JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on January 30, 2018, 01:07:23 AM
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Jarman's WC Testimony
Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. BALL - What about Mr. Truly?
Mr. JARMAN - He wasn't standing close to me.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was he with?
Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. JARMAN - O. V. Campbell.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. JARMAN - They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.
Jarman met up with Norman on the way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and standing west of the steps on the sidewalk. He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him (they) came out later. Was he referring to Shelley as well?
Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.
He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28 when they arrived at the 5th floor windows, just minutes before the shots.
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Harold Norman's WC Testiomony
Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?
Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.
Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, something like that.
Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kuz44R/B2003_FEA_0_E54_43_BC_A479_86119_C03_C380.jpg)
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade with times indicated taken from Dallas Police Radio logs added.
The Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm. Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25. They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 6th floor. This would take about a minute at 6ft per sec walking speed. The elevator took about 30 seconds to reach the 5th floor. They could have been in position on the fifth floor about 2 minutes after departing the front steps and may have been in position around 12.25 or slightly later depending on the accuracy of the broadcast.
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Some confirmation from Roy Truly.....
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
And Givens
Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?
Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."
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Jarman's WC Testimony
Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. BALL - What about Mr. Truly?
Mr. JARMAN - He wasn't standing close to me.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was he with?
Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. JARMAN - O. V. Campbell.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. JARMAN - They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.
Jarman met up with Norman on the way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and standing west of the steps on the sidewalk. He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him (they) came out later. Was he referring to Shelley as well?
Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.
He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28 when they arrived at the 5th floor windows, just minutes before the shots.
I use the time of 12:27 as the time that Lee Oswald saw them come in ......If Lee was on the first floor and observed Jarman and Norman come into the first floor shipping room as he told Fritz, then he could not have been the man in the light colored khaki clothing that witnesses on he street saw at the sixth floor window at that same time.
And HOW could Lee describe Jarman and Norman entering the building if he wasn't there ???
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We will never know the exact time they reentered the TSBD but the important fact was that it was at a time that was close to the scheduled time for the motorcade to pass. Well after Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle in the SW window of the 6th floor. Certainly it is interesting that Oswald should single out those two in particular during interrogation. From memory one of those present claimed Oswald said they "passed through" the domino room. A perculiar expression to use for a room with only one entrance. Perhaps it was "passed by" instead.
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We will never know the exact time they reentered the TSBD but the important fact was that it was at a time that was close to the scheduled time for the motorcade to pass. Well after Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle in the SW window of the 6th floor. Certainly it is interesting that Oswald should single out those two in particular during interrogation. From memory one of those present claimed Oswald said they "passed through" the domino room. A perculiar expression to use for a room with only one entrance. Perhaps it was "passed by" instead.
None of the interrogators were familiar with the layout of the TSBD at the time Lee was being interrogated. Even at the time they wrote their reports they didn't know things like you've pointed out...that there was no portal that allowed a person to enter the Domino room from outside. Thus they were confused about what Lee told them.....and therefore wrote inaccurate reports.
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The fact that there is not consistency of detail provided by those that were present may well have been contributed largely because of ignorance of the layout.
Does it not seem bizarre that an accused would try to claim an alibi of having lunch with individuals if it did not happen? They would simply deny it ever occurred and the lie add weight to the guilt of the accused.
However if they were noticed either passing by the northern window of the domino room or heading away from the domino room to the west elevator it would be worth mentioning during interrogation to establish presence away from the SN at that time.
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The fact that there is not consistency of detail provided by those that were present may well have been contributed largely because of ignorance of the layout.
Does it not seem bizarre that an accused would try to claim an alibi of having lunch with individuals if it did not happen? They would simply deny it ever occurred and the lie add weight to the guilt of the accused.
However if they were noticed either passing by the northern window of the domino room or heading away from the domino room to the west elevator it would be worth mentioning during interrogation to establish presence away from the SN at that time.
Does it not seem bizarre that an accused would try to claim an alibi of having lunch with individuals if it did not happen? They would simply deny it ever occurred and the lie add weight to the guilt of the accused.
Indeed it would be utterly stupid for the accused (Lee Oswald) to claim that he had companions eating lunch with him at 12:27.
