajectory from JFK's exit wound to JBC's left thigh cannot be direct ie. unobstructed by JBC's body parts that were clearly not struck.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/f8/31/6YRmIurW_o.jpg)You know I think very highly of your graphics skills, Jerry. But your measurements are not quite accurate. The key factor is the distance between the two men and that requires an accurate limo and placement of the seats. I put the distance between JFK's exit wound and JBC's spine about 6-8 inches longer than you have it (30-32 inches). I also have him a bit lower and a bit smaller head and possibly shoulders (40 cm between armpits) than you have shown. Your model has JBC too far back. He is behind the side window when in z193 his face is partly seen through the window. You also still have the downward angle wrong and his thigh too low.
I use Z193 also, because it's the clearest frame in the area. I moved Connally as far to the right as he could go (in defiance of where he is actually seen in Z193 but where you think he is), twisted his torso as much as humanly possible and nothing about your Theory remotely works.
Maybe you think there's some kind of Yoga gyrations and strange body contortions occurring out of sight. You think Connally's movements as he emerges from behind the sign and turns his body to face the side of the car are natural and merely out of concern for the President.
You keep asking for things, without addressing why Connally doesn't match his position in Z193, if he's supposedly over against the side of the car, per your Theory. There is little I can do for you until you address the problems with your Theory demonstrated in my graphic. Have you considered a life-size reconstruction of the limousine interior and posing live models?
You know I think very highly of your graphics skills, Jerry. But your measurements are not quite accurate. The key factor is the distance between the two men and that requires an accurate limo and placement of the seats. I put the distance between JFK's exit wound and JBC's spine about 6-8 inches longer than you have it (30-32 inches). I also have him a bit lower and a bit smaller head and possibly shoulders (40 cm between armpits) than you have shown. Your model has JBC too far back. He is behind the side window when in z193 his face is partly seen through the window. You also still have the downward angle wrong and his thigh too low.
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/77/33/urGlF61K_o.jpg) | (https://images2.imgbox.com/5b/b4/c9UBZ6LV_o.png) |
He is behind the side window when in z193 his face is partly seen through the window.
You also still have the downward angle wrong and his thigh too low.
I'm glad you admit what you've been doing to make your Theory "work".No. It is about what you need to do in order to justify calling it "bats_it crazy". (I would write it out in full but it comes out as batspombleprofglidnoctobuns).
(https://images2.imgbox.com/36/ce/AePgRhY1_o.jpg)A sight line is a sightline. The zoom lens changes perspective but not sightlines. Changing focal length does not unblock parts that were previously blocked.I duplicated your model setup with the longer distance between the two men and showed that you used false perspective to align Connally's face with the side window.
- Your distance between JFK and JBC is much greater (than what photos show)
- Connally a bit lower (than photos show him)
- A bit smaller head (more than a bit though; and not what photos show)
- Your model has JBC too far back (Your model has JFK so far back, he morphs into the seat-back)
(What photos show the President's seat-back as a thin slab, as in your model)?)When my model has Connally in the middle of the jump-seat, his head aligns with the side window as seen in Z193. But then the bullet goes to the right of Connally's spine.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/77/33/urGlF61K_o.jpg) (https://images2.imgbox.com/5b/b4/c9UBZ6LV_o.png)
Do you agree with a slope of 21 degrees relative to the car?
How much to raise his thigh (Good Grief) and what is that based on (other than it's necessary to meet your Theory's needs)?You might use this as a guide:
All,
I posted the wrong gif yesterday, and meant to post the one attached, which is much slower and makes it easier to watch Connally's double shoulder up and down movement.
It's very difficult to see it at regular speed. My apologies or posting the wrong gif. It's easiest to see if you watch his right shoulder.
(https://i.imgur.com/GiJqqpD.gif)
No. It is about what you need to do in order to justify calling it "bats_it crazy". (I would write it out in full but it comes out as batspombleprofglidnoctobuns).
A sight line is a sightline. The zoom lens changes perspective but not sightlines. Changing focal length does not unblock parts that were previously blocked.
In your zoom "correction" you have JFK too far to the right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqCsLxNN/JO-zoom-correction-wrong.jpg)
In z193 the sightline from Zapruder blocks up to the right edge of the left trunk hand-hold:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPHXKY3H/zf058.png)
Yes. You might use this as a guide:
(https://i.postimg.cc/s202wdd2/high-knees.jpg)
Thanks Steve, that’s a very clear sequence of frames and it shows the double shoulder movement as you describe. It also shows JFK’s concurrent reactions, JBC’s jacket front flipping out, and JBC’s right hand and arm moving rapidly upwards. All of this happens in a small fraction of a second. It sure looks to me like this is where both JFK and JBC were struck with CE 399.
