Author Topic: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test  (Read 406 times)

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Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Reply #7 on: Today at 05:53:39 AM »
MTG--

Thanks for posting.

While I think LHO was likely a good shot (he did well enough on marksmen tests in the Marines), and the M-C is an under-rated rifle (it was manufactured to military specs to be accurate to 200 meters)...I have always had reservations about the rapidity, or cadence, of shots on 11.22.

The "bang....bang-bang" sequence cannot be explained by a single-shot-per-bolt-action rifle.

It is true, various people trying to dupe the JFKA shooting have failed, even skilled marksmen.

Stray thought: People deep inside the TSBD heard three shots.

People outside heard three or four shots. Of course, Gov, JBC said bullets were entering the cab of the limo as if from "automatic weapons" fire, and Secret Service agent Kellerman said the shots came in a "flurry."

That certainly does not line up with a lone gunsel operating a M-C.

The HSCA-1979 concluded there was likely a conspiracy to perp the JFKA.

That is probably the best summation.






Few books on the assassination discuss the HSCA’s rifle test, which also failed to duplicate Oswald’s alleged shooting performance. The test involved four expert riflemen who fired at stationary target boards. Not one of the riflemen scored two hits in three shots.

HSCA chief counsel G. Robert Blakey wrote a memorandum that described the test and its results. The test was conducted in March 1979. The riflemen in the test were four of the top marksmen from the District of Columbia Police Department. All four had prior military experience, and all four had additional “extensive” civilian training in using rifles or handguns (8 HSCA 184).

The riflemen fired a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle at three stationary target boards from a 20-foot tower. The target boards were placed 143 feet, 165 feet, and 265 feet from the tower. Each target board had a silhouette that portrayed a human body from waist to head. Each rifleman fired two series of three shots. It should be noted that they used the iron sights for all shots. The riflemen were allowed to practice working the rifle’s bolt for several minutes. A shot was counted as a hit (“kill”) if it landed anywhere in the silhouette (8 HSCA 184 n 3).
 
Blakey and Deputy Chief Counsel Gary Cornwell also fired shots in the test, but they only fired one series of two shots (8 HSCA 184). Blakey and Cornwell apparently merely point-aimed, i.e., they merely pointed the rifle in the direction of the target and fired.

Blakey noted that the Carcano rifle “was characteristically difficult to operate, due to its poor basic design” (8 HSCA 184 n 2). Yet, many lone-gunman theorists still portray the rifle as an outstanding and reliable weapon.

The purpose of the rifle test was to see if a Carcano rifle could be fired three times in 1.7 seconds or less between any two shots while scoring at least two hits. As mentioned, any shot that landed anywhere in the target silhouette was counted as a hit (“kill”), thus tripling or quadrupling the size of the target area compared to the area that the supposed lone gunman allegedly hit two out of three times in 8.6-9.6 seconds (and two out of two times in 5.6 seconds).

With the four experts each firing two series of three shots, and with Blakey and Cornwell each firing one series of two shots, a total of 10 series were fired.

Significantly, four of the 10 series took over seven seconds to fire. As for the other series, two of them took over six seconds to fire; two of them took over five seconds to fire; and two of them took less than five seconds to fire (8 HSCA 185).

Blakey tried to put the best face he could on the results of the test. He said the test showed that the shooting feat was “apparently difficult, but not impossible,” but he admitted that none of the riflemen had managed to perform the feat:

It is apparently difficult, but not impossible – at least with only minimal practice with the firearm used – to fire three shots, at least two of which score “kills,” with an elapsed time of 1.7 seconds or less between any two shots, even though, in the limited testing conducted, no shooter achieved this degree of proficiency. (8 HSCA 185, emphasis added)

In a footnote, Blakey reported that the riflemen’s first shot in all the series was usually a hit, “since there was no time pressure imposed in aiming the rifle in preparation for that shot” (8 HSCA 185 n 4). Yet, according to the lone-gunman theory, the supposed single assassin missed both JFK and the entire huge limousine with his first shot.