Lee Oswald wasn't stupid..... He wouldn't have told the interrogators such a stupid lie.....They simply misunderstood what he told them or deliberately misconstrued what he told them.
However if they were noticed (by LHO) either passing by the northern window of the domino room or heading away from the domino room to the west elevator it would be worth mentioning during interrogation to establish presence away from the SN at that time.
Yes...And in fact that is exactly what Lee did..... Unfortunately he never realized that he was talking to one of the key conspirators who would twist his statements.
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If Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest, couldn't he have seen Jarman and Norman on the street below? And wouldn't he know Jarman and Norman were together from them having arrived at the fifth-floor window together?
Was there some stretch in assuming they went up from the street and through the building together, including passing by the domino room?
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If Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest, couldn't he have seen Jarman and Norman on the street below? And wouldn't he know Jarman and Norman were together from them having arrived at the fifth-floor window together?
Was there some stretch in assuming they went up from the street and through the building together, including passing by the domino room?
If Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest, couldn't he have seen Jarman and Norman on the street below?
Sure... if he had a neck like a giraffe .......
And wouldn't he know Jarman and Norman were together from them having arrived at the fifth-floor window together?
Sure.... with his giraffe neck he could have looked down from the sixth floor window and seen them.
Was there some stretch in assuming they went up from the street and through the building together, including passing by the domino room?
Stretch?? interesting choice of words there Mr Organ...... Considering that Lee would have had to STRETCH his giraffe neck to see what you propose....
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If Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest, couldn't he have seen Jarman and Norman on the street below?
Sure... if he had a neck like a giraffe .......
And wouldn't he know Jarman and Norman were together from them having arrived at the fifth-floor window together?
Sure.... with his giraffe neck he could have looked down from the sixth floor window and seen them.
Was there some stretch in assuming they went up from the street and through the building together, including passing by the domino room?
Stretch?? interesting choice of words there Mr Organ...... Considering that Lee would have had to STRETCH his giraffe neck to see what you propose....
LOL! That sure captured your imagination.
But no legitimate reason, so far.
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Colin
If Jarman and Norman did not go up to the 5th floor until 1220-1225, and Bonnie Ray Williams did not descend from the 6th floor to join them until after that, that can only mean BRW was present on the 6th floor, almost right on top of the Sniper's Nest, slightly before the motorcade passed at 1230.
How would Oswald have been able to re-arrange all of the boxes in the SN without BRW hearing or seeing him, as BRW was within spitting distance of the SN?
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Colin
If Jarman and Norman did not go up to the 5th floor until 1220-1225, and Bonnie Ray Williams did not descend from the 6th floor to join them until after that, that can only mean BRW was present on the 6th floor, almost right on top of the Sniper's Nest, slightly before the motorcade passed at 1230.
How would Oswald have been able to re-arrange all of the boxes in the SN without BRW hearing or seeing him, as BRW was within spitting distance of the SN?
My guess is that everything was arranged and the rifle was assembled (if it needed to be) during one of the morning hours. I believe the idea is that he moved two boxes, weighing about eight pounds each, from the center area of the floor to the SN. These boxes included the one on top of a larger box that was near the open window and a similar box that was set up on the window box.
The other boxes had been shifted there from the first aisle (western-most) where they had begun to lay a plywood covering.
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My guess is that everything was arranged and the rifle was assembled (if it needed to be) during one of the morning hours. I believe the idea is that he moved two boxes, weighing about eight pounds each, from the center area of the floor to the SN. These boxes included the one on top of a larger box that was near the open window and a similar box that was set up on the window box.
The other boxes had been shifted there from the first aisle (western-most) where they had begun to lay a plywood covering.
Sounds pretty complicated, Jerry.
Think he had help?
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Colin
If Jarman and Norman did not go up to the 5th floor until 1220-1225, and Bonnie Ray Williams did not descend from the 6th floor to join them until after that, that can only mean BRW was present on the 6th floor, almost right on top of the Sniper's Nest, slightly before the motorcade passed at 1230.
How would Oswald have been able to re-arrange all of the boxes in the SN without BRW hearing or seeing him, as BRW was within spitting distance of the SN?
The departure of BRW is something we need to consider. Maybe best done in another thread. For now is there anyone who disagrees with the time of around 12.25 or perhaps a bit later for the arrival of Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor? If not perhaps we can move on.
