JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on February 16, 2021, 01:16:08 PM
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Apparently the market has recently been flooded with some of the Carcano carbines that have been stored in Ethiopia for the past 50-years. If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version. Here is a link to a site that has them on sale:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html (https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html)
Reading the description and some of the reviews, these are being sold as is and you should have them inspected before firing.
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Apparently the market has recently been flooded with some of the Carcano carbines that have been stored in Ethiopia for the past 50-years. If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version. Here is a link to a site that has them on sale:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html (https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html)
Reading the description and some of the reviews, these are being sold as is and you should have them inspected before firing.
If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version.
The cacarno advertised is a model 91 TS ...The 91 TS is 36 1/16 inches long. The Klein's ad that was used to order the TSBD rifle stated that the rifle was 40 inches long. The rifle in the Kleins illustration appears to be a model 91/38 ( 40") with an odd ball rear sight. The rear sight is an adjustable sight.... actually the illustration doesn't mean much because it is merely an illustration and not the actual rifle that was sent to Dallas.
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If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version.
The cacarno advertised is a model 91 TS ...The 91 TS is 36 1/16 inches long. The Klein's ad that was used to order the TSBD rifle stated that the rifle was 40 inches long. The rifle in the Kleins illustration appears to be a model 91/38 ( 40") with an odd ball rear sight. The rear sight is an adjustable sight.... actually the illustration doesn't mean much because it is merely an illustration and not the actual rifle that was sent to Dallas.
LATE ISSUE! 6.5 ITALIAN CARBINE. ONLY 36"" OVERALL, WEIGHS ONLY 5 1/2 LBS. SHOWS ONLY SLIGHT USE, LIGHTLY OILED, TEST FIRED AND HEAD-SPACED, READY FOR SHOOTING. TURNED DOWN BOLT, THUMB SAFETY, 6- SHOT CLIP-FED. REAR OPEN SIGHT. FAST LOADING AND FAST FIRING.
C20-Tll96. Specially Priced.........$12.88
C20-T750. Carbine with Brand New Good Quality 4X Scope--3/4" diameter as illustrated................$19.95 E20-T75l. 6.5 mm Italian military ammo with free 6-shot clip. l08 rds..................... ...$ 7.50
(2):
Figure 1 From the American Rifleman, February, 1963. This is from the original ad that Oswald ordered his gun from --identified from the coupon Department 358. The coupon itself is in the WC Exhibits as Waldman Exhibit 8.
According to Mr. William J.
Waldman, vice-president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., the firm's advertising program was set up to be able to identify the month and magazine in which a specific advertisement appeared through the department number on the ordering coupon. Waldman identified Department 358 from the "Hidell" coupon as coming from the American Rifleman, February, l963 (3), issue; this Department 358 coupon is in the exhibits...
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LATE ISSUE! 6.5 ITALIAN CARBINE. ONLY 36"" OVERALL, WEIGHS ONLY 5 1/2 LBS. SHOWS ONLY SLIGHT USE, LIGHTLY OILED, TEST FIRED AND HEAD-SPACED, READY FOR SHOOTING. TURNED DOWN BOLT, THUMB SAFETY, 6- SHOT CLIP-FED. REAR OPEN SIGHT. FAST LOADING AND FAST FIRING.
C20-Tll96. Specially Priced.........$12.88
C20-T750. Carbine with Brand New Good Quality 4X Scope--3/4" diameter as illustrated................$19.95 E20-T75l. 6.5 mm Italian military ammo with free 6-shot clip. l08 rds..................... ...$ 7.50
(2):
Figure 1 From the American Rifleman, February, 1963. This is from the original ad that Oswald ordered his gun from --identified from the coupon Department 358. The coupon itself is in the WC Exhibits as Waldman Exhibit 8.
According to Mr. William J.
Waldman, vice-president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., the firm's advertising program was set up to be able to identify the month and magazine in which a specific advertisement appeared through the department number on the ordering coupon. Waldman identified Department 358 from the "Hidell" coupon as coming from the American Rifleman, February, l963 (3), issue; this Department 358 coupon is in the exhibits...
Thank you for the correction.... I looked at the November 63 issue of Guns & Ammo ( dept # 472 )
Which incidentally is the same ad that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, took to the DPD and said it was the ad from which Lee had ordered the rifle.
Question... How did PO inspector Holmes know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?
Holmes was wrong about that exact order blank...but he knew that that Lee Oswald was a "communist" because he was receiving "communist literature" and he had received a rifle at the PO box.
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Thank you for the correction.... I looked at the August 63 issue of Guns & Ammo ( dept # 472 )
Which incidentally is the same ad that Postal Inspector took to the DPD and said it was the ad from which Lee Had ordered the rifle. Question... How did PO inspector Holmes know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?
Holmes was wrong about that exact order blank...but he knew that that Lee Oswald was a "communist" because he was receiving "communist literature" and he had received a rifle at the PO box.
How did PO inspector Holmes know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?
What makes you believe that Holmes knew before the FBI knew?
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Thanks for info, Never know when you might need an old MC rifle to drop at the scene where you used your high precision quality semi auto rifle to fire 3 shots in about 4.8 secs and the last 2 shots fired almost simultaneously to make sure to get the head shot.
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How did PO inspector Holmes know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?
What makes you believe that Holmes knew before the FBI knew?
