Another disappearing bullet

[Matt Grantham]

I never claimed it was a public statement. It has already been noted that Warren commissions lack of either Tomlinson, or Wright, being able to testify to the authenticity of CE 399 in front of them is not just a neutral position There is the 64 FBI memo claiming ?appears to be the same one? However, the FBI agent who is supposed to have gotten that admission, Bardwell Odum, and the Bureau?s own once-secret records, don?t back up #2011. Those records say only that neither Tomlinson nor Wright was able to identify the bullet in question, a comment that leaves the impression they saw no resemblance

Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.?  [Fig. 11] Unwilling to leave it at that, both authors paid Mr. Odum a visit in his Dallas home on November 21, 2002. The same alert, friendly man on the phone greeted us warmly and led us to a comfortable family room. To ensure no misunderstanding, we laid out before Mr. Odum all the relevant documents and read aloud from them.

Again, Mr. Odum said that he had never had any bullet related to the Kennedy assassination in his possession, whether during the FBI?s investigation in 1964 or at any other time. Asked whether he might have forgotten the episode, Mr. Odum remarked that he doubted he would have ever forgotten investigating so important a piece of evidence. But even if he had done the work, and later forgotten about it, he said he would certainly have turned in a ?302? report covering something that important


 In regard to the two Secret Service agents who were the other two individuals in the chain of custody


A declassified record, however, offers some corroboration for what CE 2011 reported about Secret Service Agents Johnsen and Rowley. A memo from the FBI?s Dallas field office dated 6/24/64 reported that, ?ON JUNE TWENTYFOUR INSTANT RICHARD E. JOHNSEN, AND JAMES ROWLEY, CHIEF ? ADVISED SA ELMER LEE TODD, WFO, THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO INDENTIFY RIFLE BULLET C ONE

 Hearsay is generally a term reserved for a courtroom I see no reason to call FBI reports little more than hearsay as well, but in this case there is evidence for wholesale fabrication on the part of the FBI as opposed to the research of Thompson It seems pretty likely that Wright was aware of the story by Josiah Thompson and one would assume would have protested if he had been misquoted

 I am all for people being under oath, recorded or any manner of verifying statements But when there is a lack of any evidence to support a claim, simple interviews do have significance

[Martin Weidmann]

I never claimed it was a public statement. It has already been noted that Warren commissions lack of either Tomlinson, or Wright, being to testify to authenticity in front of them is not just a neutral position There is the 64 FBI memo claiming ?appears to be the same one? However, the FBI agent who is supposed to have gotten that admission, Bardwell Odum, and the Bureau?s own once-secret records, don?t back up #2011. Those records say only that neither Tomlinson nor Wright was able to identify the bullet in question, a comment that leaves the impression they saw no resemblance

Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.?  [Fig. 11] Unwilling to leave it at that, both authors paid Mr. Odum a visit in his Dallas home on November 21, 2002. The same alert, friendly man on the phone greeted us warmly and led us to a comfortable family room. To ensure no misunderstanding, we laid out before Mr. Odum all the relevant documents and read aloud from them.

Again, Mr. Odum said that he had never had any bullet related to the Kennedy assassination in his possession, whether during the FBI?s investigation in 1964 or at any other time. Asked whether he might have forgotten the episode, Mr. Odum remarked that he doubted he would have ever forgotten investigating so important a piece of evidence. But even if he had done the work, and later forgotten about it, he said he would certainly have turned in a ?302? report covering something that important


 In regard to the two Secret Service agents who were the other two individuals in the chain of custody


A declassified record, however, offers some corroboration for what CE 2011 reported about Secret Service Agents Johnsen and Rowley. A memo from the FBI?s Dallas field office dated 6/24/64 reported that, ?ON JUNE TWENTYFOUR INSTANT RICHARD E. JOHNSEN, AND JAMES ROWLEY, CHIEF ? ADVISED SA ELMER LEE TODD, WFO, THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO INDENTIFY RIFLE BULLET C ONE

 Hearsay is generally a term reserved for a courtroom I see no reason to call FBI reports little more than hearsay as well, but in this case there is evidence for wholesale fabrication on the part of the FBI as opposed to the research of Thompson It seems pretty likely that Wright was aware of the story by Josiah Thompson and one would assume would have protested if he had been misquoted

 I am all for people being under oath, recorded or any manner of verifying statements But when there is a lack of any evidence to support a claim, simple interviews do have significance

Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.? 


Odum is supposed to have shown CE 399 to Tomlinson and Wright in mid-1964. However, Tomlinson is on record twice as saying that he was only shown a bullet once, and that was by SAC Shanklin one week after the assassination. So, unless Tomlinson and Odum both misremembered about the same event, there simply is no proof that Odum did in fact show a bullet to Tomlinson at any time.

Remarkably, no record seems to have survived about Shanklin showing a bullet to Tomlinson and Wright.