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If Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest, couldn't he have seen Jarman and Norman on the street below? And wouldn't he know Jarman and Norman were together from them having arrived at the fifth-floor window together?
Was there some stretch in assuming they went up from the street and through the building together, including passing by the domino room?
It is not impossible Jerry. My read of their testimonies indicates that they stayed close to the entrance on the west side. Truly was initially on the east side near the mailboxes. Truly mentioned them leaving with Givens, who went to another location near Record and Main. They went around the east side of the building and in the back entrance. Think someone in the SN probably needs to stick their head out the window and look down to observe that movement.
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It is not impossible Jerry. My read of their testimonies indicates that they stayed close to the entrance on the west side. Truly was initially on the east side near the mailboxes. Truly mentioned them leaving with Givens, who went to another location near Record and Main. They went around the east side of the building and in the back entrance. Think someone in the SN probably needs to stick their head out the window and look down to observe that movement.
Think someone in the SN probably needs to stick their head out the window and look down to observe that movement.
No witness reported seeing anybody hanging precariously out of a window ........And even if Lee had been there dressed in light colored khaki clothes and hung out of that window how would he have known where Jarman and Norman were going and why would he have cared ??
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We will never know the exact time they reentered the TSBD but the important fact was that it was at a time that was close to the scheduled time for the motorcade to pass. Well after Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle in the SW window of the 6th floor. Certainly it is interesting that Oswald should single out those two in particular during interrogation. From memory one of those present claimed Oswald said they "passed through" the domino room. A perculiar expression to use for a room with only one entrance. Perhaps it was "passed by" instead.
Fritz and Kelley reported that Oswald said he had lunch with them. Anyone who claims to know what Oswald said about Norman and Jarman is fabricating.
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If Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest, couldn't he have seen Jarman and Norman on the street below? And wouldn't he know Jarman and Norman were together from them having arrived at the fifth-floor window together?
It's possible. It's also possible that he saw them together when they were all on the first floor around 11:50-noon. It's also possible that that he knew Norman and Jarman usually ate lunch together in the domino room (even though they didn't that day) and he just threw their names out with some generic statement about seeing them together.
We'll never know.
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It's possible. It's also possible that he saw them together when they were all on the first floor around 11:50-noon. It's also possible that that he knew Norman and Jarman usually ate lunch together in the domino room (even though they didn't that day) and he just threw their names out with some generic statement about seeing them together.
We'll never know.
he just threw their names out with some generic statement about seeing them together.
Riiiiight!...That explains why Fritz jotted down....."says two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."
Lee just made an uncanny guess that Junior Jarman and Harold Norman "came in" at 12:27.....
And what's really super uncanny is the fact that Lee was so quick of mind that he knew he needed an alibi for that very time......Even though his mind would have been occupied with dozens of other thoughts if he had been guilty.
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Riiiiight!...That explains why Fritz jotted down....."says two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."
First of all, Fritz "jotted" that down several days after the fact.
But, what did he mean by "came in"? Came in where? And when? Answer that without any fabricating.
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First of all, Fritz "jotted" that down several days after the fact.
But, what did he mean by "came in"? Came in where? And when? Answer that without any fabricating.
First of all, Fritz "jotted" that down several days after the fact.
If you actually believe that .....Then your even more gullible and naive than I previously thought.
But, what did he mean by "came in"? Came in where? And when?
Well what did Jarman and Norman say?.....Didn't they say that they "CAME IN" to the first floor shipping room?
And didn't they say they left the front of the TSBD and walked north along the east side of the TSBD ( passing right in front of the Domino room windows) at 12:25?
Is this too complicated for you?
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If you actually believe that .....Then your even more gullible and naive than I previously thought.
And your reason for not believing it is....because you fabricated a different story.
Well what did Jarman and Norman say?.....Didn't they say that they "CAME IN" to the first floor shipping room?
We're talking about what Oswald said. And nobody who was present at the interrogation said that he said that. Sorry Walt, you just made it up. Again.
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And your reason for not believing it is....because you fabricated a different story.
We're talking about what Oswald said. And nobody who was present at the interrogation said that he said that. Sorry Walt, you just made it up. Again.