I can't remember.... But I believe that Holmes tore a page out of the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo, (dept 472) and took that page to Capt Fritz early Saturday morning. Holmes said that he had discovered the ad and wanted to tell the investigators where the arch villain Lee Harrvey Osssssald ( booooo Hisss) had bought the rifle.
I believe that is BS!..... Holmes definitely was watching Lee Oswald's PO box ( at the request of the FBI) and he knew exactly where that rifle had came from. If we were to know the truth...We might find that it was Harry Holmes who told the FBI where to look to find evidence that the stinkin little murderin commie had got the rifle.
When Gary Savage wrote "1st Day Evidence " he presented copies of the photos and documents that the DPD had at the time they were working the case. On page 248 / 249 Savage presents the page that Harry Holme tore out of the Guns and Ammo magazine .... Both the Carcano and the snub noe .38 pistol are circled in that Klein add.
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I can't remember.... But I believe that Holmes tore a page out of the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo, (dept 472) and took that page to Capt Fritz early Saturday morning. Holmes said that he had discovered the ad and wanted to tell the investigators where the arch villain Lee Harrvey Osssssald ( booooo Hisss) had bought the rifle.
I believe that is BS!..... Holmes definitely was watching Lee Oswald's PO box ( at the request of the FBI) and he knew exactly where that rifle had came from. If we were to know the truth...We might find that it was Harry Holmes who told the FBI where to look to find evidence that the stinkin little murderin commie had got the rifle.
When Gary Savage wrote "1st Day Evidence " he presented copies of the photos and documents that the DPD had at the time they were working the case. On page 248 / 249 Savage presents the page that Harry Holme tore out of the Guns and Ammo magazine .... Both the Carcano and the snub noe .38 pistol are circled in that Klein add.
I’m going by memory, so I could be off by a bit. But Carl Day rode back to his office with an FBI agent on 11/22/63 when he took the rifle to the evidence room. And the FBI agent obtained the serial number, etc. during the trip. So, by mid-afternoon the FBI was able to start tracking down where the rifle came from. There was only one gun shop in Dallas that had sold that make of rifle. The serial number didn’t match any that they had sold. However, the FBI did obtain the name and address of the importer. The importer traced the serial number as being sold to Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago. And by about 10:15 pm or so on 11/22/63 the FBI had Klein's employees looking for information regarding who they sold it to.
If Holmes took his advertisement to DPD on Saturday morning, it appears that it was of little or no benefit to the FBI.
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I’m going by memory, so I could be off by a bit. But Carl Day rode back to his office with an FBI agent on 11/22/63 when he took the rifle to the evidence room. And the FBI agent obtained the serial number, etc. during the trip. So, by mid-afternoon the FBI was able to start tracking down where the rifle came from. There was only one gun shop in Dallas that had sold that make of rifle. The serial number didn’t match any that they had sold. However, the FBI did obtain the name and address of the importer. The importer traced the serial number as being sold to Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago. And by about 10:15 pm or so on 11/22/63 the FBI had Klein's employees looking for information regarding who they sold it to.
If Holmes took his advertisement to DPD on Saturday morning, it appears that it was of little or no benefit to the FBI.
I know the official story ... and I also know that the case is rife with lies by the authorities....
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I know the official story ... and I also know that the case is rife with lies by the authorities....
Just recently ( from Hosty's book) I learned that it was FBI agent Warren De Brueys who was the source who provided Hoover with the name Hidell....and that was key to finding the documents at Kleins in Chicago.
From page 47 of Hosty's, Assignment: Oswald ---- Quote.." De Brueys not only figured out that Oswald was the only member of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee's branch in New Orleans. but concluded that Lee was using the alias A.J.Hidell ..... DeBruey's deduction of Lee's alias of A.J. Hidell made a trace of the rifle hat killed the president possible"...unquote
Amazing!... simply f---ing... amazin !
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Just recently ( from Hosty's book) I learned that it was FBI agent Warren De Brueys who was the source who provided Hoover with the name Hidell....and that was key to finding the documents at Kleins in Chicago.
From page 47 of Hosty's, Assignment: Oswald ---- Quote.." De Brueys not only figured out that Oswald was the only member of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee's branch in New Orleans. but concluded that Lee was using the alias A.J.Hidell ..... DeBruey's deduction of Lee's alias of A.J. Hidell made a trace of the rifle hat killed the president possible"...unquote
Amazing!... simply f---ing... amazin !
The serial number of the rifle and the post office box number address also played a part...
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I can't remember.... But I believe that Holmes tore a page out of the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo, (dept 472) and took that page to Capt Fritz early Saturday morning. Holmes said that he had discovered the ad and wanted to tell the investigators where the arch villain Lee Harrvey Osssssald ( booooo Hisss) had bought the rifle.
I believe that is BS!..... Holmes definitely was watching Lee Oswald's PO box ( at the request of the FBI) and he knew exactly where that rifle had came from. If we were to know the truth...We might find that it was Harry Holmes who told the FBI where to look to find evidence that the stinkin little murderin commie had got the rifle.
When Gary Savage wrote "1st Day Evidence " he presented copies of the photos and documents that the DPD had at the time they were working the case. On page 248 / 249 Savage presents the page that Harry Holme tore out of the Guns and Ammo magazine .... Both the Carcano and the snub noe .38 pistol are circled in that Klein add.
