11/23/63
J. Edgar Hoover: I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case -
this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they
have at the present time is not very, very strong. We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment
of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We
had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.
J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on
the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have
what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints
... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago
on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the
President of the United States.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Now, who is A. Hidell?
J. Edgar Hoover: A. Hidell is an alias that this man has used on other occasions, and according to the information we have from the
house in which he was living - his mother - he kept a rifle like this wrapped up in a blanket which he kept in the house. On the
morning that this incident occurred down there - yesterday - the man who drove him to the building where they work, the building from
where the shots came, said that he had a package wrapped up in paper... But the important thing at the time is that the location of
the purchase of the gun by a money order apparently to the Klein Gun Company in Chicago - we were able to establish that last night.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man
who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his
appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a
letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of
his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI. Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the
Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation. No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we
know what they receive... The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this
man who was at the... Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything,
but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
Below is a transcript from a phone call between J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon B. Johnson November 23 1963, less than 24 hours after JFK was assassinated.
I don't want to debate whether both men could have possibly known all this info in that short a time period, because obviously they did. LNers will never be persuaded that LHO wasn't a lone nut anyway.
However, if you lean towards a conspiracy and Oswald was the patsy, then this transcript demonstrates how far up the ladder it went. Top rung. No wonder Johnson never appointed a VP.
That's a lot to know and do less than a day later. WTF?
“We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they have at the present time is not very, very strong”
It’s fascinating if only for the fact that the case against Oswald appeared to be weak according to Hoover before Lee was killed.
Once he was killed they were able to manufacture and manipulate the evidence because they knew there would be no legal scrutiny of the evidence…
What would the narrative be for the FBI framing Oswald but then calling the president to tell him the evidence against him "at the present time" is not strong?
I don't see any evidence discussed here that would not have been known to the FBI by Nov. 23. What exactly are you referencing? And we are to somehow conclude from this call that Hoover and LBJ were in on the plot and knew Oswald didn't do it, but spent their time in a private phone call discussing the evidence they knew was faked? HA HA HA. Why would they be doing that instead of conferring about the status of the conspiracy?
Below is a transcript from a phone call between J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon B. Johnson November 23 1963, less than 24 hours after JFK was assassinated.
I don't want to debate whether both men could have possibly known all this info in that short a time period, because obviously they did. LNers will never be persuaded that LHO wasn't a lone nut anyway.
However, if you lean towards a conspiracy and Oswald was the patsy, then this transcript demonstrates how far up the ladder it went. Top rung. No wonder Johnson never appointed a VP.
That's a lot to know and do less than a day later. WTF?
For sure Hoover knew way too much about Oswald a mere day later. His crackerjack team actually traced the rifle to imposter Oswald at the Soviet Embassy?? Are you serial? If this was a conspiracy, which it was, then Hoover would have to be in on it. The FBI controlled the SS and the DPD, who were instrumental in carrying out the Big Event. The last piece of the puzzle was Johnson, who appeared to be at the very least, complicit. The only thing Johnson was ever focused on was getting Oswald's confession. Not for 1 second did he concern himself that the Rooskies might have just assassinated the POTUS. Especially, when he got sworn in as POTUS on Air Force One, where I swear to god, he had a copy of the Oath of Office in his pocket, instead of the nuclear football. Nixon said it best. They were all animals, capable of anything.
One revealing part of the full transcript is where Hoover tells LBJ that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City.
Below is a transcript from a phone call between J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon B. Johnson November 23 1963, less than 24 hours after JFK was assassinated.What you're saying is that if we assume, a priori, that there was a conspiracy, then this explains something about the conspiracy that's we are assuming.
I don't want to debate whether both men could have possibly known all this info in that short a time period, because obviously they did. LNers will never be persuaded that LHO wasn't a lone nut anyway.
However, if you lean towards a conspiracy and Oswald was the patsy, then this transcript demonstrates how far up the ladder it went. Top rung. No wonder Johnson never appointed a VP.
That's a lot to know and do less than a day later. WTF?There's nothing surprising about it. The assassination quickly put in motion the combined investigative capabilities of the Dallas Police, Dallas County Sherriff's Department, FBI, Secret Service, USPS Postal Inspectors, CIA, and probably a few other agencies that I didn't mention. A small army of investigators can cover a lot territory in a small amount of time.
Why would Hoover and LBJ even be having such a conversation if they were behind the assassination as alleged? They would already know the facts if that were the case. Wouldn't they just be congratulating each other on a private call? The narrative makes no sense that this conversation somehow supports a conspiracy. Hoover is simply providing the president with the information that he has at the very initial stage of the investigation. Some of which was correct and some of which would prove incorrect. If anything, this conversation demonstrates that Hoover had an open mind that others might be involved and did not focus just on Oswald. Not that he was behind the assassination and/or some type of framing of Oswald.
What you're saying is that if we assume, a priori, that there was a conspiracy, then this explains something about the conspiracy that's we are assuming.
There's nothing surprising about it. The assassination quickly put in motion the combined investigative capabilities of the Dallas Police, Dallas County Sherriff's Department, FBI, Secret Service, USPS Postal Inspectors, CIA, and probably a few other agencies that I didn't mention. A small army of investigators can cover a lot territory in a small amount of time.
Sure, but aren't you surprised that the Keystone Cops (DPD) managed to identify and capture Oswald within an hour after assassinating the POTUS. There were many records broken that day and Hoover and Johnson even appeared to be clairvoyant. Otherwise, they had surprisingly detailed knowledge of Oswald, who they were trying to link to the Kremlin as part of the coup, but they didn't seem at all concerned it might have been a precursor to WW3. But that's just my take because I'm convinced this was a conspiracy for many reasons. When I assume that, it allows me to flesh out motive, etc. and then everything fits. The magic bullet goes away. Oswald's lack of prints on everything. The backyard photos. Oswald's murder. The autopsy anomalies. The behavior of the SS, FBI and DPD.