We're talking about what Oswald said.
Were not talking about what Oswald said without regard to the EVENT he was talking about.....
He said that he saw Jarman and Norman come in......
It's true that HE didn't know them by name.... but we do.....
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We're talking about what Oswald said.
Were not talking about what Oswald said without regard to the EVENT he was talking about.....
He said that he saw Jarman and Norman come in......
It's true that HE didn't know them by name.... but we do.....
You don't get to take what Norman and Jarman said they did and pretend that Oswald said that he saw that. Sorry, that's just a fabrication. All we know is that he said something about seeing Norman and Jarman at some unspecified time and place.
Fritz's notes: "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."
Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."
Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."
Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."
You're basing your entire fabrication on cherry-picking your interpretation of Fritz's "came in" note and ignoring everything else. Norman and Jarman didn't say they had lunch with Oswald, nor did they "walk through" the domino room at 12:27. It's not even very plausible that someone sitting in the domino room would have seen them come in the loading dock door and walk to the elevators because of the sight lines.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/domino-room.jpg)
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You don't get to take what Norman and Jarman said they did and pretend that Oswald said that he saw that. Sorry, that's just a fabrication. All we know is that he said something about seeing Norman and Jarman at some unspecified time and place.
Fritz's notes: "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."
Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."
Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."
Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."
You're basing your entire fabrication on cherry-picking your interpretation of Fritz's "came in" note and ignoring everything else. Norman and Jarman didn't say they had lunch with Oswald, nor did they "walk through" the domino room at 12:27. It's not even very plausible that someone sitting in the domino room would have seen them come in the loading dock door and walk to the elevators because of the sight lines.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/domino-room.jpg)
Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."
But this is NOT what his note says......Fritz's notes: "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."
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To John and Walt. Perhaps we can find what we can agree on. During interrogation Oswald mentioned an awareness of Jarman and Norman associated in some way with the lunch room. Would that satisfy?
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I have mistakenly assumed, over the years, that the Domino Room, if that is what we are referring to as the "lunch room", was more centrally located; and that it had a door going into it and another door leading out of it (or vice versa). However, I see from the floor plan that I was mistaken, and that it is in a corner with only one door into it.
If Jarman and Norman were entering the rear of the TSBD for the purpose of going up to the 5th floor, just before the motorcade arrived, why would they take a detour into the Domino Room?
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Too bad BALL gave up on DOUGHERTY...
Mr. BALL - What time do you usually go to lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon.
Mr. BALL - Do you carry your lunch most of the time from home?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And where do you usually eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they have got what they call a domino room in there and I usually eat it in there.
Mr. BALL - You usually eat your lunch in the domino room?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.
Well, almost, so who did he lunch with that day?
Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?
Mr. ARCE. I went outside.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.
Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.
Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with.
Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.
Mr. BALL. Was he outside?
Mr. ARCE No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same timei.
Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
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As there has been no meaningful challenge to the original estimate I would consider this question answered.
All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.
DVP can use this to update his website.
Perhaps we can move to the next question.
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As there has been no meaningful challenge to the original estimate I would consider this question answered.
All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.
DVP can use this to update his website.
Perhaps we can move to the next question.
Would they have needed permission from Truly to go back inside before the motorcade arrived? I think he ordered everyone outside to watch the President pass
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As there has been no meaningful challenge to the original estimate I would consider this question answered.
All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.
DVP can use this to update his website.
Perhaps we can move to the next question.
All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.
Yes....And Lee Oswald said that he was on the first floor and he saw them "come in" as they traveled to the fifth floor.
At the time witnesses were watching a man in light colored khaki clothing behind a sixth floor window. Bonnie Ray Williams claimed that he was on the sixth floor near that SE corner window at the time. Williams had to have seen the man in the khaki uniform......
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Uhhh... I discuss Oswald's alibi regarding Jarman and Norman ad nauseum in chapter 4 at patspeer.com
I nail a lot of stuff down, including that someone sitting in the Domino Room with the door open would have a perfect view of anyone coming in the back door. This is shown here. The back door is on the left of the photo and the Domino Room entrance is on the right.
