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Author Topic: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness  (Read 4908 times)

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2018, 12:07:45 AM »
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Still asserting that the 3 OP witnesses' hearing and vision were not functioning properly?

OK..whatever...like you would know this. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You didn't read what I wrote. Let me quote the essential part: "For [the guys on the overpass], shots from the GK would come from the same direction as the TSBD, and vice versa." Think about it.

And, the HSCA's conclusion of the a shot from the GK is based on the Weiss/Aschkenasi study. Steve Barber's discovery of the Decker crosstalk invalidates the WA conclusion in two ways. First, the Decker transmission happened at least a minute after the assassination, and was a reaction to it. Second, the crosstalk kills a fundamental assumption underlying the WA calculation of the probability that the Ch 1 impulses were shots, and kills the rest of the WA study as well.

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2018, 12:07:45 AM »


Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2018, 02:51:32 AM »
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 Is there some significance if he rode up the knoll or not? Is the proof he did not the Z film? What was blocking Bowers view Your idea that Bowers? lied about what he saw was because he talked to the others crosses the line of speculative entitlement imo

I never said Bowers lied Matt, didn't even suggest it, it's not what I think at all. Witnesses swapping stories with others before giving statements is a very bad thing for us, for factfinding.

No Bowers could not see anyone ride up the knoll on a bike from that tower, I know because I've seen pictures taken from inside it, haven't you? His view is blocked by the fence on it's own even without the foilage, he couldn't even see Hargis with his little run to the grass and back, that view of the entire section of street was blocked by the pergola. The first time he saw the parade was before the shooting even started for two brief seconds, the next as it approached Stemmons, I know this because I've studied the images of the view from inisde the tower.

It wouldn't be in the Zfilm, it came later, Haygood comes in around the 30s mark, approaches the curb directly in the Atkins film soon after and around 10s later still, Couch shows the same cop on his feet a little further down the curb holding his bike up, cop then runs up the knoll on foot,
Did another cop attempt to do the same thing that Haygood failed to? That's what some have speculated in order to explain it but not this chap, there's no evidence for it.

So Bowers could not have known about any bike cop getting off and running anywhere or riding up the knoll unless others talked to him.
Some speculation ends when you have the right image, if you can't find one I'll try and find it for you, IIRC Groden took the best one, a very nice wide shot.

Witnesses sometimes take in what they hear and make it part of their own memories, this is common place and you must know it, it's best avoided and in good policing italways is when possible and the idea is far from contoversial.

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2018, 08:44:23 PM »
One correction. Bowers could see this cop(ignore arrow);

he could ID him as a bike cop from that helmet and work out where he came from all on his own.
What he couldn't know or see is how the cop got there. For that he neded help.
And repeating something that he heard from others, that he partially witnessed himself is not lying.

Now picture the Croft photo on Elm. That's the area that Bowers could see from his tower, the only part of Elm visible to him, or anyone in that same tower.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 11:27:24 PM by Barry Pollard »

Offline Jim Brazell

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2018, 02:02:52 AM »
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I never said Bowers lied Matt, didn't even suggest it, it's not what I think at all. Witnesses swapping stories with others before giving statements is a very bad thing for us, for factfinding.

No Bowers could not see anyone ride up the knoll on a bike from that tower, I know because I've seen pictures taken from inside it, haven't you? His view is blocked by the fence on it's own even without the foilage, he couldn't even see Hargis with his little run to the grass and back, that view of the entire section of street was blocked by the pergola. The first time he saw the parade was before the shooting even started for two brief seconds, the next as it approached Stemmons, I know this because I've studied the images of the view from inisde the tower.

I know Sam Holland's VISION wasn't obstructed and he saw the SMOKE come out from the trees....that's the same smoke that Ralph Yarborough smelled at street level. You've seen the "smoke " picture with the limo still in the picture, right ?

It wouldn't be in the Zfilm, it came later, Haygood comes in around the 30s mark, approaches the curb directly in the Atkins film soon after and around 10s later still, Couch shows the same cop on his feet a little further down the curb holding his bike up, cop then runs up the knoll on foot,
Did another cop attempt to do the same thing that Haygood failed to? That's what some have speculated in order to explain it but not this chap, there's no evidence for it.

So Bowers could not have known about any bike cop getting off and running anywhere or riding up the knoll unless others talked to him.
Some speculation ends when you have the right image, if you can't find one I'll try and find it for you, IIRC Groden took the best one, a very nice wide shot.