My pleasure, Charles. I'm you are able to see the "hunching" of the shoulders. It was David Von Pein who first pointed this out, although I didn't know that he had until after I saw it, and I started a thread in a JFK group and included this gif a long while back, and he posted a note informing us that he had found this himself, and had also posted a gif of it.I don’t dispute that they are reacting at the same time to the same shot. I just disagree that the evidence supports it being the second shot.
I agree with you all the way that this is further proof of both men reacting simutaneously by the same bullet. Thanks so much!
I don’t dispute that they are reacting at the same time to the same shot. I just disagree that the evidence supports it being the second shot.
One of the three shots missed the target. We know that both men were struck where the film shows them being struck. Energing from behind the stemmons sign, and the fatal shot.
This leaves only one other shot, and that shot had to have been fired early, like around Zapruder frame 155/156.
A. Zapruder's camera jiggle proves that a shot was fired there.
B. The sudden head turns of both JFK and Governor Connally-both of whom were looking to their left. And one thing most people do not notice is that Connally was looking to his right
when Zapruder first began filming, turned to his left, then suddenlly jerked his head back to the right, where his head remained turned during the entire travel down Elm Street until he comes out from behind the sign, which is the first motion he made-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side rail of the car.
This is exactly what the Zapruder film shows. Three sudden reactions to three rifle shot sounds.
The physical evidence does not support three shots. The FBI only noted two of the three shells found in the SN exhibited the “chambering mark” from the rifle. CE 543 did not have the indentation. Even the unfired cartridge exhibited the chambering mark along with the next thirty shells, as was noted by Josiah Thompson, that had been fired in the rifle.
Zapruder--Reactions and Jiggle Analysis? Zapruder is a two shot witness.
One of the three shots missed the target.If that was the case then the SBT would be correct. But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?
We know that both men were struck where the film shows them being struck.
A. Zapruder's camera jiggle proves that a shot was fired there.There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.
B. The sudden head turns of both JFK and Governor Connally-both of whom were looking to their left. And one thing most people do not notice is that Connally was looking to his rightAnd Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.
when Zapruder first began filming, turned to his left, then suddenlly jerked his head back to the right, where his head remained turned during the entire travel down Elm Street until he comes out from behind the sign, which is the first motion he made-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side rail of the car.
If that was the case then the SBT would be correct. But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?
“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.
There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.
And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.
Wrong, the physical evidence DOES support 3 shots, but you go ahead and believe that there are not three distinct sudden physical motions by both men in the limousine. Your credibilty is a stake.
Zapruder's camera doesn't lie. Zapruder wasn't counting the shots as they went off, and within hours of the assassination, he didn't know for sure that he heard 2 or 3 shots. Watch his interview with Jay Watson, WFAA-TV. "...[T]hen I heard another shot or two..." after having earlier seen the "president slump to the side-like this". Zapruder was a two or three shot witness.
Watson was on the air continuously up to the time he interviewed Zapruder and we can see that he didn’t have any opportunity to meet with him. It is apparent from the beginning of the interview that Watson was meeting Zapruder for the first time, just after Zapruder had walked into the studio.
Jay Watson is the problem. He told Bill Newman how many shots there were according to him as well as doing the same with Zapruder. This is exactly what the WC and HSCA meant when they stated "The media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots".
If theres any agreement that Z224 was the 1st shot , then there was about 4.8 secs for 2nd shot head shot followed 1-2 sec later by a 3rd shot that missed high and struck the curb near Tague.The first shot after z186 (Betzner, motorcade witnesses, Woodward, etc) and just before z202 (Phil Willis), with the last at z312~z313, fits the shot pattern if the second shot was just before the head shot.
That would certainly preserve the 1….2..3 spacing as majority heard by witness.
The other alternative .. a missed 1st shot that precedes the Z224 2nd shot, is difficult to fit in between Betzner Z186 and Willis Z205 which is the approx Z195 -200 range, because that’s 1.5 sec between 1st and 2nd Z224 shot , therefore not likely both shots to be fired by the same MC rifle.