(https://sites.google.com/a/patspeer.com/www2/_/rsrc/1506713869181/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-29%20at%2012.32.18%20PM.png)
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Would they have needed permission from Truly to go back inside before the motorcade arrived? I think he ordered everyone outside to watch the President pass
Never heard that before Michael. Of the employees under his control, Piper, West, Williams, Oswald and Dougherty were all inside the building
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Would they have needed permission from Truly to go back inside before the motorcade arrived? I think he ordered everyone outside to watch the President pass
Ordered? When?
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Uhhh... I discuss Oswald's alibi regarding Jarman and Norman ad nauseum in chapter 4 at patspeer.com
I nail a lot of stuff down, including that someone sitting in the Domino Room with the door open would have a perfect view of anyone coming in the back door. This is shown here. The back door is on the left of the photo and the Domino Room entrance is on the right.
(https://sites.google.com/a/patspeer.com/www2/_/rsrc/1506713869181/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-29%20at%2012.32.18%20PM.png)
Lee wouldn't have had to see Junior Jarman and Harold Norman actually passing through the portal to know that the did in fact come in through that door..... He could have seen them pass by the windows and them seen or heard them getting on the elevator....
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Uhhh... I discuss Oswald's alibi regarding Jarman and Norman ad nauseum in chapter 4 at patspeer.com
Thanks Pat. Good reading. I'm impressed at your thoroughness. At least you acknowledge that it's merely a possibility that Oswald saw Norman and Jarman in the shipping area going to the elevators rather than Walt just declaring as a fact that Oswald said that. But here's my problem with that. Kelley independently recalled Oswald saying he ate his lunch with them. Is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that Oswald said something about having lunch with them? As you point out, Oswald may very well have had lunch at the same time as Norman (but not Jarman) in the domino room, and he may very well have seen them together immediately before or after that, but that would have been much earlier (around noon). Also, while it's possible that somebody in the domino room could see someone walking between the back door and the elevators, there is a pretty small area of the domino room that has a sight line there through the domino room door (assuming it even stayed open), and there is a long bench with no table facing north in that area and possibly one seat at a small table against the east window (also facing north) in a position to see through the domino room door at all. And no location has a view of the back door itself. If he was eating or even reading the newspaper, he would probably have been at a table. If Oswald had really said anything remotely resembling seeing them through a door going through a different room some 50 feet away, why wasn't that reflected in the accounts of the interrogation? It was either that he had lunch with them or they walked in or through the room (implying the room he was in). Were they all just really lousy at following a conversation? Fritz is the only one who indicates that this Norman/Jarman sighting happened at the time the motorcade went by, and that doesn't even fit. At the time the motorcade went by, Norman and Jarman were on the 5th floor.
It's a weak possibility of an alibi at best.
Also, I'm curious why you think Thayer Waldo's "scared negro" is logically Givens. I think it's way more logically Bonnie Ray Williams. He was on the 6th floor as late as 12:28. Givens was gone by 11:50 unless you think Shields is lying. But good dismantling of Givens' cigarette story.
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Thanks Pat. Good reading. I'm impressed at your thoroughness. At least you acknowledge that it's merely a possibility that Oswald saw Norman and Jarman in the shipping area going to the elevators rather than Walt just declaring as a fact that Oswald said that. But here's my problem with that. Kelley independently recalled Oswald saying he ate his lunch with them. Is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that Oswald said something about having lunch with them? As you point out, Oswald may very well have had lunch at the same time as Norman (but not Jarman) in the domino room, and he may very well have seen them together immediately before or after that, but that would have been much earlier (around noon). Also, while it's possible that somebody in the domino room could see someone walking between the back door and the elevators, there is a pretty small area of the domino room that has a sight line there through the domino room door (assuming it even stayed open), and there is a long bench with no table facing north in that area and possibly one seat at a small table against the east window (also facing north) in a position to see through the domino room door at all. And no location has a view of the back door itself. If he was eating or even reading the newspaper, he would probably have been at a table. If Oswald had really said anything remotely resembling seeing them through a door going through a different room some 50 feet away, why wasn't that reflected in the accounts of the interrogation? It was either that he had lunch with them or they walked in or through the room (implying the room he was in). Were they all just really lousy at following a conversation? Fritz is the only one who indicates that this Norman/Jarman sighting happened at the time the motorcade went by, and that doesn't even fit. At the time the motorcade went by, Norman and Jarman were on the 5th floor.
