The pictures, for some reason beyond my comprehension, fail to show up. Can you post a photo of the hole in the limousine floor?That pix of the hole in the floor is in about 3 threads here. I will fix them up right away. Praps i didnt make them public, in which case they would praps show for members like myself but not for non-members. I will fix. That pix of the hole aint in Robin Unger's gallery, but i know that he knows of the pix.
The pictures, for some reason beyond my comprehension, fail to show up. Can you post a photo of the hole in the limousine floor?I just then included a photo of the hole in the floor using the photoimages hosting site, my first go at using their site, so there are now 3 identical photos in that posting using 3 different hosting sites (see reply #14 on previous page). How many of them 3 kum up ok for u?
LARRY A. SNEED A high school U.S. history teacher in Georgia for thirty-five years, Sneed became an assassination researcher in the early 1980s and recorded over sixty hours of interviews with eyewitnesses and law enforcement officials between 1987 and 1992. He published first-person narratives of those oral histories in the book No More Silence(1998). Recorded November 2, 2009.
T E Moore told Sneed that the first shot was when JFK was level with the highway marker, ie just past the signals. This is i think the best witness evidence that we have re where Oswald's shot-1 happened. And it confirms that shot-1 was time-wise at Z113, & that JFK was from Oswald's view in line with the signal arm. Here is the excerpt from Sneed's book.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/firstshot/t-e-moore-first-shot.png)My Reply#23 says that Moore said a small highway marker sign, in front of the TSBD.
Moore apparently was referring to the Thornton Freeway sign, which has highway numbers on it.
(https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/jfk-final-minutes-06.jpg)
It could be Moore in the 1960s was familiar with the sign being called Thornton, but by the 1980s wasn't able to recall the term Thornton.
Moore wasn't side-to to the limousine, so his estimation that the President "had reached the Thronton Freeway sign" at the moment of the first shot would have been from an oblique view. It seems to work well with a first shot in the Z150s, being heard by some about Z161. A first shot in the Z200s would probably mean the President was blocked from Moore's view by the Queen Mary and the agents stood on the car's running boards.
The cluster sign stand you refer to could not be characterized as a "highway marker sign". The "RL Thornton Freeway" sign refers to a highway.
My Reply#23 says that Moore said a small highway marker sign, in front of the TSBD.
The twin cluster sign stand a half car length past the signals has nothing but highway markers, about 14 of them.
The Thornton sign is not a small highway marker, but as u say it has 6 little highway markers below.
Strange, the last time i looked at the FBI report it had two errors, it nominated the Thornton sign,
&, it had Moore standing near the wrong corner, someone has doctored the wording.
Moore said he was standing 6 or 8 paces out into the intersection from the southeast corner.
And, he said he could see all of the action down Elm St, subject of course as u say to being blocked by Queen Mary & Co.
And, if the JFK limo had just then straightened on Elm, then the question of judging distance doesnt rear its ugly head.
Is Thornton a Freeway or is it a turnpike? Or is Stemmons a turnpike, praps a long way further north.
The furtherest sign says that there is some kind of turnpike before Fort Worth.
Oswald shot-1. JFK at distance one limo length past the signals. Ricochets off western side of western signal arm guy rod. Hull found at SN.
Oswald shot-1. Oswald fired at T137 which is say Z112, slug lands at T138 ie Z113, noise arrives at T139 ie Z114.
Max Holland says shot-1 was at time Z107-8.
Dale Myers says that shot-1 was at i think T150 or some silly such late number. No it was at T138.
Oswald shot-1. A spray of fine lead hits the back of JFK's head (XRays).
Remnant slug makes non-round hole in limo floor (photo), & probly hits driveshaft & road (& aint found).
The FMJ broke in 2 as is usual (CE567 CE569 found in limo).
Oswald shot-2. JFK at time & distance Z218 (the magic bullet)(found). Hull found at SN.
Hickey shot-1. JFK at time & distance Z313, blows some of JFK's head off (small lead fragments found in head)'
Hickey shot-1. Remnant slug veered 6 deg & cracked glass (& aint found).
Hickey shot-2. JFK at time Z316 (slug makes dent in chrome trim)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-3. JFK at time Z319 (slug hits tarmac Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-4. JFK at time Z321 (slug hits curb Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-5. JFK at time Z324 (slug hits grass)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-6. JFK at time Z327 (if Hickey fired 6 shots)(slug hits curb Main St)(possibly wounded Tague).
(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/ba/5CbPyY7I_o.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif) From the Pat Speer site. | (https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/3c/hIIVCKtq_o.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif) From the Pat Speer site. |
None of the 5 or 6 hulls are found. They must have somehow stayed in Queen Mary, & were picked up by Agents on the way to Parklands, & secreted.
The AR15 01 fired at 400 rps (but zero footages on youtube) & would have ejected the hulls say half the distance of modern AR15's which fired at 1200 rps (when autos were still legal)(lots of footages of ejections & ejaculations on youtube).
Your "singular" semantic argument gets 0 out of 10 from me.
Likewise your "Thornton" argument gets 0 out of 10.
I will give u a 10 out of 10 for the FBI report having the correct SE corner (it must have been me that was confused by Moore's word "cater").
I will give u 1 out of 10 for saying that Towner stopped filming before shot-1, if indeed she ever said that.
But i remember her saying that she couldnt recall whether it was just before or just after.
And my film analysis says JFK was on Oswald's sight line to the signal arm at T137, slug arives at T138, sound arrives at T139, Towner finishes at T142 which is 3 frames after, but allowing 1 frame to reach Towner's brain, & allowing 1 frame for the ear part of the brain to tell the Towner part of the brain, then Towner "hears" shot-1 at T141, almost a draw.
I will give u 10 out of 10 for saying that Donahue drew Hickey high up to not only help his needed wound traject but also to get clearance over the windshield.
I have previously shown in my "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode" thread that the AR15 needed to be more than 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground), not Donahue's 18" (cant remember his exact number)(here i did not look into Donahue's wound trajectory).
The Bronson frame supposedly showing Hickey sitting at Z313 i have explained to be later than Z313. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/ba/5CbPyY7I_o.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif) From the Pat Speer site. | (https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/3c/hIIVCKtq_o.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif) From the Pat Speer site. |
And Hickey was half standing in that Bronson frame, Bennett was the one sitting low down.
I have explained all of that in my Bronson threads.
The superior 2019 Bronson frame (of that there inferior 2017 Bronson frame from Robin Unger's gallery) shows that the AR15 was rapidly swinging up at 45 deg. The frame that u tout that sinks the Hickey theory actually reinforces the Hickey theory.
I dont know why Zapruder & many others did not hear shot-1 being at Z113. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
But many (including i think Zapruder) said that the first shot was at Z210 to Z230.
I think that this deafness might have been due to peer pressure & the passage of time.
And due to FBI etc pressure pushing questions & even answers the way they liked.
U will recall that the FBI could have questioned everyone near the signals etc but they questioned very few.
And these A-grade witnesses were asked questions such as "did u see anyone strange in the TSBD".
And "where were u standing".
And "how many shots did u hear".
Thank u mam, that will be all, oh, just one more thing, "what did u have for breakfast".
I forgive Donahue for his silly drawing. He is one of my heroes, having found that Hickey fired the headshot.
And Max Holland is a hero, for finding that shot-1 ricocheted off the signals (& i forgive Max for being a LNer).
And Colin McLaren is a hero (alltho i cant remember what his contribution was)(i think his only contribution was to draw attention to Donahue & Holland).
And i am a hero,
for finding that Hickey fired a plurality of shots, alltho Floyd Boring was the one who first mentioned it many years ago, albeit to poo poo the possibility that Hickey fired, he said that if Hickey fired he almost certainly would have had the AR15 in AUTO, & that Hickey would have fired 2 or 3 shots not 1 shot. However i didnt know of Boring until this week. I figured it out myself. Anyhow that's my theory. It can be called mental ejaculation.
I bring certain skills. My background includes road design. Traffic accident analysis. Design of drain inlets & systems. Surveying. Design, drawing, drafting, CAD. Hence i find it easy to
look into much of this stuff.
Mostly i reckon that i can spot the difference tween truth & camel spombleprofglidnoctobuns. Otherwise i would be a CTer or a LNer.
You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.
Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."
At 1:20 Connally says …… "we had just turned the corner, we heard a shot…."
Notice that Connally is confused, he thinks that JFK had been badly wounded by the first shot, but in fact JFK & Connally had been both hit by the magic bullet ie the 2nd shot at Z218.
You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.My only memory of Tina re shot-1 is that (i think it was in a modern youtube interview) she said that she wasn’t sure whether just before or just after. I have no knowledge of any other wordage, & i am surprised that she said a few second after or four sec after. Back in february i spent a whole day analysing the JFK pozzy relative to the painted white striped lane lines & i found that JFK was on the Carcano to signal arm line at Towner T137, slug hit at T138, sound hit at T139. And Tina would have "heard" at say T141. And T142 was her last frame. A very accurate 3D analysis might show that my geometry calculations were out a foot or two, which would equate to a frame or two.
Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."
I have drawn proper drawings. The AR15 needed to be at least 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground). And i have shown that the AR15 in Donahue's drawing (which is drawn 10" higher than the windshield) would be at chest height on Hickey if Hickey were standing on carpet.Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/ba/5CbPyY7I_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site. (https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/3c/hIIVCKtq_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
Sorry but the frame presented by Pat Speer is indeed the Bronson frame that corresponds to Z313.Now, that is the only legitimate concern arising from all of your wordage. I was thinking yesterday that i needed to have another look at where Z313 sits in the Bronson footage. Months ago i worked out that that Bronson frame was at about Z315. That’s a tight squeeze but do-able if Hickey fired one shot, ie Hickey would be standing at Z313 & sitting at Z315. But yesterday i was thinking that my theory that Hickey fired an auto burst of 6 shots needed that Bronson frame to be at say Z329. I will have to re-visit that stuff.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/34/2f/UGCctw94_o.jpg)I dealt with this stuff in my Reply#37 in my thread re "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?". Here is the drawing, & today i added the yellow & green lines. When Hickey was half sitting half standing on the 2 leather cases on the back seat the top of Hickey's head was level with the bottom of the heads of the standing Agents (see yellow ovals).
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Kenneth Weissman (KSW Consulting LLC) analysis 2020.
In this Bronson frame, Hickey is about a half-head higher and to camera-right of Bennett, Bennett being the figure above the camera-right crack of the rear door in the superimposed Donahue drawing. A rifle held at Hickey's shoulder level would fire a bullet to Kennedy's skull that would go through the Queen Mary's windshield.
Yes, a website had an arrow for Hickey that pointed to Bennett.
Weissman used a better-quality frame and determined the linear "rifle" features in an earlier frame capture were "some grain clumping".I dealt with all of this in my thread re "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?". The superior 2019 copy shown by Weissman in fact supports my theory, koz we can see a rapidly swinging upwards AR15, which supports my theory that Hickey was rapidly falling backwards. And it proves that the AR15 sitting up at 45 deg in the 2017 copy is not an artifact.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/57/8e/ObpwgdON_o.jpg)
Marilyn Sitzman, who steadied Zapruder and would have heard the sound of the camera motor, said:If 99% of witness wordage is false then no theory survives without dismissing the contrary wordage. But any such dismissing needs to be logical. Sitzman appears to me to be one of the better witnesses. However there were lots of witnesses that heard a very early shot.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
"and just as the motorcycles ... started down the hill, he started taking
pictures then ... There was nothing unusual until the first sound."