So many false premises and grafting of your biased subjective opinions onto the facts to reach a desired outcome. The surprising thing here is not that Oswald was arrested in an hour, but that Oswald was not arrested immediately in the building. He was very lucky to have escaped at all. He had no means of transportation except access to public buses and with little money. He was unlucky to have encountered Tippit. His arrest was a result of the circumstances that played out in the aftermath of the assassination. They are entirely indicative and consistent with Oswald's guilt including flight from the crime scene, murdering a police officer, and resisting arrest. To suggest that these circumstances are somehow indicative of innocence is delusional. And, again, neither Hoover nor LBJ discussed anything that would not have been known to them at the time. You keep repeating that false claim.
One revealing part of the full transcript is where Hoover tells LBJ that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City.
Sure, but aren't you surprised that the Keystone Cops (DPD) managed to identify and capture Oswald within an hour after assassinating the POTUS. There were many records broken that day and Hoover and Johnson even appeared to be clairvoyant. Otherwise, they had surprisingly detailed knowledge of Oswald, who they were trying to link to the Kremlin as part of the coup, but they didn't seem at all concerned it might have been a precursor to WW3. But that's just my take because I'm convinced this was a conspiracy for many reasons. When I assume that, it allows me to flesh out motive, etc. and then everything fits. The magic bullet goes away. Oswald's lack of prints on everything. The backyard photos. Oswald's murder. The autopsy anomalies. The behavior of the SS, FBI and DPD.Ah! You get shown that your suspiciously amazing turn of events betrayed by the LBJ/Hoover call is neither suspicious or amazing when visited by even a few seconds of thought. Your response is to change the subject and break stride into a Gish Gallop like a started squid jetting off behind a cloud of obscuring ink.
Regarding the DPD, in what universe does a lead investigator to the assassination of the POTUS, Captain Will Fritz, notice 3 spent hulls on the floor of the sniper's nest, walks up to them, bends over and picks them up with his bare hands and places them in his pocket, then later tosses them on the floor for a photo-op? Maybe in your universe, not mine.
Regarding the SS, in what universe does the driver of the limo, Greer, hear gunshots striking the limo and slow it down to a near stop, turns around to look at JFK until he sees his head explode, then steps on the gas and hightails it outta Dodge? Was that in the SS manual?
Regarding the FBI, Hoover was the de-facto boss of the Mafia at the time and James Angleton possessed a very salacious photo of Hoover that brought him onboard.
Regarding the CIA, James Angleton was acting director of the CIA after Allen Dulles got fired by JFK. He was Dulles' right hand man and fellow Nazi who plucked Oswald from the CIA's fake defector program to be the patsy in the coup. The CIA assigned George de Mohrenschildt to be Oswald's handler and he was a proven Nazi. Dulles was the highest ranking Nazi sleeper cell and after getting fired he was not about to go quietly into the night. He was forced to make his move, which was to assassinate JFK and link it to the Kremlin to provoke WW3. The 4th Reich would then pick up the pieces in the aftermath. When you don't have nukes at your dispose, the 4th Reich had to take over from the inside using sleeper cells thru coup d'états and establishing autocracies.
The irony here is that what's left of the 4th Reich is the far right, which includes Putin and Trump, which is far more plausible than Oswald being a lone nut, IMHO.
Ah! You get shown that your suspiciously amazing turn of events betrayed by the LBJ/Hoover call is neither suspicious or amazing when visited by even a few seconds of thought. Your response is to change the subject and break stride into a Gish Gallop like a started squid jetting off behind a cloud of obscuring ink.
Who showed me what? Squid analogies? Well played!How soon you forget.
Add to the small army of investigators the rather large world press. Just one example is the reporter from a Ft. Worth newspaper who remembered Oswald’s name as soon as he heard it. This is because he had written about LHO’s trip to Russia a few years earlier. And that is one reason that it became known very early in the investigation that LHO had lived in Russia. I believe it was Hugh Aynesworth of the Dallas Morning News who helped discover LHO’s taxi ride to the neighborhood of his rooming house. I am sure there are more examples out there. The point is that the press was going after a lot of the leads immediately after the assassination.Yes, Aynesworth said he got a phone call from a (unnamed) source who had heard that Whaley had given Oswald a ride. So he spent a couple of days finding him (Whaley's wife was hospitalized and he couldn't find him at his home). It's called reporting. To the conspiracy mindset this is all evidence of intrigue, of someone controlling things behind the scenes.
So many false premises and grafting of your biased subjective opinions onto the facts to reach a desired outcome. The surprising thing here is not that Oswald was arrested in an hour, but that Oswald was not arrested immediately in the building. He was very lucky to have escaped at all. He had no means of transportation except access to public buses and with little money. He was unlucky to have encountered Tippit. His arrest was a result of the circumstances that played out in the aftermath of the assassination. They are entirely indicative and consistent with Oswald's guilt including flight from the crime scene, murdering a police officer, and resisting arrest. To suggest that these circumstances are somehow indicative of innocence is delusional. And, again, neither Hoover nor LBJ discussed anything that would not have been known to them at the time. You keep repeating that false claim.All Oswald had to do was go into the shoe store. Buy a pair of shoes. He had about $15 which is about $100 today. Let the police go by and then walk out. He panicked instead.
How soon you forget.
In the OP, you said:
if you lean towards a conspiracy and Oswald was the patsy, then this transcript demonstrates how far up the ladder it went.
I pointed out that this statement is just a load of circular reasoning.
And you expressed incredulity:
That's a lot to know and do less than a day later. WTF?
Which isn't that hard to believe when you realize that, by the time of the call, a small army of investigators had been employed in the investigation. The FBI, Secret Service, Dallas Police, Dallas County Sherriffs Department, USPS, and any number of other agencies had assigned every investigator that they could to the case.
Your response was to change the subject by launching into a classic Gish Gallop, and when called out on that, you fell back on some cheese-boy sarcasm. And here we are.
The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination - by Mae BrussellRegarding J. Edgar Hoover and Interpol
FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover "mistrusted and disliked all three Kennedy brothers. President Johnson and Hoover had mutual fear and hatred for the Kennedys," wrote the late William Sullivan, for many years an assistant FBI director. Hoover hated Robert Kennedy, who as Attorney General was his boss, and feared John. In turn the President distrusted Allen Dulles, easing him out as CIA director after the 1961 Bay of Pigs debacle. When JFK moved to lower the oil depletion allowance, he incurred the displeasure of John McCloy, whose clients' profits would be trimmed.