It's a weak possibility of an alibi at best.
Also, I'm curious why you think Thayer Waldo's "scared negro" is logically Givens. I think it's way more logically Bonnie Ray Williams. He was on the 6th floor as late as 12:28. Givens was gone by 11:50 unless you think Shields is lying. But good dismantling of Givens' cigarette story.
If he (Lee Oswald) was eating or even reading the newspaper, he would probably have been at a table. If Oswald had really said anything remotely resembling seeing them through a door going through a different room some 50 feet away, why wasn't that reflected in the accounts of the interrogation?
You're a fool.....Ir should be obvious to you by now that Lee Oswald was being framed by Fritz and the conspirators in the DPD....
Initially Fritz jotted down Lee's replies to his questions......( though Fritz lied and said he never took any notes during the interrogation and then lied and said that the scribbled notes were jotted down days after the interrogation.) You chose to believe Fritz ...so you're a fool.
Since Fritz was framing Lee Oswald.....He wouldn't have admitted that Lee said that he was alone in the Domino room.
In my opinion Lee would not have wanted anybody to see him at the time he was supposed to be shooting at JFK....Therefore he probably stayed out of sight in the restroom next to the Domino room.....from there he could see events like Jarman and Norman passing by but they couldn't see him.
Kelley independently recalled Oswald saying he ate his lunch with them.
Kelly wasn't there for the interrogation.....Kelly was present for the Saturday interrogations .....And those interrogations were focused on discovering what Lee knew about the BY photo.
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You're a fool.....Ir should be obvious to you by now that Lee Oswald was being framed by Fritz and the conspirators in the DPD....
. . . and yet you're relying on notes made by this "framer" to prop up your little fabrication. All the notes say is "says two negr. came in". Everything else you just made up. Insulting me doesn't change this fact.
Since Fritz was framing Lee Oswald.....He wouldn't have admitted that Lee said that he was alone in the Domino room.
...and you know what Lee said, how exactly? Oh yeah, you made it up.
Kelly wasn't there for the interrogation.....Kelly was present for the Saturday interrogations .....And those interrogations were focused on discovering what Lee knew about the BY photo.
The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation. This is corroborated not only by Kelley, but Fritz and Bookhout as well. If you want to claim that it happened some other time you better have some evidence beyond your fevered imagination.
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. . . and yet you're relying on notes made by this "framer" to prop up your little fabrication. All the notes say is "says two negr. came in". Everything else you just made up. Insulting me doesn't change this fact.
...and you know what Lee said, how exactly? Oh yeah, you made it up.
The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation. This is corroborated not only by Kelley, but Fritz and Bookhout as well. If you want to claim that it happened some other time you better have some evidence beyond your fevered imagination.
The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation.
Perhaps you should read Fritz notes.... Oh that's right you're so naive that you believe that he took the notes days later..... but all of the items Fritz scribbled are from the first interrogation at about 3:15 pm 11/22/63....
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The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation.
Perhaps you should read Fritz notes.... Oh that's right you're so naive that you believe that he took the notes days later..... but all of the items Fritz scribbled are from the first interrogation at about 3:15 pm 11/22/63....
What are you smoking? The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/029/29103/images/img_29103_1_200.jpg)
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What are you smoking? The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/029/29103/images/img_29103_1_200.jpg)
The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.
Thank you.....Now... What is the word immediately following the entry? It looks like... ASK?
IOW....Fritz noted that Lee told him that while he was there in the Domino room he saw two fellow employees come in and they were Negroes, and one was called Junior...... And Fritz wanted to remind himself to ask those two men if they had came in just prior to the shooting....
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The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.
Thank you.....Now... What is the word immediately following the entry? It looks like... ASK?
IOW....Fritz noted that Lee told him that while he was there in the Domino room he saw two fellow employees come in and they were Negroes, and one was called Junior...... And Fritz wanted to remind himself to ask those two men if they had came in just prior to the shooting....
What's this? Changing the subject because your fabrication about this happening at the interrogation on the 22nd fell flat?
And then injecting another fabrication?
"Ask ? for lunch says cheese sandwiches + apple"
Fritz asked Oswald what he had for lunch.