You get to dismiss testimony and opinion contrary to your pet theory because authorities were disingenuous.
And those "heroes" have statues with manure spreaders for pedestals. It's your theory that's a zero. You're a pseudo-fence-sitter. Like the "Independent" voter who actually favors one party but are just too lazy or disingenuous to give an answer. They think it makes them more "clever" and "open-minded" than the Decided.I haven't spent much time studying the LNer versus CTer stuff (so yes i am lazy). Hickeyians like myself are i suppose CUers, ie we believe that there was a coverup re Hickey. In effect Oswald was a lone nutter, who fired 2 shots. And in effect there was a conspiracy, but after the fact.
Hi Marjan. This bedside interview is a great reminder of the fact that John Connally had a near death experience and may not be the best witness in the world. Someone told me a few months ago to completely ignore everything he said because he was too confused to be reliable and Nellie Connally had groomed him into believing what she heard which was two shots in quick succession with the first hitting JFK and the second hitting Connally.Yes Connally was one of the best witnesses. But as u say his wordage did wander a little over the weeks & years. But he in effect supports shot-1 being at the signals.
On the other hand he did mention looking back at JFK which he definitely did do in the Zapruder film by frame Z275:
However, most people think he was hit by Z225 (Connally himself studied the Z-film for the Warren Commission and said he was hit by Z230). I feel some of his statements ring true, but others are confused (such as he said he looked over to his left at JFK, when actually he looked over to his right).
Yes Connally was one of the best witnesses. But as u say his wordage did wander a little over the weeks & years. But he in effect supports shot-1 being at the signals.
Nellie was a horrible witness. Jackie was worse.
Notice in the croft photo at Z161 that Jackie & Connally are unhappy. Why? Koz shot-1 has been at the signals at Z113, ie 2.6 sec earlier.
Re shot-2, this i say was at Z218, ie when Connally is halfway throo the Stemmons sign. Base on him looking right then beginning to rotate left. Z218 is the only frame that shows this. Yes i know it duznt show this koz Connally is hidden at Z218, so lets put it another way, it is the only frame that duznt not show it.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/croft~0.jpg)
An early shot before the Zapruder film starts is an interesting idea, and well worth exploring, but I have struggled to find evidence in favour of it from the 1963/4 witness statements. Max Holland and others did a brilliant job about ten years ago interviewing the elderly surviving witnesses, but their 50 year old memories were clearly foggy and not of forensic quality.I dont remember Pierce Allman. One thing, he says they turned the corner & boom. Which supports a shot at the signals.
For example, Pierce Allman gave a very detail account of what he heard within hours of the assassination:
This is a very useful statement as he was so close to the TSBD, and he saw JFK duck after the first shot (as we see in the Z-film after Z225). Sadly the ravages of time have taken their toll on Allman's memory and he has started substituting other peoples accounts, and what the Z-film shows, into his own recollections:
He is not alone, and other witnesses are just as bad (e.g. Jean Hill). The moral of the tale is to use early detailed witness statements if there are any, and ignore any contradictory statements made many years later.
In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180. Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point. Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot.
A shot fired at Z218 for the so called single bullet theory does have a fair amount of supporting evidence, such as the jiggle in the Z-film at Z227-Z235, which is perfectly consistent with a 9 frame delayed reaction (which closely mirrors the 8 frame delay after the Z310 shot which massively affected the Z-film at Z318 and later). With the victims reacting just after frame Z224, this again is a close match to Z218 as it would take 3-4 frames or longer for the victims to react (humans don't react instantly to things like this, so 100-200 ms reaction time is normal for the human nervous system to react).
The HSCA said the single bullet theory shot was around Z190 (based on the jiggle analysis and the dictabelt), but this requires a 2 second delayed reaction, which I think is slightly implausible (although not impossible). A missed shot at Z190 and the SBT at Z220 is also consistent with what John Connally said regarding a 2 second delay between the first and second shots (2:30 into the video):
I dont remember Pierce Allman. One thing, he says they turned the corner & boom. Which supports a shot at the signals.
Many witnesses mention an early shot. Moore is the best. Whatley is good.
If u search Weissman u will find his report on reactions which indicate a shot at the signals.
The hole in the floor of the limo is a good witness.
https://topekatornado.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/the-Bronson-Kennedy-assasination-film-investigation-Report.v2.1.pdf
An interesting report by kenneth s weissman -- "report: the bronson kennedy assassination film investigation" -- which says that Robin Unger's 2017 frames of Bronson's film (ie the ones i am using) are not as good as the 2019 frames.
Connally is a very good witness. He never saw JFK or JFK's reaction at any time i think.
Connally heard 2 shots i think, ie both of Oswald's 2 shots. I think he missed hearing Hickey's shots.
Strangely in 1966 he is talking about there being 2 seconds tween shots, when in 1963 he mentions a span of 5 seconds & then another 5 seconds ie 10 or 11 seconds in all, which duznt jell with his statement that he heard only 2 shots.
So many contradictions it makes my brain hurt.
Yes, i explained the reaction times for shot-2 in my thread Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2861.0.html
You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person. Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?I quote Whatley in my Reply#27. I found his words in another forum, i forget which. But i remember that there was no followup discussion worth mentioning. Whatley is still alive & active on forums today i think.
In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired. The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:Moore did not mention the Thornton sign, as explained in my Reply#23 31 33 34 35 38.
Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.
One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him. In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310. This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.There was mention of JFK raising his arms re shot-1 & also re shot-2. U can see JFK with a raised right arm in the Towner footage, ie at the signals, which i have shown in Reply#12.
Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.
Here is a copy of some of the wordage from the forum that i cant find.
.....................closer than him said they heard 3 shots and they are damn sure of it
Randy Harris 1 year ago
Vern Pascal let's say it's TRUE he was right under the window what the hell does that prove absolutely nothing the first shot missed the second shot that hit Kennedy and went through connally was at 59 yards head shot 88 yards so people had a better vantage point than him if what he is saying is true and I have no reason to believe him
dpitd 1 year ago
And??
1 Michael Barnhart 4 years ago
He did hear 4 sounds - the first two gunshots, then the simultaneous sound of a rifle shot with the sound of the bullet exploding the hard surface of Kennedy's skull. Those who were close enough have all related that - that explains the "boom-boom" effect that they heard on that 3rd shot. People who were farther away heard 3 shots but not the sound of the skull explosion.
Eduardo Flores 3 years ago
Michael Barnhart nope Mr Holland heard four shots.
Vern Pascal 3 years ago
Worell was damn near under the window. Holland and other RR Workers were on the horizontal on the Triple Underpass, so let's not hear any nonsense about echoes.
Howard Whatley 3 years ago (edited)
i was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots i was about 25 ft. east of tsbd. you could tell the difference 1 shot was low kinda muffled
came just as the limo got straight on elm i'm sure it missed
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
that's right,and the two were different sounds the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second sounded lower in tone but louder.iv'e filled many deer and hogs ,and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle,sometimes a popping sound is conman
Dallas Brubaker 3 years ago (edited)
Howard Whatley, You were in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-1963 at 12"30 pm cst?
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
right strictly by chance,i didn't even know he was coming until the told us at the courthouse.went there to get manage licence.never spoke much about it.went back to camp Pendleton sunday came back home in jan. 1964. my wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.there's a couple things i never heard anyone mention what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.will say without any doubt there were more than three shots and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle.
Vern Pascal 2 years ago
That's interesting Howard-more witnesses heard shots from the knol/underpass than the TSBD.
Eduardo Flores 2 years ago
No he didn't..!
Rob Rob 2 months ago
@Howard Whatley Was there a fear factor in Dallas that witnesses that did not align with the 3 shot line shooter explanation were in danger?
Tina Towner Pender is on facebook. I spent an hour or two looking for the youtube of her saying that the first shot was just after or just before she stopped filming. Shot-1 was as i said at frame T141 (in her ear)(at T137 from the Carcano's muzzle's point of view), & she stopped filming at T142. The youtube was of her standing on the corner talking, at one of the 50th anniversaries or some such thing, i might find it one day.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d6/38/lj5q5CTx_o.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif) Life, November 24, 1967 |
Yes it is splitting hairs, but i definitely remember a youtube of Tina saying that she woznt sure whether she stopped filming just before the first shot or just after. I think it woz in the context of talking to max Holland, in which case Tina might have said that just to make Max happy, i can understand that.“Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in --
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d6/38/lj5q5CTx_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Life, November 24, 1967
the loudest crack of a rifle I had ever heard! At that time I had
the least notion it was a gun. The truth of the matter was that
I thought it was a firecracker."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- Teen Magazine, June 1968
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
"I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been
that she said the first shot came just a second or two after she
stopped filming. However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history,
Tina said it was four to six seconds. So either I have mis-
remembered, which is possible, or her memory has changed."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- Email, Gary Mack to Andrew Mason, March 1, 2007
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
"Tina has always said, and we've been good friends since 1978,
the first shot came right after she stopped filming. She has
always believed the first shot came within a second or two."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- Email, Gary Mack to Dale K. Myers, November 21, 2011
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
"I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another
photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot
sounded only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- "Tina Towner: My Story", 2012 book
That's just silly. The location of fragments tells you nothing about where somebody was aiming or who it was. And there is ZERO evidence of this alleged ricochet off the traffic light.There is a youtube of tests done on (i think Oswald kind of) bullets ricocheting off (signal arm kind of) steel tube.
You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person. Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?Your points are well taken. The evidence does not support an first shot before Betzner's z186 photo.
In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired. The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/betzner_3_crop.jpg)
Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.
One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him. In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310. This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.
Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1rnPYtv1XKkICgLqDcp2eE60UNbcVM-WQ) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=10VgRfgGIx84r4LhHB7GYMIlpmZbBdaJ0) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Moore heard three shots but only saw the President during the first shot; Prior to reaching the Thornton sign, where does Kennedy "slump"? |
Moore saw that shot-1 was when JFK was just past the signals, not when near the Thornton sign (the FBI wrongly mentioned the Thornton sign).
Hence in fact Moore confirms that Oswald's shot-1 was at say Z113 (or even earlier as per Holland).
Anyhow, JFK duznt slump here, but he raises his right hand/arm, koz small lead fragments ricochet into the right-back of his head (seen in xrays).
Hence, if the FBI were wrong re the Thornton sign, then we might add that it was the FBI that wrongly mentioned that Moore couldnt see JFK for the next 2 shots.
Or, Moore was wrong (if the FBI report aint wrong).
I doubt that Moore could see throo the 10 agents -- 5 sitting low, 1 sitting hi (Hickey), and 4 standing -- in Queen Mary!
Plus could he see throo the raised sun shades on the windshield.
Plus there is a serious crest, where Elm St starts to fall (5.8%), and hence Moore (standing say 60 ft east of the crest) has an effective eye height of only say 3 ft 0 in instead of 5 ft 6 in.
Hence Moore probly couldnt see JFK at Oswald's shot-2, at Z218, nor when JFK very slightly slumps after Z218.