Hoover, Dulles and McCloy did not belong to the Kennedy fan club. When the president was shot, Hoover controlled the field investigation, and Dulles and McCloy helped mold the final verdict of the Warren Commission.
As America stood on the threshold of World War II Hoover continued a friendly relationship with the nazis who dominated Interpol, the Berlin-based international secret police. He had been obsessed with the "Red menace" since 1919 when he became head of the Bureau's General Intelligence Division. Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Arthur Nebe and other fanatical nazis were active in Interpol. Even after Hitler occupied Czechoslovakia, Hoover ignored all evidence of nazi death squads and atrocities and cooperated with the boys in Berlin. As France fell, Hoover exchanged lists of wanted criminals, enclosing autographed photographs of himself. It was not until three days before Pearl Harbor that he called a halt -- and then only because he feared his image might be tarnished.
When the war had been imminent Roosevelt charged Hoover with ferreting out nazi spies in the Western Hemisphere. Two escaped his notice. As early as 1933 Gestapo agent Dr. Hermann Friedrick Erben recruited Errol Flynn as an intelligence source. Erben went on to become a naturalized American citizen, but never abandoned his loyalty to Hitler. Flynn went on to make "Santa Fe Trail" in 1940, co-starring with Ronald Reagan, and the two paired up for "Desperate Journey" in 1942.
George de Mohrenschildt, the Oswalds' genial host in Dallas, was tagged by Hoover's FBI as a nazi spy during World War II. G-men noted that his cousin, Baron Maydell, had nazi ties, and that his uncle distributed pro-nazi films. Their suspicions were confirmed when they trailed de Mohrenschildt from New York to Corpus Christi. On October 8, 1942 a "lookout" was placed in his file in case he applied for another passport.
J. Edgar Hoover kept alive the Nazi intelligence network INTERPOL.
The parts left out of J. Edgar Hoover's investigation before and after Kennedy was killed were the nazi associations de Mohrenschildt had while working for U.S. intelligence.
George's cousin, the movie producer Baron Constantine Maydell, was one of the top German Abwehr agents in North America. Reinhard von Gehlen recruited Maydell in the post-war era to be in charge of the CIA's Russian emigre programs.
Gehlen recruited veterans of Maydell's Abwehr Group to work with East European emigre organizations inside the U.S.
Part of Lee and Marina's red carpet treatment in the U.S. started with their arrival from the USSR. Spas T. Raigkin was the ex-Secretary General of a group such as Maydell's. The AFABN, the American Friends of the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations, with CIA funding, assisted Lee and Marina to get settled.
J. Edgar Hoover was trained only to see if there were Communists around ...the red menace. The Abwehr, Reinhard Gehlen and Maydell were overlooked by the FBI.
After the war Interpol ostensibly cleaned up its act, moved to Paris and installed the prestigious Hoover as vice president. Yet Interpol steadfastly refused to hunt for nazi war criminals, contending it was independent of politics. The excuse appeared a bit lame when, in the 1970s, former SS officer Paul Dickopf became president.
The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination - by Mae Brussell
When George de Mohrenschildt was busy introducing Lee and Marina to the Dallas-Ft. Worth White Russian displaced Czarists, he managed to keep the social level equal with his American contacts.
One casual dinner in the company of Michael and Ruth Paine, and that was enough meeting to set the Oswalds’ course. George and Jeane didn't have to meet with them again.
Ruth Paine would provide housing for Marina while Lee went to New Orleans. A few weeks later, she drove Marina to join Lee. After summer vacation at Wood's Hole, Mass., Ruth returned and brought Marina to her home in Irving, Texas, while Lee was on the bus to Mexico with Albert Osborne/John Bowen, and four other Solidarists from the Russian network.
After Kennedy was murdered, the Dallas police rushed to the Paine's home. From that garage and elsewhere, via the Paines, came most of the incriminating evidence against Oswald.
The alleged murder weapon never could be proven by the Warren Commission as ever having come from their garage.
The cropped photo that Life printed with Oswald holding a rifle came from a box removed from the garage, taken to the police department, then returned the next day, with nobody present to indicate where it came from.
Accessory after the fact, the letter was delivered to Marina in December undated and unsigned, to cover up General Walker's anxiety to blame a "Communist," Lee, for shooting at him in April and came from Ruth to Marina. It wasn't in the home before then. The Warren Commission required planted evidence sometimes in order to divert from Lee Oswald's links to the Defense Department, assisted by Ruth and Michael Paine.
Michael Paine's occupation at Bell Aircraft is the Defense Department. This job requires security clearances, so what would the unlikely Oswalds be doing in his home? Oswald, the "defector?"
Paine's boss at Bell Aircraft as Director of Research and Development, was none other than the noterious war criminal General Walter Dornberger.
Dornberger was supposed to be hanged at Nuremburg for his war crimes, slave labor and mass murders.
The British warned the U.S. not to let him live because even after the war he was conniving for another one. As stated, "Dornberger is a menace of the first order who is untrustworthy. His attitude will turn ally against ally and he would become a source of irritation and future unrest." (Project Paperclip. Clarence Lasby.)
The very first call to authorities after the gun went off on November 22, 1963, was from an employee at Bell Helicopter who suggested "Oswald did it." Police never located the source of both Oswald addresses that day.
Michael Paine took Lee to a meeting with General Edwin Walker shortly before the assassination. Soon Oswald would be charged with having shot Walker in April, and Walker would be calling his nazi cronies in Germany 24 hours after JFK was killed telling them he finally solved "who shot through his window" seven months earlier: the same Oswald.
Who were the Paines? To believe the Warren Commission and the CIA staff of lawyers, they were Mr. and Mrs. Good Neighbor, all heart, altruistic. Ruth simply wanted to learn more Russian from a native. For that price, she housed Marina, a two-year-old daughter, a new infant, with all the fuss and mess of three extras in a tiny house.
Michael Paine was a descendant of the Cabots on both sides. His cousin Thomas Dudley Cabot, former president of United Fruit, had offered their Gibraltar Steamship as a cover for the CIA during the Bay of Pigs. Another cousin was Alexander Cochrane Forbes, a director of United Fruit and trustee of Cabot, Cabot, and Forbes.
Both Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy were part of the United Fruit team. The Paine family had links with circles of the OSS and the CIA.