[Matt Grantham]

 Thanks Martin for additional info about Shanklin's role

 I must admit I did not know that much about the issue coming into the discussion These boards can certainty push one's level of understanding beyond what it is likely to be without challenge from others

[Royell Storing]

That's not a statement made publicly. It's hearsay. Thompson claims that there were two witnesses there. However, both are now deceased and neither of them went on record to confirm Thompson's claim.

         If You are going to Reject the Tink Thompson interviews which support his landmark "Six Seconds In Dallas", You must also be Rejecting the multitude of Interviews that Richard B. Trask did for his Trumpeted "Pictures Of The Pain". "Pictures Of The Pain" previously having been regarded as the Bible of JFK Assassination Research Material.

[Tim Nickerson]

I never claimed it was a public statement. It has already been noted that Warren commissions lack of either Tomlinson, or Wright, being to testify to authenticity in front of them is not just a neutral position There is the 64 FBI memo claiming ?appears to be the same one? However, the FBI agent who is supposed to have gotten that admission, Bardwell Odum, and the Bureau?s own once-secret records, don?t back up #2011. Those records say only that neither Tomlinson nor Wright was able to identify the bullet in question, a comment that leaves the impression they saw no resemblance

Matt, Contrary to what you believe, the "Bureau?s own once-secret records" and CE-2011 do not conflict with one another. They say essentially the same thing. That being that neither Tomlinson nor Wright could positively identify the bullet in question.

Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.?  [Fig. 11] Unwilling to leave it at that, both authors paid Mr. Odum a visit in his Dallas home on November 21, 2002. The same alert, friendly man on the phone greeted us warmly and led us to a comfortable family room. To ensure no misunderstanding, we laid out before Mr. Odum all the relevant documents and read aloud from them.

Again, Mr. Odum said that he had never had any bullet related to the Kennedy assassination in his possession, whether during the FBI?s investigation in 1964 or at any other time. Asked whether he might have forgotten the episode, Mr. Odum remarked that he doubted he would have ever forgotten investigating so important a piece of evidence. But even if he had done the work, and later forgotten about it, he said he would certainly have turned in a ?302? report covering something that important

When interviewed by Aguilar and Thompson, Odum was well in his 80s and over four decades had passed since his time investigating the assassination. I suggest to you that his memory was questionable at best. Anyway, it's of no real importance. If the memo had reported positive identifications of the bullet from Tomlinson and Wright then it might be worth the attention that it has received from CTs.

In regard to the two Secret Service agents who were the other two individuals in the chain of custody

A declassified record, however, offers some corroboration for what CE 2011 reported about Secret Service Agents Johnsen and Rowley. A memo from the FBI?s Dallas field office dated 6/24/64 reported that, ?ON JUNE TWENTYFOUR INSTANT RICHARD E. JOHNSEN, AND JAMES ROWLEY, CHIEF ? ADVISED SA ELMER LEE TODD, WFO, THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO INDENTIFY RIFLE BULLET C ONE

Neither Johnsen nor Rowley had scratched their marks on the bullet when they had possession of it. That's why they were unable to positively identify it. If Johnsen and Rowley were needed to establish a chain of custody, then their respective letters would suffice. Johnsen's letter was attached to the envelope that contained the bullet that Elmer Todd handed over to Robert Frazier. Both Todd and Frazier placed their marks on the bullet. That mark placed by Todd enabled him to positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet that he received from Rowley. Frazier also positively identified the bullet while testifying under oath before the Warren Commission.

 

Hearsay is generally a term reserved for a courtroom I see no reason to call FBI reports little more than hearsay as well, but in this case there is evidence for wholesale fabrication on the part of the FBI as opposed to the research of Thompson It seems pretty likely that Wright was aware of the story by Josiah Thompson and one would assume would have protested if he had been misquoted

Investigative reports written by official law enforcement agents can hardly be equated with a book written years later by an author with a conspiratorial mindset.

I am all for people being under oath, recorded or any manner of verifying statements But when there is a lack of any evidence to support a claim, simple interviews do have significance

Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.
Mr. EISENBERG - Does that have your mark on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it does.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

As you can see, in the case of CE-399, there really isn't a lack of evidence though, is there?

[Tim Nickerson]

         If You are going to Reject the Tink Thompson interviews which support his landmark "Six Seconds In Dallas", You must also be Rejecting the multitude of Interviews that Richard B. Trask did for his Trumpeted "Pictures Of The Pain". "Pictures Of The Pain" previously having been regarded as the Bible of JFK Assassination Research Material.

I think that all of those interviews given years later are worth consideration. Even Tink Thompson's. However, one should be wary of attempting to build a case with them.

[Royell Storing]

I think that all of those interviews given years later are worth consideration. Even Tink Thompson's. However, one should be wary of attempting to build a case with them.

     Thanks for clearing this up. You may Now proceed with your self proclaimed Cherry Picking research endeavors.