11.22 FBI Memo About an Secret Service Agent Finding a Bullet in the Limo

[Michael T. Griffith]

It isn't deceptive to people with common sense. I guess that leaves you out.

No whole bullet was found in the limo. Only bullet fragments. It doesn't require Sherlock Holmes to figure out that fragmented bullet was the one that struck JFK in the head. The two largest fragments had sufficient size and markings to be positively matched to the rifle found in the TSBD. Of course that means nothing to you, but again, people with common sense can figure out how significant that is.

This is just the kind of moronic word game internet trolls are fond of playing. Anybody who isn't anal can understand that fragmented bullet and bullet fragments mean the same thing. Again, that leaves you out. I used the term fragmented bullet to describe the fragments found in the limo and you chose the term misshapen bullet. The term I used is far more accurate. It refers to a bullet that was not in one piece. Your terminology implies what was found in the limo was still in one piece. It most certainly was not and you know it. Just more of your silly word games.

This just shows what a dishonest juvenile you are. No, your misuse of the term "fragmented bullet" is not "far more accurate" than my fact-based term "misshapen bullet."   

The only "silly word game" here is your misleading use of the term "fragmented bullet." Two fragments that make up less than half the mass of a bullet are not a "fragmented bullet." But you can't even muster up the maturity and honesty to admit this self-evident fact. 

The only time it would be valid to use the term "fragmented bullet" would be in a case when a bullet fragmented and when all of the bullet's fragments were recovered. The two limo fragments do not even come close to meeting this requirement.

I see you are also still peddling the dubious talking point that the limo fragments were "positively matched to the rifle found in the TSBD [uh-huh, through the disputed method of ballistic matching]." Yeah, never mind that NAA testing found that those fragments could have come from other bullets besides the ones Oswald used; never mind that no chain of evidence was cooked up for those fragments until several weeks later; never mind that ballistic matching has come under increasing attack from the scientific community; never mind that ballistic matching has been found to be unreliable in a number of cases; and never mind that those fragments are more severely bent than any of the fragments from the WC's headshot wound-ballistics test.

Yeah, just never mind those facts, right?

The only reading of the FBI memo that makes any sense is to read it as a reference to the misshapen bullet that Chiefs Mills and Martinell found and handed over to Dr. Young at the autopsy. No FBI or SS agent ever claimed to have found a bullet in JFK's limo while it was being transported on the Lockheed C-130 military cargo plane from Dallas to DC or when the limo was in the White House garage, and no subsequent FBI or SS memo identified the two limo fragments as the "bullet" mentioned in the 11/22/1963 FBI memo.

[John Corbett]

This just shows what a dishonest juvenile you are. No, your misuse of the term "fragmented bullet" is not "far more accurate" than my fact-based term "misshapen bullet." 

Explain why.

The only "silly word game" here is your misleading use of the term "fragmented bullet." Two fragments that make up less than half the mass of a bullet are not a "fragmented bullet." But you can't even muster up the maturity and honesty to admit this self-evident fact.

The only thing self-evident is that your are playing games with semantics. CE399 lost a few tiny fragments of lead from its core yet is still called a bullet. How much material has to be missing from a bullet before it stops being a bullet?

The only time it would be valid to use the term "fragmented bullet" would be in a case when a bullet fragmented and when all of the bullet's fragments were recovered. The two limo fragments do not even come close to meeting this requirement.

So you have appointed yourself the semantics arbiter.

I see you are also still peddling the dubious talking point that the limo fragments were "positively matched to the rifle found in the TSBD [uh-huh, through the disputed method of ballistic matching]." Yeah, never mind that NAA testing found that those fragments could have come from other bullets besides the ones Oswald used; never mind that no chain of evidence was cooked up for those fragments until several weeks later; never mind that ballistic matching has come under increasing attack from the scientific community; never mind that ballistic matching has been found to be unreliable in a number of cases; and never mind that those fragments are more severely bent than any of the fragments from the WC's headshot wound-ballistics test.

What the hell does NAA testing have to do with matching a bullet to a rifle? They are two entirely different processes. Ballistics matching has long been accepted as valid evidence by our courts and VSA has not, yet you treat the latter as if it is empirical evidence and dismiss the former which has long been accepted by our criminal courts. Of course you do. You're a silly JFKA CT. It's what you do.

Here are several articles explaining the lack of validity of VSA:

https://liedetectortest.com/alert/voice-stress-analysis-vsa-why-it-is-not-a-lie-detector
https://scienceinsights.org/what-a-voice-stress-analysis-test-actually-measures/
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/221502.pdf

Even proponents of VSA recognize questions must be structured correctly for the test to have validity:

https://www.cji.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Using_Technology_to_Separate_Truth_from_Lies.pdf

"The questions asked during a CVSA exam can not be formulated haphazardly.  The need for appropriately structured questions was noted by John Larson in the early 1900s, and its importance is still recognized (National Research Council, 2003, p. 296).  In the NITV operating manual, at the beginning of the chapter entitled “Question Formulation & Test Formats”, they have a warning that states “If the question formulation criteria outlined in this chapter are not followed, errors in analysis of charts will [emphasis added] be made” "

The questions Oswald responded to were not at all structured and therefore of no use for VSA purposes.

I do want to correct a misstatement I made earlier. I said the Justice Department had rejected VSA testing. It was actually a report by the National Institute of Justice. My bad.

Yeah, just never mind those facts, right?

