JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on February 21, 2019, 05:44:05 AM
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Ptm Baker had already given his testimony to the Warren Commission but for some unknown reason the FBI had him come in, sit down and hand write another affidavit just before the Commission's works went into print. This document was entered as CE-3076.
In his testimony, the Coke machine was mentioned but there was no mention of Oswald drinking a beverage.
However in his first mention of the lunchroom encounter Baker stated that they [He and Truly] had made their way up to the third or forth floor before Oswald was encountered. That seems rather puzzling. By the time he testified though, he had learned to count to two.
"Mr. Belin - What happened?"
Mr. BAKER -" As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Mr Baker had mentioned that Oswald was drinking a coke in earlier interviews. Apparently this could have been the reasoning for the last minute affidavit.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
The words drinking a Coke are crossed out. I suppose it seemed a bit much to have to fit all that in after an alleged super dive from the sixth floor.
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The Baker (and Truly) 9/23/64 statements are explained here:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html
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The Baker (and Truly) 9/23/64 statements are explained here:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html
Ah yes..... The statements need to be "explained".
The truth is....They liars of LBJ's cover up committee needed to expunge the fact that Lee Oswald was drinking a coke when Baker burst into the second floor lunchroom.... Because that fact made the theory that Lee had charged from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom after the murder of JFK , a humanly impossible act. Thus the liars were desperate to expunge Bakers statement about seeing Lee drinking a coke.....
In the immediate aftermath of the murder, the DPD were desperate to paint an ugly portrait of the arch villain Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald Boooooo! Hisssss ! And the idea that an officer had seen that cold blooded fiend calmly drinking a coke just seconds after he'd blew the President's brains out seemed like a grand way to show the public what a inhuman fiend he was. Later when the cover up committee attempted to "re-construct" the imaginary scenario they found that Lee Oswald could not have shot JFK as the DPD had pretended. Because that damned coke that their own officer had said he saw Lee drinking would have required about 30 seconds to purchase..... and there wasn't a single second to spare in "re-enacting" the crime as they theorized it had happened.
Thus they were compelled to expunge Baker's sworn affidavit..... And you Mr DVP are a damned fool if you think that anybody will believe the garbage you have linked to....
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And you also think Baker uttered the words "drinking a Coke"....even though we know from his WC testimony months earlier that Baker said he didn't see Oswald with any Coke on November 22nd.
Baker wasn't asked about the soda!---and Belin wasn't about to ask.
Cops are trained in testimony to not volunteer information that isn't asked.
A re-inspection of the signature on the affidavit looks like looks like M L Baker is written differently from the "I, Marion L Baker" and the signed M L Baker. Look at the M -- Look at the L---[almost looks like the L that Lee Harvey made] the B is different--- Did Baker really sign it? Who knows? But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.
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Baker wasn't asked about the soda!---and Belin wasn't about to ask.
Cops are trained in testimony to not volunteer information that isn't asked.
A re-inspection of the signature on the affidavit looks like looks like M L Baker is written differently from the "I, Marion L Baker" and the signed M L Baker. Look at the M -- Look at the L---[almost looks like the L that Lee Harvey made] the B is different--- Did Baker really sign it? Who knows? But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.
But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.
It wasn't simply a matter of, "not looking good"... That coke was crucial to Lee's alibi.... ( an alibi is simply a a defense in which the accused presents evidence of his innocence ) Lee had told his interrogators that he was in the second floor lunchroom DRINKING A COKE when the motorcycle cop with a gun in his hand burst into the lunchroom and demanded to know what he was doing there. Naturally, Capt Fritz asked Baker if he'd seen Lee Oswald in the Lunchroom. And Baker had confirmed that he had seen the Lee Oswald in the lunchroom drinking a coke after the shooting.
Lee had a solid alibi that was supported by an officer of the DPD..... The murderers knew that they could not allow him to live to defend himself......
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That coke was crucial to Lee's alibi....
Thumb1: Of course that is what I meant by 'it didn't look good'. The precious seconds it took to wiggle around the book stacks on the sixth floor...conceal a weapon... fly down the stairs ...dig change out of a pocket...select the right coins...deposit money...select drink...wait for drink to ka-chink out of the machine...open...then start consuming, didn't sit well with the concept of an agitated killer going on the run.
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Two things.
Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself? Or did someone else write it for him to sign?
Second, I find the phrase "bullet shot" to be very unusual. I've never heard that phrase before and I doubt a police officer would use it.
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Two things.
Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself? Or did someone else write it for him to sign?
Second, I find the phrase "bullet shot" to be very unusual. I've never heard that phrase before and I doubt a police officer would use it.
Nice Catch....But it's simply a matter of starting to write one thought and then change of thought before the writer has finished the sentence... I do it quite frequently..
Obviously Baker meant either "GUN" shots, or "RIFLE" shots.......
As I recall Baker never actually wrote this affidavit..... It was written by one of Hoover's agents ( SURPRISE !)
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Two things.
Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself? Or did someone else write it for him to sign?
Second, I find the phrase "bullet shot" to be very unusual. I've never heard that phrase before and I doubt a police officer would use it.
I thought the strangest language used was when Baker wrote/said, "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come FROM this building". This phrasing gives the impression that Baker felt the shots might have been fired from INSIDE the TSBD. Officer Baker's story has always been that he saw pigeons flying from the TOP of the TSBD after he heard the shots and he then assumed that the shots had been fired from the Roof of the TSBD. The phrasing being used in this statement is an attempt to make the reader believe that Office Baker entered the TSBD believing that shots had been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.
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I thought the strangest language used was when Baker wrote/said, "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come FROM this building". This phrasing gives the impression that Baker felt the shots might have been fired from INSIDE the TSBD. Officer Baker's story has always been that he saw pigeons flying from the TOP of the TSBD after he heard the shots and he then assumed that the shots had been fired from the Roof of the TSBD. The phrasing being used in this statement is an attempt to make the reader believe that Office Baker entered the TSBD believing that shots had been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.
Excellent point, Royell.... "I entered this building in an effort to determine if the shots may have come from this building"
On November 22, Baker said that he thought the sound may have came from the roof of the TSBD because he saw pigeons fly up from behind the Hertz sign that was on the roof.
But By September of 64....He was the perfect monday morning quarterback.
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But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.
But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they? No, they wanted to KEEP that document (and not even cross out the word "Coke" entirely, which was another possibility if they wanted to HIDE the Coke).
You CTers need a new hobby. This one is just too embarrassing for you guys now.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr-pepper-talk.html
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Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself? Or did someone else write it for him to sign?
It was very likely written by an FBI agent.
More....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html
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FRITZ: Okay, son, so you admit one of our men saw you in the lunchroom on the second floor?
OSWALD: Naturally if I was in the lunchroom at that time, yes, sir.
FRITZ: What were you doing there?
OSWALD: I had just bought a Coca Cola from the machine they have in there.
FRITZ: What did the officer say to you?
OSWALD: Well, he put a pistol up to my stomach and said 'Do you work here?' I told him I did, and my boss Mr Truly told him I was telling the truth.
FRITZ: What happened next?
OSWALD: Well, they went racing up the stairs.
FRITZ: What did you do then?
OSWALD: Well, I figured the policeman had given me a warning not to miss the President's visit. He and Mr Truly sure looked real keen to get upstairs for a good view of the parade themselves. So I brought my Coca Cola downstairs and went outside to watch the parade.
FRITZ: Did you speak to anyone on the way down?
OSWALD: Yes, sir. As I was going through the office towards the front stairway, a woman who works up there said to me, 'The President should be shot! But I hope they don't kill him.'
FRITZ: What did you say to her?
OSWALD: Oh nothing. I just muttered 'Crazy damn fascist' under my breath. Then I went downstairs and out front.
FRITZ: Let me get this clear, son. You're saying you went outside to watch the Presidential Parade?
OSWALD: Yes, sir. I went out on to the front steps.
FRITZ: What did you see when you got out onto the steps?
OSWALD: Well, it looked like people were real unhappy about the President coming to town. There was screaming and hollering and crying.
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I thought the strangest language used was when Baker wrote/said, "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come FROM this building". This phrasing gives the impression that Baker felt the shots might have been fired from INSIDE the TSBD. Officer Baker's story has always been that he saw pigeons flying from the TOP of the TSBD after he heard the shots and he then assumed that the shots had been fired from the Roof of the TSBD. The phrasing being used in this statement is an attempt to make the reader believe that Office Baker entered the TSBD believing that shots had been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.
Dear Royell,
Do you think the flock of pigeons might have been motivated to suddenly leave the roof due to a gun's being fired from the sixth floor (think shockwave and loud sound), or only by its being fired from the roof, itself, or perhaps from somewhere else in Dealey Plaza?
If you had been Baker, would you have thought the shots must have come from the roof?
Taking the above questions into consideration, how would you have written that statement if you had been Baker?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Question to those who believe the 2nd floor lunchroom incident involving Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly really happened!
Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?
Thumb1:
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But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they? No, they wanted to KEEP that document (and not even cross out the word "Coke" entirely, which was another possibility if they wanted to HIDE the Coke).
You CTers need a new hobby. This one is just too embarrassing for you guys now.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr-pepper-talk.html
But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they?
Bravo!!... Great acting Von Pea brain.... Or are you acting?.... Perhaps you really are this dumb... Any person of average intelligence can see that the whole idea behind the affidavit was to expunge the statements that Baker had spoken on 11/22/63....
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But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they?
Bravo!!... Great acting Von Pea brain.... Or are you acting?.... Perhaps you really are this dumb... Any person of average intelligence can see that the whole idea behind the affidavit was to expunge the statements that Baker had spoken on 11/22/63....
Provide me with a link that says Officer Baker (on 11/22/63) uttered the words "I saw Oswald drinking a Coke".
You won't be able to do that. But good luck trying.
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Question to those who believe the 2nd floor lunchroom incident involving Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly really happened!
Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?
Yes, of course he did.
Oswald knew he couldn't lie his way out of that question like he did with so many others that Fritz asked him. Oswald knew there were TWO other people who would confirm where the "encounter" took place, so he admitted it to Fritz.
Plus, he admitted it because he knew that just because he was in the lunchroom a minute or two after the shooting, that didn't have to mean he was the assassin. So he felt comfortable telling the truth (for once).
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But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they?
Bravo!!... Great acting Von Pea brain.... Or are you acting?.... Perhaps you really are this dumb... Any person of average intelligence can see that the whole idea behind the affidavit was to expunge the statements that Baker had spoken on 11/22/63....
Dear Walter,
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Royell,
Do you think the flock of pigeons might have been motivated to suddenly leave the roof due to a gun's being fired from the sixth floor (think shockwave and loud sound), or only by its being fired from the roof, itself, or perhaps from somewhere else in Dealey Plaza?
If you had been Baker, would you have thought the shots must have come from the roof?
Taking the above questions into consideration, how would you have written that statement if you had been Baker?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
I am Not questioning Baker's thinking shots might have come from the roof. I am questioning why the statement is worded in a way to avoid publicizing that a law enforcement officer thought the shot(s) originated from an even Higher source than the 6th floor. There has always been speculation of shot(s) being fired from the ROOF of the Records Bld and/or the Dal Tex Bld.