No great mystery. Holmes knows the model of rifle used. He says to himself "maybe our suspect ordered his rifle via mail." The logical place to check is a gun magazine and he comes across an ad for that rifle. A pretty logical thing for him to do. That doesn't mean he had any advance knowledge that Oswald had ordered his rifle from Klein's as you suggest.
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No great mystery. Holmes knows the model of rifle used. He says to himself "maybe our suspect ordered his rifle via mail." The logical place to check is a gun magazine and he comes across an ad for that rifle. A pretty logical thing for him to do. That doesn't mean he had any advance knowledge that Oswald had ordered his rifle from Klein's as you suggest.
Oh, I know that I can't prove that Holmes knew that the holder of PO Box 2915 had received a rifle from Klein's way back in March of 63. But Holmes admitted that he was watching the mail being received at PO box 2915, so he certainly knew that a rifle had been sent to that PO Box.
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Oh, I know that I can't prove that Holmes knew that the holder of PO Box 2915 had received a rifle from Klein's way back in March of 63. But Holmes admitted that he was watching the mail being received at PO box 2915, so he certainly knew that a rifle had been sent to that PO Box.
He admitted he was watching Oswald's mail?
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He admitted he was watching Oswald's mail?
Yes..... And since we know that Hoover suspected the Oswald's were soviet spies it's understandable that he would have had them under surveillance .... and watching their mail would have been at the top. You may recall that Hoover ( not in person) was opening and reading the mail going to the soviet embassy.
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The serial number of the rifle and the post office box number address also played a part...
Very well...But..... 1st they needed a name to provide a first step.....And Warren de Bruey's furnished the name AJ Hidell....
WHERE did De Bruey's come up with that name?
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Very well...But..... 1st they needed a name to provide a first step.....And Warren de Bruey's furnished the name AJ Hidell....
WHERE did De Bruey's come up with that name?
I don’t agree with the logic of the quote from Hosty’s book that: “...DeBruey's deduction of Lee's alias of A.J. Hidell made a trace of the rifle hat killed the president possible" They had the serial number of the rifle (from the rifle itself) and they needed to find out who Kleins Sporting Goods sold it to. Searching Kleins’ records for that serial number wasn’t impossible without the name “Hidell”. Also, DPD and the FBI already had the name Hidell from the identification card in LHO’s wallet. So, how do you figure that Hosty thinks that deBrueys’ deduction “made the trace possible”????
And as far as how deBrueys came up with the name, LHO used that name on some of his literature in New Orleans, he was arrested in New Orleans and possibly had the Hidell identification card on him at that time. (A look at the arrest records and the FBI files might indicate if the authorities took note of this alias at that time.) Regardless, I don’t understand why Hosty thought it was the key to the search at Kleins Sporting Goods.
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Yes..... And since we know that Hoover suspected the Oswald's were soviet spies it's understandable that he would have had them under surveillance .... and watching their mail would have been at the top. You may recall that Hoover ( not in person) was opening and reading the mail going to the soviet embassy.
Can you direct us to this admission?
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I don’t agree with the logic of the quote from Hosty’s book that: “...DeBruey's deduction of Lee's alias of A.J. Hidell made a trace of the rifle hat killed the president possible" They had the serial number of the rifle (from the rifle itself) and they needed to find out who Kleins Sporting Goods sold it to. Searching Kleins’ records for that serial number wasn’t impossible without the name “Hidell”. Also, DPD and the FBI already had the name Hidell from the identification card in LHO’s wallet. So, how do you figure that Hosty thinks that deBrueys’ deduction “made the trace possible”????
And as far as how deBrueys came up with the name, LHO used that name on some of his literature in New Orleans, he was arrested in New Orleans and possibly had the Hidell identification card on him at that time. (A look at the arrest records and the FBI files might indicate if the authorities took note of this alias at that time.) Regardless, I don’t understand why Hosty thought it was the key to the search at Kleins Sporting Goods.
Charles: The New Orleans police detective who interviewed Oswald after his arrest said Oswald had these documents on him:
1. Social Security Card bearing #433-54-3937 in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD.
"2. Selective Service draft card in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD bearing #41-114-395-32, classification---4A. (I do not know what draft board was registered with.)
"3. Card bearing name LEE HARVEY OSWALD reflecting he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; address listed as 799 Broadway, New York 3, New York; telephone #ORegon 4-8295, headquarters for Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Card was signed by V. T. LEE, Executive Secretary; card issued 5/28/63.
"4. Card for the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD signed by A. J. HIDELL, Chapter President, issued June 6, 1963.
Interesting that Oswald had a Selective Service card in his name. The # on it was different than the Selective Service card with the Hidell name on it.
Link here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/martell1.htm
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Charles: The New Orleans police detective who interviewed Oswald after his arrest said Oswald had these documents on him:
1. Social Security Card bearing #433-54-3937 in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD.
"2. Selective Service draft card in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD bearing #41-114-395-32, classification---4A. (I do not know what draft board was registered with.)
"3. Card bearing name LEE HARVEY OSWALD reflecting he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; address listed as 799 Broadway, New York 3, New York; telephone #ORegon 4-8295, headquarters for Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Card was signed by V. T. LEE, Executive Secretary; card issued 5/28/63.
"4. Card for the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD signed by A. J. HIDELL, Chapter President, issued June 6, 1963.
Interesting that Oswald had a Selective Service card in his name. The # on it was different than the Selective Service card with the Hidell name on it.