Just wanted to repost this excellent gif posted earlier by Steve:There is no question that conservation of momentum will apply. But the problem is that the impact is to JBC’s right armpit not his shoulder. And it is downward. There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.
(https://i.imgur.com/GiJqqpD.gif)
I've never noticed the upward double thrusting movement of JBC's shoulder before but it is clear as day.
I believe the 'doubling' of this movement reveals two very different reactions.
The first reaction is the instantaneous physical reaction when two objects collide. There is no delay in this reaction, it is instantaneous. This happens when the bullet physically collides with, and destroys, a relatively large section of JBC's rib. This collision causes JBC's torso to rotate, his right side being thrust forward and downwards causing his left shoulder to be thrust backwards and upwards.
There is no question that conservation of momentum will apply. But the problem is that the impact is to JBC’s right armpit not his shoulder. And it is downward. There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.
Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames
There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.Except that the right shoulder lifts and moves forward between z222 and z224:
::)
Oh boy, you really need to read the posts you are responding to.
Of course there is no way that a downward impact to the right side of JBC's torso will cause his right shoulder to lift.
The Z-film shows his LEFT SHOULDER lifting.
Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 framesYes, of course. The momentum is transferred from the bullet to the body while it passes thorugh the chest. That occurs almost "instantaneously" (about 1/1000th of a second to pass through JBC's torso).
Pure baloney.
The physical collision of two solids transfers momentum instantaneously.
Except that the right shoulder lifts and moves forward between z222 and z224:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpgzLGz9/JBC-222-to-225.gif)
Here is a longer clip:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjR4nSL/z222-to-z236-JBC.gif)
So if you think he was hit by a bullet in the right armpit, why would the right shoulder lift and turn forward? After that the left shoulder lifts but there is no reason to believe it is anything other than a voluntary movement as he prepares to turn around.
Yes, of course. The momentum is transferred from the bullet to the body while it passes thorugh the chest. That occurs almost "instantaneously" (about 1/1000th of a second to pass through JBC's torso).
The momentum transferred is the bullet mass x the change in velocity. But since the bullet also must have struck the right wrist with a speed of about 1000 fps in order to shatter the radius, the loss of speed in the torso is only about 500 fps or about 150 m/s. So it would be about 3 mm/second of movement. How far do you think that can move the body in 1/18th of a second? Answer: 3/18th of a mm. Do you think you can see that in the zfilm?
The movement of the shoulders is much greater than 3/18ths of a millimetre per frame. What this means is that the movement seen between z222 and z228 is not from a bullet but is a voluntary movement.
Except that the right shoulder lifts and moves forward between z222 and z224:Andrew: What caused his right shoulder to move while his left remained, to me, still? To me (confirmation bias/motivated reasoning and all that) his right shoulder goes downward first and then the left follows. They both then "shrug" up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpgzLGz9/JBC-222-to-225.gif)
Here is a longer clip:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjR4nSL/z222-to-z236-JBC.gif)
So if you think he was hit by a bullet in the right armpit, why would the right shoulder lift and turn forward? After that the left shoulder lifts but there is no reason to believe it is anything other than a voluntary movement as he prepares to turn around.
Yes, of course. The momentum is transferred from the bullet to the body while it passes thorugh the chest. That occurs almost "instantaneously" (about 1/1000th of a second to pass through JBC's torso).
The momentum transferred is the bullet mass x the change in velocity. But since the bullet also must have struck the right wrist with a speed of about 1000 fps in order to shatter the radius, the loss of speed in the torso is only about 500 fps or about 150 m/s. So it would be about 3 mm/second of movement. How far do you think that can move the body in 1/18th of a second? Answer: 3/18th of a mm. Do you think you can see that in the zfilm?
The movement of the shoulders is much greater than 3/18ths of a millimetre per frame. What this means is that the movement seen between z222 and z228 is not from a bullet but is a voluntary movement.
Which is more than enough time for a voluntary action as he prepares to turn around to check on JFK, as he said he did after the first shot. No need to assume he was hallucinating when he said he was not hit in the back on the first shot. No need to assume that JFK assumed the position seen in z224 and z225:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY8jfSck/JBC223226.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The difference between these two images is about 0.70 seconds.