One thing I do find strange is Officer Baker choosing to turn the corner onto Elm and then run across the Elm St Extension. If he had thought that shots were being fired from the roof of the TSBD, why not drive the motorcycle Straight Ahead to the curb in front of the TSBD and then run Straight into the TSBD?
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Question to those who believe the 2nd floor lunchroom incident involving Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly really happened!
Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?
Thumb1:
Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?
Yes... Hosty and Bookhout confirm that Oswald told them that he'd gone from the first floor to the second floor to buy a bottle of Coke from the vending machine. There would have been no reason for Lee to relate that trivial bit of info if He hadn't been encountered there by Baker.... On page 619 WR Bookhout's report says....
"he was on the second floor of said building having just purchased a Coca Cola from the soft drink machine at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked if he worked there, Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee.".....
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Provide me with a link that says Officer Baker (on 11/22/63) uttered the words "I saw Oswald drinking a Coke".
You won't be able to do that. But good luck trying.
Go to hell.... I have no time for your BS.....
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As a side note ...there are various designations lets say on what people called carbonated beverages.
A northern term for example ..'pop'.
Saying someone was 'drinking a coke' could have applied to any variety of sodas and not necessarily Coca-Cola.
Someone has a soda in their hand --who analyzes, scrutinizes, or inspects exactly what brand?
In testimony [sidetracking] David Belin was a total jerk with his 25 question interrogation of Baker on what shirt Oswald was wearing. Baker was asked and he answered after the first question. The mentality was outrageous!
Warren Report = (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)
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Go to hell.... I have no time for your BS.....
Yeah, that's what I thought. Cakebread's full of crap (and empty claims), as usual. Just like in all these examples below, wherein I made Cakebread look like the conspiracy-happy fantasist that he is....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread
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I don't advocate damnation over all this. Back to the topic-- There still seems to be a strong corroboration about the lunchroom encounter with the soda. Fritz notes ...Oswald said he went to get the soda after eating. Mrs Reid sees Oswald with the soda. Officer Baker did reference seeing Oswald with a soda. You want silliness? I saw this----
In the book, Conspiracy Of One (1990, The Summit Group), author Jim Moore presents a variety of reasons why he believes Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assassin of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. One of those reasons is on page 53, detailing the period immediately after the assassination when Oswald was spotted in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository: Oswald...put a nickel in the soda machine and selected a Coca-Cola. It may be that this single action on Oswald's part holds the key to his guilt. Oswald habitually drank Dr Pepper. There can be only one realistic explanation for a miser like Oswald to fail to select his soft drink of choice-he was nervous. Three other possibilities exist, all unlikely: 1. Oswald really bought a Dr Pepper and every witness questioned recalled it as a Coca-Cola 2. The soda machine was out of Dr Pepper.
3. The soda machine-a Coca-Cola product, malfunctioned in favor of its manufacturer.
"......every witness questioned recalled it as a Coca-Cola."----actually no one said it was a Coca Cola.
See? Oswald was guilty because he indeed did have a coke [It's the Real Thing] :-\
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In the book, Conspiracy Of One (1990, The Summit Group), author Jim Moore presents a variety of reasons why he believes Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assassin of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. One of those reasons is on page 53, detailing the period immediately after the assassination when Oswald was spotted in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository:
Oswald...put a nickel in the soda machine and selected a Coca-Cola. It may be that this single action on Oswald's part holds the key to his guilt. Oswald habitually drank Dr Pepper. There can be only one realistic explanation for a miser like Oswald to fail to select his soft drink of choice---he was nervous. Three other possibilities exist, all unlikely:
1. Oswald really bought a Dr Pepper and every witness questioned recalled it as a Coca-Cola.
2. The soda machine was out of Dr Pepper.
3. The soda machine---a Coca-Cola product---malfunctioned in favor of its manufacturer.
Of course, author Jim Moore, at the time he wrote the above statements in his book (1990 or earlier), had no idea that the Coke machine on the second floor very likely did not dispense "Dr. Pepper" at all....because it was later learned that the "Dr. Pepper" machine was located on the first floor and not the second. (See CD496; Photo 7 below.)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr-pepper-talk.html
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In support of David's factually correct reply to Jerry's question in the OP:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59643&relPageId=2&search=marion_baker%20and%20rankin
Thanks for linking to that document, Tom. It gives me one more link to add to my "Baker/Coke" page at my site.
The version of that page that appears in CD1526 (below) doesn't include the last paragraph which verifies the reason for the WC wanting the Sept. '64 Baker/Truly statements....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11921&relPageId=2
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Yes, of course he did.
Oswald knew he couldn't lie his way out of that question like he did with so many others that Fritz asked him. Oswald knew there were TWO other people who would confirm where the "encounter" took place, so he admitted it to Fritz.
Plus, he admitted it because he knew that just because he was in the lunchroom a minute or two after the shooting, that didn't have to mean he was the assassin. So he felt comfortable telling the truth (for once).
Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein! Thumb1:
If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?
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Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?
Yes... Hosty and Bookhout confirm that Oswald told them that he'd gone from the first floor to the second floor to buy a bottle of Coke from the vending machine. There would have been no reason for Lee to relate that trivial bit of info if He hadn't been encountered there by Baker.... On page 619 WR Bookhout's report says....
"he was on the second floor of said building having just purchased a Coca Cola from the soft drink machine at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked if he worked there, Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee.".....
Thank you for your clear answer, Mr Cakebread! Thumb1:
If Mr Oswald did confirm a post-shooting 2nd fl lunchroom incident, why then does Agent Hosty, in his unpublished notes below, tell us that Mr Oswald told them that, after buying a bottle of Coke from the vending machine, he "went outside to watch P. Parade"?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
A post-assassination Presidential Parade? Really?
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What is this thread about, again? What is the expected outcome, in the best of all possible worlds, of the Oswald out in front obsession?
Hello Mr Scully! Thumb1:
I guess some of us less sophisticated researchers hold the accused assassin's location at the time of the assassination to be a rather important issue.
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein [sic]! Thumb1:
If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?
Well, I'm not a mind-reader, so all I can do is provide my best guess on this. And I'm basing this "best guess" on the fact that in none of the final typed-up reports of any of the people who heard Oswald being interrogated by Captain Fritz (Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, Kelley, and Fritz himself) do we find anything about Oswald saying he went "outside to watch the Presidential parade".
So my best guess is:
I think James Hosty's "went outside to watch P. Parade" note was very likely referring to a point in time that was AFTER the assassination, not before (even though Hosty used the words "P[residential] Parade"). That note is likely referring to the "out with Bill Shelley in front" situation (which appears in Captain Fritz' notes).
And that "out with Shelley" chronology, according to James Bookhout's solo FBI report that appears on Page 619 of the Warren Report, is clearly something that occurred after the assassination and after Oswald's encounter with the policeman on the second floor.
With respect to why there are two separate FBI reports regarding some of this same information, well, I think it's quite possible that the two FBI agents involved in the first report (Hosty and Bookhout), after filing that first report (dictated on Nov. 23), realized that a relevant and important piece of information (the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter) had not been included in that first joint Hosty/Bookhout report. Therefore, the necessity arose for a second report to be written which would include the information about Oswald being stopped by the police on the second floor (which became the "solo Bookhout" report that was dictated a day later, on Nov. 24).
But please keep this in mind....
The Warren Commission didn't HIDE or DESTROY either of those two FBI reports. The Commission didn't conceal their existence from the public. Both of those reports---warts, omissions, and all---are readily available for anyone to view and can easily be found right there in the Warren Commission's final report, just a few pages apart in Appendix XI.
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Well, I'm not a mind-reader, so all I can do is provide my best guess on this. And I'm basing this "best guess" on the fact that in none of the final typed-up reports of any of the people who heard Oswald being interrogated by Captain Fritz (Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, Kelley, and Fritz himself) do we find anything about Oswald saying he went "outside to watch the Presidential parade".
So my best guess is:
I think James Hosty's "went outside to watch P. Parade" note was very likely referring to a point in time that was AFTER the assassination, not before (even though Hosty used the words "P[residential] Parade"). That note is likely referring to the "out with Bill Shelley in front" situation (which appears in Captain Fritz' notes).
And that "out with Shelley" chronology, according to James Bookhout's solo FBI report that appears on Page 619 of the Warren Report, is clearly something that occurred after the assassination and after Oswald's encounter with the policeman on the second floor.
With respect to why there are two separate FBI reports regarding some of this same information, well, I think it's quite possible that the two FBI agents involved in the first report (Hosty and Bookhout), after filing that first report (dictated on Nov. 23), realized that a relevant and important piece of information (the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter) had not been included in that first joint Hosty/Bookhout report. Therefore, the necessity arose for a second report to be written which would include the information about Oswald being stopped by the police on the second floor (which became the "solo Bookhout" report that was dictated a day later, on Nov. 24).
But please keep this in mind....
The Warren Commission didn't HIDE or DESTROY either of those two FBI reports. The Commission didn't conceal their existence from the public. Both of those reports---warts, omissions, and all---are readily available for anyone to view and can easily be found right there in the Warren Commission's final report, just a few pages apart in Appendix XI.
Oh dear, Mr von Pein, this is most unconvincing!
The devastating words in Agent Hosty's notes about Mr Oswald's claim about a pre-motorcade visit to the 2nd fl lunchroom and about going "outside to watch P. Parade" were concealed from the public. They are nowhere to be found in the Warren Commission's final report. And Agent Hosty, in his Warren Commission testimony, lied about what Mr Oswald had said: he told the commission that Mr Oswald had claimed to have been in the domino room at the time of the motorcade!
Your response to this revelation? As usual when it comes to anything that might threaten the official story of the assassination, you show yourself constitutionally incapable of either seeing evil or hearing evil!
What do you do when presented with new evidence where it is stated in the clearest terms possible by Agent Hosty that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone out to "watch the P. Parade"? You reassure yourself that Agent Hosty must have been so utterly stupid that he would misunderstand or misremember what the accused assassin of President Kennedy had said when asked where he had been at the time of the assassination.
This is not your 'best guess', Mr von Pein, it's merely your best wilful misreading of Agent Hosty's words: "Then went outside to watch P. Parade". You do know what the verb "watch" means, right? And the adjective "Presidential"? And the noun "Parade"?
You did, in fairness, get one thing right: "in none of the final typed-up reports of any of the people who heard Oswald being interrogated by Captain Fritz ... do we find anything about Oswald saying he went 'outside to watch the Presidential parade'". Your failure to draw the obvious conclusion from this silence tells us only how extraordinarily gullible you are.
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The devastating words in Agent Hosty's notes about Mr Oswald's claim about a pre-motorcade visit to the 2nd fl lunchroom and about going "outside to watch P. Parade" were concealed from the public.
But there was no real need for the authorities to want to hide the fact that Oswald said he went outside to watch the parade (if, in fact, he really DID say those words, which I doubt very much, since nobody wrote those words in ANY official report at all).
Since the law enforcement people involved in this case knew that Oswald lied about so many other things during his interrogation (with those lies being made public), why would the WC or FBI feel the need to hide ONE MORE LIE coming from the lips of the accused Presidential assassin? The authorities had lots of evidence to charge LHO with JFK's murder within 12 hours of the crime. And they knew he was going to lie his ass off. That was obvious right from the start. So what's one more lie?