Link here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/martell1.htm
Thanks Steve, that explains a lot. That he apparently didn’t have the Hidell identification card with him is a possible indicator that he intentionally wanted to get arrested that day. And it seems to me that the name Hidell on the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee would have been of interest to the detective and the FBI. They might have even tried to find out more about “him”. And deBrueys might have remembered that name due to that hypothetical scenario.
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Thanks Steve, that explains a lot. That he apparently didn’t have the Hidell identification card with him is a possible indicator that he intentionally wanted to get arrested that day. And it seems to me that the name Hidell on the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee would have been of interest to the detective and the FBI. They might have even tried to find out more about “him”. And deBrueys might have remembered that name due to that hypothetical scenario.
a possible indicator that he intentionally wanted to get arrested that day.
I don't believe that Lee intended to get arrested, but he definitely wanted publicity... He wanted the news media to cover his pro Castro activities... He knew that Castros spies would be watching and and take note of his activities. And that's was his primary motive for staging the " fight" with the anti Castro Cuban exiles .
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a possible indicator that he intentionally wanted to get arrested that day.
I don't believe that Lee intended to get arrested, but he definitely wanted publicity... He wanted the news media to cover his pro Castro activities... He knew that Castros spies would be watching and and take note of his activities. And that's was his primary motive for staging the " fight" with the anti Castro Cuban exiles .
You may be right, it is a stretch to assume that he intended to get arrested. But the absence of the Hidell Identification card might indicate that he believed that there was a good chance that he might be arrested.
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You may be right, it is a stretch to assume that he intended to get arrested. But the absence of the Hidell Identification card might indicate that he believed that there was a good chance that he might be arrested.
After Lee was arrested and in the N.O. calaboose, he requested that the FBI be contacted, because he wanted to talk to FBI agent Warren DeBruey's. Now what kinda commie would want to talk to the FBI???
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Thanks Steve, that explains a lot. That he apparently didn’t have the Hidell identification card with him is a possible indicator that he intentionally wanted to get arrested that day.
It's also a possible indicator that no such card existed at the time. After all, why would he want to have such a card on him on the day of the assassination either?
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It's also a possible indicator that no such card existed at the time. After all, why would he want to have such a card on him on the day of the assassination either?
The so called "selective service" card with the name Alek James Hidell is no selective service card....and it isn't even close to being a good copy of a genuine draft card. Lee would have known that it was a federal crime to create a forgery or alter a real draft card. Therefore when he created the Hidell card he was very careful that the card didn't even resemble a real draft card.
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In which the absurd claim is made once again that the evidence of Oswald's guilt is so overwhelming that we must conclude he is innocent. Why would Oswald retain his Hidell ID that links him to the rifle? LOL. Maybe he was an idiot. Lots of criminals do dumb things that result in their arrest and conviction. Should they all be released because the evidence of their guilt is clear? HA HA HA. That's Alice-in-Wonderland logic. Maybe Oswald had no idea what type of records Klein's retained of his purchase? And, therefore, he had no good reason to get rid of a fake ID that might do him some good on the run. The card is also not the only means to link him to this alias. He listed Hidell on the form for his New Orleans PO Box. So as a evidentiary matter, even if Oswald gets rid of the Hidell SS card, he is still linked to the alias used to purchase the rifle. The rifle that was mailed to his PO Box and ends up at his place of employment with his prints on that rifle. It's a slam dunk of guilt. Even with the invention of the contrarian time machine, it would be difficult to figure out how there could be much more evidence to link Oswald to this crime.
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The so called "selective service" card with the name Alek James Hidell is no selective service card....and it isn't even close to being a good copy of a genuine draft card. Lee would have known that it was a federal crime to create a forgery or alter a real draft card. Therefore when he created the Hidell card he was very careful that the card didn't even resemble a real draft card.
Making a bad forgery is a defense to forgery? Keep them coming Walt.
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Making a bad forgery is a defense to forgery? Keep them coming Walt.
There was no forgery.....
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There was no forgery.....
Then what does this mean: "Therefore when he created the Hidell card he was very careful that the card didn't even resemble a real draft card."
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In which the absurd claim is made once again that the evidence of Oswald's guilt is so overwhelming that we must conclude he is innocent.
What's absurd is "Richard Smith" has unleashed yet another strawman.
Why would Oswald retain his Hidell ID that links him to the rifle? LOL. Maybe he was an idiot. Lots of criminals do dumb things that result in their arrest and conviction.
And why would Oswald conceal a rifle in a homemade bag that he somehow constructed at work in advance and smuggled home from work without anybody noticing? Because he was clever enough to cover his tracks. Whatever it takes.
So as a evidentiary matter, even if Oswald gets rid of the Hidell SS card, he is still linked to the alias used to purchase the rifle.
Linked how? Oh yeah: unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon from microfilm that is "missing".
The rifle that was mailed to his PO Box
Which you still have yet to provide any evidence of.
and ends up at his place of employment with his prints on that rifle.
No matter how many times you keep bleating "his prints on that rifle", that doesn't make it true. The truth is that there were prints near the trigger guard area that were insufficient for identification purposes, and a single partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card. This is why you are known as Lying "Richard".
It's a slam dunk of guilt.
So you keep claiming.
Even with the invention of the contrarian time machine, it would be difficult to figure out how there could be much more evidence to link Oswald to this crime.
It doesn't take any imagination at all to think up much better possible evidence. Too bad you don't have some.
