The Miracle On Elm Street

[Jack Nessan]

I had to start this thread in response to something a Nutter posted on another thread insinuating that Arnold Rowland made up seeing the man with the rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building.
Of all the crazy things the Warren Commission has forced Nutters to believe this has to be right up there.

Barbara Rowland confirms her husband's account of seeing the man with the rifle at the southwestern end of the 6th floor of the TSBD building:

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson’s visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book
Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn’t see the man, because I didn’t know exactly what window he was talking about at first. And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped
back, because I didn’t see him.
Mr. BELIN. Which window was it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window.
Mr. BELIN. As you face the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the western part of the south side?
Mrs. ROWLAND. West.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.
Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband say to you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.
Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade.

In the immediate aftermath of the shooting Rowland ran around telling every law enforcement officer he could find about the man with the rifle. He told three or four officials about this man before he gave his affidavit:

"...We stood there for a time talking about the security measures that were being made for the president’s visit in view of the recent trouble when Mr. Adelai Stevenson had been a recent visitor to Dallas. It must have been 5 or 10 minutes later when we were just looking at the surrounding buildings when I looked up at the Texas Book...building and noticed that the second floor from the top had two adjoining windows which were open, and upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it.

He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service men.

This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair. In about 15 minutes President Kennedy passed the spot where we were standing and the motorcade had just turned west on Elm heading down the hill when I heard a noise which I thought to be a back fire."

To imagine that Rowland invented this sighting is beyond belief as it would require the almost miraculous coincidence of him inventing a man (whose description closely matches that of other eyewitnesses) carrying a scoped, high-powered rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building.
What are the chances Rowland making up a white, slender male carrying a scoped, high-powered rifle on the 6th floor and it turns out that's exactly what happened?

ROLL UP, ROLL UP NUTTERS.
LET'S HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS MATTER.
DON'T BE SHY.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE MIRACLE ON ELM STREET?

Good post Dan, you almost nailed it.  But maybe this time, explain why Arnold Rowland is to be believed as a reliable witness. It is well known what he said. Point out the part he gets right. The problem is he gets the description wrong. Weren’t you able to read all of this in the post you were referring to? Didn’t you understand it?
Instead of making grand proclamations, explain how his description of the man with a rifle framed in the 29 inch tall open window, which started 14 inches off the floor, is to be believed. Specter and the WC Panel knew he was full of it. I bet they were not impressed with him wasting their time.
Sorrels didn’t buy into Arnolds description of the man with the rifle having been standing 15 feet back into the room so Arnold moved the man up to 3 feet. Even Barbara noted he changed the distance. You probably do not have an issue with Rowland using a 30 odd size six caliber rifle, do you also have a 30 odd size six caliber rifle like Rowlands? Specter was enjoying himself asking him questions knowing he made up the answers. Maybe Arnold making things up is the kindred spirit you feel for Rowland. Even Gerald Ford was making fun of him by the end of it.

With such a great witness, it is not surprising he is the poster child for your whole conspiracy story. He lived in the same fantasy world.
The best part is his physical description of the man.

Mr. ROWLAND - He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

HUH
-----------
To add insult to injury he was not sure if he was a white man or negro.

Arnold doesn't realize it, because Arnold admits he was never in the TSBD. His estimate of the height of the man with the rifle would be one to two feet tall

Mr. SPECTER - Could you give us an estimate on his height?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.
Mr. SPECTER - Was he a white man or a Negro or what?
Mr. ROWLAND - Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

According to Arnold’s description of the man standing next to the window, he was less than 43 inches tall. Actually a couple of feet short of 43 inches. It seems it would not be hard to locate him. You just had to look down. Way down.
The rifle is 42 inches and the actual window opening is 29 inches tall. Yet he can see all of the rifle and two to three feet above his head. 


Nobody was buying that man with the rifle was 15 feet back in the room so Arnold had to move him closer.

Mr. SPECTER - And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND - He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.
Mr. SPECTER - How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view.

LHO was 69 inches tall. Again, the window opening was 29 inches reaching a maximum window opening height of 43 inches in which to see the gunman.

Mr. SPECTER - And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?
Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
Mr. SPECTER - Up to what point?
Mr. ROWLAND - Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.
Mr. SPECTER - So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see hi clear in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

No matter how badly you twist Rowland’s testimony, this is not ever going to be the smoking gun you are so desperately hoping to find.


Any new theories remotely relevant to the assassination? This one is the joke is on you, courtesy of Arnold Rowland.