Do you REALLY think the DPD and FBI knew for a fact that Oswald really was standing outside on the steps when JFK was shot, and that the "Prayer Man" theorists were going to surface in the future with their "bombshell" evidence in the form of the blurry Darnell Film that they say proves Oswald was in the doorway? And is that why the authorities concealed Hosty's note from the world until 2018 when Mr. Blunt dug it out?
And, BTW, why didn't the cover-uppers just destroy that Hosty note? If it's the "key" to the WC story crumbling into dust, why did "they" leave that bread crumb for Blunt to find?
CTers never answer logical questions like that, do they?
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But there was no real need for the authorities to want to hide the fact that Oswald said he went outside to watch the parade (if, in fact, he really DID say those words, which I'm doubting he did, since nobody wrote those words in ANY official report at all).
But since Oswald lied about so many other things during his interrogation, why would the WC or FBI feel the need to hide just ONE MORE LIE from the lips of the accused Presidential assassin.
Because it wasn't a lie, and they knew it.
Those less gullible than you, Mr von Pein, understand the significance of the Hosty note. And they see the pathetic circularity of your reasoning: We know that Oswald shot JFK, therefore nothing that points to his not having shot JFK can be taken seriously.
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The problem that you (and all CTers) have is: There's just too much stuff on the "Oswald Did It" table for you to skirt around (including the Tippit murder evidence too, which only a hopelessly fanatical CTer can possibly deny was committed by Oswald).
You can try and pretend that it's all fake and phony evidence, but reasonable people can see that's just a convenient cop-out. And that evidence isn't going anywhere---regardless of Prayer Man and the Hosty note.
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The problem that you (and all CTers) have is: There's just too much stuff on the "Oswald Did It" table for you to skirt around (including the Tippit murder evidence too, which only a hopelessly fanatical CTer can possibly deny was committed by Oswald).
You can try and pretend that it's all fake and phony evidence, but reasonable people can see that's just a convenient cop-out. And that evidence isn't going anywhere---regardless of Prayer Man and the Hosty note.
Let's get right to the point Mr Von Pea Brain....You're FOS! Very few are going to accept the BS you spew. We've heard it for nearly six decades and after all of those years the vast majority still refuse to buy the lie..... So rave on Pea Brain.....you're voice is getting weaker everyday...
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein! Thumb1:
If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?
I believe that Hosty was a bit confused ( due to his panic caused by Oswald being caught) He had been chewed out and ordered over to the DPD by Hoover less than an hour earlier, and he was trying to clear the FBI of any failure that could have led to the murder of the President. ( He wasn't smart enough and wasn't the agent for the job)
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Years later he was still trying to clean up some of the mess he made when he wrote the book "Assignment : Oswald" in 2011....On page 23 of his book Hosty wrote about the interrogation of Lee Oswald that was conducted ( pun) at 3:15 11/22 /63 ...
Quote on...
Where were you when the president went by the depository?
"I was eating my lunch in the first floor lunchroom."
Were you ever on the second floor around the time the president was shot?
"Well Yeah, I went up there to get a bottle of Coca- Cola from the machine for my lunch."
But where were you when the president actually passed your building?
"On the first floor in the lunchroom"
Quote off...
There can be no doubt that Lee Oswald went to the second floor and had a coke in his hand when Baker and Truly encountered him in the second floor lunchroom.
About a week after the coup d e'tat a reporter from the magazine US News and World Report was at the TSBD talking to Roy Truly ....
Truly told the reporter that Lee was in he second floor lunch room calmly DRINKING A COCA - COLA when Baker opened the door to the lunchroom and demanded to know what Oswald was doing there.....
This interview took place before anybody knew that there was a huge problem with the theory that Lee had ran from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom after the shooting.
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Because it wasn't a lie, and they knew it.
Those less gullible than you, Mr von Pein, understand the significance of the Hosty note. And they see the pathetic circularity of your reasoning: We know that Oswald shot JFK, therefore nothing that points to his not having shot JFK can be taken seriously.
Those less gullible than you, Mr von Pein, understand the significance of the Hosty note.
Alan.... Von PB isn't gullible...... ( Hells Bells, a little 8 year old kid isn't THAT gullible....) He's an arrogant, egotistical, liar.....
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Yeah, that's what I thought. Cakebread's full of crap (and empty claims), as usual. Just like in all these examples below, wherein I made Cakebread look like the conspiracy-happy fantasist that he is....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread
Attention Please.... All readers of this thread .... Please click on the link that Von Pea Brain provided.... It's a golden example of Von P's ignorance.
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Attention Please.... All readers of this thread .... Please click on the link that Von Pea Brain provided.... It's a golden example of Von P's ignorance.
Says Foghorn Leghorn. The one member of this forum with a thread dedicated to his fabrications.
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Says Foghorn Leghorn. The one member of this forum with a thread dedicated to his fabrications.
You're jealous....
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I believe that Hosty was a bit confused [...]
No offence, Mr Cakebread, but it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting. And he most certainly wouldn't have fabricated such a claim.
"Then went outside to watch the P. Parade": this is what Mr Oswald claimed. No question about it.
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No offence, Mr Cakebread, but it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting. And he most certainly wouldn't have fabricated such a claim.
"Then went outside to watch the P. Parade": this is what Mr Oswald claimed. No question about it.
it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting.
Who suggested that Lee claimed that he was out in front at the time of the murder???
Please read Bookhouts report on page 619 of the WR......
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm
Bookhout wrote....that After the encounter with Officer Baker and Roy Truly, Lee took his coke down to the first floor and then went outside and stood around with Foreman Bill Shelly.
I'm not particularly interested in what action Lee took after the encounter with Baker..... I'm focused on the FACT that Lee Oswald had already obtained a Coca-Cola from the vending machine and was CALMLY DRINKING A COKE when Baker burst into the lunchroom.
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Says Foghorn Leghorn. The one member of this forum with a thread dedicated to his fabrications.
So you support Mr Von Pea Brain in his stance that the lead from the core of a jacketed bullet will have the grooves from the rifling in the barrel of the rifle from which the bullet was fired ....and there fore the tiny pieces of lead core that were found in the Limo could be traced to the rifle....
If you believe that ....You undoubtedly hop outta bed on Easter Sunday and run out to find the pretty eggs the Easter Bunny has left.....
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No offence, Mr Cakebread, but it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting. And he most certainly wouldn't have fabricated such a claim.
"Then went outside to watch the P. Parade": this is what Mr Oswald claimed. No question about it.
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Thanks for posting the scribbled notes of FBI Agent James Hosty....( can you post all of his scribbled notes ?)
After reading Hosty's notes I believe that he's saying that Lee said that he went outside to watch the parade and he ( Lee) wasn't even aware that JFK had been murdered when he left the lunchroom after the Baker Truly Encounter. IOW.... Lee was unaware of the shooting until he got outside.... And even then he didn't get excited about the event.....He simply assumed that someone had set off some firecrackers and the spectators imaginations were running wild....And that's not all that far fetched... He had witnessed NONE of it....So he didn't really believe it, but What the hell...It was a good excuse to go to a cool theater and rest.....
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So you support Mr Von Pea Brain in his stance that the lead from the core of a jacketed bullet will have the grooves from the rifling in the barrel of the rifle from which the bullet was fired ....and there fore the tiny pieces of lead core that were found in the Limo could be traced to the rifle....
If you believe that ....You undoubtedly hop outta bed on Easter Sunday and run out to find the pretty eggs the Easter Bunny has left.....
If it's true (and that's a big IF since it just may be an additional fabrication from the king of fabrications) then the answer would probably be no* but CE-569 was found by both the WC and HSCA experts to have been fired from CE-139. One thing is for sure. I'll place my money on DVP over Foghorn Leghorn (you) when it comes to anything that requires critical thought.
*The opinion of a layman on the subject
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If it's true (and that's a big IF since it just may be an additional fabrication from the king of fabrications) then the answer would probably be no* but CE-569 was found by both the WC and HSCA experts to have been fired from CE-139. One thing is for sure. I'll place my money on DVP over Foghorn Leghorn (you) when it comes to anything that requires critical thought.
*The opinion of a layman on the subject
I'll place my money on DVP over Foghorn Leghorn (you) when it comes to anything that requires critical thought. Thumb1:
Thank you....An open admission that you can't think for yourself. That's no surprise ... It's obvious to everybody who has read your posts.
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(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Thanks for posting the scribbled notes of FBI Agent James Hosty....( can you post all of his scribbled notes ?)
After reading Hosty's notes I believe that he's saying that Lee said that he went outside to watch the parade and he ( Lee) wasn't even aware that JFK had been murdered when he left the lunchroom after the Baker Truly Encounter. IOW.... Lee was unaware of the shooting until he got outside....
So Mr Oswald had a cop put a pistol to his gut and ask him if he worked there, and shortly after this had Mrs Reid tell him, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him", and then went outside thinking he was going to catch the Presidential parade?
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Thanks for posting the scribbled notes of FBI Agent James Hosty....( can you post all of his scribbled notes ?)
I've never seen this notes before. Is there a link? I know that he had written a book.
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So Mr Oswald had a cop put a pistol to his gut and ask him if he worked there, and shortly after this had Mrs Reid tell him, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him", and then went outside thinking he was going to catch the Presidential parade?
Alan....May I remind you that your using the testimony that was extracted from Mrs Reid.... We have no real absolute proof that Mrs reid actually saw Lee Oswald and said to him "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",
I'll grant that is what she stated in her testimony ....But that doesn't prove that she did not make it up out of thin air on the afternoon of the assassination.
It could have been nothing but an innocuous remark by Mrs Reid, which she intended as an insertion of herself into the scene. Many people ( particularly older women ) like to embroidery and place themselves near an exciting event... Mrs Reid could easily have said..." My goodness...He walked right past me just a couple of minutes after the shooting. I didn't suspect that he had just shot JFK, when I said . Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",
But once she said that she couldn't very well say....."Oh, I just made that up for the girls in the office".....
Belin NEEDED mrs Reid's testimony....and he wasn't about to challenge her....in fact he encouraged her.....
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So Mr Oswald had a cop put a pistol to his gut and ask him if he worked there, and shortly after this had Mrs Reid tell him, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him", and then went outside thinking he was going to catch the Presidential parade?
Not really in evidence that one event was prior to the other.
Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?
Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.
Mrs. REID. Two minutes.
Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?
Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.
Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right?
Mrs. REID. Yes.[/b]
Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom--
Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.
Seems there that Oswald was just wandering around from the first floor to the second. Belin couldn't accept it. All those [joined at the hip with the Report] can't accept it.
BELIN. Was the coke full or empty?
Drinking an empty bottle?
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Not really in evidence that one event was prior to the other.
Seems there that Oswald was just wandering around from the first floor to the second. Belin couldn't accept it. All those [joined at the hip with the Report] can't accept it. Drinking an empty bottle?
Drinking an empty bottle?
That was simply a slimy lawyers trick to call attention to the bottle of coke to lend credibility to Mrs Reid's story.....
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So you support Mr Von Pea Brain in his stance that the lead from the core of a jacketed bullet will have the grooves from the rifling in the barrel of the rifle from which the bullet was fired ....and therefore the tiny pieces of lead core that were found in the Limo could be traced to the rifle....