Andrew: What caused his right shoulder to move while his left remained, to me, still? To me (confirmation bias/motivated reasoning and all that) his right shoulder goes downward first and then the left follows. They both then "shrug" up.According to the evidence this was the first shot which did not strike JBC in the right armpit. JBC said that he reacted to the first shot by turning around to look at JFK, realizing that he had just heard a rifle shot and feared an assassination was occurring. Nellie said that JFK reacted like we see him reacting after z224 BEFORE the second shot. So, according to the evidence, his right shoulder moves because he has to lean forward a bit and lift his right arm a bit so he can turn around to the right, which he does in the ensuing two seconds.
He specifically said that it felt like a "balled up fist" that first hit him. No pain at that time. Isn't that what we see here?No. Not according to the evidence. According to the evidence this was the first shot. He was hit like that on the second shot.
The sudden movement of JBC that begins at z271-272 and continues through z278 before he falls back. It is subtle but before he falls back onto Nellie he moves toward the front of the car without moving any part of his body to initiate this motion.
Can Andrew point out anything in the Z270-ish range of frames indicating
some kind of impact of a bullet hitting JC?
The sudden movement of JBC that begins at z271-272 and continues through z278 before he falls back. It is subtle but before he falls back onto Nellie he moves toward the front of the car without moving any part of his body to initiate this motion.
There is also a slight change in his hand position and the hat he is holding between z271 and z272.
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/ee/59/ZhSFMQp7_o.gif) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif) Mason's "sailing forward" cherry-pick GIF, with zoom-out. It's centered on the President which accentuates the "forward" movement of Connally, as well as the near-side of the parade bar, which is seen "moving" forward. | (https://images2.imgbox.com/1d/af/SMRzD833_o.gif) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif) Connally actually pivots in his seat towards Nellie and away from the camera. The angle of Connally's shirt collar, for example, becomes flatter as his torso pivots and reclines. At no point does Connally "sail forward". |
There is also the odd lifting of JFK’s hair on the right side of his head that George Hickey observed at the time of the second shot (z273-277).
Finally, there is Wm Greer’s first turn around at around z280 which he said he did immediately after -“almost simultaneous” with- the second shot.
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/14/1c/c6IJ91jb_o.jpg) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Animation_Alt-Wieg.gif) Hickey (on right edge of photo above) is looking backwards and his head is lower than the standing agents. Photo taken one second before Mason says Hickey turned fully around, scanned about and saw Kennedy's hair 'flew forward". |
The sudden movement of JBC that begins at z271-272 and continues through z278 before he falls back. It is subtle but before he falls back onto Nellie he moves toward the front of the car without moving any part of his body to initiate this motion.
There is also a slight change in his hand position and the hat he is holding between z271 and z272.
There is also the odd lifting of JFK’s hair on the right side of his head that George Hickey observed at the time of the second shot (z273-277).
Finally, there is Wm Greer’s first turn around at around z280 which he said he did immediately after -“almost simultaneous” with- the second shot.
Watson was on the air continuously up to the time he interviewed Zapruder and we can see that he didn’t have any opportunity to meet with him. It is apparent from the beginning of the interview that Watson was meeting Zapruder for the first time, just after Zapruder had walked into the studio.
Zapruder’s uncertainty about the number of shots may be because he was concentrating on watching the President and relying more on visual cues. He observed effects from only two shots.
Yes, that was going to be my followup question: How can JBC be hit in the back when he's clearly turned sideways at 271/272? Even before that he's turned away from the building.
The sudden movement of JBC that begins at z271-272 and continues through z278 before he falls back.
The position of JBC at 271-272 relative to the sniper’s nest window is not compatible with a bullet entering and exiting JBC’s back and chest respectively in the places that it actually did enter and exit. Plus, going from memory, JBC testified that he turned back to his right AFTER he was shot. How do you explain these two issues with your idea?
Yes, that was going to be my followup question: How can JBC be hit in the back when he's clearly turned sideways at 271/272? Even before that he's turned away from the building.
I used to be a conspiracy believer in large part because the lone assassin explanation made no sense. But it wasn't explained properly - they (I think it was primarily Groden's book) had the bullet zig zagging and I fell for it; *and* the alternate explanations for what happened didn't add up. Plus this enhanced Zapruder film has details we didn't have before. Any other explanation for what happened, for me, simply doesn't work.
Once one accepts the validity of the physical evidence, it should become clear that the only conclusion that fits the physical evidence is the single bullet conclusion. Therefore some of the witness accounts must simply be inaccurate. I believe that even JBC admits that he could be wrong (in his book).
Yes, that was going to be my followup question: How can JBC be hit in the back when he's clearly turned sideways at 271/272? Even before that he's turned away from the building.