[Dan O'meara]

Good post Dan, you almost nailed it.  But maybe this time, explain why Arnold Rowland is to be believed as a reliable witness. It is well known what he said. Point out the part he gets right. The problem is he gets the description wrong. Weren’t you able to read all of this in the post you were referring to? Didn’t you understand it?
Instead of making grand proclamations, explain how his description of the man with a rifle framed in the 29 inch tall open window, which started 14 inches off the floor, is to be believed. Specter and the WC Panel knew he was full of it. I bet they were not impressed with him wasting their time.
Sorrels didn’t buy into Arnolds description of the man with the rifle having been standing 15 feet back into the room so Arnold moved the man up to 3 feet. Even Barbara noted he changed the distance. You probably do not have an issue with Rowland using a 30 odd size six caliber rifle, do you also have a 30 odd size six caliber rifle like Rowlands? Specter was enjoying himself asking him questions knowing he made up the answers. Maybe Arnold making things up is the kindred spirit you feel for Rowland. Even Gerald Ford was making fun of him by the end of it.

With such a great witness, it is not surprising he is the poster child for your whole conspiracy story. He lived in the same fantasy world.
The best part is his physical description of the man.

Mr. ROWLAND - He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

HUH
-----------
To add insult to injury he was not sure if he was a white man or negro.

Arnold doesn't realize it, because Arnold admits he was never in the TSBD. His estimate of the height of the man with the rifle would be one to two feet tall

Mr. SPECTER - Could you give us an estimate on his height?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.
Mr. SPECTER - Was he a white man or a Negro or what?
Mr. ROWLAND - Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

According to Arnold’s description of the man standing next to the window, he was less than 43 inches tall. Actually a couple of feet short of 43 inches. It seems it would not be hard to locate him. You just had to look down. Way down.
The rifle is 42 inches and the actual window opening is 29 inches tall. Yet he can see all of the rifle and two to three feet above his head. 


Nobody was buying that man with the rifle was 15 feet back in the room so Arnold had to move him closer.

Mr. SPECTER - And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND - He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.
Mr. SPECTER - How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view.

LHO was 69 inches tall. Again, the window opening was 29 inches reaching a maximum window opening height of 43 inches in which to see the gunman.

Mr. SPECTER - And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?
Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
Mr. SPECTER - Up to what point?
Mr. ROWLAND - Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.
Mr. SPECTER - So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see hi clear in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

No matter how badly you twist Rowland’s testimony, this is not ever going to be the smoking gun you are so desperately hoping to find.


Any new theories remotely relevant to the assassination? This one is the joke is on you, courtesy of Arnold Rowland.

Just to have it clearly on the record, Jack - Do you believe Rowland invented seeing a man with a rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building?
It's a yes/no thing.

[John Corbett]

I'm glad to see that not even you can quite swallow the WC line on this issue, which is really saying something.

I didn't take a position on this question because I have no way of knowing what Rowland saw and there is nothing the confirms or refutes what he claimed to see.

To imagine that Rowland guessed there was a slender, white male with a scoped, high-powered rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building moments before the assassination is too much for even you to accept.

Again, you are reading far more into my reply than was there. I would find Rowland a bit more credible if he had bothered to alert the nearest cop to what he claimed to have seen.

It is obviously the case Rowland saw this man, to suggest otherwise would have you replacing logic with the miraculous.

It would be quite easy for Rowland to make up this story AFTER the shooting. That's why I said he would be more believable had he told his story before the shots were fired, and also much more consequential. This is a perfect illustration of what I just told MTG in another thread on how I judge witnesses. If they are corroborated by other evidence, I believe them. If they are refuted by other evidence, I don't believe them. If they are neither corroborated nor refuted, which is the case with Rowland, I can only say their account MIGHT be true.

This made the WC's narrative even more difficult to construct - how is Oswald wandering around the 6th floor, "scouting possible shooting locations", without BRW noticing?
How is that possible?

That question assumes Oswald would have been walking around that floor at the time BRW was there.

And why is the man with the rifle wearing a shirt Oswald wasn't wearing that day, and didn't have in his possessions?

It hasn't been established Oswald was walking around and if he was, it hasn't been established what kind of shirt he was wearing.

And why is there a black man in the SN?

Not established.

And why isn't Bonnie Ray sat looking out of the closed third set of windows?

You seem to have misworded your question so it is hard to know what you meant. BRW is the only one who would have known why he chose the window he did.

Rowland's testimony was utterly devastating for the false narrative the WC Sham was trying to create so, rather than simply accepting the testimony of this witness, they took the unprecedented step of launching an FBI investigation into a private citizen with the express purpose of finding anything they could on him in order to nullify his testimony.
Luckily for the Warren Commission, Rowland felt the need to lie about how intelligent he was and this was enough to dismiss his witness statements regarding the man with the rifle and, more to the point, the black man in SN window who stayed there until around 12:25pm (around the same time BRW went down to the 5th floor).
It was a truly devious and underhand strategy.

There is absolutely nothing Rowland said that refutes the findings of the WC.

[Dan O'meara]

I didn't take a position on this question because I have no way of knowing what Rowland saw and there is nothing the confirms or refutes what he claimed to see.