Witnesses sometimes take in what they hear and make it part of their own memories, this is common place and you must know it, it's best avoided and in good policing italways is when possible and the idea is far from contoversial.

Offline Jim Brazell

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2018, 02:17:35 AM »

Smoke from Grassy Knoll as described by Railroad workers. Rear of limo in foreground. Same smoke Ralph Yarborough who was very gun savy smelled at "street level"...8:15 mark.

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2018, 02:17:35 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2018, 08:59:37 PM »
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The complicating factor being that, from the TP witness' perspective on the overpass, the SE corner of the TSBD is almost directly in line with the corner of the picket fence, where GK theorists like to put a shooter. For them, shots from the GK would come from the same direction as the TSBD, and vice versa.

What have you been smokin', Mitch?


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2018, 09:01:45 PM »
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Witnesses sometimes take in what they hear and make it part of their own memories, this is common place and you must know it, it's best avoided and in good policing italways is when possible and the idea is far from contoversial.

Yep.  For example, the 10th and Patton witnesses and the cops in the Texas Theater.

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2018, 02:47:44 AM »
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I know Sam Holland's vision wasn't obstructed and he saw smoke... you've seen the smoke picture with the limo... right?

I know Holland moved south in the first minute, I think he wanted to see where Hargis/Weigman were going or what was behind the Stemmons sign that this cop ran toward(from Sam's POV), I'm almost positive that three of his fellow spectators up there were clapping/waving as the limo approached them, completely unaware of what happened up the street and within feet of Holland, I know what he said, pretty much, yes I've seen what others believe is smoke in a couple extreemly poor low rez Wiegman stills but I don't trust it and sorry, I don't trust Holland, I barely know him, but I understand why others want to.

If there was one piece of evidence that showed Holland behind that fence within a couple minutes, you'd have me but having said that, I've seen Brennan within two minutes looking up to the upper floors of the TSBD as he's stood right next to two or more unmovable cops, it changed nothing, I believe he, like Holland, reacted to the immeadiate aftermath and not the shooting itself, Brennan looked up because a whole motorcade car full of press did before him, Holland looked toward the fence because of Hargis, Haygood and the folks that followed him.

Those sounds were ignored by most and that's why Weigman ran right into the kill zone and gets mistaken for IDK, something, by Hargis.
Wiegman ran right in there with no thought for his safety just for some pictures is this what most believe? Completely ignoring the sound of gunfire. WTH was he thinking? Hargis almost shot him, or certaining pulled his piece out because of him, and ran directly toward him, until DW sees this and puts his own face to the concrete.
No, not me, motorcycle backfire, firecrackers, ignored, no one paniced, no one imeadiatly thought "that's gunfire", except one or two raher special individuals who's senses were far more tuned-in than everyone else, right?
Wiegman ran straight toward what?  He had no idea, he wasn't thinking and he certainly wasn't thinking "gunfire".

My opinion, Holland don't see nothing until someone reacts and there's people stood on Elm itself, much closer, who missed the whole thing because there attention just wasn't on the head as it exploded. That's what it took to wake people up, direct incontrovertable evidence, not firecracker sounds which people could think were part of the parade or belonging to the bikes, find the biggest smile in Altgens, that's probably the normal reaction to "gunfire" on that day, I have found no reaction by the public themselves, only from those that saw the FS and the after effects of those reactions.

tldr: No.

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2018, 02:47:44 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2018, 06:16:31 AM »
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What have you been smokin', Mitch?



I and I ain't the ganjamon here, Tosh. Your own graphic proves what I said, namely, "from the TP witness' perspective on the overpass, the SE corner of the TSBD is almost directly in line with the corner of the picket fence, where GK theorists like to put a shooter."

I can't say I've ever seen anyone put a GK shooter very far from the corner of the fence. Have you?

Now, given the real world conditions of Dealey Plaza on Nov 11, 1963, how accurate do you think the TP witnesses audio localization capabilities were at the time, in terms of degrees?   

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2018, 08:50:20 PM »
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I and I ain't the ganjamon here, Tosh. Your own graphic proves what I said, namely, "from the TP witness' perspective on the overpass, the SE corner of the TSBD is almost directly in line with the corner of the picket fence, where GK theorists like to put a shooter."

Define "almost".

Quote
I can't say I've ever seen anyone put a GK shooter very far from the corner of the fence. Have you?

Yes.  But even the corner of the fence is not "almost" directly in line with the SE corner of the TSBD.  And certainly nowhere near the line of fire to the limo at Z313.

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Re: James Leon Simmons.... Overpass Witness
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2018, 08:50:20 PM »