Just before Z313 the gawkers standing on the south west corner of Elm & Houston run out onto Elm St (& Tina Towner runs out too), and hence they block Moore's view of JFK at the last shot(s) at Z313 & just before Z313, ie Hickey's shots-1234 & probly a shot-5, & possibly a shot-6.
And re JFK slumping, this would have been well after Z313, eg Z333.
No, Moore never saw JFK slump.
Moore saw that shot-1 was when JFK was just past the signals, not when near the Thornton sign (the FBI wrongly mentioned the Thornton sign).But it is not just Moore who put the first shot when JFK was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, which was about z200. Linda Willis put the first shot when JFK was on her sight line to the Stemmons sign, which puts it between z195 and z205. The occupants of the VP car said the car had just finished the turn onto Elm. It is still turning when last seen at z180. Betzner said his z186 photo was before the first shot - he was turning the film to take another when it sounded. Occupants of the VP follow up car said they were just finishing the turn and about parallel to the TSBD when the first shot sounded. It is still turning and pointing toward the TSBD when last seen at z191. Other witnesses along Elm described where JFK was in relation to where they were standing when the first shot sounded. They all converge around z200. Not a single witness said JFK continued to smile and wave after the first shot. Over 20 said he reacted immediately.
Hence in fact Moore confirms that Oswald's shot-1 was at say Z113 (or even earlier as per Holland).
But it is not just Moore who put the first shot when JFK was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, which was about z200.
Linda Willis put the first shot when JFK was on her sight line to the Stemmons sign, which puts it between z195 and z205.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_willis04.jpg) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_willis05crop.jpg) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) (Crop) |
Yes Willis claimed the shot caused him to snap the shutter, but he can't have it that way AND claim that Mrs. Kennedy reacted during the interval. |
Moore said the car was on this side of the Thornton sign, meaning it hadn't reached it. You really think Moore could calculate the President was exactly perpendicular to the Thornton sign when Moore was almost directly behind the President?According to his statement, he said "By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car." I wasn't there. I don't see why he would not be able to see that.
The Willis girl apparently got her signs mixed up. Perhaps influenced by her father's slide that featured the Stemmons sign. Her father, BTW, said the first shot occurred between his slide at Z133 and Z202. It made, he said, Mrs. Kennedy look from his side of the street to the opposite side.
According to his statement, he said "By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car." I wasn't there. I don't see why he would not be able to see that.
BUT we don't have to rely on just him. There are at least 20 other witnesses who said that JFK moved left or slumped or assumed a blank look or clutched at his neck etc. (different vantage points) immediately after the first shot. He did that just after z200. Not a single witness said he smiled and waved for 2-3 seconds as you insist he did.
Also, the shot pattern with the last two shots close together in rapid succession means that JFK was hit by the first shot.
I know you think all that evidence is mistaken
but I don't think that many witnesses can possibly be independently mistaken in exactly the same way (let alone that they were).
Right. Another witness whose evidence must be wrong in order to cling to the SBT.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1q5awR3H0RJCh6pnpBbRSpLrBZzbsuBLm)Hickey in rear of Queen Mary begins to lean & look near the rear tyre at Z144 -- which supports shot-1 being at Z113.
The leftward head turns of JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally visible in the earliest Zapruder frames were almost exactly simultaneous. JFK begins to turn his head left at Z140. Mrs. Kennedy begins to turn her head left at Z142. Hickey begins to look left and downwards, starting at Z143/144. At Z149, Connally begins to turn his head left. JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally begin their leftward head movements within ½ second of each other. This simultaneity suggests that the leftward head turns of these four people were probably due to the same cause.
The Governor said he turn to his right when he heard the first shot, not to his left. Mrs. Kennedy made her head turn more to the left because she was engaged with the taking of the photo by Robert Croft.Roselle & Scearce point out that Zapruder shows that Connally turned his head left (at Z150) & then turned his head right.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_croft~0.jpg)
Hickey said he looked right, not to his left, in reaction to the first shot.
"After a very short distance I heard a loud report which seemed like a firecracker.
It appeared to come from my right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground
level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it."
Hickey doesn't say he looked to the pavement on his left.
In her book Tina Towner, page 7, she states: “ ...but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.”Yes i saw that footage too. Tina said that she stopped filming just before or just after the first shot. She was standing at that corner when talking. It wasnt long ago, some anniversary. At other times she has said that she stopped filming a couple of seconds before the shot, & even 4 seconds before. Anyhow i had a long look for that footage, but couldnt find it.
I believe I have seen a video in which she said that the first shot sounded just about the time that she stopped filming. I don’t remember which video. But I will point it out if I come across it again.
Regardless, she didn’t time it with a stopwatch.
I might as well add, Hickey was sitting up on 2 leather cases, the big one was for praps the AR15, the small one praps for ammo.
Your points are well taken. The evidence does not support an first shot before Betzner's z186 photo.
However, while many witnesses recalled a shot pattern with two shots in rapid succession, the vast majority (over 40) specifically recalled the last two shots in rapid succession. See my compilation of these witnesses (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/shot_pattern_excerpt.PDF).
What this evidence tells us is that there was only one shot before the midpoint between shots 1 and 3 with the first shot not being before z186 and the last shot at z312-3
(https://i.ibb.co/yQdMNXy/hickey-in-betzner-possible-position.jpg)Here is a pix of the cases.
For what it's worth, Hickey might have been propped against the cases, with his feet on the floor, up against the jump-seat.
There is no evidence of a second gunman @Dealey.We can start with 5 bits of evidence that there was a second gunman.
Hi Andrew. I agree with you, there were dozens of witnesses who referred to the final two shots being closer than the first two. There is an important issue about whether the head shot was the last shot, and what exactly the gap was between the final two shots. For example, some witnesses you mentioned in your analysis referred to a ratio of 2 to 1 between the gap lengths, so this could be 3 seconds and 1.5 seconds, or 6 seconds and 3 seconds (as suggested by Ralph Yarborough and Arnold Rowland respectively). In the Zapruder film we see the gap between JFK being hit by the two shots is about 5-7 seconds depending on exactly when he was hit during Z190-Z220, which suggests that if Arnold Rowland was close to the truth then the final shot was fired around Z360-Z400 which went wild as the Presidential limo was accelerating out of danger at that point (maybe this was the bullet which hit Tague via the kerb on Main Street?).Here are the timings for Oswald's shot-1 & shot-2 & for a faux shot-3.
By contrast we have other witnesses who say that the two shots fired were both fired so rapidly they were almost simultaneously fired at the time of the head shot (as suggested by George Hickey and Sam Holland). It's hard to know the exact time frame, but it seems too rapid for a single bolt action gun to have been used (a pair of shots fired in less than 2-3 seconds probably means a second gunman was involved).
Clearly dozens of witnesses did not hear a shot after the head shot, but by contrast many definitely did hear a shot after the head shot (such as Charles Brehm and Emmett Hudson who were very close to the limo and saw the explosion we see at Z313). In addition, some witnesses like Mary Moorman and Jean Hill heard two shots after the head shot, so I am fairly certain there was at least one shot well after what we see at Z313 in the Zapruder film. I think many witnesses failed to register this final shot (or two) because they were running away in terror and were simply unaware of events due to the unfolding chaos (including a very loud siren being emitted from the Secret Service follow up car).
In summary, I find it hard to be 100% certain about whether there were 3 or more shots fired in total due to the very split witnesses. However, I am 100% certain that there were only 3 bursts of gunfire as nobody reported a fourth burst. Even AJ Millican who reported 8 shots grouped them into a pattern of 3-2-3. Naturally lone nut believers say he was confused by echoes, and conspiracy believers say each burst had a pair of shots in it. Without concrete physical evidence either way it feels rather moot, so I find it difficult to commit either way on the total number of shots fired.
It's just that most of your "didn't see the President smile" witnesses were behind the President. So--from a defense attorney standpoint--you're "correct". Mary Woodward was off to the side and said the President didn't slump until the second shot.No. She said:
"While it is true that a majority of ear-witnesses reported that the second andI am not sure what qualifies Myers to provide statistics but if as many as 39% of ear witnesses specifically mentioned the shot spacing (my numbers are 61 out of 178) that just tells us that they may have thought other things were more important like the number of shots. Many who did not state a pattern, nevertheless grouped the shots as one and then two more. Many may have recalled the number of shots precisely because they recalled it in two groups like that. Myers should give us his numbers. I get 45 who heard 1......2...3. That may be 45 out of 178 total witnesses but it is 75% of those who recalled a pattern.
third shots were closer than the first and second, only 39% of respondents
mentioned the spacing of the shots at all. Sixty-one percent didn’t mention
(or were never asked about) the spacing of the shots. Of those who did,
5% thought the first two were closer together, 25% thought the last two were
closer together, and 9% though the shots were evenly spaced.
One-quarter is hardly a meaningful percentage given the great pool of total
ear-witnesses"
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Dale K Myers (Dec20-2007)
Hold on, cowboy. It's your interpretation of the evidence that I find wrong.I am avoiding interpretation. I am taking their statements at face-value. That is not an interpretation.
I've explained that to you countless times. If the witnesses arrived in Dealey Plaza anticipating they were about to hear three loud reports and to register in their minds the time span between each one, then that "shot pattern" consensus might have some footing. And aren't you saying the even-spacing and longer-pause-between-one-and-two witnesses are mistaken?Look at their statements. The ten who thought they were "about equally spaced" or the six who thought that they heard the reverse pattern were vague about it and/or very close to the events.
Why would anyone begin to take stock of the length of time between shots one and two, if most (it seems) thought the first shot was just a "backfire" or "firecracker"? No reason whatsoever to anticipate a second loud report. But when they heard the second loud report, naturally their cognizant functions heightened. They're weren't dumbstruck or anything; just when questioned later on, arrived at a perfectly understandable false memory. There's also the question of whether the siren was activated between shots two and three, which--with all the other stuff unfolding--could make the one-to-two shot span seem pretty ordinary and remote.This just goes to show that it is you who is doing the interpretation and not taking the evidence at face value. Your arguments are not evidence.
So Linda Willis was lying? Why could she not see the President? She was standing up on a step. She was 14 years old.
No. What I showed was empirical evidence that Linda Willis could not possible see the President when he was between her and the Stemmons sign. The empirical evidence shows she could see without obstruction the President when he was between her and the Thornton sign. I'm sorry this undermines your Pet Theory.
BTW, you're so anti-SBT, you might as well come out of the closet and be a conspiracy nut. :DThat only makes sense IF the SBT was essential to the LN conclusion. It isn't. It was the biggest mistake of the WC because the lack of evidence for it and the abundant conflicting evidence feeds CTs. The fact is that a shot at z271 fits Oswald firing all three shots. 4.15 seconds and 2.3 seconds between shots. And, as I have said many times Jerry, your ad hominem approach just makes your arguments look even weaker.