 
There is nothing that confirms or refutes what he claimed to see??
Are you high?
Rowland claimed to see a slender white guy with a high-powered, scoped rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building in the minutes before the assassination...and you don't think there is anything to confirm or refute this claim!!
There was actually, IN REALITY, a slender white guy with a high-powered, scoped rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building...don't you think this confirms Rowland's claim? 

The things Nutters are forced to say, thanks to the deviousness of the Warren Commission, defy belief.

Again, you are reading far more into my reply than was there. I would find Rowland a bit more credible if he had bothered to alert the nearest cop to what he claimed to have seen.
It would be quite easy for Rowland to make up this story AFTER the shooting. That's why I said he would be more believable had he told his story before the shots were fired, and also much more consequential. This is a perfect illustration of what I just told MGT in another thread on how I judge witnesses. If they are corroborated by other evidence, I believe them. If they are refuted by other evidence, I don't believe them. If they are neither corroborated nor refuted, which is the case with Rowland, I can only say their account MIGHT be true.
That question assumes Oswald would have been walking around that floor at the time BRW was there.
It hasn't been established Oswald was walking around and if he was, it hasn't been established what kind of shirt he was wearing.
Not established.
You seem to have misworded your question so it is hard to know what you meant. BRW is the only one who would have known why he chose the window he did.
There is absolutely nothing Rowland said that refutes the findings of the WC.

Because you are so unfamiliar with the evidence you are unaware that Rowland did tell his story before the shots were fired. Your whole, childish argument disappears.
Rowland's observations are just a piece of the pattern of lies, manipulation, fabrication and omission the Warren Commission used to construct it's report.
Rowland's description of the man with the rifle contains key information confirmed by other eye-witnesses...information that also refutes the WC's Oswald-Did-It narrative.
But there's no point in telling you any of this.
Your undying love for the Warren Commission is creepy.

[Tim Nickerson]

I had to start this thread in response to something a Nutter posted on another thread insinuating that Arnold Rowland made up seeing the man with the rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building.
Of all the crazy things the Warren Commission has forced Nutters to believe this has to be right up there.

Barbara Rowland confirms her husband's account of seeing the man with the rifle at the southwestern end of the 6th floor of the TSBD building:

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson’s visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book
Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn’t see the man, because I didn’t know exactly what window he was talking about at first. And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped
back, because I didn’t see him.
Mr. BELIN. Which window was it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window.
Mr. BELIN. As you face the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the western part of the south side?
Mrs. ROWLAND. West.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.
Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband say to you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.
Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade.

In the immediate aftermath of the shooting Rowland ran around telling every law enforcement officer he could find about the man with the rifle. He told three or four officials about this man before he gave his affidavit:

"...We stood there for a time talking about the security measures that were being made for the president’s visit in view of the recent trouble when Mr. Adelai Stevenson had been a recent visitor to Dallas. It must have been 5 or 10 minutes later when we were just looking at the surrounding buildings when I looked up at the Texas Book...building and noticed that the second floor from the top had two adjoining windows which were open, and upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it.

He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service men.

This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair. In about 15 minutes President Kennedy passed the spot where we were standing and the motorcade had just turned west on Elm heading down the hill when I heard a noise which I thought to be a back fire."

To imagine that Rowland invented this sighting is beyond belief as it would require the almost miraculous coincidence of him inventing a man (whose description closely matches that of other eyewitnesses) carrying a scoped, high-powered rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building.
What are the chances Rowland making up a white, slender male carrying a scoped, high-powered rifle on the 6th floor and it turns out that's exactly what happened?

ROLL UP, ROLL UP NUTTERS.
LET'S HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS MATTER.
DON'T BE SHY.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE MIRACLE ON ELM STREET?

Where was Bonnie Ray at the time that Rowland saw the guy 15 feet inside the Southwest window of the 6th floor?

[John Corbett]

There is nothing that confirms or refutes what he claimed to see??
Are you high?
Rowland claimed to see a slender white guy with a high-powered, scoped rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building in the minutes before the assassination...and you don't think there is anything to confirm or refute this claim!!

He could have made that up from information that became public after the shooting. That doesn't establish he saw a gunman before the shooting and the fact he didn't alert a cop prior to the shooting makes his claim dubious.

There was actually, IN REALITY, a slender white guy with a high-powered, scoped rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building...don't you think this confirms Rowland's claim? 

No I don't for the reasons stated.

The things Nutters are forced to say, thanks to the deviousness of the Warren Commission, defy belief.

Your inability to think critically defies belief.

Because you are so unfamiliar with the evidence you are unaware that Rowland did tell his story before the shots were fired. Your whole, childish argument disappears.
Rowland's observations are just a piece of the pattern of lies, manipulation, fabrication and omission the Warren Commission used to construct it's report.
Rowland's description of the man with the rifle contains key information confirmed by other eye-witnesses...information that also refutes the WC's Oswald-Did-It narrative.
But there's no point in telling you any of this.
Your undying love for the Warren Commission is creepy.

Your gullibility knows no bounds.

[Duncan MacRae]

Arnold Rowland