Ruth Hyde Paine maintained close ties with the Forbes families. Peter Dale Scott investigated the Paines, "the patrician Paine and Forbes families." A far cry from anybody's neighbor.
Michael's education came as a tradition, third generation physicist at Harvard before working for Bell Helicopter.
The British were correct on the Dornberger evaluation.
Another clue to Albert Speer, the Reichmaster for Munitions and War Production, and General Dornberger, is their meeting as early as April, 1943.
When it was obvious to Hitler they would be losing the war against the USSR, all top Nazis made detailed plans for two years on how to proceed next.
Speer met with Dornberger, at Peenemunde, the missile and rocket factory run with Werner Von Braun, and instructed him in "the dispersion of functions throughout the Reich."
Translated, that meant get ready to come to the U.S.
Relax Squidly. Unlike you, I know the difference between proof and evidence. We are all just spit-balling here except for your unsupported naïve claim:If I didn't "follow your argument," it's because you haven't actually made one. So far, you've managed a tautology, an unsupported assertion dressed up as a question, and a non sequitur. Your "examples" don't address or rebut the point I made about the amount of manpower pressed into service in the investigation.
"Which isn't that hard to believe when you realize that, by the time of the call, a small army of investigators had been employed in the investigation. The FBI, Secret Service, Dallas Police, Dallas County Sherriffs Department, USPS, and any number of other agencies had assigned every investigator that they could to the case."
I gave you examples of how incompetent and corrupt the investigators were, which rationalized my doubt they were able to apprehend Oswald within an hour and know so much about him within 24 hrs. Then you opined that it wasn't that hard for you to believe, which you thought somehow scored you some points and destroyed my argument. HA! You didn't even follow my argument.
Funny how a LNer tells me that I'm using circular reasoning, yet has no concept of logical fallacy. But I get it, you LNers have wasted years defending the conspirators to advance your delusional LN theory. In for a penny I suppose. I'm sure the conspirators appreciate it, if any are still alive. Sucker.
If I didn't "follow your argument," it's because you haven't actually made one. So far, you've managed a tautology, an unsupported assertion dressed up as a question, and a non sequitur. Your "examples" don't address or rebut the point I made about the amount of manpower pressed into service in the investigation.
However, your continuing fascination with finding "secret Nazi's" betrays the idols that you pray to. And that your information is carved from the loose, weathered boards you've been prying off of shipwrecks dotting the shores of the Crackpot archipelago.
If I didn't "follow your argument," it's because you haven't actually made one. So far, you've managed a tautology, an unsupported assertion dressed up as a question, and a non sequitur. Your "examples" don't address or rebut the point I made about the amount of manpower pressed into service in the investigation.After these fascists killed JFK they put into power LBJ (who was one of them too). LBJ then proceeded to use the assassination, to cite it, to pass civil rights. Yes, the fascists who wanted to stop the traitor Kennedy because of his liberal policies then saw LBJ *use* their act to end racial fascism. Oops. LBJ then ended the covert war on Cuba, the fascist program to kill Castro; which was pushed by the Kennedys anyway and with JFK dead RFK was no longer interested in pushing it. In any case, it ended with JFK's death; the one the fascists did. Double oops. But one more: then the fascists who killed JFK staged a fake investigation that *cleared* Castro. Yes, the fascists who wanted war to overthrow Castro cleared him of any involvement and thus a cause for his removal. Triple oops.
However, your continuing fascination with finding "secret Nazi's" betrays the idols that you pray to. And that your information is carved from the loose, weathered boards you've been prying off of shipwrecks dotting the shores of the Crackpot archipelago.
After these fascists killed JFK they put into power LBJ (who was one of them too). LBJ then proceeded to use the assassination, to cite it, to pass civil rights. Yes, the fascists who wanted to stop the traitor Kennedy because of his liberal policies then saw LBJ *use* their act to end racial fascism. Oops. LBJ then ended the covert war on Cuba, the fascist program to kill Castro; which was pushed by the Kennedys anyway and with JFK dead RFK was no longer interested in pushing it. In any case, it ended with JFK's death; the one the fascists did. Double oops. But one more: then the fascists who killed JFK staged a fake investigation that *cleared* Castro. Yes, the fascists who wanted war to overthrow Castro cleared him of any involvement and thus a cause for his removal. Triple oops.
But one more again (okay, it's really two more) then after being elected, LBJ proceeded to pass the most liberal/progressive policies in US history. Yes, the fascist LBJ and the fascists who put him into power then enacted the most anti-fascist set of policies in American history. Oops again.
In conspiracy world this all makes sense. In this one, not so much.
Have you ever posted anything substantive? Rhetorical.That's what we all wonder about you.
That's what we all wonder about you.
BTW, of all the substantive things I've posted over the years, this is the one I'm proudest of:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/bJGkReeSuuk/m/yIuVw_0Pz2wJ
Well done Squidly, you solved the case and we can all go home now! Sarcasm aside, this explains why you tend to dissect the structure of an argument rather than address the substance. I like to do both. But you're in the LNer game where all critical thinking gets tossed out the window and logic be damned. Stay the course and deny, deflect and look away. You apparently being such a person of logic, I'm surprised that being a LNer doesn't make your head explode.As I've already noted, your arguments here lack substance, and are conspicuous in that regard. You started with one circular argument, a followed up with a baseless assertion, ran a Gish Gallop attempt to deflect away from the problem with the baseless assertion. And you went downhill from there. If you are unhappy because you think I'm emphasizing structure rather than substance, you might want to reflect that the lack of substance is entirely your own doing, and has been since you dropped the OP.
BTW you had a couple of glitches in your derivations, but we're already off topic.I welcome any corrections to the math in the post. You (or anyone else) are free to point them out so that they can be corrected.
As I've already noted, your arguments here lack substance, and are conspicuous in that regard. You started with one circular argument, a followed up with a baseless assertion, ran a Gish Gallop attempt to deflect away from the problem with the baseless assertion. And you went downhill from there. If you are unhappy because you think I'm emphasizing structure rather than substance, you might want to reflect that the lack of substance is entirely your own doing, and has been since you dropped the OP.
I welcome any corrections to the math in the post. You (or anyone else) are free to point them out so that they can be corrected.
