The Truly Magical Bullet

[Mitch Todd]

A couple of points:

1.  The SBT has CE399 striking bone other than nose-first, and it has it striking and shattering a rib at a speed much greater than 1100 fps.

2.  The SBT has CE399 striking the radius butt-first at about 1100 fps to explain the dent in the butt end.

So if there is any meaningful demonstration it should be to have the bullet strike a radius butt-first at 1100 fps and see what both the bullet and radius look like.

the SBT has CE399 striking the rib, but is agnostic about the bullet's particular attitude at impact.  Shaw said that the impact was what he called a "slap wound," where the bullet hit the rib in something like a glancing blow. The rib broke from being compressed inward by the impact. Dr Gregory originated the idea that Connally's wrist wound was caused by a bullet striking tail first. This was based on his observation that the entry wound was too ragged to be a "normal" nose-first affair. He'd been a field surgeon in the Korean War, and knew a bit about bullet wounds. He also had the luxury of not needing to work fast, unlike Shaw or the teams in the ER. Lattimer did a lot of work weighing out something like a couple hundred 6.5mm WCC rounds; he found that they averaged about 1.6gr more than CE399, with a very tight distribution around the mean. He also used a vise to squeeze a few 6.5mm rounds into a shape as close to CE399 as he could manage; this resulted in about 1.5gr of lead being extruded out of the tail of the bullet. Per Gregory's and Lattimer's input, it would seem that the bullet would have hit the radius going backwards, lead-extrusion first, and the impact would shear off the extrusion or otherwise cause it to separate from the bullet proper, which would account for the fragments in the wrist and thigh. And, it would imply that the bulk of the flattening and bending would have occurred in the rib impact.

[Jerry Freeman]

Which really doesn't apply to the question of how many experienced forensic pathologists agree with the SBT vs how many disagree with it. Why change the subject?
Actually, I've never so much as picked up his book. Are you really that presumptuous?

The topic is the Magic Bullet if you didn't notice.
About the other....Bugliosi seemed to buy the SBT, hook, line and sinker and you seem to also so... uhhhh....yeah I presumed. So what?
 
What is this crap about Jackie Stewart?
Someone doesn't stand up and agree so that means that they disagree?
Talk about 'presume'.
Back to square one....
Provide a link where a forensic specialist/scientific/medical professional DISAGREES with Cyril Wecht on the SBT and proves where Dr Wecht is wrong regarding CE 399...or shut up about it.

[Tim Nickerson]

Provide a link where a forensic specialist/scientific/medical professional DISAGREES with Cyril Wecht on the SBT and proves where Dr Wecht is wrong regarding CE 399...or shut up about it.

I already did. You ignored it. Wecht is a nut and is essentially a knownothing when it comes to this stuff.

[Jerry Freeman]

I already did.   Wecht is a nut and is essentially a knownothing when it comes to this stuff.

You're funny. You should change your moniker to Snickerson.
OK so I'm slow. Perhaps you could link to your link.
Should be easy for someone sharp ......like you.

[John Iacoletti]

I already did. You ignored it. Wecht is a nut and is essentially a knownothing when it comes to this stuff.

Any expert who disagrees with the party line is a "nut" by definition as far as LNers are concerned.

But ask them how many firearms experts agreed with Nicol that a slug pulled out of Tippit could be matched to a specific revolver and they all go silent...

[Ray Mitcham]

Any expert who disagrees with the party line is a "nut" by definition as far as LNers are concerned.

But ask them how many firearms experts agreed with Nicol that a slug pulled out of Tippit could be matched to a specific revolver and they all go silent...

Tim?

[Joe Elliott]

The following tables are from Larry Sturdivan?s ?The JFK Myths?:

Abbreviations used mean:
  m/s is meters per second
  f/s is feet per second
  Conn. Is Connally


Page 118

Table II. Approximate Velocities At Which WCC/MC Bullets and Bones Deform

Orientation     Velocity       Velocity       Velocity       Muzzle
Of the          at which       at which       at which       Velocity
Bullet          the bullet     bone will      soft
                will           deform         tissue
                shatter        the            will
                bone           bullet         deform
                                              bullet

Point First     120 m/s        520 m/s        730 m/s        600 m/s
Sideways        135 m/s        425 m/s        610 m/s

Point First     400 f/s        1700 f/s       2400 f/s       2160 f/s
Sideways        450 f/s        1400 f/s       2000 f/s

This table was calculated comparing the theorical ?tissue? drag with the yield strength of the WCC/MC bullet, based on it?s copper alloy shell and lead core. Which these are all theorical calculations, real world tests confirm this table.





Page 144

Table III. Probable Velocity and Orientation of CE 399 at Various Points Along Its Trajectory

Muzzle     At Impact   At Impact   Penetrating   At Impact   At Impact
Velocity   on JFK?s    on Conn.?s  Connally?s    on Conn.?s  on
           Neck        Back        Rib           Wrist       Thigh

660 m/s    615 m/s     500 m/s     440 m/s       150 m/s     40 m/s
+- 10      +- 10       +- 15       through       +- 30       +- 6
                                   244 m/s
                                   +- 30

2160 f/s   2015 f/s    1830 f/s    1450 f/s      500 f/s     135 fps
+- 30      +- 30       +- 100      through       +- 100      +- 20
                                   800   f/s
                                   +- 100

Table III was a rough estimate based on the shooting of goat carcasses. This table differs from Mr. Sturdivan?s estimates presented to the HSCA back in the 1970?s. More extensive experiments have allowed a more accurate table. All values are approximate estimates but based on real world experiments.
The margin of error generally becomes greater and greater at later portions of its flight. This is because the margins of error are additive. If there is a 10 m/s error range in the speed the bullet is going when it reaches the first target, and a 20 m/s error range on the effect of the first target on the velocity, then there will be a 30 m/s error range when it reaches the second target. The exception is the speed of the bullet that barely penetrated Connally?s thigh, since the bullet would have to be going just fast enough to penetrate the skin, but not much faster to prevent it from penetrating deep into the thigh.

A couple of points:

1.  The SBT has CE399 striking bone other than nose-first, and it has it striking and shattering a rib at a speed much greater than 1100 fps.

Larry Sturdivan?s estimate, the best estimate available (I believe) is that CE399 struck the rib at initially at 1450 f/s, just fast enough to deform the bullet. The bullet was travelling sideways at this point. It hit the rib with the back half of the bullet, causing the deformation. That is why the bullet is squeezed some near the base, with little or no deformity of the front half of the bullet.

Had the bullet still been traveling with the pointed end first, as it did through the air, it would have not deformed at all since such a bullet will not deform once the velocity dips below 1700 f/s.

Once the bullet slowed to about 1400 f/s, which still going through the rib, the deformation of the bullet stopped since even a sideways bullet won?t deform below 1400 f/s.

2.  The SBT has CE399 striking the radius butt-first at about 1100 fps to explain the dent in the butt end.

So if there is any meaningful demonstration it should be to have the bullet strike a radius butt-first at 1100 fps and see what both the bullet and radius look like.

The wrist bone deformed the bullet a minimum amount, since it was travelling relatively slowly at that time, 500 f/s.

As the bullet got squeezed near the base of the bullet, some lead oozed out of the base of the bullet, like toothpaste being squeezed from a tube. This exposed soft lead was scraped off of the base of the bullet. Otherwise the wrist bone did not deform the bullet.

The wrist bone, while stronger than the rib bone, failed to further deform the bullet because it?s velocity was so much less striking the wrist bone than the rib bone.