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Then what does this mean: "Therefore when he created the Hidell card he was very careful that the card didn't even resemble a real draft card."
Walt probably disagrees, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Lee Oswald made the Hidell selective service card.
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Walt probably disagrees, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Lee Oswald made the Hidell selective service card.
Yes, I do believe that Lee created the silly rendition of a draft card.....
I don't know WHY... But possibly he might have thought that he might need to show some ID that he was AJ Hidell, of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee, before he'd be allowed to pick up any mail from the FPFCC headquarters in NY.
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Yes, I do believe that Lee created the silly rendition of a draft card.....
I don't know WHY... But possibly he might have thought that he might need to show some ID that he was AJ Hidell, of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee, before he'd be allowed to pick up any mail from the FPFCC headquarters in NY.
I'm still not following your logic that Oswald intentionally made a bad forgery of the card.
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I'm still not following your logic that Oswald intentionally made a bad forgery of the card.
Simple.... Lee had used the name AJ Hidell as the president of the New Orleans chapter of the FPFCC ....
New York headquarters would very likely have wanted to know who they were dealing with in New Orleans....( A highly unlikely place to establish a FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE ) Thus they probably would send any material by registered mail...and that would require an Identification and a signature at the PO. Lee created that silly rendition of a "draft card" to identify himself as AJ Hidell.
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Simple.... Lee had used the name AJ Hidell as the president of the New Orleans chapter of the FPFCC ....
Just because the FPCC card had "AJ Hidell" on it doesn't mean that Lee was using that as a name for himself and it didn't refer to somebody else.
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Simple.... Lee had used the name AJ Hidell as the president of the New Orleans chapter of the FPFCC ....
New York headquarters would very likely have wanted to know who they were dealing with in New Orleans....( A highly unlikely place to establish a FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE ) Thus they probably would send any material by registered mail...and that would require an Identification and a signature at the PO. Lee created that silly rendition of a "draft card" to identify himself as AJ Hidell.
Are you suggesting then that Lee made this ID card in New Orleans?
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Simple.... Lee had used the name AJ Hidell as the president of the New Orleans chapter of the FPFCC ....
New York headquarters would very likely have wanted to know who they were dealing with in New Orleans....( A highly unlikely place to establish a FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE ) Thus they probably would send any material by registered mail...and that would require an Identification and a signature at the PO. Lee created that silly rendition of a "draft card" to identify himself as AJ Hidell.
I'm not asking what you think he used it for. I'm asking why you indicated that Oswald created a fake ID card not to look like the real thing. Typically, if someone is going to make a fake ID, they want it to look as authentic as possible. That is the whole point. Why would anyone create a fake ID to intentionally not make it look like the real thing and risk being caught for that reason?
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Are you suggesting then that Lee made this ID card in New Orleans?
That's one possibility.... However he might have made it when he needed ID to pick up rifle at the P.O.
And Yes I do believe he ordered the rifle....Although since he didn't have the funds to purchase the rifle. I believe that De M bought the postal MO and sent the order off to Kleins.
I have no problem accepting that Le filled out the order form and the rifle was sent to his PO box....Big Deal... There was no plot to murder JFK at that time.... Lee and DeM ordered the rifle to use as a throw down gun at the Walker residence....And in fact it was used as a throw down gun ...but the cops never even looked for a weapon ....Because they smelled a publicity stunt being perpetrated but since Walker was a high profile citizen in Dallas they felt they had to act as though they were investigating the shooting.
I believe that it was the Walker hoax that set the stage for Lee to become the patsy in the coup d e'tat.
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I'm not asking what you think he used it for. I'm asking why you indicated that Oswald created a fake ID card not to look like the real thing. Typically, if someone is going to make a fake ID, they want it to look as authentic as possible. That is the whole point. Why would anyone create a fake ID to intentionally not make it look like the real thing and risk being caught for that reason?
Typically, if someone is going to make a fake ID, they want it to look as authentic as possible.
For you information Mr "Smith" .... Many of the investigators refer to that silly rendition as a "Selective Service Card....Clearly that card fooled many who should have known that it was not even close to an actual draft card. Anybody who has ever carried a Draft card knows that a draft card does NOT have a photo on it. Lee wanted that photo on that card so the viewer ( like a postal clerk) would know instantly that the bearer was in fact Alek James Hidell.
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That's one possibility.... However he might have made it when he needed ID to pick up rifle at the P.O.
Too bad there isn’t any evidence that Oswald (or anyone else) ever picked up any rifle at any P.O.
And Yes I do believe he ordered the rifle....Although since he didn't have the funds to purchase the rifle. I believe that De M bought the postal MO and sent the order off to Kleins.
I have no problem accepting that Le filled out the order form and the rifle was sent to his PO box....Big Deal... There was no plot to murder JFK at that time.... Lee and DeM ordered the rifle to use as a throw down gun at the Walker residence....And in fact it was used as a throw down gun ...but the cops never even looked for a weapon ....Because they smelled a publicity stunt being perpetrated but since Walker was a high profile citizen in Dallas they felt they had to act as though they were investigating the shooting.
I believe that it was the Walker hoax that set the stage for Lee to become the patsy in the coup d e'tat.
Cool story, bro!
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Too bad there isn’t any evidence that Oswald (or anyone else) ever picked up any rifle at any P.O.
Cool story, bro!