According to whom, you? Your problem is that this is all you got. You don't debate anything, you just want to ridicule the conspiracy nutjobs as part of your disinformation campaign to deny, deflect and look away at anything that pokes holes in the LN myth. Not very logical of you, but you're not here to solve math problems are you?
I've already spent my allotted time here, because it is a total time suck addressing ad homs from the LNers. So don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond to you anymore. I've got better things to do. Later.
LBJ may or may not have sympathized with fascism, but in this case he was only complicit in the Big Event. He obviously made some sort of deal to allow it to happen and had no intentions of starting WW3, which was the whole point of Oswald being portrayed as a lone nut. LBJ was probably responsible for preventing another Cuban Missile Crisis. Since JFK didn't bite on WW3, LBJ was next in line to carpe diem. Phew, another narrow escape from Armagedon. No wonder LBJ never appointed a VP. He also made an extra effort to make up for his sin of complicity. You realize he went mad in the end, right?These fascists who essentially ran the government - or had great influence in it - allowed LBJ to do all of this? They killed JFK to stop him and his liberal policies but then let LBJ do the very things and more that they killed Kennedy for doing or trying to do? You have all of these powerful groups doing all sort of things to stop JFK and then have them powerless to stop LBJ? I would suggest that if LBJ was not one of these fascist murderers he would certainly know they were around? And he still enacted many of JFK's policies? The ones that led to the fascists killing him?
According to whom, you? Your problem is that this is all you got. You don't debate anything, you just want to ridicule the conspiracy nutjobs as part of your disinformation campaign to deny, deflect and look away at anything that pokes holes in the LN myth. Not very logical of you, but you're not here to solve math problems are you?Your problem is that this is all you got.
I've already spent my allotted time here, because it is a total time suck addressing ad homs from the LNers. So don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond to you anymore. I've got better things to do. Later.
Below is a transcript from a phone call between J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon B. Johnson November 23 1963, less than 24 hours after JFK was assassinated.
I don't want to debate whether both men could have possibly known all this info in that short a time period, because obviously they did. LNers will never be persuaded that LHO wasn't a lone nut anyway.
However, if you lean towards a conspiracy and Oswald was the patsy, then this transcript demonstrates how far up the ladder it went. Top rung. No wonder Johnson never appointed a VP.
That's a lot to know and do less than a day later. WTF?
The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction...
Is this a transcript of the whole conversation?
If so, how come LBJ is asking about "the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September".
He seems more clued up than the head of the FBI.
J. Edna Hoover said .....
"The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction"...
At the same time that Hoover was telling LBJ they could not get a conviction , The DPD (Henry Wade)was telling the press that Lee Oswald was the assassin.
how come LBJ is asking about "the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September"I'm amazed that otherwise "smart" people somehow don't realize that telephone, teletype, radio,
A very astute observation , Mr O'meara! How did LBJ know about Lee Oswald, and Mexico City??
I'm amazed that otherwise "smart" people somehow don't realize that telephone, teletype, radio,
and television existed in 1963, and that information could be spread across immense distances
in the blink of an eye.
Dear Mr Todd .... Can you tell me why LBJ would have any knowledge of ( or interest in) an apparent nobody and a nut named Lee Oswald two months before the name Oswald became notorious.Who said that LBJ had any interest or knowledge of Oswald before the assassination? LBJ didn't. Not in the 11/23/63 Hoover call, at least.
Who said that LBJ had any interest or knowledge of Oswald before the assassination? LBJ didn't. Not in the 11/23/63 Hoover call, at least.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
Please post the PROOF that Hoover had told LB Johnson anything about LHO in Mexico City prior to this telephone conversation.
Once again, Walt gets caught out then tries to shift the burden as a way of covering up.
In reality, I never said that Hoover told LBJ anything one way or the other before the 11/23 call.
In reality, there is no reason to believe that Hoover was the only possible conduit for such information.
In reality, there is quite a paper trail showing that the CIA and FBI (at least) were burning up the wires by the evening of the 22nd regarding Oswald's MXC.
In reality, it should be no surprise that LBJ had already been told by someone that Oswald had been to Mexico City by the Hoover call on the 23rd.
In reality, that is. No telling where Walt's gone off to.
Once again, Walt gets caught out then tries to shift the burden as a way of covering up.
In reality, I never said that Hoover told LBJ anything one way or the other before the 11/23 call.
In reality, there is no reason to believe that Hoover was the only possible conduit for such information.
In reality, there is quite a paper trail showing that the CIA and FBI (at least) were burning up the wires by the evening of the 22nd regarding Oswald's MXC.
In reality, it should be no surprise that LBJ had already been told by someone that Oswald had been to Mexico City by the Hoover call on the 23rd.
In reality, that is. No telling where Walt's gone off to.
WHY would LBJ have any interest in a nut named Oswald walking around Mexico City in September of 63??
In reality, there is no reason to believe that Hoover was the only possible conduit for such information.Really? You had to ask? Since the LHO/MSC information was developed by the CIA, the CIA director John McCone would be an obvious alternate source. Or maybe more of a back channel further down the hierarchy like Tolson -> Katzenbach -> Moyers -> LBJ. The President of the US has a lot of direct reports, and that allows for a large number possible channels information to move through.
Why?
In reality, it should be no surprise that LBJ had already been told by someone that Oswald had been to Mexico City by the Hoover call on the 23rd.The President of the US is assassinated at the height of the cold war. The guy picked up for the doin' the dastardly deed turns out to have been a former defector to the Soviet Union. A former defector who had appeared unexpectedly at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City a month or two before the murder. And you think that no one would think that the visit might just be worth notice? :D
Why would that be no surprise? Oswald's (alleged) trip to Mexico was of no direct consequence for the "who killed Kennedy" question. So, why would "someone" bother the President with this information?
In reality, that is.My reality works just fine. Your's seems to need some work.
Actually, no. In your reality, that is.
WHY would LBJ have any interest in a nut named Oswald walking around Mexico City in September of 63??Walking around Mexico City and hanging out at the Cuban and Soviet Embassies. That's a pretty conspicuous thing to have done when you get fingered as a presidential assassin a few weeks later.