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/31/dd/iDgr7p8D_o.jpg) Mason's own graphic. | (https://images2.imgbox.com/a5/2f/eOFaJyH2_o.png) Mason's original graphic (shown left) used an oblique Daliesque view in order to lessen the severity of the deflection angle. |
The sudden movement of JBC that begins at z271-272 and continues through z278 before he falls back.
The position of JBC at 271-272 relative to the sniper’s nest window is not compatible with a bullet entering and exiting JBC’s back and chest respectively in the places that it actually did enter and exit.
The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest. It went around the fifth rib until the last 10 cm, which it shattered, driving bone shards through the pleural lining and into the right lung. If you draw a path along the fifth rib from the very exposed right armpit that was facing the SN to just below the right nipple, it is almost a straight line - just a small deflection to the left. That deflection is consistent with the impact felt by JBC and with the force required to break the fifth rib close to the spine.
The bullet then exited the chest and struck the back of the radius well above the wrist joint in the middle of the french cuff, which happens to be pressed against the chest with the entry point on the cuff at the same point as the exit point (through the right jacket pocket).
In striking the back of the radius that is pronated so the back of the forearm is against the chest, the bullet fragmented and drove bone shards down into the wrist and made a jagged tear in the cuff. The bullet fragmented, as evidenced by the jagged cuff mark and the lead deposits as well as the large entry wound on the forearm.
Some fragments likely deflected up away from the point of contact and some possibly continued forward through the wrist striking the windshield. A fragment from the second shot struck the curb near Tague. That is consistent with several fragments, one of which went just over the windshield toward Tague and two of which did the damage to the windshield frame and glass. SA Greer (whose right ear was about 12 inches away) described a "concussion" from the second shot. That's not all, there is a change in the appearance of the wrist and hat which is consistent with a slight change in the position of the hat in the hand.
He does turn toward his left from that far right turn as he falls back on Nellie. He told the WC he intended to turn to the left when he was hit but wasn't sure how far around he was when hit. Nellie told DR. Shires that he was turned right when he was hit and did not mention turning forward or to the left before he was hit:
6 H 108:
Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned
to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened
to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot,
turned to his right, and then was hit.
I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers
turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot
about that.
Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?
Dr. SHIRES Oh, several days later.
Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes. 4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.
....
Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story
of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception
had been warm and that she was glad he couldn’t say that people of Texas
and in Dallas didn’t like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with
the way things had gone the whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred
was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot-he
remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and
his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was “They’re going to kill all
of us,” and that’s the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until
he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that,
and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.
Wow. You can’t even view a simple interview without attempting to twist it into this goofy story you have going on all the time. Actually, it is mind boggling unbelievable.Yes. I see how I twisted Zapruder's interview. I listened to it. Unbelievable! Who actually listens to evidence! How else could I have concluded that Zapruder was not sure whether he heard two or three shots? You, of course, don't think he was confused at all. You may want to review it again.
Wouldn’t it be better to just stick to proving you do not know anything about physics, firearms, witness testimony, sound analysis, and ballistics instead of branching out to proving you do not know anything about assessing the Jay Watson -Zapruder interview?Sorry. I thought most people understood grade 11 high school physics. Next time I post something that uses trigonometry or basic principles like conservation of momentum, should I post a link to a high school curriculum refresher for you?
It hit his fifth rib. Turn around in a chair twisting your shoulders around with your seat facing forward and you can see that your right armpit and right nipple are in an almost straight line to the rear if not the nipple a bit to the left of that line. The bullet does not go through the rib initially because it is an oblique strike and travels along it. But it puts force on the rib pushing it in before it plows through the thinner end of it.
The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest.
I believe that it would have if JBC was sitting sideways as your idea dictates. It appears to me (and I suspect most of us) that if the limo is essentially pointed and moving directly away from the sniper’s nest (it was), and JBC is sitting sideways relative to the long axis of the limo, then the bullet entering his back below his right armpit would tend to exit on his left side (not near his right nipple). This is why I (and I suspect most of us) say JBC was not in a position to have the wounds line up the way they did during the time your idea suggests.
You are avoiding the fact that JBC himself testified under oath that he turned to his right again after he was shot. Your idea has JBC being shot after he turned to his right for the last time. There is a conflict here that you are apparently trying to avoid. Here is a snip from “Passion For Truth” by Arlen Specter, page 72:I am not trying to avoid a conflict. I am trying to determine whether he turned left before he was hit. We all know that Connally later said he thought he had started his left turn and was hit facing forward after he had turned. I am just pointing out that he was not that clear initially. The last thought he had could well have been "I will turn left to see JFK" but he always admitted that he was not sure how far in that turn he had gone before he was hit.