I never have said that the TINY little fragments of bullet (which were found under Nellie Connally's seat) "could be traced to the rifle". I've never implied any such ludicrous thing. But the two larger fragments found in the front seat of the limo both had enough of the copper jacket attached to them so that the FBI could positively link both fragments to the C2766 rifle. [See the pics in the article below.]
Cakebread loses again.......as per the norm.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/ce567-and-ce569.html
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Of course we know that the timeline did not allow for LHO to have the time to get the change out of his pocket and get a coke out of the coke machine and then be standing there calm with a coke in his hand while Baker has a gun pointing at him . The hits just keep on coming !
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I've never seen this notes before. Is there a link? I know that he had written a book.
You will grow old awaiting responsiveness from Walt.... but to be fair, the original source link he likely obtained the note image excerpt
he posted is probably verboten to post on this forum.
A Link (https://books.google.com/books?id=Eoi7x5i_bDkC&pg=PT40&dq=by+james+hosty+now+when+the+police+apprehended+you&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ7OLYxNDgAhUNmuAKHV5YDcUQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=by%20james%20hosty%20now%20when%20the%20police%20apprehended%20you&f=false)
Assignment: Oswald
By James P. Hosty, Thomas Hosty
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationTranscribed.jpg)
http://www.jfklancer.com/Hosty_Notes.html
http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/hostynotes_LHO.gif
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)
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I never have said that the TINY little fragments of bullet (which were found under Nellie Connally's seat) "could be traced to the rifle". I've never implied any such ludicrous thing. But the two larger fragments found in the front seat of the limo both had enough of the copper jacket attached to them so that the FBI could positively link both fragments to the C2766 rifle. [See the pics in the article below.]
Cakebread loses again.......as per the norm.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/ce567-and-ce569.html
the two larger fragments found in the front seat of the limo both had enough of the copper jacket attached to them so that the FBI could positively link both fragments to the C2766 rifle. [See the pics in the article below.]
Utter Bull Stuff!!..... You're either very stupid, or a damned liar....Von Pea Brain. ( Actually I believe that you're stupid... and a damned liar.)
Perhaps you've never heard the conversation between Hoover and LBJ in which Hoover tells LBJ that the fragments from the limo are useless as evidence to verify they had been fired from the rifle. In reality Hoover was telling LBJ not to wory because nobody could prove that the fragments had NOT been fired from "Oswald's" carcano (CE 139)
Those fragments indicate that the rifle owned by Lee H. Oswald was the weapon that killed President John F. Kennedy.
This is your big opportunity Pea Brain..... DEMONSTRATE how those fragments could be used to determine the groove width, twist rate, and any identifying machine marks from the rifle's barrel.... Or even simpler....Tell us how YOU can determine the caliber of the bullet....
C'mon big mouth....Step right up and show the world that you're smarter then any ballistics expert in the world....
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Of course we know that the timeline did not allow for LHO to have the time to get the change out of his pocket and get a coke out of the coke machine and then be standing there calm with a coke in his hand while Baker has a gun pointing at him . The hits just keep on coming !
Mike, I'm happy to see someone who doesn't repeat the BS about Baker having his revolver jammed in Lee's belly.... I doubt that Baker even had the revolver pointed at Lee....I can accept that Baker had his revolver in his hand...but as far as actually having it aimed at Lee...I doubt it....And I scoff at the idea that he had the revolver jammed in Lee's belly.
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@Creepy Walt:
It depends on which of the "Limo Fragments" you're talking about at any given time. The TINY little fragments under Nellie's seat couldn't be traced to the Carcano, no. Nobody ever said they could be.
But the two larger fragments (CE567 and 569) were definitely fired from Oswald's rifle, as per the testimony of Bob Frazier of the FBI....
JOHN J. McCLOY - And you would say the same thing of Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet 399 was fired from that rifle?
ROBERT A. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY - And the fragment 567---
Mr. FRAZIER - 567, the one we have just finished.
Mr. McCLOY - Was likewise a portion of a bullet fired from that rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY - You have no doubt about any of those?
Mr. FRAZIER - None whatsoever.
[...]
MELVIN EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet fragment with a view to determining whether it had been fired from the rifle, Exhibit 139?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - What was your conclusion?
Mr. FRAZIER - This bullet fragment, Exhibit 569, was fired from this particular rifle, 139.
Mr. EISENBERG - Again to the exclusion of all other rifles?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
----------------------------
Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Robert A. Frazier of the Federal Bureau of Investigation was nothing but a big fat liar! Right, Cakebread?
----------------------------
And there's also the testimony of the independent firearms expert, Joseph Nicol....
JOSEPH D. NICOL. Yes. It is my opinion that the same weapon that fired Commission's Exhibit 572 also fired the projectiles in Commission's Exhibits 569, 567, and 399.
Mr. EISENBERG. That would be to the exclusion of all other weapons?
Mr. NICOL. Correct.
----------------------------
Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Joseph D. Nicol was nothing but a big fat liar too! Right, Cakebread?
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@Creepy Walt:
It depends on which of the "Limo Fragments" you're talking about at any given time. The TINY little fragments under Nellie's seat couldn't be traced to the Carcano, no. Nobody ever said they could be.
But the two larger fragments (CE567 and 569) were definitely fired from Oswald's rifle, as per the testimony of Bob Frazier of the FBI....
JOHN J. McCLOY - And you would say the same thing of Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet 399 was fired from that rifle?
ROBERT A. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY - And the fragment 567---
Mr. FRAZIER - 567, the one we have just finished.
Mr. McCLOY - Was likewise a portion of a bullet fired from that rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY - You have no doubt about any of those?
Mr. FRAZIER - None whatsoever.
[...]
MELVIN EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet fragment with a view to determining whether it had been fired from the rifle, Exhibit 139?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - What was your conclusion?
Mr. FRAZIER - This bullet fragment, Exhibit 569, was fired from this particular rifle, 139.
Mr. EISENBERG - Again to the exclusion of all other rifles?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
----------------------------
Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Robert A. Frazier of the Federal Bureau of Investigation was nothing but a big fat liar! Right, Cakebread?
----------------------------
And there's also the testimony of the independent firearms expert, Joseph Nicol....
JOSEPH D. NICOL. Yes. It is my opinion that the same weapon that fired Commission's Exhibit 572 also fired the projectiles in Commission's Exhibits 569, 567, and 399.
Mr. EISENBERG. That would be to the exclusion of all other weapons?
Mr. NICOL. Correct.
----------------------------
Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Joseph D. Nicol was nothing but a big fat liar too! Right, Cakebread?
Hoover's lap dog....Robert Frazier?? You've got to be kidding.....He's a bigger liar than you....( and that's something hard to find)
But apparently you're too stupid to understand that I asked YOU (David Von Pea Brain) to demonstrate how YOU can show us how YOU can determine the groove width, the twist rate, and the caliber of the fragments in the photos that YOU posted.
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TINY little fragments of bullet (which were found under Nellie Connally's seat)
Were they ever entered as exhibits?
The Rifle Bullets
In addition to the three cartridge cases found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a nearly whole bullet was found on Governor Connally's stretcher and two bullet fragments were found in the front of the President's car. 40 The stretcher bullet weighed 158.6 grains, or several grains less than the average Western Cartridge Co. 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano bullet.41 It was slightly flattened, but otherwise unmutilated. 42 The two bullet fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains, respectively. 43 The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose area, as shown by its rounded contour and the
character of the markings it bore. 44 The lighter fragment consisted of bullet's base portion, as shown by its shape and by the presence of a cannelure. 45 The two fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one bullet or of two separate bullets. 46 However, each had sufficient unmutilated area to provide the basis of an identification. 47 Based on a comparison with test bullets fired from the C2766 rifle, the stretcher bullet and both bullet fragments were identified as having been fired from the C2766 rifle. 48
I don't really know how they did all that. I read something about neutron activated or maybe it was spectroscopy or some sort of scientific analysis...but anyway, I read something about Hoover saying that the analytical differences were very close in identity. From what I understand...any difference at all is a bust in the process of complete identification. To proclaim with great certainty that a bullet was found on Connally's stretcher is quite a stretch in itself ...but then there are plenty of threads already running on that. This thread has been hijacked [as usual] so I might as well join in.
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Hoover's lap dog....Robert Frazier?? You've got to be kidding.....He's a...liar.
Why of course he is. He said something that Cakebread The Kook doesn't like....so, he's automatically a big fat liar! (What a surprise!)
~yawn~
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Alan....May I remind you that your using the testimony that was extracted from Mrs Reid.... We have no real absolute proof that Mrs reid actually saw Lee Oswald and said to him "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",
I'll grant that is what she stated in her testimony ....But that doesn't prove that she did not make it up out of thin air on the afternoon of the assassination.
It could have been nothing but an innocuous remark by Mrs Reid, which she intended as an insertion of herself into the scene. Many people ( particularly older women ) like to embroidery and place themselves near an exciting event... Mrs Reid could easily have said..." My goodness...He walked right past me just a couple of minutes after the shooting. I didn't suspect that he had just shot JFK, when I said . Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",
But once she said that she couldn't very well say....."Oh, I just made that up for the girls in the office".....
Belin NEEDED mrs Reid's testimony....and he wasn't about to challenge her....in fact he encouraged her.....
You're halfway there, Mr Cakebread! Thumb1:
Mr Oswald visited the 2nd fl lunchroom for a coke before the assassination. Carolyn Arnold & Sarah Stanton saw him there.
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
The encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly happened at the front entrance. Mr Oswald was one of the people Officer Baker saw 'standing around' there when he dashed into the building.
This incident was covered up by being moved to the 2nd fl lunchroom. Mr Oswald's reported claims in custody were amended accordingly.
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You're halfway there, Mr Cakebread! Thumb1:
Mr Oswald visited the 2nd fl lunchroom for a coke before the assassination. Carolyn Arnold & Sarah Stanton saw him there.
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
The encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly happened at the front entrance. Mr Oswald was one of the people Officer Baker saw 'standing around' there when he dashed into the building.
This incident was covered up by being moved to the 2nd fl lunchroom. Mr Oswald's reported claims in custody were amended accordingly.
Now! As for Mrs Reid!
Don't you find it just a teeny weeny bitsy bit... odd that three people standing out front together for the motorcade---------Mr Truly, Mr Campbell, Mrs Reid-----------would be the only three people to have talked about seeing Mr Oswald right after the assassination? Not seeing him together in the one sighting, mind. No! Immediately after the shots, our trio split up and went their separate ways, yet each somehow managed to do what not a single other person working in that building did----------see Mr Oswald and talk about the fact.
Don't be fooled! Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story. That's why her name is written (misspelled) at the bottom of his Saturday affidivat: he fed her to them.
(https://i.imgur.com/QmVTVxz.jpg)
If only if only if only Mrs G. L. Hine hadn't been in that 2nd fl office during the motorcade! Talk about complicating the plot! :'(
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It isn't surprising that the killer of the POTUS was the centre of any witness recollection ... at least those who encountered him within minutes of the murder. It makes perfect sense.
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Alan, what's the reference for this interview of LHO by Capt Fritz?
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It isn't surprising that the killer of the POTUS was the centre of any witness recollection ... at least those who encountered him within minutes of the murder. It makes perfect sense.
Way to miss the point, Mr Howsley! Thumb1:
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Alan, what's the reference for this interview of LHO by Capt Fritz?