Really? You had to ask? Since the LHO/MSC information was developed by the CIA, the CIA director John McCone would be an obvious alternate source. Or maybe more of a back channel further down the hierarchy like Tolson -> Katzenbach -> Moyers -> LBJ. The President of the US has a lot of direct reports, and that allows for a large number possible channels information to move through.
The President of the US is assassinated at the height of the cold war. The guy picked up for the doin' the dastardly deed turns out to have been a former defector to the Soviet Union. A former defector who had appeared unexpectedly at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City a month or two before the murder. And you think that no one would think that the visit might just be worth notice? :D
My reality works just fine. Your's seems to need some work.
Walking around Mexico City and hanging out at the Cuban and Soviet Embassies. That's a pretty conspicuous thing to have done when you get fingered as a presidential assassin a few weeks later.
Walking around Mexico City and hanging out at the Cuban and Soviet Embassies. That's a pretty conspicuous thing to have done when you get fingered as a presidential assassin a few weeks later.
Walking around Mexico City and hanging out at the Cuban and Soviet Embassies. That's a pretty conspicuous thing to have done when you get fingered as a presidential assassin a few weeks later.
Get your head out.... Do you actually believe that LBJ knew about LHO and Mexico City prior to talking to Hoover on 11/23/63?? If you believe that LBJ was following LHO's movements in September of 63...Then please explain WHY LBJ would have been interested in LHO at that time?I never claimed that LBJ knew in September about Oswald's Mexico City trip. That is the result of your own malfunction. I do say that there was plenty of opportunity for LBJ to have been informed of Oswald's Mexico City excursion between the time Oswald was arrested ~1:45 PM 11/22/63 and Hoover's call to LBJ the next day.
Isn't 20 / 20 hindsight great? ..... Many unsolved crimes could be solved if only we could work in the manner that you suggest ....ie, That the VIP (LBJ) would have any interest in a loony walking around Mexico City making a pest of himself.....Most criminal investigations are textbook exercises in 20/20 hindsight since, by necessity, they only begin after the crime has occurred.
Get your head out.... Do you actually believe that LBJ knew about LHO and Mexico City prior to talking to Hoover on 11/23/63?? If you believe that LBJ was following LHO's movements in September of 63...Then please explain WHY LBJ would have been interested in LHO at that time?
CIA and WWIII.
Are U serious!!....I asked why LBJ ( not the CIA) would have had in interest in Lee Oswald in September of 63...
LBJ was merely the VP.... and his mind was on saving his neck from the Bobby Baker mess...
LOL. You asked two questions. How did LBJ know and why would be care. I answered those idiotic questions. LBJ didn't have an interest in Oswald's visit in Sept. '63. He raised this topic AFTER Oswald assassinated JFK. You really don't think it would have been of interest and potential concern to LBJ to learn that Oswald had been in contact with Cuba and Russia just a few months prior to assassinating the president? Unreal.
"He raised this topic AFTER Oswald assassinated JFK. "
Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
That's correct.....And he asked Hoover about LHO in Mexico City BEFORE BEFORE that subject had been broached...
And my question for you was..... HOW did LBJ know about the Mexico City aspect ?
I'm not sure what you are babbling about. This was on a call AFTER the assassination. The CIA and FBI were aware of Oswald's visit to the embassy. Oswald was asked about it by the FBI. What would be so mysterious about LBJ learning about this concerning event AFTER the assassination from the FBI or CIA and wanting an update? It likely would have been one of the first things told to him about Oswald after he was identified as the suspect. The suspected presidential assassin was known to have visited the Cuban and Russian embassies just months before the act. It could have meant WWIII if the Cubans or Russians were linked to the assassination. Probably the most critical fact from LBJ's perspective at that moment.On the question of when LBJ learned about Oswald's visit to MC.
On the question of when LBJ learned about Oswald's visit to MC.
From Max Holland's book "The Assassination Tapes": "During the [Saturday] morning briefing with McCone, Johnson learned some information from the Central Intelligence Agency that is not yet public knowledge - namely that six weeks prior to the assassination the CIA station in Mexico City observed Oswald visiting the Soviet embassy in the Mexican capital."
So LBJ learned about the Oswald visit *before* having the later call that Saturday (11/23) with Hoover on the latest news/information.
What's a bit interesting is that apparently Hoover/McCone did not know at that time that Oswald had also gone to the Cuban consulate. LBJ was only told about the Soviet Embassy visit. So that bit of information hadn't gotten to them yet.
Very shortly after LHO’s arrest, FBI agent Hosty saw a communique regarding the Mexico City visit to the Soviets. This is from Hosty’s book, “Assignment Oswald”. And he writes that he had already read something about it in October. It appears that a source for this information was the CIA/FBI interception of LHO’s letter to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. But that letter wasn’t yet written in October, it was written November 9th, 1963. So if Hosty had already read something about a meeting in Mexico City in October, it seems to me that it would have been based on the surveillance. And that they had identified who it was that they were observing. Which makes the submitted photo of the guy in Mexico City (who obviously wasn’t LHO) even more bizarre.Right, Hosty testified to the WC that on October 25 the FBI office in New Orleans informed him that they had learned from another agency (obviously the CIA) that Oswald had visited the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. But nothing about meeting a Kostin/Kostikov and nothing about the visit to the Cuban consulate.
TIME: 2:15 P.M.
A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.”
It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks.
“That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the SOB who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin.
“Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?”
“No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.”
Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians.
According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.
Right, Hosty testified to the WC that on October 25 the FBI office in New Orleans informed him that they had learned from another agency (obviously the CIA) that Oswald had visited the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. But nothing about meeting a Kostin/Kostikov and nothing about the visit to the Cuban consulate.
Mr. HOSTY. I then received a communication on the 25th of October from the New Orleans office advising me that another agency had determined that Lee Oswald was in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City in the early part of October 1963.
Mr. STERN. Did they tell you anything else?
Mr. HOSTY. No. Just very briefly that there had been a contact.
Mr. STERN. Did this increase your effort to find him?
Mr. HOSTY. Very much so, yes. I became curious then.
On the photo. I think that was just a screwup. According to Anne Goodpasture, who worked in the CIA station in Mexico City, she had learned that Oswald had phoned the Embassy on Monday and so went through the photos of people who visited the Embassy that day and grabbed those that looked like an American.