You don't seem to know the difference between factoids and facts.

The only reading of the FBI memo that makes any sense is to read it as a reference to the misshapen bullet that Chiefs Mills and Martinell found and handed over to Dr. Young at the autopsy. No FBI or SS agent ever claimed to have found a bullet in JFK's limo while it was being transported on the Lockheed C-130 military cargo plane from Dallas to DC or when the limo was in the White House garage, and no subsequent FBI or SS memo identified the two limo fragments as the "bullet" mentioned in the 11/22/1963 FBI memo.

Neither Mills nor Martinell said they turned a bullet over to Dr. Young. None of the prosectors reported receiving a bullet during the autopsy. Apparently, that was a misunderstanding on the part of Young or a false memory developed over several decades. It would make no sense at all for such evidence to be turned over to the medical team. A bullet or bullet fragment should have been turned over to the FBI crime lab for analysis and that is what was done with the bullet fragments found in the limo. Only bone fragments were sent to Bethesda and that is how it should have been.

[Royell Storing]

The FBI did not even enter the case until Saturday when LBJ ordered them to take over the investigation from the DPD. The order was of questionable legality given the assassination at the time was a state crime, not federal. It was obvious from the presser where Chief Curry announced the decision he was not at all happy about it.

   WRONG !

[Benjamin Cole]

The FBI memo is dated 11.22.

The Autopsy Night (November 22, 1963): During the postmortem examination at Bethesda Naval Hospital, Dr. Young dispatched two Navy petty officers to inspect the presidential limousine for bone fragments. (Young would later say they found a whole slug)

I think the Dr. Young episode is too late in the day to be captured in the 11.22 FBI memo.

I find it difficult to read this as referring to Landis. Landis said he didn't tell anyone about his finding of a bullet, and he said he took the bullet and a put it on a stretcher in Parkland. The Landis bullet would not have been reported as having been found in the limo.

However, the memo could be referring to the bullet that Chiefs Mills and Martinell found in the limo and brought to Dr. Young at the autopsy, since their search was allowed by the SS agents in the White House garage.

It makes more sense to me that the memo is referring to the bullet that Dr. Young said was found in the limo and brought to him at the autopsy.

No SS agent claimed to find a bullet in the limo. Two modest-sized bullet fragments were found in the limo after it arrived at the White House garage, but the SS said nothing about finding a bullet in the limo. The two fragments amounted to less than half the mass of a standard rifle bullet.

This is a very important memo because it definitely establishes that an extra bullet was found in the limo, a bullet that the lone-gunman theory cannot accommodate.

[Mark A. Oblazney]

   WRONG !

well, John……. don’t try to explain yourself out of this one.  I’m going to notify the authorities about this.  Someone HAS to DO something !  Which media do you suggest i go to? Mother Jones ? Brietfart ? lol

[John Corbett]

well, John……. don’t try to explain yourself out of this one.  I’m going to notify the authorities about this.  Someone HAS to DO something !  Which media do you suggest i go to? Mother Jones ? Brietfart ? lol

I have to give Royell some credit for this one. I was responding to a poster who wondered if the FBI was present at Parkland. I wrote:

"The FBI did not even enter the case until Saturday".

I worded that badly. I should have said they didn't take over the investigation until Saturday.
Siebert and O'Neill were present at the autopsy Friday night so the FBI had entered the investigation at that point. I've never seen any story that indicated the FBI had agents at Parkland.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

I have to give Royell some credit for this one. I was responding to a poster who wondered if the FBI was present at Parkland. I wrote:

"The FBI did not even enter the case until Saturday".

I worded that badly. I should have said they didn't take over the investigation until Saturday.
Siebert and O'Neill were present at the autopsy Friday night so the FBI had entered the investigation at that point. I've never seen any story that indicated the FBI had agents at Parkland.

James Hosty gives a relatively detailed account of what he and the FBI did immediately after the shooting. He said that he and three other agents were ordered to go to Parkland. He arrived there but then was recalled back to the office before going in. At least one agent, Vincent Drain, remained at Parkland and informed the office about JFK's death. Remember that Hoover was receiving information from his Dallas agents. He was the first to tell RFK about the shooting and JFK's death. I'll guess it was Drain's report.

Here's Hosty in "Assignment Oswald": "Kyle Clark, the Assistant Special Agent in Charge (ASAC) of the Dallas field office, was on [the car radio]. He was saying that Kennedy was at Parkland Hospital and was critically injured. Clark wanted four agents at Parkland immediately; once there, they were to stand by for further orders. I grabbed my radio mike. “This is 7392. I’m less than a mile from the hospital. I will respond to Parkland immediately and stand by for further orders.”

After returning to the office: "I hurried into the squad room on the eleventh floor and scanned the room for [his supervisor Ken] Howe. His eyes locked on mine. “Hosty! Come here,” he said. He was holding a sheaf of papers; it looked like a Bureau teletype report. Though Howe was in his fifties, he didn’t have a single gray hair, which made him look considerably younger than his years. While I had trouble keeping my weight down, Howe was a trim and fit six-foot man. “What’s up?” I asked. “This teletype just came in from Washington,” Howe said. “Headquarters is assuming that right-wingers are responsible for the attack on the president. They want all offices to identify, locate, and bring in all right-wing extremists, and they want it done right now. Hosty, you’re the only agent in this office who monitors these damn right-wingers, so get moving on this, and for God’s sake let’s find this guy-”