Prayer Woman

[John Iacoletti]

How do you know that the guy on the steps talking with Calvery isn't someone who just happens to look like Lovelady?

Hoo boy.  Two can use that line of reasoning.

How do you know the figure near Lovelady isn't someone who just happens to be wearing something that might have a stripe?

[John Iacoletti]

It should be pretty easy for you to type in the search term "Stella" or "Native" (as in Native American) to find my research on Jacob, Holt, and Simmons,

Well, I found this thread, and you lost me right out of the starting gate with this graphic.



You then go on to say that the dark-skinned woman can't be Calvery, but she might be Stella Jacob who was Native-American.  (never mind the fact that she looks more African-American).

But how do you even know these are the same 3 people?

[John Iacoletti]

Next, I turn to your argument that this is actually Gloria Calvery in Zapruder (the tall woman on the right):



And you base this on a figure seen in the Betzner photo:



(however, you don't really explain how you know it's Calvery in Betzner either)....

Then having claimed that this is Calvery and that she is standing two people away from a woman in a white dress and a white scarf, therefore the woman on the steps in Darnell must necessarily be the same woman-in-white, and therefore the woman near her on the steps in black must also necessarily be Calvery.

Is that a fair synopsis?

My question:

Is there any particular reason to think that the woman in white (who you surmised was Karan Hicks or Carol Reed - because they said they watched the motorcade with Calvery), remained in the company of the woman in black?

[Thomas Graves]

So you are unable or unwilling to summarize how you identified Calvery in the Z film.

But I should just accept that you are right.

John,

I already have, at this Forum and at the JFK Assassination Debate-Education Forum (do you ever go there?), but you've worn me out, now, due to your refusing to understand the combination of factors involved in my and Sandy's and Brian's methodology, and your contrarian mindset, and your incessant nitpicking.

No, I don't expect you to blindly accept that I am right, but I would hope that you would read with an open mind what Sandy and I have posted about Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, Sharon Simmons, and about Gloria Calvery and her motorcade-watching group (including the "Woman All In White").

And I wish that you would take into consideration the fact that Brian publically "ate crow" when he posted that he'd recently spoken with Calvery's son on the phone, and that he (the son) said that his mother could be seen in fhe "Butler photo" (sic; the Betzner-3 photo).

-- Tommy 

[John Iacoletti]

I already have, at this Forum and at the JFK Assassination Debate-Education Forum (do you ever go there?), but you've worn me out, now, due to your refusing to understand the combination of factors involved in my and Sandy's and Brian's methodology, and your contrarian mindset, and your incessant nitpicking.

Questioning your assumptions is not just "nitpicking".

No, I don't expect you to blindly accept that I am right, but I would hope that you would read with an open mind what Sandy and I have posted about Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, Sharon Simmons, and about Gloria Calvery and her motorcade-watching group (including the "Woman All In White").

I did read it with an open mind and I assume that I summarized your argument correctly because you didn't correct me.  Now let's assume for the sake of argument that Calvery's son really did correctly identify Calvery in Betzner (and who called it "Butler"?).  How are you certain that tall-woman in Zapruder is the same person as glasses-woman in Betzner?

Also, I don't know why you're expecting anyone on this forum to be familiar with what goes on at a different forum.  I'm getting really tired of "it's been proven over there" arguments with no links or quotes provided.  If you can't present the proof here for discussion then why are you discussing it here to begin with?

[Michael Walton]

For the above, I'm going to go out on a limb here and state:

** There's a woman all in white climbing the lower steps
** To her left is a black scarved woman; she appears to be talking to the person in front of her
** The person in front of her and on a higher step appears to be bald because of the over-exposed head; you can just make out a pattern on his shirt - I'm guessing this is Lovelady simply because he was there seconds before leaning and watching when his photo was taken by Altgens
** The cop is getting closer to that vicinity as he continues to run

If that is Lovelady on the steps, then he can't be one of the two guys down on the street because you can also see the cop briefly running in that clip

That's the way I see this.  What it all means is a whole other question.

[Tom Scully]

Right.  Lovelady could be the only possible guy with a bald spot.  Oh, except the guy with the bald spot in the Darnell clip.

The only reason you're not "entertaining" me is because it would become readily apparent how much of your "proofs" are ridiculous handwaving.  You can't answer the questions, so you just claim it's already been proven.  That's exactly what WC apologists do.

Let's hear the interview.  Given how you lied about what Rosa said about LHO with a Pepsi, and lied about things that Debra Conway said about you, I don't trust a damn thing you claim about what people say.

What a compelling proof.   

So bald spot proves Lovelady and sweater proves Calvery.  You're a hoot.  Show me a short-length sweater in Darnell's black-blob-person to begin with.  Your "skill" involves imagining things in blurry images.

Questioning your assumptions is not just "nitpicking".

I did read it with an open mind and I assume that I summarized your argument correctly because you didn't correct me.  Now let's assume for the sake of argument that Calvery's son really did correctly identify Calvery in Betzner (and who called it "Butler"?).  How are you certain that tall-woman in Zapruder is the same person as glasses-woman in Betzner?

Also, I don't know why you're expecting anyone on this forum to be familiar with what goes on at a different forum.  I'm getting really tired of "it's been proven over there" arguments with no links or quotes provided.  If you can't present the proof here for discussion then why are you discussing it here to begin with?

If memory serves me, I recall from attending Italian language classes that "Iacoletti" in the folklore of the countryside
translates colloquially as "troll slayer"....

Thank you for your service, John, pulling a shift here on a long holiday weekend. You are really going the extra
mile in this thread!

- "Blue Coated Guy" in the Parking Lot 

[Thomas Graves]

Questioning your assumptions is not just "nitpicking".

I did read it with an open mind and I assume that I summarized your argument correctly because you didn't correct me. Now let's assume for the sake of argument that Calvery's son really did correctly identify Calvery in Betzner (and who called it "Butler"?).  How are you certain that tall-woman in Zapruder is the same person as glasses-woman in Betzner?

Also, I don't know why you're expecting anyone on this forum to be familiar with what goes on at a different forum.  I'm getting really tired of "it's been proven over there" arguments with no links or quotes provided.  If you can't present the proof here for discussion then why are you discussing it here to begin with?

John,

I'm glad you referred to the tall woman we've been talking about in Betzner-3 as "glasses woman," because Gloria Calvery's ever-present glasses are hard to make out in that photo. (Perhaps you did that because you didn't want to admit that she's the only woman in the blowup you provided who's wearing a "black" blouse or sweater and a "black" headscarf?)

Regardless, let me ask you a question:

Are you familiar with the names John Templin, Ernest Brandt, and Jean Newman?  (They were probably the only three people who were correctly identified -- by Thierry "Fake News" Speth, Don Roberdeau, and Robin Unger -- in the portion of the Z-film that we're concerned with here.)

(I'll try to post a Dallas newspaper article about Templin and Brandt to freshen your memory.)

To be continued ...

Suffice it to say that then-25-year-old John Templin is visible to the immediate left of your "glasses woman" in Betzner-3, and that both he and 37 year-old, fedora-wearing Brandt can be seen standing next to each other in Willis-5 (I'm typing this post on my android and at 69 years of age I'm somewhat techonogically challenged, so I'm afraid you're  going to look them up, yourself).

Of course you'll have to compare both of those photos with a Z-film frame to see that Templin was standing next to your "glasses woman," and that Brandt was standing next to him.

--Tommy 

Edit: Here's  that newspaper article.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtown-dallas/2012/11/22/two-eyewitnesses-reunite-once-a-year-on-anniversary-of-kennedys-death