Oleg Nechiporenko, the KGB agent in MC, said the man in the photo was a US Air Force "walk in" who had offered to sell military secrets. In his latest book Ed Epstein recounts meeting Nechiporenko in Moscow (Nechiporenko never defected, he went to work for the Russian intelligence service the FSB) and that he told Epstein that the man was a "walk in" and that later that day Oswald also walked in.
It's still odd that Hoover mentions the letter they intercepted but apparently doesn't mention that Oswald said he went to the Cuban consulate. He only mentions the Soviet Embassy visit. The transcript is here: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0029a.htm
Neither McCone or Hoover tell LBJ about the Cuban visit? Do I have that right?
Here's Epstein's account of meeting Nechiporenko in Moscow. Surprising that in this account Nechiporenko said he considered Oswald as a possible source or something, as someone with potential. Potential for what? This is completely at odds with the book account where he said Oswald behaved erratically, pulled out a revolver and as a result of his behavior that they wanted to get rid of him. And this account is all muddled; Oswald visited the Embassy over two days - Friday and Saturday. Nechiporenko has him visiting just one day and that he told Oswald (?) to come back the next day?
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID10162813766/Key4ovti3r54b6f/Epstein%20on%20Nechiporenko.JPG)
The Question is ....Did LBJ know about Lee in Mexico city BEFORE the Hoover / LBJ telephone call?
This question is being derailed ........
On the question of when LBJ learned about Oswald's visit to MC.
From Max Holland's book "The Assassination Tapes": "During the [Saturday] morning briefing with McCone, Johnson learned some information from the Central Intelligence Agency that is not yet public knowledge - namely that six weeks prior to the assassination the CIA station in Mexico City observed Oswald visiting the Soviet embassy in the Mexican capital."
So LBJ learned about the Oswald visit *before* having the later call that Saturday (11/23) with Hoover on the latest news/information.
What's a bit interesting is that apparently Hoover/McCone did not know at that time that Oswald had also gone to the Cuban consulate. LBJ was only told about the Soviet Embassy visit. So that bit of information hadn't gotten to them yet.
The Question is ....Did LBJ know about Lee in Mexico city BEFORE the Hoover / LBJ telephone call?Answered above. McCone informed LBJ about the visit in a CIA briefing before the Hoover call.
This question is being derailed ........
Here's Epstein's account of meeting Nechiporenko in Moscow. Surprising that in this account Nechiporenko said he considered Oswald as a possible source, as someone with potential. Potential for what? This is completely at odds with the book account where he said Oswald behaved erratically, pulled out a revolver and as a result of his behavior that they wanted to get rid of him. And this account is all muddled; Oswald visited the Embassy over two days - Friday and Saturday. Nechiporenko has him visiting just one day and that he told Oswald (?) to come back the next day?
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID10162813766/Key4ovti3r54b6f/Epstein%20on%20Nechiporenko.JPG)
Is this a transcript of the whole conversation?
If so, how come LBJ is asking about "the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September".
He seems more clued up than the head of the FBI.
Yeah, why deny this? The rifle, the package, photos...denying that makes sense. But this? So angrily? Just anger with the FBI or something more?
When questioned about it, LHO became upset and denied ever even being in Mexico City. This was similar to his denying owning a rifle, or bringing a long package to work, etc. It is intriguing…
how come LBJ is asking about "the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September".
That's the question ........?? Why was LBJ asking that question....
Was LBJ still trying to make it appear as if Lee Oswald was an agent of the Soviets? ( The original plot intended to make it appear as though Lee Oswald was working with the Cubans ( and therefore that could be used as a pretext for attacking Cuba) But they had to back away from that plot because of the fear of starting a nuclear war with Russia.
how come LBJ is asking about "the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September".
That's the question ........?? Why was LBJ asking that question....
Was LBJ still trying to make it appear as if Lee Oswald was an agent of the Soviets? ( The original plot intended to make it appear as though Lee Oswald was working with the Cubans ( and therefore that could be used as a pretext for attacking Cuba) But they had to back away from that plot because of the fear of starting a nuclear war with Russia.
That's the question ........?? Why was LBJ asking that question....
LBJ had been informed about it earlier in the day by the CIA. He was speaking to the head of the FBI. Why the heck wouldn’t he ask if there was any further developments regarding this very important aspect of the assassination investigation? Even if there hadn’t been any further developments, LBJ was experienced enough to know that the various Federal agencies and bureaus do not always share all of the available information with each other. If the FBI had information that the CIA wasn’t privy to (I am not saying that they did), LBJ was talking to JEH, (who most likely would have all of the information that the FBI possessed). So, I think that the better (than your’s) question would be: Why wouldn’t he want to ask the question?
LBJ had been informed about it earlier in the day by the CIA.
Please present verification that LBJ had been briefed by the CIA about Mexico City "earlier in the day ".
On the question of when LBJ learned about Oswald's visit to MC.
From Max Holland's book "The Assassination Tapes": "During the [Saturday] morning briefing with McCone, Johnson learned some information from the Central Intelligence Agency that is not yet public knowledge - namely that six weeks prior to the assassination the CIA station in Mexico City observed Oswald visiting the Soviet embassy in the Mexican capital."
So LBJ learned about the Oswald visit *before* having the later call that Saturday (11/23) with Hoover on the latest news/information.
What's a bit interesting is that apparently Hoover/McCone did not know at that time that Oswald had also gone to the Cuban consulate. LBJ was only told about the Soviet Embassy visit. So that bit of information hadn't gotten to them yet.
Correction: LBJ had that crazy letter that Oswald sent to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. He mentions the Cuban consulate visit there. So Hoover knew about it but doesn't mention if in the call with LBJ? Or was that edited out?
six weeks prior to the assassination the CIA station in Mexico City observed Oswald visiting the Soviet embassy in the Mexican capital."
They took a photo of the man calling himself Oswald..... Right?
six weeks prior to the assassination the CIA station in Mexico City observed Oswald visiting the Soviet embassy in the Mexican capital."There is no evidence the man in the photo called himself Oswald. How would the CIA know what the man called himself to the Soviets? Only the people in the Embassy he met would know what he called himself.