John, If we could go back in time....I'd bet you a steak dinner that PO Inspector Holmes DID have a record ( probably a photo record) of the person who picked up the Carcano at the PO. There are two people high on my list of the person who picked up the Carcano at the PO. Georgie, or his wife Jeannie...... But that info was dumped when they were working on framing Lee Oswald. It's unrealistic to believe that Hoover wasn't keeping tabs on the Oswald's and when a commie receives a rifle through the mail you can bet that Hoover would have been notified.
I realize that this is speculation...but it's not without evidence ( the fact that Lee couldn't have been at the PO to buy the MO or mail it from a couple of miles away ...Nor did he have the funds to buy that MO.....And there is a small mountain of evidence that Lee and George were talkin about General Walker.... and in a derisive manner....
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Just because the FPCC card had "AJ Hidell" on it doesn't mean that Lee was using that as a name for himself and it didn't refer to somebody else.
John, You know in your heart that Lee wouldn't have had that Hidell if he wasn't using it.... I'd hasten to remind you that intel agents routinely use an alias , ...And Lee was an intel agent. ( Who was he working for....????)
I believe that Lee thought he was working for RFK....and he saw no problem in working for the FBI at the same time.
I also have no problem believing that Lee ordered the Carcano From Kleins...... And he definitely had a carcano in his possession in April of 1963. All of this is negated by the FACT that the Carcano was NOT the murder weapon....and In fact it was not even fired that day. That Carcano was buried beneath boxes of books at the time of the murder.
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John, You know in your heart that Lee wouldn't have had that Hidell if he wasn't using it.... I'd hasten to remind you that intel agents routinely use an alias , ...And Lee was an intel agent. ( Who was he working for....????)
There's no good reason to assume that Hidell on the FPCC leaflets referred to Oswald and not somebody else. Why would he use his real name on some of them if Hidell was his own alias?
I also have no problem believing that Lee ordered the Carcano From Kleins......
That's fine, but handwriting "analysis" is unscientific and biased, even on original documents with large samples.
And he definitely had a carcano in his possession in April of 1963.
You can't determine that merely from the photograph. Besides, there's this:
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.
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Too bad there isn’t any evidence that Oswald (or anyone else) ever picked up any rifle at any P.O. Cool story, bro!
Entire threads devoted to that and still there is no evidence of such.
You know in your heart that Lee wouldn't have had that Hidell [card] if he wasn't using it
No one ever reported that he had used this card as ID or anything else.
As far as ID goes... how acceptable would it have been?
Most of the card isn't even filled out and what is.... is all but obliterated.
I have read that the photo is Oswald in the USSR. No proof of that either.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/40/a7/63/40a7632c5cece298245105c7ac0c3dab.jpg)
Note how "Hidell" is mis-spelled here----
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/smallpox-vaccination-card-dated-june-8-1963-lee-oswald-and-aj-hidell-picture-id576878050?s=594x594)
I believe that the Hidell identity was invented in New Orleans and Guy Banister may have been involved.
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I also have no problem believing that Lee ordered the Carcano From Kleins...... And he definitely had a carcano in his possession in April of 1963.
No one has ever explained how that rifle got to New Orleans and then how it got back to Irving with no one ever seeing it [according to testimony] If Mrs Paine had stated that she had loaded it up on the bus to New Orleans and had brought it back in a blanket...it would have clinched it with me. However.............. All of this is negated by the FACT that the Carcano was NOT the murder weapon....and In fact it was not even fired that day. That Carcano was buried beneath boxes of books at the time of the murder.
I concur .....Raises a question...Why would Oswald buy a rifle or pistol anyway? It was never conclusively shown that he had ever fired any gun after coming back to Texas with Marina and child.
It has been stated on this forum many times that the De Mohrenschildts saw Oswald's rifle...That Mr De M asked Oswald about shooting Walker.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.
Now...OK Jeanne DeM told counsel about a rifle that she said she saw in the closet.... but her story stunk.
Why would Marina be showing Jeanne the house and then show her the closet [with a rifle in sight yet]?
Women don't do that. They show the kitchen, the dining room, the bedroom, the baby crib, but the closet? Nah closets stink.
And this supposed rifle isn't concealed in any way what-so-ever no blanket or anything?
And I have asked many times...where was the ammo and gun cleaning supplies?
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To address the topic...Should someone happen to buy a case of these Carcano rifles? I would gladly like to purchase one.
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No one has ever explained how that rifle got to New Orleans and then how it got back to Irving with no one ever seeing it [according to testimony] If Mrs Paine had stated that she had loaded it up on the bus to New Orleans and had brought it back in a blanket...it would have clinched it with me. However.............. I concur .....Raises a question...Why would Oswald buy a rifle or pistol anyway? It was never conclusively shown that he had ever fired any gun after coming back to Texas with Marina and child.
It has been stated on this forum many times that the De Mohrenschildts saw Oswald's rifle...That Mr De M asked Oswald about shooting Walker.
Now...OK Jeanne DeM told counsel about a rifle that she said she saw in the closet.... but her story stunk.
Why would Marina be showing Jeanne the house and then show her the closet [with a rifle in sight yet]?
Women don't do that. They show the kitchen, the dining room, the bedroom, the baby crib, but the closet? Nah closets stink.
And this supposed rifle isn't concealed in any way what-so-ever no blanket or anything?
And I have asked many times...where was the ammo and gun cleaning supplies?