Hi Andrew. I agree with you, there were dozens of witnesses who referred to the final two shots being closer than the first two. There is an important issue about whether the head shot was the last shot, and what exactly the gap was between the final two shots. For example, some witnesses you mentioned in your analysis referred to a ratio of 2 to 1 between the gap lengths, so this could be 3 seconds and 1.5 seconds, or 6 seconds and 3 seconds (as suggested by Ralph Yarborough and Arnold Rowland respectively). In the Zapruder film we see the gap between JFK being hit by the two shots is about 5-7 seconds depending on exactly when he was hit during Z190-Z220, which suggests that if Arnold Rowland was close to the truth then the final shot was fired around Z360-Z400 which went wild as the Presidential limo was accelerating out of danger at that point (maybe this was the bullet which hit Tague via the kerb on Main Street?).Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots and definitely recalled the last shot striking JFK in the head. He said that the second shot did not appear to hit JFK. It appeared to miss. All he saw was the hair on the right of JFK's head fly up at the time the second shot sounded. Guess where that occurs?
By contrast we have other witnesses who say that the two shots fired were both fired so rapidly they were almost simultaneously fired at the time of the head shot (as suggested by George Hickey and Sam Holland). It's hard to know the exact time frame, but it seems too rapid for a single bolt action gun to have been used (a pair of shots fired in less than 2-3 seconds probably means a second gunman was involved).
Clearly dozens of witnesses did not hear a shot after the head shot,It was not a matter of not hearing a shot after the head shot. It is a matter of hearing and/or seeing the head shot as the third of the three shots. The Connallys, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Bennett, and McIntyre all recalled the head shot as the third shot. Hill recalled it as the last of two shots that he recalled but believes, based on what other agents said, that there was a second shot while he was running beside the left front of the QM.
No.
She said:
- "Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit by the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they too didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun.
Then after a moment's pause there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car.
This was followed rapidly by another shot."
Besides you are cherry-picking her statement.
One thing she was very clear on was that the last two shots were closer together. That necessarily means that JFK reacted to the first shot.
She also made it clear that the first shot occurred after they had engaged the President with their cheers and after he passed by. They were standing opposite JFK at about z190.
The slumping she referred to may have been the slump after the head shot. As she said in her later statement to the FBI:
7Dec63 - FBI statement
- "Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy were about 100 feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President Kennedy fall over....
I am not sure what qualifies Myers to provide statistics but if as many as 39% of ear witnesses specifically mentioned the shot spacing (my numbers are 61 out of 178) that just tells us that they may have thought other things were more important like the number of shots. Many who did not state a pattern, nevertheless grouped the shots as one and then two more. Many may have recalled the number of shots precisely because they recalled it in two groups like that. Myers should give us his numbers. I get 45 who heard 1......2...3. That may be 45 out of 178 total witnesses but it is 75% of those who recalled a pattern.I am avoiding interpretation. I am taking their statements at face-value. That is not an interpretation.
Look at their statements. The ten who thought they were "about equally spaced" or the six who thought that they heard the reverse pattern were vague about it and/or very close to the events.
This just goes to show that it is you who is doing the interpretation and not taking the evidence at face value. Your arguments are not evidence.
So Linda Willis was lying? Why could she not see the President? She was standing up on a step. She was 14 years old.
That only makes sense of the SBT was essential to the LN conclusion. It isn't. It was the biggest mistake of the WC because the lack of evidence for it and the abundant conflicting evidence feeds CTs. The fact is that a shot at z271 fits Oswald firing all three shots. 4.15 seconds and 2.3 seconds between shots.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1BG-WZjaNHzIjOS5DNJ-WvXhZWG58bK32)
The bullet struck the 5th rib. You have drawn it as though the bullet struck the rib on Connalys back rather than his front. I though the bullet broke Connllys rib on the front side of his body?
The bullet struck the 5th rib. You have drawn it as though the bullet struck the rib on Connalys back rather than his front. I though the bullet broke Connllys rib on the front side of his body?According to the medical evidence, the bullet struck the fifth rib in the back near the scapula (shoulder blade) and just medial to the right axilla (armpit) fold (Shaw 6H85). There was a fracture of the fifth rib 4 cm to the right of the spine. This was noticed by Dr. Shaw afterward from the xrays and is mentioned in his HSCA testimony (1HSCA261). This fracture was caused by the bullet causing the rib to flex as there was nothing that struck JBC near the spine. In order to cause the rib to move, the bullet must apply force to the rib for a bit of time. This is not the result of the bullet passing through the rib but of striking it where it entered and following along the rib until it broke through the bone. Once it broke through the bone, the flexing force on the upper rib ended.
The graphic is for Mason's Pet Theory only. It shows the entry point where I believe the HSCA showed it.Nice graphics, Jerry. But, as usual, you have everything wrong.
Sure, move the bullet impact more towards the front of the rib. But not too much or the bullet will be going through the right arm. The trajectory won't work for Mason's Pet Theory no matter where it strikes the rib.
(Personally I think the actual rib strike was more tangential. It's Mason's Pet Theory that has the bullet striking so nose-on.)
According to the medical evidence, the bullet struck the fifth rib in the back near the scapula (shoulder blade) and just medial to the right axilla (armpit) fold (Shaw 6H85). There was a fracture of the fifth rib 4 cm to the right of the spine. This was noticed by Dr. Shaw afterward from the xrays and is mentioned in his HSCA testimony (1HSCA261). This fracture was caused by the bullet causing the rib to flex as there was nothing that struck JBC near the spine. In order to cause the rib to move, the bullet must apply force to the rib for a bit of time. This is not the result of the bullet passing through the rib but of striking it where it entered and following along the rib until it broke through the bone. Once it broke through the bone, the flexing force on the upper rib ended.
Nice graphics, Jerry. But, as usual, you have everything wrong.
First of all, the bullet missed JFK's head on his right side.
Second, you do not allow for the fact that JFK had moved significantly to his left by z271.
Third, you seem to think that JBC was turned completely 90 degrees. But his chest is facing Zapruder so his shoulders are turned about 65-70 degrees.
Fourth, you have his wrist too high. The bullet exited through his right jacket pocket and passed through the end of his jacket cuff and through the french cuff of his shirt.
The wrist is pronated so that the back of his wrist (not the side of his wrist) is pressed against the chest (not his neck as you have it). The end of his jacket cuff over the back of his wrist cannot be seen as it is pressed against his right jacket pocket.
(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jaynes2/jbcjackt.jpg) | (https://www.lubbockonline.com/storyimage/TX/20131016/NEWS/310169864/AR/0/AR-310169864.jpg) |
I know you don't agree with my position, but in order to try to "refute" it, you have to follow the evidence. You are just making stuff up. In order to refute the evidence of a second shot around z271 striking JBC you have to recreate the positions of the men accurately.
Since the best evidence is a two dimensional low resolution film, we have to estimate a range of possible positions and show the path to the right of JFK's head to JBC's right armpit to the back of his wrist for this range of possible positions.
Wrong. It would go through Kennedy first no matter how much I moved Connally.Have a look at Altgens photo taken at z256. You can see that JBC is in the middle of his seat and is not fully turned. His right shoulder is on a line to the right side of JFK back to the SN. Look at z256:
One of the insets shows the over-head view. And Kennedy is to his left pretty far. You see, the Zapruder film defines where he is placed.We can see in z261 that Jacqueline Kennedy is holding his left elbow and his left hand is up near his neck. So his left elbow is close to the middle of the car. Work out where his midline is from that. It is pretty clear that JFK is left of JBC in both Altgens and the zfilm.
Compare the level of the exit opening to the amount of shirt and necktie knot visible in Z272.The bullet struck the back of the wrist at the end of the jacket cuff, which is located within the yellow square here:
You learn something new everyday in this case. I must pay closer attention to the medical description of this rib break. I read recently that some think pieces of rib exited under connallys nipple and this is why his lapel bulges at z224. This made me think the bullet passed through his chest and burst out his front breaking the rib on the front of his chest as the bullet exited.The bullet basically went around the chest cavity and did not penetrate the pleura (the lining of the chest cavity around the lungs. The bullet did not pass through the lung. Rather it drove shards of bone inward and down through the pleura and into the lower lobe of the lung. The only way that can happen is by impacting the outer surface of the rib and then driving through the rib from the outer surface sending bone pieces inward.
The bullet basically went around the chest cavity and did not penetrate the pleura (the lining of the chest cavity around the lungs. The bullet did not pass through the lung. Rather it drove shards of bone inward and down through the pleura and into the lower lobe of the lung. The only way that can happen is by impacting the outer surface of the rib and then driving through the rib from the outer surface sending bone pieces inward.
Have a look at Altgens photo taken at z256. You can see that JBC is in the middle of his seat and is not fully turned. His right shoulder is on a line to the right side of JFK back to the SN. Look at z256:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z256.jpg)
and z261:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z261.jpg)
and explain to me how JBC's right armpit is to the left side of JFK on a shot from the SN.
It is rather obvious that you are not taking an impartial view of the photographic evidence.
Not only is JBC in the middle of his seat at z271 and that his right armpit is well right of the middle of the seat, but you are maintaining that JFK has hardly moved left at all. you have his right elbow still on the car.
We can see in z261 that Jacqueline Kennedy is holding his left elbow and his left hand is up near his neck. So his left elbow is close to the middle of the car. Work out where his midline is from that.
It is pretty clear that JFK is left of JBC in both Altgens and the zfilm.
The bullet struck the back of the wrist at the end of the jacket cuff, which is located within the yellow square here:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z272_wrist.jpg)
That is at least 6 inches below his tie knot. How far below your tie knot is your right nipple?
I see. So the bullet did not go through the lung. Kinda confusing when people say Connolly's lung collapsed and this is why h1e puffs his cheeks trying to get air. I guess he could be puffing his cheeks from the pain.Connally's lung likely did not collapse until he got out of the car at Parkland. He said he felt no pain until then. The only missile that penetrated the pleura and lung was rib bone shards driven down into the lower lobe of the right lung. Connally kept his right wrist pressed against his chest and Dr. Shaw said that this likely allowed him to breathe en route to Parkland.
Of course you can make it seem that Connally "is not fully turned" if you manipulate the pictures.I am talking about JBC's chest. In case you have not noticed this about the human torso, it twists so that the shoulders turn farther than the upper chest, which turns farther than the abdomen which turns farther than the hips, which are likely facing forward and have not moved.
You have no understanding of parallax and perspective.Ok. Then explain to me how you determine that JFK is NOT left of JBC here:
I don't think so. I think Kennedy and Connally's heads are in a line, and that both are inboard relative to Kellerman. By Z272, Connally's head was a little more inboard than Kennedy's.Oh, right, just like this photo taken about 30 seconds before the first shot shows that they are not in a line with Kellerman:
For adult males, about eight inches from the sternal notch to the nipple. This is within 1/2" of the measurement on my model.I just measured the vertical distance from the top of my tie knot to just below my right nipple: 7.25 inches. Keep in mind that the garments move relative to the body. Even the skin and subcutaneous tissue can move relative to the ribs. You can see this happening when the torso twists. The turn with his right arm jammed between the chest and the seat-back could easily have caused shifts of the clothing. It would indeed be remarkable that the two wounds - the chest exit and the wrist entrance - are virtually touching at z271 if the injuries took place when they were 12 inches apart (let alone not aligned with the SN or the thigh wound).
Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots and definitely recalled the last shot striking JFK in the head. He said that the second shot did not appear to hit JFK. It appeared to miss. All he saw was the hair on the right of JFK's head fly up at the time the second shot sounded. Guess where that occurs?