They took a photo of the man calling himself Oswald..... Right?
There is no evidence the man in the photo called himself Oswald. How would the CIA know what the man called himself to the Soviets? Only the people in the Embassy he met would know what he called himself.
And what did they say? The three KGB agents/Embassy officers who met the man who said he was Oswald said that man was the Oswald arrested for the assassination. One of them - Oleg Nechiporenko - said the man in the photo was a US Air Force officer who offered to sell secrets to the Soviets. He did not identify himself as Oswald.
If the CIA were involved in framing Oswald for this crime and contrived a fake Oswald Mexico City visit for some inexplicable reason (i.e. it was not necessary to frame Oswald for the JFK assassination to have him travel to Mexico City months beforehand), then why would they then release a picture of someone who obviously isn't Oswald after the fact? HA HA HA. Why not have a crystal-clear picture of Ozzie posing at the entrance if the trip was faked by the CIA? Whew.
[...]LBJ says it himself in the Hoover call: "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?"
Now back to the question...... Please present verification that LBJ was told about Lee Oswald in Mexico PRIOT to the telephone conversation with Hoover.
LBJ says it himself in the Hoover call: "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?"
Do you even know what you're arguing any more, Walt?
LBJ says it himself in the Hoover call: "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?"Well, obviously someone told him about it. When LBJ first made it to the White House, he was given morning briefings by McGeorge Bundy and CIA director John McCone. This was before the Hoover call. McCone's briefing is the most likely source of LBJ's knowledge of Oswald in Mexico City. The CIA had made the connection between Oswald and the MXC visitor the afternoon of the 22nd, so there was plenty of opportunity for LBJ to have found out the night of the 22nd or early on the 23d.
BINGO!!..... HOW did LBJ know about Mexico City?
And why would he raise the subject....By the time of the telephone call the decision had already been made to back away from trying to show that Lee was a Soviet agent.... LBJ was afraid of a nuclear war.....Once he knew of the MXC visit, why would he not want to know of any further developments? Whether or not he feared a nuclear war, any Soviet involvement in JFK's assassination would still be an extremely serious matter.
LBJ says it himself in the Hoover call: "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?"
BINGO!!..... HOW did LBJ know about Mexico City? And why would he raise the subject....By the time of the telephone call the decision had already been made to back away from trying to show that Lee was a Soviet agent.... LBJ was afraid of a nuclear war.....
Narrative consistency is not a strong point for CTers.
J. Edgar Hoover: "The evidence that they have at the present time is not very, very strong."During the conversation, Hoover hots that FBI had yet to complete fingerprint analysis or ballistic analysis of CE399 or the bullet fragments found on SS100x's floor. The latter of these were what would tie the rifle to the assassination, and (as Hoover noted) the FBI had already tied the rifle to Oswald. That connection made the case much stronger.
J. Edgar Hoover: "The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction..."
So, we have J. Edgar Hoover in his own voice and words admitting that the evidence and case against Lee Harvey Oswald is "not very strong" and "isn't strong enough" to get a conviction.
The evidence against Oswald should have been overwhelming if he was indeed the lone assassin, but here we have Hoover in a private moment admitting there is no strong evidence against Oswald to even convict him.
During the conversation, Hoover hots that FBI had yet to complete fingerprint analysis or ballistic analysis of CE399 or the bullet fragments found on SS100x's floor. The latter of these were what would tie the rifle to the assassination, and (as Hoover noted) the FBI had already tied the rifle to Oswald. That connection made the case much stronger.
During the conversation, Hoover hots that FBI had yet to complete fingerprint analysis or ballistic analysis of CE399 or the bullet fragments found on SS100x's floor. The latter of these were what would tie the rifle to the assassination, and (as Hoover noted) the FBI had already tied the rifle to Oswald. That connection made the case much stronger.
And finally, the only way Oswald is tied to the MC rifle is by the flawed opinion of an FBI expert who claimed that Oswald wrote the order note for Kleins' in Chicago which, in the bigger scheme of things, proves absolutely nothing even if it was true.
The envelope was addressed to Oswald's PO Box. Ouch!
Also, besides Oswald himself who would want to distance himself from the rifle purchase by using an alias, why would any conspirator add an extra redundant step of using an alias? It's simply logical to just forge Oswald's real name and avoid any unnecessary complications. I can't recall in any criminal case in Earth's History that a conspirator would set up their patsy with a name that wasn't their actual patsy's name and then have to rely on some "flawed" opinion? Does that even make sense?
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsSjNkzr/Lee-Harvey-Oswald-s-order-form-and-envelope-exhibit-CE773.jpg)
JohnM
Oswald carrying a fake Hidell ID,
Nice, so you agree that Oswald was carrying the fake Hidell identification. That's progress!
JohnM
You shouldn't comment on something you don't understand. It's the narrative that Oswald carried a fake Hidell ID.
My comment showed that even the narrative contradicted your silly claim that Oswald "would want to distance himself from the rifle purchase by using an alias".
Next time try to reach a little bit higher level of discussion instead of just making childish comments.
Btw, it's duly noted that you are unable to respond to the rest of my post. Thumb1:
It's the narrative that Oswald carried a fake Hidell ID.
My comment showed that even the narrative contradicted your silly claim that Oswald "would want to distance himself from the rifle purchase by using an alias".
Btw, it's duly noted that you are unable to respond to the rest of my post.
It's a fact, the Hidell identification was in Oswald's wallet.
Slow down Cowboy, Oswald bought the rifle in March just before he attempted to murder General Walker and clearly Oswald used the Hidell alias to hide his true identity for that attempt. Oswald carrying the Hidell identification eight months later could have been for a multitude of reasons.
The rest was just gibberish and your usual insults, which btw are getting more aggressive as the years pass. Lighten up, there's more to life than being perpetually angry.
JohnM
It's a fact, the Hidell identification was in Oswald's wallet.
Slow down Cowboy, Oswald bought the rifle in March just before he attempted to murder General Walker and clearly Oswald used the Hidell alias to hide his true identity for that attempt. Oswald carrying the Hidell identification eight months later could have been for a multitude of reasons.
The rest was just gibberish and your usual insults, which btw are getting more aggressive as the years pass. Lighten up, there's more to life than being perpetually angry.