At one point while viewing the film, Connally and his wife argued over whether the governor had fallen into his wife’s lap or she had pulled him into her lap. Connally insisted that he had fallen. Mrs. Connally insisted that she had pulled him. “No, Nellie,” “No, John,” they shot back and forth, several times. Eventually Mrs. Connally had the film halted and took Connally and Carr out to the hall for a conference. When they returned shortly, Nellie Connally and the governor were in agreement - on Mrs. Connally’s version.
Of course, I didn’t know what they said outside. But considering I was trying to gather a witness’s own account of the shooting, the Connally summit was not comforting. Later that afternoon, when the governor testified, he said, “So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to - just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap.” His wife’s words.
Yes. I see how I twisted Zapruder's interview. I listened to it. Unbelievable! Who actually listens to evidence! How else could I have concluded that Zapruder was not sure whether he heard two or three shots? You, of course, don't think he was confused at all. You may want to review it again.Sorry. I thought most people understood grade 11 high school physics. Next time I post something that uses trigonometry or basic principles like conservation of momentum, should I post a link to a high school curriculum refresher for you?
11th grade? You are being kind to yourself. You presented your understanding of physics as a bullet striking a hard object.But it doesn’t matter how hard the impact to determine the transfer of momentum. The only thing that matters is the bullet momentum before and the bullet momentum after. Since that loss of momentum is imparted to the body and to whatever it is connected to, the maximum momentum the body can gain is the amount lost by the bullet.
JBC said that gap was a very very short time. It is conceivable to me that he was already in the process of turning back to the front as he reappears from behind the sign in the Zapruder film.”Short” is relative. Four seconds is short too. The evidence that JFK began reacting to the first shot before the second shot occurred is inconsistent with what you are suggesting.
Zapruder is sitting in a chair and Watson is talking and from that you know everything he has heard after entering into the building and standing then sitting in the studio? Did you miss the part where Watson could not wait to tell him there were three shots. Did you also imagine hearing Zapruder mention a shot halfway between the throat shot and the head shot?You need to watch the whole continuous feed for the hour or so beforehand. Watson is on the air continuously. Your allegation was that he caused Zapruder’s confusion. But we can see that Watson did not say anything to him in the hour prior to beginning the interview. He did not mention 3 shots until after Zapruder said:
JBC, Nellie, and Jackie all mention the first shot hit JBC. Are you still struggling with the basics?I am struggling with that. But it is because I am struggling to understand what universe you are in.
”Short” is relative. Four seconds is short too. The evidence that JFK began reacting to the first shot before the second shot occurred is inconsistent with what you are suggesting.
I don’t see how it is plausible that Zapruders statement?? I have never, ever suggested that any shot missed everyone. The evidence is rather strong and uncontradicted that JFK reacted to the first shot as we see when he emerges from behind the sign. I am suggesting that the trajectory as well as the evidence of the Connallys and others establish that the first shot did not strike JBC in the back/armpit. All I am suggesting is that the only wound of JBC that fits being made by CE399 (which must have been the bullet through JFK’s neck) is the thigh wound. And the trajectory through JFK at z190-195 directly to JBC’s left thigh seems to work.
“ he heard a shot and then he saw JFK slump and then heard another shot or 2” could support Andrews proposed sequence of a 1st shot at Z195-200 that missed
Seems to me that Zapruder is backing up Betzner and Willis as well as Harold Normans perception of a 1st shot that was heard , followed by JFK slumping and only AFTER that slumping then was heard a 2nd and or 3rd shot.Yes, he does.
Four seconds is short too.Yet in that “very, very brief span of time” he had enough time to recognize it as a rifle shot, conclude that an assassination was unfolding, turn around in his jump seat to attempt to see JFK, and then decide to turn back the other way. Nellie even said he uttered “oh, no, no” before the second shot.
I understand what you are saying. But in no way (in this context) is four seconds “a very, very short amount of time”.
Yet in that “very, very brief span of time” he had enough time to recognize it as a rifle shot, conclude that an assassination was unfolding, turn around in his jump seat to attempt to see JFK, and then decide to turn back the other way. Nellie even said he uttered “oh, no, no” before the second shot.