I don't understand the question, Mr Nason!
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Friends, we must take time to let the full implications of the newly-revealed Hosty notes sink in!
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" is completely incompatible with his having just been told by Mrs Reid that JFK had been shot.
Why would Mr Oswald make such a claim?
Let's suppose he's lying, shall we? Let's suppose he was the 6th fl shooter...
-----------He ran down the back stairs and went into the 2nd fl lunchroom
-----------An officer yelled to him and challenged him at gunpoint
-----------His boss vouched for him
-----------He took his coke through the 2nd fl office area and was passed by a woman saying 'The President has been shot!'
-----------He went downstairs and out.
OK! So Mr Oswald in custody knows he was seen by 3 people on the 2nd floor. This is hardly a disaster----------in fact it's an enormous stroke of luck, something he can easily build into a story of having been on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting.... Puts quite some distance between him and that 6th fl window! Thumb1:
So! He freely admits to what he can be sure those 3 people are going to be telling the police anyway:
-------------I was eating lunch in the 2nd fl lunchroom when a cop came in
-------------Wondering what was wrong, I immediately made my way to the front stairs
-------------A lady told me what had just happened outside
-------------I went out to see what was going on.
All very easy, no? Our shooter has managed----somehow!-----not to be seen on one of the upper floors. Now he has in his favor no fewer than 3 sightings of him by respectable people.
About the most idiotic thing he can do is to pretend these things never happened and tell Captain Fritz, "Well, I went outside to watch the Presidential parade".
Yet-----------that is just what he says!
Why would he tell such a wholly unnecessary lie? ???
And NB NB NB!: Why would his obvious lie be suppressed by Captain Fritz & Co. and only reach the light of day 55 years later? :o
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FRITZ: Okay, son, so you admit one of our men saw you in the lunchroom on the second floor?
OSWALD: Naturally if I was in the lunchroom at that time, yes, sir.
FRITZ: What were you doing there?
OSWALD: I had just bought a Coca Cola from the machine they have in there.
FRITZ: What did the officer say to you?
OSWALD: Well, he put a pistol up to my stomach and said 'Do you work here?' I told him I did, and my boss Mr Truly told him I was telling the truth.
FRITZ: What happened next?
OSWALD: Well, they went racing up the stairs.
FRITZ: What did you do then?
OSWALD: Well, I figured the policeman had given me a warning not to miss the President's visit. He and Mr Truly sure looked real keen to get upstairs for a good view of the parade themselves. So I brought my Coca Cola downstairs and went outside to watch the parade.
FRITZ: Did you speak to anyone on the way down?
OSWALD: Yes, sir. As I was going through the office towards the front stairway, a woman who works up there said to me, 'The President should be shot! But I hope they don't kill him.'
FRITZ: What did you say to her?
OSWALD: Oh nothing. I just muttered 'Crazy damn fascist' under my breath. Then I went downstairs and out front.
FRITZ: Let me get this clear, son. You're saying you went outside to watch the Presidential Parade?
OSWALD: Yes, sir. I went out on to the front steps.
FRITZ: What did you see when you got out onto the steps?
OSWALD: Well, it looked like people were real unhappy about the President coming to town. There was screaming and hollering and crying.
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Now! As for Mrs Reid!
Don't you find it just a teeny weeny bitsy bit... odd that three people standing out front together for the motorcade---------Mr Truly, Mr Campbell, Mrs Reid-----------would be the only three people to have talked about seeing Mr Oswald right after the assassination? Not seeing him together in the one sighting, mind. No! Immediately after the shots, our trio split up and went their separate ways, yet each somehow managed to do what not a single other person working in that building did----------see Mr Oswald and talk about the fact.
Don't be fooled! Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story. That's why her name is written (misspelled) at the bottom of his Saturday affidivat: he fed her to them.
(https://i.imgur.com/QmVTVxz.jpg)
If only if only if only Mrs G. L. Hine hadn't been in that 2nd fl office during the motorcade! Talk about complicating the plot! :'(
Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story.
Alan, you can't simply ignore the evidence and make up your own plot....
I believe the evidence shows at Lee went from the first floor Domino Room to the second floor lunchroom at about the time that JFK was murdered.....He may have been in that lunchroom at the time the shots were fired and never heard them...And that would explain why he was startled when Baker burst into the lunchroom....
I doubt that he had a clue what was going on until he went outside.... And even then he didn't realize that JFK had been shot. He certainly heard people talking about the shots being fired but nobody actually knew that JFK had been hit.....( Recall Mrs Reid saying that she didn't know if JFK had been hit)
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Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story.
Alan, you can't simply ignore the evidence and make up your own plot....
I believe the evidence shows at Lee went from the first floor Domino Room to the second floor lunchroom at about the time that JFK was murdered.....He may have been in that lunchroom at the time the shots were fired and never heard them...And that would explain why he was startled when Baker burst into the lunchroom....
I doubt that he had a clue what was going on until he went outside.... And even then he didn't realize that JFK had been shot. He certainly heard people talking about the shots being fired but nobody actually knew that JFK had been hit.....( Recall Mrs Reid saying that she didn't know if JFK had been hit)
So Mr Oswald is challenged at gunpoint by a cop, learns from Mrs Reid that shots have been fired outside and says to himself, 'Gee, think I'll go outside to watch the parade'.
The parade??
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Friends, we must take time to let the full implications of the newly-revealed Hosty notes sink in!
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" is completely incompatible with his having just been told by Mrs Reid that JFK had been shot.
Why would Mr Oswald make such a claim?
Let's suppose he's lying, shall we? Let's suppose he was the 6th fl shooter...
-----------He ran down the back stairs and went into the 2nd fl lunchroom
-----------An officer yelled to him and challenged him at gunpoint
-----------His boss vouched for him
-----------He took his coke through the 2nd fl office area and was passed by a woman saying 'The President has been shot!'
-----------He went downstairs and out.
OK! So Mr Oswald in custody knows he was seen by 3 people on the 2nd floor. This is hardly a disaster----------in fact it's an enormous stroke of luck, something he can easily build into a story of having been on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting.... Puts quite some distance between him and that 6th fl window! Thumb1:
So! He freely admits to what he can be sure those 3 people are going to be telling the police anyway:
-------------I was eating lunch in the 2nd fl lunchroom when a cop came in
-------------Wondering what was wrong, I immediately made my way to the front stairs
-------------A lady told me what had just happened outside
-------------I went out to see what was going on.
All very easy, no? Our shooter has managed----somehow!-----not to be seen on one of the upper floors. Now he has in his favor no fewer than 3 sightings of him by respectable people.
About the most idiotic thing he can do is to pretend these things never happened and tell Captain Fritz, "Well, I went outside to watch the Presidential parade".
Yet-----------that is just what he says!
Why would he tell such a wholly unnecessary lie? ???
And NB NB NB!: Why would his obvious lie be suppressed by Captain Fritz & Co. and only reach the light of day 55 years later? :o
Yet-----------that is just what he says!
NO!...That is what Hosty says he said.... At the time of the interrogation (3:15 pm 11/22/63) Lee probably wasn't too concerned with being precise.... He was under the impression that he was a suspect in the death of some cop. I doubt that he was very careful in making sure he was precise in recalling his actions at the TSBD...because I'm sure he knew that there was no cop killed there.
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Why of course he is. He said something that Cakebread The Kook doesn't like....so, he's automatically a big fat liar! (What a surprise!)
~yawn~
C' mon Vonzie ...Tell us how YOU can determine the caliber, the groove width, the twist rate, and the proof that the bullet in the photo was fired from the TSBD carcano...
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread
You can just skip the BS text....and look at the pretty picture.....
Referring to the pic on the right....How wide is the groove that is clearly visible on the copper jacket....(hint....There is a scale right there....)
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You will grow old awaiting responsiveness from Walt.... but to be fair, the original source link he likely obtained the note image excerpt
he posted is probably verboten to post on this forum.
A Link (https://books.google.com/books?id=Eoi7x5i_bDkC&pg=PT40&dq=by+james+hosty+now+when+the+police+apprehended+you&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ7OLYxNDgAhUNmuAKHV5YDcUQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=by%20james%20hosty%20now%20when%20the%20police%20apprehended%20you&f=false)
Assignment: Oswald
By James P. Hosty, Thomas Hosty
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationTranscribed.jpg)
http://www.jfklancer.com/Hosty_Notes.html
http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/hostynotes_LHO.gif
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)
I especially like the entry that says that Lee told them that he had seen this rifle and two other rifles in Mr Truly's office on Wednesday November 20 1963.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)
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Yet-----------that is just what he says!
NO!...That is what Hosty says he said.... At the time of the interrogation (3:15 pm 11/22/63) Lee probably wasn't too concerned with being precise.... He was under the impression that he was a suspect in the death of some cop. I doubt that he was very careful in making sure he was precise in recalling his actions at the TSBD...because I'm sure he knew that there was no cop killed there.
We can be quite certain that Agent Hosty, given the magnitude of what was at stake, was not apt to be casual about the suspect's claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination.
The reason he wrote "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" was that he had clearly heard the suspect tell Captain Fritz that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.
And the reason this startling claim never made it into any official report was that it pointed to the rather unwelcome fact that the suspect had an alibi.
Not complicated!
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We can be quite certain that Agent Hosty, given the magnitude of what was at stake, was not apt to be casual about the suspect's claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination.
The reason he wrote "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" was that he had clearly heard the suspect tell Captain Fritz that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.
And the reason this startling claim never made it into any official report was that it pointed to the rather unwelcome fact that the suspect had an alibi.
Not complicated!
That's not an alibi. That's just another of the many Oswald lies. That's of course assuming Hosty heard correctly, took it down correctly and assuming that people are interpreting his notes correctly. Hosty isn't around to confirm one way or the other so to me this can be left hanging out there as another question with no definite answer except the answer people choose to put on it.
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Walt....tell me exactly where he said that.
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That's not an alibi. That's just another of the many Oswald lies.
Proof emerges that the authorities lied about the accused assassin's answer to the question, 'Where were you when the President passed the building?', and what does the Warren Gullible say? 'Nothing to see here!'
Says it all really :D
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We can be quite certain that Agent Hosty, given the magnitude of what was at stake, was not apt to be casual about the suspect's claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination.
The reason he wrote "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" was that he had clearly heard the suspect tell Captain Fritz that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.
And the reason this startling claim never made it into any official report was that it pointed to the rather unwelcome fact that the suspect had an alibi.
Not complicated!
Alan, I'm 100% certain that Lee Oswald never fired any gun from the TSBD that day.....But I think you are putting too much faith in Hosty's notes. Hosty was under a great deal of duress when he was ordered to get his butt over to the DPD and make sure Oswald never said anything to implicate Hoover or his EXTRA SPECIAL agents. Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade....
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
But, I do welcome your honest debate ......
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Walt....tell me exactly where he said that.
Dale when you ask questions, please post what you are referring to......Just copy the statement and paste it before asking your question.
Thank you
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Alan, I'm 100% certain that Lee Oswald never fired any gun from the TSBD that day.....But I think you are putting too much faith in Hosty's notes. Hosty was under a great deal of duress when he was ordered to get his butt over to the DPD and make sure Oswald never said anything to implicate Hoover or his EXTRA SPECIAL agents. Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade....