Brehm does not necessarily describe the headshot as the second shot. He said that JFK's hair flew up on the second shot. That is what Hickey saw as well on the second shot. Brehm was never questioned by the WC. It is difficult to determine what he saw. Hudson gave two statements shortly after the events (November 22 and 25, 1963) and gave a very different statement in his testimony in July 1964. If you go by his first two statements as being the more accurate, he says that JFK slumped on the first shot and the last two shots were in rapid succession. He does not say which of the shots hit the President in the head. He does not even mention a shot hitting the President in the head.
It was not a matter of not hearing a shot after the head shot. It is a matter of hearing and/or seeing the head shot as the third of the three shots. The Connallys, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Bennett, and McIntyre all recalled the head shot as the third shot. Hill recalled it as the last of two shots that he recalled but believes, based on what other agents said, that there was a second shot while he was running beside the left front of the QM.
I am talking about JBC's chest. In case you have not noticed this about the human torso, it twists so that the shoulders turn farther than the upper chest, which turns farther than the abdomen which turns farther than the hips, which are likely facing forward and have not moved.
Ok. Then explain to me how you determine that JFK is NOT left of JBC here:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z261.jpg)
Oh, right, just like this photo taken about 30 seconds before the first shot shows that they are not in a line with Kellerman:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/jfk_front_right_HoustonStreet.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgens5Unger.jpg) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1n-zheQbXZYkntAp8A82cXpouLTQ6JlUY) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1X2yb5u7l9CuouFDagDZdn4ytbyi3emDW) |
I just measured the vertical distance from the top of my tie knot to just below my right nipple: 7.25 inches. Keep in mind that the garments move relative to the body. Even the skin and subcutaneous tissue can move relative to the ribs. You can see this happening when the torso twists. The turn with his right arm jammed between the chest and the seat-back
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1EdeQTf5ZqQUyRfgTTvdx9-TZf6FY5Sn_) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1puh8U06Dfbk5PkcP9Q7yUK9E3JP9aGQn) |
could easily have caused shifts of the clothing. It would indeed be remarkable that the two wounds - the chest exit and the wrist entrance - are virtually touching at z271
if the injuries took place when they were 12 inches apart (let alone not aligned with the SN or the thigh wound).
Also note that in z271 - 275, when the bullet is supposedly exiting JBC's chest and smashing his wrist apart, that his hand doesn't appear to move a fraction of an inch.I am not sure you are right about that. There is a noticeable change in appearance of the wrist because the hat moves significantly there. Here is the difference between two fairly clear frames z268 and z274.
Irrefutable video evidence that the bullet does not exit JBC's chest at this moment.
Can't believe this nonsense is still being peddled.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Mason thinks nothing is going on here with Connally, other than Connally showing concern for Kennedy. | (https://images2.imgbox.com/1d/af/SMRzD833_o.gif) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Mason thinks the strike to the wrist occurred here because the hat moved. (Clip starts with exact moment of Mason's proposed strike to wrist) | Actually the hat as it's held isn't changing much; The change in appearance is because areas are moving out of shade from the roll-bar because Connally is falling back towards Nellie. |
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif)There is a lot going on here. JFK has just been shot. JBC has heard it and recognized it as a rifle shot and realizes an assassination is underway. He immediately wants to see how the President is and turns around to his right. As he does this turn, he yells "Oh, no, no" (which his wife said was before the second shot). This draws Jackie's attention as we can see. Nellie said he turned around to see JFK before the second shot. There is nowhere else where he even tries to turn to see JFK.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason thinks nothing is going on here
with Connally, other than Connally
showing concern for Kennedy.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/1d/af/SMRzD833_o.gif)To be fair, Jerry, I think the strike to the wrist occurred around z270 because:
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason thinks the strike to the wrist
occurred here because the hat moved.
(Clip starts with exact moment of
Mason's proposed strike to wrist)
Actually the hat as it's held isn'tRight. As if we cannot see through the shadow cast by the roof bar. There is no question that there is a change in the posture of JBC his wrist position relative to the hat:
changing much; The change in
appearance is because areas are
moving out of shade from the roll-bar
because Connally is falling back
towards Nellie.
There is a lot going on here. JFK has just been shot. JBC has heard it and recognized it as a rifle shot and realizes an assassination is underway. He immediately wants to see how the President is and turns around to his right. As he does this turn, he yells "Oh, no, no" (which his wife said was before the second shot). This draws Jackie's attention as we can see. Nellie said he turned around to see JFK before the second shot. There is nowhere else where he even tries to turn to see JFK.
To be fair, Jerry, I think the strike to the wrist occurred around z270 because:
1. the vast majority of witnesses who commented on the shot spacing specifically recalled that the last two shots were closer together - in rapid succession.
2. the Connally's insisted that JBC was not hit on the first or third shots.
3. the head shot was the last of the shots
4. there were exactly three shots.
I believe it likely occurred between z271 and z272 because:
1. JBC begins moving forward at z272 and then starts falling back on his wife at about z278
2. Greer said he turned around for the first of his two turns immediately upon (simultaneous with) the second shot. His head is finishing the turn at z281-285.
3. Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots. He is still turned to the rear at z256. He said the first of the last two did not appear to hit JFK as all he saw on the second shot was JFK's hair fly up on his right side. His hair does exactly that from z273-277.
4. There is a noticeable movement of the left sunvisor on between z271 and z272.
5. There is a noticeable change in the appearance of the wrist between z271 and z272.
Now, I could be wrong within a frame or two of z271. We cannot see JBC in z270 and only part of him in z269.
Right. As if we cannot see through the shadow cast by the roof bar. There is no question that there is a change in the posture of JBC his wrist position relative to the hat:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_wrist_268_to_274.gif)
(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jaynes2/jbcjackt.jpg) | (https://www.lubbockonline.com/storyimage/TX/20131016/NEWS/310169864/AR/0/AR-310169864.jpg) |
Look at the position of the bullet hole in Connally's jacket, it is below where the lapel terminates and above the top button.I gather from your response that you are assuming that it is the holes in the clothing rather than in the body that determines where the bullet struck. Why? Or are you suggesting that the yellow dot matches the location of JBC's right nipple?:
This is an approximation of the bullet hole on JBC's jacket on the day of the assassination:
Look at the position of his wrist at z272:
Does it really need explaining that his wrist, just below the knot in his tie, is way to high to be struck by a bullet exiting his chest at this point of the Zfilm?
I gather from your response that you are assuming that it is the holes in the clothing rather than in the body that determines where the bullet struck. Why?
Or are you suggesting that the yellow dot matches the location of JBC's right nipple?
I would also point out that the jacket cuff had bullet hole 1/2 inch wide and 3/8 inch from the end of the sleeve:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_jacket_sleeve_09.jpg)
Since that sleeve end is not seen, we cannot be sure exactly where it was.
It is interesting to note that the shirt cuff had two holes. One hole went from 1/2 inch above the end of the shirt cuff (3 inches from the cuff fold edge) to the end of the cuff (2.5 inches from the cuff fold edge).
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_shirt_sleeve_05.jpg)
If you go 3 inches down from the end of the french cuff and on the side next to the chest, that appears to be where the bullet struck. The bullet appears to have fragmented on striking the radius and the fragments deflecting off the back of the radius passed through the middle of the cuff causing a large irregular tear.
The other hole in the shirt sleeve was a very jagged horizontal hole whose edge was 1 inch from the end of the cuff fold and the other edge was 1 inch from the end of the french cuff (ie. about 2.5 inches from the cuff end):
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_above_shirt_sleeve_06.jpg)
1. JBC begins moving forward at z272 and then starts falling back on his wife at about z278
2. Greer said he turned around for the first of his two turns immediately upon (simultaneous with) the second shot. His head is finishing the turn at z281-285.
3. Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots. He is still turned to the rear at z256. He said the first of the last two did not appear to hit JFK as all he saw on the second shot was JFK's hair fly up on his right side. His hair does exactly that from z273-277.
4. There is a noticeable movement of the left sunvisor on between z271 and z272.
5. There is a noticeable change in the appearance of the wrist between z271 and z272.
(https://static.agriculture.com/s3fs-public/image/2012/09/28/img_5066133225505_26608.jpg) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Saskatchewan Manure Spreader |
You gather incorrectly.It is also below and medial to the exit point on the chest, which was at the level of the fifth rib, just below and slightly medial to the right nipple. Here is the difference:
Go back and look at the images. It is clear the hole in JBC's jacket is way below the wrist position.
There is no way you can explain it away. You can only deny the obvious.It is rather simple, actually. Use the actual location on the body and not the clothing
The cuff of JBC's jacket is clearly seen.Uh, no. That is the edge of the hat, not the jacket cuff. Prior to z272, the hat is covering the view of the jacket cuff. The hat is not directly touching the jacket sleeve. The end of the jacket cuff where the bullet struck is not visible in the zfilm until after z271.
I've put on an arrow to help.
Without realising it you've provided the third piece of evidence highlighting the impossibility of a shot around z270.I am not clear on where you think the bullet struck on the radius. The pre-operative x-ray (CE691) shows this:
In the image above it is clear the end of the jacket sleeve and the french cuff of his shirt don't line up in a way that explains the holes in each. JBC's jacket sleeve is too far down, there is too much of the shirt sleeve showing.
In the above image it is possible to determine where the radius is (at the point where his wrist is flexing, up near the tie knot). The jacket sleeve is a good few inches below this point.
How is it possible for a bullet entering the sleeve of the jacket to shatter the radius?
Answer - it's not.
It is also below and medial to the exit point on the chest, which was at the level of the fifth rib, just below and slightly medial to the right nipple. Here is the difference:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_chest_exit_compare_jacket.gif)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a7/aa/omJLhpSW_o.jpg)Jerry, you are showing the wrist AFTER z271, which is when I say the bullet struck. The bullet created a jagged entrance wound and dragged mohair fibres into the wound. These fibres very likely came from the jacket cuff that the bullet had just passed through. That could easily have changed the relative positions of the jacket sleeve/French cuff/wrist/hand/hat. So why don't you try making your argument based on the position of these things BEFORE z272?
Jerry, you are showing the wrist AFTER z271, which is when I say the bullet struck.
The bullet created a jagged entrance wound and dragged mohair fibres into the wound. These fibres very likely came from the jacket cuff that the bullet had just passed through. That could easily have changed the relative positions of the jacket sleeve/French cuff/wrist/hand/hat. So why don't you try making your argument based on the position of these things BEFORE z272?
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1vIWf3bErYcTG6c1jqQsahH2ijcGwpeo4) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1puh8U06Dfbk5PkcP9Q7yUK9E3JP9aGQn) |
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a7/aa/omJLhpSW_o.jpg)
I know we look at things differently but some of your graphics are off the charts - this is one of them.You are comparing a photo of a twisted turned torso with shoulders skewed to a photo of him standing upright. Here is a better comparison:
There could hardly be a more clear demonstration of the fallacy of Andrew's position.
You are comparing a photo of a twisted turned torso with shoulders skewed to a photo of him standing upright. Here is a better comparison:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib.gif)
I'm not getting any of the images you are posting.
I don't know if it's just me.
Photoimage seems to be the best way to upload images (IMO)
Could be just a temporary sharing or permissions issue. Or your might have to add "http://dufourlaw.com" in the setting for "Exceptions" (if there is such a setting) of your browser and virus checker. The "http" might be the problem; it lacks the "s" for a secure site. Images were off for me for awhile yesterday but today is fine. So the "s" may not be the problem.I use postimage for pix & pdf & gif.