But we don’t have to interpret JBC’s statement. Many others did that. The interval between the last two was about half that of the interval between 1 and 2. With Oswald shooting, that requires about 4 seconds between 1 and 2.
Besides, if you think there was an early first shot miss, you don’t accept that his “very, very brief span of time” means what you are suggesting.
You need to watch the whole continuous feed for the hour or so beforehand. Watson is on the air continuously. Your allegation was that he caused Zapruder’s confusion. But we can see that Watson did not say anything to him in the hour prior to beginning the interview. He did not mention 3 shots until after Zapruder said:
“And as I was shooting—as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn; it was about a half-way down there—I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two—I couldn't say [whether] it was one or two—and I saw his head practically open up [places fingers of right hand to right side of head in a narrow cone, over his right ear], all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.”
I am struggling with that. But it is because I am struggling to understand what universe you are in.
But it doesn’t matter how hard the impact to determine the transfer of momentum. The only thing that matters is the bullet momentum before and the bullet momentum after. Since that loss of momentum is imparted to the body and to whatever it is connected to, the maximum momentum the body can gain is the amount lost by the bullet.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/88/88/ehlEY5s4_o.jpg)Thanks Jerry. Nicely done. I wasn’t aware of any service available to get this kind of thing done, unless you are offering.
I'm modelling Mason's Theory (he's too cheap to pay to see it done) with his requirements for a Z200s First Shot stated earlier in this thread (Z193, being the clearest in that area, is the frame modeled). This is a draft.
Ok , sorry about the misunderstanding on my part about Andrews Z195-200 shot missing.
So it’s about Z200 is the 1st shot that hits only JFK in his back and then exits his throat?
Then about 70 frames (3.5 seconds ) later , a 2nd shot approx at Z270 ish which hits only JC.
Then there’s the 3rd shot Z313 which is 43 frames (about 2.5 secs) after Z270.
That’s a rather amazing shot at Z313 at a round 8” diameter target , moving away slightly laterally at about 8mph , at a range of about 90 yards in just 2.5 secs after the 2nd shot and accomplished using only the iron sights of the bolt action MC rifle which were fixed zero at 200 meters.The evidence is that shots were fired from the SN that quickly and the damage occurred.
Too bad no one has ever replicated this proposed sequence and timing of shots and scored the head shot .
Thanks Jerry. Nicely done. I wasn’t aware of any service available to get this kind of thing done, unless you are offering.
Does that model of JC , that Jerry just posted here, represent fairly accurately the position of JC at Z270 as proposed by Andrew?No. It is showing JBC's position at the time of the first shot which I put around z190-195, say z193.
If Jerry is willing, perhaps an adjusted model with both of JCs legs turned towards the right side door and the right hand holding hat over the left leg will solve the hat problem.JBC had turned around on previous occasions and knew that JFK was on the far right side of the back seat. He wasn't expecting him to be as far left as he was. That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right. If you sit on a thick cushion on the floor and limit the sideways position of your right leg (in JBC's case, by a car door) where do you put your left leg?:
No. It is showing JBC's position at the time of the first shot which I put around z190-195, say z193.
JBC had turned around on previous occasions and knew that JFK was on the far right side of the back seat. He wasn't expecting him to be as far left as he was. That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right. If you sit on a thick cushion on the floor and limit the sideways position of your right leg (in JBC's case, by a car door) where do you put your left leg?:
The issue is whether a shot through JFK could have passed directly to JBC’s thigh. I am suggesting that it did because there is consistent evidence that it occurred on the first shot and that this occurred between z190 and z200, and very strong evidence that JBC was not hit in the back by it. Since we know that it exited JFK’s throat and would have continued in a straight line and did not hit the car, and since the thigh wound is consistent with being caused by a strike from the butt end of CE399, I am suggesting that it must have struck JBC’s thigh. That means his left knee was out a bit to the left side.
That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.
Actually JBC told us why he turned to the right. It is because he instinctively turned towards the direction that he heard the shot come from (over his right shoulder).
Also, if you look at the various photos that show JBC’s positions throughout the motorcade, he is almost always facing partially towards the right. In order for those positions to be comfortable for the extended time frame of the motorcade, we might expect that JBC would also have his legs pointed partially towards the right. It might be that he needed to shift his position in the seat a bit towards the center of the limo in order to have more leg room on his right to do this. If so, this type of position would be compatible with the SBT.