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
But, I do welcome your honest debate ......
Thank you, Mr Cakebread! Thumb1:
"Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade...."
-----------My point entirely!
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Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade....
Fritz recorded Oswald stating...went ''out front with Bill Shelley" -----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=3&tab=page
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Fritz recorded Oswald stating...went ''out front with Bill Shelley" -----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=3&tab=page
Fritz recorded Oswald stating...went ''out front with Bill Shelley" -----
Yes ... But we don't know WHEN ... I believe that Lee saw Shelly outside on the street a few minutes after the shooting.....when he went outside to see what had caused the motorcycle cop to burst into the second floor lunchroom and demand what he was doing....
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I believe that Lee saw Shelly outside on the street a few minutes after the shooting.....when he went outside to see what had caused the motorcycle cop to burst into the second floor lunchroom and demand what he was doing....
We now know that this is not what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz at that first interview. He told him he bought the coke before the motorcade, went down to 1 and then went outside to watch the Presidential parade.
The unambiguous words in Hosty's notes cannot simply be wished away. They were hidden for 55+ years, but now they are out there for everyone to see.
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The unambiguous words in Hosty's notes
Remain obscure.
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Remain obscure.
Indeed!
"Then went outside"----maybe Mr Oswald meant the Depository roof?
"to watch"----maybe Mr Oswald went up to the roof to pick up his watch which he had left there earlier in the day?
"P. Parade"----maybe "Parade" is actually "Paracle", i.e. short for "Paraclete"?
In short, it is at least as likely that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he slipped up to the roof to pick up his watch and meditate p[rayerfully on the] Paracle[te]'s promise that time could be transcended as that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he went outside to watch the Presidential parade.
If only Agent Hosty had used clear language! :'(
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Thank you, Mr Cakebread! Thumb1:
"Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade...."
-----------My point entirely!
Alan, let's examine Hosty's scribbled note....We can compare it with Willie Fritz's and James Bookhout's notes..... because they were also present and heard Lee's replies. It would be very helpful if you'd present all of the notes as Hosty wrote them. Because I'm now skeptical that Hosty wrote them during the interrogation, and I'm thinking that these notes that you've posted were actually written by James Bookhout. The chronology of the events as they are recorded is important.
O(swald) stated that he was present for work at the TSBD the morning of 11/22/63 and at noon went to lunch. He went to second floor to get a Coca- Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch the P(resident's) parade.
"and at noon went to lunch"---The word "noon" does not mean precisely 12:00 O'clock, and I think that you'll agree that Lee did not go to lunch at 12:00 O'clock, Because all of the other employees stopped work at about 11:50 and climbed aboard the elevators and left him behind on the fifth floor. They then went to the first floor and washed up for lunch, and then some of them sat down in the Domino room and ate their lunches, and they were there in the D room until at least 12:15. ...So we don't know at what time Lee went to the first floor, but we can assume that it must have been after 12:15. So Hosty's note does not mean that Lee went to lunch at 12:00 O'clock.
"He went to second floor to get a Coca-Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch."[/i--- We don't know if Lee started eating his lunch immediately, or perhaps looked at the newspaper for a few minutes before opening his lunch sack.....But since Hosty wrote that he went to the second floor lunchroom to buy a coke to drink with his lunch we must assume that he bought the coke BEFORE eating his lunch. and THEN AFTER buying the coke he returned to the Domino Room and ate his lunch and drank the Coca Cola.
'He then went outside to watch the President's parade"..... We know that this chronology is contradictory to the notes that Hosty himself published in his book Assignment: Oswald .... ( Those notes are posted in this thread...see link below)
And by 99% of the accounts....Baker and Truly encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom after he'd bought the coke ......
What say you?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)
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Remain obscure.
I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another of coffee.
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Alan, let's examine Hosty's scribbled note....We can compare it with Willie Fritz's and James Bookhout's notes..... because they were also present and heard Lee's replies. It would be very helpful if you'd present the all of the notes as Hosty wrote them. Because I'm now skeptical that Hosty wrote them during the interrogation, and I'm thinking that these notes that you've posted were actually written by James Bookhout. The chronology of the events as they are recorded them is important.
O(swald) stated that he was present for work at the TSBD the morning of 11/22/63 and at noon went to lunch. He went to second floor to get a Coca- Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch the P(resident's) parade.
"and at noon went to lunch"---The word "noon" does not mean precisely 12:00 O'clock, and I think that you'll agree that Lee did not go to lunch at 12:00 O'clock, Because all of the other employees stopped work at about 11:50 and climbed aboard the elevators and left him behind on the fifth floor. They then went to the first floor and washed up for lunch, and then some of them sat down in the Domino room and ate their lunches, and they were there in the D room until at least 12:15. ...So we don't know at what time Lee went to the first floor, but we can assume that it must have been after 12:15. So Hosty's note does not mean that Lee went to lunch at 12:00 O'clock.
"He went to second floor to get a Coca-Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch."[/i--- We don't know if Lee started eating his lunch immediately, or perhaps looked at the newspaper for a few minutes before opening his lunch sack.....But since Hosty wrote that he went to the second floor lunchroom to buy a coke to drink with his lunch we must assume that he bought the coke BEFORE eating his lunch. and THEN AFTER buying the coke he returned to the Domino Room and ate his lunch and drank the Coca Cola.
'He then went outside to watch the President's parade"..... We know that this chronology is contradictory to the notes that Hosty himself published in his book Assignment: Oswald .... ( Those notes are posted in this thread)
And by 99% of the accounts....Baker and Truly encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom after he'd bought the coke ......
What say you?
It is quite inaccurate to state that 99% of the accounts point to a Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter in the 2nd fl lunchroom!
-------------Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit
-------------What DPD were telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr O Campbell was telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz 11/22
-------------The joint interrogation report written by Agents Bookhout & Hosty 11/22
-------------Inspector Harry D. Holmes Warren Commission testimony ("First floor. Front entrance... Vestibule")
The 2nd fl lunchroom encounter was invented the evening of 11/22.
Now! There are two bombshells in the Hosty note:
Bombshell 1: Mr Oswald, far from confirming a 2nd fl lunchroom incident, spoke only of buying a coke up there before the motorcade
Bombshell 2: Mr Oswald, far from placing himself in the domino room at the time of the motorcade, spoke of having gone outside to watch the motorcade
Your LHO timeline:
1. Breaks for lunch about noon
2. Buys coke in 2nd fl lunchroom
3. Returns to first floor to eat lunch
Correct so far! Thumb1:
But! What happens next is not that Mr Oswald decides---------at what just so happens to be the very time the shooting is taking place---------to go back up for a second coke!
No! He hears the commotion/excitement out front as the motorcade approaches Elm Street, runs down to the front entrance and steps "outside to watch P. Parade".
He tells all this freely to Captain Fritz on 11/22/63. A decision is made to bury his claim in obfuscation, omission, misrepresentation---------and an excursus into outright fiction-writing (2nd fl lunchroom incident). Mr Oswald's death makes that decision a whole lot easier to implement.
Not until February 2019 will Mr Oswald finally be granted a chance to tell his own side of the story! There is an all too obvious reason for that, and years of attachment to the lunchroom story should not blind one to that reason.
Sorry, Mr Cakebread, but the inconvenient data in the Hosty notes cannot be wished away.
Thumb1:
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I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another of coffee.
Apology accepted! Thumb1:
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I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another of coffee.
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
These notes are NOT written by Hosty....I believe they were written by James Bookhout.....
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It is quite inaccurate to state that 99% of the accounts point to a Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter in the 2nd fl lunchroom!
-------------Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit
-------------What DPD were telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr O Campbell was telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz 11/22
-------------The joint interrogation report written by Agents Bookhout & Hosty 11/22
-------------Inspector Harry D. Holmes Warren Commission testimony ("First floor. Front entrance... Vestibule")
The 2nd fl lunchroom encounter was invented the evening of 11/22.
Now! There are two bombshells in the Hosty note:
Bombshell 1: Mr Oswald, far from confirming a 2nd fl lunchroom incident, spoke only of buying a coke up there before the motorcade
Bombshell 2: Mr Oswald, far from placing himself in the domino room at the time of the motorcade, spoke of having gone outside to watch the motorcade
Your LHO timeline:
1. Breaks for lunch about noon
2. Buys coke in 2nd fl lunchroom
3. Returns to first floor to eat lunch
Correct so far! Thumb1:
But! What happens next is not that Mr Oswald decides---------at what just so happens to be the very time the shooting is taking place---------to go back up for a second coke!
No! He hears the commotion/excitement out front as the motorcade approaches Elm Street, runs down to the front entrance and steps "outside to watch P. Parade".
He tells all this freely to Captain Fritz on 11/22/63. A decision is made to bury his claim in obfuscation, omission, misrepresentation---------and an excursus into outright fiction-writing (2nd fl lunchroom incident). Mr Oswald's death makes that decision a whole lot easier to implement.
Not until February 2019 will Mr Oswald finally be granted a chance to tell his own side of the story! There is an all too obvious reason for that, and years of attachment to the lunchroom story should blind one to that reason.
Sorry, Mr Cakebread, but the inconvenient data in the Hosty notes cannot be wished away.
Thumb1:
These notes were NOT written by Hosty.....They were written by James Bookhout.....
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
On page 613 of WR there is a copy of James Bookhout's typed report (see link below)....In that report he makes the same erroneous statement that he made in his scribbled notes....EXCEPT in the typed report he corrects himself and instead of saying the Lee went to outside to watch the P parade, he wrote....
Quote... "Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building"...unquote
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0319a.htm
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These notes were NOT written by Hosty.....They were written by James Bookhout.....
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
On page 613 of WR there is a copy of James Bookhout's typed report ....In that report he makes the same erroneous statement that he made in his scribbled notes....EXCEPT in the typed report he corrects himself and instead of saying the Lee went to outside to watch the P parade, he wrote....
Quote... "Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building"...unquote
Incorrect! The report you quote from is not 'James Bookhout's typed report', it is the typed joint report of Jameses Hosty & Bookhout.
To dismiss the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" as the "erroneous statement" in the "scribbled notes", and to see nothing at all suspicious in the fact that it got translated to the much vaguer "on the first floor" in the typed joint report, only to be disappeared completely in the subsequent solo Bookhout report, is merely to show that your mind is completely closed to new evidence.
You're free to continue believing in the lunchroom incident, Mr Cakebread, but at least be clear about what that belief now entails:
------------Mr Oswald lied when he told Captain Fritz he bought that Coca Cola before the motorcade
------------Hosty, Bookhout et al's systematic suppression of Mr Oswald's claim is of no evidentiary value.
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Incorrect! The report you quote from is not 'James Bookhout's typed report', it is the typed joint report of Jameses Hosty & Bookhout.
To dismiss the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" as the "erroneous statement" in the "scribbled notes", and to see nothing at all suspicious in the fact that it got translated to the much vaguer "on the first floor" in the typed joint report, only to be disappeared completely in the subsequent solo Bookhout report, is merely to show that your mind is completely closed to new evidence.
You're free to continue believing in the lunchroom incident, Mr Cakebread, but at least be clear about what that belief now entails:
------------Mr Oswald lied when he told Captain Fritz he bought that Coca Cola before the motorcade
------------Hosty, Bookhout et al's systematic suppression of Mr Oswald's claim is of no evidentiary value.