Eventually it works. Mason would email images to you if you were to PM (Personal Message) him here at the Forum. But then he might be off the Forum and not know about your message.
Mason posts every thing using his law firm's site in Saskatchewan. His documents describing his Pet Theory are also posted from there, in PDF form..
Andrew would need an image-hoster that's free, allows direct-linking to the image, has unlimited transfers and supports animated GIFs.
You are comparing a photo of a twisted turned torso with shoulders skewed to a photo of him standing upright. Here is a better comparison:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib.gif)
(https://i.gifer.com/76Ux.gif)
But nothing wrong with you using a medical illustration of a person not twisted and who's standing upright.??The point about using the medical illustration is to show the location on the body. When you compare it the the twisted and leaning torso of JBC you have to allow for changes such as a dropped right shoulder. I have shown how it is certainly not impossible for the bullet exiting the chest at the level of the 5th rib as JBC is positioned in z268 to have struck him in the wrist where it did.
:D :D :DYeah. I agree. But it is also like the SBT cheats about
That's so funny, the kid can't fit a square peg into a round hole so just cheats, an excellent analogy of CT thinking.
JohnM
??The point about using the medical illustration is to show the location on the body.
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Mason's "Confirmation Bias" Alignment | (https://images2.imgbox.com/a5/31/LjFrrbuK_o.jpg) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Non-Bias Alignment (Top of sternum at base of necktie knot) |
When you compare it the the twisted and leaning torso of JBC you have to allow for changes such as a dropped right shoulder. I have shown how it is certainly not impossible for the bullet exiting the chest at the level of the 5th rib as JBC is positioned in z268 to have struck him in the wrist where it did.
So Dan's response to the abundant evidence that tells us a shot around z271 striking JBC occurred, which was that it is impossible for the bullet exiting the chest to strike the wrist where it did, is not correct. So we are left with all that evidence that tells us the second shot occurred there.
Are you serious, Jerry? You have the right shoulder 4 inches below the shoulder in the zfilm! Do you really think that the red square is where his right nipple is?
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason's
"Confirmation Bias"
Alignment (https://images2.imgbox.com/a5/31/LjFrrbuK_o.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Non-Bias Alignment
(Top of sternum at base of necktie knot)
More or less. But his shoulders are turned almost 90 degrees to the car direction. His hips are still likely not turned more than 20 degrees. So the torso from hips to shoulders ranges from 20 to 90 degrees to the car direction.
Connally is basically presenting most of his front chest area to Zapruder.
His left torso and left shoulder are closer in space to Zapruder than the right side.. The difference is miniscule. It is made even less because of the telephoto zoom lens..
Are you serious, Jerry? You have the right shoulder 4 inches below the shoulder in the zfilm!
The sternum is less mobile than the shoulders. And it's the chest and ribs we're most concerned with.You can't be serious! And you accuse me of confirmation bias!
Leaving the sternum match in place, one could tilt the medical illustration a little to raise Connally's left shoulder, but it would not improve the elevation of the right nipple.
Maybe try it in 3D. The medical illustration is 2D and won't match up fully with a life image taken at an oblique angle.
You can't be serious! And you accuse me of confirmation bias!
How can you say you are matching the sternum location when the part where the neck connects to the shoulder is at least 4 inches higher in the zframe?
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif) | (https://news4sanantonio.com/resources/media/9be94ec1-bbb7-4b33-8cfa-7a8259ceffd5-medium16x9_download45.png) | (https://image.isu.pub/180409185401-eecfe3ba14fc0348c121a69fd1713ddf/jpg/page_1.jpg) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/alt5Groden.jpg) |
Since your medical illustration shows the shoulders at rest, a "shoulder-line" match to the photo should match with how Connally's shoulders are at rest.Come on, Jerry. Anyone can see that you are not even close. As far as the sternum not moving, what are you basing that on? As far as I can tell, the whole rib cage, including the sternum is pretty flexible. Put your hand on your sternum when you twist.(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif) (https://news4sanantonio.com/resources/media/9be94ec1-bbb7-4b33-8cfa-7a8259ceffd5-medium16x9_download45.png) (https://image.isu.pub/180409185401-eecfe3ba14fc0348c121a69fd1713ddf/jpg/page_1.jpg) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/alt5Groden.jpg)
Therightleft shoulder is artificially high and the camera angle is oblique. The best you can do is match the sternum level. The sternum is approximately on the frontal plane of the upper chest, which we can see in the Zapruder film
But nothing wrong with you using a medical illustration of a person not twisted and who's standing upright.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/df/17/8zVDSkDZ_o.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
— "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
How long is this going to go on?
"How long is this going to go on?"You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position. It is not. It is longer. The shoulders turn more than the ribs. You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib. Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder. Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple. Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.
The physical and video evidence demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt that Andrew's theory of a shot passing through JBC around z271 is nonsense. It has been clearly demonstrated but he simply refuses to accept it.
If that is indeed his suggestion for the exit of the bullet labeled in your graphic it simply defies belief. It makes a mockery of common sense. To make matters worse JBC's right shoulder is noticeably lower in the Zfilm than the image of him standing making the bullet hole in the jacket even lower!!
[/i]You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:
And even if the bullet did exit where Andrew suggests, it exits on a downward trajectory and would never be able to cause the tears in the cuff of JBC's shirt.
The fact of the matter is that the bullet exits JBC's chest a lot lower and is in accord with this quote you posted:You can see Connally's torn-open right chest?
"Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
— "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
This leaves the problem of the missing bullet as it has clearly been demonstrated there was no shot that hit any of the occupants of the limo around z271So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271? If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?
You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position. It is not. It is longer. The shoulders turn more than the ribs. You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib. Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder. Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple. Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.
You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_shirt_sleeve_05.jpg)
The bullet then struck the radius and fragmented. The fragments deflected up off the back of the radius and exited back through the french cuff here:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_above_shirt_sleeve_06.jpg)
So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271? If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?
Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot. The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc. So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.
We agree one the number of shots and the pattern.
As there is no strike at z271 then two possibilities exist (IMO)
1) The second shot missed and the third was the headshot.
2) The third shot missed and the second shot was the headshot.
The evidence of the Z-Film far outweighs the unreliable witness statements of those recounting a traumatic event (whether you like it or not).
Zero evidence of a strike around z271 is present in the Z-Film, so we are left with one of the two possibilities outlined.
Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot. The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc. So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.
As far as the evidence of it hitting JBC we have the Connallys and George Hickey and Greer. Hickey's evidence is pretty useful because we can actually see the hair lift as he described it. That allows us to pinpoint when it struck. How does a bullet lift JFK's hair and not hit in the car?
"...we can actually see the hair lift as he described it."Yes. I am free to explore other options. But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot. You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so. Clint Hill denied that. You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car. You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier. For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot. For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!
:D And here it is....the famous Hickey fringe ruffle.
You've been schooled elsewhere on this nonsense ("The First Shot" thread) so I won't be indulging you.
All I'm saying is that the evidence is conclusive - Connally was not shot through the torso around z271.
This leaves us with the options - a missed second shot or a missed third shot. I too can cherry-pick witness statements, anyone can, some that support a missed second shot and some that support a missed third shot.
The point to remember is this - the only reason you support the headshot as the third shot is to fit in with your Connally strike around z271.
The Connally strike around Z271 has been completely debunked so you don't have to be tied to the headshot = shot 3 scenario anymore.
You are free to explore other options
Yes. I am free to explore other options. But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot. You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so. Clint Hill denied that. You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car. You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier. For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot. For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!
The fact is that there was nothing to aim at at z360!!! There would be absolutely no reason for Oswald to fire at z360!! And you accuse me of not wanting to explore other options!!! Here is an option I would suggest: Just follow the evidence.....
To make my position clear Andrew:A very reasonable position, Dan. Your candour is most refreshing.
I don't think there is anything definitive to support a second shot miss or a third shot miss and that's that.
Anything said about Hill was presented as pure speculation whilst exploring the pros and cons of a third shot miss.
Nowhere have I stated a firm opinion on this matter as I don't believe there is evidence definitive enough to determine it one way or the other.
The only reason I favour a third shot miss is because the last two shots are so close together and it's my opinion that the more likely of these last two shots to miss would be shot 3.
Shot 1 was a hit.
It makes sense to me that, after a pause to take aim, shot 2 would be a hit.
I get the impression the shooter took his time over shot 2 but really hurried shot 3. We know it was hurried because of the many reports that shot 3 followed extremely closely after shot 2.
Other than that 'hunch' I don't have much else. As you know, it's a piece of cake to get witness statements to support almost any scenario going and there is indeed solid witness evidence that shot 3 missed but I don't put the same stock in witness statements that you do.
A shot 2 miss with a headshot at shot 3 is still a total possibility, it just seems weird to miss the shot you've taken your time on and hit with the shot you've rushed.
I have always stated the limitations of the "First Shot" model I've presented and have never shied away from solid evidence or arguments regarding the shots taken that day. The assassin must surely have seen JFK's head explode and knew there was no need for another shot. This is a strong argument against a shot 3 miss.
The only leads to follow are Tague and the potential bullet strike near the manhole cover. I believe these things are connected and are the result of the shot that missed.
A very reasonable position, Dan. Your candour is most refreshing.
But it seems to me that you are basing your preference for a third shot miss on something other than evidence. You seem to think that the last two shots being close together means that the last shot would not be accurate. But it could also be because he did not have to move the rifle between shots. If you look at the position of the rifle to make the head shot when he pulled the trigger at z309 or so and compare it to the position of the rifle to strike JBC in the right armpit around z268 or so, there is virtually no difference in the rifle position. JFK's head moves a bit to the right between those positions, that's all.
Oswald had the rifle resting on boxes of books and he had a strap holding the rifle steady. He had to reposition the rifle between the first shot and the second because the angle to the car changed significantly. But not between z269 and z310:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/View_through_scope_269_310.gif)
No-one is shot in the limo between z223 and z313.Ok. I understand your position. You believe that the Connally's were mistaken in believing that the second shot struck JBC.
Both men are shot through at z223 and the headshot occurs at z313.
It is my position (at the moment) that one shot missed the limo completely.
This shot struck near the manhole cover and a fragment went on to cause Tague's injury.
This is a wild miss.
This is why I prefer a third shot miss.
Ok. I understand your position. You believe that the Connally's were mistaken in believing that the second shot struck JBC.
Yes it is splitting hairs, but i definitely remember a youtube of Tina saying that she woznt sure whether she stopped filming just before the first shot or just after. I think it woz in the context of talking to max Holland, in which case Tina might have said that just to make Max happy, i can understand that.At 1:00 Tina says that the first shot was at about when she stopped filming.
But my forensic analysis says that she heard shot1 at T141 & Tina stopped filming at T142.
Oswald shot at T137.
The slug hit at T138.
The sound hit at T139.
The ear part of Tina's brain told the main part of Tina's brain at T141.
Tina stopped filming at T142.
Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Below is a copy of my posting in my other thread that Oswald's shot-2 happened at Z218 based on Zapruder's startle reaction when he shook his camera at Z224, based on his startle reaction time of 3.7 frames.