Rockefeller Foundation fellow and investigative journalist Henry Hurt commented on the HSCA rifle test as follows:

Years later, staff members of the House Select Committee on Assassinations undertook to settle once and for all the question of whether the Mannlicher-Carcano could have done the job. At a firing range outside Washington, HSCA Chief Counsel G. Robert Blakey met with four of the top rifle marksmen from the District of Columbia Police Department. All had prior military experience.

A representative from the National Archives was present with the infamous Oswald rifle. After some testing, it was clear its condition was too poor to permit firing. A similar weapon was produced, one that had been used in earlier tests in Dealey Plaza.

The specific purpose of the test, according to Blakey, was to see if it was possible for Oswald to fire two shots in less than 1.7 seconds. (The HSCA acoustics studies had determined this as the amount of time between the two closest shots.)

The results were, at best, mixed. Blakey reported to the committee that such shooting could be done. He went on to explain:

"It is apparently difficult but not impossible . . . to fire three shots, at least two of which score 'kills,' with an elapsed time of 1.7 seconds or less between any two shots, even though, in the limited testing conducted, no shooter achieved this degree of proficiency.”

Echoes of the Warren Commission? What Blakey is saying is that while it is not impossible to duplicate Oswald's feat, none of the experts was able to do it. Moreover, the HSCA expert marksmen, like the experts in 1964, used stationary targets and were given unlimited time to prepare for their first shot.

The fact remains that, to this day, no expert marksman has ever duplicated Oswald's shooting skills in any official test or demonstration. (Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, 1985, p. 101, emphasis added)


The HSCA’s rifle test also tended to confirm what FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier told the WC about how rapidly the alleged murder weapon could be fired with any degree of accuracy: Frazier said 2.3 seconds per shot was the fastest the rifle could be fired with some degree of accuracy.

When I shared a copy of my book A Comforting Lie with a co-worker, he said he was surprised to learn about the HSCA’s investigation and its conclusions. He said he’d heard of the Warren Commission but had never heard of the HSCA. This is why my chapter on the HSCA is titled “The Forgotten Investigation: The House Select Committee on Assassinations.”

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Reply #8 on: Today at 06:29:54 AM »
...you cannot use the iron sights on a Carcano [rifle] if the scope is mounted on the rifle.

Wrong:


Online Mark A. Oblazney

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Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Reply #9 on: Today at 08:03:45 AM »
“I would expect to flunk after being graded by a dunce like you”
—————-John Corbett, on Michael Griffith (aka the A.I. guy, coz’ he can’t think)

lol
« Last Edit: Today at 08:10:08 AM by Mark A. Oblazney »

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Reply #10 on: Today at 12:49:01 PM »

https://i.postimg.cc/SKygH7hR/CE-858.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/MHj519yb/Lattimer-two.jpg

Humm, I wonder why you didn't show any photos of the two limo fragments, CE 567 and CE 569. Perhaps because you knew people would see that none of the fragments you pictured were deformed in the way the two limo fragments were deformed? Not one of the fragments you've pictured has a substantial part of its body peeled back by virtually 180 degrees.

Here is a link to some high-quality color photos of CE 567 and CE 569:

https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2019/12/kennedy-assassination-bullets-preserved-digital-form

You'll notice that both fragments have a part of the body peeled back by virtually 180 degrees.

I see that David Von Pein has posted a photo of a Carcano rifle with a scope mounted to the left of the barrel that shows an unobstructed, clear view of the iron sights.

I have changed my mind on this issue. After viewing DVP's photo, I examined more photos of the alleged murder weapon that provided a top or top-side view. These photos show that the Ordnance Optics 4x18 scope was mounted to the left of center of the rifle's barrel, which would have enabled the gunman to use the iron sights if he had wanted to do so. My previous position was based on two sources on rifles that said you cannot use the iron sights of a Carcano rifle if a scope is mounted on it, but in rechecking those sources I realized they were assuming the scope was center-mounted. 

So, this explains why the WC's rifle test included one series of shots fired with the iron sights and why the HSCA's rifle test used the iron sights for all shot series.