Alan...You're being a fool......
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I've never seen this notes before. Is there a link? I know that he had written a book.
Hi Jerry....I'm convinced that the scribbled notes are the notes of James Bookhout.....I've never seen them either.....But I would like to see them....
But I doubt that Mr Alan Ford will oblige us and post them.....
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Does anybody have any testimony or an affidavit where Frazier says he left the stairs prior to going back into the TSBD and going downstairs to eat his couple of all important cheese sandwiches? When did Frazier have the opportunity to see Oswald outside after the shooting?
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Does anybody have any testimony or an affidavit where Frazier says he left the stairs prior to going back into the TSBD and going downstairs to eat his couple of all important cheese sandwiches? When did Frazier have the opportunity to see Oswald outside after the shooting?
None of Mr B. Lovelady's official statements support his being outside on the steps at the time Messrs Hughes & Martin are filming, yet.... there he is!
Mr Frazier kept something hidden for nearly 40 years. And then he revealed it.
He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.
Thumb1:
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None of Mr B. Lovelady's official statements support his being outside on the steps at the time Messrs Hughes & Martin are filming, yet.... there he is!
Mr Frazier kept something hidden for nearly 40 years. And then he revealed it.
He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.
Thumb1:
He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.
I'll assume that you're referring to the paper bag..... Personally I don't believe that Frazier saw Lee with an extra long paper bag that morning....
He might have seen a bag that was a bit longer than the usual lunch sack, but it was not even the 24 inch length that he said he saw.
But in being fair....I can't blame him for trying to keep himself out of the fire. However He is tuck with the story of seeing Lee carrying a long paper bag, and he dare not recant that tale.....because if he does....They'll get him for lying to the authorities.....
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He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.
But in being fair....I can't blame him for trying to keep himself out of the fire. However He is stuck with the story of not seeing Lee carrying a long paper bag on the front steps at the time of the shooting, and he dare not recant that tale.....because if he does....They'll get him for lying to the authorities.....
Thumb1:
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Thumb1:
So You believe that BWF said that he did NOT see Lee on the front steps at the time of the shooting.?? Do I have that right mr Ford?
I would agree completely ....Because Frazier would have to be a very strange dude to be looking backward over his shoulder to see if Lee Oswald was on the Steps when all hell is breaking loose in front of him....
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He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.
I'll assume that you're referring to the paper bag..... Personally I don't believe that Frazier saw Lee with an extra long paper bag that morning....
He might have seen a bag that was a bit longer than the usual lunch sack, but it was not even the 24 inch length that he said he saw.
But in being fair....I can't blame him for trying to keep himself out of the fire. However He is stuck with the story of seeing Lee carrying a long paper bag, and he dare not recant that tale.....because if he does....They'll get him for lying to the authorities.....
So you've added another to your waiting line of threatened guillotine victims? What's the Federal and/or Texas statue of limitations on perjury ?
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Quote from: Jerry Freeman on February 24, 2019, 01:37:53 PM
"I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another [cup] of coffee."
Apology accepted! Thumb1:
I'm all thumbs at typing [and drinking coffee with the other hand] Regarding reply #50...Can you expand on that? Where do you really think Oswald was when the shots were fired? Final answer.
So You believe that BWF said that he did NOT see Lee on the front steps at the time of the shooting.?? Do I have that right mr Ford? I would agree completely ....Because Frazier would have to be a very strange dude to be looking backward over his shoulder to see if Lee Oswald was on the Steps when all hell is breaking loose in front of him....
I suggested earlier that.. who would notice Oswald when President Kennedy was passing right in front of them?
DVP suggested...Reply #10But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they? No, they wanted to KEEP that document (and not even cross out the word "Coke" entirely, which was another possibility if they wanted to HIDE the Coke).
And in Reply #27..... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11921&relPageId=2
I don't think Hoover initially actually read that document. Do we think he thoroughly examined every single sheet of paper that may have crossed his desk? He signed [or his signature was stamped] on the cover sheet and passed on to the Commission people.
I also don't think the Commissioners read it or their staff scrutinized every word. It just showed up as a response to a request asking where everyone was located in that lunchroom encounter. Regarding the Baker note ...also written was -- "On the second xxxxxxxxx" and then crossed out was?... I believe 'or third floor'. It was crossed out and initialed. The lunchroom was not on the third floor.
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Frazier never states that he left the stairs. He says he stayed on the steps for a few minutes then went in and went down to the basement. There is no way Frazier saw Oswald "coming up Houston" if he's being truthful. So where did Frazier actually see Oswald? Film shows Baker hitting the area in front of the steps while Frazier , who states he never saw Baker at all, is still standing on the steps. There are people in the front of the TSBD looking up to the upper floors of the building already before Baker is on the steps. Frazier is statuesque like a dazed nincompoop on the steps in front of the doors while numerous people are in the process of going back into the TSBD where something has occurred to cause people to look up to the windows. Frazier lied, Baker has no idea how long it took from his hearing the shots, parking his bike, running to the building , up the steps , attempting to catch an elevator to no avail then taking the stairs to the second floor lunchroom. All this in 90 seconds? BS: BS: BS: The foundation of information that some of you internet detectives are utilizing is as bogus as the conclusions you have arrived at.
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Ptm Baker had already given his testimony to the Warren Commission but for some unknown reason the FBI had him come in, sit down and hand write another affidavit just before the Commission's works went into print. This document was entered as CE-3076.
In his testimony, the Coke machine was mentioned but there was no mention of Oswald drinking a beverage.
However in his first mention of the lunchroom encounter Baker stated that they [He and Truly] had made their way up to the third or forth floor before Oswald was encountered. That seems rather puzzling. By the time he testified though, he had learned to count to two.
"Mr. Belin - What happened?"
Mr. BAKER -" As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Mr Baker had mentioned that Oswald was drinking a coke in earlier interviews. Apparently this could have been the reasoning for the last minute affidavit.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
The words drinking a Coke are crossed out. I suppose it seemed a bit much to have to fit all that in after an alleged super dive from the sixth floor.
The original topic of this thread was..... about the affidavit that was written by an FBI agent under the guise that DPD officer Baker had recanted his testimony about seeing Lee Oswald "drinking a coke" in the second floor lunchroom just seconds after the shots were fired.
At the time that Baker wrote his original affidavit on 11/22/63 nobody knew that the proposed THEORY was invalid. Nobody was aware that the timing involved in attempting to prove the validity the THEORY that the Lee Oswald had fired from the SE corner window, would be shown to be impossible by attempts to "re-enact" the crime. That THEORY proposed that Lee Oswald ( who proclaimed he was a "patsy" and innocent) had fired a rifle from the SE corner window on the sixth floor and then made a mad dash to the lunchroom on the second floor of the TSBD, where he was seen calmly drinking a coke by DPD officer Marrion Baker less than 90 seconds after the first shot was fired.
Weeks later in attempting to duplicate the feat that was proposed in the THEORY it was discovered that Lee Osweald could NOT have committed the crime because there simply was not enough time between the first shot of the rifle and the Baker's encounter with Lee in the lunchroom. Lee simply could not have reached the lunchroom before Baker had reached the lunchroom ..... That was a FACT. However the commission that had been created by Lyndon Johnson , the man who had leaped into the most powerful seat in government, immediately following the murder, refused to accept that cold hard FACT.....so they immediately started cutting corners in an attempt to cut the elapsed time of imaginary actions of Lee Oswald. The first thing that had to go was the location of the rifle....
That rifle had been found BURIED beneath heavy boxes of books near the top of the stairs in the NW corner of the building. And Not only was the rifle BURIED BENEATH boxes of books, it was 15' 4" from the north wall of the building which made it out of reach for the proposed assassin as he supposedly dashed by as he fled from the sixth floor. LBJ's agents realized that it would have taken several minutes for the rifle to be hidden as it had been found, so they moved the location of the rifle closer to the stairs and simply inserted it between boxes of books and snapped pictures that were presented as authentic pictures of the scene.
But even that bit of deception was not enough to allow Lee Oswald to have reached the second floor lunchroom ahead of Marrion Baker who had said that he saw Lee calmly drinking a coke. If Lee had had enough time to buy a coke and had been drinking it, then that would have required that he had to have arrived at least thirty seconds before Baker arrived..... And there simply was not enough time available in the proposed THEORY
The problem arose when LBJ's agents started reviewing their work prior to the publication of the evidence. In reviewing that evidence they recognized that they could not simply burn Baker's affidavit, and claim that he had never told Chief Curry that he'd seen the murderous villain Oswald calmly drinking a coke after the shooting. The DPD had originally attempted to paint the image of Lee Oswald, as a mad man who could toast his feat of murder, by calmly drinking a Coca-Cola, and that story was published for the public. Thus They were forced to try to find some other way to expunge that "drinking a coke" from the record....
That's when one of LBJ's agent hit on the idea of creating another Baker affidavit . An affidavit that mentioned the act of drinking a coke but then expunged that entry by a simple crossing out of the words but still leaving them readable.... Sure, they could have torn up that affidavit and rewrote it and left out the "Drinking a coke" entry...but that was not the intent. Or they could have blacked out the words completely , but the whole idea behind the phony affidavit was to expunge the "drinking a coke"
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Then like fine tuned Swiss watches they both eventually ended up at the same theater. One in the balcony(the sinister one) eating popcorn and one innocent patsy sitting downstairs waiting to get his civil rights violated. Is that your results deduced by your best on the internet detective skills? Just brilliant.
Geeeeez.... What a revoltin development this is .... I find myself agreeing with Slo Gun...
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein! Thumb1:
If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Where did you find this Mr Ford?
I'd love to read the entire page......
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You shot JFK from the sixth floor, but you've been nabbed in a movie theater. The police captain is now grilling you. What do you tell him about where you were when JFK was shot?
Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer
-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.
'I was in the lunchroom on the second floor the whole time. First thing I knew anything was wrong was when a police officer came bursting in. Ask my boss, Mr Truly, he'll confirm what I'm saying. And just after that I spoke with a lady in the big office. Mrs Reed I think her name is. Talk to her.'
What you don't do is look a gift horse in the mouth by saying
---------------nothing about a confrontation with a police officer down in the lunchroom straight after the shooting
---------------not a blessed word about 'Mrs Reed'
---------------'Uh, I bought a coke in the lunchroom before the Presidential Parade and then went outside to watch the Parade'.
Bookhout & co's big mistake was not that they put words in the dead Mr Oswald's mouth but that they invented words so self-incriminatingly stupid as to give their squalid little game away.
What they should have done was have the dead Mr Oswald say, 'I don't have to tell you anything about where I was. This is political harassment on account of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I demand a shower. My lawyer will consider your keeping me here like this a violation of my hygiene rights'.
Shudda kept it simple, guys!
But hey, it worked for 55 years. And some folks are still fooled by it! Thumb1:
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You shot JFK from the sixth floor, but you've been nabbed in a movie theater. The police captain is now grilling you. What do you tell him about where you were when JFK was shot?
Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer
-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.
'I was in the lunchroom on the second floor the whole time. First thing I knew anything was wrong was when a police officer came bursting in. Ask my boss, Mr Truly, he'll confirm what I'm saying. And just after that I spoke with a lady in the big office. Mrs Reed I think her name is. Talk to her.'