No one has ever explained how that rifle got to New Orleans and then how it got back to Irving with no one ever seeing
There's not a iota of doubt in my mind that the carcano did not go to New Orleans on the bus with Lee.....A sea bag is NOT long enough to hold a carcano. And you're right Jerry, Nobody ever saw a rifle in Lee Oswald's possession after the Walker hoax and the murder of JFK, except Marina. And Marina couldn't identify the carcano as the rifle that she saw in the closet.
The BY photo (CE 133A ) does in fact show a model 91/38 carcano in Lee Oswald's hands....and it possible that it is the same rifle that was buried beneath boxes of books in the TSBD at the time of the shooting.....but all that indicates is that the carcano was not the murder weapon and it indicates that Lee was being set up as the patsy.
I suspect that De M actually owned the carcano because he had provided the money to purchase it .... And after the flop of the Walker hoax and the police failed to find the throw down gun that Lee had left near the scene De M was desperate to get that rifle back...and he told Lee to get his butt out to the site where he had left the carcano and bring it back to him. I believe that Lee did in fact return the carcano to George De M. ( in the middle of the night on April 13) I believe that De M took the carcano that night and put it in storage along with other personal property before he hightailed it out of Dallas and went back to Langley Va. to be debriefed before his next assignment.
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There's no good reason to assume that Hidell on the FPCC leaflets referred to Oswald and not somebody else. Why would he use his real name on some of them if Hidell was his own alias?
That's fine, but handwriting "analysis" is unscientific and biased, even on original documents with large samples.
You can't determine that merely from the photograph. Besides, there's this:
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.
Are you aware of the reason that Lee wanted to talk to the FBI after his arrest in New Orleans?.
Guy Bannister had gave Lee some some booklets that he had in his office..... Lee's mission when he went to NO was to find out who was supplying the arms and training for the Cuban exiles who were attacking Cuba. Lee had gathered enough information so he could report what he had found. Lee knew that Bannister was the leader of the New Orleans band of renegades. Something that Bannister had stamped inside the back cover of the booklet revealed that the operation was being run out of 544 Camp street ( Bannister's office) Lee kept one of the booklets that Bannister had gave him and he showed that booklet with Bannister's address stamped inside to the FBI agent who showed up at the NO jail. BIG MISTAKE!.... FBI agent Warren De Brueys and Guy Bannister were close friends so Bannister learned immediately that Lee Oswald was a spy and a snitch.
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The BY photo (CE 133A ) does in fact show a model 91/38 carcano in Lee Oswald's hands....
There isn't enough detail in the existing photo to identify this so specifically.
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Are you aware of the reason that Lee wanted to talk to the FBI after his arrest in New Orleans?.
No, but the fact that he did want to talk to the FBI is very unusual.
Guy Bannister had gave Lee some some booklets that he had in his office..... Lee's mission when he went to NO was to find out who was supplying the arms and training for the Cuban exiles who were attacking Cuba. Lee had gathered enough information so he could report what he had found. Lee knew that Bannister was the leader of the New Orleans band of renegades. Something that Bannister had stamped inside the back cover of the booklet revealed that the operation was being run out of 544 Camp street ( Bannister's office) Lee kept one of the booklets that Bannister had gave him and he showed that booklet with Bannister's address stamped inside to the FBI agent who showed up at the NO jail. BIG MISTAKE!.... FBI agent Warren De Brueys and Guy Bannister were close friends so Bannister learned immediately that Lee Oswald was a spy and a snitch.
Cool story, bro. Did you make that up yourself?
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To address the topic...Should someone happen to buy a case of these Carcano rifles? I would gladly like to purchase one.
Jerry, I believe that you are a member who would benefit greatly from owning a carcano... Send me a PM.
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To address the topic...Should someone happen to buy a case of these Carcano rifles? I would gladly like to purchase one.
Jerry, you can purchase one from Palmetto State Armory:
* https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html (https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html)
They are apparently still on sale for $120.00 off the normal price. This is the reason that I posted the link to the webpage in the original post. Please let us know if you get one.
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Jerry, you can purchase one from Palmetto State Armory:
* https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html (https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html)
They are apparently still on sale for $120.00 off the normal price. This is the reason that I posted the link to the webpage in the original post. Please let us know if you get one.
They've been in storage for 50 years..... Very interesting.... Back in the early sixties the CIA had acquired boat loads of carcanos ( they probably were captured Italian army rifles that had been in storage in italy since 1943) *
They issued them to the Cuban exiles who they were training to invade Cuba ( there are films that show the cubans in Florida training with carcanos. ) After JFK ordered the training halted they probably stored the carcanos, and now someone has found the stored rifles and is offering them for sale.
* General Walker commanded troops in Italy at the time Italy surrendered ...He would have been in position to know where the captured carcanos were stored.
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Jerry, you can purchase one from Palmetto State Armory:
After seeing some of the pictures I think I'll pass.
(https://wac.edgecastcdn.net/001A39/prod/media/fn7upu9h3FoXXgPsite/4332bb5b76e94c61fcb37c91bffde78e_1612037888394_0_L1800.jpeg)
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They've been in storage for 50 years..... Very interesting.... Back in the early sixties the CIA had acquired boat loads of carcanos ( they probably were captured Italian army rifles that had been in storage in italy since 1943) *
They issued them to the Cuban exiles who they were training to invade Cuba ( there are films that show the cubans in Florida training with carcanos. ) After JFK ordered the training halted they probably stored the carcanos, and now someone has found the stored rifles and is offering them for sale.