In the same way i can calculate that Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z129.8 based on Zapruder's mini-shake at Z134, based on the shake being due to the shock of the sound of the shot directly shaking the camera, based on the sound taking 4.2 frames to get from Oswald to Zapruder. Actually, if the distance to JFK is say 88ft horizontally & 60ft vertically then that is 107ft, & if the slug moves at say 2200 fps or 120 ft per frame then the slug takes 0.9 frames. Hence the slug was in the air at Z129.8 & hit the road at Z130.7.
Or if the mini-shake is due to Zapruder's startle reaction then i need to allow another 3.7 frames, which puts Oswald's shot-1 in the air at Z126.1 & it hits at Z127.0.
When i say hits i mean it misses JFK & hits the signal arm & then it fragments.
(1) The remnant slug puts a non-round hole in the floor of the limo tween the jump seats (we have a photo) & hits the road.
(2) The copper jacket breaks into 2 pieces as is usual (it is made of 2 pieces joined together), giving us CE567 CE569 found in the car.
(3) Small lead fragments hit JFK in the back of his head (as seen on xrays).
(4) Other larger lead fragments found in the limo might belong to Oswald's shot-1 or they might belong to Hickey's AR15.
However i reckon that Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z113, not the above Z127 or Z131.
This is based on the limo at Z133 being one car length past where it was when Oswald fired. Before today i reckoned that Oswald's shot-1 was at Z123, based on the limo at Z133 being a half car length past, but today i had a closer look at photos etc & i saw that 1 full limo length past was the true situation.
More exactly, the difference is equal to the length of a painted white line on the roadway. This is about 17ft. I saw that the limo takes 19 frames to move the length of the stripe, ie from Z133 to Z152, & then the limo takes another 19 frames to reach the next painted stripe. But if i assume that the limo was accelerating a little prior to Z133 i can round it off to say 20 frames. Hence Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z113, meaning that it hit at Z113, but Oswald fired at Z112 (the slug being in the air for 0.9 frames).
The slugs hit at Z113 & then Z218 & then Z313 (an auto burst of 4 or 5 shots).
[PREVIOUSLY I SAID]…..Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218.
Working backwards, Zapruder is startled at Z318 Z319 Z320, which is 5 frames after Hickey's 4 or 5 shots at Z313 Z314 Z315 Z316 Z317. Zapruder is 84ft from Hickey, & the speed of sound is 343 m/s or 62ft per frame, so that takes 1.3 frames. Deducting 1.3 from 5 gives a startle reaction time of 3.7 frames.
Zapruder is startled at frames Z224 to Z229. Deducting 3.7 from Z224 gives Z220.3. Zapruder is 264 ft from Oswald, for which the sound takes 4.2 frames. Hence Oswald shot at Z216.1. The slug moved at say 2200 fps which is 120 ft per frame, & Oswald is 197 ft from JFK, hence the slug takes 1.6 frames. Adding 1.6 to Z216.1 gives Z217.7 as the time that JFK is hit, ie say Z218.
Z218 has always been my estimate based on Connally's testimony re Connally's turning movements. He said he was turned/looking right, then turned to look over his left shoulder but only got halfway there when the slug hit him. That right to left turn can only have happened whilst Connally was hidden by the sign, & Z218 is dead center in that period.
Re Oswald's shot-1, this happened some time before Z133, Z133 being Zapruder's first frame of that sequence. We know where shot-1 happened, it happened at the signals, the shot ricocheting off the signal arm. But when is not known. If it was a half limo length before Z133 then at 1 ft per frame that makes shot-1 at Z123. A full limo makes it Z113. [END OF QUOTE].
"Oswald's shot"..... Ridiculous!! Since Lee Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom at the time of the shooting, the only "shooting" he might have done, was shooting the breeze with Jarman and Norman when they walked past the lunchroom. at 12:27.....Oswald didnt take any lunch to work that day.
Yes Jarman/Norman could have walked past outside that window, to or from the stairs on the footpath/sidewalk of Houston.
But why would they use Houston?
why would they use Houston?Yes, that works.
Because they couldn't get through the crowd at the front door, and they were at the south east corner of the TSBD ( Houston & Elm) So the quickest route to the 5th floor was by way of the sidewalk along the east side of the TSBD ( along Houston street)
How do you know for a fact that Oswald didn’t bring any lunch? Or buy some lunch, for that matter.Frazier noticed that Oswald had not brort his lunch, when Frazier picked him up that morning.
And Marina said he did bring a lunch, so who knows what is true?Did Marina give any details?
At 1:00 Tina says that the first shot was at about when she stopped filming.Tina Towner has always been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred seconds after she stopped filming.
But i still have not been able to find the footage where she says that she wasn’t sure whether the first shot was before or after she stopped filming.
Anyhow, i say that the first shot was at Z111, slug ricocheted at Z112, sound hit JFK at Z113.
Holland said that the first shot was at i think Z103.
Tina Towner has always been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred seconds after she stopped filming.Yes i think that her statement that shot-1 was just before or just after she stopped filming was to Holland & might have been a soft version to not overly offend his theory that shot-1 was at Z103 (my Z113), or at least when JFK was in line with the Oswald's view in line with the overhead signal arm.
- In the earliest interview for a teen magazine in 1968 she said that she started walking back to the corner to get ready to leave when the first shot sounded. (Towner, Tina. "View From the Corner." Teen June 1968: 46-49, 90).
- In her written statement filed with the Sixth Floor Museum she said that the first shot sounded 4-6 seconds after she stopped filming. In an email to me from Gary Mack of March 1, 2007, Gary stated:
"I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming. However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six seconds. So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her memory has changed.- In a 2013 report of a presentation Tina made in Greenville, TX (https://www.heraldbanner.com/news/local_news/capturing-few-seconds-of-history/article_8bf054fe-3e87-51e0-8e33-232a60e97394.html) it is stated:
“I heard the first gunshot right after I quit taking the film,” Towner said, as she appeared last week before the Greenville Kiwanis Club.
...
She said she heard the first shots “about two seconds” after she stopped filming."
So Max Holland is twisting her words to fit his nice theory that does not fit with any facts.
Yes i think that her statement that shot-1 was just before or just after she stopped filming was to Holland & might have been a soft version to not overly offend his theory that shot-1 was at Z103 (my Z113), or at least when JFK was in line with the Oswald's view in line with the overhead signal arm.But it is not just Tina Towner. Hugh Betzner said the first shot followed his z186 photo. Phillip Willis said the first shot was an instant before his z202 photo - that he clicked the shutter as a reflex to hearing the sound. Croft said he took his z161 photo and then hurried to wind his camera and pressed the shutter at the moment that he heard a shot - the Argus camera malfunctioned and the film was not exposed.*
However, Holland was not twisting her words, her words are her words, unless the footage was cleverly edited.
However, Holland might have pressured her in the usual ways.
However, Holland was correct (place wize)(if not time wize). The "solid-facts" tell us that. Witness statements are all quasi-facts, pseudo-facts & faux-facts.
So, either Tina miss-remembered, or, she miss-heard.
But it is not just Tina Towner. Hugh Betzner said the first shot followed his z186 photo. Phillip Willis said the first shot was an instant before his z202 photo - that he clicked the shutter as a reflex to hearing the sound. Croft said he took his z161 photo and then hurried to wind his camera and pressed the shutter at the moment that he heard a shot - the Argus camera malfunctioned and the film was not exposed.*There has been a lot written about witnesses for 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 shots & more (eg a flurry of shots).
And that is not all. There are at least 20 witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot. Not a single witness said he smiled or waved after the first shot. You have him smiling and waving for about 5 seconds after it.
And, again, that is not all: at least a dozen witnesses put the first shot when the President was just passing or almost passing or had just passed where they were standing. This puts the first shot between z190 and z220. Linda Willis said the first shot occurred when the President was between her and the Stemmons sign (between z195 and z205).
And that is not all. For Tina Towner to have been wrong, there had to have been at least 5 seconds between the last two shots. Yet over 45 witnesses provided statements and/or testimony that the last two shots were in rapid succession and noticeably closer together than the first two. Shots at z120, z225 and z313 do not fit that pattern.
All of these witnesses, not just Tina Towner, would have to not only be wrong in their observations, but to have recalled it incorrectly the same way. And it is just this one fact that witnesses would have been wrong on. The witness evidence is generally accurate with respect to the other observations they made.
Holland's theory is clever, but ugly facts make it untenable.
----------------------------------------------
* Here is what Gary Mack wrote to me in that email from 2007 about Croft's camera:
"As for Croft's blank photo, I can explain that, for my father had the exact same camera model, an Argus C-3. Dad used to get blank pictures all the time and he always got so made when it happened!
To advance the film in that camera, one had to depress a button on the top right and turn a knob on the top left. If you held the button down too long, which Dad often did, you'd roll past the next position on the roll of film. The skipped area would be blank - and that's what Croft received when his pictures were processed."
This is nutty. Just nutty. Even the WC admitted that any shot fired from the sixth-floor window before Z166 would have required a sharply downward angle. What's more, at that point, a sixth-floor gunman would have had only a partial view of the back of JFK's head, since part of his head would have been somewhat parallel to the window. Therefore, how would a bullet that hit the guy rod with JFK at this location on the street have been able to send fragments streaking toward him that could have landed near the upper midline of the back of his skull? How?If u have a look at my thread/link u will see that Holland reckoned that JFK was obstructed by the signal arm at (pseudo) Z103. I reckoned it woz at (psueudo) Z113. The diff being a half limo length (10 ft @ 1 Z frame per ft). I am happy to split the diff, in which case Oswald shot-1 woz at say (pseudo) Z108.
Incidentally, any shot from the sixth-floor window that could have hit the traffic signal's guy rod would have had to be fired well after Z113, closer to Z140. The traffic light was only about 10 feet from the tree. The sixth-floor window's view of the limo would have been obstructed by the oak tree from Z166 to Z207, so a sixth-floor shot that hit the traffic signal's guy rod would have occurred at around Z140, give or take 5-10 frames.
Finally, you seem to be forgetting about the Tague curb shot. It boggles the mind to try to fathom how a bullet that struck the traffic light's guy rod could have produced a large fragment that could have traveled over 400 feet and struck the Main Street curb near Tague and struck it with enough force to send metal or concrete streaking rapidly enough toward Tague to cut his face.
Two more pix of the signals.Landis, in his book, says that the 2 (brass) fragments were on the back seat in blood (between Jackie & JFK or ?). This might confirm that Oswald's shot-1 (at say pseudo Z103 or later) ricocheted offa the near (eastern) side of the western guy-rod, near the collar on the 2" pipe. We know that the lead splatter hit jfk on the back right of his head (xray shows bits stuck in galea). We know that the remnant lead slug made a hole in the floor between Mr & Mrs Connally. We know from ricochet tests that the splatter & the remnant slug & the 2 brass halves (there are always 2) take different angles after ricochet, but i karnt today find the test results. So, somehow, the 2 brass halves finished close together, on the seat.