What you don't do is look a gift horse in the mouth by saying
---------------nothing about a confrontation with a police officer down in the lunchroom straight after the shooting
---------------not a blessed word about 'Mrs Reed'
---------------'Uh, I'd gone outside to watch the Presidential Parade'.
Bookhout & co's big mistake was not that they put words in the dead Mr Oswald's mouth but that they invented words so self-incriminatingly stupid as to give their squalid little game away.
What they should have done was have the dead Mr Oswald say, 'I don't have to tell you anything about where I was. This is political harassment on account of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I demand a shower. My lawyer will consider your keeping me here like this a violation of my hygiene rights'.
Shudda kept it simple, guys! Thumb1:
Alan you're using 20/20 hindsight.....
What do you tell him about where you were when JFK was shot?
Nobody said anything to Lee about being a suspect in the murder of JFK.... Read the notes....
Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer
Why would Lee present an alibi for something that he's not been accused of?
-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.
A lady that if she had seen and talked to Lee could provide an alibi .... But Lee doesn't even mention Mrs Reid. and that's a pretty strong indication that there was no meeting or encounter in the office area.
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This fact that Mrs Reid could not accurately describe the clothing that Lee was wearing when Baker and Truly saw him in the lunchroom just a couple of minutes earlier than Mrs Reid's alleged sighting of Lee Oswald. (Baker said that Lee was wearing a brown shirt or Jacket),so Mrs Reid's description should be enough to cause an alert student to question the validity of Mrs Reid's statement.
Actually it was the man walking away from the stairway on the 3rd or 4th floor who Baker said was wearing a brown jacket.
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Actually it was the man walking away from the stairway on the 3rd or 4th floor who Baker said was wearing a brown jacket.
Thank you, That's correct ..... But Baker DID see Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom as well as the man who was walking away from the stairs on an upper floor.
I simply can't recall if Baker ever attested to the clothing that Lee was wearing when he saw him calmly drinking a Coca-Cola in the second floor lunchroom.
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Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer
Why would Lee present an alibi for something that he's not been accused of?
As I've suggested before,
-------------Mr Oswald was asked in that first interrogation where he'd been at the time of the shooting, and his answer (out watching the parade) stunned them
-------------from this point forth, he was grilled on the rifle and on Tippit, and given the impression that he was suspected not of having personally shot JFK but of having been in on the assassination. (This last was done to Messrs Frazier and Molina as well.)
The first wind he got of a direct accusation of having been the actual shooter was "when the reporters in the hall axed [him] that question". He knew that the accusation was utterly absurd, and assumed the press had simply gotten the wrong end of the stick.
Why didn't he shout to the pressmen, "I was out on the front steps!"? Those asking this question need to ask themselves why he didn't shout, "I was down on the second floor! My boss saw me there!"
Having been kept in the dark by Fritz, he had no idea that the need for an alibi even arose. Any more than he knew that he wouldn't be leaving the weekend alive.
-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.
A lady that if she had seen and talked to Lee could provide an alibi .... But Lee doesn't even mention Mrs Reid. and that's a pretty strong indication that there was no meeting or encounter in the office area.
Correct! But Mrs Reid was fed to DPD by Mr Truly. Her fiction supported his.
There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)
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As I've suggested before,
-------------Mr Oswald was asked in that first interrogation where he'd been at the time of the shooting, and his answer (out watching the parade) stunned them
-------------from this point forth, he was grilled on the rifle and on Tippit, and given the impression that he was suspected not of having personally shot JFK but of having been in on the assassination. (This last was done to Messrs Frazier and Molina as well.)
The first wind he got of a direct accusation of having been the actual shooter was "when the reporters in the hall axed [him] that question". He knew that the accusation was utterly absurd, and assumed the press had simply gotten the wrong end of the stick.
Why didn't he shout to the pressmen, "I was out on the front steps!"? Those asking this question need to ask themselves why he didn't shout, "I was down on the second floor! My boss saw me there!"
Having been kept in the dark by Fritz, he had no idea that the need for an alibi even arose. Any more than he knew that he wouldn't be leaving the weekend alive.
Correct! But Mrs Reid was fed to DPD by Mr Truly. Her fiction supported his.
There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)
There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)
Alan, You have posted the scribbled notes of the interrogation of Lee Oswald, so you certainly must know that both the accused ( Lee Oswald)... and the accuser( The State, represented by Marrion Baker) were in total agreement that they had met in the second floor lunchroom just seconds after the shots were fired.
So how can you say that it didn't happen?
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There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)
Alan, You have posted the scribbled notes of the interrogation of Lee Oswald, so you certainly must know that both the accused ( Lee Oswald)... and the accuser( The State, represented by Marrion Baker) were in total agreement that they had met in the second floor lunchroom just seconds after the shots were fired.
So how can you say that it didn't happen?
Already explained, Mr Cakebread!
The 'Fritz' notes are not Fritz's own scribbled notes of the interrogation of Mr Oswald. They are Fritz's scribbled notes of Agent Bookhout's version of what Mr Oswald said in custody
----------the same Agent Bookhout who suppressed Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the 2nd fl lunchroom before the assassination and gone "outside to watch P. Parade"
----------the same Agent Bookhout who put an absurd claimed timeline into Mr Oswald's mouth.
Geddit now? ::)
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Already explained, Mr Cakebread!
The 'Fritz' notes are not Fritz's own scribbled notes of the interrogation of Mr Oswald. They are Fritz's scribbled notes of Agent Bookhout's version of what Mr Oswald said in custody
----------the same Agent Bookhout who suppressed Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the 2nd fl lunchroom before the assassination and gone "outside to watch P. Parade"
----------the same Agent Bookhout who put an absurd claimed timeline into Mr Oswald's mouth.
Geddit now? ::)
Yes...I understand that you think Fritz copied Bookhout's notes.... But I think that you've been smokin some funny tobacco... One glance at Fritz disorganized, truncated, scribbling would be enough to convince any rational person that Fritz jotted those notes as he heard Lee's replies.....
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein! Thumb1:
If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)
THe penmanship appears to be the same.....
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
s/ M. L. Baker
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Mary Rattan
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Ptm Baker had already given his testimony to the Warren Commission but for some unknown reason the FBI had him come in, sit down and hand write another affidavit just before the Commission's works went into print. This document was entered as CE-3076.
In his testimony, the Coke machine was mentioned but there was no mention of Oswald drinking a beverage.
However in his first mention of the lunchroom encounter Baker stated that they [He and Truly] had made their way up to the third or forth floor before Oswald was encountered. That seems rather puzzling. By the time he testified though, he had learned to count to two.
"Mr. Belin - What happened?"
Mr. BAKER -" As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Mr Baker had mentioned that Oswald was drinking a coke in earlier interviews. Apparently this could have been the reasoning for the last minute affidavit.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
The words drinking a Coke are crossed out. I suppose it seemed a bit much to have to fit all that in after an alleged super dive from the sixth floor.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
"On the second or third floor where the lunchroom is located I saw a man standing in the room and drinking a Coke".....
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If the soda was not a big deal then why would someone have looked at that and said " You know , come to think of it , I'm not sure now if LHO had a soda in his hand or not , but since the FBI said he did not have a soda in his hand, well they are always right because if he did then that would mean he had to dig the change out of his pocket and insert the change into the soda machine and then pull out the soda and open it and that would have just taken him a little longer than we thought for him to have made those shots and then mosey on down to the breakroom . Damn FBI , they are good ! Whew ! Hoover tells LBJ on the 29th of Nov. that LHO had made 3 shots in 3 seconds . Hoover was such an idiot !
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If the soda was not a big deal then why would someone have looked at that and said " You know , come to think of it , I'm not sure now if LHO had a soda in his hand or not , but since the FBI said he did not have a soda in his hand, well they are always right because if he did then that would mean he had to dig the change out of his pocket and insert the change into the soda machine and then pull out the soda and open it and that would have just taken him a little longer than we thought for him to have made those shots and then mosey on down to the breakroom . Damn FBI , they are good ! Whew ! Hoover tells LBJ on the 29th of Nov. that LHO had made 3 shots in 3 seconds . Hoover was such an idiot !
Actually Hoover was insane.... Very much like Adolph Hitler.
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Thumb1: Of course that is what I meant by 'it didn't look good'. The precious seconds it took to wiggle around the book stacks on the sixth floor...conceal a weapon... fly down the stairs ...dig change out of a pocket...select the right coins...deposit money...select drink...wait for drink to ka-chink out of the machine...open...then start consuming, didn't sit well with the concept of an agitated killer going on the run.
Wouldn't be that LHO was cute enough to think "I'll crab a coke"...thinking what would look more natural and casual for an employee to be getting a coke..what could be more innocent looking that that.
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If it turns out that Prayer Person is not Oswald, wouldn't that tend to incriminate him, especially if we are to believe that he was eating his lunch in the nearby Domino Room "at the time"?
Is that what John Iacoletti is so worried about?
Why would John Iacoletti be worried about your hypothetical questions?
Is there any good reason to think that a person sitting in the domino room would have heard shots? Did Troy West hear any shots from his position on the first floor which was closer to Elm Street?
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Imo, Oswald may have had a Dr.Pepper in hand BEFORE he came up to the 2nd floor, which would be not later than probably 12:12 given Carolyn Arnolds observation of Oswald actually SITTING in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 earliest to 12:20 latest. Yet, neither Stanton, nor Arnold apparently saw each other.
the late date Stanton relative recalling the story of a "Pepsi". That is rather close to "Pepper". Not coke, but "pepsi"? . Maybe its just a coincidence, idk.
And it would have been very easy for Sarah to have distinguished between a 1963 coke bottle and a 1963 Dr.Pepper bottle due the large solid white label of Dr.Pepper at lower 1/3rd part of the bottle, so not that implausible that Sarah might have actually stated the specific name. Nor that a relative many years later might misremember Dr.Pepper as "pepsi"
So this would change the hypothetical sequence to:
Oswald went to the Dr.Pepper machine on the 1st floor by rear stairs, got the Dr.Pepper, then went up to eat his lunch ALONE in the 2nd floor lunchroom, hoping that all the office woman had already left. This eating in the lunchroom alone, is alluded to by Billy Lovelady in an FBI statement refering to Oswald doing just that.
This may be why Stanton may have told the story to the relative as having seen Oswald just standing around in the area as opposed to having stated seeing Oswald go in or come out of, the lunchroom with the "pepsi" in hand.
At some point Oswald must have gone back down to the Domino room, having decided not to stay in the lunchroom after Carolyn Arnold saw him there. This is about the only way that Oswald could reasonably have probable view and also heard, James Jarman and Harold Norman returning to TSBD back door around 12:23.
That would be when Oswald likely would have left the Domino room and head towards the front lobby, reaching there around 12:24 or 12:25. That coincides with another Carolyn Arnold FBI statement of having seen Oswald at 12:25 on the 1st floor, as she "looked back". That FBI statement, Arnold actually signed her name.
Add in the 2 new 'notes" revealing "out front with Shelly" and "went out to watch P.Parade, and then Dr.Pepper bottle found, in the very recessed step, the one step down, that Prayerblob is located, and with some object raised to mouth with large white spot, on the West side of landing...it SURE IS AMAZINGLY coincidental.