Of course, this is really a moot point because using the iron sights would have made the shooting feat even more difficult, as Marine Corps weapons expert MSG James Zahm explained to the WC.   
« Last Edit: Today at 12:51:30 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online John Corbett

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Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Reply #11 on: Today at 05:05:37 PM »
“I would expect to flunk after being graded by a dunce like you”
—————-John Corbett, on Michael Griffith (aka the A.I. guy, coz’ he can’t think)

lol

I'm going to remember your line and might recycle it at an appropriate moment.

Online John Corbett

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Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Reply #12 on: Today at 05:30:14 PM »
Humm, I wonder why you didn't show any photos of the two limo fragments, CE 567 and CE 569. Perhaps because you knew people would see that none of the fragments you pictured were deformed in the way the two limo fragments were deformed? Not one of the fragments you've pictured has a substantial part of its body peeled back by virtually 180 degrees.

Here is a link to some high-quality color photos of CE 567 and CE 569:

https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2019/12/kennedy-assassination-bullets-preserved-digital-form

You'll notice that both fragments have a part of the body peeled back by virtually 180 degrees.

What kind of a moron would expect two fragmenting bullets to look alike? The answer is so obvious that I won't say it.
Quote

I see that David Von Pein has posted a photo of a Carcano rifle with a scope mounted to the left of the barrel that shows an unobstructed, clear view of the iron sights.

I have changed my mind on this issue. After viewing DVP's photo, I examined more photos of the alleged murder weapon that provided a top or top-side view. These photos show that the Ordnance Optics 4x18 scope was mounted to the left of center of the rifle's barrel, which would have enabled the gunman to use the iron sights if he had wanted to do so. My previous position was based on two sources on rifles that said you cannot use the iron sights of a Carcano rifle if a scope is mounted on it, but in rechecking those sources I realized they were assuming the scope was center-mounted. 

DUH! I tried to tell you in my post last night that the scope was offset allowing the iron sights to be used with the scope in place. I'm sure I wouldn't have had to tell Tony Marsh. He had his faults but he had command of details such as this. I'm surprised that someone who has read as much as you have about the JFKA didn't already know that.
Quote

So, this explains why the WC's rifle test included one series of shots fired with the iron sights and why the HSCA's rifle test used the iron sights for all shot series.

If Blakey had any common sense, they would have run tests with both the scope and the iron sights. He was operating under the premises that the acoustics evidence was valid and that Oswald had fired three shots from the sniper's nest, killing JFK with his third shot which according the acoustics analysis would have been the fourth overall shot. The fact that the acoustics team determined Oswald fired the first two shots 1.7 seconds apart with a bolt action rifle should have made him question the validity of the acoustics analysis. Like most CTs, Blakey was so desperate to find that JFK died at the hands of a conspiracy, he left his common sense behind and tried to force fit his beliefs to the evidence.
Quote

Of course, this is really a moot point because using the iron sights would have made the shooting feat even more difficult, as Marine Corps weapons expert MSG James Zahm explained to the WC.

As found, it was determined that the scope on Oswald's rifle aimed high and a little to the right. The iron sights were fixed and zeroed for 200 meters which means at 88 yards and less, it too would have aimed high. As the WC pointed out, the shooter would need to aim high to lead a moving target. Whether Oswald took this into account or just got lucky we will never know. Although I believe he would have used the scope, I cannot rule out the possibility he could have used the fixed sights. Only Oswald knew the answer to that question. I can say from my personal experience as a casual recreational shooter, using the scope makes taking aim much simpler. With the fixed sights, you not only have to center the front sight evenly between the rear sights but you also have to align the front sight based on the distance of the shot. If your target is at the same distance as your rifle is zeroed for, the front sight should be level with the rear sights. If shooting at a shorter distance, you aim low and at a greater distance, you aim high. With a scope, you can adjust it to the distance of your target. Then all you have to do is put the crosshairs on your target, control your breathing, and put a slow steady squeeze on the trigger and let the gun fire when it wants to. If you try to force the gun to fire by pulling the trigger, the tendency is to shoot low and to the right (for a right handed shooter).
« Last Edit: Today at 05:32:27 PM by John Corbett »