* General Walker commanded troops in Italy at the time Italy surrendered ...He would have been in position to know where the captured carcanos were stored.
These have been stored in Ethiopia according to the Palmetto State Armory website. I would assume that they were originally purchased by Ethiopia for its military from Italy. It seems like I might have read that somewhere. But my memory could be off.
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After seeing some of the pictures I think I'll pass.
(https://wac.edgecastcdn.net/001A39/prod/media/fn7upu9h3FoXXgPsite/4332bb5b76e94c61fcb37c91bffde78e_1612037888394_0_L1800.jpeg)
I understand completely.
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These have been stored in Ethiopia according to the Palmetto State Armory website. I would assume that they were originally purchased by Ethiopia for its military from Italy. It seems like I might have read that somewhere. But my memory could be off.
I'm not interested in buying one...but if any reader does buy one of the carcanos... I'd be very interested to know if the rifle is stamped "Made in Italy"
PS... The rifles the CIA gave to the Cuban exiles were stamped made in Italy (IN ENGLISH) In a stupi and poorly thougt out attempt to give the CIA deniability when a CIA trained Cuban exile was found to be carrying a rifle with the country of origin stamped on in ENGLISH .... If the arrogant drunks at the CIA who were training the exiles been sober they may have realized that the stamping should not have ben in English.....The stamp should have read " Fabbriica D' Armre Gardon Vt " Or something similar . The CIA were seeking deniability as the provider of the weapons......
The TSBD carcano was one of the rifles that the CIA had ordered to be stamped "Made in Italy" before they were imported. After the BOP fiasco the CIA had a large quantity of Carcanos that they had to get rid of so they offered them to sporting goods dealers at bargain prices.
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Here is the question (and four answers, from the Palmetto State Armory webpage) that always seems to be a point of contention with the JFK assassination crowd:
Has anyone shot one of these?
WillT Sep 3, 2020
Answer
Yes. It shot well and grouped the shots in a tight radius.
Steve W. Sep 15, 2020 purchased Aug 8, 2020
Yes. They shoot ok. None of mine are tack drivers though
zx9rt1 Sep 20, 2020
Yes, I also included photos of brass
josh c. Sep 12, 2020 purchased Aug 15, 2020
Yes they are a lot of recoil
Steven D. Sep 27, 2020 purchased Aug 10, 2020
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Here is the question (and four answers, from the Palmetto State Armory webpage) that always seems to be a point of contention with the JFK assassination crowd:
Has anyone shot one of these?
WillT Sep 3, 2020
Answer
Yes. It shot well and grouped the shots in a tight radius.
Steve W. Sep 15, 2020 purchased Aug 8, 2020
Yes. They shoot ok. None of mine are tack drivers though
zx9rt1 Sep 20, 2020
Yes, I also included photos of brass
josh c. Sep 12, 2020 purchased Aug 15, 2020
Yes they are a lot of recoil
Steven D. Sep 27, 2020 purchased Aug 10, 2020
Question....Did the supplier also offer ammo for the carcano? Where did Steve W., Josh C. and, Steven D get their ammo?
Can any of them be contacted?
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I'd be very interested to know if the rifle is stamped "Made in Italy"
(https://wac.edgecastcdn.net/001A39/prod/media/fn7upu9h3FoXXgPsite/15fc9a72f2ace1815a6d5654a883df74_1603328487632_2_L1800.jpeg)
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Question....Did the supplier also offer ammo for the carcano? Where did Steve W., Josh C. and, Steven D get their ammo?
Can any of them be contacted?
I don’t know. But I saw this question and answer in the question and answer section of the Palmetto State Armory webpage:
what 6.5 ammo works in these rifles
?
norm a. Aug 15, 2020
Answer
6.5 x 52 Carcano. Privi Partizan makes several loads.
steven d. Aug 18, 2020
Here is a link to the Privilege Partizan website:
https://www.prvipartizan.com/rifle_ammo.php (https://www.prvipartizan.com/rifle_ammo.php)
Just click on the search menu menu button and select 6.5 x 52 Carcano from the list. Then click on the search button.
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I don’t know. But I saw this question and answer in the question and answer section of the Palmetto State Armory webpage:
what 6.5 ammo works in these rifles
?
norm a. Aug 15, 2020
Answer
6.5 x 52 Carcano. Privi Partizan makes several loads.
steven d. Aug 18, 2020
Here is a link to the Privilege Partizan website:
https://www.prvipartizan.com/rifle_ammo.php (https://www.prvipartizan.com/rifle_ammo.php)
Just click on the search menu menu button and select 6.5 x 52 Carcano from the list. Then click on the search button.
Oh I don't want to buy any ammo....I just wanted to know if "Palmetto State Armory" has any 6.5 mm carcano ammo that been stored along with the rifles?
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Oh I don't want to buy any ammo....I just wanted to know if "Palmetto State Armory" has any 6.5 mm carcano ammo that been stored along with the rifles?
I don’t believe that they do.
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I don’t believe that they do.
Oh Nuts!..... I had hopes of acquiring some of that CIA ammo that had been manufactured for the Marine Corps. ( the MC didn't have a single carcano that could use that ammo) Which I'm sure you know was the ammo ( the spent shells, and the live round ) that allegedly was fired from the TSBD that day.....
Which raises the question in any thinking person's mind .... Where the hell would Lee Oswald get ammo that was manufactured for the CIA??