The slug probly ricocheted off the westernmost side of the westernmost guy rod, the rod might be 3/4" or 1", probly steel pipe but might be solid steel. The slug must have hit very near the collar, hence it could not have hit the large pipe koz then it would have been stopped by the westernmost guy rod. And the slug could not have hit the easternmost guy rod koz then it would have been stopped by the big pipe. Drawings or photos of the view from Oswald's window must if they are correct show the collar on a line to the left of the centerline of jfk's neck/head/body, however most films photos drawings show the collar too far right, or they show the collar in the correct location but show jfk too far left. No, the collar was inches left of jfk. The slug hit a few inches down from the collar. The slug hit the westernmost guy rod at about where the guy has his hand.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e6Ch-CWNZyucDCd9etpWZxJqtwS6V0bWIjJJJw4KBXgNpXKIrjLF5Rrqh1eDMJizBkgOINU7BQEXWG-mdrYPoxp774A5V0kBn7Hko81V1jJGCpA1sIaUNNyzMx2zrvW1-lSzsnlbJtGEOTMRwcQBtL=w480-h270-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d8J5QECXRsNFITRNQ54s1h0JuQOkLHFG-gkaUHTGeDKUIN_b13BgHzD31HCRSvifpB_euV1E4dvGZqVstA0A4dJp-hlXPH4nNmWaqGg0vARk3GIShJtMaZxu_O02X96V-Gf41ijBBJppQM-So2qKru=s1007-no?authuser=0)
The Oswald Diet looks to me to be ok for a young guy using lots of energy & on his feet at work all day.I have changed my mind re what is a good diet.
However a good or bad diet depends mainly on the quantity of food rather than quality (within reason).
For guys who are not very active the Oswald Diet would be ok if quantity was kept minimal.
But if u tend to be overwt i would not follow the Oswald Diet, ie i would make changes to the quality, mainly reducing sugar (especially fructose) & flour (carbohydrate).
I see that the diet ideas of Dr Eric Berg (youtube) do not contradict my own general ideas (that i came up with in 1974)(mostly from one book).
Here are my comments re the Oswald Diet.
Breakfast -- For guys who are less active i would agree with Oswald that breakfast is not needed. A cup of coffee is ok (don’t use sugar).
Lunch – Peanut butter is ok if u are not overwt (9% sugar). Cheese is ok. Lettuce is ok. Avoid fruit (fructose is bad)(carb is bad if overwt). Avoid apple (fructose is bad)(carb). If overwt i would avoid bread (carb)(possible seed reaction). I would avoid Coke&Pepsi (fructose)(carb)(nowadays diet coke might be ok). Bananas are marginal (fructose).
I think that Oswald sometimes bort a hamburger for lunch (but i suspect that Marina was mistaken)(it was for dinner). Anyhow the occasional hamburger is ok (carb)(sugar).
But best to not have any lunch if not very active, just have one meal a day (Dinner).
Exercise -- Lunchtime is good -- eg shoot a president out of season without a permit -- & a brisk walk down several flights of stairs to a bus-stop.
Dinner – Meat & veggies are good. I would avoid fruit (fructose) & desert (if sugar)(& if pastry).
I would add fish (daily)(eg sardines).
Me myself i eat raw veggies (ie that dont need cooking)(daily), except that i have fries (potato)(daily)(my favorit food).
Dont overdo the salt (especially if u have hi blood pressure).
Alcohol – Oswald didn’t drink grog, & didn’t smoke.
If Oswald bort lunch near TSBD it would be a hamburger i think.
[edit 4june2022][A caterer sold lunches outside the TSBD at 10 am each workday, & probly sold hamburgers][why would Oswald buy the same old cheese sandwich & apple that he usually got from Marina?]
(https://i.postimg.cc/tg92wSDt/lunch-oswald-marina-cheese-peanut-butter-lettuce-fruit-apple-hamburger-coke.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjvJT3xs/lunch-oswald-frazier-pge-221-caterer.png)
Here are the timings for Oswald's shot-1 & shot-2 & for a faux shot-3.My calculation of Oswald's angles based on above is .....
87 ft is the horizontal dist scaled by me, 106 ft is the hypotenuse dist allowing for vertical dist estimated by me.
Oswald Shot ----------- hit at ------ fired at ------ sound hit JFK at – Carcano = 2170 ft per sec.
1 --- 87 ft = 106 ft ----- Z113 ------ Z112.1 ---------- Z113.9 ----- camera runs at 18.3 frames per sec.
2 --- 184 ft = 197 ft---- Z218 ------- Z216.3 --------- Z219.6
3 --- 255 ft = 266 ft ---- Z313 -------- Z310.8 --------- Z315.2 -------- Oswald did not have a shot-3.
The time tween shot-1 & shot-2 is 104.2 frames, which is 5.7 sec. Holland reckoned that shot-1 was at Z106, which is an extra 7 frames, or 0.4 sec, which makes it 6.1 sec.
The time tween shot-2 & faux shot-3 is 94.5 frames, which is 5.2 sec.
Adding to 10.9 sec.
Here are the timings for Hickey's auto burst, based on there being 6 shots.
Hickey Shot ------------- hit at ------ fired at ------ sound hit JFK at -------
6 ---- 26 ft---------------- Z313 -------- Z312.8 ---------- Z313.2 --- hit JFK in head & cracked windshield.
5 ---- AR15 = 3250 ft per sec------------ Z310.0 ---------- hit chrome trim on windshield.
4 ---- sound = 1100 ft per sec ----------- Z307.25 -------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
3 ---- probly 400 rpm= 6.67 rps --------- Z304.5 ---------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
2 ------------------------------------------- Z301.8 ----------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
1 ------------------------------------------- Z299.0 ---- probly hit Main St pavement & then kerb near Tague.
I have changed my mind re what is a good diet.Today it is known that a carnivore diet cures epilepsy.
Today 22Nov2023 i am going to start on the carnivore diet.
No fruit (i already did that), & no bread or biscuits etc (i already did that), & no sugar (already did that).
And today i start with no veggies.
So, no more potato fries (my favorite)(i have fries almost every day).
No more carrot peas cabbage onion silverbeet.
Lots of bacon smoked ham chicken (free range) fish (wild caught) smoked cod mussel (farm) corned beef steak sausages (all grass fed)(no grain fed), kangaroo, wallaby, eggs (free range), cheese, olive oil (no seed oils)(lard is ok).
I will have salami & cheese every day (evening really, ie dinner)(i never have breakfast)(& i almost never hav lunch).
Cant wait. Starts today, koz my fridge is finally empty. So i am going in to town to do my carnivore shopping.
There is sometimes some roadkill.
Patrolman Hargis was left of JFK & Co, Hargis says ……………turning left on Elm St & about 2 or 3 m down Elm St the first shot rang out……bump
59:57Ok lemmeseeenow.
VINCE i have something go you fill it in okay um are you aware the allegations of uh 1:00:03 was it i don't know it was an admiral or captain david osborne about the bullet falling out of the body 1:00:08 during the autopsy i guess when they lifted them up did you see a whole bullet or a fragment 1:00:13 that would fall out of the president
CUSTER well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
BILL now now this is 1:00:39 this the the bullet now you when you were doing the x-rays and and you had him on the table and 1:00:45 moving him around didn't you tell me at some point in some of our earlier conversations 1:00:51 that a bullet fragment fell out of the president
CUSTER this was 1:00:57 this was the time that they found that
BILL okay and what happened what was their demeanour 1:01:02 what was what happened when that bullet fragment fell out
CUSTER the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologistsnonaudiblesaid hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE 1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE okay
CUSTER what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
BILL just for clarification what area of the body did 1:01:58 it fall out
CUSTER that was the upper thoracic the upper back
BILL okay so so it fell out it 1:02:04 literally fell out of the back wound
CUSTER right
BILL all right well now the single bullet theory 1:02:11 would have us believe that the bullet went in came out his throat 1:02:17 hit conley in the in the right armpit came out broke his left wrist and they 1:02:23 cut the radial nerve and went into his leg so if you're telling us 1:02:28 that that the bullet fragment fell out of the back that blows the single bullet theory to 1:02:33 hell right there
CUSTER right
VINCE and also the fact it was too low on the back to exit the neck you know as far as the right to 1:02:40 left trajectory vertical on horizontal too
BILL and you're absolutely certain 1:02:45 this bullet fragment fell out of the back
CUSTER absolutely
BILL the back wound itself out of the back wound
CUSTER we lifted him up 1:02:51 man boom and that's where it come out
VINCE that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal
CUSTER right
VINCE right
BILL that's something that that i've wanted to clear up
CUSTER they 1:03:02 documented everything that happened that evening
CUSTER well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
CUSTER the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists sermons said hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE 1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE okay
CUSTER what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
VINCE that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal [/u]
We need 2 new Xs to mark jfk's pozzie at shot-1 & shot-2.
Pozzie of X1 (shot-1).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, just west of the overhead signals, such that a line from
Point-1A (Oswald's Carcano in the window) passes throo
Point-1B (the west edge of the west guyrod 6" north of the collar on the main pipe of the overhead signals)(old signals now gone)(new signals different i guess) & that line passes throo
Point-1C (your chest). Point-1C would have been jfk's heart back in 22nov1963). I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is a mile too far west.
Pozzie of X2 (shot-2).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, such that a line from
Point-2A (Zapruder's camera up on pedestal) passes throo
Point-2B (the midpoint of the old Stemmons sign)(now gone) & that line passes throo
Point-2C (your nose). Point-2C would have been jfk at Z218. Shot-2 of course came from the Carcano. I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is too far west.
Pozzie of X3 X4 X5 X6 (shots-3 4 5 & 6)(Hickey's AR15).
Point-3 is when jfk is at say Z300.
Point-6 is when jfk is at Z313. The existing X on Elm St is probly ok.
Here are the timings for Oswald's shot-1 & shot-2 & for a faux shot-3.My calculation of Oswald's angles based on above is .....
87 ft is the horizontal dist scaled by me, 106 ft is the hypotenuse dist allowing for vertical dist estimated by me.
Oswald Shot ----------- hit at ------ fired at ------ sound hit JFK at – Carcano = 2170 ft per sec.
1 --- 87 ft = 106 ft ----- Z113 ------ Z112.1 ---------- Z113.9 ----- camera runs at 18.3 frames per sec.
2 --- 184 ft = 197 ft---- Z218 ------- Z216.3 --------- Z219.6
3 --- 255 ft = 266 ft ---- Z313 -------- Z310.8 --------- Z315.2 -------- Oswald did not have a shot-3.
The time tween shot-1 & shot-2 is 104.2 frames, which is 5.7 sec. Holland reckoned that shot-1 was at Z106, which is an extra 7 frames, or 0.4 sec, which makes it 6.1 sec.
The time tween shot-2 & faux shot-3 is 94.5 frames, which is 5.2 sec.
Adding to 10.9 sec.
Here are the timings for Hickey's auto burst, based on there being 6 shots.
Hickey Shot ------------- hit at ------ fired at ------ sound hit JFK at -------
6 ---- 26 ft---------------- Z313 -------- Z312.8 ---------- Z313.2 --- hit JFK in head & cracked windshield.
5 ---- AR15 = 3250 ft per sec------------ Z310.0 ---------- hit chrome trim on windshield.
4 ---- sound = 1100 ft per sec ----------- Z307.25 -------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
3 ---- probly 400 rpm= 6.67 rps --------- Z304.5 ---------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
2 ------------------------------------------- Z301.8 ----------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
1 ------------------------------------------- Z299.0 ---- probly hit Main St pavement & then kerb near Tague.